We are at the half of the season and no sign of Bran. Does that mean we only get a teaser of him at the 10th episode and his storyline will continue next season?
Game of Thrones (tv show thread)
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We are at the half of the season and no sign of Bran. Does that mean we only get a teaser of him at the 10th episode and his storyline will continue next season?
Bran is explicitly not in this season.
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The really sad thing about Meereen is that as much time as we are spending there, there's no way Dany'll be able to solve even half of its problems before she inevitably has to leave for Westeros. The best case scenario is she leaves someone competent in charge after she leaves.
If she can manage it, it might be best ruled as like a vassal state.
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I liked Barristan but unfortunely two people cannot take the role of Queen's advisor. There would be too much clashing and not getting anywhere if both Barristan and Tyrion were whispering in Dany's ear. At least that's what it seems to me with Tyrion being set up for such a role in the show.
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Tyrion is probably well required at this point before Meereen results in some sort of a civil war but Danerys is not going to trust him that easily yet.
I am actually looking forward to how Danerys is going to manage Meereen after she decides to turn towards Westeros. She needs someone who is not a strategist or a fighter but someone who got the skills to manage a city while she is gone. I don't see any good contenders for that as of now frankly. Not very sure if it is addressed in the book already
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! The doom of Valyria reminded me of Atlantis and its legend. From the poem that Tyrion was saying, it seemed like some sort of a volcano destroyed it. I also kind of started liking Stannis after a while now. He seems to show a more mature and human side of him in the past couple of episodes
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@xan:
! The doom of Valyria reminded me of Atlantis and its legend. From the poem that Tyrion was saying, it seemed like some sort of a volcano destroyed it. I also kind of started liking Stannis after a while now. He seems to show a more mature and human side of him in the past couple of episodes
Valyria was sort of a combination of Ancient Greece and Rome. It was an empire with a powerful navy and army that clashed with many neighboring civilizations and established outposts and colonies that grew into cities in their own right, like most of the Nine Free Cities of Essos. It was also a democracy with lots of dragons destroyed Essos's Persia equivalent and ancestor of Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen: Old Ghis.
The Doom of Valyria was the simultaneous eruption of fourteen volcanoes on the Valyrian peninsula as well as powerful earthquakes triggered by those volcanoes. Supposedly there were mage in Valyria who had used spells to temper and harness the volcanoes' power for centuries, but those spells became weakened or overwhelmed, leading to the geothermal damn bursting all at once.
The heart of the largest and most advanced civilization was incinerated in a single day, leaving a power vacuum among the remaining outposts and ushering the known world into a Dark Age for magic. As Jora mentioned, the remains of Valyria, now rent by the Smoking Sea, remained abandoned and avoided for the past 400 or so years.
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! Drogo, Ser Barristan and now Jorah. Some great warriors suffered and/or lost their lifes for Dany. And I guess she will make it count. On the other hand, I like how Stannis knows too well what is at stake in the far north. Seeing the bigger picture he could use Sansa and Jon somehow to unite the north against a bigger enemy. After Roose and Ramsey are out of the way, naturally.
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Valyria was sort of a combination of Ancient Greece and Rome. It was an empire with a powerful navy and army that clashed with many neighboring civilizations and established outposts and colonies that grew into cities in their own right, like most of the Nine Free Cities of Essos. It was also a democracy with lots of dragons destroyed Essos's Persia equivalent and ancestor of Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen: Old Ghis.
Carthage equivalent.
And while there's parallels to Rome (Greece not really at all), I think he's right that there's a bit of Atlantis in there too.
The whole vanishing civilization aspect, in a semi-mythical event to boot.! Oddly and probably I'm just seeing things, but the ruins at parts looked almost Khmer of all things lol.
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Fun fact: Before the Doom, Valyria was centered on a rather large peninsula. Now it looks like this.
The Doom was so devastating that in the books (where Tyrion just sort of sails around it), the sky around Valyria is still blood-red 400 years later.
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@Monkey:
Carthage equivalent.
