What a good parent may (not) look like.
Naruto and Bleach V - The Not-So-Final Frontier
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[qimg]http://media.animevice.com/uploads/1/18405/711710-ragyo_large.png[/qimg]
What a good parent may (not) look like.I have no idea who this..
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Why settle for just good when you can have the best parent of all? Gendo is the ideal model that every anime parent should strive to be like.
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Just having a guy who can go "I can basically nuke an entire village" but is entirely personality-less otherwise a good villain does not make.
I wouldn't call him personality-less. He had a God complex. And I don't ask a lot of my villains so that might be another thing we differ on. All I need is a strong guy that does something to make me dislike him. Pain became an effective villain for me the second he killed Jiraiya. He provided a lot of threat and also did a villainy thing. Someone like Hodi, on the other hand, even though he did a lot of villainous stuff I never found him effective because he never seemed seriously threatening.
So now we're into shaming our villains into murder by providing a lack of an answer, huh.
Like see, there's the whole deal. Pain was asking "how" Naruto would go about it, and it's cool and all that Naruto's like "I'm gonna find an answer, believe it!", we're talking about a villain who's been built on a (lousy) excuse that "I've tried and tried but I haven't found my answer" and Naruto just goes in and says "No, you should keep looking anyway" without anything to really back him up is an incredibly piss poor way of handling a conflict of ideology. Going to your Joker/Batman example, the end of the movie implies that Joker and Bats are gonna be at it forever because they won't bend. What makes Pain bendable? Just because Naruto says "I can! Believe it!"?
Sticking with the Batman references, I would say Pain is more of a Two-Face character than a Joker. A good guy who was turned bad as opposed to a natural bad guy. So it makes more sense for Pain to be bendable, because he believed in what Naruto believed in the past. He just changed bad because he went through a bad situation and lost his way.
Missing the point. Even if Gaara was "reformed", we never really got to see that side of him that says "wow, Gaara was a pretty cool guy."
Same phrasing as Naruto when Obito kicked the bucket, but really I think that's what Kishimoto was trying with Obito but failed majorly with. "Obito was a cool guy because I got to really know him as someone like me… only a few chapters ago!"
Thats fine. I would personally say that everything he did before and during that Deidara fight showed that he had become a cool guy. Also its totally what Kishi tried to do with Obito. But that was awful. No argument there.
Again, Sakura's "improvement" lasted for a fleeting second only to become useless for pretty much the entire rest of the series. As for the arc on its own, Sakura's improvement is, well, it's good I guess. Nothing really to write home about but it definitely sets up for massive disappointment only one arc later.
Kakuzu's fight otherwise though wasn't anything remarkable. but I mean relatively speaking, so did Itachi. I mean that's to be expected from S-class bad guys. That they're these badass thugs who can just roll around and take on other elites. Aaaand then he gets beat by Naruto, but even before then, that's something we should expect from these guys. And you're telling me that Naruto and Sasuke are both superor to the highest of the high elite super ultra mega jounin villages have to offer even before Sasuke gets a Mangekyou and Naruto just barely scratched the surface of basic ninjutsu with elemental magicks?
As for death, I meant specifically about Sasori considering he "purposefully didn't jump out of the way of the killing blow."
That's all I'm saying. You can't say her role in that arc was horrible just because her role in all the other arcs is horrible. It did lead to disappointment, but it would have been just as disappointing if she had come back from the timeskip useless. Also, Sasuke at that point was definitely stronger than most of the upperclass high level ninja. Naruto wasn't, but what did he really do? He kicked Deidara once, and then batted clean-up for Kakashi with Kakuzu. So its not like he was ever really shown on that level.
Then set up their growth curves properly for a real momentous showdown. They don't need to be all defeated right then and there. Maybe have Naruto fight some subordinates or something THEN have the confrontation later on so the power creep at least levels off there, not just wipe out most of them within the first four or so arcs.
Haha ok I don't know what to call the Akatsuki. They weren't the main villain but they were like the primary villains. So it made sense that they would be fighting right off the bat. Also there is power variance between them, so just because one got beat doesn't mean the rest lose their threat. Also, after the Pain fight, we were shown that Akatsuki weren't actually the main villains. So while that development was bad, it made sense that most of the members were used up early.
Right, we've known him forever, but how often have we actually seen him on screen and really grown beside us? Jiraiya's been a pretty prominent figure since his appearance and doesn't just make quick cameos like Iruka. He hung out and gave Naruto toad summons during the Chunin exam, went off with Naruto to get Tsunade back, saved Naruto and friends' lives when Akatsuki came to capture him, trained Naruto for two years (not relevant to us but I just wanted to point it out), and he's always popping in and doing his general thang up until his death. Even if it wasn't as much time as, let's say Kakashi, we really got to have Jiraiya hang out with the cast and see his quirks and stuff to say his death was significant to us. Jiraiya spent pretty much as much time with Naruto as he did us, so from the reader's perspective, we actually got to see the same stuff and personality as everyone else. Completely different from Iruka who popped up in the first chapter and… basically disappeared save for a few appearances. Asuma's more than that but waaayyyy less than significant because all we've ever seen really is "he's the guy who's in charge of inoshikacho, he smokes, and he has laser blades." (all of which were referenced in the latest translated Rock Lee chapters because... that's all we knew about him before his sudden "I'm going to die!" syndrome.
Ok what about Tsunade? She pretty much died in that last arc, but it wasn't that impactful. And shes had as much development and time as Jiraiya. But I had no real reason to feel sad she died other than that she was the Hokage.
This is the same girl who faked being in love with Naruto, essentially drugged her bodyguards into falling asleep, and pretended to defect to Sasuke's side so she could attempt to kill him. There's a line between "teenage crush" and "holy shit this girl needs a therapist" and Sakura's crossed that line waaayyyy over, and her still pining for her abusive crush (hey that sounds a lot like Obito, too) after so much abuse is "sad", but not in the way you meant.
Yeah that girl was more mixed up than a milkshake. But naming actions without context can make anyone look crazy. She faked being in love with Naruto because she had already messed him up by making him promise to go get Sasuke back. She felt it was the least she could do to try and fix that. She had bodyguards. Shes a medical ninja. So she used her medical knowledge to get away because she wanted to go by herself. Naruto used a clone to get away from Yamato. Its what they do haha. And as for the attempted kill, she wanted to kill him herself before someone else did.
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I have no idea who this..
Ragyo from Kill la Kill. Here's just one of her qualifications for (not) being a good parent (
)That and the molestation.
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as bad as some parents can be in anime, I have to say Itachi was a pretty shitty brother
"Go to the dark side, anger, hatred, kill your best friend, the village makes you weak"
"Dude, why'd you go all crazy and stuff, I was totally saying that so you'd get a stronger connection to the village, get more friends and after defeating me get accepted as the hero's village… did I send a conflicting messages or something"
best brother of the year award
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as bad as some parents can be in anime, I have to say Itachi was a pretty shitty brother
"Go to the dark side, anger, hatred, kill your best friend, the village makes you weak"
"Dude, why'd you go all crazy and stuff, I was totally saying that so you'd get a stronger connection to the village, get more friends and after defeating me get accepted as the hero's village… did I send a conflicting messages or something"
best brother of the year award
Thank you, sincerely.
Itachi is the absolute worst and he's even more smug than his brother because he's so "perfect". I hate characters like that but at least he would have made a great villain that I could love to hate if Kishi didn't take the 'good all along' route.
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And Kubo copied the Itachi stuff completely with Gin Ichimaru betraying Aizen..
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And Kubo copied the Itachi stuff completely with Gin Ichimaru betraying Aizen..
He did?
"Double spy" is not such a rare character.
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I wouldn't call him personality-less. He had a God complex. And I don't ask a lot of my villains so that might be another thing we differ on. All I need is a strong guy that does something to make me dislike him. Pain became an effective villain for me the second he killed Jiraiya. He provided a lot of threat and also did a villainy thing. Someone like Hodi, on the other hand, even though he did a lot of villainous stuff I never found him effective because he never seemed seriously threatening.
They're both boring villains. The difference is that Hody is intentionally an empty villain lacking substance, while Pain was meant to be yet another "NARUTO GONE BAD" character. And a god complex is not a personality. He just thinks he's a god but that's it to his personality. Does this complex manifest itself in his personality in any way? Enel had a god complex, and it showed by his massive ego and grandiosity. Light had a god complex, and it showed by his selfish, hypocritical justice and a holier than thou attitude. Pain has a god complex, but he just walks around with a stone face. He has no passion, no life, nothing inside of him that makes him feel a living character and not a walking, talking brick face.
Sticking with the Batman references, I would say Pain is more of a Two-Face character than a Joker. A good guy who was turned bad as opposed to a natural bad guy. So it makes more sense for Pain to be bendable, because he believed in what Naruto believed in the past. He just changed bad because he went through a bad situation and lost his way.
No he wasn't. We never see Pain doing anything remotely heroic. He just trained under Jiraiya, went to go fight the great offscreen revolution, and that's it before he suddenly turns evil. Just because he fought against a tyrant doesn't make him good automatically. We actually see Harvey with his idealism and drive in bringing down the mob and fixing Gotham's corruption, before he himself is corrupted as his ideals and dreams are broken. What about Pain? Uh, his dog died. And his friend committed suicide. But was idealism broken or something? I don't know because we never see it.
That's all I'm saying. You can't say her role in that arc was horrible just because her role in all the other arcs is horrible. It did lead to disappointment, but it would have been just as disappointing if she had come back from the timeskip useless. Also, Sasuke at that point was definitely stronger than most of the upperclass high level ninja. Naruto wasn't, but what did he really do? He kicked Deidara once, and then batted clean-up for Kakashi with Kakuzu. So its not like he was ever really shown on that level.
No it is worse. Have you ever heard of the higher you climb, the harder you fall? That's what happened with Sakura. We were lead to believe for one long arc that she had finally begun pulling her weight. And then she suddenly became useless again. If she was useless all the way through, maybe our expectations wouldn't have gotten higher thus meaning less disappointment. Naruto and Sasuke don't count, considering how ridiculously powerful they are compared to everyone, especially since they pull new powers out of their asses.
Haha ok I don't know what to call the Akatsuki. They weren't the main villain but they were like the primary villains. So it made sense that they would be fighting right off the bat. Also there is power variance between them, so just because one got beat doesn't mean the rest lose their threat. Also, after the Pain fight, we were shown that Akatsuki weren't actually the main villains. So while that development was bad, it made sense that most of the members were used up early.
Akatsuki was hyped up in part 1 as this super strong brigade of missing ninjas. They were so strong even Orochimaru was afraid to cross them. But then part 2 came and they started dying like flies. It's pretty clear that they were originally meant to be the greater threat to the ninja world that would be taken down last as per shonen standards. So the fact that they weren't meant to be the main villains is a load of bullshit. And the fact that they're not the main villains is not an excuse for why they had such poor showings. That's fucking bullshit. They still were in-universe a very dangerous group not to be taken lightly. It's like saying "the Shichibukai aren't the main villains, so it's okay if Luffy beats them down effortlessly, and then we can just forget about them." Hey, remember Crocodile? Or how about Kuma?
Ok what about Tsunade? She pretty much died in that last arc, but it wasn't that impactful. And shes had as much development and time as Jiraiya. But I had no real reason to feel sad she died other than that she was the Hokage.
Tsunade had nowhere near as much screentime and you know it. We see so many different aspects of Jiraiya that it's downright unfair to compare Tsunade to Jiraiya in terms of screentime and prominence.
Yeah that girl was more mixed up than a milkshake. But naming actions without context can make anyone look crazy. She faked being in love with Naruto because she had already messed him up by making him promise to go get Sasuke back. She felt it was the least she could do to try and fix that. She had bodyguards. Shes a medical ninja. So she used her medical knowledge to get away because she wanted to go by herself. Naruto used a clone to get away from Yamato. Its what they do haha. And as for the attempted kill, she wanted to kill him herself before someone else did.
No it was a very stupid way of going about things. Why couldn't she have been upfront and told Naruto that this promise was only hurting him and that he didn't need to hold onto it any longer? She's a medical ninja whose role is to heal others. To that end, she gets rid of those she's trying to heal, thus increasing the chance she will get seriously hurt. She's trying to take care of the Sasuke business herself, but decides to make it much harder to accomplish her goal. And Sasuke was so much more powerful than her there was no other way her stupid plan could have ended except her getting skewered like Karin. If she really wanted to kill him, she would have taken everyone along and just gang up on him when he's weak. All in all, it was a stupid plan by a stupid girl.
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He did?
"Double spy" is not such a rare character.
With Gin it was mostly shock value, because it made no sense whatsoever.
It was done well with Kuma, and Severus Snape.
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I wouldn't call him personality-less. He had a God complex. And I don't ask a lot of my villains so that might be another thing we differ on. All I need is a strong guy that does something to make me dislike him. Pain became an effective villain for me the second he killed Jiraiya. He provided a lot of threat and also did a villainy thing. Someone like Hodi, on the other hand, even though he did a lot of villainous stuff I never found him effective because he never seemed seriously threatening.
His "God complex" is pretty hollow as a character, especially when his plot for world domination changes from mercenaries -> We'll make a super weapon out of the bijuu -> I was being manipulated by Madara all along! really gives the sense that "…you really have no clue what you're doing, do you" and that the whole scenario is pretty forced. Even worse, his motivation for it all is pretty much described right before his death and really doesn't give you any compelling reason during and even after the fight's concluded that "well gee, I see where you're coming from by pretending you're God" other than "well I was pretty much forced into everything, and even when akatsuki was in its infancy, Yahiko was the one who really wanted this." When your villain is completely defined by everyone around him rather than his own intrinsic actions, saying "he has a God complex!" really doesn't stand true.
