I don't understand your question. When I brought up ancestry I was talking about genetic ancestry. What does this have to do with the difference between ethnicity and race?
"But ethnicity is as steeped in culture and tradition as it is in ancestry"
I don't understand your question. When I brought up ancestry I was talking about genetic ancestry. What does this have to do with the difference between ethnicity and race?
"But ethnicity is as steeped in culture and tradition as it is in ancestry"
@Monkey:
Yes, that's correct.
Of course ethnicity gets really mushed and blurred (social science as it is), especially in a country like the US. The melting pot thing. And the mixed ethnic origin thing etc.
This is pretty much how I feel about it.
It's such a weak term when attempting to apply it as a single, all encompassing measure of cultural identification. Like for instance, there's absolutely no doubt that I'm influenced by my Nicaraguan heritage but there's also no doubt that I'm influenced by the heritage of Louisiana, the South and the United States at large. So much so in fact, that you couldn't just classify me underneath one category and call it a day. You would be forced to gradually become more and more specific for the sake of accuracy.
I can understand, to some degree, its application as a term in studying social patterns. But with the onset of globalization, the lines blur more and more with each passing year.
@Panda:
Among a plethora of other things in his results was the claim that, on his mother's side, he was either Basque, Northern Scandinavian, or both, which happens to be precisely correct.
I think you just explained for yourself why race is a social construct. The test didn't say that he was white, it said that he was either Basque or Northern Scandinavian. Neither of which are easily perceived in the social context, as opposed to whiteness.
In fact, I don't even actually know if he's white from the information I was given, I can only assume.
@Panda:
There actually is a hard scientific aspect to race, though, at least in the sense of race of the location of one's ancestral heritage;
That's not race though. Genetics can point to places and populations of origin? Yes, of course. But such things are infinitely more complex and specific than any broad idea of "brown people", "people with squinty eyes" etc.
so call that what term you wish if you feel 'race' isn't appropriate.
I think it's just called genetics lol. Or population genetics.
Point being, though, it is in fact possible to figure out, to some extent or other, a person's race in that sense by analyzing their genetics. As a first-paw example, my brother recently paid for one of these DNA testing things that have started to become popular. Among a plethora of other things in his results was the claim that, on his mother's side, he was either Basque, Northern Scandinavian, or both, which happens to be precisely correct.
"Northern Scandinavian"…that's uh...exactly what I mean lol.
We have a vague yet specific geographic population identified through genetics.
But let's say the Northern Scandinavian looked like this?
Racially? That dude is going to maybe be treated like an Asian. Or whatever you'd want to call it. And indeed he was, cast as Chinese people in movies.
See the difference I'm getting at?
@Monkey:
There have definitely not been centuries of debate on ethnicity.
And the centuries of debate on racism were largely godawful racist until even just 50 years ago. And horribly un-scholarly by any modern considerations.
Sociological circles are actually very new things by and large.
And these debates are HAD by posing questions to narrow things down.
Like how ethnicity can be physical when we have Croats and Serbs as separate groups? That's not something to ignore. And it's not "folksy common sense" as you imply with the vagina comment.
Your definition of ethnicity does not actually reflect how culture spreads and retreats over groups of people. It doesn't…well...work in reality.And yes, I will ignore wikipedia. I don't know why you would find that shocking.
What exactly is my definition of ethnicity? I don't recall giving one. I agree with you about it being cultural. I was disagreeing about race being something clearly separable from that. But you refuse to really even consider the discussions as to why. I'm sorry you're too much of a lazy, generalizing baby to recognize when a discussion can be insightful and well-sourced even though it's on Wikipedia. I hope you found your retort satisfactorily condescending and elitist. There's a reason you rub so many people the wrong way; you're an arrogant prick at times and as such I don't feel inclined to continue this discussion.
So is northern scandinavian meant to be up in sami country?
I think you just explained for yourself why race is a social construct. The test didn't say that he was white, it said that he was either Basque or Northern Scandinavian. Neither of which are easily perceived in the social context, as opposed to whiteness.
In fact, I don't even actually know if he's white from the information I was given, I can only assume.
I certainly never intended to claim that race isn't a social construct, as well. If I did that, I would be doing the exact same thing I was accusing Monk of, in the other direction. My point was simply that it's a complex issue, with both aspects contributing to it. Trying to claim that the concept of 'race', however one is choosing to define it at the particular moment, is completely unrelated to the concept of genetic ancestry simply seems willfully simple minded.
@wolfwoof:
So is northern scandinavian meant to be up in sami country?
I couldn't actually tell you, to be honest. My grandfather is Norwegian, but more specifically than that I don't know.
This is all complicated shit. I'd rather just think of it as all of us being humans and call it a day.