And while there's parallels to Rome (Greece not really at all), I think he's right that there's a bit of Atlantis in there too.
The whole vanishing civilization aspect, in a semi-mythical event to boot.! Oddly and probably I'm just seeing things, but the ruins at parts looked almost Khmer of all things lol.
Most of the parallels are certainly stronger to Rome. The Greek part is mostly due to the geography of the peninsula, the way that Slaver's Bay bears stronger resemblances to the Middle East than to Northern Africa, and that I see shades of the city of Rome in Volantis. Might just be me. The Atlantis part is certainly valid but it also has an actual historical basis as well.
! Dunno why they made it look so different. I think it was just to emphasize the wild and mystical aspect of the scene.
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Old Ghis is the Carthage equivalent due to being a) the big main old rival of the Rome equivalent that the Rome equivalent swallows to become a world power and b) apparently being very much older than Valyria, tying into Carthage's roots in Phoenicia.
Of course, north Africa never had a bunch of slaving assholes pretending to be Carthaginians despite the Carthaginian language being long dead and all traces of Carthaginian culture being erased, but hey Martin likes remixing history as opposed to just straight copying it.
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Most of the parallels are certainly stronger to Rome. The Greek part is mostly due to the geography of the peninsula,
The geography of the peninsula is kind of irrelevant given it's supposed to have been horribly disfigured during the Doom though. So now it just kinda looks like a lumpy peninsula that might as well be Italian or Greek or whatever really. It doesn't look particularly like anywhere irl, let alone Greece.
The main paralell you seem to be trying for is the "big deal that vanished suddenly" which is an old and heavily flawed description of Rome any way you look at it.
Sure it's a common misconception, but Martin knows his shit enough to not be modeling a Rome that way.the way that Slaver's Bay bears stronger resemblances to the Middle East than to Northern Africa,
That's a funny thing to say considering North Africa is also part of the Middle East culturally and historically. Including Carthage which was founded and evolved from a Phoenician colony. Slaver's Bay has a general Antiquity appearance, which fits with the vibe you're also arguing from let alone me. And the massive slaving thing bears resemblance as well to the Barbary States. Which like the Slaver's Bay area was not a united state but a bunch of city states and their hinterland.
Astapor, Mereen, and Yunkai might as well be…Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli.Nothing about it resembles Persia, unless your basing it off 300's ridiculous depiction of the Persians.
The only strongly Middeast proper thing I see with it is the ziggurat architecture.
and that I see shades of the city of Rome in Volantis. Might just be me.
The free cities in general look Italian and Greek, in the mold of a mix of Greek city states and Renaissance Italian city states.
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Architecturally I somehow got more ancient Central American civilization vibes.
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@Monkey:
Because you saw stepped pyramids, aka ziggurats.
Which were also (and firstly) a thing in the super ancient middle east among the Mesopotamian civilizations.Also the details in the rock carving and the jungle setting.
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Also the details in the rock carving and the jungle setting.
What jungle setting?
Are you talking about! Valyria or the Slaver Cities?
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Well killing off Ser Barristan didn't really sit well with me.
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@Monkey:
The geography of the peninsula is kind of irrelevant given it's supposed to have been horribly disfigured during the Doom though. So now it just kinda looks like a lumpy peninsula that might as well be Italian or Greek or whatever really. It doesn't look particularly like anywhere irl, let alone Greece.
The main paralell you seem to be trying for is the "big deal that vanished suddenly" which is an old and heavily flawed description of Rome any way you look at it.
Sure it's a common misconception, but Martin knows his shit enough to not be modeling a Rome that way.The "suddenly disappeared" part is by far the strongest parallel to Atlantis, not Rome. Valyria fought a series of wars with a Carthage-like rival, as I'll concede, formed the largest empire to that point in history, and was the height of civilization and culture. If for nothing else, Valyria was known for their network of pristine roads that are still used in the present.
