Chapter 781: "Long-Cherished Desire"
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The strawhats were seen as bad pirates trying to kill Iceburg. That was resolved. The whole point of Water seven was to find out who shot Iceburg and why Robin was involved. That was resolved as well.
Water 7 didn't have a resolution. That's why it's not an arc of its own.
The point of Water 7 was definitely not only that. The Straw Hats spent most o fWater 7 trying to get Robin back, which they only managed to do at Enies Lobby.
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I guess Impel Down and Marineford is 1 arc to you as well - after all, rescuing Ace was the main objective and wasn't resolved until the end of the war.
The different antagonists and major change of cast members is what makes these a different arc.
This is the definition of an over-arching saga.
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Water 7 didn't have a resolution. That's why it's not an arc of its own.
The point of Water 7 was definitely not only that. The Straw Hats spent of the water 7 trying to get Robin back, which they only managed to do at Enies Lobby.
annnnnd Luffy spent all of Impel down trying to get Ace back, which he only managed to do at Marineford. you haven't read anything of the last pages did you?
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@Galaxy:
The different antagonists and major change of cast members is what makes these a different arc.
This is the definition of an over-arching saga.
BULLSHIT!
Ekhm. Sorry, I always have one of those when someone tries to push their arbitrary, subjective beliefs as actual truths.
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Couldn't you say the same thing about Whiskey Peak? Some time into the arc the goal became "help Vivi take her kingdom back". This wasn't resolved until Arabasta. There was never any real main plot because the crew just got onto the island, partied and napped, and once Zoro began fighting the bounty hunters it wasn't long before the real main plot was revealed. So it's much the same as finding out partway into Water 7 that the real goal is to get Robin back. Some plot elements were resolved in Water 7, namely the Straw Hats finding the real assassins and clearing their own names and beef with Iceburg. But the main wasn't until later. Just the same, in Whiskey Peak, Zoro did beat up the bounty hunters and prevented them from killing the crew but the resolution to the real plot never happened until Arabasta.
I've never seen anyone say Whiskey Peak isn't an arc, though.
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@Galaxy:
The different antagonists and major change of cast members is what makes these a different arc.
This is the definition of an over-arching saga.
You cannot just change the criteria as you see fit.. But really nothing will change your mind, and nothing will change mine, so let's just stop, so we can get a more interesting topic to the table.
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BULLSHIT!
Ekhm. Sorry, I always have one of those when someone tries to push their arbitrary, subjective beliefs as actual truths.
Why are you replying after saying you wouldn't reply anymore?
Make up your mind.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
You cannot just change the criteria as you see fit..
This has been part of the criteria from the start.
But yes, I agree with the latter half of your post.
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"b-but Impel down had different antagonists…"
yes, and Enies lobby had new antagonists as well, new place, and new settings. Everything new!
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and Enies lobby had new antagonists as well
No it didn't. The exact same antagonists carried over and were just expanded.
While Magellan, Hannyabal, and the Impel Down staff didn't carry over and were exclusive to Impel Down.
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@Galaxy:
No it didn't. The exact same antagonists carried over and were just expanded.
While Magellan, Hannyabal, and the Impel Down staff didn't carry over and were exclusive to Impel Down.
new CP9 members + Spandam officially introduced + giants + random marines + vice admirals at the Buster call. It was EXCLUSIVE to Enies lobby.
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new CP9 members + Spandam officially introduced + giants + random marines + vice admirals at the Buster call. It was EXCLUSIVE to Enies lobby.
So the sudden arrival of Marines on the Sabaody Archipelago makes it a new arc? Got it.
Plot points carry over unresolved, antagonists are left undefeated, and questions are still left unanswered. That's it, and all I plan on saying on this matter.
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@Galaxy:
Why are you replying after saying you wouldn't reply anymore?
Make up your mind.
Sorry, you managed to touch a nerve. Again.
Gonna go back to my studies.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Though I quite curious how Smoker fits into your little theory.
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@Galaxy:
So the sudden arrival of Marines on the Sabaody Archipelago makes it a new arc? Got it.
Goddamn, what are you talking about now? Kizaru and the marines are part of Shabondy arc, let's say "rising action" since we need to use proper words now.
The hundred of marines at Enies lobby and the giants, it was their turf, it was the settings of the arc.
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The hundred of marines at Enies lobby and the giants, it was their turf, it was the settings of the arc.
Your point?
New characters introduced in the middle of an arc is nothing new. All the characters you mentioned are part of that whole arc.
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The main reason to even go to Water 7 was to find a shipwright, which only joined after Enies Lobby
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Noah is the longest arc with unmeasurable proportions.
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Best post in awhile. -
@uniaka:
I don't think we saw meadows cut or defeated by hakuba.
We saw Hakuba lay waste to the entire block, and we saw Meadows down.
I think we can safely come to the conclusion that Meadows fell victim to The Whirlwind of Rommel.
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Impel Down had a beginning, middle and end. It was part of a larger saga, but it was a contained arc of its own. It introduced, and defeated, its own antagonists and ended with Magellan beaten, and the pirates free, which led into the next arc. It was part of the larger saga, just as Amazon Lilly was… and that wrapped up its relatively few threads pretty neatly. Even Sabondy had a start middle and end... it wasn't a triumphant end, but it did reach a climax point that wrapped the current story threads to lead into the next.
Water 7 meanwhile didn't resolve any of its plot points until Enies Lobby, (Robin, Franky, Merry, Cp9, the ancient weapon, Usopp leaving the crew) and even after that, it still returned right back to Water 7 to do a lengthy wrap up. Enies Lobby was not its own arc, it was a different location within the same arc, within just a few hours of travel.
No one tries to divide Syrup village into two arcs based on one bit of action being at Kaya's house, another being by the beach, and another being in the woods do they? Kuro is the villain of his arc, and then goes undefeated until after the setup and beach invasion. Django and the Meowban brothers aren't introduced until later so thats clearly marks the start of a new arc, right? No. That's silly and its obvious why thats silly because the arc is overall short. Similarly you wouldn't say Arabasta is multiple arcs, even though they travelled all over the country and visited multiple cities in that one. (But Whisky Peak, Laboon, Little Garden and Drum are a part of that saga... but those all have their own beginnign, middles, and ends.)
Is the distinction clear? Good. Now move on.
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annnnnd Luffy spent all of Impel down trying to get Ace back, which he only managed to do at Marineford. you haven't read anything of the last pages did you?
Impel Down had a resolution though, regardless of Ace's fate. That's the point.
Finding out who shot Iceburg and Robin's involvement in that incident didn't really resolve anything, it just raised more questions and plot points (that were solved at Enies Lobby).
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Guys, please take this to questions that don't deserve their own thread.
It's stunningly off topic.
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Guys, please take this to questions that don't deserve their own thread.
It's stunningly off topic.
Yes, but people seem to keep posting about it.
Impel Down had a beginning, middle and end. It was part of a larger saga, but it was a contained arc of its own. It introduced, and defeated, its own antagonists and ended with Magellan beaten, and the pirates free, which led into the next arc. It was part of the larger saga, just as Amazon Lilly was… and that wrapped up its relatively few threads pretty neatly. Even Sabondy had a start middle and end... it wasn't a triumphant end, but it did reach a climax point that wrapped the current story threads to lead into the next.
Water 7 meanwhile didn't resolve any of its plot points until Enies Lobby, (Robin, Franky, Merry, Cp9, the ancient weapon, Usopp leaving the crew) and even after that, it still returned right back to Water 7 to do a lengthy wrap up. Enies Lobby was not its own arc, it was a different location within the same arc, within just a few hours of travel.
No one tries to divide Syrup village into two arcs based on one bit of action being at Kaya's house, another being by the beach, and another being in the woods do they? Kuro is the villain of his arc, and then goes undefeated until after the setup and beach invasion. Django and the Meowban brothers aren't introduced until later so thats clearly marks the start of a new arc, right? No. That's silly and its obvious why thats silly because the arc is overall short. Similarly you wouldn't say Arabasta is multiple arcs, even though they travelled all over the country and visited multiple cities in that one. (But Whisky Peak, Laboon, Little Garden and Drum are a part of that saga... but those all have their own beginnign, middles, and ends.)
Is the distinction clear? Good. Now move on.
I too can make up criteria for the definition of arcs.
Water 7 also had a beggining and an end, and plot points have nothing to do with this or the definition of arcs. This will definitely be my last post on this matter, but everyone who states that plot points needs to be resolved and antagonists defeated for it to be a standalone arc, have a weird and seemingly inconsistent, when you look to other similar situations, definition of what a story arc is. And there will never be a consensus, unless we get a clear definition everyone agrees on. I think mine is correct, and other people think theirs are correct, so let's just drop it.
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I too can make up criteria for the definition of arcs.
Heh, don't worry, Robby isn't the "voice of truth" (even if he acts like it), not so long ago he said that Oda wasn't going to draw a tournament because "One Piece in itself is a tournament". Then we got the Colosseum tournament.
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Heh, don't worry, Robby isn't the "voice of truth" (even if he acts like it), not so long ago he said that Oda wasn't going to draw a tournament because "One Piece in itself is a tournament". Then we got the Colosseum tournament.
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That was assumed at the very very start of the arc before it was clear just how long this arc was going be. (Two years and counting.) Had he kept the focus just on chasing Dofla, yes, he would have skimped on that and just had it as a background detail. Similarly, while I'm still pretty sure the next cover story will be Monet and Vergo, the predicted timing on that is thrown off by again, how long this arc is and it tying so directly into the previous. Ditto for any predictions that were circulating two years ago about Dofla taking longer than the one arc to defeat…because we had no idea this was going to be a two year+ stop. (I did correctly predict that Wadatsumi would be part of the next cover story after Fishman Island wrapped up. Didn't guess Jinbe as the star of it, but knew the giant would be part of one.) I can only study and predict based on what's presented and what's available and Oda's pretty consistent track record. ANd my accuracy is generally pretty good. Cases where Oda takes what could be a 4 month mini-arc and stretches it for over two years into a behemoth is atypical.
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He didn't do a typical tournament. He drew several giant free for alls, rather than the typical 1 on 1 structure for multiple rounds that everything else has done since Dragonball, and which is what he hinted he was doing at the start. He eliminated the 1-on-1 boss fights round entirely and still just had a large free-for-all even in the last match... that Luffy wasn't even involved in. He used a couple bits of the expectation around such an event, and played with them, but didn't do the same thing as you see in Dragonball, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Naruto, or what's going on at this very moment in Shokugeki no Soma or Hero Academy, where its a long series of one on one battles leading to an inevitable final round you can predict forty chapters in advance. (And then most of the guys prarticipating have gone on to continue being part of the giant chaos free for all against Doflamingo... outside of the tournament!)
What happened at the Colosseum was A tournament yes, but it wasn't in any fashion the same sort that has plagued all Shonen for the last 20 years. It wasn't a typical tournament anymore than Enel's elimination game, Davy Back, the Boa sisters, or Doflamingo's elimination game was.
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AP at it again…. I'm off to work and be back when spoiler is out in 2days or less time.
Big MoM ate - 2012
CC for nakama.
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AP at it again…. I'm off to work and be back when spoiler is out in 2days or less time.
Thnx for the memo.
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Oh look, my least favorite debate. At least with power levels people can have fun being dumb about it.
Hasn't Oda said that he only thinks of the story in terms of sagas? Pretty sure "arc" is a term applied by fans, which explains why it doesn't always fit properly. There's a reason we refer to localized sections of One Piece by the island name but larger sagas by the overarching plot.
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Bet Law is gonna wake up, create another room with life spawn and beat up Trébol while Luffy and Doffy are still looking at each other.
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Impel Down had a resolution though, regardless of Ace's fate. That's the point.
Finding out who shot Iceburg and Robin's involvement in that incident didn't really resolve anything, it just raised more questions and plot points (that were solved at Enies Lobby).
Water Seven had more or less as much of a resolution as Impel Down. It resolved internal plots but left the resolution of overarching ones for later. In both cases the main plot running through both is simply transferred to the next area. It's about saving Robin - it's about saving Ace. Impel Down's internal plot was simply to get through all its traps and obstacles to save Ace. Water 7's internal plot was to find out what Robin was up to and get her back. In both cases Luffy failed and had to move on to a new location with some new allies on his side. The only difference is that Impel Down had different people under the WG trying to stop Luffy. Otherwise the main character, his objective and (nearly) his allies all carried over and it's still the WG as the main villain. There was no "internal main plot", for the lack of a better term, of Impel Down such as the giants' fight in Little Garden, or Caesar's experiments on Punk Hazard. It was the same exact plot as Marineford - save Ace from WG - in a different location. The antagonist is the same entity, merely wearing a different face. So the only real difference between ID and W7 is that between ID and MF all the individuals among the antagonists were replaced by others (while still coming from the same overall entity) while from W7 to EL some new individuals among the antagonists were added (while still coming from the same overall entity). That can not possibly be the deciding factor as to whether one is a real arc and the other is somehow not. I understand the notion that Magellan was the antagonist and he was defeated in that he failed to stop the prison break, but he's merely one limb of the body of the main antagonist of the save Ace plot, the World Government.
And Water 7 did resolve its own internal plot points, much like ID. It resolved the friction between the Straw Hats, Iceberg/Galley-La and the whole city. Solved the attempted murder mystery. It answered what Robin was up to and got rid of the SHs' doubts. It set them free from the chains that had bound them so they could next move on and save their friend. These were all internal parts of W7 much like Mr. 2's resolve and actions and escaping Magellan were internal parts of Impel Down. But neither arc resolved any overarching plot points. They wouldn't, because they're both set-up arcs for the climax and post-fighting calm that will eventually resolve them.
It's helpful to look toward Amazon Lily to clarify the distinction. AL did have its own internal main plot, which was cleanly resolved and progressed us a step further in the saga's plot. Both arcs and sagas have main plots, but sometimes the main plot of the saga is put aside for an arc to have its own main plot. Little Garden is an example, Drum is another. So too with AL and PH but not with Impel Down, Water 7 and Whiskey Peak (last one being the most arguable). For me that makes the latter three set-up arcs. Their purpose is to set up the coming arc, but they are still arcs of their own. When you make the argument about vital plot points not being resolved, this is basically the core of that. An internal main plot will always be resolved. That in a sense is what a story arc is. But some "arcs" don't have internal main plots; the main plot of the overarching saga is inserted as their main plot directly. ID and W7 are both such arcs. The same exact plot ran through them, merely changing locations because Luffy failed to get the job done in the first location. Either that should mean that neither is an arc of their own, or both ought to be considered set-up arcs.
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Are we seriously arguing over what the definition of an 'arc' is? Jesus we need a new chapter.
Andy Dalton the GOAT.
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Water Seven had more or less as much of a resolution as Impel Down. It resolved internal plots but left the resolution of overarching ones for later. In both cases the main plot running through both is simply transferred to the next area. It's about saving Robin - it's about saving Ace. Impel Down's internal plot was simply to get through all its traps and obstacles to save Ace. Water 7's internal plot was to find out what Robin was up to and get her back. In both cases Luffy failed and had to move on to a new location with some new allies on his side. The only difference is that Impel Down had different people under the WG trying to stop Luffy. Otherwise the main character, his objective and (nearly) his allies all carried over and it's still the WG as the main villain. There was no "internal main plot", for the lack of a better term, of Impel Down such as the giants' fight in Little Garden, or Caesar's experiments on Punk Hazard. It was the same exact plot as Marineford - save Ace from WG - in a different location. The antagonist is the same entity, merely wearing a different face. So the only real difference between ID and W7 is that between ID and MF all the individuals among the antagonists were replaced by others (while still coming from the same overall entity) while from W7 to EL some new individuals among the antagonists were added (while still coming from the same overall entity). That can not possibly be the deciding factor as to whether one is a real arc and the other is somehow not. I understand the notion that Magellan was the antagonist and he was defeated in that he failed to stop the prison break, but he's merely one limb of the body of the main antagonist of the save Ace plot, the World Government.
And Water 7 did resolve its own internal plot points, much like ID. It resolved the friction between the Straw Hats, Iceberg/Galley-La and the whole city. Solved the attempted murder mystery. It answered what Robin was up to and got rid of the SHs' doubts. It set them free from the chains that had bound them so they could next move on and save their friend. These were all internal parts of W7 much like Mr. 2's resolve and actions and escaping Magellan were internal parts of Impel Down. But neither arc resolved any overarching plot points. They wouldn't, because they're both set-up arcs for the climax and post-fighting calm that will eventually resolve them.
It's helpful to look toward Amazon Lily to clarify the distinction. AL did have its own internal main plot, which was cleanly resolved and progressed us a step further in the saga's plot. Both arcs and sagas have main plots, but sometimes the main plot of the saga is put aside for an arc to have its own main plot. Little Garden is an example, Drum is another. So too with AL and PH but not with Impel Down, Water 7 and Whiskey Peak (last one being the most arguable). For me that makes the latter three set-up arcs. Their purpose is to set up the coming arc, but they are still arcs of their own. When you make the argument about vital plot points not being resolved, this is basically the core of that. An internal main plot will always be resolved. That in a sense is what a story arc is. But some "arcs" don't have internal main plots; the main plot of the overarching saga is inserted as their main plot directly. ID and W7 are both such arcs. The same exact plot ran through them, merely changing locations because Luffy failed to get the job done in the first location. Either that should mean that neither is an arc of their own, or both ought to be considered set-up arcs.
Great post. Now we can all agree that Water Seven and Enies lobby are different arcs.
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Are we seriously arguing over what the definition of an 'arc' is? Jesus we need a new chapter.
About that, what if, instead of starting the Doflafight, we go into the Jesus vs. Sabo scenario? Would that be awesome or a huge cock block?
Also something that should by all acounts be on the stupid predictions thread came to me; It would be kinda cool if Burgess had some of the forgotten gladiators following him, to try and impress him or something so they can be a part of the BB entourage. I don't know, Mummy, Damask or Kaido, I mean, Meadows.
Then, while Sabo does his usual routine of being ubber, Koala could at least spar with some named dudes instead of your run of the mill goons, and maybe, I don't know, get to see her fishman karate skills?
Let's get this arc into the 100th chapter and beyond!
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Great post. Now we can all agree that Water Seven and Enies lobby are different arcs.
But in the end, Dressrosa still ends up being a shorter story than Water 7/Enies Lobby anyway, regardless of whether you think they're the same arc or not.
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I am kind of pissed at Law. He kind of has been stealing all the glory away from Luffy, and just sabotoged what could have been a great fight. Doflamingo is just going to be another Hody fight.
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I am kind of pissed at Law. He kind of has been stealing all the glory away from Luffy, and just sabotoged what could have been a great fight. Doflamingo is just going to be another Hody fight.
I still foresee a great fight.
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But in the end, Dressrosa still ends up being a shorterstory than Water 7/Enies Lobby anyway, regardless of whether you think they're the same arc or not.
story started at Punk hazard, so nope.
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I am kind of pissed at Law. He kind of has been stealing all the glory away from Luffy, and just sabotoged what could have been a great fight. Doflamingo is just going to be another Hody fight.
Say what you want but Law deserved to strike against Doflamingo at least that much.
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story started at Punk hazard, so nope.
You didn't read Coruscation's post at all then. He pretty much tells the difference between arcs like PH and LG with arcs like W7 and ID.
Really, you're just blindly agreeing with arguments that you think are in your favor instead of praising the argument itself for being good. That's stupid.
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Is this here an arc-measuring contest now? Well, I consider everything from beginning to end as the Luffy's journey arc. See, my arc is the longest. What do I win?
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I am kind of pissed at Law. He kind of has been stealing all the glory away from Luffy, and just sabotoged what could have been a great fight. Doflamingo is just going to be another Hody fight.
More like he turned a one sided ass kicking by Doflamingo into a hard fight Luffy could actually win.
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@Bartholemew:
Is this here an arc-measuring contest now? Well, I consider everything from beginning to end as the Luffy's journey arc. See, my arc is the longest. What do I win?
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@TLC:
More like he turned a one sided ass kicking by Doflamingo into a hard fight Luffy could actually win.
