Talk Religion And Be Nice About It

[xan]

@Captain:

As much as I follow the preachings of Jesus, the fact that he was a martyr bothers me, even more, the symbol used in the churches (crucified Jesus) makes me uncomfortable, I believe he was a great man, now, to praise Jesus' suffering? It just gives me a dramatic image of the religion.

I remember one day, I was in a church, and in it, instead of the sculpture of Jesus being crucified, they had the sculpture of Jesus coming out of the cross and going to heaven, this sculpture gave me a message of comfort because I know he suffered and died for us, but now I know that the his suffering was not the end.

The representation of suffering was precisely the way how it started getting many people to follow the religion. Christianity was one of the few religions during the olden times that talked about an afterlife and how the sufferings now could save the soul when it reaches the afterlife. The suffering appealed to masses especially the ones who were present in the lower rungs of a society's hierarchy. Christianity found its way to the slaves and other ignored members of the society who incidentally ended up being a sizeable chunk of the population. The symbol of suffering and repentance of sins were something new those days and entirely relatable. Jesus was like the Karl Marx of religion.

Some of the teachings don't make sense now that the living standards have increased exponentially as compared to the days of slavery etc. Some of the teachings would make more sense if the perspective is altered to suit someone living at that era

[MetaMario]

@hosemisnuba:

Kinda, except the amount of sects is absurd, and the various tenets of each branch vary on a lot levels. In the end though, in my opinion, the primary differences are petty and they were made simply because people are well…. people.

IIRC one difference is one group allowing idols over the other? Plus focusing on Easter vs. Christmas…I think.

[xan]

Catholicism: Recognize the Pope as the supreme authority of Catholics - yes. Worhip Mary - yes. Worship saints - yes. Idol worship - yes
Protestantism: No for all of the above

If you actually think about it, Sunni Islam is somewhat similar to Protestantism whereas Shia Islam is somewhat similar to Catholicism when it comes to the hierarchy and control held within both sects

[RoboBlue]

@firelord111:

What is diffrence in christan sects is it mostly historical like shia and sunni in islam ?

There were three major historical schisms in Christianity, IMO.

1.) The council of Nicea, which established among mainstream Christians the belief that Jesus was divine. Arius and his followers disagreed, but their views were denounced as heresy and effectively eliminated in western Europe after Christianity became the state religion of the Roman empire and underwent a long period of militarization and authoritarianism.

2.) The East-West Schism that created the East Orthodox Church.

3.) The Protestant Reformation, which opened the door to all of the modern sects by exposing corruption in the Catholic Church. The modern trend of liberalization followed.

@Kaptayn:

Thought I'd share some data.

! https://i.redd.it/shyvnpt2kamx.png

I'm planning on reading the Bible and the Quran whenever I'll find time to do so.

Is there a version of that for color-blind people? Charts like that drive me nuts. :X

[MetaMario]

@xan:

Catholicism: Recognize the Pope as the supreme authority of Catholics - yes. Worhip Mary - yes. Worship saints - yes. Idol worship - yes
Protestantism: No for all of the above

So basically, the former wants to spread love for Jesus' mom and buddies too. (Isn't the actual name Joshua? Jesus never sounded right on the tongue to me when you look at the other biblical names)

Did not know Protestants didn't recognize the Pope though. Is he/she viewed as a nonentity or demoted to just being another priest-type?

[hosemisnuba]

@MetaMario:

(Isn't the actual name Joshua? Jesus never sounded right on the tongue to me when you look at the other biblical names)

Pretty much. They mean the same thing after all: 'Yahweh saves'. I would know that because my name is Josh. If Jesus is the right pronunciation, its probably just a Hebrew linguistic derivative of Joshua then.

[MetaMario]

@hosemisnuba:

Pretty much. They mean the same thing after all: 'Yahweh saves'. I would know that because my name is Josh. If Jesus is the right pronunciation, its probably just a Hebrew linguistic derivative of Joshua then.

I figured as much. Does it offend believers to call him that?

[hosemisnuba]

@MetaMario:

I figured as much. Does it offend believers to call him that?

I wouldn't know to be honest. I guess the translators back in the day made the distinction because Joshua was a major character in the Old testament and they didn't want early believers to be confused by the two sharing the same name. I guess its more a matter of confusion, and less a matter of being offensive.