@Monkey:
Race isn't scientific, it's just the social interactions and casual categories based on visual appearance.
… Great? I literally do not understand what you are trying to say here.
There is no "South Asia race" in any scientific sense. South Asia is an area that is defined culturally lol.
Yeah there are appearances that are distinct down there, but even that varies a ton no? There are European and East Asian looking people in South Asia, and I do mean natives.
South Asia is defined culturally huh. I thought it was a place. Like on a map.
If you're going to look at culture, look at language and so on, there are plenty of links as strong between South Asia and neighbouring regions as there are within South Asia. I don't buy this idea that South Asia is a cultural concept distinct from any other factors (like the place, appearance, etc).
Ethnically? Well you're from Pakistan, so that could be what? Punjabi? Sindhi? Pashto? Balochi? Something smaller?
@Monkey:
looks and culture
race is shit based on distinct looks
ethnicity is culture strictly
So, if I am racially Indian (because my parents are from Pakistan, their parents from India/Pakistan, etc), you're assuming I must be culturally something from that region. Either you're making that assumption or you're not applying your definition. I think I'm predominantly culturally British. So, does that make me ethnically British? If so, I think you would find few people who would share your definition in practice. Also, you left out teh poor Kashmiris.
ethnicity is absolutely not based on looks, it only seems that way if you grab an ethnic group from europe and one from africa, but grab two from europe and suddenly the idea that ethnicity has anything to do with physical features is ridiculous
Compare the Irish to the Scottish. Those are ethnicities.
The Yugoslav wars were over ethnicity, are you going to try and tell me that was over physical differences? That there WERE any?
You're trying very hard to show that an ethnic difference can exist without any, or with very few, visible differences. And sure, that's working. But you're definitely not showing that ethnicity has no physical aspect.
Honestly though, if you feel that ethnicity is an entirely cultural thing, why do you use the word 'ethnicity' over 'culture'?
The Indians i usually met tend to seem pretty Britified, even if they've never been anywhere near the UK
Figure it's kind of like how we Swedes try to model ourselves on the Germans and the Americans
Even in hospitals things are a bit wonky because when entering patient data in for race, there are some things that are just a wee bit strange. For example, Hispanics are technically an ethnicity but not a race for our clinical research data.
South Asia is defined culturally huh. I thought it was a place. Like on a map.
Yeah, a culturally defined place. Social geography.
If you're going to look at culture, look at language and so on, there are plenty of links as strong between South Asia and neighbouring regions as there are within South Asia. I don't buy this idea that South Asia is a cultural concept distinct from any other factors (like the place, appearance, etc).
Linguistics are a poor assumption to make in terms of cultural continuity. South India and North India have entirely unrelated languages, whereas North India's languages are distantly related to well…virtually everything Europe including English, as well as Persian.
But I doubt you'd agree that North Indians have more in common with Persians or Russians than they do with South Indians. Right?
Likewise, Arabic is more closely related to Hausa, a language used in northern Nigeria than it is to Turkish, a language it shares NOTHING with. But Arab culture is much closer to Turkish culture than Hausa. Certainly in Syria and Lebanon anyway.
And again Greek and Turkish have zero relation. But Greeks and Turks (grudingly) share far more culture than Greeks share with say...Denmark.
So, if I am racially Indian (because my parents are from Pakistan, their parents from India/Pakistan, etc), you're assuming I must be culturally something from that region. Either you're making that assumption or you're not applying your definition. I think I'm predominantly culturally British. So, does that make me ethnically British? If so, I think you would find few people who would share your definition in practice. Also, you left out teh poor Kashmiris.
Culturally something is involved. Culture is a soft thing, malleable. When people immigrate to other cultures it mashes it up and assimilation can happened and so forth.
And nowadays a global culture is emerging too! It's soft science, social science, there are no exact answers, just good guidelines.
But yeah, basically that's what I meant. That the culture you're in now is the English/British one for the most part, but racially you're not white. Yeah.You're trying very hard to show that an ethnic difference can exist without any, or with very few, visible differences. And sure, that's working. But you're definitely not showing that ethnicity has no physical aspect.
If ethnic difference can exist without any physical difference, than it does not belong in the definition.
This isn't small potatoes, I'd actually say most ethnic violence occurs between essentially identical populations.
Serbs/Croats, Sudanese Arabs/Darfurians, Turks/Greeks, Japanese/Koreans, Irish/English etc.Honestly though, if you feel that ethnicity is an entirely cultural thing, why do you use the word 'ethnicity' over 'culture'?
It's like the version that refers specifically to a group of people that belong to a culture.
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I was disagreeing about race being something clearly separable from that.
When you walk down the street and see a black guy, let's say a prejudice leaps into your head.