Sticking with the Batman references, I would say Pain is more of a Two-Face character than a Joker. A good guy who was turned bad as opposed to a natural bad guy. So it makes more sense for Pain to be bendable, because he believed in what Naruto believed in the past. He just changed bad because he went through a bad situation and lost his way.
Implying Batman was able to be convinced that "yes, I will keep fighting against the Joker while keeping to my morals!" He went bad because he cracked, sure, but I find it hard to believe that "I have absolutely nothing to refute your argument right now!" is a strong enough motivator to cause him to regret his decisions.
I'm not saying that Naruto should go against that belief. That's a perfectly acceptable response when you're faced with an incredibly tough dilemma. However, the only option to the dilemma Batman had was "well shit, guess I'm gonna have to throw him off the edge" because there really wasn't much option otherwise in this case.
Thats fine. I would personally say that everything he did before and during that Deidara fight showed that he had become a cool guy.
It's an incredibly short lived event that, while it may build some appreciation for the character in the long run, really is but a drop in the bucket compared to his entire character before. Same with Obito. Yes, Gaara's actions are valiant, but we never really got to know his change of character. Yes, showing is better than telling, so then show us more about Gaara other than "he's a Kazekage and he's doing his duty as a kazekage"
That's all I'm saying. You can't say her role in that arc was horrible just because her role in all the other arcs is horrible. It did lead to disappointment, but it would have been just as disappointing if she had come back from the timeskip useless. Also, Sasuke at that point was definitely stronger than most of the upperclass high level ninja. Naruto wasn't, but what did he really do? He kicked Deidara once, and then batted clean-up for Kakashi with Kakuzu. So its not like he was ever really shown on that level.
It makes absolutely no sense for Sasuke to exceed these super giant threats to the ninja world in just two years. Genius? Sure, but when you fodderize your antagonists as people easily defeated after building them up so much, it gives credence to the belief that "Well, these guys were just a buncha pushovers!" At least with Itachi he let Sauce win, but when all of them get trounced? These are guys whose powers are capable of capturing beast hosts with control over their abilities without too much trouble? Seriously?
Haha ok I don't know what to call the Akatsuki. They weren't the main villain but they were like the primary villains. So it made sense that they would be fighting right off the bat. Also there is power variance between them, so just because one got beat doesn't mean the rest lose their threat. Also, after the Pain fight, we were shown that Akatsuki weren't actually the main villains. So while that development was bad, it made sense that most of the members were used up early.
Regardless of where they stand as villains, they're all still S-class missing nin of the highest order with huge threat levels to them. This was the huge, HUGE, big deal about them even if they're not the "main villains", and retconning their abilities as "well, at least these youngsters with not that much experience can take them down when even one could basically take on three jounin at Konoha!" is pretty horrendous.
It'd be like if Luffy were to defeat Aokiji right after meeting him, and the admirals aren't even really the "main antagonists" of One Piece. They sure are hella hyped up in terms of abilities though and they've more or less stuck with it. Even when defeating Croc, it wasn't without incredible cost to it in terms of nearly dying and learning the trick to beating him through great pains. And since Croc, you've had Moriah (whose fight win was purely based on a powerup that was honestly the weakest part of the Thriller Bark arc), and then he basically gets completely trounced by everyone else. The pacifistas, Momotaro, Kizaru, Akainu, hell even Magellan, and pretty much every one of the big leagues proved themselves as the major players in the game and that Luffy's just been talk compared to these monsters. And while they didn't fight, it's pretty clear that Whitebeard and Shanks, both yonkou, were on a completely different playing field.
It's different now because Luffy's really ingrained his experiences to heart and really made use of his two years what with his haki and all, but in Naruto the disparity between power level from the outset for any of the genin turned chunin is really crazy compared to Akatsuki. Naruto and Sakura at the beginning are well below Sasuke's aptitude, and Sasuke has the capacity to take on these crazy guys? I mean I get a crippled Orochimaru, but Sasuke outclassing some incredibly fearsome ninja? I mean assuming akatsuki's guys aren't your run of the mill ninja, then they're capable of some crazy feats as well and probably aren't slouches to boot.
Ok what about Tsunade? She pretty much died in that last arc, but it wasn't that impactful. And shes had as much development and time as Jiraiya. But I had no real reason to feel sad she died other than that she was the Hokage.
Two things:
First, the almost-death was handled as an "offscreen" sorta deal, so you didn't even really know if Madara completely crushed her. There was no point where the reader would really think "Holy shit, Tsunade's dead." Even at that point, I was pretty skeptical and figured someone would bring back the five kages, and I'm sure everyone felt that way.
Second, Tsunade's character was great when she was introduced and during her arc, but since then, she's been afflicted by "secondary character syndrome" where Kishimoto just keeps her on the bench. Her role is someone whose entire role in the story otherwise has been "I'm going to assign you guys jobs and give some exposition as to why Naruto shouldn't use the rasenshuriken"Like really the only apt conclusion is something like Netero from Hunter x Hunter, because he's are never really present in the story but his death was incredibly memorable for two things. First, even if he doesn't appear, the brief glimpses we get of his character already define our perception of him as a person. Second, his looming presence is already acute enough to really say "hey! This guy is really the ideal that hunters look up to and is one of the utmost experts in nen!" What has Tsunade done? At most, it was in the pain arc where she sacrificed her chakra to save the village, but her "presence" is best felt as "Lady who's part of the bureaucratic process and assigns people jobs."
In contrast, Jiraiya's kinda the Obi-wan Kenobi of the series. He's the mentor and really gets involved with the protag, but he sacrifices his life for the greater good, and we kinda get a good sense of the character even if they aren't completely there or appear in brief moments.
Yeah that girl was more mixed up than a milkshake. But naming actions without context can make anyone look crazy. She faked being in love with Naruto because she had already messed him up by making him promise to go get Sasuke back. She felt it was the least she could do to try and fix that. She had bodyguards. Shes a medical ninja. So she used her medical knowledge to get away because she wanted to go by herself. Naruto used a clone to get away from Yamato. Its what they do haha. And as for the attempted kill, she wanted to kill him herself before someone else did.
Fine. Here's the context:
"Here is a girl who has devoted her entire life to someone who has never even really talked to her as a person, and worst off, that's her entire character."
Why would anyone be compelled to empathize with such a flat person. The only thing she had otherwise as a character is "She was friends with Ino," but she is otherwise completely defined by her infatuation with Sasuke. And even with context, she's still completely reprehensible about her actions. It's pretty much Glee level female character defining here.
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@Purple:
His "God complex" is pretty hollow as a character, especially when his plot for world domination changes from mercenaries -> We'll make a super weapon out of the bijuu -> I was being manipulated by Madara all along! really gives the sense that "…you really have no clue what you're doing, do you" and that the whole scenario is pretty forced. Even worse, his motivation for it all is pretty much described right before his death and really doesn't give you any compelling reason during and even after the fight's concluded that "well gee, I see where you're coming from by pretending you're God" other than "well I was pretty much forced into everything, and even when akatsuki was in its infancy, Yahiko was the one who really wanted this." When your villain is completely defined by everyone around him rather than his own intrinsic actions, saying "he has a God complex!" really doesn't stand true.
Was he a puppet? Sure. But his motivation has always been peace. He had that instilled in him as a child and thats never changed. He just went from following Yahiko to following Madara. And his god complex came from Yahiko dying. Madara didn't give that to him. He was just a guy who went through so much crap that he figured he went through enlightenment. It was a coping mechanism. Hes more defined by what happened to him then by those around him.
Implying Batman was able to be convinced that "yes, I will keep fighting against the Joker while keeping to my morals!" He went bad because he cracked, sure, but I find it hard to believe that "I have absolutely nothing to refute your argument right now!" is a strong enough motivator to cause him to regret his decisions.
I'm not saying that Naruto should go against that belief. That's a perfectly acceptable response when you're faced with an incredibly tough dilemma. However, the only option to the dilemma Batman had was "well shit, guess I'm gonna have to throw him off the edge" because there really wasn't much option otherwise in this case.
The point imo isn't that Naruto has such a compelling argument. Its the act of continuing the fight. Its not like Nagato gave up on the concept of peace, he just said it was way too hard to do it through understanding so he would it through force. Like if I'm running a marathon and I crap out halfway through, I'll feel like crap if someone else comes through, feels just as bad as I did at the halfway point, but keeps pushing through. I might even be inspired enough to try again. No guarantee that they'll finish but its still inspiring.
It's an incredibly short lived event that, while it may build some appreciation for the character in the long run, really is but a drop in the bucket compared to his entire character before. Same with Obito. Yes, Gaara's actions are valiant, but we never really got to know his change of character. Yes, showing is better than telling, so then show us more about Gaara other than "he's a Kazekage and he's doing his duty as a kazekage"
I don't think a drop in the bucket is correct. He was a bad guy in chuunin and invasion arc and he was a good guy in retrieval and sand arc. But I'll agree to disagree.
It makes absolutely no sense for Sasuke to exceed these super giant threats to the ninja world in just two years. Genius? Sure, but when you fodderize your antagonists as people easily defeated after building them up so much, it gives credence to the belief that "Well, these guys were just a buncha pushovers!" At least with Itachi he let Sauce win, but when all of them get trounced? These are guys whose powers are capable of capturing beast hosts with control over their abilities without too much trouble? Seriously?
Regardless of where they stand as villains, they're all still S-class missing nin of the highest order with huge threat levels to them. This was the huge, HUGE, big deal about them even if they're not the "main villains", and retconning their abilities as "well, at least these youngsters with not that much experience can take them down when even one could basically take on three jounin at Konoha!" is pretty horrendous.Ok I really don't won't to go into how all of them died except to say that none of them were defeated easily and most of them had to be double teamed. Sasuke's goal was to beat an akatsuki so we know that the level of strength he was shooting for. We know he went to go train with an evil genius that had access to forbidden jutsus to augment his abilities and medical jutsu so he could train nonstop. It makes perfect sense that he got that strong that quickly. Who exactly was a pushover other than maybe Kakuzu and Konan? The whole point was that most beast hosts fought alone while akatsuki always went out in pairs. Once again no akatsuki member was fodderized or trounced. The only one who vaguely counts is Hidan, and he needs a partner to be truly effective. When you have Pain and Deidara in the same group, it should clear that the power levels vary. So just because once could take on three jounin doesn't mean they all should. Itachi, Kisame, and Pain were they strongest people in that group and they justified that.
It'd be like if Luffy were to defeat Aokiji right after meeting him, and the admirals aren't even really the "main antagonists" of One Piece. They sure are hella hyped up in terms of abilities though and they've more or less stuck with it. Even when defeating Croc, it wasn't without incredible cost to it in terms of nearly dying and learning the trick to beating him through great pains. And since Croc, you've had Moriah (whose fight win was purely based on a powerup that was honestly the weakest part of the Thriller Bark arc), and then he basically gets completely trounced by everyone else. The pacifistas, Momotaro, Kizaru, Akainu, hell even Magellan, and pretty much every one of the big leagues proved themselves as the major players in the game and that Luffy's just been talk compared to these monsters. And while they didn't fight, it's pretty clear that Whitebeard and Shanks, both yonkou, were on a completely different playing field.
This comparison isn't fair. I think shichibuchai and akatsuki are actually a great comparison. The difference is that the shichibuckai were mainly fought before the timeskip and the akatsuki were fought after it. Naruto and Sasuke are helpless pre skip and competent post skip. Luffy also likely would have no problem with the Croc he fought before, Moriah, pacifistas, Momotaro, and a lot of those of major players. The skip was to let them both jump into the big leagues.
It's different now because Luffy's really ingrained his experiences to heart and really made use of his two years what with his haki and all, but in Naruto the disparity between power level from the outset for any of the genin turned chunin is really crazy compared to Akatsuki. Naruto and Sakura at the beginning are well below Sasuke's aptitude, and Sasuke has the capacity to take on these crazy guys? I mean I get a crippled Orochimaru, but Sasuke outclassing some incredibly fearsome ninja? I mean assuming akatsuki's guys aren't your run of the mill ninja, then they're capable of some crazy feats as well and probably aren't slouches to boot.
Naruto wasn't able to take on the akatsuki by himself and neither was Sakura. Both of them had jounin level ninja's doing the heavy lifting for them. I addressed Sasuke earlier. Naruto didn't get the ability to fight akatsuki adequately until Jiraiya died and he used that as motivation to get to that next level. Also Deidara was crippled and Itachi let Sasuke win. So who was he outclassing? He was certainly around that level but he wasn't significantly better. He couldn't even beat Killer Bee with his weird cast of minions.
Two things:
First, the almost-death was handled as an "offscreen" sorta deal, so you didn't even really know if Madara completely crushed her. There was no point where the reader would really think "Holy shit, Tsunade's dead." Even at that point, I was pretty skeptical and figured someone would bring back the five kages, and I'm sure everyone felt that way.
Second, Tsunade's character was great when she was introduced and during her arc, but since then, she's been afflicted by "secondary character syndrome" where Kishimoto just keeps her on the bench. Her role is someone whose entire role in the story otherwise has been "I'm going to assign you guys jobs and give some exposition as to why Naruto shouldn't use the rasenshuriken"Like really the only apt conclusion is something like Netero from Hunter x Hunter, because he's are never really present in the story but his death was incredibly memorable for two things. First, even if he doesn't appear, the brief glimpses we get of his character already define our perception of him as a person. Second, his looming presence is already acute enough to really say "hey! This guy is really the ideal that hunters look up to and is one of the utmost experts in nen!" What has Tsunade done? At most, it was in the pain arc where she sacrificed her chakra to save the village, but her "presence" is best felt as "Lady who's part of the bureaucratic process and assigns people jobs."
