@Tamiel:
This will be a point were many will diverge in opinions. I wasn't replying to you, but, just checking the last few pages, a lot of posters are talking about how Teach will steal One Piece from Luffy. By no means I am referring that One Piece is an abstract thing, but what is the worth of it as an object? We kinda have to discard the option of it being a weapon, thematically it would have to be something greater than the three ancient weapons, or getting a spin around that the weapons were made to counteract One Piece. So if not a weapon, what could it be that merits it being stolen. I am of the opinion that One Piece is a collection of treasure in addition to a lot of history being revealed and maybe the location of something extremely important. However, if Teach IS going to steal it, then for what purpose: it is not like everyone knows what One Piece is, or it even exists, so going around saying: "Hey look, i got the OP, I am the PK!" really amounts to nothing.
I don't think it can just be treasure and history though. Not they won't be present there, but those things don't really give the One Piece a fully unique identity since there is already treasure and Poneglyphs scattered across the world. Information is great, but it doesn't provide anything tangible to help change anything. It's only mental growth, and I think that while that is certainly important, can't be a satisfying or reasonable conclusion to how much the One Piece has been built-up.
If it's a significant item that can get anybody's attention even though they may have never even heard of it before, that can earn its owner the Pirate King title. A weapon can do that plenty, but that doesn't mean only a weapon can garner such attention. I can't offer any concrete answers as to what the One Piece will be, and I doubt that even someone like Greg has a clear idea on that front. But it just being a weapon goes against the unique hype of the Ancient Weapons if something more powerful than them exists, and what guys like Luffy, Shanks, and Roger stand for as honorable pirates. You question what how Teach would find anything else but a weapon valuable, but I retort that with what would Luffy, the man destined to become Pirate King, find a weapon useful for outside of a Final War coincidentally occurring after Raftel is located?
-This is where it start getting confusing. You are saying that Teach needs to get the OP to be Pirate King. So the definition of Pirate King globally is getting One Piece. While we have people like Luffy saying they just want to go anywhere they can. On the other hand, Blackbeard's definition seems to go along the lines of unparalleled power. A lot of this will be clearer as we delve deeper into the New World. As much as I don't want Blackbeard to show up after Whole Cake Island (because I prefer him going to Wano), if everyone has different opinions on what makes the PK, then, at least worldwide, if Teach is able to: take Whitebeard's position as an Emperor, kills Kaido (even though Luffy should be taking credit for that), kills Shanks AND gets an Ancient Weapon, I would not be surprised if people started considering him the pirate king. I mean you got rid of half your competition, acquired a weapon of extreme power, that should at least put you in the top of the game.
They would just call him the person closest to becoming Pirate King. Like what Whitebeard was. By both reaching Raftel and getting the One Piece (along with whatever function the One Piece might have), that alone is a testament to the resolve of Luffy's freedom and how nobody can inhibit what he wants to do. Also, the issue I have with what you're arguing for is that when you mention Luffy and Blackbeard's potential reasons for becoming Pirate King, you're only really covering HOW they would be Pirate King. What they use the title for, and why they wanted the title in the first place. That necessarily does not have to equate to WHY they're the Pirate King.
I personally find it more appealing to have until the last moment, the contrast between Luffy and Blackbeard shown. Including having two Pirate Kings fighting it out to cement which ideal and view point remains standing. I agree with you that Luffy fighting for freedom against Blackbeard also works. I see it as maybe a commentator seeing both of them in a stare off: "The man that defeated the emperors and obtain the strongest weapon in the world, Pirate King Marshall D. Teach and the man that sailed to ends of the world and found One Piece, the freest man in the world: Pirate King Monkey D. Luffy which will end up ruling the world?!" Instead of: "GIVE ME BACK MY TITLE!"
lol You make out the conflict I propose to sound like such a petty one. It wouldn't just be Luffy whining about wanting the title for himself just because someone beat him to it.