[MetaMario]

@hosemisnuba:

I wouldn't know to be honest. I guess the translators back in the day made the distinction because Joshua was a major character in the Old testament and they didn't want early believers to be confused by the two sharing the same name.

So that's why…..well, I learned something new today!

[C_uggs]

@xan:

The representation of suffering was precisely the way how it started getting many people to follow the religion. Christianity was one of the few religions during the olden times that talked about an afterlife and how the sufferings now could save the soul when it reaches the afterlife. The suffering appealed to masses especially the ones who were present in the lower rungs of a society's hierarchy. Christianity found its way to the slaves and other ignored members of the society who incidentally ended up being a sizeable chunk of the population. The symbol of suffering and repentance of sins were something new those days and entirely relatable. Jesus was like the Karl Marx of religion.

Some of the teachings don't make sense now that the living standards have increased exponentially as compared to the days of slavery etc. Some of the teachings would make more sense if the perspective is altered to suit someone living at that era

More then his suffering, I think that what he preached was more important and impactful to the people who were in the lower class of the hierarchy in the past.

Approaching people to a religion by the amout of suffering the messiah suffered makes people relate to the messanger because they can associated their suffering with the suffering of Jesus or any other preacher, instead of practicing the ideals that the messiah preached or the core ideals of a religion.

BTW, Comparing Jesus with Karl Marx was a bit…too much, I understood what you were trying to say, but, for me, it felt wrong.

[Dr. Faust]

@Kaptayn:

Thought I'd share some data.

! https://i.redd.it/shyvnpt2kamx.png

Wow! Even though there's the Vatican in Italy, i didn't think so many people believed in god. Having born and always lived there I find hard to believe that 74% comes from younger people up to 30. Now that i think about it, it could be because most of people in Italy are non observant, very few go to church on sunday morning and they're almost all old people, even most of those who believe firmly don't care much about all that, so the number of believers may seem smaller than it actually is. I think that many also claim to believe and they make do the Eucharist and Confirmation to their sons and daughters most for social reasons than actual belief.
My parents and relatives are non observant and though they made me do the eucharist they didn't impose any belief on me, i think that's how many of younger people today in Italy were raised.

I guess i could call myself an agnostic, but i prefer to say that i don't care about religion and ignore it. I aknowledge that faith is a choice and must be respected, and i do.
But as for me i feel offended by the very fact that i must choose a religious view, even if that is agnosticism.

[xan]

@MetaMario:

Did not know Protestants didn't recognize the Pope though. Is he/she viewed as a nonentity or demoted to just being another priest-type?

He is just considered to be yet another human being who shouldn't dictate what Christians should do in the name of God. It is because he is considered to not have received any official authority by God himself to judge or set rules on what is right and wrong.

For the name thing, coincidentally, he is referred to as "Yesu" in my native tongue. I guess they just skipped the English translation and took it directly from the source which takes "Yeshua" for the actual name

[RoboBlue]

@MetaMario:

Did not know Protestants didn't recognize the Pope though. Is he/she viewed as a nonentity or demoted to just being another priest-type?

Nonentity. Protestants do accept the canonized bible, but tend to disavow almost everything that happened after the events described therein. The modern Catholic concept of the Papacy is based on a single line in Matthew 16:18

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church

We don't actually know the historical background of the Papacy, and others dispute Peter's position as the first Pope. James the Just has been put forward as another possible first Pope.

It's interesting how little we actually know about the early church; the lives of many saints (including some famous ones like Saint Valentine) are completely unknown aside from the fact that they were martyred for their faith.

[Kaptayn]

@RoboBlue:

Is there a version of that for color-blind people? Charts like that drive me nuts. :X

This is the only version I have… sorry.
I quickly inserted the data in a spreadsheet file (the ,00% isn't meant to be there, since I don't have that information, but never mind):

!

[RoboBlue]

@Captain:

BTW, Comparing Jesus with Karl Marx was a bit…too much, I understood what you were trying to say, but, for me, it felt wrong.

I think a better way to put it would be to say that he's one of a long line of empathetic heroes of the masses.

We don't have historical information about Moses, but he served the same purpose for those enslaved by Babylon.

@Kaptayn:

This is the only version I have… sorry.
I quickly inserted the data in a spreadsheet file (the ,00% isn't meant to be there, since I don't have that information, but never mind):

! http://i.imgur.com/GV93RGq.png

Ah cool, thanks!

[Kaptayn]

@Dr.:

I think that many also claim to believe and they make do the Eucharist and Confirmation to their sons and daughters most for social reasons than actual belief.

This is a valid point. I know people who, if you'd ask what their religion is, would say themselves "Christian", without ever going to church, having read the Bible or following anything that is preached by the religion.
What really makes you a christian (/other)?

[hosemisnuba]

@Captain:

BTW, Comparing Jesus with Karl Marx was a bit…too much, I understood what you were trying to say, but, for me, it felt wrong.

Its not exactly inaccurate, nor is it actually insulting. Marx and his ideas weren't bad in the slightest: it was the evil people who used his ideas that made him infamous, not unlike the Popes who called for the crusades using their authority instilled by the Bible(granted Christianity has been able to do good in its time on this planet, but there certainly are negative aspects of it).

[RoboBlue]

@Kaptayn:

This is a valid point. I know people who, if you'd ask what their religion is, would say themselves "Christian", without ever going to church, having read the Bible or following anything that is preached by the religion.
What really makes you a christian (/other)?

Belief in the story of Jesus, basically. Religious labels aren't very helpful for me, since the range of views espoused by members of any large religion is so vast that it basically encompasses all possible views on life.

[hosemisnuba]

@Kaptayn:

This is a valid point. I know people who, if you'd ask what their religion is, would say themselves "Christian", without ever going to church, having read the Bible or following anything that is preached by the religion.
What really makes you a christian (/other)?

I think a lot of people (in Christian Countries) who default to Christianity (when they don't actually practice the religion) do so because one, like Dr. Faust said, its socially acceptable, and two, they like the idea of a wonderful-after-life/get-out-of-hell-for-free card.

[RoboBlue]

@hosemisnuba:

Its not exactly inaccurate, nor is it actually insulting. Marx and his ideas weren't bad in the slightest: it was the evil people who used his ideas that made him infamous, not unlike the Popes who called for the crusades using their authority instilled by the Bible(granted Christianity has been able to do good in its time on this planet, but there certainly are negative aspects of it).

Marx has a bad name in the west, which is why I suggested focusing on the fact that he was a hero of the common downtrodden man. Many religious and nonreligious entities played similar roles (Gandhi, Buddha, etc…).

[Jabberwok]

@Femme:

I'm more like
picks up a fork
Look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you say my collection's complete?..

I 100% did this cooking with my friends, though I'm usually advocating for Be Our Guest or I Wanna Be Like You.

Anyways, I'm firmly of the belief that religion holds no sway over if you get into an afterlife or not. I think religion is useful for giving people hope and enforcing ethics, so I have no qualms with religious people as long as they're not infringing on anyone else.

My background is very lightly Christian, in that I very rarely went to church even as a kid and we only prayed/said grace before big meals on religious holidays. I get the feeling that my mom saw it never really took root in me and didn't pursue it.

[RoboBlue]

@Jabberwok:

Anyways, I'm firmly of the belief that religion holds no sway over if you get into an afterlife or not. I think religion is useful for giving people hope and enforcing ethics, so I have no qualms with religious people as long as they're not infringing on anyone else.

I don't personally believe in an afterlife, but I do believe that we live on in a literal sense through our offspring.

Death is an unfortunate part of our reality, and we all need to find ways to overcome the fear of death. If belief in an afterlife helps you do that and be a better person at the same time, I respect that.

There could actually be an afterlife, I just personally don't believe that the evidence provided to me is conclusive.

[sggupta]

@Dr.:

I guess i could call myself an agnostic, but i prefer to say that i don't care about religion and ignore it. I aknowledge that faith is a choice and must be respected, and i do.
But as for me i feel offended by the very fact that i must choose a religious view, even if that is agnosticism.

That's something i can understand and i can agree with.
There's only one thing about my religious views that is permanent,and that is i will form my own view as time goes on,seeing,thinking,understanding and finding new thoughts,beliefs and perspectives.i take my views as very malleable,and not something unchangable.

@RoboBlue:

Ah cool, thanks!

also,disregarding colors the position of the bars is also constant,if you still want to look at the diagram.the first one is harcore atheist,not believing in any spirit,God or life force.the second is spiritual,believing in some spirit or life force.third one is believing in God,and fourth is don't know.
i realise that this will only come in handy if you can tell the change in colors(i don't know if you can) ,but anyway you can still the percentages of the respective groups

[C_uggs]

@RoboBlue:

I think a better way to put it would be to say that he's one of a long line of empathetic heroes of the masses.

We don't have historical information about Moses, but he served the same purpose for those enslaved by Babylon.

@hosemisnuba:

Its not exactly inaccurate, nor is it actually insulting. Marx and his ideas weren't bad in the slightest: it was the evil people who used his ideas that made him infamous, not unlike the Popes who called for the crusades using their authority instilled by the Bible(granted Christianity has been able to do good in its time on this planet, but there certainly are negative aspects of it).

Moses, Abraham, Noah and any other biblical figure can be translated as heroes of the masses because they lived before christ, but not Jesus, he was not a hero, he was the embodiment of everything right in a time full of chaos.

I doubt that Jesus used demagogy in his preaching, much to the contrary, he understood their situation and helped the lower class to find the right path. So, for me, comparing Jesus to Karl Marx, is like comparing Jesus to Stalin, Fidel or any dictator that uses the masses for their own benefit. = wrong.

But again, the life of the messiah is the true religion or the "core" of the religion, and not what people understand of them. Comparing political points of views and persons to religion is super wrong, because the first is fated to corruption, because it is administered by man.

@Kaptayn:

This is a valid point. I know people who, if you'd ask what their religion is, would say themselves "Christian", without ever going to church, having read the Bible or following anything that is preached by the religion.

@Kaptayn:

What really makes you a christian (/other)?

Being christian is not tied to the preaching of the holy books, you follow a religion because you feel that is the right thing to do. For example, If you believe in mutual love and respect your family, brothers and others, then you belive in what Jesus preached and thus, you are christian.

[desa]

@Kaptayn:

What really makes you a christian (/other)?

Believing there is a God and Jesus is his son(and sometimes another version of himself). At least that's how I always defined it. You can be Christian and not follow the teachings. It's all about the belief.

[Kaptayn]

@Captain:

For example, If you believe in mutual love and respect your family, brothers and others, then you belive in what Jesus preached and thus, you are christian.

You could believe in "mutual love and respect your family […]" while being of a totally different religion, or being an atheist.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@desa:

Believing there is a God and Jesus is his son(and sometimes another version of himself). At least that's how I always defined it. You can be Christian and not follow the teachings. It's all about the belief.

Could you be a murderer yet still be christian if you believe, and only believe, that Jesus is God's son?
I understand your point of view, but this doesn't sound right.

[desa]

@Kaptayn:

Could you be a murderer yet still be christian if you believe, and only believe, that Jesus is God's son?
I understand your point of view, but this doesn't sound right.

You can be atheist and be a extrelemy good guy. You can be a christian an be be an extremely bad person.
Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Agnotistic, Deism, Antitheism….
Those terms that defines what you believe in not who you are or what to do with these beliefs. Sometimes(often?) those of similar faith have similar values(and practice) because those are powerful belief than affect(if Jesus did this for me, I should do that or the bible say this I should do it) but it is will not always happen and sometimes they affect them in very different ways .

[C_uggs]

@Kaptayn:

You could believe in "mutual love and respect your family […]" while being of a totally different religion, or being an atheist.

Could you be a murderer yet still be christian if you believe, and only believe, that Jesus is God's son?
I understand your point of view, but this doesn't sound right.

A true christian would never be a murderer to begin with, believing that Jesus is God's son is only the basic, to be a christian, you have to follow and preach the ideal of Jesus.

But yeah, being a christian is not tied to the bible, is something much greater than that, even if you are atheist, who do you think that came up with the concept of love towards others ?

In the christian case, it was Jesus.

[sggupta]

@Captain:

But yeah, being a christian is not tied to the bible, is something much greater than that, even if you are atheist, who do you think that came up with the concept of love towards others ?
In the christian case, it was Jesus.

Humanity .

[C_uggs]

@sggupta:

16 characters of Humanity

Well, I hardly believe in that, man needed a role model to teach them how to be a society.

[wolfwood]

@Captain:

Well, I hardly believe in that, man needed a role model to teach them how to be a society.

So am i to understand that your suggestion is that god created creatures without the capacity of empathy and compassion in his own image?

[sggupta]

@Captain:

Well, I hardly believe in that, man needed a role model to teach them how to be a society.

That's cool,that's a belief and also coincidentally one which answers the question asked by kapatyn.the belief that Jesus is the role model,and also to some level following his teachings would better sum up what being christian is to you,rather than saying anyone who believes in love and respect for family is christian

[RoboBlue]

I think we need to calm this debate down a tiny bit.

Jesus was a good guy who did his best to spread love, tolerance and patience. He even spoke out against racism in a time when it was widespread and institutionally unquestioned. However, ample historical evidence exists proving that Jesus did not invent the golden rule, and I don't think he ever claimed to have.

Plus, the implications of pre-existing or outsider religious groups not having a wider concept of empathy are pretty offensive. Many Jews who predated Jesus showed kindness and tolerance to strangers, to pick one example.

As far as deciding who is a "real" Christian/Jew/Muslim/Atheist, that's a debate that will never end. There's an entire Wikipedia page debating "who is a Jew", just to show how unanswerable the question is.

I've found that the only reliable standard is to believe individuals when they openly identify as a member of a group, and not to judge a group by the actions of one individual.

[C_uggs]

@RoboBlue:

I think we need to calm this debate down a tiny bit.

Jesus was a good guy who did his best to spread love, tolerance and patience. He even spoke out against racism in a time when it was widespread and institutionally unquestioned. However, ample historical evidence exists proving that Jesus did not invent the golden rule, and I don't think he ever claimed to have.

Plus, the implications of pre-existing or outsider religious groups not having a wider concept of empathy are pretty offensive. Many Jews who predated Jesus showed kindness and tolerance to strangers, to pick one example.

First, as I said earlier on, I am not 100% christian, I believe in Jesus and his preachings and that is it, surely I can not explain everything with a blind conviction or explain all the lore of christianity, I only can explain what I believe.

About what wolfwood asked, to my point of view, god made creatures fated to sin, so Jesus was sent to be a role model for them, all this according to a "christian" point of view, I am not saying that others religions lacks empathy or love.

[wolfwood]

@Captain:

About what wolfwood asked, to my point of view, god made creatures fated to sin, so Jesus was sent to be a role model for them, all this according to a "christian" point of view.

Which is quite a different thing than saying that before Jesus Christ the concept of compassion did not exist.

That Jesus was a figure to be emulated and brought things like love and compassion to the forefront is not something i think anyone disagrees with.

Buuut yeah if that was what you meant then i clearly misread you before.

[RoboBlue]

It is true that all people make mistakes, and it's important to provide a route to forgiveness and a return to normalcy.

[C_uggs]

@wolfwood:

Which is quite a different thing than saying that before Jesus Christ the concept of compassion did not exist.

That Jesus was a figure to be emulated and brought things like love and compassion to the forefront is not something i think anyone disagrees with.

Buuut yeah if that was what you meant then i clearly misread you before.

Love and compassion have always existed, but when and where Jesus was born, these feelings had no names and people did not know how to use them, Jesus taught people how to demonstrate affection to each other.
And no problem, I have a hard time explaining things I believe.

[RoboBlue]

They literally did, though… we have some of the words people used at the time, thanks in large part to the old testament.

[Ruin]

remember that time elisha summoned some bears and made them beat up some rowdy teenagers?
that was awesome

[RoboBlue]

Yeah, that stuff is in the Bible too. :P

[Femme]

That's something I had a hard time reconciling with when I studied Christianity on my own, the concept of God/trinity and such. What was the purpose of the prophets/messengers before Jesus? How come he only appeared after them?

I felt more comfortable with the Islamic explanation that Jesus was just a man, a prophet no less than Moses and Abraham. Still had a miraculous birth, but it made more sense to me that his purpose was the same as those who came before him, who also came with miracles in their own times. I never really felt comfortable with the concept of God-becoming-man, so the description of God being "There is nothing like unto him" in the Quran fit for me, personally.

[C_uggs]

@Femme:

I felt more comfortable with the Islamic explanation that Jesus was just a man, a prophet no less than Moses and Abraham. Still had a miraculous birth, but it made more sense to me that his purpose was the same as those who came before him, who also came with miracles in their own times. I never really felt comfortable with the concept of God-becoming-man, so the description of God being "There is nothing like unto him" in the Quran fit for me, personally.

