There's twenty minutes worth of new cuts. A preliminary breakdown from Julian is here. A few pictures can be found here. I like how the final battle has more cutaways to the other characters' reactions. It gives the thing a fuller feel. Now, if only that hideous CG wasn't so prevalent…
Dragonball Discussion
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I really wish Dragon Ball Kai was reanimated
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People keep saying they wish Kai was reanimated but… they fail to account for three things.
1)The animation quality from mid Freeza on, and especially by Cell, was already really high budget for a television anime, approaching the quality level they had on the movies. Lots of frames, and lots of color shadings and details per character. The very early Vegeta saga stuff looked iffy, but it really was a very high quality animation... mostly only hurt by the pacing. yeah, its a little dated... but the characters were on model, the action general good, and like I said, they threw a ton of money at the shading and colors.
2)People want it to be super amazing crazy quality like the 1 minute long video game openings, or Kai's opening itself. That is never, ever, ever going to happen. Those things look so good BECAUSE they're two minutes, money can be thrown at them. That level would never sustain itself for an entire tv episode production schedule... and certainly not for 100+ episodes. (Hunter x Hunter and FMA got the "redrawn" treatment only because they were both going to have massive ammounts of episodes apart from the previous versions.)
3)The people who would re-buy newly animated DBZ are the same people that are rebuying Kai anyway. There really is no financial incentive to do it from scratch.
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@RobbyBevard:
Piccollo's formal speech pattern was great, appropriate to the character… its a shame the translations got really lazy about it pretty fast.
I was tempted to think so, considering in my volume 3 (DB 20) onward it's not there…..then again, I think the other two volumes were printed earlier....
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@RobbyBevard:
People keep saying they wish Kai was reanimated but… they fail to account for three things.
1)The animation quality from mid Freeza on, and especially by Cell, was already really high budget for a television anime, approaching the quality level they had on the movies. Lots of frames, and lots of color shadings and details per character. The very early Vegeta saga stuff looked iffy, but it really was a very high quality animation... mostly only hurt by the pacing. yeah, its a little dated... but the characters were on model, the action general good, and like I said, they threw a ton of money at the shading and colors.
2)People want it to be super amazing crazy quality like the 1 minute long video game openings, or Kai's opening itself. That is never, ever, ever going to happen. Those things look so good BECAUSE they're two minutes, money can be thrown at them. That level would never sustain itself for an entire tv episode production schedule... and certainly not for 100+ episodes. (Hunter x Hunter and FMA got the "redrawn" treatment only because they were both going to have massive ammounts of episodes apart from the previous versions.)
3)The people who would re-buy newly animated DBZ are the same people that are rebuying Kai anyway. There really is no financial incentive to do it from scratch.
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A true remake would have a drastic decrease in the number of episodes thanks to the proper pacing since the manga is fast paced. At around 4 chapters per episode, which is perfectly doable since LOTS of chapters are fast paced fights, DBZ would be remade into more or less 80 episodes, probably even less.
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There's nothing stopping Toei or other studio from doing this remake in seasons, as in do a 25 episode season this year and, at the end of it, depending on results, they decide if they do the same next year, or if they do a hiatus and resume after some time, or if they drop the project. That way, they could do the entire remake in just 3 or 4 seasons while still retaining the ability of canceling the project at the end of a season if they come to the conclusion that its really not worthwhile to do a new season. The only thing stopping them from doing this is their greed and belief that they will make more money by marketing a cheaply edited DBZ than a proper remake.
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The remake wouldn't need to have the best quality of animation in the world. It just would need to have good and coherent quality, making the fights look awesome.
-Dragon Ball is still more famous than Hunter x Hunter and FMA and a fatter cash cow even nowadays, especially considering international markets. There's absolutely no reason for a studio to consider worthwhile to do a good quality remake of FMA of 20 something episodes so shortly after the original while another studio doesn't consider worthwhile doing a season of 20 something episodes remaking the first part of Dragon Ball Z and then deciding on remaking the next part or not after the first part ends.
- The notion that the fans will buy Kai just like they would buy a proper remake is incredibly wrong. When Kai was announced, there were LOTS of fans incredibly interested, the fan base was very exited to see DBZ remade. Then Kai appeared and everybody realized that it was just an cheaply edited DBZ with new audio that was inferior to the original and with added censorship. The incredible excitement pretty much died right there. Even the ones still interested, became way less interested. I, for example, was very interested in a remake of DBZ but I couldn't care less about Kai because its basically a joke. The only thing good about it is the more accurate american dub and that has nothing to do with Kai itself. I'm pretty certain that a proper remake would sell WAY more, without question, especially considering the international markets where DBZ is huge. Toei is simply wrong in thinking that they make more money in selling Kai instead of a proper remake.
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Perfectly said, sir.^^I still think some years down the road they will remake it from scratch. Even toei will not be dumb enough to leave the money behind, that it certainly will make.
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- A true remake would have a drastic decrease in the number of episodes thanks to the proper pacing since the manga is fast paced. At around 4 chapters per episode, which is perfectly doable since LOTS of chapters are fast paced fights, DBZ would be remade into more or less 80 episodes, probably even less.
2 or 3 episodes is a good pace, even with action scenes. 4 is kinda of insane and would start losing stuff. A reasonable pace that included all the manga material would be about 100 episodes.