That prejudice isn't based on "Oh man, a Yoruban". It's the color.
Likewise that black guy probably isn't thinking "Oh look, a German.". He's noting a white guy.
The discussion and issue at hand is a different one.
That black guy could be the most German culturally person you'll ever meet. But he's still going to face certain issues and assumptions because of his color.
That's the matter of race.But you refuse to really even consider the discussions as to why. I'm sorry you're too much of a lazy, generalizing baby to recognize when a discussion can be insightful and well-sourced even though it's on Wikipedia.
You're getting really pissy for no readily apparent reason lol.
Also we're discussing a social science, semantics stuff. How exactly does one cite and source a definition like this? There is no fact anywhere that settles this. And no I don't care what philosopher X said. I care about what you're saying.I hope you found your retort satisfactorily condescending and elitist. There's a reason you rub so many people the wrong way; you're an arrogant prick at times and as such I don't feel inclined to continue this discussion.
If this rubbed you the wrong way you have less stock in you then most of the people you probably look down on usually that I argue with in the Manga section.
I confess I hate it when cool people argue w each other
Lets just be friends yo. We can't let race tear us apart!!
i have a dream
that one day on the teal forums of Arlong Park those who differentiate between the usage of "race" and "ethnicity" and those who see no difference between the two will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood
Thanks now I want to play MK3.
Race -> Comes from the italian razza (i.e. Una Faccia, Una Razza -> One Face, One Race)
Ethnicity -> Root (ethnos) means Nation. So ethnicity is basically the same word as Nationality that for some reason you English speakers created it to have it as an extra or something after you borrowed our word. :P Yeah, ethnicity (ethnikotita actually - stop butchering up our words you lazy bastards!) is Greek in case you didn't know.
The way I know it Greek-wise those words carry these meanings: Race has to do with biological characteristics/genetics and inherited behaviors while Ethnicity has to do with the culture one inherits from their social environment. So if his race is Pakistani, it means he is genetically Pakistani, but he is ethnically English because he grew up in England and thus has inherited the culture, language etc there. Though in Greek we don't exactly use race (Ράτσα - ratsa) for people except if kinda talking in a rather casual way about it (sometimes insulting - If you ask what race someone is, you will get a reply that goes a bit like: Race? Are you talking about a dog or something?) since we use it mainly for animals. The word for humans, is Φυλή (Fee-lee) and it refers to a group of humans with specific common or similar, hereditarily characteristics. It's tied with ethnicity but ARE NOT the same thing. Why are they usually considered to be one though and thus creating this messy argument (which I haven't actually read lol)? Because usually people who live in one place and share a common culture, are in their majority from the same race (though this for the USA, France, UK etc doesn't stand at this age and time, does it?) It's not really necessary for ethnicity to match the race and it's quite possible to have multiple races and ethnicities or one race and bits from other ethnicities or lots of races and one single ethnicity.
And then there are the 3 major groups of race (or 4 according to others) who ignore ethnicity and stick with the appearance, Caucasian, Negroid and Mongolian (and Australoid is the 4th one). Which I find are quite unfair personally, because it is possible for somebody who has Caucasian characteristics to have an ethnicity related with one of the other two/three. It kind of ignores the individual's identity.
It's really not all that complicated, but I guess it does create a lot of confusion now that all this welcomed mixing of cultures and races is going on. Not that it didn't use to happen in ancient (or not all that ancient) times too, what with all the wars and conquering that were going on. There was bound to be a soldier here and there, raping a woman from a different race and a mixed race child coming out of it. Though not really a happily received event considering the circumstances it sprouted from.
@Monkey:
Yeah, a culturally defined place. Social geography.
Linguistics are a poor assumption to make in terms of cultural continuity. South India and North India have entirely unrelated languages, whereas North India's languages are distantly related to well…virtually everything Europe including English, as well as Persian.
But I doubt you'd agree that North Indians have more in common with Persians or Russians than they do with South Indians. Right?
Likewise, Arabic is more closely related to Hausa, a language used in northern Nigeria than it is to Turkish, a language it shares NOTHING with. But Arab culture is much closer to Turkish culture than Hausa. Certainly in Syria and Lebanon anyway.
And again Greek and Turkish have zero relation. But Greeks and Turks (grudingly) share far more culture than Greeks share with say...Denmark.
Okay. I'll concede this.
Incidentally, when I said I was 'racially South Asian', which you seemed to imply was not a thing, that was where I would have said 'Asian', but put in a qualifier because I Asian has different connotations depending on where you are.
Culturally something is involved. Culture is a soft thing, malleable. When people immigrate to other cultures it mashes it up and assimilation can happened and so forth.
And nowadays a global culture is emerging too! It's soft science, social science, there are no exact answers, just good guidelines.
