@sgamer82:
Does not change the fact that the two arcs share way too many similarities for their own good, right down, along with what was already mentioned, to Chad defeating a moderately powerful opponent only to get immediately taken out by someone way above his level. One Piece was mentioned in reply to this part of my post earlier, and I agree with the point there and addressed it when specifying that it didn't apply here. Oda has a formula, a pattern his arcs consistently take. However, the content of those arcs can be wildly different from one arc to the next. Soul Society and Hueco Mundo do not, to me, accomplish that well enough that I can overlook the similarities.
Again, intentional symmetry. Oda even employs this technique between the first half of the series and the New World. It's almost certain that the series will end with Luffy giving his hat to Shanks' son.
@sgamer82:
From my viewpoint, that's exactly the problem. The fights aren't strategic. It's just two sides throwing superpowers at one another until one side stops moving. Combine that with the literary deus ex machinas like Nanao's Zanpakuto, Thundercat Yoruichi, or Gerard's defeat having nothing to do with any of the people actually fighting him, and you get fights that can almost be entirely skipped except for their end without really missing anything of substance.
That's because these are fights between Gods. How can one expect to defeat a God through strategy? The most powerful characters in Bleach can literally bend reality to their whims. My use of "deus ex machina" was intentional to reveal that a Zanpaku-to gives godly power to those who don't have it. Nanao's Zanpaku-to is literally a tool from the Gods. Yoruichi's ability is "science," and Gerard's constant resurrection is intended to evoke one of the powers of Christianity–the inability to die. In the end, that's Yhwach's ultimate goal anyway.
@sgamer82:
Removing characters from the story after they've served narrative purpose is one thing. Completely omitting them while the current arc (or, in the case of the Visored) actual fight are still ongoing is something else entirely. We had several people fighting Gerard simultaneously. He took them out, and we got nothing from any except Rukia or Renji from that moment on. Not even a pan shot to show them still out of the battle or trying to recover or otherwise having something to say. To use another example, how much time passed between Tsubaki's last speaking role and Orihime's mention of him in the final chapter? There's a Trope For That: What Happened To The Mouse?
The Visored only existed to get revenge on Aizen. Once their grudge was settled, some of them chose to go back to their old lives in Soul Society while others preferred to stay and live in the human world. Assume Gerard took out those he fought. When Zaraki was taken out of commission, all we saw was his arm cut off and his unconscious body. Kubo doesn't dwell on these things.
Tsubaki was Orihime's offensive power, but it's clear that from the beginning she never had the resolve to kill anyone (making her ineffective in battle but an effective healer). That's fine, since it aligns to her character. She doesn't need to kill anyone.
@sgamer82:
Honestly, I have no personal issue with not seeing everyone's bankais by the story's end. Going along with my comments about how battles were conducted, they were pretty much there to show off as many bankais as Kubo could before he wrapped up, in my opinion. That said, I don't think you can deny that never showing the bankai of a character who was the single biggest villain for half the series seems a smidge of an oversight.
That last sentence proves to me that you do have a personal issue with not seeing everyone's ban kai. Aizen's bankai was irrelevant the minute he obtained the power of a God. That's why he's been sealed in the first place…he's an immortal God who can bend reality to his will. Consider all of the characters whose Ban Kai and Shi Kai forms are completely different from each other (Sui-Feng, Urahara, Unohana, Kyoraku, etc...) and realize that Aizen's Bankai might not have been that much more impressive to begin with.
@HeartOfDarkness:
Missed something in the story? Weren't you just arguing that Bleach became more of a minimalist work with the focus onvthe message in its particular medium aka visuals?
Story =/= Plot. A story is an account of imaginary people and events told for entertainment. Plot is the sequence of events. Kubo's message is the main part of the story he wants to chew on, the plot is secondary. Think back to any assigned novel you read in high school and understand that every author had a message behind their words. Kubo is no different. He didn't write the story just to draw cool stuff–those artists are a dime a dozen (coughMashima*cough).
@Mr0:
But don't you think that the fact that, as you say, no one realised what you're posting perhaps hints that you're looking to far into it, and not that everyone else is missing something?
I do respect the amount of work you seem to have put into all of this analysis, but I just disagree with a lot of it, as art is so subjective, I really doubt Kubo planned most of what you're finding.
You're free to disagree with me. But I'm always going to assert my opinion is correct and use evidence to back it up. That's how I prove my facts. If I can't back up anything I've said, point out where and I'll try to find evidence. But do you really think Kubo included poems in every volume just to be "artistic"? Do you really think that "writer's block" prevented Kubo from writing a compelling story with great backgrounds (hint…literally every member on this board who read Bleach can state what they would have wanted Kubo to do instead...i.e. Aizen's ban kai/Ichigo changing Soul Society)? Did you not realize the major shift in writing style once the characters reached Hueco Mundo? Even something as simple as Hollows being hungry ghosts is, in retrospect, painfully obvious considering the references to Buddhism and Christianity present throughout the entire work.
It's easier to ignore intent if you don't get it. Kubo's interviews make him seem like someone who does things unintentionally…but I definitely don't think so. He's being as cryptic as any mangaka.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@zeltrax225:
Do you know what kind of story needs overanalyzing and deep thinking?
I didn't know it was shounen last time I checked, I'm pretty sure it was detective novels.
But hey Kubo loves reading mysteries so it certainly mean he could write one right?
No bloody hell, this is a shounen story published in a shounen magazine.
"No author should be restricted by his given medium and be given full creativity freedom."
Except that even if you tackle Bleach as a mystery it makes no fucking sense either.
You're severely underestimating the intelligence of Shueisha. Do you honestly believe they'd let an idiot helm a series they published? Even writers of the Simpsons have genius-level intellect and went to schools like Harvard. It's the same way in Japan. The credentials of a manga-ka at Shueisha are incredibly high, as you're competing with an entire nation of artists for 16 spots. Those who cannot draw a blockbuster are quickly phased out. And this generation of fans cares about quality. Bleach lasted so long because it met all of those standards. And don't think that it was cancelled. Kubo ended it right where he wanted to. 700 chapters? On the 15th anniversary of the series??? This was planned out.
@zeltrax225:
That's a terrible point. It's like saying there is no longer any weight to a critic. It's like ignoring all 10 good critics in the room just because of a few bad apples. Why do sites like rottentomatoes exist then?
Make no mistake, there are good critics…but rarely do they review anything of low substance. In the United States, becoming an anime critic is incredibly easy and low stakes. It also has a bad reputation. Do you honestly believe the writers of Anime News Network are graduating from Harvard?
@zeltrax225:
I think GoT is overrated and I like the Amazing Spider man 2. But I can understand why GoT is so popular and I can see the glaring flaws of TASM 2. If you give me a choice to spread the word, I'll tell people to watch GoT because I know I am bias as Spider Man is my favourite hero but I made an objective conclusion with the knowledge I have. This conclusion will then steer people to have a more enjoyable time with what I recommended. The minority of them might like TASM2 more but I can be rest assured a lot more will enjoy GoT.
That just tells me you know what other people will like. It doesn't mean you've analyzed the story thoroughly.
@zeltrax225:
People are not being objective by saying Bleach is good.
Bingo.
@zeltrax225:
You can say that everyone else jumps on the hate bandwagon and say that Bleach is bad without actually questioning why.
The problem here is that it has already been debated to hell because Bleach have ran for 15 years. This is not a short story or another one of Kubo's poems we are debating nor is this chapter 1 of Bleach.
People have already questioned everything they could and defended it to hell. Most of them gave the fuck up.
Nobody have the energy to bash it or analyse it any further than they need to because it has been done before and the outcome over the years had been it is bad. If you need to analyse it to that point to even give it any resemblance of good which you are doing now then the author wrote a terrible story.
Debated without a retrospective look. There's a big difference reading a story before it concludes and after. You pick up on more of the author's overarching narrative sense. I think that Bleach eventually became what Kubo wanted it to become, but in order to write that he had to make a mainstream story first. That's the same pathway every major shonen manga series takes (the only ones that don't look something like Fairy Tail).
@zeltrax225:
If you are not going to take any opinion into fact because they are of the popular/majority side there's really no point for you to debate anything.
I'm not asking you to take any opinion into fact. I'm asking you to put fact against fact and prove me wrong. I could not care less about opinions about why something was "good" or "bad" because I already know that Bleach was the shit.
@zeltrax225:
We're not a group of people saying Bleach sucks just because. We made concrete points and instead of fighting the points on the same plane or perspective, you instead used tinted lens and try to wring out any self-interpreted positivism you have of the series. Half of your proclaimed good points about Bleach requires you to overthink about it and then connect it to an interpretation that might as well be fanfiction.
I backed up everything I said with evidence. You're just not seeing it yet. Look at every single panel. I'm not hearing any "concrete points," I'm hearing whining that it "sucked because it didn't match my expectations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_realm
Read and weep. (then enjoy!)
@zeltrax225:
Aizen using the Espadas as pawns could be done in many ways more satisfactory to make a point. It's not even a strong point worth making. Are you seriously going to tell me that you thought he treated the espadas as comrades and he is proud of them?
Of course not. But he had to sell to the Espada that they had something in common and would ally together to defeat a common enemy. Some fell into delusion and saw him as this world's future savior (Zommari) and it's pretty clear that Aizen probably promised the Hollows free reign to consume as many souls as they needed (which will never be filled through consumption…only love--what a poetic symbolic end for the hungry ghosts).
@zeltrax225:
Was Aizen characterisation that badly done that you need that scene to show oh whoa he actually back stabbed people AGAIN!
Aizen's main characterization is that he is a backstabber and manipulator. Do you know what bad attempts at characterisation really is? It's when the author have to throw it at your face a dozen times.
Aizen's betrayal didn't come as a surprise because it wasn't supposed to. We knew that he was a self-interested man from the get-go. Nobody means a thing to him…not even the protege he trained from boyhood. He desires to become God and will do so at any cost.
@zeltrax225:
It's funny how you mention he brought back Byakuya for fanservice while occasionally dropping hints that you believe Kubo is trying to do something "creative" or "out of this world" and doesn't care much for fans or SJ as a whole. When it is so obvious he chickened out on his decision. There's really no way to talk out of this one. He chickened out.
If he is that creative or a smartass, he wouldn't put three popular characters in a fight with a thor wannabe just because every other captains coincidentally become useless. He's a guy that wouldn't hesitate to give Hitsugaya another power up if it can increase his ratings.
He's just showing love to the fans. In the end, Byakuya and Hitsugaya were completely inconsequential to the rest of the series after their character arcs were completed. Kubo let them live because he knew some people were only reading for them, so he gave them extra fights. I don't mind it because those moments are often short and hearken back to old Bleach battles.
@zeltrax225:
You said that the characters show wisdom. I disagree with my point that most of them are hollow pretentious words along with various characters to back up my reasoning.
That's my point. Your analysis that they are deep and wise have nothing to back up with beside your own assumptions.
How are the words "hollow" and "pretentious"? Can you elaborate on that and apply it to the series using specific text evidence? If it's easier, use something I've quoted before to try and prove me wrong.