It kinda gives you the idea of that but I can see why people wouldn't want thhe same thin g happening again. naruto is like that to a T
Chapter 717: "The Forgotten of Dressrosa"
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It's frustrating because it's only a minute difference in what I disagree with Zephos. On a whole I understand and agree with what you're saying, and one of Oda's messages is definitely for people to strive for big goals and aim to achieve them…
But like you're saying Zephos, people with super levels of charisma are rare. I'm not saying it's necessarily a choice from birth but...if it really was just working hard with ambition than a lot of people should have Conqueror's haki, shouldn't it? Hody for example had the drive to rule the seas, but from the way I'm seeing your words it sounds like he should have the ability as well. Some people just don't have that quality to them, otherwise why would Rayleigh say it's not a trait that can be unlocked by training (unless you think it just literally means that it can't be unlocked by strength, the words seem to imply not everybody has that spark). I guess the difference I'm bothered by is just abstract nonsense but is being rare enough to have what it takes to strive for greatness really different than being born with the ability?
I guess I'm seeing it more from the cynical side of people who do try hard but just...can't make it which obviously Oda wouldn't give as a message in a shonen but I hope you get what I mean.
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How CoC is handed down and how the Will of D is passed are probably similar.
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@Print:
Well, now I feel like an ass. Spoke before thinking about it else I'd have remembered where Damascus was the capital of. Thanks for calling me out, though. Good to see that kind of stuff doesn't fly here.
Uh I wasn't mad and I don't really think anyone should be mad. I was more just sayin'.
It wasn't like you were joking about the war. -
@Monkey:
Saying they were ordained is the same if not worse than saying they are genetically inclined. You're implying some people are just better than others by birthright as it were.
That's just NOT a thing one finds in shonen let alone most…uh...healthy outlooks on the world.
Boil it down to it's shonen core and Oda is telling his young audience that belief in self is the ultimate power. Not "YOU ARE CHOSEN BY HEAVEN OR NOT".Again, in real life, how many people have super levels of charisma to become huge businessmen, politicians, artists, or other such.
How many Steve Jobs, Gandhis, and Michael Jacksons are running around? Not many.In Naruto he was born with his "power", Ichigo was born into his power (Quincy, Shingami, Hollow), Luffy is yet to be determined….. but the fact that he has the WILL OF D, I would be surprised that its something internal that is driving him and others with that WILL.
It doesn't have to be genetic... but the WILL seems to be in a select few people. WB basically said a similar thing when he was talking the BB
"Roger is not waiting for you"
It would indicate that there is some "requirement", something inherent within an individual to make or understand the purpose of Rodger's will. Despite being a "D" BB does not have the inherent qualities necessary.... but its has been implied numerous times that Luffy does. Add to the fact WB saying Roger and Ace's WILL will be inherited... it seems that there is "something" that only a select few individuals have that will set them above the rest....
PS: When it comes to real life, I don't have the opinion of certain individuals being above others... obviously. But in a story stand point, and especially in shonen... it seems to be a common theme. Though I agree with you that Oda-san wants to convey the theme of person ambition and the will to fight for your dreams... you can't deny many shonen stories have the Main character have inheriting many of their talents/powers (again Ichigo, Naruto, and of course Goku [despite not being born a "Soldier Sayain" he was able to stand above prince Vegeta and all others in the "galaxy"]) . They were "Gifted" if you will…
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Your definition of CoC Monkey raises a question though, at least for me, namely how is the power of CoC obtained?
Let´s say it is not dormant ability by birthright but purely a manifestation of your superior ambition, spirit and willpower. How is that ambition developed though?
Is it through particular experiences, thorugh exterior influences or is it something with which you are born in the first place.
Furthermore, doesn´t that reveal consistency issues considering that there are people we have seen who are probably more ambitious and have more willpower (i really did not want to use this example but i think Zoro and Boa are a good one, the former intends to be the best in his particular field while Boa is content with her small kingdom).Continuing the real life comparison, how is that charisma of huge businessman, politicians and so forth developed? Is it something they are born with it in the first place and learned to utilize it with their personal growth or is it something that has developed with special and peculiar experiences?
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@Monkey:
Something Roger made and gathered?
This thread is a fossil exhibition between you and the Pirate Summit guy.
Here I'm talking of One Piece, the other guy was the one that talked about the Lost Century. I'm defending that One Piece and Lost century are two different things.