But yeah, basically that's what I meant. That the culture you're in now is the English/British one for the most part, but racially you're not white. Yeah.
And nobody I know (other than you) would say I am ethnically British or anything liek that. Because to at least te vast majority, ethnicity has a visible/hereditary component.
If ethnic difference can exist without any physical difference, than it does not belong in the definition.
This isn't small potatoes, I'd actually say most ethnic violence occurs between essentially identical populations.
Serbs/Croats, Sudanese Arabs/Darfurians, Turks/Greeks, Japanese/Koreans, Irish/English etc.
Haha, I think 'essentially' is the key word here. At least Japanese and Koreans are distinguishable. And if you gave me a hundred English people and a hundred Irish I could probably tell which was which from appearances alone.
Not that that's the point. Sure, where there are no distinctly visible differences then that isn't a factor. But when there are differences, those tend to factor in.
Your totally reasonable hard-and-fast rule doesn't actually exist in practice. What we're discussing is something which is perceived, not something which can be calculated or derived exactly. Perception matters. And most people consider physical appearance to factor into ethnicity in most cases.
Your rule is basically some childish inflexibility, that oh no it doesn't work in these cases to consider that factor so we oughtn't consider it whatsoever.
Fun fact: People in Cyprus or Greece usually don't recognize me as a Cypriot. They always talk to me in Russian or English right away and I get surprised stares when I open my mouth and either one of my Greek dialects (Cyprus or mainland) comes out or when I tell them I am a Greek-Cypriot. And they keep telling me I have British humor and sarcasm even when I am speaking Greek.
Then I go in the USA and I get stares because people can't place where I am from. I am 1/4 British so I have light colors for a Cypriot yet my face is quite Mediterranean. In Cyprus they call me a type of sweet that's really light colored and made with milk, yet in the USA they call me dark. In Cyprus they call me blonde but in the USA brunette.
It's so peculiar and a bit funny to me how differently I am being perceived by different people :U I wonder how my Greek-Cypriot-British-Irish-Italian American kids will turn out lol
Mixed races and cultures are the sexiest thing on this planet imho. People really shouldn't drop their ethnicity that is tied with their race and embrace it (or at least the parts they like) along with anything else they want to be, because that is fucking awesome. And sexy. Incredibly sexy. I'll try to pass that on my kids and create little Greek, English, Italian and Irish-Gaelic speaking minions. XD I'll always talk to them in Greek, let Zeph chat with them in English and get them to watch Italian cartoons when they are still young. Hopefully they will get my ease with foreign languages. Seriously, drop me in another country for a couple of months and I'll easily pick up the basics! I already can understand most of the Russian I hear in less than a year I've been working in this Russian school and without formally learning it. A few months back a student was lying to his mother about how I wasn't helping him with his homework in Russian so I wouldn't understand and when I cut him off and replied in English, they both gave me a wide-eyed look. It was hilarious. It's a pity I am too lazy to learn how to speak it.. Shame on me.
I am 1/4 British so I have light colors for a Cypriot yet my face is quite Mediterranean.
I know I've said something to this extent to you before but I can see the British influence. Your hair is English as hell.
I always get amused when we fill in UK census forms and the checkbox for race has 'White - British', 'White - Irish' and 'White - Other' amongst the options. It feels kinda arbitrary.
I'm half-German but people don't necessarily recognise me as such, apart from this part of London which has a lot of Poles who must pick up something about me because I get asked a lot which country I'm from. My brother is equally half-German but he doesn't identify with it as much as I do and is less likely to describe himself as such. I've lived in Germany but he hasn't, for example. I know that Brits and Germans aren't all that different, on a relative global scale, but it still means more to me than I often let on.
Though my actual name (all of it) is Irish.
@Print:
I always get amused when we fill in UK census forms and the checkbox for race has 'White - British', 'White - Irish' and 'White - Other' amongst the options. It feels kinda arbitrary.
o_O Woah that's weird! I get it, though.
In Canada I have problem with those censuses.
They have nothing for us brown-skin Caribbeans, so I end up staring at the "Asian" and "African" categories, and end up going with Other. True, brown skin Carribeans are descendants of the Indians back when they were brought to the Islands as workers/slaves, but I can't identify myself as Indian.
They have nothing for us brown-skin Caribbeans, so I end up staring at the "Asian" and "African" categories, and end up going with Other. True, brown skin Carribeans are descendants of the Indians back when they were brought to the Islands as workers/slaves, but I can't identify myself as Indian.
You from the Caribbean? Where are you from?
I'm a natural born Trinidadian myself.
I had this talk with my sister once. Somehow we wished we could identify ourselves as "islanders" on documents. Just cause.
You from the Caribbean? Where are you from?