@Monkey:
That's a funny thing to say considering North Africa is also part of the Middle East culturally and historically. Including Carthage which was founded and evolved from a Phoenician colony. Slaver's Bay has a general Antiquity appearance, which fits with the vibe you're also arguing from let alone me. And the massive slaving thing bears resemblance as well to the Barbary States. Which like the Slaver's Bay area was not a united state but a bunch of city states and their hinterland.
Astapor, Mereen, and Yunkai might as well be…Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli.Nothing about it resembles Persia, unless your basing it off 300's ridiculous depiction of the Persians.
The only strongly Middeast proper thing I see with it is the ziggurat architecture.
The free cities in general look Italian and Greek, in the mold of a mix of Greek city states and Renaissance Italian city states.
Alright, you've convinced me. I'm not so set in stone about to keep bitching about it. I suppose it also makes a little more sense in meshing the two with Qarth's depiction , as a sort of Constantinople/Baghdad-like cosmopolitan city and gateway between the east and west halves of Essos.
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@Monkey:
What jungle setting?
Are you talking about! Valyria or the Slaver Cities?
Oh, sorry. I meant the former.
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Ramsay is a piece of shit, and all i want on this earth is for Sansa and Theon to team up and murder him.
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The "suddenly disappeared" part is by far the strongest parallel to Atlantis, not Rome. Valyria fought a series of wars with a Carthage-like rival, as I'll concede, formed the largest empire to that point in history, and was the height of civilization and culture. If for nothing else, Valyria was known for their network of pristine roads that are still used in the present.
Largest empire in the known world! Pretty sure extra material mentions Yi Ti (Notchina) is real big but that western people aren't really sure about it.
I suppose it also makes a little more sense in meshing the two with Qarth's depiction , as a sort of Constantinople/Baghdad-like cosmopolitan city and gateway between the east and west halves of Essos.
Qarth was strictly Baghdad. It was farther away then the Slaver's Bay so I don't see the Constantinople parallels as the Asia/Europe bridge.
King's Landing kinda reminds me of Constantinople visually though and in how it's that one city people keep trying to gain legitimacy from conquering.
Except in this case Constantinople is moved to Great Britainfrancegermanyscotlandspain, and is how William I Targaryan conquers the Anglo-Saxons.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Oh have I mentioned that the reason this is a better and fresher series than like 80% of fantasy since LOTR is because he actually bases most of his ideas off actual history and folklore, instead of basing most of his ideas off LOTR without knowing Tolkein based most of his ideas after history and folklore lol?
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Valyrian architecture seems to have more than one source. I've never seen arching Khmer aqueducts. Peaked tops towers supported by columns. They were clearly taking from a lot of places as they should be. They were a society that ruled from the sky. I imagined in it's prime the towers were insanely high and the more important the structure the higher up it would be.
I'm not sure what they're doing with Sansa/Ramsay. It's perfectly Ramsay to make Theon apologize for killing her brothers but makes no sense with his dad also killed her brother and mother. Also Brienne is waiting nearby so i feel like for that gun to be used Sansa can't be safe.
I do like that Jorah has grayscale because I despise him. I hope he dies painfully.
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@Monkey:
Largest empire in the known world! Pretty sure extra material mentions Yi Ti (Notchina) is real big but that western people aren't really sure about it.
Qarth was strictly Baghdad. It was farther away then the Slaver's Bay so I don't see the Constantinople parallels as the Asia/Europe bridge.
King's Landing kinda reminds me of Constantinople visually though and in how it's that one city people keep trying to gain legitimacy from conquering.
Except in this case Constantinople is moved to Great Britainfrancegermanyscotlandspain, and is how William I Targaryan conquers the Anglo-Saxons.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Oh have I mentioned that the reason this is a better and fresher series than like 80% of fantasy since LOTR is because he actually bases most of his ideas off actual history and folklore, instead of basing most of his ideas off LOTR without knowing Tolkein based most of his ideas after history and folklore lol?