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If Teach becomes the Pirate King first, everybody else in the world will think he's unparalleled. He would have done what no other person has done, and be assumed to be the one who carries Roger's will as well as the Ancient Kingdom's if knowledge about the Void Century becomes public. The conflict there is that they think that because teach accomplished these almost-prophetical goals, they think that he surely must be the only one suitable for becoming Pirate King. That every cunning method he did to accomplish his goals and his corrupt philosophies are what is needed to become a Pirate King, and everything else being unsuitable. Kind of like the cynical belief people have of how nice guys never win from seeing how many of them fail with the honorable risks they take and how those who rise to the top can only be the selfish guys who break the rules and seem to never get caught or stopped. And if people accept that as the truth, then they would give up their morals and think being underhanded like Teach is the only way to fulfill your dreams in life.
What Luffy represents in beating Teach after he gains the title is proving that this is not the only way to be the Pirate King, and that his compassionate, moral way of becoming the Pirate King thanks to efforts of both him and his friends, and embodying his reign as the freest man of the seas who compels others to be free as well, is superior. Superior to Teach's of viewing everything from ethics to companions as expendable whose usefulness ends. Not just to represent his specific dream of becoming Pirate King, but to inspire any and every type of dream, which is what Luffy has done for all of his crewmates and friends that he's fought for. Which is why Luffy is such a proficient antithesis to guys like Teach and Doflamingo, insightfully selfish, anarchistic villains who make speeches about concepts like good and evil don't matter and how justice is solely defined by who is triumphant. That all that matters is accomplishing your goals by any means necessary, and having no standards in the process. Which is a perspective that, if SEEMINGLY victorious over Luffy's, would justify the Gorosei and Akainu's beliefs in prejudicially labeling all pirates (and anyone who acts against those currently in power) as equivalently evil threats and indirectly being an obstructor of anyone who wishes to have the daring freedom to follow unconventional dreams.
See, it's one thing to think it's scary that Teach with all of his power is going to promote fear and destruction all over the world. But how much more terrifying would be if Teach didn't just oppress people, but INSPIRED people to start thinking that his way of thinking is right for both noble souls who are doubtful about their virtuous capabilities and the already irredeemable who seek justification for who indulging in their vices without needing to worry about altruistic groups like the Marines/World Government and pirates like Shanks judging them and seeming so invincible (and rightfully so in certain cases ethically). All of this would be a genius bizarro mirror twist on how Luffy inspires people's ambitions in a way that advocates their redeeming beliefs and attributes (especially for people like Bellamy who were originally petty, nihilistic scum) and condemning those who subjugate others to accomplish their goals and attempt to humiliate those who have earnest values. All of this perfectly lines up with Teach's Impel Down speech of viewing good and evil as concepts that aren't worth finding an answer to, with greedy aspirations no matter the how being the pure priority. Both Roger and Whitebeard inspired new ages of conviction and ambition for the world (although it's through them dying lol). What I described is the type of conviction and ambition for the world that Teach would threaten to bring as the Pirate King. And wouldn't that be such a great way to make the Final War even MORE intense? All of its hype would be centered around it being the dawn of Blackbeard's era of greed and terror (which you can even see happening in some areas during the fallout of Whitebeard's age like with Brownbeard's island raid), which spurs the World Government to start a world war. I'm going to repost some familiar Impel Down images below, but don't just pay attention to how surprising epic Blackbeard's introduction, but specifically what both Hannyabal says and Teach's response, and imagine Hannyabal representing the Marines/World Government/Gorosei.
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Blackbeard means more to this manga than just a competitor for Pirate King or generic pirate monger like Shiki due to being a D, parallel to Luffy both in personality and crew, and most likely having a huge connection to the Ancient Kingdom due to being the anomalous "evil" D. And the best way to strut that type of narrative importance around is for Blackbeard to counter what Luffy's character interactions and dream represent in how it advocates an Age of Dreams for the world to be inspired by. And Teach can do that is by surprising everyone who expects Luffy to in both dietetically and in real life by threatening to inspire the world to become an Age of Nightmares. Roger and Whitebeard revolutionized the world by proclaiming that One Piece exists, so think of how hectic the world can become if they find out that somebody found the One Piece, especially someone that like Marshall D. Teach. Especially in how it leads to the chaos of the Final War in how the lines of factions are drawn and the types of people, good and bad, that become emboldened. Just look at how characters like Bellamy are able to be inspired by the likes of Doflamingo. It's foolish to think that a new Pirate King being crowned is only going to intimidate the world rather than compel it to act a whole new way. And Teach would totally be the type to want to inspire these corrupt greedy dreams in people, as you can see how he advocated the selfish pursuit of dreams to Luffy. Except it seemed so noble before we learned how Blackbeard executes that belief.