I'm a natural born Trinidadian myself.I had this talk with my sister once. Somehow we wished we could identify ourselves as "islanders" on documents. Just cause.
Holy crap! I'm Trini too :o Sup?
Unfortunately I'm part of the poor unfortunate souls born outside T&T, and I haven't been to visit since I was a kid. I hear life is much different now.
Honestly though, the amount of Carribean people who have immigrated to Canada & the States, it surprises me how they don't have a category for us. Or perhaps they expect me to call myself Indian though brown Trinis can't be farther from :ninja: I mean, Trini curry far outstrips Indian curry in every single way >_>
And the only hindi I'll ever know is kuch kuch hota hai.
Holy crap! I'm Trini too :o Sup?
Unfortunately I'm part of the poor unfortunate souls born outside T&T, and I haven't been to visit since I was a kid. I hear life is much different now.Honestly though, the amount of Carribean people who have immigrated to Canada & the States, it surprises me how they don't have a category for us. Or perhaps they expect me to call myself Indian though brown Trinis can't be farther from :ninja: I mean, Trini curry far outstrips Indian curry in every single way >_>
High five! I feel like I knew this already, though that could have been another fellow islander on the site.
I forgot if we actually made our own curry or if we imported it from India. I always assumed the latter because the typography on the packets weren't written in english >_> Either way, it's some damned fine curry. It's one of the delicacies I grew up with that I can never really grow tired of.
And yeah. From what I heard, it's different. Economy being one thing. As for other things like Carnival… It's safe to assume it's mostly the same thing outside the rise and falls of calypso/soca singers. I should visit agian before I'm 30 years old though. I think about it, but as the same time I realize how much my old friends changed(for the worse too).
High five! I feel like I knew this already, though that could have been another fellow islander on the site.
I forgot if we actually made our own curry or if we imported it from India. I always assumed the latter because the typography on the packets weren't written in english >_> Either way, it's some damned fine curry. It's one of the delicacies I grew up with that I can never really grow tired of.
And yeah. From what I heard, it's different. Economy being one thing. As for other things like Carnival… It's safe to assume it's mostly the same thing outside the rise and falls of calypso/soca singers. I should visit agian before I'm 30 years old though. I think about it, but as the same time I realize how much my old friends changed(for the worse too).
I was looking up a pic of Chief curry to show you, but then I stumbled upon this:
and then I went to my fridge to shove a spoon of it in my mouth. (Made by my mom… good lord is all I'll say)
Yeah the Economy (my aunt says Trinidad's basically like walking into Canada with the stores & restaurants they have nowadays), also the crime. I've been told to be careful going there with my non-trini accent and basically foreign appearance, I hope it's not that bad.
As for Carnival, it's not my thing anymore, things have become too vulgar for my tastes.
I was looking up a pic of Chief curry to show you, but then I stumbled upon this:
http://www.trinirotishop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/r/trinidad-chief-kuchela-pepper-mango-amchar-condiment.jpgand then I went to my fridge to shove a spoon of it in my mouth. (Made by my mom… good lord is all I'll say)
Yeah the Economy (my aunt says Trinidad's basically like walking into Canada with the stores & restaurants they have nowadays), also the crime. I've been told to be careful going there with my non-trini accent and basically foreign appearance, I hope it's not that bad.
As for Carnival, it's not my thing anymore, things have become too vulgar for my tastes.
Ohmygosh! Kuchela! (___)/ Gimmie!
Crime and the vulgar side of Carnival was always kinda bad, but hey. My aunt says it's worse too, so I'll take her word for it.
The parade side of Carnival should be still pretty cool though.
It was never my thing as a kid, but hey… I won't lie when I say I enjoyed dancing badly in the streets in a (poor man's)green Power Ranger Costume for our school's Junior Carnival group (I lied. I feel embarrassed thinking about it)
But yeah. Neat meeting another Trini here. I don't know what it is, but it always exites me when I do. I recall wearing a shirt with the flag for "Flag Day" just to see if I get any responses in public >_>
It was never my thing as a kid, but hey… I won't lie when I say I enjoyed dancing badly in the streets in a (poor man's)green Power Ranger Costume for our school's Junior Carnival group
OMG XDDDDDDD oh god that's gonna be one hell of a story to tell your children. I can see it, just randomly pick up the accent and go "ey boy, when I was a young ting I was winin in di streets dressed as di damn green range-uh fuh cyah-ni-val"
Yeah! This is actually my first time meeting someone from back home who is remotely interested in manga. I'll be sure to post random trini things and food porn shots on your wall from time to time lol. I hear my mom's making fried king fish one of these days :ninja:
OMG XDDDDDDD oh god that's gonna be one hell of a story to tell your children. I can see it, just randomly pick up the accent and go "ey boy, when I was a young ting I was winin in di streets dressed as di damn green range-uh fuh cyah-ni-val"
I actually read that out loud…
Just to make fun of you for saying it's pretty bad.