One Piece is Roger great Treasure, so he made and gathered! The Story of the Lost Century is something that Robin believes is in Raftel and of course wasn't something Roger did, but he found and if it is part of One Piece, then he gathered it.@Monkey:
The Bell was made of gold and so were parts of it's features.
The Skypiea treasure wasn't with the bell, it was in the belly of the snake.All the city was surrounded in gold and the rooms had Treasure! It was shown in Norland Back story!
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/4896/one-piece_ch290_by_null/6 http://www.batoto.net/read/_/4896/one-piece_ch290_by_null/10
@Monkey:
You're implying that the One Piece Roger sent people out after isn't the Real Poneglyph.
I disagree.I said that the Ryo Poneglyph was probably part of the One Piece, so implying that he sent people after the real one.
In reality it was never implied that the Poneglyph was the One Piece! The only thing about it was Robin thinking that The Rio Poneglyph was in Raftel, Rayleigh saying that they did found it, and Crocus saying that One Piece probably was in Raftel. This only implies that Rio Poneglyph is in the same place as One Piece, so maybe being part of it, but then we have Ussop still questioning Rayleigh about what is One Piece and if it really exists. For Rayleigh reactions I don't believe that One Piece is only Rio Poneglyph or if it makes part of it. -
I'm fascinated by the amount of uber-strong characters in this arc
we have Luffy, Zoro, Law, Fujitora, Doflamingo, Jesus, Chinjao, Diamante, CP0, Vice admirals and others. -
@Monkey:
Uh I wasn't mad and I don't really think anyone should be mad. I was more just sayin'.
It wasn't like you were joking about the war.Yeah, but I still appreciate the comment.
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It's the concept of "Inherited Will". All of the Strawhats have inherited will from someone. Luffy = Shanks, Zoro = Kuina, Nami = Belmere, Sanji = Sef the Red Leg, Ussop = Yassop, Chopper = Hilruk, Robin = the archaeologists/her mother, Brooke = his crew/laboon, and Franky = Tom/Tom's workers. Like Dragon and Roger have said, inherited will, the dreams of the people, and the change of an age are the most important things in one piece.
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Like Hiroy pretty much already said, i definitely agree, Oda wants to convey that believing in yourself, your dreams and thus developing a superior willpower is something that will make you strong and he has shown that countless times in the manga but i don´t think CoC, from what we know so far, falls literally under that message.
Sry, it was Gizmo, not Hiroy
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@Panda:
He's not really, though. He's simply saying that some people are more ambitious than others, by nature, which I frankly think is a statement that at the very least can lead to some interesting discussion, which you're more or less attempted to simply sweep aside.
Even Luffy wasn't always super ambitious. Do you not remember how in the flashback he was more a tagalong to Ace and Sabo? And that Ace's concern to Jimbei was how Luffy would turn out?
Even given that some people are more confident by nature, there's no debate to be had that confidence is an exclusive trait. In the second chapter, second chapter in the series, we meet Coby. Think about that for a second.
Or gee, I dunno. Usopp?
Are you saying that Oda is saying that people like Coby and Usopp are not capable of CoC? You think there's a debate to be had there?Going with your comparison to reality, how many people exist that are willing to settle for mediocrity, that are content enough with their life if they simply achieve good enough, that have no desire to be leaders, to tread new ground? As you yourself said, people that rise above such a level are the exception, rather than the norm. Yet that doesn't mean that these exceptional people are somehow 'better' than the masses, whatever that would even mean in the first place.
I'm arguing that those people are not entirely comprised of people who were or even are naturally confident in their abilities. That there was nothing ordained about many of them.
And please, whenever someone brings up mentions of ordained ability, they're making a judgement value. Don't be naive. I'm not the saying better or worse by this. -
I'm always weirded out when Japanese honorifics get thrown around in English
Feels like i'm in a dubbed samurai flick
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How CoC is handed down and how the Will of D is passed are probably similar.
You don't understand Haki at all.
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Like Hiroy pretty much already said, i definitely agree, Oda wants to convey that believing in yourself, your dreams and thus developing a superior willpower is something that will make you strong and he has shown that countless times in the manga but i don´t think CoC, from what we know so far, falls literally under that message.
It's probably just that if your father has it, you're more likely to have it too. Like Father, like son :)
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Hody for example had the drive to rule the seas, but from the way I'm seeing your words it sounds like he should have the ability as well.