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I actually think that what you propose can work in its own right. And honestly, pretty much everything I said about Blackbeard inspiring immoral selfishness in the world can stick with your theory to a degree. But I see much more creative merit gained from Oda having Jozu's diamond balls and being willing to make a twist as unexpected and daring as this, that would definitively make Teach seem like on a higher plane above Luffy that gives more compulsion for the populace to think his manner of freedom is the best. Because I don't think what should be important about Luffy and Teach to the rest of the world in the endgame of One Piece is solely in who is the Pirate King. But in which is the better TYPE of Pirate King, and if there can even be more than one type to begin with just like how it takes prejudicial citizens the Straw Hats meet a while to find out there are other types of pirates besides just the bad ones. Which is more inspiring between seeing Luffy and Teach on equal planes that split the masses or Teach seemingly having the natural advantage that makes those who support Luffy feel truly tested? In which the latter possibility would make it all the more awesome when the people Luffy's words and actions have moved still support him to win after his first "loss"? Because that is how Luffy is always inspiring to other people and the fanbase as whole, and it would be so beautiful for Luffy's friends and fans to stand up to fight for him against the overwhelming odds when his dream is most threatened to fail to pay back Luffy doing that for all of them in their darkest hours. Seeing how he still gets up and learns whenever he does struggles and loses a fight. It's not about who has the cleanest winning streak, but if, how, and why you get back up whenever you do lose.
Speaking of the age-old formula of Luffy beating an antagonist after losing the first round, how would it not be monumental if Teach fulfilled that by stealing the Pirate King title? That would be what truly gives due respect to someone like Teach being the final villain and Luffy's recurring nemesis. Because we've so many instances of Luffy getting beaten and scarred by villains before eventually beating them up that if feels like rise and repeat at this point, and has lost a lot of its luster since the first time we saw it when Crocodile beat Luffy. So to if Oda wanted to Teach to significantly stand out as a way to show that he's truly a cut above the rest in Luffy's rogues gallery, he will do what no other villain did. He will "defeat" his dream (not that we can't also get Luffy losing to Teach in a brief fight on Raftel). You can beat up Luffy and even kill people closest to him. We've seen Luffy overcome the trauma of those things. But how will Luffy deal with the trauma of having his dream stolen and literally everything he cared about in being friend, captain, and pirate as a whole being not just spat on, but treated as being inferior compared to his parallel Blackbeard? The answer is quite simple, yet so epically effective. Like a real pirate would in having something valuable taken from them, he'll gain the willpower to steal back the title. Which would be the best testament ever in acknowledging why Luffy is an inspiration of both ambition and willpower no matter how much he's initially doubted and seems to be on the ropes. Luffy being so motivated to steal the title back would perfectly fit in character with how selfishly stubborn Luffy was over who would get Ace's fruit as well, only accepting someone who was worthy like Sabo.
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Add the possible controversy in people thinking Teach might be the true heir to the ideals and potential of the Ancient Kingdom/D Clan that Luffy will also combat and disprove in favor of his virtues, and we get both the best shonen villain and suspenseful endgame ever.
A bit of both? If Elbaf and the Red Hair pirates are indeed as connected as we assume them to be, and Mihawk is associated with Red Hair, then Mihawk could very well show up during Elbaf. I say a bit of both, because since Zoro was recruited he has always threatened to leave the crew if their voyage came in the way of their dream. We saw character growth by Zoro kneeling to Mihawk, but considering we have another crewmate left the crew situation with Sanji, and that being somehow tackled upon when the crew reunites, I could see Zoro leaving after Luffy completes his dream in Raftel. Of course if, the voyage isn't over after Raftel, and Luffy doesn't proclaim himself the Pirate King then, things change. But let's consider it does culminate Luffy's dream, then Zoro can be selfish and I would see it as something the entire crew acknowledges.