But.
It isn't that bad. Hahah! Good job somehow typing it out like that.
Yeah! This is actually my first time meeting someone from back home who is remotely interested in manga. I'll be sure to post random trini things and food porn shots on your wall from time to time lol. I hear my mom's making fried king fish one of these days :ninja:
This is pure evil. Looking forward to it!
(last post about this here. Wall message me if you have more to say. Just to avoid derailing. If this counts as derailing.)
I know I've said something to this extent to you before but I can see the British influence. Your hair is English as hell.
just be glad it's your hair and not your teeth
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I confess I hate it when cool people argue w each other.
really? I always thought you were more…erm...
just be glad it's your hair and not your teeth
shudders I have my hands full enough already with that darned cat tooth I hate. Any more than that and I'd be so miserable!
Wait. :U I already am miserable lol I swear this country who so many people say refreshes them and makes them happy, sucks the life out of me. Well, it mostly is because of my family though. ZHE DRAMA IS EVERYWHERE! Then they wonder why Zeph and I announced out engagement away from everyone -3-
just be glad it's your hair and not your teeth
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really? I always thought you were more...erm...
! [qimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/antiquitas/GIFS/Gladiator_Thumb_Down_01.gif[/qimg]
FERNERSH HEEEERRRRM
Lol
see I said cool people
When two uncool peopl fight or when a cool person and an uncool person fight, then it's just entertainment
Wait. :U I already am miserable lol I swear this country who so many people say refreshes them and makes them happy, sucks the life out of me. Well, it mostly is because of my family though. ZHE DRAMA IS EVERYWHERE! Then they wonder why Zeph and I announced out engagement away from everyone -3-
Well you can't compare a vacation spot with where you live
I mean getting away from it all is the entire point. If they brought their work and family with 'em there'd be no real difference
Who wouldn't be refreshed if they could relax at a beach with vacation money coming in and their problems like 2000 miles in some other direction
Still i'm suprised there's so much tension in your family. But i guess with me being an only child i can't really relate to how annoying a huge family can be
So I am having an incident in my live that no one should be going through
! So Wednesday afternoon right when I pull into my school parking lot I get a call from my girlfriend that my best friend, someone I have known since first grade and actually consider my brother, tried and failed to kill himself (he tried to hang himself but his dad caught him before he could do it). He has been heavily using drugs for the last couple of months to the point his family and I staged an intervention for him that he never came to. Despite myself and his sister believing that he should go to rehab to kick his habit while seeking professional help, his parents believe that just us keeping an eye on him for the time being will be of better use to him.
! So despite working long hours and going to school I have kept an eye on him on Friday and yesterday. Yesterday was when I told him that he needs to go to rehab because everyone wants him to get better and that we can't be watching him all the time. He explodes and starts arguing with me to the point that I just walk out of his parent's house and go home in a combination of anger and exhaustion (I have worked thirty-one hours over the past two and a half days).
! He has been trying to talk to me since (even leaving me messages saying he is going to hurt himself again) but I told him unless he goes to rehab I will not enable him like his mom and dad are doing. I hope I am doing the right thing because if I find out he tries to kill himself again and succeeds, I don't know what I am gonna do.
No offense, but I feel as if you're definitely going about this in the wrong way. The LAST thing a suicidal person needs is to be blamed or conditioned with feeling as if they're being a burden. Whether or not you think it's the right thing to do, they need tons of support to show that life is worth living and that people care about their well being.
I mean… it's one thing if they're just claiming they're going to kill themselves (which is STILL pretty big) but it's another thing when they've actually made the attempt to do so. All your work aside, you should try being more supportive and empathetic. Have you asked him why he feels the way he does? Why he began doing drugs? Why he feels suicide is the answer? Ask him about his problems, present alternatives, show support, do something.
Don't just say, "Dur… I'm not going to ENABLE you!!1!"
Suicidal people are not in the correct state of mind and do not think logically.
^^Kind of related
It's very hard to help people in such situations, since I strongly feel that you can't rescue someone that doesn't want to be rescued(in matters of mental health).
That said shutting them down and leaving them alone is probably one of the worst actions one could take.
It's like how you don't deprive a child of your love and only show him neglect when he/she does something wrong.
As for what to do, be there beyond that it really depends, kind of useless, I know, but that's part of why people are complicated.
I'm the type to think of various things and sometimes it's influenced by my mood so people shouldn't take this the wrong way now.