In contrast, Jiraiya's kinda the Obi-wan Kenobi of the series. He's the mentor and really gets involved with the protag, but he sacrifices his life for the greater good, and we kinda get a good sense of the character even if they aren't completely there or appear in brief moments.She was split in half by a tree. Yeah everyone knew someone was going to bring them back, but we still weren't even affected by seeing her badly injured. That secondary character thing isn't fair. Shes the hokage so she isn't going to go do things unless its urgent. The Pain arc was also another chance to get to know her better, in regards to her relations with Jiraiya. She was constantly shown going to bat for Naruto in the political meetings. You can't say she hasn't had a huge role in part 2. Way more than the actually secondary cast.
Fine. Here's the context:
"Here is a girl who has devoted her entire life to someone who has never even really talked to her as a person, and worst off, that's her entire character."
Why would anyone be compelled to empathize with such a flat person. The only thing she had otherwise as a character is "She was friends with Ino," but she is otherwise completely defined by her infatuation with Sasuke. And even with context, she's still completely reprehensible about her actions. It's pretty much Glee level female character defining here.
Sasuke's interaction with her in part 1 showed he both acknowledged her feelings and appreciated them. You can say that he kept ignoring them while they were in the team and then randomly decided to throw her a bone. I think it showed they developed a serious rapport. She's defined by the fact that she is the unremarkable of the trio, though it sadly never gets righted. So she has 2 character traits haha. And if that stuff was reprehensible then so be it. I never found it that big a deal.
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They're both boring villains. The difference is that Hody is intentionally an empty villain lacking substance, while Pain was meant to be yet another "NARUTO GONE BAD" character. And a god complex is not a personality. He just thinks he's a god but that's it to his personality. Does this complex manifest itself in his personality in any way? Enel had a god complex, and it showed by his massive ego and grandiosity. Light had a god complex, and it showed by his selfish, hypocritical justice and a holier than thou attitude. Pain has a god complex, but he just walks around with a stone face. He has no passion, no life, nothing inside of him that makes him feel a living character and not a walking, talking brick face.
Didn't know people intentionally made empty villains. Not being sarcastic by the way haha. Pain had the grandiosity in manner and ego as Enel. He talked to his former master like he was a child. As Pain was literally a bunch of corpses so they had to have brick faces haha
No he wasn't. We never see Pain doing anything remotely heroic. He just trained under Jiraiya, went to go fight the great offscreen revolution, and that's it before he suddenly turns evil. Just because he fought against a tyrant doesn't make him good automatically. We actually see Harvey with his idealism and drive in bringing down the mob and fixing Gotham's corruption, before he himself is corrupted as his ideals and dreams are broken. What about Pain? Uh, his dog died. And his friend committed suicide. But was idealism broken or something? I don't know because we never see it.
The entire ideal of akatsuki originally was ending war everywhere. Maybe not heroic but its definitely something a good guy would join. I guess you could argue he was ambivalent except that we see that from an early age he is a pacifist and cares deeply about peace. His dog dying was sad but it didn't change his demeanor. Idk why people always bring that up. His idealism for peace through nonviolence, which was Yahiko's motivation, was destroyed when they got betrayed and his best friend died. That has to rank up there with fiance dying in an explosion.
No it is worse. Have you ever heard of the higher you climb, the harder you fall? That's what happened with Sakura. We were lead to believe for one long arc that she had finally begun pulling her weight. And then she suddenly became useless again. If she was useless all the way through, maybe our expectations wouldn't have gotten higher thus meaning less disappointment. Naruto and Sasuke don't count, considering how ridiculously powerful they are compared to everyone, especially since they pull new powers out of their asses.
Have you ever heard its better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all? I'll just appreciate how cool she was that one arc. Also Naruto and Sasuke weren't ridiculously powerful until the war started. Sasuke got beat up by Killer Bee and each of the Kages.
Akatsuki was hyped up in part 1 as this super strong brigade of missing ninjas. They were so strong even Orochimaru was afraid to cross them. But then part 2 came and they started dying like flies. It's pretty clear that they were originally meant to be the greater threat to the ninja world that would be taken down last as per shonen standards. So the fact that they weren't meant to be the main villains is a load of bullshit. And the fact that they're not the main villains is not an excuse for why they had such poor showings. That's fucking bullshit. They still were in-universe a very dangerous group not to be taken lightly. It's like saying "the Shichibukai aren't the main villains, so it's okay if Luffy beats them down effortlessly, and then we can just forget about them." Hey, remember Crocodile? Or how about Kuma?
Ok part 1 and part 2 had totally different power scales. Part 1 Kakashi almost pooped himself when he saw Orochimaru, yet in Part 2 he had no qualms in engaging two separate akatsuki members so thats not really relevant. The only thing that was clear in part 1 was that the collection of beast hosts would be the major driving force of part 2. We didn't even know why they wanted them so you don't know that they were meant to be the final villains. And who had a poor showing outside of Konan? They were still super strong and all had close fights.
Tsunade had nowhere near as much screentime and you know it. We see so many different aspects of Jiraiya that it's downright unfair to compare Tsunade to Jiraiya in terms of screentime and prominence.
Um she was the hokage and pretty much everytime we saw Jiraiya we saw her. And after Jiraiya died we saw even more of her. She had plenty of screentime. All three of the sannin had relatively equal prominence in the series.
No it was a very stupid way of going about things. Why couldn't she have been upfront and told Naruto that this promise was only hurting him and that he didn't need to hold onto it any longer? She's a medical ninja whose role is to heal others. To that end, she gets rid of those she's trying to heal, thus increasing the chance she will get seriously hurt. She's trying to take care of the Sasuke business herself, but decides to make it much harder to accomplish her goal. And Sasuke was so much more powerful than her there was no other way her stupid plan could have ended except her getting skewered like Karin. If she really wanted to kill him, she would have taken everyone along and just gang up on him when he's weak. All in all, it was a stupid plan by a stupid girl.
No argument it was stupid. Characters aren't allowed to make stupid decisions?
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It's never a good idea to do Kaguya or Necron or a shitty AI Catalyst or whatever incarnation this terrible device takes form in.
It all depends on the execution. I think theoretically even a final antagonist with neither any build-up nor any form of communication could work perfectly with the story if only the execution is good. This antagonist, however, has to fit perfectly to the leitmotif of the story.
For example, if the motivation of the protagonist is freedom as well as being able to life his or her own, I can see it perfectly work if some deity/force of nature suddenly appears at the very end. It doesn't challenge the protagonist only in a physical way, but also mentially - because it challenges absolutely everything the protagonist stands for and fought for all over the course of the story. Just the execution has to be good.
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as bad as some parents can be in anime, I have to say Itachi was a pretty shitty brother
"Go to the dark side, anger, hatred, kill your best friend, the village makes you weak"
"Dude, why'd you go all crazy and stuff, I was totally saying that so you'd get a stronger connection to the village, get more friends and after defeating me get accepted as the hero's village… did I send a conflicting messages or something"
best brother of the year award
That's why Itachi's face heel turn reveal feels sooooo awkward and forced. Are you sure you were good all along? Really? It's like Gaara's background being retconed as "no, really, it was all out of LOOOOVE!". Makes no sense whatsoever and feels out of left field, just like Itachi's scenario. I'm not saying it wasn't planned by Kishi (this is something I don't know), but he wrote the whole thing WRONG.
@Purple:
Shika had one slight arc, but we already knew "hey he's good at making plans."
We have no idea. Zero. as to how good Asuma was at that. At most, he had the upper advantage of knowing what Hidan's capable of when forming a strategy. And Chouji? We only got a snippet of it in the war but that was a point that "he finally grew up" rather than "he surpassed the old generation!"
Sasuke? Born with it.
Naruto? Born with it.
Sakura? Arguably we haven't seen anything that really implies she's surpassed Tsunade.One of the biggest crimes Kishi has ever done (and a direct consequence of neglecting secondary characters SO much) is creating scenarios that basically scream "finish my fucking character arc!", and then. . .throwing that to the thrash can. Specially Rock Lee's character arc being so incredibly dull and disappointing, while simultaneously being someone that basically EMBODIES Naruto part I. Rock Lee IS the first part of Naruto down to a T. And yet he's never given that moment where he surpasses all expectations and everyone lauds him as a super ninja.
I know you all at least "liked" Gai's 8th gate release moment. Honestly? I think that should've been Lee's moment. You just can't have a scene at the final arc of the manga where someone as loved and in need of a "full circle" moment as Lee admits "shit, I can only open up to the 6th gate, I can't help my still vastly superior sensei, who can open the 8th gate and be a total badass!". There's a gazillion scenarios where Lee could've one-uped Gai. And, since NaruJesus can save you from death, as we saw when he voided Gai's "sacrifice", it's no excuse that Lee would've died had he used the 8 gates.
But there's just so many examples that scream "do something with me, goddamit! Show my progress!". Lee is just the biggest example cause his build up and set up during Part I is beyond excellent (and so more disappointing became his part II performance. . .), but the rest? What about Ino? His dad is like the head of the. . ."mind extracting info" corps of the entire village. Has Ino even come close to that level of usefulness? What's telling us Choji is superior to his dad? Did Shino EVER did something that clearly puts him a step above his dad and uncles? Or Kiba done something that makes his big sister and his mother proud at the "best Kiba ninja ever"? And Hinata? Did she surpass her superior little sister that had their father's benefit, who was so disappointed at Hinata herself? Why did we see a fucking conclussion to Hinata's character arc in a NON CANON GAG MANGA but NOT in the main one?????? Same with Ten-Ten, of whom we've seen plenty of motivations and inner workings on the same gag series while the main one just forgets about one of the Konoha 11.
The only ones who are clearly above the rest of the ninja universe are Naruto and Sasuke, but in their case it just ends up being retarded in MANY ways. 1-It's not effort that gave them beyond God like powers BUT being reincarnations. 2-Their strength ends up being so high as a consequence that they basically make the rest of the characters utterly useless. Hell, Hermit Mode Naruto is like, what, 1/10th of current Super God Naruto's strength? 1/20th? And yet, that Naruto was enough to render ALL of Konoha useless, while he alone took on the foe that singlehandedly made all those ninjas look like ass. It's ridiculous in way too many levels.
Say what you will about Oda's current handling of the crew, but I have no doubt whatsoever that, by the end of the game, Robin will be the greatest archeologist that has ever existed, Nami will be the greatest navigator in the whole world, Zoro will be the strongest swordsman, Usopp will be the king of snipers, Sanji will be the best cook, etc. . .There's just no way the thought of Oda leaving all their aspirations aside can even cross my mind, and yet this is what Kishi did with his own manga.
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Was he a puppet? Sure. But his motivation has always been peace. He had that instilled in him as a child and thats never changed. He just went from following Yahiko to following Madara. And his god complex came from Yahiko dying. Madara didn't give that to him. He was just a guy who went through so much crap that he figured he went through enlightenment. It was a coping mechanism. Hes more defined by what happened to him then by those around him.
I mean, yeah sure everyone wants peace. What makes him different? A "God Complex" when it's clearly shown that he's never been the one in control of his own life? When a character is clearly shown throughout the entire arc that he isn't capable of making his own decisions, from what is the audience supposed to judge his reactions? It's the exact opposite of Hody's problem, where Hody's in control of his own life but his actions are incredibly hollow. But in Pain's case, why should we even consider his point of view when it's pretty clear that his philosophy slowly moves to having no concept of his own place in the world. Likewise, I don't particularly mind subordinate characters. I mean really you'll always have some boss above you to deal with. The main problem here is where everything about the character is dictated by other forces.
The point imo isn't that Naruto has such a compelling argument. Its the act of continuing the fight. Its not like Nagato gave up on the concept of peace, he just said it was way too hard to do it through understanding so he would it through force. Like if I'm running a marathon and I crap out halfway through, I'll feel like crap if someone else comes through, feels just as bad as I did at the halfway point, but keeps pushing through. I might even be inspired enough to try again. No guarantee that they'll finish but its still inspiring.
In the marathon example, there's a very clear endpoint in sight that, while it may be a pain in the ass to finish, you can still see it.
Now if you're a train that's on a track that's going around in circles, very different path and very different motivations.
I don't think a drop in the bucket is correct. He was a bad guy in chuunin and invasion arc and he was a good guy in retrieval and sand arc. But I'll agree to disagree.
It's basically as if Crocodile suddenly was thrust into the role of an island leader where all we saw of him was "he was the boss" and he suddenly had to protect it from mass destruction. Noble? Sure, but pretty much everything we've seen of the Croc has really amounted to that much, even after allying with the other pirates at Marineford.
Ok I really don't won't to go into how all of them died except to say that none of them were defeated easily and most of them had to be double teamed.
Who exactly was a pushover other than maybe Kakuzu and Konan?
- Sasori - Couldn't even take out a chunin and an old lady past her prime. So zero cost to the allies which is acceptable if we really saw Sakura grow into someone that was capable of fighting someone of this caliber, which really isn't possible when it's the first freakin arc.
- Hidan - completely gimped by Shikamaru
- Kakuzu - WELL MY FIRST APPROACH DIDN'T WORK, BUT I GUESS I'LL JUST TRY AGAIN THE EXACT SAME WAY.