I've always been open to the Straw Hats meeting the Red Hair Pirates (including Mihawk) again. Elbaf would be the perfect place, especially if it's one of Shanks' allied territories since his ship has a Viking theme, and so do the Giants. But there would be no stakes and built-up hype involved if Mihawk just happens to be there and Zoro wins. They can have a brief scuffle where Zoro is able to actually look like he can finally match Mihawk. That would be a good way to show Zoro's growth and satiate the need to see a near-end of series Zoro fight Mihawk. But not to have Zoro's dream satisfyingly come true. Then it just makes whatever fights he gets into during the Final War feel like a step down no matter how epic and world-breaking they are. This goes against how, in a story like One Piece, it entertains so much by showing how it can keep stepping up its qualities. You could argue that maybe Shiryu defeats Mihawk AFTER Zoro defeats Mihawk, but that's not going to have the same amount of suspenseful weight that only Shiryu winning would bring. Especially through a typical underhanded way of fighting the Blackbeard Pirates are known for in contrast to how dignified Zoro is. Zoro can reasonably leave the crew after Raftel if the Final War wasn't going to happen, but that's just it. It's going to. So Zoro's character journey should adapt to that inevitability while reaping the best possible rewards for the narrative and making his character development as meaningful as it can ever be.
Considering the stakes, how is a fight like that ever going to have a powerful effect, we are entering a stage where the WORLD IS AT STAKE! Well, this would have to be explained with character's personality. I don't find it weird to be selfish when things are looking gloom, because selfishness is something we see in every critical situation. We all love our heroes defying our primal instics, but considering human history and how we have seen people abandoning their children and a lot more sinister aspects of human's darkness, it is not out there. The main problem is that how is the fight against Shy-bum going to have any tension if the fight for the strongest title is decided before? Mainly because Zoro will get beat up, and we have seen it before, Zoro being so critically injured that his fights are troublesome due to his injuries. If this type of development is not satisfying for you, I cannot really argue against it, however I can argue something else.
Another main issue I have with Shy-bum getting the title ( I mean nowhere we have seen him ever aiming for it, we have yet to see more, so I won't pre-judge), however I saw suggestions that he won with underhanded tactics. Which is another issue, because then is he REALLY the greatest if he won with underhanded tactics? The reason I want to see Mihawk and Zoro is because both present the pure swordmanship path. I can agree with: THAT IS WHY IT WORKS SO WELL THAT HE GETS DEFEATED! but if he does it would have to be because of pure skill, not because they ganged up on Mihawk or Shy-bum tried to kill someone important to Dracule and the latter left his guard down. If Shy-bum wins using underhanded tactics, then it isn't about being the greatest swordman anymore, it is about beating a jackass, which the ex-jailer already has without the need of adding ~killed your mentor~ on his list.
We didn't see Teach ever saying that he wanted to become Pirate King until his fight with Ace at the end of the Water 7 saga. And he never even talked about the One Piece until telling Luffy that he's sure it exists during Impel Down. Give it time. If the Blackbeard Pirates show up in Wano Country, the land rife with swordsmen, then M. Bison Shiryu of the Rain can bring it up. Although to be honest, I also like him not caring about the title at all when he defeats Mihawk. It'll just make the way Mihawk was defeated that much more surpassing and insulting to Zoro.
And see, I knew you would bring up the underhanded methods part. Because I would also be disappointed if, say, Van Auger distracts Mihawk with a few shots while Shiryu goes in to slice his legs. Shiryu being defeated should be a credit to how, as dishonorable as he can be like his crew cohorts, he still defeated Mihawk in a definitive 1v1 swordsmanship duel. It won't be satisfying if Shiryu wasn't really stronger than Mihawk. But don't worry, I have an answer. Jozu's diamond fruit. Just have it be revealed that Mihawk can't cut diamond rather than not using his strongest attack against Jozu or any convoluted nonsense like that, and it works. Relying on a Devil Fruit would be underhanded, but still make the battle fair and have Shiryu be the superior swordsman. It wouldn't be correct to argue that a swordsman using a Devil Fruit makes them an ineligible swordsman because Mr. 1 and Fujitora have Devil Fruits powers while being expert swordsmen in their own right. And Shiryu would still have strong Haki and skills to defeat Mihawk rather than solely relying on his Devil Fruit as a crutch. It would be silly if Oda tried to go for a "you can't be a REAL swordsman if you use a Devil Fruit" shtick lol. But it would make Zoro all the more impressive to see surpassing Mihawk.