I really doubt that. I wanted Luffy to work for this like he did with Rob Lucci. With Doflamingo on life support and Law not out of the game yet he won't have much of a memorable fight.
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You didn't read Coruscation's post at all then. He pretty much tells the difference between arcs like PH and LG with arcs like W7 and ID.
Really, you're just blindly agreeing with arguments that you think are in your favor. That's stupid.
One could tell that Punk hazard is a setup arc for dressrosa. Law and Luffy being together, Vergo foreshadowing Law past, Doflamingo being introduced as the joker, and the whole point anyway, has always been to destroy Dofla business with the smiles. Story started at Punk hazard.
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I am kind of pissed at Law. He kind of has been stealing all the glory away from Luffy, and just sabotoged what could have been a great fight. Doflamingo is just going to be another Hody fight.
As much as I like Luffy, I don't think he should be getting ALL the action. I personally love it when they give screen time (by that, I mean fights) to other characters, because then Oda's actually doing something with his enormous line-up of characters instead of having them just… THERE. Unless you're a hardcore Luffy fan, you won't JUST be following the story for him.
Me personally, my favourite characters in One Piece are Zoro and Law, so I pay more attention to their fights than Luffy's.
Obviously it's just my opinion, but I'm glad that Luffy's been in less of a spotlight this arc. They've had time to give the light to other (and new) characters, and I don't see that as a bad thing.
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I really doubt that. I wanted Luffy to work for this like he did with Rob Lucci. With Doflamingo on life support and Law not out of the game yet he won't have much of a memorable fight.
How about just wait and see because what snippets we've seen of their battle was well choreographed and exciting and there's no reason to think that the final package will be any less satisfying?
The purpose of the Gamma Knife was to weaken Doflamingo enough to even the game a little (as well as allow Law to give a significant contribution to the fight). I know rule of shonen states that handicapping the villain is a no no but given how Doflamingo has been so and above everyone else (he destroyed Law twice including cutting off his arm!), I think Luffy needs a little bit of a break. The pirate summit is very high indeed and it would personally stretch my suspension of disbelief too much that Luffy could just beat Doflamingo at full strength given the display of power Doflamingo has shown. And it was executed well in a way that also served to develop the characters and stories. Besides Luffy has also been tired out and injured so it's not like Luffy is fighting him fresh. At the end of the day, so long the fight is done well, that's all that matters for me. I'm very confident that Luffy is in for the fight of the lifetime.
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One could tell that Punk hazard is a setup arc for dressrosa. Law and Luffy being together, Vergo foreshadowing Law past, Doflamingo being introduced as the joker, and the whole point anyway, has always been to destroy Dofla business with the smiles. Story started at Punk hazard.
Punk Hazard had its own story though where the focus was stopping Caesar. Most of the Straw Hats themselves didn't even know they were doing stuff to defeat Doula Mongo until Punk Hazard was over.
Caesar, Smoker, the Kids, Aokiji, Brownbeard, Shinokuni… there are several elements that have no relation with Dressrosa whatsoever. This is similar to Little Garden, which is also its own story with a bit of setup.
In the case of W7 and Enies Lobby, Robin and the CP9 are always the main focus of both island events.
Coruscation's post was pretty much about the main focus of the "arcs". W7 and Enies Lobby essentially shared a big, main plot.
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I don't know why everyone is arguing it's pretty much canon that Water 7 and Enies Lobby are different arcs, you can argue semantics and how it was all rising action in Water 7 all you want but officially they're considered different arcs, but they both fall under the 'Water 7 Saga'. Although one thing I'm sure everyone could agree on: Dressrosa is the longest we've spent on one island yet.
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It all boils down to semantics. Enies Lobby was the next ACT of Water 7, but as it still had the same villains and goals and nothing at all was resolved in terms of character or action, and after the fight was done, they returned back to the previous location, it was not a separate story or ARC.
Impel Down had its own unique set of villains and objective, which after the action was done, were not seen again or at all relevant to the next bit of story, so the Impel Down story was fully finished, even if the main story of the series at that point was not..
Now can we please stop arguing over the difference of one letter in a three letter word?
ACT. ARC. SAGA.
Semantics.