Even Hody admitted that he had no real motives behind his actions. All he was doing was living up to the expectations of jaded adults like Arlong and the rest of the Fishman district.
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@Panda:
He's not really, though. He's simply saying that some people are more ambitious than others, by nature, which I frankly think is a statement that at the very least can lead to some interesting discussion, which you're more or less attempted to simply sweep aside. I suppose it gets into a matter of nature versus nurture, but I really don't think the claim that some people are naturally more ambitious than others is all that outlandish, at all.
Going with your comparison to reality, how many people exist that are willing to settle for mediocrity, that are content enough with their life if they simply achieve good enough, that have no desire to be leaders, to tread new ground? As you yourself said, people that rise above such a level are the exception, rather than the norm. Yet that doesn't mean that these exceptional people are somehow 'better' than the masses, whatever that would even mean in the first place.
The same goes for the world of One Piece, then. I really don't think it's particularly off to say that, for example, Luffy is, by his nature, more ambitious than say Makino, who seems content to run her bar in East Blue. Where I, or anyone else, would be stating that Luffy is somehow 'better' than Makino in making that claim, I'm not at all sure.
Lol, you get me
Like you said, I don't mean to say that Luffy is better than the rest of the world, or the all CoC are better human beings that should trample everyone else. I wanted to convey the notion that their are special people that come once in a well that take the world by storm: In real life ppl such as Michael Jackson, Gandi, MLK, Wayne Gretzky, etc. People with that "X Factor" that alleviate them into a sphere above the average person. In regards to OP, I feel that those with HAKI = Amibiton are similar individuals with the X Factor to stand above all others.
Again, not in a belittling and subjugating way… just in a unique and special way.
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@Monkey:
You don't understand Haki at all.
I've noticed that you're naturally callous and sarcastic so im not going to take that to heart :)
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Luffy's probably gonna destroy the factory by accident mid-fight :)
lol, i like the idea. after that all hell break loose
@RPG:
great cover page with the SH and law. this further pushes the idea the luffy and law might have a WB and Roger relationship later on i the series. What thhe hell is up with the old man .he
super emotoial about garp. maybe garp took a fruit he had his eye on and took it to the navy or something. And the tin soldier said what we all been thinking since we first saw Dressrosa. I
wonder who inn the Flamingo family has it.
hahaha this like buggy and shank, when shank surprise buggy while having DF on his mouth and ended with buggy swallowing it.
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I don't know about you guys but the word ordained has really grown on me
Like imagine a dude namned Ordained Jackson
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@wolfwoof:
I don't know about you guys but the word ordained has really grown on me
Like imagine a dude namned Ordained Jackson
It reminds me a lot of church.
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hmm i'm on understanding that at roger era no one has ever reach raftle, and from rayleigh story at shaky's bar roger crew are the first one.
for that, everyone called roger as the captain of the crew "Pirates King"yes, from whitebeard x roger flashback scene at marinefort war, we know that not all the pirate wants to conquer grand line
(in this case whitebeard, he just want a family and not that interested when roger offer the whereabout of rafftle)
but from crocodille word at impledown, he said many second medalist who had their dreams shatered by roger or whitebeardfrom this i take that there are some pirate like roger that have the dream to be the first one to conquer grand line
and because of that theres must be some sort competition between them.anyway that what i understand from the story so far.
Most of their objective was like Brook crew, to travel around the world!(In the world of One Piece it seems is impossible in any other way) Raftel was found by Roger, until then nobody, supposedly, knew about his existence.
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It's probably just that if your father has it, you're more likely to have it too. Like Father, like son :)
Not exactly.
If your father is a big man, you have a natural push to become at least as good as your father or become better, like in Ace's case.
Though some don't have that push at all, or, like Hermeppo, they initially fail at conveying the strength necessary to become a better man.
Or having a repressive father can take you out of the ambition road at all.
It's more normal and life like than you think, but it's psychologic and not genetic -
@Tainted:
In Naruto he was born with his "power",
And Naruto is a bad manga. Your point?
Ichigo was born into his power
Bleach doesn't even have themes, so bringing it up here is silly.
Also it's even worse than Naruto.Kishimoto and especially Kubotite are not credible authors who know what the heck they're doing in delivering a message.
Luffy is yet to be determined
Luffy ate a silly devil fruit and started out a harmless kid. And after training he achieved his power.