The only thing that I can add to this is that Mihawk's and Zoro's relationship became less hostile right from their first encounter. With Mihawk's encouraging speech and how he did not flat out killed him. In retrospect that was a stepping stone for their future relatinship as master and disciple. In respect to Marine Ford, my view on Mihawk was that he was there to fight a couple of people, he didn't break a sweat and was testing Luffy as Shanks's prodigee. "strongest" attacks doesn't even qualify, when all he was doing was swinging his sword around. I have been off with my memory as of late, so I went back to check, and indeed Mihawk said he wouldn't hold back but we also have to consider he was never hurt or cut by anyone. I believe we only saw a fraction of Mihawk's power and considering that IF Zoro was never able to touch him even after being two years training under him. That would elevate Mihawk more, not diminsh his worth.
But he was still shady, mysterious, and seemed invincible at the time. Some or even most of that impressive portrayal has evaporated by this point. It's not that Mihawk went all-out at Marineford, he probably didn't. It's that Oda decided to give Mihawk such a portrayal of, quite frankly, ineffectiveness rather than preserving him on a pedestal. The only thing he did that was a credit to his swordsmanship skill was one-shot Mr. 1. I don't think we saw Mihawk unleash his most powerful attacks at Marineford, but his portrayal has gotten dulled from how pressuring it initially was. Especially when you look at Shanks and how he still looks untouchable presence-wise, or how much Whitebeard put up with and throttled enemies all around him one after another as he kept getting mortally wounded.
Even though I have admitted to wanting Mihawk and Zoro have a duel during the final war. I also have to admit that this particular dream doesn't need to have ~the world is at stake, push harder~ for it to be accomplished. Having Shy-bum try to gun at Zoro and his title, while the latter is heavily injured provides tension as well.
It's not like I'm saying world-ending stakes are the only way Zoro can have a satisfying final fight in and of itself. Zoro's not a hero, and his will as a swordsman is not explicitly connected to protecting the innocent rather than selfishly wanting the title for the sake of acknowledging his own skill. It's just that this is the only for him to have a satisfying final fight in the scope of One Piece's narrative. That's the difference. That battle would promote tension, but it still wouldn't be as memorable or major as Zoro defeating Mihawk. In fact, it would only insult Shiryu and make him out to be a small fry now that Zoro is at the top of the world if he couldn't even beat Zoro with such a huge starting advantage. And the Blackbeard Pirates deserve a better portrayal than that as the final threats of the series.
I combine Murphy's Law with my bad luck so the opposite happens. As in the worst would be for it to be off-panelled, but given my luck when I say something will go some way, it won't happen. But now that I said this, it has been reversed so…IT WILL BE OFF PANELED! (or will it?)
Your luck seems to be as erratic as Zoro's sense of direction.
See above where I…." bu.bbbut...one of them has a sword..." comment.
But Gorbachev has a mustache. I daresay it puts Whitebeard's to shame.
I just don't want Oda to cut corners… okay I am not going to start with the puns. But basically I am not saying it IS important, I just think that if Mihawk is out of the picture for Zoro's dream, then it would be satisfying to know that it was somehow made concrete between their moments together.
I can agree with that. It would be disappointing to have them scuffle over the timeskip and Mihawk still looking untouchable like at the Baratie, as if Zoro is still the naive, weak newbie he was then. Which would make his goal of surpassing Mihawk look possible and give credit to how much he has grown.
I can see why it may be important. And if so, a short (but probably interrupted or something) fight can happen on Elbaf. Same with Luffy versus Shanks and Usopp versus Yasopp.
PS: I would hide things, but I am too sick and I am going back to bed. Sorry about that.
It's cool.
@Long:
Raftel wont come after the war. Whitebeard even hints the treasure will cause a huge change in the world on his death bed so Im prediciting either luffy or BB get there and then it all goes down
Btw how would robin and thus the readers learn about the Void Century if they dont get on Raftel First, also I feel like narratively if BB got it, "luffy wouldnt be like well Ill just steal it back"
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I agree that it can't happen before the war. But as for your claim of Luffy not being "Well, I'll just steal it back.", I talk about that in response to Tamiel earlier in this message.