- There's nothing stopping Toei or other studio from doing this remake in seasons, as in do a 25 episode season this year and, at the end of it, depending on results, they decide if they do the same next year, or if they do a hiatus and resume after some time, or if they drop the project. That way, they could do the entire remake in just 3 seasons while still retaining the ability of canceling the project at the end of a season if they come to the conclusion that its really not worthwhile to do a new season. The only thing stopping them from doing this is their greed and belief that they will make more money by marketing a cheaply edited DBZ than a proper remake.
That's… exactly what happened with Kai though? Buu saga is only coming out now, a couple years later, because sales in the States were good.
- The remake wouldn't need to have the best quality of animation in the world. It just would need to have good and coherent quality, making the fights look awesome.
If its not the best quality modern animation can provide, then what's the point? It is the best quality early 90's was capable of, it'd have to top that. ANd to be BETTER than the expensive old show… it'd have to be expensive again.
-Dragon Ball is still more famous than Hunter x Hunter and FMA and a fatter cash cow even nowadays, especially considering international markets.
Dragonball also has 500 episodes, 14 movies and a handful of ovas that covered the entirety of the manga, and those old episodes STILL sell just fine in every re-release they come up with. Those other series DIDN'T cover their entire stories in their first runs, there was a huge wealth of new material and demand to cover in new productions.
There's absolutely no reason for a studio to consider worthwhile to do a good quality remake of FMA of 20 something episodes so shortly after the original while another studio doesn't consider worthwhile doing a season of 20 something episodes remaking the first part of Dragon Ball Z and then deciding on remaking the next part or not after the first part ends.
Because once you START remaking Dragonball, everyone expects you to finish it. It looks bad if you can't sustain interest in one of the most popular shows of all time.
Besides, we got the Path to Power movie that basically redid the original arc anyway.
- The notion that the fans will buy Kai just like they would buy a proper remake is incredibly wrong. When Kai was announced, there were LOTS of fans incredibly interested, the fan base was very exited to see DBZ remade. Then Kai appeared and everybody realized that it was just an cheaply edited DBZ with new audio that was inferior to the original and with added censorship. The incredible excitement pretty much died right there. Even the ones still interested, became way less interested. I, for example, was very interested in a remake of DBZ but I couldn't care less about Kai because its basically a joke. The only thing good about it is the more accurate american dub and that has nothing to do with Kai itself. I'm pretty certain that a proper remake would sell WAY more, without question, especially considering the international markets where DBZ is huge. Toei is simply wrong in thinking that they make more money in selling Kai instead of a proper remake.
It's still selling just fine. To the point they are doing the Buu saga now due to demand from the people buying it and the television networks airing it.
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I still think some years down the road they will remake it from scratch. Even toei will not be dumb enough to leave the money behind, that it certainly will make.But it'd be still would be very expensive to reanimate every scene from scratch….
Plus, you gotta figure, a lot of the cast members are getting up there in years (Masako Nozawa is 77!), hell some have died in the franchise's ~30 year run.
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But it'd be still would be very expensive to reanimate every scene from scratch….
Plus, you gotta figure, a lot of the cast members are getting up there in years (Masako Nozawa is 77!), hell some have died in the franchise's ~30 year run.
Sure, but if they can remake fma, hunter x hunter, sailor moon, they surely will find the money to remake one of the biggest manga/anime property that ever existed. The new hxh anime will probably end up having more episodes, than a remake of dragonball would have in total.
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How many people here really want to see Toei reanimate Dragonball?
Anything less than better than the original would be unaccteptable. And I don't really see it with Toei.
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I still think some years down the road they will remake it from scratch. Even toei will not be dumb enough to leave the money behind, that it certainly will make.
Original work - 50,000 yen ($660)
Script - 200,000 yen ($2,640)
Episode Direction - 500,000 yen ($6,600)
Production - 2 million yen ($26,402)
Key Animation Supervision - 250,000 yen ($3,300)
Key Animation - 1.5 million yen ($19,801)
In-betweening - 1.1 million yen ($14,521)
Finishing - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Art (backgrounds) - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Photography - 700,000 yen ($9,240)
Sound - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Materials - 400,000 yen ($5,280)
Editing - 200,000 yen ($2,640)
Printing - 500,000 yen ($6,600)That's the breakdowns on a normal anime production. For Dragonball to be the high quality everyone wants that's better than the old anime was at it's peak, it would be far more expensive than that.
Now… paying an intern to come in and edit old footage down, and the voice actors to re-record their lines... or pay 120,000+$ per episode (And high animation quality would be a LOT more... an average Last Airbender episode cost half a million!) to make a new episode for roughly 100 episodes?
A complete from scratch remake would have to sell a LOT to justify that expense... but considering the old version has sold on tapes, dvds (multiple times,) is moving to blu ray, and now fans can choose between original and edited Kai to get? That its still selling like crazy and its actual preferable to have the extended 500 episode run for those fans? That some people (for some reason) like the filler and old pacing?
Which sounds more profitable to you?
Sure, but if they can remake fma, hunter x hunter, sailor moon,
Those were NEVER adapted from the manga originally. FMA's first series veered wildly away from the manga, HxH had nearly half of its series missing from its biggest arc, and Sailor Moon's old anime only vaugley followed the manga. There's a demand for remakes on those because the original material was never animated the first time.
Dragonball followed the manga storyboards extremely closely… plus filler. There's nothing new to show there, no missing arc that fans must see animated for the first time.
Why would they put the time and resources into making it again when the original still sells... and now they can just make a single movie once every two or three years?
The new hxh anime will probably end up having more episodes, than a remake of dragonball would have in total.
And half of the HxH anime is BRAND NEW, never before animated.
If the old dragonball anime had for some reason stopped at Frieza and never got around to doing Cell or Buu, yes, there'd be every reason for a new adaptation.
And a proper remake would preferably also include the young Goku story, not just the post Raditz stuff. If Kai, doign just Raditz-Cell can barely fit into 100 episodes… doing the whole thing would take significantly longer.
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I'm anoyed about the Zphile people, completely ignoring about a third of the plot because stupid reasons.
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@RobbyBevard:
Original work - 50,000 yen ($660)
Script - 200,000 yen ($2,640)
Episode Direction - 500,000 yen ($6,600)
Production - 2 million yen ($26,402)
Key Animation Supervision - 250,000 yen ($3,300)
Key Animation - 1.5 million yen ($19,801)
In-betweening - 1.1 million yen ($14,521)
Finishing - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Art (backgrounds) - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Photography - 700,000 yen ($9,240)
Sound - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Materials - 400,000 yen ($5,280)
Editing - 200,000 yen ($2,640)
Printing - 500,000 yen ($6,600)That's the breakdowns on a normal anime production. For Dragonball to be the high quality everyone wants that's better than the old anime was at it's peak, it would be far more expensive than that.
Now… paying an intern to come in and edit old footage down, and the voice actors to re-record their lines... or pay 120,000+$ per episode (And high animation quality would be a LOT more... an average Last Airbender episode cost half a million!) to make a new episode for roughly 100 episodes?
A complete from scratch remake would have to sell a LOT to justify that expense... but considering the old version has sold on tapes, dvds (multiple times,) is moving to blu ray, and now fans can choose between original and edited Kai to get? That its still selling like crazy and its actual preferable to have the extended 500 episode run for those fans? That some people (for some reason) like the filler and old pacing?
Eh, Avatar: The Last Airbender isn't a good comparison because American studios just throw a massive amount of in-betweens at their shows without using their resources correctly. Dragon Ball had about 3,500 drawings an episode while American cartoons tend to have about 10,000, yet Dragon Ball had key animators and episode directors that knew how to use those drawings more effectively through effective timing (Seigasha episodes were always the best at this thanks to the Kanada Yoshinori styles they employed). The talent of the staff of these works makes money go a long way. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann was made on $180,000-200,000 an episode and Studio Trigger made Little Witch Academia in six months on $400,000 while using the production as a training lesson for young animators (seventeen thousand drawings spread across twenty-six minutes).
Assuming a remake from scratch didn't follow the comic panel-by-panel, Dragon Ball chapters #195-519 could be written into ninety-five episodes by my count (chapters #1-194 could fit in sixty-five episodes). That's less episodes than the 2011 Hunter x Hunter cartoon which receives talented animators and directors on a much more frequent occasion than anything Toei Animation is currently producing. If each episode has a budget of $150,000 that would require a ninety-five episode series to cost $14,250,000. Cannibalize every few episodes so that another episode with talented key animators could have more drawings and Toei could probably produce something as good as Naruto Shippuuden with its regular Yamashita Hiroyuki episodes. Hold off on premiering the series until three dozen episodes are in the can or just outright follow the late-night pattern and only air one or two cours at a time so that talented key animators and directors can work on the series. Of course, outside of Kyousougiga, Toei Animation has refused to properly schedule a series for years, but it isn't entirely possible if Toei Animation would just handle their biggest property with a little care. Hell, not even Battle of Gods was handled with care outside of the script.
Dragon Ball Kai was a massive failure in Japan likely because Fuji TV and Toei Animation set it up to be. It had no value to even the pre-established fans. It's cheap trash for the lowest common denominator, just like almost every other series they've produced in the last decade (barring Kyousougiga and a few of the PreCure series).
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We can't forget that Toei also spent a lot of money on "Battle of Gods" as well.
I think they're spending their money wisely. The reason Kai even exists in the first place is because of how popular the series is. Toei could've just as easily made a couple hour-and-a-half long specials reanimating the arcs like they've been doing with One Piece, but instead decided to give us the entire series all over again, remastered, in HD. Plus, they've chosen to spend their money on NEW Dragon Ball material (BoG), which is something fans have been wanting since, like, forever. They're also smart enough to understand that even though Kai is a cheap remastered version of the original, they can and will make a lot of money off of it. They aren't going to remake what they can still bank off of for another decade.
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Kai exists as a cheap way to make new fans without exhausting their resources and while maintaining the 9AM Sunday slot on Fuji TV. Toei has more than a half dozen weekly animated series in production at any one time and Dragon Ball Kai only has two members on its production committee judging by the credits: Fuji TV and Toei Animation. I think it was pretty clear Toei had little respect for the franchise even after the headache that Kai turned into when Hosoda Masahiro was hired to direct Battle of Gods. Arifumi Zako's directing of the 2013 Toriko movie made a much better use of the key animators he had on hand.
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@RobbyBevard:
People keep saying they wish Kai was reanimated but… they fail to account for three things.
1)The animation quality from mid Freeza on, and especially by Cell, was already really high budget for a television anime, approaching the quality level they had on the movies. Lots of frames, and lots of color shadings and details per character. The very early Vegeta saga stuff looked iffy, but it really was a very high quality animation... mostly only hurt by the pacing. yeah, its a little dated... but the characters were on model, the action general good, and like I said, they threw a ton of money at the shading and colors.
2)People want it to be super amazing crazy quality like the 1 minute long video game openings, or Kai's opening itself. That is never, ever, ever going to happen. Those things look so good BECAUSE they're two minutes, money can be thrown at them. That level would never sustain itself for an entire tv episode production schedule... and certainly not for 100+ episodes. (Hunter x Hunter and FMA got the "redrawn" treatment only because they were both going to have massive ammounts of episodes apart from the previous versions.)
3)The people who would re-buy newly animated DBZ are the same people that are rebuying Kai anyway. There really is no financial incentive to do it from scratch.
I said I wish. I know it's never gonna happen, but a guy can dream, can't he?
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@RobbyBevard:
2 or 3 episodes is a good pace, even with action scenes. 4 is kinda of insane and would start losing stuff. A reasonable pace that included all the manga material would be about 100 episodes.
4 chapters per episode is merely an indication. Even at 3 episodes average, 4 seasons of 25 episodes would cover all of DBZ. But I'm confident that it could be fewer than that and closer to the 80 mark. I have the manga and its full of very fast paced action, the difference in pacing compared to the original anime is almost like night and day.
That's… exactly what happened with Kai though? Buu saga is only coming out now, a couple years later, because sales in the States were good.
Not really. Kai's Buu saga was already pretty much all done when they stopped airing (much thanks to Kai's music scandal). That's not what I talking about at all. But actually that just ends up making my point even more valid because it demonstrates that they obviously can do stuff like that, interrupt a release and then continue it later if they want. So, what is exactly the reason for not doing a real remake instead of Kai besides blind greed and lack of vision?
If its not the best quality modern animation can provide, then what's the point? It is the best quality early 90's was capable of, it'd have to top that. ANd to be BETTER than the expensive old show… it'd have to be expensive again.
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The pacing of the original anime makes it almost unwatchable for someone who read the manga.
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Instead of being an edited DBZ, like Kai is, it would actually be something new, while still being the same story (AKA an actual remake), which would greatly please fans of the franchise as long as it was made with care and quality and that could perhaps replace the original anime as a more definite, faithful and better adaptation of the original manga in the fans' eyes.
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A consistent good quality of animation would pretty much make the remake better than DBZ from the start since DBZ that had MANY ups and downs regarding its animation quality.
Dragonball also has 500 episodes, 14 movies and a handful of ovas that covered the entirety of the manga, and those old episodes STILL sell just fine in every re-release they come up with. Those other series DIDN'T cover their entire stories in their first runs, there was a huge wealth of new material and demand to cover in new productions.
Dragon Ball ended 20 years ago but it still has a very strong and active fanbase that salivates for anything new regarding Dragon Ball. Even without any more manga to cover, fans worldwide would absolutely eat up something like a proper remake, but not really an half-assed joke like Kai that doesn't fool anyone in its attemp to ressemble a remake. FMA for example had more manga to cover but had the disadvantages of being released shortly after the original anime and its fanbase not having nowhere near the potential that Dragon Ball's fanbase has worldwide. Heck, even Kai, a joke as it is, has been released in various countries and is airing in various countries purely due to the enormous presence and pull of the fans. A real remake would do exponentially better. So, if in those conditions there are studios that think its worthwhile to do a good quality remake of FMA, I fail to see why they would think it wouldn't be worthwhile for Dragon Ball Z, especially in a seasonal format like I suggested.
Because once you START remaking Dragonball, everyone expects you to finish it. It looks bad if you can't sustain interest in one of the most popular shows of all time.
Besides, we got the Path to Power movie that basically redid the original arc anyway.
It looks worse than releasing a joke like Kai? I doubt it. People might not like it, but if something is canceled because its not doing so well, people understand it. But releasing a joke instead of a good product? That, they don't understand.
And Path of Power is a way better remake of early Dragon Ball than any edit of the early episodes of Dragon Ball would be, which only fuels what I've been saying.
It's still selling just fine. To the point they are doing the Buu saga now due to demand from the people buying it and the television networks airing it.
Its selling purely thanks to the incredible pull of DB's massive fan base who checks out anything new regarding Dragon Ball. But a proper remake? That wouldn't just sell, that would explode. Think about it. Kai is a joke and everybody can see that, and yet it still sells purely thanks to how massive DB is. Now imagine if it wasn't a joke. If it was good. If it was actually a real remake. Yeah, that's what Toei doesn't get.
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What part of "brand new is expensive and will still only sell so much" versus "cheap old edit sells anyway on multiple formats"? They still make plenty of money of the old product. They don't need to invest in new.
And again. With the whole manga adapted before, and faithfully, there really isn't a heavy demand for new stuff… despite what the hardcore fans think.
People on this forum bitch about the lackluster quality of the OP anime as well, but it still does very well for them regardless of quality.
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@RobbyBevard:
Original work - 50,000 yen ($660)
Script - 200,000 yen ($2,640)
Episode Direction - 500,000 yen ($6,600)
Production - 2 million yen ($26,402)
Key Animation Supervision - 250,000 yen ($3,300)
Key Animation - 1.5 million yen ($19,801)
In-betweening - 1.1 million yen ($14,521)
Finishing - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Art (backgrounds) - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Photography - 700,000 yen ($9,240)
Sound - 1.2 million yen ($15,841)
Materials - 400,000 yen ($5,280)
Editing - 200,000 yen ($2,640)
Printing - 500,000 yen ($6,600)That's the breakdowns on a normal anime production. For Dragonball to be the high quality everyone wants that's better than the old anime was at it's peak, it would be far more expensive than that.
Now… paying an intern to come in and edit old footage down, and the voice actors to re-record their lines... or pay 120,000+$ per episode (And high animation quality would be a LOT more... an average Last Airbender episode cost half a million!) to make a new episode for roughly 100 episodes?
A complete from scratch remake would have to sell a LOT to justify that expense... but considering the old version has sold on tapes, dvds (multiple times,) is moving to blu ray, and now fans can choose between original and edited Kai to get? That its still selling like crazy and its actual preferable to have the extended 500 episode run for those fans? That some people (for some reason) like the filler and old pacing?
Which sounds more profitable to you?
That's Toei's lack of vision in a nutshell. A proper DBZ remake would cost more than Kai to make but it would also sell exponentially more than whatever Kai sells. There's no question that the fan's interest would be exponentially greater, and this is without even mentioning that Dragon Ball is a monster internationally compared to other animes, meaning that while other studios have to worry mainly about making their money domestically, Dragon Ball can pull massive amounts of profit from the international markets since its the anime with the greatest international pull, great enough for the latest movie (battle of gods) to be big enough to be on theaters on various countries.
Add to that that if they actually did it in seasons, they would have safeguards of investment, allowing them to cancel the project or making it go on hiatus for the next seasons if their return wasn't that good at that moment.
But, of course, instead of having that vision and actually caring a little about the quality of their products, they just look at the safest way possible to milk the franchise and maximize their money with the less possible investment. Its kind of sad and ironic, really, because a company that wasn't as big as Toei and that didn't have such big cash cow franchises like Toei has would probably try to invest in quality so that their products would stand out in that regard, making them grow in popularity, prestige, name and market presence.
@RobbyBevard:
What part of "brand new is expensive and will still only sell so much" versus "cheap old edit sells anyway on multiple formats"? They still make plenty of money of the old product. They don't need to invest in new.
And again. With the whole manga adapted before, and faithfully, there really isn't a heavy demand for new stuff… despite what the hardcore fans think.
People on this forum bitch about the lackluster quality of the OP anime as well, but it still does very well for them regardless of quality.
In other words, since they don't really need to invest in quality to gain popularity, name, prestige and market presence like a smaller company might need to, and since they have big cash cows, they end up not caring much about adding quality to their products, and just care about making more money of fewer investments in sure things like Dragon Ball? Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been saying. However, that situation to me is disgusting. When a company no longer works in some degree for the fans, its not really acceptable in my view. Hence, my complete disgust for Kai.
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That's Toei's lack of vision in a nutshell. A proper DBZ remake would cost more than Kai to make but it would also sell exponentially more than whatever Kai sells.
No. It wouldn't. You'd get a few more hardcore fans going for it, and some new ones… but overall it would probably be about the same.
It WOULD have to sell "exponentially" more to make the difference. Right now they pay the editing, voice actors, directors, and some mild staff. Maybe 5,000 or 10,000 per episode. If you want to throw new, high quality animation onto it, and thus up the budget to 150,000-200,000 per episode... (and more than that to super good animation) 20x over... suddenly you have to sell, literally, 20x as much to make a profit.
Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts believe that new animation alone would sell the same product again (with the same story, and with pacing only a little better than what Kai is doing) to the people that have already bought it before... in some cases multiple times... 100x over what Kai is selling? Including network syndication and other avenues? Really? Who exactly is the target audience? People that have never bought the series before? People that have bought it 3 times already? WHo exactly is this mysterious massive fanbase willign to shill out massive ammounts to buy the whole series again, at top high not-marked-down prices? (Because we'd be back to charging 30 dollars for 3 episodes, instead of 30 dollars a season)
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Dragon Ball Kai is already sold for $30 for three episodes, though, where it sold like trash because it had no value.
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@Vegard:
due to how they apparently make him look like a racist stereotype,
Let's not mince words, even though completely unintended, they make him look exactly like racist imagery.
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@RobbyBevard:
No. It wouldn't. You'd get a few more hardcore fans going for it, and some new ones… but overall it would probably be about the same.
It WOULD have to sell "exponentially" more to make the difference. Right now they pay the editing, voice actors, directors, and some mild staff. Maybe 5,000 or 10,000 per episode. If you want to throw new, high quality animation onto it, and thus up the budget to 150,000-200,000 per episode... (and more than that to super good animation) 20x over... suddenly you have to sell, literally, 20x as much to make a profit.
Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts believe that new animation alone would sell the same product again (with the same story, and with pacing only a little better than what Kai is doing) to the people that have already bought it before... in some cases multiple times... 100x over what Kai is selling? Including network syndication and other avenues? Really? Who exactly is the target audience? People that have never bought the series before? People that have bought it 3 times already? WHo exactly is this mysterious massive fanbase willign to shill out massive ammounts to buy the whole series again, at top high not-marked-down prices? (Because we'd be back to charging 30 dollars for 3 episodes, instead of 30 dollars a season)
See, that's exactly the problem… They simply aren't willing to risk not gaining AS MUCH money as with this joke of a release that is Kai. You see, there's basically no way that a proper remake wouldn't be huge and make them serious money due to all the interest that still exists in the franchise worldwide (like I pointed out) and to the proven universal appeal of the story and characters for new fans, even when presented with a joke like Kai. Even nowadays Dragon Ball is basically their second biggest franchise in terms of sales, despite the fact that it ended 20 years ago as we can see here:
But they look at the initial investment of a proper remake, like you just did, and they just think that they will end up making more money if they just do a cheap edit of DBZ, do a new audio, market it as remake and sell it.
In other words, they know that there is a market for a remake of Dragon Ball, but in order to increase profits, instead of an actual remake, they just prefer to do a different cut of DBZ, a director's cut of DBZ if you will, with added effects, new audio and scene rearrangement (that is basically just the elimination of scenes in a attempt to remove filler and improve pacing). That's what's disgusting. There's no concern about adding quality for the fans, there's no real concern with a standard. There's only a single concern: making even more money by cheapening the product sold, even though they already make a ton of money out of the franchise.
And yes, I do believe a proper remake would sell enough to compensate the initial investment. There are whole countries out there, like mine, where anime is equal to Dragon Ball and where everyone who even has a remote interest in Dragon Ball would completely eat up a proper remake, but they won't eat up an edited version of DBZ. You can not underestimate how obvious it is that Kai IS DBZ in disguise, no matter how they tried to hide it and sell as something else. You can not underestimate just how much people interested in a proper remake are put off by this. And all this without mentioning that a proper remake would attract new fans much more easily than Kai which looks as dated as DBZ. So, a proper remake would be much more attractive to old fans as well as new.
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Your basing your opinion on fanboy feeling. They based theirs on actual trends and sales data.
There's a vast difference between the two.
Just because you "know" a lot of people would buy it… doesn't mean that many actually would.
(Data that says the old version sells juuuuust fine, at that.)
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@RobbyBevard:
Your basing your opinion on fanboy feeling. They based theirs on actual trends and sales data.
There's a vast difference between the two.
Just because you "know" a lot of people would buy it… doesn't mean that many actually would.
You completely missed my point…
My opinion, in short:
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Toei knows there is a market for a remake of Dragon Ball, but they believe they will make MORE money selling a cheap edit of it and labeling it as a remake (essentially trying to fool everyone) than actually doing a remake.
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In my opinion, this practice is disgusting because, not only shows that they don't care about adding quality to their products, it also shows they don't really care about the fans of their products, only caring about making more and more money, not hesitating to cheapen their products.
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Is Toei right in believing they will make more money this way instead of investing in quality and in a proper remake? They might be, but I personally doubt it due to everything I stated.
So, how does this opinion make me a fanboy? By criticizing a company that is selling an half-assed product and marketing it as something that its not because it only cares about making more profits instead of also caring a little about the quality of their products and the satisfaction of the fans of their products, am I being a fanboy?
If I criticized a videogame company for example because they obviously cut corners with their most recent product in order to have more profits and so they sacrificed quality, would I also be a fanboy...?
Am I being a fanboy for believing that a company should invest in quality and that quality translates to added interest and added profits, perhaps more than enough to compensate said investment?
Jeez... You know, I didn't offend you or called you anything. I've expressed my opinion on this practice by Toei logically. Anyone would understand perfectly well what I'm saying, and most wouldn't feel the need to call me a fanboy because of it even if they didn't agree.
@RobbyBevard:
(Data that says the old version sells juuuuust fine, at that.)
Yeah, I never said Kai doesn't sell, or that the original anime doesn't sell, ok? I merely said that a proper remake would sell even more and that I don't like Toei pursuing the route of cheaping their products to increase profits and not really caring much about quality because that's a disgusting pratice in my opinion.
Like I said, I have my doubts that route is actually better for them in terms of profits instead or pursuing quality, but that wasn't even my main point.
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- Toei knows there is a market for a remake of Dragon Ball, but they believe they will make MORE money selling a cheap edit of it and labeling it as a remake (essentially trying to fool everyone) than actually doing a remake.
And they are correct in their belief.
You don't seem to grasp that companies will cut as many corners as legally possible to churn a profit, especially Toei. If that shocks you, just watch the One Piece anime.
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Sure people were excited on the internet, but is that representative of the entire population or simply a vocal minority? And I don't really recall them ever saying it was going to be a remake. Sure, a revision or an update as per what kai means and they more or less did that by fixing up some pacing issues early on until they hit the Freeza arc and decided to screw it, but I don't ever remember anything about a remake phrasing other than maybe a game of fan telephone.
I honestly think that it was a lousy move and a lazy move to be sure that perhaps shouldn't have happened, but besides being the safer option, it almost certainly is the option that will result in the most profit compared to remaking the whole series at this point in time, so yes, of course Toei's going to opt for that option.
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Toei does less than bare-minimum for what's currently one of or the most popular manga out there right now.
Clearly their going to spend $50,000 an episode for the production of an old series that's already been animated
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And yet it moves.
No, seriously. The fact that they're doing the Buu saga means the money's moving to what they want, at the very least in the US.
As for being a fanboy, you're welcome to dole out any criticisms you have about a product pertaining to its quality taking into consideration the production timeline and setup, but to believe that a remake would sell more because the product is still currently popular even when it's old is what most would consider wishful thinking at best. Hell, the fact that it's still selling and it's old I would say is more of a contraindication of doing a remake if anything.
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@Cyan:
And they are correct in their belief.
You don't seem to grasp that companies will cut as many corners as legally possible to churn a profit, especially Toei. If that shocks you, just watch the One Piece anime.
No, I fully grasp that many companies do stuff like this often. But when they go beyond what I consider acceptable like Toei with Kai? Not only do I lose all interest in the product and think worse of their overall quality as a company, I also criticize them, just like I did in this topic. Why is such a position weird? Is not being a mindless consumer/fan/client so weird? Because that's all that I'm doing.
And like I said, I have my doubts that a proper remake wouldn't compensate the initial investment in additional earnings, I believe that Toei is just more interested in playing it safe by cheapening their products then investing in quality, but, like I also said, that wasn't even my main point and its just my opinion.
@Purple:
As for being a fanboy, you're welcome to dole out any criticisms you have about a product pertaining to its quality taking into consideration the production timeline and setup, but to believe that a remake would sell more because the product is still currently popular even when it's old is what most would consider wishful thinking at best. Hell, the fact that it's still selling and it's old I would say is more of a contraindication of doing a remake if anything.
Actually, the fact that an half-assed product (that is almost identical to a previous product that already exists) sells as much as it does, in my opinion, is a indication that a new and good quality product in place of that product would sell much more.
Since when believing that a higher quality product will sell more than a half-assed product is a fanboy opinion…? I believe that's pretty much a given for any person.
The real question is whether it would compensate the initial investment as much as Kai does but, like I said, a company that actually cared about the quality of their final products besides also caring about money wouldn't really consider an option like Kai (which, frankly, is a release unlike any I've ever seen before and a bad precedent for the future) instead of a proper remake, and that's basically what I'm criticizing.
Whether it would actually compensate or not is beside the main point I was making but, regarding that, I stated that I believed that it would compensate even though that's obviously just my opinion based on how much more I think it would sell. I never claimed it to be something other than just my opinion so I fail to see how expressing my opinion on that particular point without claiming it to be anything more than my opinion makes me a fanboy... Honestly, I think that just makes me a person with a opinion on the subject. For me to be a fanboy I think I would have to be unwilling to accept other perspectives and be completely certain that my opinion is the absolute truth. But I never did that, I just expressed my view and why I think like that. Just because people happen to disagree with my view, that doesn't make me automatically a fanboy, ok?
@Purple:
Sure people were excited on the internet, but is that representative of the entire population or simply a vocal minority? And I don't really recall them ever saying it was going to be a remake. Sure, a revision or an update as per what kai means and they more or less did that by fixing up some pacing issues early on until they hit the Freeza arc and decided to screw it, but I don't ever remember anything about a remake phrasing other than maybe a game of fan telephone.
As far as I could tell, everyone interested in DB was excited when they were under the impression that it would be a remake early on, not just a few fans over the internet, which gave way to disappointment when it was released.
And Toei sells it as a brand new thing, without ever referring it as DBZ, a different edition of DBZ, a different cut of DBZ or anything of the sort. They sell it as DB Kai, a brand new thing, which gave way to the impression that it would be a remake of the anime and not just an edited DBZ.
Even Funimation felt the need to rename it as DBZ Kai, which is WAY less misleading, and Funimation milks the DB franchise extensively.
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No, I fully grasp that many companies do stuff like this often. But when they go beyond what I consider acceptable like Toei with Kai? Not only do I lose all interest in the product and think worse of their overall quality as a company, I also criticize them, just like I did in this topic. Why is such a position weird? Is not being a mindless consumer/fan/client so weird? Because that's all that I'm doing.
And like I said, I have my doubts that a proper remake wouldn't compensate the initial investment in additional earnings, I believe that Toei is just more interested in playing it safe by cheapening their products then investing in quality, but, like I also said, that wasn't even my main point and its just my opinion.
It really isn't weird, but you keep insisting that it's the "right" move for Toei to make. I don't think anyone here is in disagreement with you that Kai kinda sucks ass, but when making the argument that Toei should have made a full remake from scratch when the product has sold fine and is selling fine and will cause a loss of interest really is a difficult position to defend, especially when the product is Dragonball of all things.
Actually, the fact that an half-assed product (that is almost identical to a previous product that already exists) sells as much as it does, in my opinion, is a indication that a new and good quality product in place of that product would sell much more.
Since when believing that a higher quality product will sell more than a half-assed product is a fanboy opinion…? I believe that's pretty much a given for any person.
The real question is whether it would compensate the initial investment as much as Kai does but, like I said, a company that actually cared about the quality of their final products besides also caring about money wouldn't really consider an option like Kai (which, frankly, is a release unlike any I've ever seen before and a bad precedent for the future) instead of a proper remake, and that's basically what I'm criticizing.
Whether it would actually compensate or not is beside the main point I was making but, regarding that, I stated that I believed that it would compensate even though that's obviously just my opinion based on how much more I think it would sell. I never claimed it to be something other than just my opinion so I fail to see how expressing my opinion on that particular point without claiming it to be anything more than my opinion makes me a fanboy... Honestly, I think that just makes me a person with a opinion on the subject. For me to be a fanboy I think I would have to be unwilling to accept other perspectives and be completely certain that my opinion is the absolute truth. But I never did that, I just expressed my view and why I think like that. Just because people happen to disagree with my view, that doesn't make me automatically a fanboy, ok?
You would think that, in your viewpoint of the consumer, that a higher quality product always tends towards higher profit margins, but that isn't necessarily the case. When managing the resources allotted to them, increasing the cost of production by a very considerable margin for a meagre income increase really is unattractrive. To compensate for that very broad increase in necessary resources, you would need a likewise very considerable increase in viewership and purchasing.
And no, believing in a higher quality product does not make you a fanboy and that wasn't my point. Like I said, you're free to hand out your criticisms about a product however you please. But insisting that it's in the company's best interests to remake the series when the current model sells fine? Then you're viewing thing with fanboy goggles.
As far as I could tell, everyone interested in DB was excited when they were under the impression that it would be a remake early on, not just a few fans over the internet, which gave way to disappointment when it was released.
And Toei sells it as a brand new thing, without ever referring it as DBZ, a different edition of DBZ, a different cut of DBZ or anything of the sort. They sell it as DB Kai, a brand new thing, which gave way to the impression that it would be a remake of the anime and not just an edited DBZ.
Even Funimation felt the need to rename it as DBZ Kai, which is WAY less misleading, and Funimation milks the DB franchise extensively.
Funimation didn't name it DBZ Kai because it's less misleading. They need that so that their target audience in the US will actually pick up interest. Everyone knows that Dragonball is over, and Funi is well aware of that, and they're not going to say it's a remake. They labelled it to capitalize on the fact that, yes, DBZ is still something that the US is fond of. Not Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z. It's the name association, and it's a pretty strong association of an anime series that is the defining anime series in the states, pretty much ingrained into our view of anime even more so than in Japan. If anything, that view is why Kai continued to do the Buu saga in the US more than anything else before it got a Japanese release.
And why would Toei need to sell it as DBZ Kai? The brand has always been Dragon Ball in Japan. Sure it's a revision of the Z part, but anyone's able to figure that out when you see adult Goku and his son Gohan flying around. The fact that it has the word Kai for the Japanese already implies that it's a revision instead of another "series" like Z or GT. It's also a big reason why I ask if it's more than just a vocal minority on the mainly American speaking internet unless you frequent places like 2ch to get a better sense of the Japanese demographic and their assumptions as to the product.
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Buu saga preview:
And two articles: http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_kai/topics/
The first one just seems to be a cast gathering of sorts, and the second one says something about a better remastering of the series than before.
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what's with that really good looking scene of goku vs majin vegeta? Compared to everything else it appears differently animated
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It's probably from the new theme song.
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^ It is. The music playing in the background is the new Opening's instrumental as well.
Fun fact: The new Opening, "Kuu-Zen-Zetsu-Go", was written by the same guy who wrote "Cha-La-Head-Cha-La" and "We Gotta Power".
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@Galaxy:
Buu saga preview:
screw it, I'm hyped. I love how the narrator stretched out Goku's name when naming all the main players of the arc.
also, I dunno if it was discussed here….
[hide]…but according to the Kanzenshuu podcast, Bin Shimada will replace Jouji Yanami as the voice of Badidi and Shino Kakinuma will replace Yuko Minaguchi as the voice of Videl:
[/hide]
^ It is. The music playing in the background is the new Opening's instrumental as well.
Fun fact: The new Opening, "Kuu-Zen-Zetsu-Go", was written by the same guy who wrote "Cha-La-Head-Cha-La" and "We Gotta Power".
Hironobu Kageyama?
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No, the new Opening is written by 森 雪之丞 Mori Yukinojou.
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@Yuugi's:
No, the new Opening is written by 森 雪之丞 Mori Yukinojou.
…so Kageyama didn't write Cha La Head Cha La, he just performed it?
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…so Kageyama didn't write Cha La Head Cha La, he just performed it?
Yessir. You can check the staff credits for pretty much every Dragon Ball song at the Kanzenshuu Lyrics Guide.
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@Yuugi's:
Yessir. You can check the staff credits for pretty much ever Dragon Ball song at the Kanzenshuu Lyrics Guide.
Ah, thanks a ton.
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This post is deleted!
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Update: This video recounting the events of the Kai panel has (a little bit of) the new Opening playing in the background:
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Second preview aired after Toriko's final episode:
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]I get the sneaking suspicion the Opening is merely going to be weak key animators. Gah, Yamamuro, if you can't find anyone with talent just do the entire Opening yourself!
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I watched the extended TV edition of "Battle of Gods" last night, and I gotta say I enjoyed it much more than the theatrical version. The new scenes were very much appreciated, and they not only helped the story to flow better, but they also let some of the other characters have moments to shine as well.
There was also a brief introduction reanimating all of the major fights of the series, which was also a nice touch. So I guess if we were going to get the series reanimated (like we've been discussing), it might look something like this.
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In terms of using Yamamuro Tadayoshi's character designs, sure, but I suspect the actual scenes would have both had better key animators and a few more drawings allotted.
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Clearly toei is cheap, because even the battle of gods movie has nowhere near the quality a really high budget theatrical movie. But that is pretty much with all the shonen movies, besides a couple exceptions.
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I watched the extended TV edition of "Battle of Gods" last night, and I gotta say I enjoyed it much more than the theatrical version. The new scenes were very much appreciated, and they not only helped the story to flow better, but they also let some of the other characters have moments to shine as well.
There was also a brief introduction reanimating all of the major fights of the series, which was also a nice touch. So I guess if we were going to get the series reanimated (like we've been discussing), it might look something like this.
Those reanimated scenes look blander than ducks shit. No punch, no strenght, no "oomph", no artistic value, nothing.
If a remake (that's never going to be made, btw) has to be anything like that, just leave it the way it is now. The original anime has constant ups and downs in the animation, and some episodes looked like straight horse diarrhea, but the important moments were given huge budgets and had enough punch in them to make them memorable.
The kame hame ha battle between Gohan and Cell in this video looked laughable at best.
Also, holy shit these new "designs" look bland. I guess it's the same style the Kai openings use, but I find it ugly as sin.
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I agree with what you all are saying. I never said the animation looked superb or anything, just that this would probably be the kind of approach they would take towards something of that extent. It was never meant to be taken so seriously, I probably should have made that more clear.
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I agree with what you all are saying. I never said the animation looked superb or anything, just that this would probably be the kind of approach they would take towards something of that extent. It was never meant to be taken so seriously, I probably should have made that more clear.
Oh, but I wasn't refering to what you said, but the video itself and its animation!
If anything, sorry if what I said sounded offensive or something, but I wasn't directing any of that towards you, of course.