His personality is the reason if anything that he can acheive CoC easier than some other people, but personality being part of someone is much more credible than say…having a fox demon in you or whatever the hell Ichigo's deal was.….. but the fact that he has the WILL OF D, I would be surprised that its something internal that is driving him and others with that WILL.
I'm sorry, but did you per chance read a chapter no one else did that revealed what the will of D was?
Also did you perhaps miss the character "Jaguar D Saul" who was not a super ambitious uberman, but a modest Marine who died to save a little girl?
The Will of D, and the D's are much more likely to suggest lineage to the Ancient Kingdom or something, an inherited will in that sense…than...whatever thing you're implying.It doesn't have to be genetic… but the WILL seems to be in a select few people. WB basically said a similar thing when he was talking the BB
You mean when Whitebeard told Blackbeard, a D, that he WASN'T the person Roger was expecting?
I think you just defeated your own point.
Of course you also did that by mentioning noted non D, Whitebeard.It would indicate that there is some "requirement", something inherent within an individual to make or understand the purpose of Rodger's will.
Probably being not a horrible asshole is my guess.
Despite being a "D" BB does not have the inherent qualities necessary…. but its has been implied numerous times that Luffy does. Add to the fact WB saying Roger and Ace's WILL will be inherited... it seems that there is "something" that only a select few individuals have that will set them above the rest....
Do you not know what a will is? I don't think you know what a will is.
PS: When it comes to real life, I don't have the opinion of certain individuals being above others… obviously. But in a story stand point, and especially in shonen... it seems to be a common theme.
Shonen? You mean the genre made famous by the fighting manga where a low born orphan with amnesia eventually dwarfed the high proud prince in power?
No, actually shonen emphasizes hard work and spirit. Not predestination.
Unless you are one of those people who actually thinks Naruto and Bleach are defining shonen mangas, and good.Though I agree with you that Oda-san wants to convey the theme of person ambition and the will to fight for your dreams… you can't deny many shonen stories have the Main character have inheriting many of their talents/powers (again Ichigo, Naruto, and of course Goku [despite not being born a "Soldier Sayain" he was able to stand above prince Vegeta and all others in the "galaxy"]) .
Yeah, Goku, who had absolutely nothing inherent going for him whatsoever. That Goku?
And yes, you do seem to think Naruto and Bleach are arbiters of what shonen is or isn't. They are not.
Instead you might want to throw Slam Dunk in there, with the idiot delinquent joining the Basketball team and becoming a good player. Slam Dunk is actually a shonen legend, such that Bleach will never be. -
Not exactly.
If your father is a big man, you have a natural push to become at least as good as your father or become better, like in Ace's case.
Though some don't have that push at all, or, like Hermeppo, they initially fail at conveying the strength necessary to become a better man.
Or having a repressive father can take you out of the ambition road at all.
It's more normal and life like than you think, but it's psychologic and not geneticThat's what "like father, like son" means lol. Son imitates the father subconcsiously, sometimes without thinking.
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@Monkey:
I'm gonna put it out there that I don't think the tournament is about to be interrupted. Characters like Burgess, Bartolomew and Cavendish have been set up and introduced, but none of them have any reason to give a shit about the factory. It would be weird for Oda to end the tournament for the factory with these three still running around.
It's obvious that at one point the colloseum will colapse and Luffy and the other Strwhats will be brought together. I think it will be before the tournament ends because of Odas fondness for great chaotic climaxes. I also don't see the problem with the introduction of Burgess, Bartolomew, Cavendish and Rebecca as they are clearly involved in the Strawhats or Dressrosas past beyond the tournament.
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I've noticed that you're naturally callous and sarcastic so im not going to take that to heart :)
You don't have to care about me, but understanding what Haki is is something you should probably get around to doing.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It's probably just that if your father has it, you're more likely to have it too. Like Father, like son :)
So you don't study history huh.
It might help to notice how many super awesome kings and such people had moronic sons who ruined their inherited kingdoms.
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I think Burgess being in the tournament might be a troll by Oda. It's entirely possible that the tournament gets interrupted and Burgess completes his mission to obtain the fruit while the strawhats choose to save the people in the factory. A conflict of interest between the fruit and the well-being of other people could force Luffy to make the right choice and abandon the fruit :(
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@Señor:
Even Hody admitted that he had no real motives behind his actions. All he was doing was living up to the expectations of jaded adults like Arlong and the rest of the Fishman district.