Man, everything east of the Bones sounds so cool. The Yi Ti of legends supposedly stretched between the Shivering and Jade Seas and covered basically all the known lands east of the Bones. Accounts of recorded history are obviously smaller since the Golden Empire has waned since the Long Night. Looking at the map though, I think Valyria at it's height was just as big if not bigger, and the Seven Kingdoms are around the same size too. Of course, this all depends on which map we're using. Did the show switch over to the Lands of Ice and Fire world map or is it still using the one they guessed at?
Does Asshai have a historical counterpart? Like, Japan? Or Australia and full of criminals?
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Does Asshai have a historical counterpart? Like, Japan? Or Australia and full of criminals?
Asshai sounds so completely fantastical that no.
It's EVIL DARK CITY SCARY PEOPLE WEIRD.
Maybe there's something from folklore somewhere but that's not my field. -
Asshai is Mordor on steroids.
"There are no children in Asshai", indeed.
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Asshai is a Metal album cover.
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@Monkey:
Asshai is a Metal album cover.
Pre much
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Looks Black Metalish.
Asshai is Oslo. -
During work I had a random, but funny thought: what if Sansa takes Pod as her husband? After all the shit she's taken over the series it would be kind of nice to see such a nice fellow by her side.
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@Yuugi's:
During work I had a random, but funny thought: what if Sansa takes Pod as her husband? After all the shit she's taken over the series it would be kind of nice to see such a nice fellow by her side.
I beleive Tyrion would hook up with her (again) at the end but that's just my guess. Pod actually doesn't have any solid objective in life it would just be hilarious if it worked out that way
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Sansa has a future as de facto shadow queen puppet master of the Vale and the North to look forward to, no need for marriage to weigh her down.
Tyrion will finally accept that the gods have decreed that he isn't allowed to be happily married and settles down in Casterly Rock with literal hordes of prostitutes at his beck and call.
Pod will be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and is therefore unmarriable.
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SanSan is truth. That is all.
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Kill the Boy has now been added to Valar Morghulis for me as a quotable line.
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My sweet summer child…
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I swear with each passing episode in this season, I am warming up to Stannis immensely (it also helps that Davos is probably the most likeable guy out there). I figured he would be more of a dick, but he's gotten to be a pretty stand-up guy (with the reverse happening with Danys…dear god my opinion of her sank immensely). It also helps that his theme song is pretty kickass (not sure why I didn't notice that until now)
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Alright, a suitable amount of time has passed. What're everyone's opinions on Daenerys's actions this episode? I thought they were erratic and poorly justified by the show, but I'm eager to hear what people who haven't read the books think.
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So Stannis burns people alive on a regular basis for anything from not changing to his Red God (burned his maester alive for that) or simply to gain more power. He was going to burn Gendry alive in case you guys have forgotten. Anyway that's the kind of person he is but you give him some nice talking scenes and WOW what a guy he is. I can see why you're warming up to him.
Dany burns one person alive as retribution for basically having her King's Hand murdered in the streets like a dog. And let's face it, if the Son's of the Harpy are like the KKK then their leaders are most likely among the most powerful noble families. And that's erratic, poorly justified, and your opinion of her sinks immensely.
I don't understand you people..
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Stanis has a moral code, who he follows sternly, Daenerys is swayed by whatever comes her way day to day.
Stanis is trying to save the world by stopping a zombie apocalypse, Daenerys is staying in mereen, trying to impose her morals to others, even when releasing the slaves was right, staying to rule them is… Questionable.
Stanis is the underdog , so far removed from any possibility of wining that he endears to people, Daenerys managed to luck herself into weapons of mass destruction.
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Also, there is the issue of her going against baristan wishes of:
No execution without trials
No becoming the mad kingShe's a penis away from being a mad king.
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She really needs tyrion fast. lol. Also, Stanis is awesome.^^
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Initially I was pretty apprehensive of Stannis for being an overall prick (not working things out with Remly though in retrospect Remly less of a case than Stannis, kinda kicking around Davos a bit, creepy Blood Magic, almost sacrificing Gendry, etc…).
But compared to the other contenders, Stannis has been making a lot of the right moves (it probably helps that he listens to Melisandre and Davos), actually has legitimate rights to the throne, seems to have the wellbeing of the Seven Kingdoms in mind (by taking on the zombies at least), actually acknowledges the Wildlings a potentially useful asset (but again...for a price), and sticks to his principals. Also he has major man points for being the first to land on Blackwater Bay and climb up the ladder (and the fact that he recovers from losing this battle is also a testament to his awesomeness). Initially I was kinda "meh" to him but lately, he seems to be doing remarkably well and only JUST got empathy points for that one scene with his daughter. So yeah...major props to awesome Stannis.
Danys on the other hand....ehh....
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Neither Renly nor Stannis would make good kings at the start, but Renly never got the chance Stannis did to get character development.
Dany could have solved all her problems if she just decimated the slaver class to begin with. You can't expect former slaveowners and former slaves to be anywhere near equal. This isn't even getting into the fact that as a Valyrian, Dany has more of a shared cultural background with the Slaver's Bay cities than she does Westeros (Ghiscari culture is long dead; the Slaver cities are doing 1:1 Valyrian stuff just with harpies plastered everywhere.)
So Stannis burns people alive on a regular basis for anything from not changing to his Red God (burned his maester alive for that) or simply to gain more power. He was going to burn Gendry alive in case you guys have forgotten. Anyway that's the kind of person he is but you give him some nice talking scenes and WOW what a guy he is. I can see why you're warming up to him.
When did he burn Maester Cressen? And Stannis didn't burn people alive for not converting, that's all on his wife. Gendry was going to be burned because Mel believes that his king's blood could fuel a spell to release a dragon that could turn the tide against the White Walkers (note that Davos is completely against it and Stannis himself isn't exactly happy about it but reasons it that one guy's life is nothing compared to the millions in Westeros the ritual would save.
Stannis doesn't give a real shit about any gods (they all died in his mind when his parents died in view of Storm's End), he's going along with Mel because like it or not she's right with her predictions (at least the one's she interprets correctly.) Three leeches into the fire - bam, Joffrey and Robb are dead (and Balon is for some reason still alive but honestly I doubt they're going to do anything with him so we can act like he died.) The one time Stannis doesn't bring Mel with him, to the Blackwater? He loses, badly. He has reason to put stock into what Mel's spouting.
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One could argue that Dany is hella young and pretty unexperienced in comparison to Stannis when it comes to leading and stuff.
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@Cyan:
Neither Renly nor Stannis would make good kings at the start, but Renly never got the chance Stannis did to get character development.
Dany could have solved all her problems if she just decimated the slaver class to begin with. You can't expect former slaveowners and former slaves to be anywhere near equal. This isn't even getting into the fact that as a Valyrian, Dany has more of a shared cultural background with the Slaver's Bay cities than she does Westeros (Ghiscari culture is long dead; the Slaver cities are doing 1:1 Valyrian stuff just with harpies plastered everywhere.)
When did he burn Maester Cressen? And Stannis didn't burn people alive for not converting, that's all on his wife. Gendry was going to be burned because Mel believes that his king's blood could fuel a spell to release a dragon that could turn the tide against the White Walkers (note that Davos is completely against it and Stannis himself isn't exactly happy about it but reasons it that one guy's life is nothing compared to the millions in Westeros the ritual would save.
Stannis doesn't give a real shit about any gods (they all died in his mind when his parents died in view of Storm's End), he's going along with Mel because like it or not she's right with her predictions (at least the one's she interprets correctly.) Three leeches into the fire - bam, Joffrey and Robb are dead (and Balon is for some reason still alive but honestly I doubt they're going to do anything with him so we can act like he died.) The one time Stannis doesn't bring Mel with him, to the Blackwater? He loses, badly. He has reason to put stock into what Mel's spouting.
He did burn that one guy for refusing to burn something, something of the seven at the beginning of season 4 I believe.
Book comparisons:! It's pretty much my most hated show change for Stannis. He's also more of a believer in the show compared to the books.
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Stanis has a moral code, who he follows sternly, Daenerys is swayed by whatever comes her way day to day.
More than any main contender on this show (aside from Joffrey lol) Danerys is young and wasn't even caring about throne shit at the start. She's the one we're actually watching formulate into some sort of mature form. Whereas Stannis is like 50 or whatever and has clearly mostly had himself figured out until Melisandre showed up.
Extremely different characters.Stanis is trying to save the world by stopping a zombie apocalypse, Daenerys is staying in mereen, trying to impose her morals to others, even when releasing the slaves was right, staying to rule them is… Questionable.
She's staying to try and make sure it doesn't relapse into slavery again or fall to a petty dictator like already happened to the other two cities after she left.
Seriously, I don't know how much you know about the American Civil War, but they're definitely basing a lot of the Mareen plot on the aftermath in the South.
Taggerung is dead accurate on the KKK comparison. She isn't picking on random powerless nobles.Also, there is the issue of her going against baristan wishes of:
No execution without trials
No becoming the mad kingShe's a penis away from being a mad king.
What did she do in this episode that has you guys so riled up 0_o??
Also when did Stanis hold trials lol. Is he the mad king too? -
Won't someone think of the poor slavers????? Denied justice, does Dany think they're her slaves or something??????
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Dany burns one person alive as retribution for basically having her King's Hand murdered in the streets like a dog. And let's face it, if the Son's of the Harpy are like the KKK then their leaders are most likely among the most powerful noble families. And that's erratic, poorly justified, and your opinion of her sinks immensely.
Not true. My opinion of her was never good to begin with
My problem is less with the dragon scene, which I do think was poorly handled but still somewhat justifiable, and more with the fact that she zigzags so heavily in this episode with very little reasoning behind it. Her closest advisor was just murdered in an alley, so she goes for revenge at the likely power structure behind it. Fine. But then she decides to reverse course entirely to marry Hizdhar and open the fighting pits with very little explanation in between. There's no indication how marriage might help the situation, and the fighting pits might be symbolic but that symbol seems to be only loosely connected to the Sons of the Harpy.
Listening to your advisors and then ignoring them to do whatever the hell you want does NOT make you a good leader. Increased agency for the character is great and all but at least discuss the possible ramifications with your advisors. The only thing to be gained by not doing so is cheap TV surprise.
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The difference is that in Stanis cases, when he pases judgment, it's made as obvious as possible that these men deserved to die (Renly was an assassination though) for betraying him, or invading the seven kingdoms. This guy tried to surrender in his name, can't deny the letters, dead. This guy tried to raise an army of free folk and storm the wall and conquer the norht, don't take the bargain plea, dead.
The cruel part is the fire, but these dead were traitors.
On the other hand, Daenerys had killed the other masters in retribution for the children. Hildarz, who has been stupidly honest, claims that she even crucifixed masters that oposed to the cruel acts. And now she kills another, how did he pick him? who was him? did she learn anything from him? I don't care enough to rewatch it.
Going through what was stated, there were slaves who were more confortable with their past lives than as freed men and women, mainly the artesans, the artist, the prostitutes and the pit fighters, while the last ones are out of natural selection any pit fighter that survives is a happy pit fighter, the other castes had better life before. She broke everything, without thinking about what to replace it, she's trying to be both mother and conquerer, and it's anoying.
And reading a random review… They replaced the city of the stone men with Valyria? Realy? ugh.
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Yeah I'm sure those slave prostitutes were totally happy and consenting in their slavery.
Also maybe it's just me but it's really goddamn retarded to think that slavers should be treated the exact same way as former slaves. The US gov't tried that during Reconstruction, and look at the South now.
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@Cyan:
Yeah I'm sure those slave prostitutes were totally happy and consenting in their slavery.
Not happy, happier. Some of them tried to sell themselves back into prostitution, because multiple reasons.
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Whatever, they were socially conditioned to prefer being slaves. Forget the prostitutes. Artesans, Artist and Teachers slaves, they'd rather be slaves of these professions that terrible merchants or dirt farmers.