Semantics are fun.
Dragonball Discussion
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Semantics are fun.
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My head canon is that the other Namekians revived them later…
And that they were wished back during the three-year Android training
If I cared I'd ask for evidence. I'll take your word for it.
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(Nevermind whipping boys Yamcha and Krillin)
Krillen doesn't deserve "whipping boy" status…..even if Tambourine did kick his head in and Frieza used him for fireworks.
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Krillen doesn't deserve "whipping boy" status…..even if Tambourine did kick his head in and Frieza used him for fireworks.
He's tied with Chaouzu for most deaths in the series at 3 (Tambarine, Frieza, Buu) and the most if you count Dabura turning him into a statue and GT… and really the Ginyu force cripling him in one shot should probably count too.
And for a guy that's been around since nearly the start of the series, his win record is only marginally better than Yamchas.
He beat what, his former training bully, the stinky guy (but only because he has no nose) and...? some generic fodder in the later tournaments? Characters that everyone had to get past to even get into the tournaments? Saibamen? Random goon when he arrived on Namek?
For a guy that was pretty much co-star status most of the series, he doesn't have a whole lot of victories under his belt... and none of them save Saibamen were at all impressive.
I like Krillin, we all do, but lets not pretend Charlie Brown kicked the football.
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Krillin wins in other aspects.
Like being happily married to a death robot and having a kid.
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and also miraculously growing hair
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Wasn't miraculous. He just shaved so his opponents couldn't grab it.
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I like Krillin, we all do, but lets not pretend Charlie Brown kicked the football.
This is has to be the greatest analogy for Dragon Ball I've ever seen.
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I like Krillin, we all do, but lets not pretend Charlie Brown kicked the football.
That's ice cold Robby true in some respects but ice cold.
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He beat what, his former training bully, the stinky guy (but only because he has no nose) and…? some generic fodder in the later tournaments? Characters that everyone had to get past to even get into the tournaments? Saibamen? Random goon when he arrived on Namek?
He also beat Chiaotzu.
Just Saiyan
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@Cyan:
Krillin wins in other aspects.
Like being happily married to a death robot and having a kid.
Not only married to, but seriously punching above his weight with said death robot.
Krillin's the real winner here.
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Krillin's life turned out great in the end, and even if he's died/lost a lot of times, he really grew into a significant supporting role. Surviving with Gohan against Nappa, helping Goku/Gohan/Yajirobe take down Vegeta, dragon ball quest on Namek to revive his friends, given the controller to shut down #18 to stop Cell…
Easily one of my favorite characters of the series.
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And that's not counting his track record on the first half, he went very equaly with picolo and roshi, he lost in the tournaments to finalist only.
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Since you just returned to DB what was your first thoughts on God mode ? Did it seem stupid at first ? And what do you think about ssgss
I thought it seemed stupid, yeah, but with that in mind I like how it was used in the movie. It was brief, disappeared, then weirdly enough Goku's base raised. I took this, and Goku blocking that ki blast, as a little tribute to earth's potential. Goku didn't win, but proved to be a greater fighter than expected. It made for a satisfying conclusion. Also, a like how in this movie Pan made a bigger contribution here then she did in all of GT!
The sequel? "Maybe it'll be better when I see it." I have no new complaints, but I will withold them until I see this thing myself. Though, I am disheartened, because I could have sworn the point of Frieza's defeat on Namek was that, when faced with an equal opponent he was revealed as a novice warrior. Oh, and then Trunks kills him again just cause. I would not have guessed he has this potential.:getlost:
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Too bad Frieza's dad was just chillin' out all the time. At least they could have made a movie with King Cold and his 2 sons going on a conquest together. Or at least KC and one of his sons.
At least more members ot the cast would have a chance to help out.
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Too bad Frieza's dad was just chillin' out all the time. At least they could have made a movie with King Cold and his 2 sons going on a conquest together. Or at least KC and one of his sons.
At least more members ot the cast would have a chance to help out.
It sucks even worse that he merely became fodder to Trunks. (Though in retrospect with all the shit he went through before he got there, Trunks needed that win badly.) King Cold really should've been in Cooler's place as this dude out for revenge for his son's death and Cooler should've tagged along and survived to fight in another movie. I mean, we're talking about the father of the most feared tyrant in all of the galaxy, Cold should've been a monster. I can just picture him being quite laid back and lenient compared to his son, but when the cape comes off he caves your face in.
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He also beat Chiaotzu.
Just Saiyan
He beat Chiaotzu?
That's like beating Yamcha! It counts for nothing!
Krillin did okay, but his role was consistently to stall and or lose to the guy Goku would beat. He just had a ton of screen time and was likeable so it feels like he accomplished more.
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Goku would never had gone Super Saiyan if not for Krilin.:ninja:
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In the anime there was a cool episode where Krillin was fighting against cell, if I remember it correctly, it was a real cool episode =)
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And that's not counting his track record on the first half, he went very equaly with picolo and roshi, he lost in the tournaments to finalist only.
It never quite sat well with me how Toriyama always allowed Krillin to give his foes trouble. . .but never Yamcha. Except when fighting Ten Shin Han, but then we know how that ended (broke his leg and forced to sit out the King Piccolo arc).
There's this weird idea that Yamcha became a laughing stock during Z. Ridiculous. Yamcha was a laughing stock since the first Tournament, where Roshi took him out with (literally, not making this up) his hands behind his back most of the fight, and then defeated Yamcha. . .with a wind gust. The Mummy dessecrated Yamcha. And Shin/Kami. . .man. Krillin is allowed to make even Piccolo be surprised at his level in a fight that should hype the main villain but actually doesn't, and Yamcha is made to look like a royal clown by the guy that will lose next round against Piccolo. Backwards hype? Wathever. Again, ShinKami defeats Yamcha with (again) his hands behind his back, and only Yamcha's super final secret technique can put a slight dent on his face, but absolutely no damage at all.
Toriyama hated Yamcha from day 1.
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ShinKami defeats Yamcha with (again) his hands behind his back, and only Yamcha's super final secret technique can put a slight dent on his face, but absolutely no damage at all.
Toriyama hated Yamcha from day 1.
Pretty much anyone would have lost to Shin, who would have been just short of Piccollo's power. Yajirobe did before the tournament even started, and at that point he was a formidable character on par with Tien and Goku.
Granted, it didn't need ot be Yamcha that jobbered to him, but…
(Why Mr. Popo didn't go along is questionable, but I guess all involved felt Goku had surpassed him by that point.)
I don't think its so much Toriyama hated Yamcha, much as he had roles in his head of how a character fits things, and Yamcha just naturally occurred ot him as "the guy that loses". For similar reasons Gohan couldn't be the big hero in Buu saga and Lunch was completely forgotten about..
Toriyama was very "make it up as I go along", he doesn't think about balance or respresentation of old characters the way Oda does. Just how it is.
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Pretty much anyone would have lost to Shin, who would have been just short of Piccollo's power. Yajirobe did before the tournament even started, and at that point he was a formidable character on par with Tien and Goku.
Granted, it didn't need ot be Yamcha that jobbered to him, but…
(Why Mr. Popo didn't go along is questionable, but I guess all involved felt Goku had surpassed him by that point.)
I don't think its so much Toriyama hated Yamcha, much as he had roles in his head of how a character fits things, and Yamcha just naturally occurred ot him as "the guy that loses". For similar reasons Gohan couldn't be the big hero in Buu saga and Lunch was completely forgotten about..
Toriyama was very "make it up as I go along", he doesn't think about balance or respresentation of old characters the way Oda does. Just how it is.
The thing with the roles is that beyond the generic "guy that loses" there're a lot of nuances. Rock Lee was mostly a "guy that loses", but up till the end of part I he performed decently in his fights even if he ended up losing. Who's gonna give Rock Lee the slightest of shits after he went coco bananas against Gaara? No one remembers Gaara from that fight, he did nothing. Rock Lee was super impressive even if he lost, everyone I know and that at one point followed Naruto was like "man, Rock Lee kicks so much ass!".
Krillin was like that for a while too. He loses against Roshi just like Yamcha, but if you see the execution is 100% different. Yamcha is portrayed as little more than a slight nuisance to Roshi, Krillin is taken seriously as a foe. Piccolo is constantly surprised at Krillin's resources, and at the end of the fight he believes he's murdered Krillin, who almost immediately gets up again much to Piccolo's shock. He gives up, but Toriyama clearly empowered Krillin, who gives up while smiling like "shit, I couldn't defeat him". Yamcha is, once again, treated like an amateur by Shin, and by that I mean he literally calls him an amateur while laughing taking him like a joke. Both lost, the execution was miles and miles different.
There should be a role to be played by "the guy that loses", and if it's to hype the baddie, then he must first gain a bit of credentials for that to have some effect. You can even do that with a guy that mostly loses fights if you make him look at least slightly competent whenever he fights. If you make Yamcha lose with a slight wind gust, then don't expect the public to be impressed when Mummy Man thrashes him like a ragdoll. There should've been a slight break for Yamcha here or there for him to regain at least the capability to be a hype tool. Many complain that lately Sanji has been used as a hype tool for Vergo and Doffy and little else since the TS, and yet even then 1-he's earned the right to be considered a force to be reckoned with, so when someone is at least his equal or bests him with relative ease, we're lead to believe this foe is strong, and 2- even during the most one sided of the short fights (vs. Doffy), he still got to comeback once, surprising Doffy, who admits Sanji's strength. It's a completely different treatment than Yamcha being constantly reminded that he's little more than a glorified amateur.
Like, I don't have a problem about how Yamcha loses here:
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Or here:
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Obviously, one is from a movie and the other one's filler.
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Toriyama always used Yamcha as a pun to all the pretty boy main characters on shonens. Sort of like Genos on Onepunch Man who is basically a fashionable punching bag.
He sort of changed his mind on the Android saga when he started doting Trunks, but he was already losing his touch by then.
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Like, I don't have a problem about how Yamcha loses here:
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0:38: "What happened?"
Exactly my question. -
@Bartholemew:
0:38: "What happened?"
Exactly my question.I remember in the catalan dub, Roshi said something about Bulma, and that's what distracted Yamcha. Roshi offering some puff-puff is kinda off-putting, lol. . .
Still, both Yamcha and Bora looked decent during this super short fight, even if Yamcha lost. That's what I was refering to, Yamcha can lose and NOT look like a complete clown. . .which always happens in the canon material EXCEPT the Tien fight, where Yamcha is made to look like a competent fighter, which is what he was supposed to be during the day, even if he was ultimately bested by a superior opponent. But it only happened once in the entire series.
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I remember in the catalan dub, Roshi said something about Bulma, and that's what distracted Yamcha. Roshi offering some puff-puff is kinda off-putting, lol. . .
Still, both Yamcha and Bora looked decent during this super short fight, even if Yamcha lost. That's what I was refering to, Yamcha can lose and NOT look like a complete clown. . .which always happens in the canon material EXCEPT the Tien fight, where Yamcha is made to look like a competent fighter, which is what he was supposed to be during the day, even if he was ultimately bested by a superior opponent. But it only happened once in the entire series.
Nah, his fight with god made him look very good. Not only did he unveil a completely original attack after God had already praised him a lot, but he still managed to out maneuver god with it and hit him pretty good. And this is the same god that finger flicked Goku after he had beaten Piccolo Daimao.
Oh, and yes, inventing a completely original technique is VERY impressive. Goku, in the entire run of the manga, only had one original attack (the one he used to defeat Piccolo Daimao) and he only used it then. Everything else were things that were taught to him and variations of it.
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yamcha
Well, that's far mor ein depth than I care to discuss when I'm just goofing around,(Seriously guys, I know Krillin has a decent record) but Yamcha did better against Kami than you remember.
Yes, when Shin was first on stage he got some "stumbling around surprise accident" attacks because he was trying to keep his cover but… those were clearly very intentional moves against a Yamcha that wasn't taking things seriously at all and was trying to not hurt the old man. Once it was clear it wasn't a fluke, Yamcha actually did pretty well in fight. Kami praised him quite a bit and said "yeah, in another couple years you'll have outdone me."
And again, Kami would have destroyed anyone else in the series besides Goku and Piccollo at that point, and did beat out Yajirobe... so badly that it was done off camera to hold the surprise.
Yamcha's biggest problem really was he was always in fights that were meant for Goku to win, especially in early Dragonball where the joke was pretty constantly "yeah Goku's an unstoppable monster, just how strong is he?" like when he single handedly wiped out Red Ribbon. And the general number of rounds in the tournaments meant there could only be so many fodder enemies. Most of the cast agrees at that point that Yamcha just sort of had bad luck by always facing the guys that would be the finalists... right at the start. (Who else could he have seriously faced in that last tourney? Chichi? Goku? Piccollo? Tien? Krillin?)
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Personally I think the Yamcha joke is ridiculous and has no real basis. He is a cool dude.
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yamcha-san
Dragonball is serious business, how dare you goof around when talking about the differences in the treatment of the secondary characters' fights? Shame on you!
I just re-read both fights. Krillin vs. Piccolo and Yamcha vs. Shen. Sorry, but the execution is completely different.
But it's ok, let's leave it at that.
Yamcha has
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Well, at least Toyirama didn't make repeated promises that Yamchas time would come, continue to show Yamchas self-doubt and determination to improve, or label the Android arc "Yamchas Arc" in retrospect. Because, you know, Yamcha did stuff in that arc.
Chad is the real Yamcha.
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All this Yamcha talk made me remember that time when Gintama made fun of
YamchaNamcha. -
Except I don't think he ever got hit in the crotch.
True, but at least Yamcha never got fodderized in retrospect. I don't think I've seen that with anyone but Chad, back in the Fullbring arc, where an awkward flashback showed Shuu-Chan stabbing him duing a prior skirmish. Again, in his own arc no less!
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Something I always assumed from dragonball is that the guardian of the earth is aware of everything that goes on down there and especially when the dragonballs are used. So surely the revival of frieza would have been noticed?
and then furthermore wouldn't fighters detect frieza's ki.
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Something I always assumed from dragonball is that the guardian of the earth is aware of everything that goes on down there and especially when the dragonballs are used. So surely the revival of frieza would have been noticed?
and then furthermore wouldn't fighters detect frieza's ki.
Well Frieza was brought back in pieces, so his ki signature would be the size of a grain of salt. As for Dende knowing that the dragonballs are being used, I dunno about that. They didn't really show Kami much when people were making wishes every 5 seconds.
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They let Pilof gather the balls and make a wish for… whatever reason.
I guess at that point any "take over the world" wishes wouldn't apply to Z warriors or something.
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well the skies turn black when the dragon is summoned, it's always made pretty obvious, and in other movies where the dragonballs are used by villiains it is noticed by the z fighters
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Well I know one thing, at least Yamcha wasn't Supreme Kai. Hoo boy was he a failure…
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some of Akira's other designs were pretty good. Tobal #1 had some good ones. I wouldn't have minded seeing some of them in DBZ.
Like this girl:
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Looks like alternative skin for Nappa or something.
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New DB animated series on the way, set a few years after buu. Hope it's better then GT
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This post is deleted!
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Wow, this might be good. I won't expect much, but the feeling of following episodes weekly… Nostalgic!
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Plot by Toriyama is somewhat encouraging, hopefully it's closer to a fully fleshed out story arc than a vague idea with toei filling in the blanks.
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Now people can complain about Yamcha being forgotten on a weekly basis!
I hope this expands out on the other universes thing, would explain why the 2nd movie didn't and was just a "training arc".
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Now people can keep complaining about them not reanimating Kai from scratch!
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New DB animated series on the way, set a few years after buu. Hope it's better then GT
Very interesting. I wonder how far (chronology-speaking) it will go?
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Or whether anyone not named goku or vegeta will be able to keep up.
I'm hoping at least Piccolo and Gohan. Maybe Tien to keep the human end up(nope).
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You know, even though this has the very real possibility to be mediocre, or even flat out suck, I'm pretty stoked.
I mean, Toriyama's involved, so it's gotta be better than GT, right?
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“As I read the plot [of the series] I've already received from Akira Toriyama, my dreams for this begin to expand. An enemy even stronger than Buu or Freeza may appear…”
What, even stronger? Don't tell me he/she/it is even more stronger than Beerus or Whis. How exciting.