Hody has massive ambitions, what on earth are you talking about.
He said that humans had never done anything to him personally. That's not remotely the same as saying he had no ambitions.
Hody (because of people like Arlong) believes in a race war mentality regardless of personal interaction with humans or no.
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@Monkey:
Saying they were ordained is the same if not worse than saying they are genetically inclined. You're implying some people are just better than others by birthright as it were.
That's just NOT a thing one finds in shonen let alone most…uh...healthy outlooks on the world.
Boil it down to it's shonen core and Oda is telling his young audience that belief in self is the ultimate power. Not "YOU ARE CHOSEN BY HEAVEN OR NOT".Regardless of Oda's intent, (which I can't speak for) I don't really see how this manifests itself in the story. Maybe I'm just missing something fundamental and obvious, but I see plenty of ambitious people in this story who got shit on because their willpower didn't manifest into magic.
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@Uncle:
It's obvious that at one point the colloseum will colapse and Luffy and the other Strwhats will be brought together. I think it will be before the tournament ends because of Odas fondness for great chaotic climaxes. I also don't see the problem with the introduction of Burgess, Bartolomew, Cavendish and Rebecca as they are clearly involved in the Strawhats or Dressrosas past beyond the tournament.
This would not be a great chaotic climax at all.
Oda has introduced many things, and still NOT introduced many things in this arc, all that require more breathing room to be worth their while.
This factory thing may involve sneaking into it.
Either way I say this is the mid-point of the arc, and not the final fight.It would suck to be the final fight now.
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@Monkey:
You don't have to care about me, but understanding what Haki is is something you should probably get around to doing.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So you don't study history huh.
It might help to notice how many super awesome kings and such people had moronic sons who ruined their inherited kingdoms.
I said "probably", it's not a certain thing but it happens often enough that people make quotes about it. It seems you have a love for nitpicking but you can try to calm down a bit since I haven't really mentioned anything of import just yet.
Comparing CoC and the Will of D is nothing special since both seem to concern "will" and have been said to be passed down in families (the D. in all their middle names obviously means something). That's really all you need to decide to compare the two. Nothing there implies a lack of knowledge of haki.
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Regardless of Oda's intent, (which I can't speak for) I don't really see how this manifests itself in the story. Maybe I'm just missing something fundamental and obvious, but I see plenty of ambitious people in this story who got shit on because their willpower didn't manifest into magic.
Oda never said having ambition means you win. In fact he has deliberately mentioned they don't since Baratie.
Go reread (with a good translation) Zeff's words to Sanji during the Luffy/Krieg match.
Zeff says lots of stuff about willpower, but he also mentions a simple line about "Whether these types of guys win or lose, I always root for them".
Ambition doesn't mean you win. But Oda is saying it's the only real way to live and try for your dream.
If it was all about winning and succeeding Luffy wouldn't have smiled on the execution platform. -
That's what "like father, like son" means lol. Son imitates the father subconcsiously, sometimes without thinking.
Or someone else, like Shanks in Luffy's case.
Though in Luffy's case, that is the only one we can speak about, he surely shaped a lot like Garp, stubborness, disturbs of attention and the such.Also, on a bigger unrelated note to people comparing One Piece to Naruto, etc.
One Piece is not a manga where things are put here and there at random.
Just a silly thing that is common in manga like voraciousness of the characters is not random and is explained when Garp teaches Luffy (and Ace) if I remember well to keep fed because Marines never know when they're going to be dispatched. -
I said "probably", it's not a certain thing but it happens often enough that people make quotes about it. It seems you have a love for nitpicking but you can try to calm down a bit since I haven't really mentioned anything of import just yet.
You know, there are things I nitpick.
But not understanding a huge theme in the series that Oda has manifested into a superpower doesn't strike me as a nitpick.Comparing CoC and the Will of D is nothing special since both seem to concern "will"
No they don't. They concern completely different meanings of the word will.
One is will like willpower, the other is will like "a thing left behind for others". I bet if we were in Japan we wouldn't even be having this conversation. -
@Monkey:
Even Luffy wasn't always super ambitious. Do you not remember how in the flashback he was more a tagalong to Ace and Sabo? And that Ace's concern to Jimbei was how Luffy would turn out?
Even given that some people are more confident by nature, there's no debate to be had that confidence is an exclusive trait. In the second chapter, second chapter in the series, we meet Coby. Think about that for a second.
Or gee, I dunno. Usopp?
Are you saying that Oda is saying that people like Coby and Usopp are not capable of CoC? You think there's a debate to be had there?I'm arguing that those people are not entirely comprised of people who were or even are naturally confident in their abilities. That there was nothing ordained about many of them.
And please, whenever someone brings up mentions of ordained ability, they're making a judgement value. Don't be naive. I'm not the saying better or worse by this.First of all, I would probably argue with your claim that Luffy was not always as ambitious as he is now. Even during his flashback, he had already set his mind on being a pirate, and a great one at that, if not necessarily the King of the Pirates. (I honestly don't recall at what point he first made that claim.) Still, putting that aside and simply accepting your point, that simply reinforces what I was saying about there being interesting discussion to be had. I never meant to claim that ambition is purely a part of one's nature that one is born with; the whole point is the discussion, as I said, of nature versus nurture, and to what extent each determines a person's level of ambitions.
I'm honestly not entirely sure what you mean by the concept of certain people not 'being able' to possess CoC. Given that that is essentially synonymous with possessing great levels of ambition, which is a very real thing, I will again make a comparison to reality. I consider myself a rather average person, something which I am quite happy with, and with which I certainly see nothing wrong. I do not at all believe that I could ever simply 'choose' to be more ambitious than I am, anymore than I could, say, 'choose' to enjoy the taste of tapioca pudding. In that sense, I suppose, I would say that I 'cannot' be more ambitious than I am. At the same time, however, I believe it is perfectly possible that events could occur in my life that would drive me to greater ambitions, and thus in that sense, it is certainly possible that I will one day be more ambitious than I am.
Finally, as an aside, of course when someone brings up the concept of an ordained ability, they're making a judgement value. In this case, that judgement is 'some people are naturally more ambitious than others'. It says nothing whatsoever about those same people being 'better', in some nebulous, overarching sense, than others; that was, in fact, very much something that you claimed, not Tainted.
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@Monkey:
Oda never said having ambition means you win. In fact he has deliberately mentioned they don't since Baratie.
Go reread (with a good translation) Zeff's words to Sanji during the Luffy/Krieg match.
Zeff says lots of stuff about willpower, but he also mentions a simple line about "Whether these types of guys win or lose, I always root for them".
Ambition doesn't mean you win. But Oda is saying it's the only real way to live and try for your dream.
If it was all about winning and succeeding Luffy wouldn't have smiled on the execution platform.Yup, Zeff mentions the spear in the heart.
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In One Piece not only gold is Treasure, but that doesn't mean gold isn't Treasure either. I believe One Piece is the treasures gathered during Roger and his crew travels. So I believe it will be Gold and others objects of value for his crew, for him, for the friends they made and maybe even for enemies they fought( Maybe there is something that was important for Garp. His marine scarf or hat for example. And Whitebeard, maybe his hat). Of course, because he probably put his treasure in Raftel, the Ryo Ponegliph and even Raftel now are part of One Piece too.
Probably he had a member who draw all the places they had traveled, so the maps are part of One Piece. He had Crocus that was a great doctor, maybe Crocus wrote books of deceases and cures he found/invented in their travels and his entire life. Maybe he had a cook that stored a lot of fishes/recipes of the places they traveled in the ship and later freed them in a lake in Raftel, The fishes not the recipes. Maybe he had a historian/fantasy writer/Bard that wrote a lot of books with stories and musics about their brave travels and the stories they heard from others. An important thing from his friend Gan Fall and others friends. Even Oro Jackson, his ship, and his hat would make part of One Piece! And last but not least, the countless gold in his crew possession. That would made a Treasure worth of being called the biggest treasure of all, The ONE PIECE!
More, when the Strawhats reach it, they will discover that the possessions and knowledge they gathered through their travels, supplement if not equals(I don't think so, because Luffy is only traveling for a short time, compared with the years Gold D. Roger made has a pirate) the One Piece that they found. Maybe in the end Luffy makes the same thing as Gol D Roger and let's all his, his crew and his friends valued treasures in Raftek. Nami world map or her grapefruit(Mikan) trees(or both), Chopper cures or hat(or both), Robin writes her interpretation of the story, including the void century, Zoro let's his swords(Maybe only kuina) or scarf or the green thing in his belt(or everything), Ussop his tales and songs, Sanji his recipes and some fishes he gathered in the Thousand Sunny, Brook his songs or soul king hat or sword or the dial, with his last song(or everything), Franky the Thousand Sunny, luffy is hat! But it doesn't end here and maybe even something from Vivi, Ace(His devil fruit?), Cobby(glasses?), Kuma(bible?Hat?), Hanckock, Hachi, his father Dragon, Shanks(his sword?), even Blackbeard and Akainu, and others.
That would be a great One Piece!
I would lol if they got there and there was a note like "We wanted to leave you some gold too, but Rayleigh wanted for gambling, so what can you do? Oh, and my medical expenses. That Crocus."
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I quote myself since i would like an answer or at least a discussion about this, not only from MK though
Your definition of CoC Monkey raises a question though, at least for me, namely how is the power of CoC obtained?
Let´s say it is not dormant ability by birthright but purely a manifestation of your superior ambition, spirit and willpower. How is that ambition developed though?
Is it through particular experiences, thorugh exterior influences or is it something with which you are born in the first place.
Furthermore, doesn´t that reveal consistency issues considering that there are people we have seen who are probably more ambitious and have more willpower (i really did not want to use this example but i think Zoro and Boa are a good one, the former intends to be the best in his particular field while Boa is content with her small kingdom).Continuing the real life comparison, how is that charisma of huge businessman, politicians and so forth developed? Is it something they are born with it in the first place and learned to utilize it with their personal growth or is it something that has developed with special and peculiar experiences?
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@Monkey:
You know, there are things I nitpick.
But not understanding a huge theme in the series that Oda has manifested into a superpower doesn't strike me as a nitpick.No they don't. They concern completely different meanings of the word will.
One is will like willpower, the other is will like "a thing left behind for others". I bet if we were in Japan we wouldn't even be having this conversation.Inherited will is a will that's been left behind after death and we've seen Ace's will in Luffy e.g. Red hawk attack. The main reason the whitebeard pirates tried so hard to save Luffy was to preserve Ace's will. I'm sure its become apart of what drives his CoC. All these things are connected.
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@Monkey:
snip
lol
I never said that Bleach or Naruto were the pennicle of Shonen manga… just that they had themes where the MC gifted with something that would later aid in their powering up/achieving their goals.
In regards to my main point... all I am trying to say is that in OP there are some special people. Thats it. People that are talented and have the desire to go beyond the norm. From Luffy to Coby....
You make it sound like Coby was worthless with no inherent qualities. But Luffy hoped bring the best out of him. But if Coby didn't have that strong WILL to change himself... than it would have been for naught. Saul background is still largely unkown: a giant NOT form Elbaf that was friends with Kuzan. If we go by other characters in the series and the ppl that are friends with them:
WB/ his nakama
Roger/ his nakama
Luffy/ his nakamaNot only were the captains powerful but their nakama are also quite skilled as well. So going by that logic... Kuzan and Jaguar were close friends and that would mean they were capable to each in both strength and "possibly" ideals.
But that not really my main focus... My point is that Will is in everyone, but a select few are able to take that WILL and make themselves above the norm and into legends: Coby, Luffy, Zoro, BB, Kidd, etc have this drive. And with this recent chapter, Don C just made it more clear that there are even MORE ppl with that WILL waiting in the New World.
The Conquerors will be the ones to determine the outcome of this era.
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@Monkey:
This would not be a great chaotic climax at all.
Oda has introduced many things, and still NOT introduced many things in this arc, all that require more breathing room to be worth their while.
This factory thing may involve sneaking into it.
Either way I say this is the mid-point of the arc, and not the final fight.It would suck to be the final fight now.
Oh, I just said that the tournament will be interrupted before the declaration of the tournament-winner. I do also think it will take it's time and that there will be enough action and reveal of informations beneath and above the tournament area at the same time. Guess I simply missread your post…
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I quote myself since i would like an answer or at least a discussion about this, not only from MK though
Charisma is someway innate, like intelligence.
It's something that you can hone if you have it, but no one can teach you charisma and intelligence.
Still, they're not passed from father/mother to son with genes.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Tainted:
lol
I never said that Bleach or Naruto were the pennicle of Shonen manga… just that they had themes where the MC gifted with something that would later aid in their powering up/achieving their goals.
In regards to my main point... all I am trying to say is that in OP there are some special people. Thats it. People that are talented and have the desire to go beyond the norm. From Luffy to Coby....
You make it sound like Coby was worthless with no inherent qualities. But Luffy hoped bring the best out of him. But if Coby didn't have that strong WILL to change himself... than it would have been for naught. Saul background is still largely unkown: a giant NOT form Elbaf that was friends with Kuzan. If we go by other characters in the series and the ppl that are friends with them:
WB/ his nakama
Roger/ his nakama
Luffy/ his nakamaNot only were the captains powerful but their nakama are also quite skilled as well. So going by that logic... Kuzan and Jaguar were close friends and that would mean they were capable to each in both strength and "possibly" ideals.
But that not really my main focus... My point is that Will is everyone, but a select few are able to take that WILL and make themselves above the norm and into legends: Coby, Luffy, Zoro, BB, Kidd, etc have this drive. And with this recent chapter, Don C just made it more clear that there are even MORE ppl with that WILL waiting in the New World.
The Conquerors will be the ones to determine the outcome of this era.
It's better and more comprehensible if you use Haki/Ambition and Will (of D.) as 2 different things, since they ARE
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Most of their objective was like Brook crew, to travel around the world!(In the world of One Piece it seems is impossible in any other way) Raftel was found by Roger, until then nobody, supposedly, knew about his existence.
I didn't means they competing to reach raftle, i just saying theres must be some pirate on rogers era that want to conquer the grand line
and thus created some sort of competition -
@Panda:
snip .
16 characters of nicely said
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Charisma is someway innate, like intelligence.
It's something that you can hone if you have it, but no one can teach you charisma and intelligence.
Still, they're not passed from father/mother to son with genes.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It's better and more comprehensible if you use Haki/Ambition and Will (of D.) as 2 different things, since they ARE
Though that has yet to be determine…. but regardless, noted
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@Monkey:
Oda never said having ambition means you win. In fact he has deliberately mentioned they don't since Baratie.
Go reread (with a good translation) Zeff's words to Sanji during the Luffy/Krieg match.
Zeff says lots of stuff about willpower, but he also mentions a simple line about "Whether these types of guys win or lose, I always root for them".
Ambition doesn't mean you win. But Oda is saying it's the only real way to live and try for your dream.
If it was all about winning and succeeding Luffy wouldn't have smiled on the execution platform.I see, but that fact that it doesn't even manifest in any way gives off the impression that they just didn't care enough.
Edit: For example, why did Ace get to save Luffy but Nami didn't get to save Bellemere?
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@Tainted:
16 characters of nicely said
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Though that has yet to be determine.... but regardless, noted
It's 2 different things :)
Whitebeard, Rayleigh and Chinjao have CoC and are not D.
I'll go further and predict that at 80% BlackBeard won't have CoC by the end of the manga even if he's a D. -
so raise your CoC to be stronger than everyone elses and you'll be the king of kings! I guess CoC determines your growth and level of your will to stand above others.
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It's 2 different things :)
Whitebeard, Rayleigh and Chinjao have CoC and are not D.
I'll go further and predict that at 80% BlackBeard won't have CoC by the end of the manga even if he's a D.Oh I 1000% agree with you. I am just implying that there may be more to the "Will of D" and "Haki". I have read many theories over the years that have made attempts to link the two in some way.
But I agree CoC is not the same as having "D" in you name.
Though Edwar D Newgate begs to differ…...........:ninja: (I mostly joking by the way, lol)
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It's obvious that Ace's life experience, growing as a demon child has and with his father hate relation has more chance to develope CoC.
it was will to protect loved ones ! he hated losing them, being hated by everyone had influence on that, but hating his father?
A conflict of interest between the fruit and the well-being of other people could force Luffy to make the right choice and abandon the fruit :(
luffy letting go fruit into the hands of someone who is in the crew of someone who led ace to death? i would hate that
Comparing CoC and the Will of D is nothing special since both seem to concern "will" and have been said to be passed down in families (the D. in all their middle names obviously means something). That's really all you need to decide to compare the two. Nothing there implies a lack of knowledge of haki.
they arent passed down in families, nor same.
@Monkey:
Ambition doesn't mean you win. But Oda is saying it's the only real way to live and try for your dream.
If it was all about winning and succeeding Luffy wouldn't have smiled on the execution platform.just asking, what was ace's ambition?
Inherited will is a will that's been left behind after death and we've seen Ace's will in Luffy e.g. Red hawk attack.
his will in ace? maybe you could say more motivation to protect others but red hawk attack??