But whenever I thought about/considered suicide the main thing that shut it down was the thought of how it would burden the people I would leave behind, especially my parents(and also weirdly the monetary aspect of it, funerals can be quite costly). Now I don't know how much that thought is worth to a person that made their resolve on that front, but I can't help but feel even more like shit to even see that as an escape option after how much I was given.
Suffice to say I'm blessed with the kind of parents I have.(Which sounds like I'm bragging but it was more like if you have shitty parents most of that thought process is probably pretty meaningless)
@Jazzy:
No offense, but I feel as if you're definitely going about this in the wrong way. The LAST thing a suicidal person needs is to be blamed or conditioned with feeling as if they're being a burden. Whether or not you think it's the right thing to do, they need tons of support to show that life is worth living and that people care about their well being.
I mean… it's one thing if they're just claiming they're going to kill themselves (which is STILL pretty big) but it's another thing when they've actually made the attempt to do so. All your work aside, you should try being more supportive and empathetic. Have you asked him why he feels the way he does? Why he began doing drugs? Why he feels suicide is the answer? Ask him about his problems, present alternatives, show support, do something.
Don't just say, "Dur… I'm not going to ENABLE you!!1!"
Suicidal people are not in the correct state of mind and do not think logically.
And Once Again, Jazzy Jinx tells it like it is! Awesome.
jesus christ, those twitter screencaps make me want to vomit. kind of wish I hadn't browsed through some of the previous posts now. I've grown up in a relatively nice place, in that nobody has ever called me some racist slur, and my parents never needed to teach me about this kind of thing. but then I'll occasionally be reminded, wow there are actually huge assholes, and this very country I live in interned Japanese people once upon a time! IDK, I think I really ought to visit my roots more often. I don't really think about race a whole lot. I've started to think a bit more about that kind of thing, but I'm pretty privileged not to have to put up with a lot of racist bullshit. that's probably why I never used to think about it. Although certainly if I think back, I'll remember little racist things people did, things which then make me remember I'm not quite the same as Caucasians after all.
! I hate how I keep finding more and more things I want to do, but can't find the motivation to even start one of them.
! I always cite work as the reason, but I'm sure I could do SOMETHING if I spent all this time I use to procrastinate on actually doing it.
! I hate how I keep finding more and more things I want to do, but can't find the motivation to even start one of them.
! I always cite work as the reason, but I'm sure I could do SOMETHING if I spent all this time I use to procrastinate on actually doing it.
Story of my life. Even with things I like and enjoy, I just like procrastinating the hell out of them. Like I'll tell myself I'll do something and plan it in my head and feel awesome about planning, but then never actually do it.
Story of my life. Even with things I like and enjoy, I just like procrastinating the hell out of them. Like I'll tell myself I'll do something and plan it in my head and feel awesome about planning, but then never actually do it.
Oh yeah, I do this a lot. It's even gotten to the point where as I'm thinking about doing something, I realize "I'm probably never gonna actually do this, but I sure am enjoying thinking about doing it."
Im quitting smoking
@wolfwoof:
Well you can't compare a vacation spot with where you live
I mean getting away from it all is the entire point. If they brought their work and family with 'em there'd be no real difference
Who wouldn't be refreshed if they could relax at a beach with vacation money coming in and their problems like 2000 miles in some other direction
Still i'm suprised there's so much tension in your family. But i guess with me being an only child i can't really relate to how annoying a huge family can be
I was talking about residents considering the island a perfect paradise. Not random tourists. :U
As for tension in my family, it's not exactly the right way to put it. More like unfair treatment I suppose? Which in my case, it's utterly bizarre how I am literally at the bottom. I am the only one who was a straight A's student, have a great university degree, I've always been respectful, following the rules and even now helping out with money problems. Hell just this Sunday I got burdened by my oldest brother's problem that was going to toss him into jail today, and found a solution for him completely on my own. Saved his ass once again. Yet, still considered the least important from the 4 basically lol. Not even exaggerating. Ask Zeph about how he noticed that they they treated me differently than the others. I hadn't warned him beforehand about it, yet after his visit he asked me about it which kinda surprised me. I wasn't aware myself how obvious it would be to outsiders that people in my family treated me kinda like I am… dunno, the problem child?