- Deidara - fought with one arm, sure, but the fight against Sasuke was basically completely one sided.
- Itachi - basically let Sasuke have the win/was dying, but it's pretty clear that Sasuke more or less reached Itachi's level even without the mangekyou, and the one thing that really gave Itachi the upper hand was Susano-o
- Pain - basically as long as Naruto had access to sage chakra, the match was pretty one sided.
- Konan - LOL WATER.
- Kisame - Got absolutely destroyed by a guy probably at Kage level strength if all eight gates surpasses kage level strength, so yeah, a legitimately earned kill.
Soooo 9/10. And while the fights may not have been easy, the defeats were basically free handouts every arc. There's no sense of build up and really that "well hey these guys are the insanely powerful dudes that have mysterious plans with these super monsters but obviously are up to no good!" Make them more down the line, that's fine. If it's a harsh battle after leveling up characters more, cool. It's the same reason why the Straw Hats dominating everything in the New World so far without much trouble is kinda shaky plot writing, but Kishimoto's basically been doing it the entire Part 2.
Sasuke's goal was to beat an akatsuki so we know that the level of strength he was shooting for. We know he went to go train with an evil genius that had access to forbidden jutsus to augment his abilities and medical jutsu so he could train nonstop. It makes perfect sense that he got that strong that quickly.
The only real forbidden tech he had was the curse seal. Everything else was just summons, fireballs, and lightning. So basically, pretty much his repertoire in Part 1 amped up to an appreciable degree, which is, again, perfectly fine to have some boost after a time skip, but pretty incredulous to believe that it's enough to push him beyond these guys built up to be super criminals.
The whole point was that most beast hosts fought alone while akatsuki always went out in pairs.
I don't think even two jounin want to take on even a crazed Gaara in the flashback, the nine tailed fox going on a rampage in Konoha, or even in the cloud village when the previous eight tails host went all crazy and killed some people retaining him, let alone who knows what they're doing and can control the beast. And these guys are supposed to be able to do it anyway and fight these monsters? IN PAIRS?
Once again no akatsuki member was fodderized or trounced. The only one who vaguely counts is Hidan, and he needs a partner to be truly effective. When you have Pain and Deidara in the same group, it should clear that the power levels vary. So just because once could take on three jounin doesn't mean they all should. Itachi, Kisame, and Pain were they strongest people in that group and they justified that.
Power levels vary, and you'll get that feeling of a hierarchy in the group, yes, but that doesn't change the fact (that you seem to keep missing) that THEY'RE ALL REPUTED SUPER S-CLASS MISSING NIN.
This comparison isn't fair.
It's completely fair because we're looking at looming powers that stand way above everyone else. That's how Akatsuki was built up as these super legit criminals that play by their own rules.
I think shichibuchai and akatsuki are actually a great comparison. The difference is that the shichibuckai were mainly fought before the timeskip and the akatsuki were fought after it.
We're fighting with a shichibukai right now, and it's pretty clear that pre timeskip Luffy stands zero chance. Since then, however, we see he's really honed his skills. And the big thing was, even if Luffy's not at the big leagues during Marineford, he's still pretty close. Oda established that he and the rest of the guys at Sabaody were rising stars in the world before, so we got a sense that they have the potential to make it big and actually live the dream of becoming pirate king. Meanwhile, right before the timeskip, Naruto and friends were just low class genin. It's incredulous to believe that, even with backup and support that they'd be able to take these super criminals out without some big sacrifices. It's like if the royal chimera ants in Hunter x Hunter were taken out and everybody came out unscathed.
Naruto and Sasuke are helpless pre skip and competent post skip. Luffy also likely would have no problem with the Croc he fought before, Moriah, pacifistas, Momotaro, and a lot of those of major players. The skip was to let them both jump into the big leagues.
And it's pretty clear that Luffy really capitalized on that time. He earned his place in the big leagues. Nothing the cast does in Naruto ever really feels like "these guys can hand Akatsuki their ass!" Again, set them up with maybe Akatsuki subordinates or something. Give them something in the relative playing field. In Toriko, the struggle's really felt with something like anyone against Tommyrod, and although they come out victorious, the struggle's still felt and it's very real, and hell Tommyrod was just some sou chef, not the absolute top tier of the villains. Killing off these major players within a handful of arcs really discredits their legitimacy as actual threats and is a big reason why people laugh at them the further you go into Part 2.
Naruto wasn't able to take on the akatsuki by himself and neither was Sakura. Both of them had jounin level ninja's doing the heavy lifting for them.
Not really. Kakashi delayed Kakuzu sorta but it's not like Naruto couldn't have just done the exact same thing with his rasenshuriken regardless. Kakashi was just there to back up Chouji and Ino, and he kinda gets away with a heart, but when Naruto shows up it's pretty much commentary time for that team. Naruto basically did most of the work that was effective against Kakuzu, and all it really took was "teach naruto elemental transformation!" which is a pretty hilarious considering it's something Jiraiya should have taught Naruto during the timeskip or, hell, maybe they should screen kids for that when they're in Ninja elementary school.
Sakura, sure she basically was a puppet for Chiyo's battle experience, but again, what was the cost paid to defeat Sasori? I understand that Chiyo's a high level sand ninja, but for Sasori to be taken out with no direct cost in terms of the fight? It'd make sense if it were later on in Part 2 after the power creep for protags catch up to top tier villains, but right off the bat in Part 2? Waaayyyy too early and the first thing that tells us "maybe Akatsuki really isn't that serious and Kishimoto basically built up a pile of horseshit for villains."
I addressed Sasuke earlier.
Inadequately, but sure.
Naruto didn't get the ability to fight akatsuki adequately until Jiraiya died and he used that as motivation to get to that next level. Also Deidara was crippled and Itachi let Sasuke win. So who was he outclassing? He was certainly around that level but he wasn't significantly better. He couldn't even beat Killer Bee with his weird cast of minions.
Regardless of the circumstances and what gimps they had, it's still incredibly disappointing that these characters are beating powerhouses purely because of "plot reasons". If we've established that
She was split in half by a tree. Yeah everyone knew someone was going to bring them back, but we still weren't even affected by seeing her badly injured.
You basically just explained why the scene had no significance. When there's no sense of danger and people have escaped death from hairier situations and the death is kinda not made a big deal of, why would anyone be affected by it?
That secondary character thing isn't fair. Shes the hokage so she isn't going to go do things unless its urgent.
Really funny that the strongest ninja in the village is the one doing all the desk work. Regardless of that, there's still plenty of other ways to capitalize on her position and give us some growth, just like in the Rock Lee spinoff which pretty much does everything right with the secondary cast.
The Pain arc was also another chance to get to know her better, in regards to her relations with Jiraiya. She was constantly shown going to bat for Naruto in the political meetings. You can't say she hasn't had a huge role in part 2. Way more than the actually secondary cast.
She hasn't had a huge role in part 2.
And yes, I mean that seriously. She's kinda just some background bureaucrat that, yes, she's more significant than a generic mob character, but we're never given any actual character. I think you're seriously missing the point of actually needing something to pull from to empathize with a character when they kick the bucket (and not just some last minute thing). We get a bit about the dynamics of Jiraiya and her, sure, but nothing that makes us say "wow! What a great character."
Sasuke's interaction with her in part 1 showed he both acknowledged her feelings and appreciated them. You can say that he kept ignoring them while they were in the team and then randomly decided to throw her a bone. I think it showed they developed a serious rapport. She's defined by the fact that she is the unremarkable of the trio, though it sadly never gets righted. So she has 2 character traits haha. And if that stuff was reprehensible then so be it. I never found it that big a deal.
It only ever felt like he developed semi serious rapport with Naruto. Sasuke semi seriously acknowledges people in his life (only to throw it down the gutter once Itachi shows up), but he's never really shown with any actual, substantial interaction that tells us "Sakura has some incentive to really be clingy to this emo kid here." You could throw Sasuke on another unit and the level of interaction and friendship build up between Sakura and Sasuke wouldn't be affected that much. Sakura in the end just had the benefit that her crush was thrown on the same team as her, but nothing is ever really built up on it.
And seriously? Not reprehensible? You're really going to overlook that all of that is psychotic possessive crazy girlfriend level thinking right here and that she's basically psychologically insane during this point? And even when you bar that that the actions themselves aren't good?
Didn't know people intentionally made empty villains. Not being sarcastic by the way haha. Pain had the grandiosity in manner and ego as Enel. He talked to his former master like he was a child. As Pain was literally a bunch of corpses so they had to have brick faces haha
"Hmm, what group of people were corpses that we know end up not having just brick faces? Oh I know, Kabuto's entire contribution to the Ninja war."
Other than that, Enel is actually given dominion and a sense of a huge ego because his ability really is broken for anyone that isn't Luffy, but without taking into account his position or abilities, we really see Enel built up as some dude who's whole thing in life is megalomania to the extreme.
Not the same for someone who's all talk but really was just some marionette.
The entire ideal of akatsuki originally was ending war everywhere. Maybe not heroic but its definitely something a good guy would join.
could would are very different phrases from is, and the point here is that just because he's part of it doesn't really mean he's actually really feeling it. Other than that though, we're only really told about their exploits but never shown what good things they actually did. Are we really going to believe that the group was nonviolent when they were renowned as a ninja cell without any idea of how they actually operated?
I guess you could argue he was ambivalent except that we see that from an early age he is a pacifist and cares deeply about peace. His dog dying was sad but it didn't change his demeanor. Idk why people always bring that up. His idealism for peace through nonviolence, which was Yahiko's motivation, was destroyed when they got betrayed and his best friend died. That has to rank up there with fiance dying in an explosion.
As you said, even though he's a "pacifist", it's pretty clear he doesn't really have any actual drive when it comes to the whole deal. And no, I don't think that "fiance dying in an explosion" equates to "My friend just took his own life rather than explore alternatives (can we maybe get Konan out of this pickle without sacrificing ourselves? Which for the record I think is pretty clear when Nagato just goes crazy right after) or think this through (what if he kills Konan anyway, for example)." Worse, Yahiko told Nagato "hey man, even after I'm gone, keep truckin' and find peace, aight?" only for Nagato to go completely ballistic thereafter, which I think only really cements that feeling that, yes, Nagato didn't really have any clue what he was doing without Yahiko or someone else telling him what to do.
Have you ever heard its better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all? I'll just appreciate how cool she was that one arc.
Contrary to that phrase, yes, there are times when you really shouldn't have, and if your long term plan with the character is basically "why, no, I'm never going to use her correctly", then throwing us a promise and then never building on it IS worse than never having done so.
Also Naruto and Sasuke weren't ridiculously powerful until the war started. Sasuke got beat up by Killer Bee and each of the Kages.
Naruto Sage Mode is pretty ridiculous already. He had absolute mastery over a form that even Jiraiya had no complete control over. And Sasuke not ridiculously powerful? I mean yeah he got completely manhandled by the raikage and Bee, but at that point it's also pretty clear that Sasuke's also just a little shit who's pretty overconfident and didn't prep for those fights properly, instead opting to jump in without thinking. In comparison, although the fight's pretty long, he manages to take out Danzou, who has all these crazy reality bending hijinx and was a peer of the third hokage. So sure, not at his peak, but still equipped with crazy experience and strats and abilities, and Sauce still is given the opportunity to wreck him.
Ok part 1 and part 2 had totally different power scales. Part 1 Kakashi almost pooped himself when he saw Orochimaru, yet in Part 2 he had no qualms in engaging two separate akatsuki members so thats not really relevant.
It's completely relevant even if Kishimoto forgot what he built up and promised the readers at that point.
The only thing that was clear in part 1 was that the collection of beast hosts would be the major driving force of part 2. We didn't even know why they wanted them so you don't know that they were meant to be the final villains. And who had a poor showing outside of Konan? They were still super strong and all had close fights.
"Boy, I sure was impressed with those close fights against mid tier ninja (or in Kakuzu's case, probably even less than midtier) or Sasuke!"
And I mean really? Even if Oro was the series boss at this point, the Akatsuki are built up to be major badasses and an organization that Oro even belonged to, and they're a big looming threat that should be huge even if they're not the final villains. I don't mind if Part 2 introduced another player, but to shortchange us in how incredibly easy it was for a bunch of kids to do the dirty work that experienced guys who've developed mastery over their own techniques could do? There's a limit between "youthful innovation" and a "fluke."
Um she was the hokage and pretty much everytime we saw Jiraiya we saw her. And after Jiraiya died we saw even more of her. She had plenty of screentime. All three of the sannin had relatively equal prominence in the series.
screentime isn't the same thing as "building empathy."
No argument it was stupid. Characters aren't allowed to make stupid decisions?
When your character pretty much makes only stupid decisions, yeah, things are pretty bad.
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Sorry but am I the only one, who wouhld enjoy this version better
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Read from left to right. I got tripped up for the first few panels.
Please tell me this is going to come out weekly in tandem with the actual series.
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Lol this comic is actually pretty funny. "I'll bring Sasuke back!… in a body bag" should have been their objective from the very beginning.
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Sasuke and Sakura's relationship summed up in one panel.
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LMAO that was great
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From wikipedia about Sakura - I guess that says everything about her role:
Although Sakura is the most recurring female character in Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto did not originally intend for Sakura to be the heroine of the series. Kishimoto attributes this to his being unable to draw good heroine characters, and fashioned Sakura as a girl who cannot understand men, the best example of a heroine he could come up with. Sakura's creation is a result of Kishimoto's desire to make a somewhat irritating character who was well-intentioned. Despite these elements, Kishimoto is fond of Sakura, as he feels that many of her personality traits are common among all people, thus giving her a sense of real humanity. When asked in an interview if there is something about Sakura's background that was never revealed, Kishimoto explains that he has never thought of Sakura as she is a "normal girl."
There we have it:
Sakura - a normal kind girl. -
Calling Sakura a normal girl is an insult to girls everywhere.
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@Purple:
I mean, yeah sure everyone wants peace. What makes him different? A "God Complex" when it's clearly shown that he's never been the one in control of his own life? When a character is clearly shown throughout the entire arc that he isn't capable of making his own decisions, from what is the audience supposed to judge his reactions? It's the exact opposite of Hody's problem, where Hody's in control of his own life but his actions are incredibly hollow. But in Pain's case, why should we even consider his point of view when it's pretty clear that his philosophy slowly moves to having no concept of his own place in the world. Likewise, I don't particularly mind subordinate characters. I mean really you'll always have some boss above you to deal with. The main problem here is where everything about the character is dictated by other forces.
He was Jiraiya's student and essentially the Naruto before Naruto. His complex stems from his painful past. Also it probably has something to do with Yahiko wanting to be a God and Nagato trying to fulfill that for him posthumously.
In the marathon example, there's a very clear endpoint in sight that, while it may be a pain in the ass to finish, you can still see it.
Now if you're a train that's on a track that's going around in circles, very different path and very different motivations.
It's basically as if Crocodile suddenly was thrust into the role of an island leader where all we saw of him was "he was the boss" and he suddenly had to protect it from mass destruction. Noble? Sure, but pretty much everything we've seen of the Croc has really amounted to that much, even after allying with the other pirates at Marineford.
No its not. During Gaara's defeat he showed receptiveness to switching his lifestyle. Crocoboy never did that. He ended as just another evil. Kishi and Oda generally use two different styles of villains.
- Sasori - Couldn't even take out a chunin and an old lady past her prime. So zero cost to the allies which is acceptable if we really saw Sakura grow into someone that was capable of fighting someone of this caliber, which really isn't possible when it's the first freakin arc.
- Hidan - completely gimped by Shikamaru
- Kakuzu - WELL MY FIRST APPROACH DIDN'T WORK, BUT I GUESS I'LL JUST TRY AGAIN THE EXACT SAME WAY.
- Deidara - fought with one arm, sure, but the fight against Sasuke was basically completely one sided.
- Itachi - basically let Sasuke have the win/was dying, but it's pretty clear that Sasuke more or less reached Itachi's level even without the mangekyou, and the one thing that really gave Itachi the upper hand was Susano-o
- Pain - basically as long as Naruto had access to sage chakra, the match was pretty one sided.
- Konan - LOL WATER.
- Kisame - Got absolutely destroyed by a guy probably at Kage level strength if all eight gates surpasses kage level strength, so yeah, a legitimately earned kill.
Soooo 9/10. And while the fights may not have been easy, the defeats were basically free handouts every arc. There's no sense of build up and really that "well hey these guys are the insanely powerful dudes that have mysterious plans with these super monsters but obviously are up to no good!" Make them more down the line, that's fine. If it's a harsh battle after leveling up characters more, cool. It's the same reason why the Straw Hats dominating everything in the New World so far without much trouble is kinda shaky plot writing, but Kishimoto's basically been doing it the entire Part 2.
Ok there was no lasting damage from Luffy beating Crocodile, it was just a near death bang out fight. So you can't just rate a defeat easy by the repercussions at the end.
Sasori- Sakura almost died like 3 times that fight. And she still had to be healed from near death at the end. Chiyo was essentially like the Sand Village's Danzo in terms of ability.
Hidan - gimped but when you actually look at his power it makes sense. He would have lost to Asuma and team the first time around if not for Kakuzu.
Kakuzu - No argument, although once again the point is that he had a great fight with Kakashi first.
Deidara - So he lost to Sasuke, but that was after beating Gaara one on one and catching a tailed beast by himself.
Itachi - You have a problem with Sasuke being that strong. I don't. Doesn't make him a pushover.
Pain - Beat Naruto one on one even though Naruto had sage mode, and destroyed Konoha singlehandedly. He only lost because he was weakened and Naruto essentially turned into the Kyubbi for a few minutes.
Konan- Agreed
Kisame - Right
I don't know what else to tell you. Sure I knew they were gonna be defeated when they were showing up but that didn't make them any less threatening. They all had powers that were both unusual and strong, and it made sense that they could beat strong ninja.The only real forbidden tech he had was the curse seal. Everything else was just summons, fireballs, and lightning. So basically, pretty much his repertoire in Part 1 amped up to an appreciable degree, which is, again, perfectly fine to have some boost after a time skip, but pretty incredulous to believe that it's enough to push him beyond these guys built up to be super criminals.
The point was answered in the manga that he had a crazy amount of growth, even for a timeskip. And it wasn't that Orochimaru gave him forbidden jutsus, its that he used them to help him train stronger.
Power levels vary, and you'll get that feeling of a hierarchy in the group, yes, but that doesn't change the fact (that you seem to keep missing) that THEY'RE ALL REPUTED SUPER S-CLASS MISSING NIN.
There is nothing left to discuss. You weren't impressed by the akatsuki. I was.
We're fighting with a shichibukai right now, and it's pretty clear that pre timeskip Luffy stands zero chance. Since then, however, we see he's really honed his skills. And the big thing was, even if Luffy's not at the big leagues during Marineford, he's still pretty close. Oda established that he and the rest of the guys at Sabaody were rising stars in the world before, so we got a sense that they have the potential to make it big and actually live the dream of becoming pirate king. Meanwhile, right before the timeskip, Naruto and friends were just low class genin. It's incredulous to believe that, even with backup and support that they'd be able to take these super criminals out without some big sacrifices. It's like if the royal chimera ants in Hunter x Hunter were taken out and everybody came out unscathed.
Um he wasn't "pretty close" to the big leagues at Marineford. He couldn't lay a finger on any important character in that place. He got beaten by Smoker in like 30 seconds for goodness sake. The amount that characters jump over a timeskip is up to the author. Gaara jumped a ton, Naruto jumped a decent amount, and Sasuke jumped a ton. Also the royal ants are nothing like the akatsuki. Strength and threat compared to other characters in their respective series are totally different.
And it's pretty clear that Luffy really capitalized on that time. He earned his place in the big leagues. Nothing the cast does in Naruto ever really feels like "these guys can hand Akatsuki their ass!" Again, set them up with maybe Akatsuki subordinates or something. Give them something in the relative playing field. In Toriko, the struggle's really felt with something like anyone against Tommyrod, and although they come out victorious, the struggle's still felt and it's very real, and hell Tommyrod was just some sou chef, not the absolute top tier of the villains. Killing off these major players within a handful of arcs really discredits their legitimacy as actual threats and is a big reason why people laugh at them the further you go into Part 2.
Honestly its too early to compare Luffy because I'm not sure what exactly he did to get so strong. At the moment its basically just haki and a huge strength gain. And Naruto and co. took down the closest thing to akatsuki subordinates during the retrieval arc in part 1. I didn't think it hurt their legitimacy at all. You laughed. I was impressed.
Not really. Kakashi delayed Kakuzu sorta but it's not like Naruto couldn't have just done the exact same thing with his rasenshuriken regardless. Kakashi was just there to back up Chouji and Ino, and he kinda gets away with a heart, but when Naruto shows up it's pretty much commentary time for that team. Naruto basically did most of the work that was effective against Kakuzu, and all it really took was "teach naruto elemental transformation!" which is a pretty hilarious considering it's something Jiraiya should have taught Naruto during the timeskip or, hell, maybe they should screen kids for that when they're in Ninja elementary school.
What fight were you reading? Kakashi basically fought 4 different ninjas while protecting Chouji, and he takes half of Kakuzus lives before Kakuzu starts acting stupid because Naruto showed up. Naruto oneshot him, and he couldn't have done that if Kakuzu was split into 4 like he was when Kakashi was fighting him. Also it takes 6 months to cut a leaf, so it would have been a waste for Jiraiya to teach him that. The only reason he learned was because kakashi figured out the clone training process.
Sakura, sure she basically was a puppet for Chiyo's battle experience, but again, what was the cost paid to defeat Sasori? I understand that Chiyo's a high level sand ninja, but for Sasori to be taken out with no direct cost in terms of the fight? It'd make sense if it were later on in Part 2 after the power creep for protags catch up to top tier villains, but right off the bat in Part 2? Waaayyyy too early and the first thing that tells us "maybe Akatsuki really isn't that serious and Kishimoto basically built up a pile of horseshit for villains."
Once again what was the direct cost of the Crocodile fight? Or Ichigo versus Renji in the soul society arc?
You basically just explained why the scene had no significance. When there's no sense of danger and people have escaped death from hairier situations and the death is kinda not made a big deal of, why would anyone be affected by it?
And yet people cared when Neji died. Or when Might Guy went 8th gate and almost died. Maybe not you, but other people. Sure Might Guy was saved by Naruto and Neji might get revived but they still had punch when they happened.
Really funny that the strongest ninja in the village is the one doing all the desk work. Regardless of that, there's still plenty of other ways to capitalize on her position and give us some growth, just like in the Rock Lee spinoff which pretty much does everything right with the secondary cast.
Netero? Sengoku? Yamamoto? Its a really common thing to do.
She hasn't had a huge role in part 2.
And yes, I mean that seriously. She's kinda just some background bureaucrat that, yes, she's more significant than a generic mob character, but we're never given any actual character. I think you're seriously missing the point of actually needing something to pull from to empathize with a character when they kick the bucket (and not just some last minute thing). We get a bit about the dynamics of Jiraiya and her, sure, but nothing that makes us say "wow! What a great character."
So Jiraiya being a perve is actual character but her being a horrible gambling drunk isn't? Her issues with Dan and little kid who was like Naruto aren't actual character? Her inability to deal with blood even though she was a medical ninja wasn't actual character? You're killing me here.
It only ever felt like he developed semi serious rapport with Naruto. Sasuke semi seriously acknowledges people in his life (only to throw it down the gutter once Itachi shows up), but he's never really shown with any actual, substantial interaction that tells us "Sakura has some incentive to really be clingy to this emo kid here." You could throw Sasuke on another unit and the level of interaction and friendship build up between Sakura and Sasuke wouldn't be affected that much. Sakura in the end just had the benefit that her crush was thrown on the same team as her, but nothing is ever really built up on it.
And seriously? Not reprehensible? You're really going to overlook that all of that is psychotic possessive crazy girlfriend level thinking right here and that she's basically psychologically insane during this point? And even when you bar that that the actions themselves aren't good?Maybe. Honestly that's not a part of the story I really care about. If you want to think she was crazy and developed a stalker clingy relationship that's your perogative. I'd rather think Kishi just offscreened the development because it makes more sense to me.
"Hmm, what group of people were corpses that we know end up not having just brick faces? Oh I know, Kabuto's entire contribution to the Ninja war."
There is difference between controlling a corpses limb and reviving their spirit. One is basically a puppet. The other is a temporary reincarnation. So yeah it makes sense haha
could would are very different phrases from is, and the point here is that just because he's part of it doesn't really mean he's actually really feeling it. Other than that though, we're only really told about their exploits but never shown what good things they actually did. Are we really going to believe that the group was nonviolent when they were renowned as a ninja cell without any idea of how they actually operated?
As you said, even though he's a "pacifist", it's pretty clear he doesn't really have any actual drive when it comes to the whole deal. And no, I don't think that "fiance dying in an explosion" equates to "My friend just took his own life rather than explore alternatives (can we maybe get Konan out of this pickle without sacrificing ourselves? Which for the record I think is pretty clear when Nagato just goes crazy right after) or think this through (what if he kills Konan anyway, for example)." Worse, Yahiko told Nagato "hey man, even after I'm gone, keep truckin' and find peace, aight?" only for Nagato to go completely ballistic thereafter, which I think only really cements that feeling that, yes, Nagato didn't really have any clue what he was doing without Yahiko or someone else telling him what to do.
Haha what? So I can't believe the author when he says they made a group of ninjas that preached nonviolence and had so much impact the dictator felt threatened? The word from God of this manga isn't enough for you? Ok. Saying it isn't likely doesn't mean it isn't true in universe. That's sounds like you're looking for things to pull apart. You made me have to go back and actually look at his motivation. His only real concern was protecting Yahiko and Konan. Also, whether this stuff was messed up, or made perfectly clear sense, it would only matter to you. I still wouldn't care that much about it. Because I don't need my villains to have perfect motivations or backstories to be effective. Personal preference.
Naruto Sage Mode is pretty ridiculous already. He had absolute mastery over a form that even Jiraiya had no complete control over. And Sasuke not ridiculously powerful? I mean yeah he got completely manhandled by the raikage and Bee, but at that point it's also pretty clear that Sasuke's also just a little shit who's pretty overconfident and didn't prep for those fights properly, instead opting to jump in without thinking. In comparison, although the fight's pretty long, he manages to take out Danzou, who has all these crazy reality bending hijinx and was a peer of the third hokage. So sure, not at his peak, but still equipped with crazy experience and strats and abilities, and Sauce still is given the opportunity to wreck him.
Danzo is clearly not that strong a ninja. You were supposed to catch that from the fact that he essentially needed like 15 lives just to fight Sasuke. He came off as a meddling lackey who was as good as the third. Sasuke should have wrecked him. Now while it was dumb that we were never given an explanation why either Jiraiya couldn't master sage mode or Naruto could do it so quickly, Sage mode itself is an S rank technique that makes him kage level. Not ridiculously strong. Same for Sasuke with his Susanno. They both were merely in the upper tier. It wasn't until the war started that they both started getting powers that ridiculously outclassed everyone else.
It's completely relevant even if Kishimoto forgot what he built up and promised the readers at that point.
Fine he messed up the power levels there. Not that big a deal.
"Boy, I sure was impressed with those close fights against mid tier ninja (or in Kakuzu's case, probably even less than midtier) or Sasuke!"
And I mean really? Even if Oro was the series boss at this point, the Akatsuki are built up to be major badasses and an organization that Oro even belonged to, and they're a big looming threat that should be huge even if they're not the final villains. I don't mind if Part 2 introduced another player, but to shortchange us in how incredibly easy it was for a bunch of kids to do the dirty work that experienced guys who've developed mastery over their own techniques could do? There's a limit between "youthful innovation" and a "fluke."
You didn't find them impressive. I did. Nothing more to really go into.
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Is this still going? Face it Algetrig, the comic is shit. Even you cannot avoid acknowledging that it's a shittly written long term narrative with immense glaring flaws and inconsistencies. And a lot of this isn't about "whether you like it or not" but "whether it is actually good". And…it's not good. It's just not and Purple is pretty much pointing out why it's NOT good rather than whether he likes it or not.
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He was Jiraiya's student and essentially the Naruto before Naruto. His complex stems from his painful past. Also it probably has something to do with Yahiko wanting to be a God and Nagato trying to fulfill that for him posthumously.
No its not. During Gaara's defeat he showed receptiveness to switching his lifestyle. Crocoboy never did that. He ended as just another evil. Kishi and Oda generally use two different styles of villains.
Ok there was no lasting damage from Luffy beating Crocodile, it was just a near death bang out fight. So you can't just rate a defeat easy by the repercussions at the end.
Sasori- Sakura almost died like 3 times that fight. And she still had to be healed from near death at the end. Chiyo was essentially like the Sand Village's Danzo in terms of ability.
Hidan - gimped but when you actually look at his power it makes sense. He would have lost to Asuma and team the first time around if not for Kakuzu.
Kakuzu - No argument, although once again the point is that he had a great fight with Kakashi first.
Deidara - So he lost to Sasuke, but that was after beating Gaara one on one and catching a tailed beast by himself.
Itachi - You have a problem with Sasuke being that strong. I don't. Doesn't make him a pushover.
Pain - Beat Naruto one on one even though Naruto had sage mode, and destroyed Konoha singlehandedly. He only lost because he was weakened and Naruto essentially turned into the Kyubbi for a few minutes.
Konan- Agreed
Kisame - Right
I don't know what else to tell you. Sure I knew they were gonna be defeated when they were showing up but that didn't make them any less threatening. They all had powers that were both unusual and strong, and it made sense that they could beat strong ninja.The point was answered in the manga that he had a crazy amount of growth, even for a timeskip. And it wasn't that Orochimaru gave him forbidden jutsus, its that he used them to help him train stronger.
There is nothing left to discuss. You weren't impressed by the akatsuki. I was.
Um he wasn't "pretty close" to the big leagues at Marineford. He couldn't lay a finger on any important character in that place. He got beaten by Smoker in like 30 seconds for goodness sake. The amount that characters jump over a timeskip is up to the author. Gaara jumped a ton, Naruto jumped a decent amount, and Sasuke jumped a ton. Also the royal ants are nothing like the akatsuki. Strength and threat compared to other characters in their respective series are totally different.
Honestly its too early to compare Luffy because I'm not sure what exactly he did to get so strong. At the moment its basically just haki and a huge strength gain. And Naruto and co. took down the closest thing to akatsuki subordinates during the retrieval arc in part 1. I didn't think it hurt their legitimacy at all. You laughed. I was impressed.
What fight were you reading? Kakashi basically fought 4 different ninjas while protecting Chouji, and he takes half of Kakuzus lives before Kakuzu starts acting stupid because Naruto showed up. Naruto oneshot him, and he couldn't have done that if Kakuzu was split into 4 like he was when Kakashi was fighting him. Also it takes 6 months to cut a leaf, so it would have been a waste for Jiraiya to teach him that. The only reason he learned was because kakashi figured out the clone training process.
Sakura, sure she basically was a puppet for Chiyo's battle experience, but again, what was the cost paid to defeat Sasori? I understand that Chiyo's a high level sand ninja, but for Sasori to be taken out with no direct cost in terms of the fight? It'd make sense if it were later on in Part 2 after the power creep for protags catch up to top tier villains, but right off the bat in Part 2? Waaayyyy too early and the first thing that tells us "maybe Akatsuki really isn't that serious and Kishimoto basically built up a pile of horseshit for villains."
Once again what was the direct cost of the Crocodile fight? Or Ichigo versus Renji in the soul society arc?
And yet people cared when Neji died. Or when Might Guy went 8th gate and almost died. Maybe not you, but other people. Sure Might Guy was saved by Naruto and Neji might get revived but they still had punch when they happened.
Netero? Sengoku? Yamamoto? Its a really common thing to do.
So Jiraiya being a perve is actual character but her being a horrible gambling drunk isn't? Her issues with Dan and little kid who was like Naruto aren't actual character? Her inability to deal with blood even though she was a medical ninja wasn't actual character? You're killing me here.
Maybe. Honestly that's not a part of the story I really care about. If you want to think she was crazy and developed a stalker clingy relationship that's your perogative. I'd rather think Kishi just offscreened the development because it makes more sense to me.
There is difference between controlling a corpses limb and reviving their spirit. One is basically a puppet. The other is a temporary reincarnation. So yeah it makes sense haha
Haha what? So I can't believe the author when he says they made a group of ninjas that preached nonviolence and had so much impact the dictator felt threatened? The word from God of this manga isn't enough for you? Ok. Saying it isn't likely doesn't mean it isn't true in universe. That's sounds like you're looking for things to pull apart. You made me have to go back and actually look at his motivation. His only real concern was protecting Yahiko and Konan. Also, whether this stuff was messed up, or made perfectly clear sense, it would only matter to you. I still wouldn't care that much about it. Because I don't need my villains to have perfect motivations or backstories to be effective. Personal preference.
Danzo is clearly not that strong a ninja. You were supposed to catch that from the fact that he essentially needed like 15 lives just to fight Sasuke. He came off as a meddling lackey who was as good as the third. Sasuke should have wrecked him. Now while it was dumb that we were never given an explanation why either Jiraiya couldn't master sage mode or Naruto could do it so quickly, Sage mode itself is an S rank technique that makes him kage level. Not ridiculously strong. Same for Sasuke with his Susanno. They both were merely in the upper tier. It wasn't until the war started that they both started getting powers that ridiculously outclassed everyone else.
Fine he messed up the power levels there. Not that big a deal.
You didn't find them impressive. I did. Nothing more to really go into.
This comment sums up everything that is wrong with Naruto fanbase .
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I'm not going to even try to respond to him anymore. Once was enough, and all he's been saying is "I LIKE IT WHICH MAKES IT GOOD. MY OPINION IS RIGHT AND YOURS IS WRONG."
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You guys are right. Also I didn't start this conversation to try to change anyones opinion. Just to see why so many of you dislike it. We are reading from two separate povs. You guys want a well written story, I'm pretty much satisfied with cool fights and interesting powers. To each their own. But please go back to mocking something that most of you guys don't like. Thats a MUCH better use of time.
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You guys are right. Also I didn't start this conversation to try to change anyones opinion. Just to see why so many of you dislike it. We are reading from two separate povs. You guys want a well written story, I'm pretty much satisfied with cool fights and interesting powers. To each their own. But please go back to mocking something that most of you guys don't like. Thats a MUCH better use of time.
You having low standards is exactly why you don't understand why people are mocking the series ( despite them providing good reasons for it ) .
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You guys are right. Also I didn't start this conversation to try to change anyones opinion. Just to see why so many of you dislike it. We are reading from two separate povs. You guys want a well written story, I'm pretty much satisfied with cool fights and interesting powers. To each their own. But please go back to mocking something that most of you guys don't like. Thats a MUCH better use of time.
I have a question.
Did you only register just to do that?You don't have to reply.
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@275:
I have a question.
Did you only register just to do that?You don't have to reply.
Not at all. I actually found this site because I looking for an interesting one piece forum. Everybody here discussed the merits of the chapter and theories in civil way, which was cool. I haven't posted over there yet because I can't think anything that would have added to the discussion. I post other places. But this thread is like the opposite of that. Everywhere else its like, talk here if you like this subject. In this thread, its just mockery and pointing out faults. I found that weird.
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Man. You guys have gotten so used to just ripping on the series and insulting any obvious idiot that comes in, that someone like Aletrig actually comes in with reasonably valid points, good grammar, and an overall ability to defend stuff, and you all just fall to pieces while trying to bash the newb, while still claiming you've won the argument. Its like Mustard all over again.
I think he's got quite a few valid points though.
Some of you that are legit debating, (purple) keep it up.
Those of you just insulting the newcomer to insult the Naruto fan… stop it. It's embarrassing.
Not at all. I actually found this site because I looking for an interesting one piece forum. Everybody here discussed the merits of the chapter and theories in civil way, which was cool. I haven't posted over there yet because I can't think anything that would have added to the discussion. I post other places. But this thread is like the opposite of that. Everywhere else its like, talk here if you like this subject. In this thread, its just mockery and pointing out faults. I found that weird.
It evolved over the course of years, due to us actually liking the mutual series once upon a time and then them slowly descending into huge wastes of potential… and then descending further from that into just downright bad.
If the series were to be read in one sitting maybe it wouldn't have happened so much, but week by week for years with plenty of time to see how absurd and generally dumb and badly written things tend to get? Didn't hurt.
(Also, we GUESSED, as JOKES, about Obito being Tobi, the 10 tails in the moon, Danzo having a sharingan, among other things. When you make a joke about the dumbest thing you can think of, and then it turns out to be entirely accurate months later, well... that just doesn't bode well for the series in general.)
The tipping point for Naruto (here at least) was when Pain, a perfect opportunity for the secondaries to show off was wasted, followed by a deus ex machina revival of everyone after a speech that left the entire affair without consequence or meaning... followed immediatley by Naruto's dreams having been basically achieved by accident, sort of off camera.
Bleach... pretty much since the middle of the never-ended Aizen war, but especially since post-Aizen.
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Not at all. I actually found this site because I looking for an interesting one piece forum. Everybody here discussed the merits of the chapter and theories in civil way, which was cool. I haven't posted over there yet because I can't think anything that would have added to the discussion. I post other places. But this thread is like the opposite of that. Everywhere else its like, talk here if you like this subject. In this thread, its just mockery and pointing out faults. I found that weird.
At one point there was a discussion of merit's and theories. But then the merits became few and far between and the theories became increasingly pointless when the rules kept getting thrown out the window. This thread is not actually the 5th thread for this. This is a very very old discussion. What you're seeing now are people just wanting closure or a weekly dose of what has become almost comical level of badness compared to what they started out as. Though sometimes Bleach is so bad it's not funny and actually makes me angry.
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He was Jiraiya's student and essentially the Naruto before Naruto. His complex stems from his painful past. Also it probably has something to do with Yahiko wanting to be a God and Nagato trying to fulfill that for him posthumously.
Again, occupations are not descriptions of personality. And basically all you've shown is a character arc that was basically thrust upon us right before his death, which doesn't really give us any semblance of a character arc.
No its not. During Gaara's defeat he showed receptiveness to switching his lifestyle. Crocoboy never did that. He ended as just another evil. Kishi and Oda generally use two different styles of villains.
Same difference. Croc was shown with one allied help sorta deal before Marineford, and Gaara was shown as "well I guess we're allies now" against Kimimaro. For all I know, Croc could be one of those pirates that ends up helping Luffy out and follows his dream of being pirate king (shown, not told to us, in Miss Goldenweek's side story). Rival pirate? Sure, but so was Traffy.
Ok there was no lasting damage from Luffy beating Crocodile, it was just a near death bang out fight.
On the other hand, Luffy lost. Twice. Sure, in the same arc, but there is value in a guy who just can't get beat down. It shows us that Luffy's really knocking on heaven's door. Sure he has plot shield, but those losses really tell us something about the big players in the world. Just like when Zoro got his ass handed to him by Mihawk. At this point in the story right now, it's still perfectly fine for him to have occasional defeats because he's going against the true rulers of the world.
So you can't just rate a defeat easy by the repercussions at the end.
Well in my evaluations I used both ease (Konan) and repercussions, which DO have some value added to what they imply for the plot and relative strength of the fighters.
Sasori- Sakura almost died like 3 times that fight.
"Almost died!" doesn't cut it when the fight keeps going. Three times, four times, whatever the number is, unless the fight's done and done and the results are laid out, we've seen enough people come from the brink of defeat and pull a clutch victory.
And she still had to be healed from near death at the end. Chiyo was essentially like the Sand Village's Danzo in terms of ability.
And yet you rated Danzo as "not a strong ninja?" That said, yes, Chiyo is probably one of Sand's more experienced idiots. But no, he couldn't kill even the inexperienced girl?
Hidan - gimped but when you actually look at his power it makes sense. He would have lost to Asuma and team the first time around if not for Kakuzu.
Which is even worse now that you described it that way.
Kakuzu - No argument, although once again the point is that he had a great fight with Kakashi first.
Arguably, It was an incredibly stupid pre-fight as well because "Oh no! The enemy has a vulnerability to certain elements! What can Kakashi, the ninja of a thousand techniques, possibly do against him?"
Deidara - So he lost to Sasuke, but that was after beating Gaara one on one and catching a tailed beast by himself.
By holding a village hostage, which I actually think is the right way to go about it, but other than that his battle strength is kinda… eh.
Itachi - You have a problem with Sasuke being that strong. I don't. Doesn't make him a pushover.
I think his fight was pretty unremarkable more than the Sasuke power creep (but yes, that's a problem as well), but Itachi's always been blessed by Kishimoto with some incredibly absurd abilities that made him super top tier anyway, even after death.
Pain - Beat Naruto one on one even though Naruto had sage mode
Lost four of six bodies in a six on one vs Naruto, fifth one got turned into one of my garden ornaments, and once Naruto had an actual one on one with him, Naruto trounced him with a rasengan after coming out of the new moon thing.
and destroyed Konoha singlehandedly.
When we see guys that can level entire plains from other villages, I feel like "nuking a village" is, while admittedly pretty cool, is not that impressive.
He only lost because he was weakened and Naruto essentially turned into the Kyubbi for a few minutes.
Actually, in this fight, Naruto was actually using his brain here and remembered "this guy has a gap in time where he can't do anything! Attack his weak point for massive damage!" It really didn't have much to do with anything concerning his being weakened, and in fact the only reason why he got the advantaged to pin down Naruto earlier was because of robo pain's noble sacrifice.
I don't know what else to tell you. Sure I knew they were gonna be defeated when they were showing up but that didn't make them any less threatening. They all had powers that were both unusual and strong, and it made sense that they could beat strong ninja.
Honestly, that's the big thing. They're very unique characters in the Naruto universe and some great, and while we know that at some point, the antagonists are going to be defeated, but to be defeated right off the bat?
The point was answered in the manga that he had a crazy amount of growth, even for a timeskip. And it wasn't that Orochimaru gave him forbidden jutsus, its that he used them to help him train stronger.
We were never even suggested that idea. Granted, It's fine that Sauce is stronger than the other two initially (hell, I think in general Oro is a more competent guy than Tsunade or Jiraiya), but to be way above these other guys who've cultivated years of experience is crazy.
Um he wasn't "pretty close" to the big leagues at Marineford. He couldn't lay a finger on any important character in that place. He got beaten by Smoker in like 30 seconds for goodness sake.
Pretty close in the sense that, while he's not there, it's pretty much certain that Luffy is in the tier right below these superfreaks. He's not your average pirate, and he's not even your super above average pirate.
The amount that characters jump over a timeskip is up to the author. Gaara jumped a ton, Naruto jumped a decent amount, and Sasuke jumped a ton.
Sure, but when the jump is waaayyyy over the top such that it really really neutralizes the threat level of the main villain group, you goofed.
Also the royal ants are nothing like the akatsuki. Strength and threat compared to other characters in their respective series are totally different.
Sure they're not the same, but the relative threats are pretty demanding. I think that, with enough time and training, Gon and friends might be able to have beaten the ants without as many sacrifices as they had. Gon's future potential basically was this super incredibly buff guy that can really deal some major damage, but the restriction in this case was time. They don't have nearly the amount of time they'd like to plan and make sure the pieces are set (but they do a damn good job setting things up anyway), and so the cost was either life sacrifice (Netero) or some reeeaaalll hairy scenarios (Shoot)
Same deal with Akatsuki. If you're going to have a fight come early against them, really show that there is a clear and present danger. These guys are top elites who don't sweat fighting uncontrolled forces of nature and even see untamed beasts as taking candy from a baby, and the fights against them should be equally monstrous. The fillers in the anime are poorly written, but I'd imagine they provide a good amount of buffer time to really say "well hey, here's a spot where we can develop the characters and not have most of this villainous cast get wiped out like obligatory checklists for an arc!" Also, actual choreography that's followable compared to Kishimoto's.
Honestly its too early to compare Luffy because I'm not sure what exactly he did to get so strong. At the moment its basically just haki and a huge strength gain.
Haki's a pretty fucking huge deal when at this point in the story, it's pretty much a prerequisite to having any chance against the top tiers, and it's pretty clear he also honed his abilities concerning his gears. Clear outcomes, very understandable as to the mechanics of such training (harden your body to hit things harder! Predict things as they come!. Now combine that with super speed and/or just a general mass size increase and you've got a formula for destruction). This isn't some intangible training formula. It's very clear what things Luffy worked on and improved on rather than "Luffy just got a bunch of forbidden techniques to help him train."
And Naruto and co. took down the closest thing to akatsuki subordinates during the retrieval arc in part 1.
While as a team as strong as jonin and pretty cool, I doubt they're someone on the scale as, let's say for example Kabuto, Oro's right hand dude. Right in the first arc, we are suggested that Akatsuki members have their own subordinates, hell in the Pain arc the group was pretty big (so what happened to the rest of them? Did they all just suddenly die after Nagato flipped a shit?). And then it turned out that of the two subordinates they had, Tobi was just the mastermind and… I don't even know why he took on that role when the other one was pretty comfy. Plus five of the 9 members they had even knew there was a bigger head honcho... but anyway so Tobi wasn't really a subordinate, and the other one was a brainwashed Kabuto (who ended up working for a guy who used to work in Akatsuki anyway). No others? Really?
What fight were you reading? Kakashi basically fought 4 different ninjas while protecting Chouji, and he takes half of Kakuzus lives before Kakuzu starts acting stupid because Naruto showed up.
Kakashi. Master of 1000 techniques. Ninja whose sole weaknesses are other elements of a certain type. And he can shadow clone tech, even if not as effectively as Naruto. Whatever shall he do?
Kakashi, the master planner of Team 7 and potential hokage candidate and general "guy who knows what he's doing" can clearly see an obvious weakness to Kakuzu and doesn't capitalize on it. Such toe-to-toeness.
Naruto oneshot him, and he couldn't have done that if Kakuzu was split into 4 like he was when Kakashi was fighting him.
Well, current standards are showing "well the guy seems stupid to fall for the same trick multiple times" so what I learned from what I saw in that fight was "well, gee, Kakuzu's a fucking moron."
See? It's this sort of implication about the fight and their relative implications and ease that really tell the reader "these guys really aren't all that special"
Also it takes 6 months to cut a leaf, so it would have been a waste for Jiraiya to teach him that. The only reason he learned was because kakashi figured out the clone training process.
Implying Jiraiya couldn't have seen that himself after the first week or month.
Or worse, let's suppose he does spend six months cutting a leaf. Great! Now he has nature manipulation and can spend the other 1.5 years inventing new techniques (or hell, finish his disciple's technique, or hell, why didn't Jiraiya finish it up?). Clear goals, clear improvement. But let's suppose that we see the six months as something of a time drag and want to explore alternatives such as what actually happened.
Is a bigger rasengan made by really better than nature manipulation?
Once again what was the direct cost of the Crocodile fight?
Clear plot leveling, showing us this crazy James Bond villain who's also incredibly strong. Showed that Luffy isn't completely invincible and might go through some rough patches in his journey. It's why Arabasta is one of One Piece's highly regarded arcs where Luffy really does struggle
Or Ichigo versus Renji in the soul society arc?
Renji is basically Ichigo's equal at that point in the story. Neither have mastered the true upper level of powers, and they're both motivated by their dedication to Rukia, but in a few different ways. It's a clear movement in the plot to resolve this conflict right here and now and really demonstrates where the characters are. Also, it gives us a hint about the hollow side of Ichigo that's still present in him.
But really this example doesn't compare because Renji isn't built up to the same expectations as "evil super villain group planninng on maybe world domination or something?" A "Cost" is necessary when the character or antagonizing force has been built up and shown to be some real crazy stuff way above what the protagonists can normally handle on a more equal level. It's more along the lines of something like, let's say, the espada. In fact, I like that analogy. 10ish guys built up reaaalll big only to die in reaaallll cheap ways. Akatsuki are these guys who don't sweat taking down these chaotic maelstroms given animal form, and Espadas are pretty close to Vasto Lorde level if they weren't before then, which Hitsu said "basically, if aizen has ten of these guys, we're fucked." And they all die in stupid, stupid ways. Granted some hilarious ways given the circumstances (Mayuri's fight against Apollo, but the fight itself was also really awful).
Oh except I guess Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, where Grimmjow's fight was legitimately aight and Ulq was only really beat by Ichigo going full crazy pills with his hollow form and well….......... cardio.
And yet people cared when Neji died.
We cared in the sense of "What the fuck? Why would Kishimoto do this after basically completely neglecting his character?"
We care because we liked the guy in Part 1, dammit. And to see him go out in such a stupid way is so ridiculous. He gets zero screen time essentially, and he goes out in a way that's pretty damn stupid. And worse, Kishimoto completely used the bird analogy completely wrong (and why were there guys forming it when they didn't even know Neji?)See? We got empathy for the character because he had what we call an "arc". and I'm not talking a general story arc that encompasses story chapters. I'm talking a general growth for the character where we really get a feel for the character's plight, struggle, and place in life. We see him or her develop, make mistakes, have a weird-ass thought process, but ultimately they grow into a more mature or wiser character that really understands how they need to improve in life. Or maybe they don't. That's cool too, but all in all there needs to be a "journey" that happens with exploration so we the readers can say "Hey! I feel ya man. I really empathize with you." if this sort of sacrifice is to be made.
Sakura's case on the other hand is a case of complete devolution where she becomes completely defined by her irrational obsession with Sauces. When you build a character that the audience has nothing to base any identity of or really say "sakura's a sweet girl but she's misguided" and worse, crush any sliver of development (friendships with Ino, kinda figuring out what role she has on the team… hey wasn't she really really ridiculous smart at one point? That's how she passed the first phase of the chunin exam (technically)) she had throughout part 1 (but the ball for that was basically rolling by the retrieval arc), of course most of us here are going to roast her character for doing some incredibly stupid decisions rather than say "I feel that there are people who get abused irl liek dis if u cry errytiem"
And while Tsunade had a small nice arc in her own actual chapter arc, it's never really explored anything beyond that which makes her really an... identifiable character. I like her, I like the character, but I (speaking for most of us) don't have anything that really gives us any real reason to become attached to the character. Granted, Jiraiya didn't have an arc either really, but he was built in a role that gave us insight and leadership that gave us something to empathize with because, hey, he's a funny, likeable guy that knows what he's doing, really gives a damn about Naruto, puts his all in and really is steadfast in his beliefs. We got to really get a feel for his character. It's not just "he is really good at doing x and y." It's also that "we really like his character as a mentor and general close friend who really sticks to his guns." In most cases though, you'd build that with an arc, just like Neji.
But instead in Neji's case, the only emotion we can feel is disgust.
Or when Might Guy went 8th gate and almost died. Maybe not you, but other people.
Nah the general concensus is that everyone likes Guy. But we also knew that he wasn't the one to finish off Madara so that was pretty much a wasted sacrifice. And Kouch brought up that Lee could've been the one to receive that considering he's basically Naruto in motivation but hasn't had any time to shine, but really I think for the most part people thought that while Guy's sacrifice sucked, him actually doing anything in general is awesome. Again, secondary character importance. They build the "world."
Sure Might Guy was saved by Naruto and Neji might get revived but they still had punch when they happened.
They had punch for all the wrong reasons, but sure.
Netero?
Did things on a whim, and even then he goes on things he really thinks is called for (or might be fun for him). Otherwise, he has a bunch of younger whippersnappers to give incredibly difficult tasks to but really entrusts them with it, but he gets to spar with them, too. Not completely (hell, not even remotely) tied down to the desk at all.
Sengoku?
Isn't the strongest guy in the Marines. Now, Akainu in the reigns, sounds like a desk job, but are we really going to expect him to sit idly by and have the rest of the world go on without him? Let's not get Darth in here.
Yamamoto?
Had no opportunities to exercise his strength until things got messy. Are we really going to send our strongest guy to catch a bunch of rats? And his plan (although stupid. In fact, Yamamoto being at the desk really was stupid because a lot of his reasoning is stupid) was to prep for total war against Aizen than just go rambo all over Hueco Mundo. But all in all, kinda in the same position as Netero and could head out and murder as he wanted. Like in the current Quincy arc.
Its a really common thing to do.
Course, you do need responsible leadership that's been there, done that and can take up important clutch plays when the going gets tough, but you don't have to have your strongest guy completely tied down to filling out Konoha's income statement for the Daimyo's auditors or telling people "Your mission is to clean the toilets." or alternatively, not being out there in charge and being a crucial cornerstone of victory. It makes a helluva lot of sense for the Nara clan to be taking that organizational work than even Kakashi, let alone a dull orange suited ninja or an emotionally unstable defector who's threatened to annihilate the village on more than one occasion.
So Jiraiya being a perve is actual character but her being a horrible gambling drunk isn't? Her issues with Dan and little kid who was like Naruto aren't actual character? Her inability to deal with blood even though she was a medical ninja wasn't actual character? You're killing me here.
Nobody is saying that characters having flaws is a bad thing. In fact, it's a great thing. Gives them more depth. tsunade got her character arc, and it was fine. But we barely know anything else about her because we are never shown anything thereafter. The experience wasn't that broad, and at most we know she has bad gambling habits. But while Jiraiya had the benefit of being in the mentor's seat and being the Obiwan Kenobi figure here, Neji's arc was incredibly involved in terms of his character. His general feel of nihilism, his gifts, his history, his complete opposition to Naruto's ideals because he's arguably a better reflection of Naruto than Gaara even though Gaara is literally in the same position, a sense of unjust in his background that isn't just "my boyfriend and brother died because of this necklace" where his uncle died due to some wack traditions, you really get a sense of who Neji is and what sort of game he plays.
Let us contrast this with, instead, his original death in the retrieval arc that turns out "we saved him at the last second!" Turns out Neji's not so perfect. Eye powers do actually have an exploitable weakness. But Neji's gone through his arc. It's clear he's learned his mistakes (unlike Gaara, but I'll give you that Gaara not as bad as he could have been), and he's become a more respectable character through it. Big thing, it really shows during that fight and makes his overall weight in readers' minds as something gigantic. His death later on had none of that.
Maybe. Honestly that's not a part of the story I really care about.
I too ignore signs that people are crazy.
If you want to think she was crazy and developed a stalker clingy relationship that's your perogative.
Oh I don't think. I know. Because it was actually shown…
I'd rather think Kishi just offscreened the development because it makes more sense to me.
…rather than told.
There is difference between controlling a corpses limb and reviving their spirit. One is basically a puppet. The other is a temporary reincarnation. So yeah it makes sense haha
My point was that "what does a corpse necessarily have to do with "no feeling?" Hell I think that's why people liked the robo pain a lot because he was all smiley and shit. Not quite his own emotion, but he's definitely expressing something.
Haha what? So I can't believe the author when he says they made a group of ninjas that preached nonviolence and had so much impact the dictator felt threatened?
"Show, don't tell."
I mean while I didn't see their "we don't do the violence thing", we did see "we are really good at the violence thing.
The word from God of this manga isn't enough for you?
Only in databooks for really small things… but why should I ever be convinced just by narration that "oh they were something" when seeing is believing? One of the hugest problems in The Last Airbender movie directed by M. Night Sham was that Katara was narrating all of the juicy bits so they could transition from scene to scene. We never got a sense that Aang was actually accomplishing anything in terms of freeing captured earth kingdom villages. Instead, we got "And so Aang freed this village" or, if you really feel like Sauce/Sakura development was better offscreen "My brother and the princess got to know each other very well, so you could say things are getting pretty serious". It's both a visual experience and a written experience, and even in writing, actions taken in novels speak much louder than an omniscient being telling us ""Fuck it, Sakura and Sasuke become good chums and they even went on dates while you guys weren't looking but I'm going to omit any reference to those scenes."
Ok. Saying it isn't likely doesn't mean it isn't true in universe.
People lie or retcon, yes. Are you really that unfamiliar with that concept?
That's sounds like you're looking for things to pull apart. You made me have to go back and actually look at his motivation.
I mean when you get into the nitty gritty of it.. Yeah? It ends up just expanding things out even more, but the problems are there, and while there are a few good things here and there, most of it is legitimately piss poor writing.
His only real concern was protecting Yahiko and Konan.
So you're telling me the God Complex wasn't really there. Gotcha.
Also, whether this stuff was messed up, or made perfectly clear sense, it would only matter to you. I still wouldn't care that much about it. Because I don't need my villains to have perfect motivations or backstories to be effective. Personal preference.
Nobody needs perfect motivations. Some can be straightforward. Shishio's super duper great because he's a striaghtforward villain.
The point you're missing is it sucks when the author completely halfasses it.
Danzo is clearly not that strong a ninja.
Implying years of experience, perhaps if his Shisui eye were working, and reality bending hijinx aren't strong. PLUS being a hokage candidate (even though his actual standings as a kage are pretty hilarious as well because of his shady dealings).
You were supposed to catch that from the fact that he essentially needed like 15 lives just to fight Sasuke.
Hey when I have the ability to use cheat codes to fight a little shit when I'm old and not as strong as Clint Eastwood do you really think I'm going to pass it up? Of course Danzo isn't as strong. He's definitely not in his prime, that's for sure, but the old dog still has a bunch of tricks up his sleeve that say "Hey Don't fuck with me you runt." And of course reality bending is hella strong. If Sauce didn't have Karin by his side narrating everything that was happening, he probably could have been done in. Against any other character, Danzo probably could have fucked with them enough til they cried uncle.
He came off as a meddling lackey who was as good as the third.
And the third was hella strong too, even past his prime. I don't believe Danzo was as strong as Sarutobi, but hey, he's still kickin'
Sasuke should have wrecked him.
Should've would've could've but didn't. Again, show vs tell.
Now while it was dumb that we were never given an explanation why either Jiraiya couldn't master sage mode or Naruto could do it so quickly, Sage mode itself is an S rank technique that makes him kage level. Not ridiculously strong. Same for Sasuke with his Susanno.
Implying Kage level isn't supposed to be pretty ridiculous itself. This is Naruto's ideal, right? Be the strongest dude around in the village, and in particular the hokage is the strongest of the five kages because it is the hokage [sic].
It's also why Guy's eight gate thing is really a feat unto itself because the power level really is out of this world and puts him on par with Madara, but even before then at the seventh or sixth gate we can already see "Holy shit, this guy's fucking amazing in terms of battle power and outclasses most of everyone below him. "Kage" level strength was supposed to be "holy shit" and doesn't need to be uber tier, but it's a pretty crazy power level when people like Hashirama, who had magic cells, Tobirama, who invented a ton of techs and even that one forbidden one that was really really really ridiculously unethical, Sarutobi, who was trained by those two guys and even past his prime is stupid strong, Minato, a child prodigy, taught by one of the legendary ninja taught by Sarutobi and while not good as many things as the previous two guys was really fucking good at just one thing and really maximizing on it because that one thing he was really really good at turns out to be pretty much the best thing a ninja could ask for, Yes, Kage level should be something insane.
Again, yet another reason why inconsistent power scaling really fucks with the perspective of things.
They both were merely in the upper tier. It wasn't until the war started that they both started getting powers that ridiculously outclassed everyone else.
"Well, they outclass the rest of their peers, their elders, and the majority of the world save for a handful of the top echelon (and even then they're pretty much on par), but it's okay because it could be worse!"
Fine he messed up the power levels there. Not that big a deal.
Except when he does it consistently, which happened right at the beginning of Part 2 and only started the snowball down the hill.
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Read from left to right. I got tripped up for the first few panels.
Please tell me this is going to come out weekly in tandem with the actual series.
I hope so… So freakin funny
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It is so damn weird seeing a legit back and forth here.
That isn't Juju based.
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Yeah, but on the other hand Juju's responses would likely be completely off the deep end.
But bottom line: The story of Naruto is one of broken promises. Kishimoto cultivated a cornucopia of wonderful ideas in its infancy and promised the readers a set of expectations only to betray them one by one and then rub a huge rock of salt in the wounds later on by augmenting the smaller wounds into big ones.
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And in the end, Naruto festered into a cancer made of love. <3
Though, there was an interesting point someone made about why a lot of the kids are being sidelined in spite of the theme SUPPOSEDLY (possibly) having to do with surpassing one's elders. I wonder why Kishi did have Might Gai open all the gates while Lee could have attempted this and fulfilled this SUPPOSED theme Kishi had (as flimsy as it is but he keeps on doing this stupid Madara/Harashima, 6 sage kids, and Naruto/Sasuke thing). I'm wondering if he is indeed saving this development for the dreaded Part 3 (assuming it will happen which SEEMS fairly likely since Naruto is nowhere near Hokage material…ugh).
I'm just going to assume that Part 3 is going to happen. After all, there HAS to be a reason why Kishi shifted Sakura, Sasuke, and Naruto's personality BACK TO SQUARE ONE. Has any of them developed at all?
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And in the end, Naruto festered into a cancer made of love. <3
Though, there was an interesting point someone made about why a lot of the kids are being sidelined in spite of the theme SUPPOSEDLY (possibly) having to do with surpassing one's elders. I wonder why Kishi did have Might Gai open all the gates while Lee could have attempted this and fulfilled this SUPPOSED theme Kishi had (as flimsy as it is but he keeps on doing this stupid Madara/Harashima, 6 sage kids, and Naruto/Sasuke thing). I'm wondering if he is indeed saving this development for the dreaded Part 3 (assuming it will happen which SEEMS fairly likely since Naruto is nowhere near Hokage material…ugh).
I'm just going to assume that Part 3 is going to happen. After all, there HAS to be a reason why Kishi shifted Sakura, Sasuke, and Naruto's personality BACK TO SQUARE ONE. Has any of them developed at all?
Of course they have.
-Sakura is even more love insane than love cancer can provide
-Sasuke has changed his motivation from crushing Itachi to crushing some other force that likely has nothing to do with his current predicament
-Naruto isn't wearing as much orange now -
@Purple:
Of course they have.
-Sakura is even more love insane than love cancer can provide
-Sasuke has changed his motivation from crushing Itachi to crushing some other force that likely has nothing to do with his current predicament
-Naruto isn't wearing as much orange nowThey feel even less developed than at the beginning of the manga, which is saying something.
Naruto: I'm gonna prove myself to everybody! –- NOPE, dude, you're the son of a Hokage and destinied to be a hero. Hard work outta the window.
Sasuke: I wanna kill my brother --- I wanna create a revolution because I still hate people
Sakura: I'm gonna be useful and get Sasuke to fall in love with me! --- Still useless, still haven't given up on SasukeI wonder what would've happened if the series was focused on Lee and his team instead.
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@Zar:
They feel even less developed than at the beginning of the manga, which is saying something.
Naruto: I'm gonna prove myself to everybody! –- NOPE, dude, you're the son of a Hokage and destinied to be a hero. Hard work outta the window.
Sasuke: I wanna kill my brother --- I wanna create a revolution because I still hate people
Sakura: I'm gonna be useful and get Sasuke to fall in love with me! --- Still useless, still haven't given up on SasukeI wonder what would've happened if the series was focused on Lee and his team instead.
That was the point of Purple's post lol. And we already know what would happen if we focused on Lee and buddies. It's called Real Naruto.
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Don't care, still excited about the ending. 700 is probably the last chapter, plus the movie (which spoilers Kakashi as the next Hokage). I've been reading this since early Naruto and it's nice to see the first manga I got into finish, even if it's not close to what it used to be.
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Through Naruto, I have learned to empathize.
For example, I don't think that Sakura's parents ever did anything to warrant their daughter's mental psyche collapse in front of their very eyes every day through her daily pilgrimage to her Sasuke shrine where she keeps a lifelike model of Sasuke's head made of male cattle feces. Or just plain talking about saving this kid who's been general shit to her and irredeemable in every sense of the word.
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Don't care, still excited about the ending. 700 is probably the last chapter, plus the movie (which spoilers Kakashi as the next Hokage). I've been reading this since early Naruto and it's nice to see the first manga I got into finish, even if it's not close to what it used to be.
There's no way it's going to finish in 7 chapters. Not when we're about to waste the next one with talking, and then actual fight with flashbacks peppered in between punches which will take at least ten chapters given Kishi's track record, and we don't even know what will happen afterwards.
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There's no way it's going to finish in 7 chapters. Not when we're about to waste the next one with talking, and then actual fight with flashbacks peppered in between punches which will take at least ten chapters given Kishi's track record, and we don't even know what will happen afterwards.
Then again, this is Kishimoto we're talking about. He could just throw us a bone and end the series abruptly
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700 is probably the last chapter
Unless there's an editor with a gun to Kishimoto's head, I don't see the series ending in seven chapters.
Based on his track record, we're more likely to get that many chapters of just Sasuke and Naruto arguing before, during, and after the fight before Orochimaru or Kabuto pops up.
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Unless there's an editor with a gun to Kishimoto's head, I don't see the series ending in seven chapters.
Based on his track record, we're more likely to get that many chapters of just Sasuke and Naruto arguing before, during, and after the fight before Orochimaru or Kabuto pops up.
I shouldn't have used the word probably, and I definitely wouldn't be surprised if he goes longer, but if the movie is pure plot it's possible, I think.
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So guys, it's been so long since this final battle started that I'm having trouble remembering all that much about Obito. Namely, I'm trying to remember all the reasons he's a bad villain. The reasons that immediately come to mind are 1: he's existence as main villain is extremely improbable and contrived. 2: It clashes with how he was previously portrayed prior to the war. 3: his backstory hardly seems like sufficient justification for turning completely genocidal-nihilistic. 4: pretty much every bad thing that happened in the series can be traced back to one sad child, which simultaneously makes the world seem really small and completely vindicates the belief that the Uchiha deserved to be wiped out. Any other reasons that I missed?
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So guys, it's been so long since this final battle started that I'm having trouble remembering all that much about Obito. Namely, I'm trying to remember all the reasons he's a bad villain. The reasons that immediately come to mind are 1: he's existence as main villain is extremely improbable and contrived. 2: It clashes with how he was previously portrayed prior to the war. 3: his backstory hardly seems like sufficient justification for turning completely genocidal-nihilistic. 4: pretty much every bad thing that happened in the series can be traced back to one sad child, which simultaneously makes the world seem really small and completely vindicates the belief that the Uchiha deserved to be wiped out. Any other reasons that I missed?
I don't think his existence as a villain being unlikely is anywhere near a good criticism. It's a bit contrived, but I could see the scenario working in a better work with a little better set up. I'll also say that you're supposed to see Madara as the ultimate corrupter of Obito. Also, everything is traced back to Madara, not Obito. (take that as you will)
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completely vindicates the belief that the Uchiha deserved to be wiped out.
That's less of a belief and more a fact in this series. If they'd just listened to Tobirama in the first place, none of this would have ever happened.