My image of Jesus is closer to what you said, although I believe that Jesus was more important than the other prophets in the old testament.

Anyway, Jesus was a great man who preached for a better world.

[RoboBlue]

@Femme:

That's something I had a hard time reconciling with when I studied Christianity on my own, the concept of God/trinity and such. What was the purpose of the prophets/messengers before Jesus? How come he only appeared after them?

Jesus' Godhood has its roots in much older archetypes like Heracles. I suspect the concept of a demigod was originally developed as a way to include and respect other cultures' deities while also still maintaining a supreme patron deity.

[desa]

@Femme:

That's something I had a hard time reconciling with when I studied Christianity on my own, the concept of God/trinity and such. What was the purpose of the prophets/messengers before Jesus? How come he only appeared after them?

Give them some centuries/milennars to learn to be decent beings, realize they suck at it, say screw it they need to learn and then make an example that will leave a durable impact on humans from everywhere.

My approach to it is that the heaven was a elitism place where only a few chosen by god himself could get to(those he take away when they were about to die), the rest just disappeared into ashes. He then decided that he should give people everyone a shot at it, make Jesus took the burden of eternal death of all humanity and thanks now when you die you don't have to stay ashes forever. Why Jesus would be god? I go with only god could take the burden of the death of all people that were and are to come.

[hosemisnuba]

@Ruin:

remember that time elisha summoned some bears and made them beat up some rowdy teenagers?
that was awesome

He didn't beat them up with the bears- he had them mauled to death (42 kids to be exact). My other favorite story was when Saul had David collect 100 foreskins as a stipulation for marrying his daughter. By golly, I love the Bible.

[C_uggs]

@RoboBlue:

It is true that all people make mistakes, and it's important to provide a route to forgiveness and a return to normalcy.

Even if the christian god is the god of forgiveness, it doesn't mean that forgiveness is something easy to give.

How can you forgive someone who committed a crime and doesn't change ? Is easy to say "forgive me", especially if you were caught in the scene.

[RoboBlue]

That's what the Department of Justice is for. We need agents who will make it clear to unrepentent violent criminals that they cannot be allowed free in a functioning society.

[Femme]

@Captain:

My image of Jesus is closer to what you said, although I believe that Jesus was more important than the other prophets in the old testament.

Anyway, Jesus was a great man who preached for a better world.

I do agree that Jesus was a great man, and he is much honoured in Islam as well. I haven't been doing it here cuz it'd be annoying, but whenever muslims mention the name of any of the messengers or prophets, it is taught to respect them by saying "peace be upon him" afterwards, including Jesus. But personally I don't believe he was more important than Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc, the belief is that they are all equal, and that doesn't dishonour him in any way.

@RoboBlue:

Jesus' Godhood has its roots in much older archetypes like Heracles. I suspect the concept of a demigod was originally developed as a way to include and respect other cultures' deities while also still maintaining a supreme patron deity.

Yeah, I've read about all of that way back when. It's definitely an interesting topic.

@desa:

Give them some centuries/milennars to learn to be decent beings, realize they suck at it, say screw it they need to learn and then make an example that will leave a durable impact on humans from everywhere.

I dunno, it doesn't really fit with my understanding that God is All-Knowing. The time and societal strife that Jesus was born into was no less turbulent than say, Moses, whose people were abused and tortured and they had to walk through the sea to escape from a tyrannical Pharaoh. Moses was a prophet and was sufficiently guided by God to help his people, so why would God need to come himself to deal with the same severity of issues that Moses, his prophet, successfully dealt with?

[xan]

Whatever has been mentioned in the Bible about people doing good things in life - love, forgiveness, sacrifice etc have already been documented in the Vedas a bunch of centuries before Christ. The rise of Buddhism and Hinduism predates Christianity and proposes many good things which we see in the major religions and few perspectives specific to theirs.

The point is, most of the religions present similar things in different ways. Certain religions under certain circumstances get pushed ahead and few get stuck in time. Claiming exclusivity of certain characteristics in certain religions is really difficult to verify unless one has read pretty much all the books and the ideologies professed by each of these religions under discussion.

[RobZilla]

@MetaMario:

I would be lying if I said this thought hasn't entered my mind sometimes. :O

Just so much death and war throughout the ages all based on who's imaginary god is better.