! Just a small thing, but I absolutely can't stand arrogant know-it-alls. Last week I decided to build a decent low budget PC to replace my bootcamped 13" Macbook Pro with no dedicated graphics card as my primary gaming platform, and the first thing I did was to go out and buy a nice 2gb HD 7750 graphics card to build the system around. Nothing high end or expensive. But, now my dad, who used to be very knowledgable on the subject of building PCs back when Windows 98 was hot, could not stop giving me the evil eye when I showed it off at home and has now taken to bugging me with the old "but you should have bought the motherboard first because now it might not be compatible" spiel, like I haven't triple checked before ordering the motherboard and CPU. Besides, seriously? I know what kind of connector is on the card and specifically filtered for compatible motherboards. I actually had classes on building PCs from scratch. It's not rocket science and I'm not an idiot. I'm already ordering parts now when I can and he'll just have to accept it, because while I did this to gain some technical experience for myself after watching him build our PCs for years, I also just really want something he cannot claim ownership of by buying and building everything by myself.I really need that kind of independence in a time when he unwittingly tramples my self confidence down into the ground every time I gain some. Feels real good to do this on my own so far, I just really hope he doesn't suddenly feel the need to take control and feel obligated to build the entire thing for me the moment I ask one question and calls me an ungrateful brat when I complain.I'm 23 and I still feel like he thinks I'm a toddler….
I hate when people smoke in front of doorways, or at sidewalk intersections. Basically anywhere where I can't completely avoid them. It really annoys the hell out of me.
I was talking about residents considering the island a perfect paradise. Not random tourists. :U
As for tension in my family, it's not exactly the right way to put it. More like unfair treatment I suppose? Which in my case, it's utterly bizarre how I am literally at the bottom. I am the only one who was a straight A's student, have a great university degree, I've always been respectful, following the rules and even now helping out with money problems. Hell just this Sunday I got burdened by my oldest brother's problem that was going to toss him into jail today, and found a solution for him completely on my own. Saved his ass once again. Yet, still considered the least important from the 4 basically lol. Not even exaggerating. Ask Zeph about how he noticed that they they treated me differently than the others. I hadn't warned him beforehand about it, yet after his visit he asked me about it which kinda surprised me. I wasn't aware myself how obvious it would be to outsiders that people in my family treated me kinda like I am… dunno, the problem child?
In what way exactly, if you don't mind me asking?
@Silent:
! Just a small thing, but I absolutely can't stand arrogant know-it-alls. Last week I decided to build a decent low budget PC to replace my bootcamped 13" Macbook Pro with no dedicated graphics card as my primary gaming platform, and the first thing I did was to go out and buy a nice 2gb HD 7750 graphics card to build the system around. Nothing high end or expensive. But, now my dad, who used to be very knowledgable on the subject of building PCs back when Windows 98 was hot, could not stop giving me the evil eye when I showed it off at home and has now taken to bugging me with the old "but you should have bought the motherboard first because now it might not be compatible" spiel, like I haven't triple checked before ordering the motherboard and CPU. Besides, seriously? I know what kind of connector is on the card and specifically filtered for compatible motherboards. I actually had classes on building PCs from scratch. It's not rocket science and I'm not an idiot. I'm already ordering parts now when I can and he'll just have to accept it, because while I did this to gain some technical experience for myself after watching him build our PCs for years, I also just really want something he cannot claim ownership of by buying and building everything by myself.I really need that kind of independence in a time when he unwittingly tramples my self confidence down into the ground every time I gain some. Feels real good to do this on my own so far, I just really hope he doesn't suddenly feel the need to take control and feel obligated to build the entire thing for me the moment I ask one question and calls me an ungrateful brat when I complain.I'm 23 and I still feel like he thinks I'm a toddler….
Hahah! You'll do fine. I had a friend that gave me shit for successfully building a computer due to having no experience in it at all. Most of my "training" and intel came from watching videos, and asking around the internet for suggestions. He just found that utterly ridiculous, and half of time he didn't know what he was talking about when he was quick to criticize. But yeah, I been happy with my almost low end custom PC for years, while my (ex)friend went through like shitty 4 machines he bought over the counter. So yeah, don't worry about how he feels. Just do your thing.
@wolfwoof:
In what way exactly, if you don't mind me asking?
Let's see.. They constantly talk down to me. Whatever I say with the utmost seriousness they treat as a joke. I had confessed something to them as a child and years later they rubbed it to my face that they believed I was lying and left me to deal with the emotional turmoil completely alone once again. When decisions are to be taken I am brushed aside. They dub me constantly with degrading names. If I don't buy them cigarettes when they ask me, they look at me with contempt and ignore me for a while. They constantly tell me I don't deserve Zephos and as soon as he 'sees my true self' he will dump me. They even recently used me as a reason to fight in front of me (which was the main reason Zeph instantly got me a ticket for the USA in July) and I got blamed for the fight even though it was my saving money they took without asking and then left me wondering if they have any respect at all for me, my privacy, my belongings and my future dreams.
And these are some of the light examples.
If I didn't have Zeph in my life, I would've driven off a cliff ages ago. You can't imagine how much he has helped me to emotionally heal and how much he helps me calm down and just stop being stressed for once in my life.
Dude they steal from you? Yeah the united states of Zephos seems like the place for you
I mean not even New York can be that bad:ninja: