What's with all this "can't beat Eneru" stuff? Luffy's comment is best illustrated with an analogy; Eneru is a huge fish in a large pond. When he gets driven out of the pond, he ends up in the ocean, with sharks, whales and hordes of other big fish. Eneru's got a great fruit, and he's got some awesome abilities, but its not like he's going to be the strongest guy in the whole series. I think people are taking the God symbolism a bit too far.
Power of Lucci compared to the Shichibukai.
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chibi-zoro, it's "sekai saikyou no otoko, daikaizoku 'shirohige,' edowaado nyuugeeto."
Thanks! dwaro.
theinvisibleworm, yeah, the narrator is the one that calls Whitebeard the strongest man in the world. I think that there are definitely strong pirates out there who could take down Enel, just based simply upon what we've seen thus far. Well, the only one I'd bet could definitely trounce him is DoFlamingo, as you mention. I think that other logia users might be able to, depending on their ability. I'm not sure; we'll see perhaps in a side story. For Whitebeard, I think it is at least the case that he could defend himself against most logia abilities, but not that he could necessarily take down each and every type in a fight. Oh yeah, where does it say that Whitebeard came to a draw in fighting Roger? I missed that in the manga.
When I say that I don't think OP is dbz-ish, I don't mean that characters don't have dbz type abilities. Obviously some of them do. But it's not the same power-level type manga that Bleach is, for instance. There's more to it than that, like Naruto, no? Even with the division into genin and jounin and the like, there is no simple power level scale. There are classes, but no single number which would allow you to predict the outcome of a fight. The whole douriki thing is still unclear…. Even if it is a scale of that sort, I'm sure Nami will come out on top, and she definitely can't beat Kalifa in douriki...
Fanservice, I don't think terming your wild posts fanfiction is stooping very low; others have done it already. Maybe if you were nicer in your posts I'd refrain, but given your typical behavior I feel that the occasional backhanded comment is not unjustified. As my above explanation probably has made clear already, I am open to the possibility that Lucci could somehow be immune to Enel's lightning attack. That still doesn't clear up the whole problem with how he would actually make his blows hurt Enel though. Your repeated refusal to consider anchoring speculation in the manga was very annoying and destroys the whole possibility for dialogue and debate on this subject. If there is just fanfiction, then no give and take is possible.
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Yes, I do assume Roger could have defeated Eneru. I don't think this is unreasonable either, since he literally defeated everyone he ever fought except for whitebeard, and the narrator calls him the strongest man in the world. The implication is pretty obvious (at least to me).
How much are you willing to bet that there would be, at least, one guy to use the "Gold Roger died even before "came into power" and destroyed Bilca and owned Skypiea" argument? :D
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Fanservice, I don't think terming your wild posts fanfiction is stooping very low; others have done it already. Maybe if you were nicer in your posts I'd refrain, but given your typical behavior I feel that the occasional backhanded comment is not unjustified. As my above explanation probably has made clear already, I am open to the possibility that Lucci could somehow be immune to Enel's lightning attack. That still doesn't clear up the whole problem with how he would actually make his blows hurt Enel though. Your repeated refusal to consider anchoring speculation in the manga was very annoying and destroys the whole possibility for dialogue and debate on this subject. If there is just fanfiction, then no give and take is possible.
If I were nicer? Since when did I flame anyone? What typical behavior? It's stooping so low because it's an insult that had no bearing whatsoever to this discussion/mental masturbation. It's not wild posts. It's called using your logic that THIS IS JUST A MANGA. And it's not like you're here long enough either or you "understood the manga" better than the rest of us. It's just that you have a different opinion than the others.
Since you're open to the possibility of Lucci being immune to Enel's attacks, then fine. It's settled already.
How will his blows hurt Enel? It's as simple as the author wanting it to hurt to Enel and giving some (either rational or irrational) explanation for it. The fights in OP doesn't have to have scientific basis, IMO. For some fights like Enel/Luffy, it makes perfect sense since it's easier to base in real life. The fight between Croc and Luffy and it's "rational" explanation as to how he defeated Croc (the blood factor, not the water factor) is ridiculous. But we accept it because it's what happened. Why can't you just imagine that maybe, Shingan or Soru could be that powerful enough to hurt lightning Enel given the inconsistencies in the manga? Your mind is closed and always says "It's hard to think of Shingan even hurting/scratching Enel" when I go, "Nah, maybe there's something about it that the author hasn't discussed yet."
I'm not saying that it will happen, I'm saying that you guys are overanalyzing stuff.
I refuse to speculate gray area in the manga because it's more likely that the points we will state are our preferences and not the truth. It's impossible to have a pure give and take in these sorts of discussions because there's nothing solid/absolute that we can base this on.
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Since shigan mimics a bullet, and logias are immune to bullets, I'd have to say that logias would be immune to shigan. Soru is mainly a movement form, not an attack form, so I fail to see how soru by itself would be able to hurt someone. I don't see any inconsistencies, either, with regard to the blood/water thing. Crocodile said himself that the power in sand is dryness, and if he's not dry, then he loses his power. Of course, he remedies this by sucking out the moisture in everything, but still. Blood is wet, being composed mainly of water. So, I guess I fail to see any inconsistency.
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I understand what you're saying with regards to DBZ, or at least I think I do.
You're saying that there are rock/paper/scizzors situations and that a stronger character isn't necessarily going to win a fight (at least not just because the character is stronger). If I'm mistaken here I'd like you to explain it because that's the only concept I can imagine you're talking about, especially since you used Nami in her fight with Califa as an example.
I agree with you 100%, and that's why I believe that there are many characters who could defeat Eneru despite his incredible power. The fact that Usopp has managed to defeat characters with much 'better' abilities than those that he possess is testament to this. I don't think that without Luffy, should Eneru have wanted to, he could have came down to the blue seas and wiped out the great pirates for the fun of it, nor do I think he'd be able to become pirate king.
We're not really arguing at this point since you've said that you believe Whitebeard probably has at least some way to defend himself against most logias, and you agree that there is at least one character who could beat Enel besides Luffy (DoFlamingo), and I'm not going to take some kind of extremist leap and say that Eneru would just get flatly owned by the great pirates. I think he'd lose, though. Our only difference of opinion seems to be in whether or not Lucci could defeat Eneru, and I no longer have the motivation to keep that argument going (it's redundant on both sides anyway).
As for Whitebeard being the only person to match Gol D Roger evenly, or specifically to fight him and come to a draw, I can't go look it up at the moment (I am compiling paging landscape scene manager into my ogre cvs), but I'm pretty sure it's directly stated 'somewhere'.
I'll look for it tomorrow though, since you asked. It's possible that it only says he was the only person evenly matched with gol d roger, rather than stating that the two actually fought to a draw. I'm just going off of memory, but I'm rather positive that it states one or the other. But since I claimed it I better look for it, so tomorrow I will.
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It was Buggy who said it in 233.
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theinvisibleworm, yeah, I am saying that it is a rock-paper-scissors sort of situation, but not absolutely. I mean, characters are ranked into various tiers, so that no one on a shichibukai (sitibukai) level is going to lose to some no name pirate. But within various tiers (or at the edges between two tiers) you will have person A who can beat person B but not person C, even though person B can beat person C.
Fanservice, look at how you post. It is possible to be a jerk and not flame anyone. Your treatment of various people is proof of that. You attack people all the time. If you can't take a small and justified swipe, then don't dish out unjustified abuse to other people. OP is a fantasy world. There is no scientific basis, but the author nevertheless does give reasons as to why things happen because he's a good storyteller. In the OP world, he has thus far established that logia users (in a fight) cannot be hurt without first neutralizing their abilities. This either involves seastone/sea water or the element's natural weakness. In contrast, there are many indications that people can survive elemental attacks. Thus, it is less of a stretch to imagine Oda endowing characters with resistance to lightning for instance because they're super big and strong. (If we wanted to give a pseudo-scientific explanation, we could note that larger animals can withstand greater shocks or something of that sort.) Oda has indicated on a number of occasions that a purely physical, non-elemental attack cannot hurt logia users. So why would he start contradicting himself now? If you think that he will, fine. But then you shouldn't attack others for not sharing your opinion and, moreover, for trying to root our speculations in the manga. Other Lucci supporters do it. If you can't, then dont post in this thread.
and dwaro, thanks again for the reference. you're awesome.
http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-3/volume25.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=4815
Ah, I see that Buggy also calls Whitebeard the strongest man in the world. So it is both a fact established by the narrator and a generally recognized fact by the inhabitants of the One Piece world. I guess Ace probably says something like that too. -
and hawkeyes is the strongest swordsman in the world. Its the unmoveable object against the unstopable object. Until Oda further explains whitebeard/shanks and other pirate strengths we do not know explicitly how strong both in fighting ability, anti logia ability and why the world government doesent simply send out people to eliminate them.
Lucci is a goon. He is basically a biger tougher arlong. Both the fights with croc and enel demonstrated different facets of luffy. Croc was a battle of stamina and learning how to manupilate your DF if they fought again luffy could still possibly lose due to the abilities he is demonstrating here not necessarly being applicable to a fight with croc as stated previously. Likewise the fight against enel has nothing to do directly with the fight with croc or lucci.
As for the whole logia issue of what are they in their base conditions. We saw from the point where I believe enel being asleep and being attacked. From this it is a default condition. However we do not know what happens if someone is knocked unconscious and if that is a loophole in the logia debate. Enel fell through the clouds, Croc could have simply been picked up by smoker and using seastone stick neutralized. The only thing that is applicable from the previous fights is that they were different fights and this is not DBZ where the next enemy you face is always stronger then the last one in every single category.
Is Lucci the fastest vilian to date, quite possibly. Does he have the most physical strength again quite posibly the exception being maybe arlong in the water. However this fight of him vs luffy is one explicitly of someone who has all the traits that are exceptionally harmful to luffy. That being claws and pointy zoan teeth. If he was something like a pig or something equally harmless like a giraffe he would be absolutely no match for luffy regardless of how physically strong or fast he might be. But he is fast and has offencive weapons in zoan form so he is a huge threat to luffy by nature. One Piece isnt dragon ball Z where every character is X times more powerful and the hero must be X+1 more powerful by the end of the fight. Luffy might not have even increased his physical strength by much since he arrived but he has been learning how to tweak his DF to get more out of it. Stamina sure that got better but his raw physical strength has not increased all that much he is just learning how to get more out of his fruit. But this is just an opinion and we will see what happens after and during lucci vs luffy.
However Croc >= Lucci, Enel >> Lucci.
Also only PURE water does not conduct electricity. With sufficent impurities in the substance this can be anything except H2O such as salt and it becomes a conductor.
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chibi zoro:
Don't tell me not to post when we've all been going off topic for a few pages or so.Please cite instances where I have been a dick to anyone else who posted (either indirectly/directly) before asying stuff like that first. As far as I know, all I have been posting were "that's ridiculous", "would you want that" and "why can't you accept that as an option", "i think that's wrong". There's no personal attack whatsoever, and I have not called anyone or claimed that anyone had a weaker opinion than I have. I don't think your insults are justified, but hey, it's your opinion.
Okay before I go on with my points, I'll post the implied (ie: Pro-Enel) side's manner of thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong.
1. Enel vs. Luffy - Luffy would have lost if he wasn't rubber. Luffy has better fighting ability, but Enel has cheap-ass DF. Still, in the OP world, it seems that even if rubber is being superheated to the voltage of 30M and above, it's nothing to Luffy's rubber body, so Luffy wins.
2. Enel vs. Croc - Enel wins since sand is a conductor.
3. Enel vs. Ace - Enel wins because fire is a conductor.
4. Enel vs. Aokiji - I dunno really what ice's properties are but I assume it does (however poor it is), so Enel should win.
5. Enel vs. Whitebeard/Mihawk/Blackbeard/Shanks/Beckham - Minus seastone or a more powerful logia fruit, I can't see how they can win against Enel. Enel wins. I can't accept the possibility of them just being so superhuman that they can withstand/hurt Enel with raw power. They have to have either a seastone weapon, a DF or another deus ex machina device to negate Enel's DF.
6. Enel vs. Lucci - Enel wins unless Lucci has seastone/rubber weapon, but even that is debatable.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is this how you guys think? I bolded # 5 because I think it's important to my point later on.
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It is entirely legitimate to ask how Whitebeard could possibly defeat Enel, unless you think that One Piece works in a dbz power level fashion. If Whitebeard is a strictly physical fighter, then it is hard to see how he could win in a fight against Enel. I suppose "strongest man in the world" is a translation of itiban tuyoi, in which case it is ambiguous whether the strength refers purely to physical strength or to overall fighting ability. Methinks the latter, but I'm not certain. Still, who knows what would happen in a fight between Whitebeard and Enel? Maybe Whitebeard has some ability that Oda has yet to reveal which would allow him to touch logia figures (the sea water fruit?). Or maybe Whitebeard's own giant stature would at least make him able to withstand massive shocks of lightning, so that he'd be immune to Enel's attacks and any fight between the two would end in a draw or, through the judicious use of seastone/sea wate/rubber, a win for Whitebeard.
This whole post screams Foolishness!!!
First you ignore a direct quote from Luffy about Ener, now you deliberately by pass who ODA himself said "IS THE STRONGEST MAN IN THE WORLD." Do you understand that Whitebeard is the strongest he tied the strongest man EVER in One Piece Gold Roger! This means that Whitebeard is above everything and anyone in the world of One Piece. Including Ener and his logia fruit.
Okay before I go on with my points, I'll post the implied (ie: Pro-Enel) side's manner of thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong.
1. Enel vs. Luffy - Luffy would have lost if he wasn't rubber. Luffy has better fighting ability, but Enel has cheap-ass DF. Still, in the OP world, it seems that even if rubber is being superheated to the voltage of 30M and above, it's nothing to Luffy's rubber body, so Luffy wins.
2. Enel vs. Croc - Enel wins since sand is a conductor.
3. Enel vs. Ace - Enel wins because fire is a conductor.
4. Enel vs. Aokiji - I dunno really what ice's properties are but I assume it does (however poor it is), so Enel should win.
5. Enel vs. Whitebeard/Mihawk/Blackbeard/Shanks/Beckham - Minus seastone or a more powerful logia fruit, I can't see how they can win against Enel. Enel wins. I can't accept the possibility of them just being so superhuman that they can withstand/hurt Enel with raw power. They have to have either a seastone weapon, a DF or another deus ex machina device to negate Enel's DF.
6. Enel vs. Lucci - Enel wins unless Lucci has seastone/rubber weapon, but even that is debatable.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is this how you guys think? I bolded # 5 because I think it's important to my point later on.
I completely understand where you are coming from Fanservice!. People here do think that way, they act as if someone like Mihawk who has a WORLD CLASS TITLE making him one of the most powerful characters in One Piece not able to deal with lightning. It is possible to have raw ablities and skills to surpasss the element which is lightning. It is very possible for a Mihawk, Lucci and Shanks to be faster than lightning also much stronger. Hell Mihawk without a doubt in my mind can cut lightning easily. Raw abilities can surpass even the elements this is the anime world it is not real life. I would not be surprised if Whitebeard himself was like Superman, he could have the ability to endure anything which makes him stronger than any element. So please people stop acting like it is impossible to surpass lightning or any other element with superhuman skills becasue it is not. Lucci has not even explained how fast his Soru can go, nor has he explained how much his Tekkai can withstand.
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The Daz! this is ver inaccurate. If the logia users are always in there elemental state then how do you explain how Ace and Smoker hit each other when Luffy ran Smoker into Ace?. It was episode 94. With this said logia users have to consciously activate there powers.
Sigh:
I was waiting for this. This is the "comic relief" situation all over again, just like when Nami pummels Sanji or Zoro, or when Usopp/Luffy get beaten by Sanji only to recover in a instant. But you will propably never accept that explanation.
If you want another: Smoker walks around with his Jutte on his back. On this, a seastone is mounted. Luffy smashes into him, driving the Jutte into his back. DF = nullified.
Besides, Praxis and I have already posted the "Sleeping Enel" example.
And fanservice, in my case at least, you're dead on with #5.
Phenomenol, let me build onto Chibi-Zoros (great, BTW) posts, and give you an allegory:
You pick up the Hulk, and place him in the Opverse. He'd quite possible now be one of the worlds strongest people, perhaps even the strongest. But pit him against Enel, and see what happens: This hulking, mountain-throwing brute can't do a thing, without exploiting the only given weaknesses of Logias. Whitebeard no doubt has anti DF-opponent measurements, but his title alone does not make him able to beat Enel!
Same goes for Mihawk. For all his swordsmanship, he needs to match the criterias of hitting a Logia in order to win. He might be able to CLEAVE the elements, but what good would that do? They just reassemble. After all, Zoro cut the steel of mr 1, he didn't magically remove his DF ability.So in conclusion, we don't believe "Raw abilities can surpass even the elements " because so far, nothing indicates that it works that way.
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@The:
Besides, Praxis and I have already posted the "Sleeping Enel" example.
I don't see how this exemple proves Logia users are permanently in their elemental state. They could simply chose to turn into their element while remaining in their human shape during a certain amount of time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but except if Oda said it, I don't see any solid evidence that Logia powers couldn't work on an almost similar basis than Zoan ones: human, half human/half elemental, elemental form, all triggered by the user's will.
For those who think falling asleep would cancel the control they have on their powers, Enel was able to summon lightning even when his heart ceased to beat, so…
And regarding your Smoker/Ace explanation, it doesn't say why Smoker didn't pass through Ace, as the seastone nullified Smoker's power but not Ace's. Also, if Enel or Ace were permanently made of lightning or fire, they'd simply burn or hurt everything and everyone they touch, which is not the case (ex when Enel puts his foot on Zoro's head, Zoro isn't electrified, Ace doesn't set Buggy's ship on fire just by sitting on it etc).
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Phenomenol, let me build onto Chibi-Zoros (great, BTW) posts, and give you an allegory:
You pick up the Hulk, and place him in the Opverse. He'd quite possible now be one of the worlds strongest people, perhaps even the strongest. But pit him against Enel, and see what happens: This hulking, mountain-throwing brute can't do a thing, without exploiting the only given weaknesses of Logias. Whitebeard no doubt has anti DF-opponent measurements, but his title alone does not make him able to beat Enel!
Same goes for Mihawk. For all his swordsmanship, he needs to match the criterias of hitting a Logia in order to win. He might be able to CLEAVE the elements, but what good would that do? They just reassemble. After all, Zoro cut the steel of mr 1, he didn't magically remove his DF ability.Now we have another who ignores a Direct Quote from Oda himself. First of all let me tell you once again that it is stated in the MANGA and ANIME that "Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world." that is the world including Skypiea an everyone in it. Whitebeard himself controls a Logia fruit user. This means that he is above everyone and everything in One Piece including logia users. No where was it stated in the anime or manga that Logia users were the strongest characters in One Piece World! and that the only way to defeat them is seastone and prefered weakness! Seastone was said to be all Devil fruit users weakness. The hulk is not Whitebeard so please do not even use that as an example, it was not a good example either becasue Anime and DC/Marvel comics are completely different. So I ask you, something ODA said is speculation???
So in conclusion, we don't believe "Raw abilities can surpass even the elements " because so far, nothing indicates that it works that way.
So in conclusion you know nothing of the anime universe? especially a Shonen manga. Zoro's sensei stated himself that a "swordsman can cut nothing and also can cut anything all with the same katana." Zoro cutting Mr.1 had to find the "breath" of Mr.1's Steel. Who is too say that later when Zoro masters this (becasue he does not even know how to use it) technique will cut through the breath of an element? for example lightning finding Ener's breath since a swordsman can cut nothing which is Ener's breath and cutting through the lightning thus cutting Ener's breath. It is very possible for raw abilties to surpass elements becasue if it were not true all normal pirates like Shanks, Mihawk and Whitebeard should stop sailing the Grandlines RIGHT NOW becasue they can not surpass logia fruits without seastone or the logia's prefered weakness! (which is boring and stupid)
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I think it's settled. We're all arguing about preference here.
Personally, I prefer zoan/paramecia/non-DF users than the logia ones in the anime. Which is why, I support the "raw abilities can surpass even logia users" than support logia users.
While yes, logia users are really powerful on the onset, there are a lot of inconsistencies in the manga/anime. For example:
1. Zoro's "breath" cutting technique - Considering everything has a "breath", Zoro may be able to cut through the elements, even without the use of a seastone sword. The ambiguity of this technique leads us to doubt its capacity since the author has been very vague about it.
2. Aldrich's point of "if they were made out of fire/lightning permanently/semi-permanently, they should be burning everything they step on".
One could argue that "if they were permanently lightning/fire, shouldn't they burn they dresses if they turn into their elemental state? why does their dress burn when they do that?" if they were to get too nitpicky.
The only way for Oda to be able to explain this phenomenon is if the had their abilities activated instinctively. Which would explain why even Enel (if he was dead) was able to revive himself after Waipa's dial attack.
We ignore this because it's a rather miniscule detail in the story. We let it slip by because even if it's inconsistent with the physics of the fictional world, it would have little bearing and will just make things overcomplicated for us viewers. That being said, I think overanalyzing the "I can't imagine physical attacks hurting logia users" stuff IS overcomplicating stuff. Shingan is an example of this. How can we accept that the human body can harden itself to the frequency of steel and move as fast (or faster than a bullet) to be able to pierce like that? We simply don't analyze that stuff anymore and leave it to deus ex machina.
That being said, should we even try to understand why Blackbeard/Whitebeard/other uber grandline pirates are suppossed to be "beyond Enel"? I think we should just accept it as it is.
3. Luffy's rubber protecting himself from Enel - Rubber (in real life) is a good insulator, but only against light to moderate voltage (from wikipedia…dunno how reliable it is). Light to moderate voltage = One to thousand volts. I have yet to see the outcome of superheating rubber to a million voltage, but I guess it won't be pretty. The author simply states that rubber > lightning here, without regard to how much tolerance Luffy's rubber should take. I personally feel that if it's a million volts we're talking about, Luffy should have been fried, rubber or not, but I leave that to the physicists here to answer.
Another thought that crossed my mind (regarding the point below) would be...if Mihawk was the greatest swordsman (and I dunno, but I remember reading somewhere that his sword was made of seastone), should it be implied that it's virtually impossible to disarm him? What's the use of him being the best swordsman if he could be disarmed by some strong logia user?
Also, to those who said that "OP is not an anime where 1st enemy < 2nd < 3rd...etc, I beg to differ.
Wapol/Foxy were understood to be "filler enemies". Try looking at major enemies and you will see the same pattern (except for Lucci because it's still up for contention).
Arlong
Crocodile
Enel
Lucci - ?What's the basis for this? I think it's simple. Arc length. If they were fighting a stronger opponent, the fights should take longer time to finish.
Personally, I find it boring. It would make logia users virtually unstoppable without seastone or natural weakness. And even if that were the case (ie: the opponent having seastone weapon), you guys will just throw the "Minus seastone it's IMPOSSIBLE for them nonDF users to defeat logias! What if they disarmed their opponent and took away it's seastone weapon?" scenario at us where, we ask ourselves, what's the point of debating with you? But you guys find "raw power/physical strength" boring as well, so...there's nothing to argue about. It's about preference.
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Now we have another who ignores a Direct Quote from Oda himself. First of all let me tell you once again that it is stated in the MANGA and ANIME that "Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world." that is the world including Skypiea an everyone in it. Whitebeard himself controls a Logia fruit user. This means that he is above everyone and everything in One Piece including logia users. No where was it stated in the anime or manga that Logia users were the strongest characters in One Piece World! and that the only way to defeat them is seastone and prefered weakness! Seastone was said to be all Devil fruit users weakness. The hulk is not Whitebeard so please do not even use that as an example, it was not a good example either becasue Anime and DC/Marvel comics are completely different. So I ask you, something ODA said is speculation???
So in conclusion you know nothing of the anime universe? especially a Shonen manga. Zoro's sensei stated himself that a "swordsman can cut nothing and also can cut anything all with the same katana." Zoro cutting Mr.1 had to find the "breath" of Mr.1's Steel. Who is too say that later when Zoro masters this (becasue he does not even know how to use it) technique will cut through the breath of an element? for example lightning finding Ener's breath since a swordsman can cut nothing which is Ener's breath and cutting through the lightning thus cutting Ener's breath. It is very possible for raw abilties to surpass elements becasue if it were not true all normal pirates like Shanks, Mihawk and Whitebeard should stop sailing the Grandlines RIGHT NOW becasue they can not surpass logia fruits without seastone or the logia's prefered weakness! (which is boring and stupid)
Frist of all, where did it stated that Whitebeard can control a Logia? Because he's the strongest? Just because Whitebeard is the "Strongest man in the world" Does not mean he can control a Logia so you just pulling this out of your ass.
I'm sorry, I have to act harsh here Phenomenol but you are making me very angrey and I'm in a brink of reporting you to Oceanizer. Your are baising everything through your POV and you are close-minded with other users. Eneru can beat Lucchi and you are making this arguement a joke so PLEASE stop being ignorent and face the fact.
You think Shanks, Mihawk, Whitebeard can beat Eneru but Eneru can cast Raigoh on them and it's done. Mihawk sword won't kill him, Shanks's "magic eye" can't kill him, we don't know the full power of Whitebeard.
Kimikiri used ax dial on Eneru but it olnly cut the tree behind him. Waiper bazooka Eneru but he dodge it. If Lucchi shigun Eneru, Lucchi would in shock. If Lucchi use storm leg on Eneru, it'll go through him.
Just because someone with logia can't be surpassed dose not mean normal pirates should stop sailing the Grand Line and Logia are to powerful and Whitebeard won't beat him with his huge strenght.
Before I go, I'm going to report you to Oceanizer.
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@joekido:
Before I go, I'm going to report you to Oceanizer.
i can't see any reason for doing that, don't bother mods. he wasn't that harsh on you.
that sounds like "i'm gonna tell my mom!"
[/off topic]
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i can't see any reason for doing that, don't bother mods. he wasn't that harsh on you.
that sounds like "i'm gonna tell my mom!"
[/off topic]
That was not just for me, he was harsh on everyone. Mybe I should'nt type that.
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@joekido:
That was not just for me, he was harsh on everyone. Mybe I should'nt type that.
ok then, not that i care that much…
too much speculation is usually useless and brings hatred. this whole thread is a good example.
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If olny Phenomenol stop putting people down and accept the facts, this thread would've been polluted with arguments. I think I'm done here.
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Maybe you guys both need to cool down.
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Portgas D. Ace, the man whom Luffy has never once beaten in his life, is commander of Whitebeard's second division.
If Logias are truly better than everything else, than the only possible explanation for Ace to be subject to Whitebeard is that Whitebeard must have a Logia fruit as well. And by extension, Gol D. Roger, Whitebeard's equal, must have been a Logia user as well.
Of the five known Logia users:
Smoker: Is extremely powerful physically (I don't know if this counts in the Manga boards, but in the Anime, he utterly crushed Luffy in their meeting at Loguetown's town square).
Ace: Was never defeated by DF wielding Luffy before he even got the Logia.
Ao Kiji: Managed to catch Zoro's sword and Sanji's kick while simultaeneously taking a direct hit from Luffy and not flinching.
Crocodile: Has built an extremely large variety of attacks around his Logia fruit.
Enel: Can twirl his staff a bit.
All of them apparently see the need to develop their fighting prowess above and beyond the inherent abilities the Logia fruit gives them, with the sole exception of Enel whose strongest competition in Skypiea is a guy with a Bazooka and a Reject dial.
Now, I ask you: If Logia users really were inherently better than everything else, why exactly would these Logia fruit users bother with improving physicall prowess in the first place?
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Fanservice, well, maybe it is unfair to pull out dirty laundry. Who wants to go and look through tired old posts? Several of us at least will recall your unfair treatment of ybmc, where you misunderstood his post as asserting the ridiculous opinion that nothing whatsoever could hurt Enel even in with his powers neutralized by seastone/sea water and then piled page upon page of rude language. Even when we corrected you on this point, you persisted in trying to justify yourself instead of just saying, "I see. I was mistaken." Such obstinate "I can't ever admit I'm wrong or compromise" behavior gets very annoying and is very frustrating. Then there was (is?) your whole refusal to anchor speculation in the manga and railing against others who do. Sigh. Such an attitude more than justifies my comments on fanfiction. Or perhaps we need to collect more opinions on Fanservice's past behavior?
With regards to your numbered points, you have to realize that different people have different opinions. I, at least, do not share the opinions regarding Enel as being greater than Croc, Ace, Ao kiji, etc. There is not enough info to decide who would win, but we are free to use whatever sorts of means available to us to speculate. I do think, however, that any purely physical fighter will be unable to touch any of these logia users without exploiting their weakness. So #5 is right on, except that I think some characters (maybe uber giants) could withstand great shocks. Not a regular human, even the greatest swordsman in the world, like Mihawk, however. Through withstanding shocks and/or dodging it is thus possible that physical fighters could come to a draw with Enel or any other logia.
This is not just a disagreement over our preferences. I prefer swordsmen. (Can you guess who my favorite OP character is?) I'm not going to go ignore the rules that Oda's set down in trying to determine who would win in fights, however. So far, nothing leads us to believe that purely physical attacks can hurt logias without first neutralizing their abilities. Perhaps the breath of all things can, but I am suspicious of such an explanation, since these elements can already be cut, doing so just does zero damage on logia users. Zoro's skill was not to magically hurt Das Baz, but to cut through his hard as steel body physically. He listened to the breath to know how to make his sword penetrate.
PureAuthor, indeed, why do logia users bother to train their fighting ability? One reason at least is that they want to do things at times physically and not just freeze/burn/electrify/etc… others. Sometimes, you just want to slap an unruly subordinate across the face or something of that sort. The other thing, of course, is that all logias have some sort of weakness, even aside from seastone/sea water. That alone would make it worthwhile to develop your physical abilities. Don't put all your eggs in the same basket. (It helped Enel a bit, even though he lost in the end.)
I am sure, though, that if somewhere along in the manga Whitebeard and company need to deal with logia users, they will find some way. Given the rules that Oda has set down, however, it will not be in the simplistic purely-physical-shigan-can-hurt-anything fashion that has been proposed. Oda is an awesome storyteller. He has created a world with rules, not an amorphous anything-goes fantasy world. This is not the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or Alice in Wonder Land.
The Daz, I am glad that at least one person got something out of my posts.
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Actually, I think Fanservice and I have reached a sort of agreement. I'll just responds to the points directed at me, then I think I'm done here.
I don't see how this exemple proves Logia users are permanently in their elemental state. They could simply chose to turn into their element while remaining in their human shape during a certain amount of time.
You make some good points, but I believe (this'll sound arrogant) that my theory is correct.
Lets assume that your activation of element while keeping a humanoid shell-theory is correct. Croc is about to fight Luffy, and activates these powers for a set amount of time. However, that would make him unable to interfere physically with anyting until the "duration" ended, and we've seen that this is not the case (his cigar for instance).
You might argue that Logia users can turn selected areas of their body into an element when attack, with Croc turning his belly into sand When Luffy bazookae'd him. However, this would require the user to anticipate every blow and prepare for it, in a mantra-like fashion; meaning that Crocodile should "activate" his power for every single blow from Luffys' gatling.A whole other point about your "activation for a set time theory" is that it'd be lethal for him if Enel overslept.:happy:
correct me if I'm wrong, but except if Oda said it, I don't see any solid evidence that Logia powers couldn't work on an almost similar basis than Zoan ones: human, half human/half elemental, elemental form, all triggered by the user's will.
My point was, that they're Element-human by default, and can choose to go into Elemental. Human has, until now, only been when they're forced. Also, Zoan users doesn't have a true "default" state. And no Oda hasn't given the same scematic-like explanation for Logias as he did with
For those who think falling asleep would cancel the control they have on their powers, Enel was able to summon lightning even when his heart ceased to beat, so…
I think of that scene this way: I see no reason why death should make Luffy any less rubber. By the same thought, Enels body is still electricity, and thusly automatically restarts his heart.
And regarding your Smoker/Ace explanation, it doesn't say why Smoker didn't pass through Ace, as the seastone nullified Smoker's power but not Ace's.
Admittedly, I can't find a truly good explanation for that, except comic relief- the only decent non-theory I've got is that if a large object is hurled at a logia, even if they aren't hurt, they're still dragged backwards.
Also, if Enel or Ace were permanently made of lightning or fire, they'd simply burn or hurt everything and everyone they touch
What I mean with "elemental-human" form is that they can interact with things, but still -instinctively perhaps? - are immune to physical attacks. Not that ace is 200 degrees celsius dressed up as a human.
Now Phenomenol, I'll try one last time:
I believe Whitebeard will win in an Enel vs. Whitebeard battle. But I believe this because I'm dead sure he has a way of countering devil fruit powers, not because of a box saying "strongest man in the world" - hence my Hulk example. Because the title alone doesn't beat a logia; having the right tools for the job - which I'm sure Whitebeard has- does.
Now, for your "breath" argument:
Zoro learned to cleave steel. Mr. 1 is made of steel. When Zoro cuts him, it makes a wound. Zoro didn't bypass Mr. 1's abilities, he is still hard as steel, but he gets a wound he cannot close.
Now, think of this.
Zoro manages to somehow cleave Fire, slicing one flame into two. Zoro fights Ace, and doesn't have his swords merely go through Ace, but somehow split him into two halves. Ace reassembles himself, because even if you cleave fire, the result is still fire.
In other words: Learning to "cut" flames wont turn Ace into flesh and blood. -
The Daz, I believe you're wrong, and that 'Human' is the default form.
When Smoker was unprepared for Luffy's slingshot in Arabasta, he got knocked through several walls, along with Ace. If 'Elemental' of 'elemental/human' was the default setting, they should have dissipated upon Luffy's hit.
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Admittedly that is the weakest point in my theory, but I've given several explanations -at least one for Luffy hitting Smoker (the seastone Jutte).
I still think the best explanation is comic relief; I mean, I can't imagine the same scene with Smoker and Crocodile. -
@The:
I think of that scene this way: I see no reason why death should make Luffy any less rubber. By the same thought, Enels body is still electricity, and thusly automatically restarts his heart.
I'm glad you're talking about that comparison between Luffy and Enel because that's something that makes me believe my theory is correct.
Here's why; we've seen that underwater, Luffy's powers are still active; as you said, it doesn't make him any less rubber, it's just that he can't control his ability anymore. Now, we've also seen that the seastone used by Wiper made Enel vulnerable to physical attacks.
So if lightning was the default form of Enel's body like rubber is for Luffy's, seastone would have just stopped him from moving, but wouldn't have changed anything to the structure of his body, the reject blow would have just went through him without harming him in any way.
My guess is that seastone just prevented Enel from using his powers, making him unable to turn his physical body into lightning, like Luffy was unable to stretch his limbs by himself when he was underwater. Hence the proof that Logia users aren't permanently immune to physical attacks, but must have some kind of control over their powers to turn into that state.
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I was under the impression that while enel was dead, he was still 'conscious' somehow, and that he restarted his own heart with his ability (that is to say, he was still in human form and he was shocking himself, generating electricity, rather than turning into it). That could be wrong but I just got the impression that if they left the seastone on him for a while longer after he died, he wouldn't have been able to restart his own heart (after enough time passes, for one, you can't restart it even with electricity). I just got the impression that they were celebrating too soon, etc.
I agree with Daz about the elemental thing in general, though, with one exception. I don't think they have to consciously 'try' to be in human form, like when Ace falls asleep he doesn't turn into a ball of flame.
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There may be different degrees of logia fruits but so far there isnt any proof on this except for one instance where robin saying something about one of the invincible fruits.
As for smoker vs ace. They are completely neutral to eachohter neither's element or logia ability can tecnically harm the other. Smoke cant extinguish fire as it still contains air, fire cant really burn smoke. So it makes sense that they woul simply crash into eachother. Now for luffy hitting smoker it could have to do with the degree of logianess if this exists of his fruit. Perhaps the more powerful fruits place you completely in that elemental form and you have to decide to be human. When and if we run into another logia enemy I have a feeling that this will all be explained. As so far Oda has shown us counter to logia not always working and even when you have it you still might lose (Croc vs Luffy), absolute natural counter (Luffy vs Enel), and now Zoan vs Paramecium. Slowly Oda is building up what works and doesent work in this world quite possibly by design.
The key issues about logias are as follows
1 When asleep is the power active (for some ease of use qualities the same thing applies whenever you have ghosts or wallpassing abilities in anything that you dont fall through the planet explains why clothes or th ground around them isnt changed)
2 When in contact with seastone does it turn you normal or simply deactivate your use of abilities
3 How does one knock out a logia
4 Does the rock paper scissor rule apply to logias where paper is immune to rock but scissors kill paper.This entire discussion is no longer about Lucci as he is just physical and a great foe for luffy given luffy is physical. It has twisted itself into how powerful are logias and how does one stop them.
Whitebeard having logia's under his command could simply be to loyalty or that he knows how to stop them. Seastone knuckles or something. If you're king of a country are you the most powerful person in the country? No because your subjects follow you. The same could work for whitebeard he might be the strongest man in the world due to loyalty or superhuman stamina or inhuman strength such that he can punch the waves and create a path to the seafloor. Doesent necessaily mean that he is invunerable to attacks.
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I really don't know that the strength of a logia fruit determines the user's default state. From what I've seen in the manga it seems like all Logia's default to their physical form when they've been touched by seastone or emersed in water, rather than their logia form. If this isn't the case I don't think it would have been possible for Zoro to rescue Smoker and we know from the sidestory that when Ace is in the water he is in physical form as well (he'd be kinda screwed even worse if he wasn't, 'poof').
When Enel was touched by seastone he was definitely stuck in physical form as well, he was obviously afraid of the reject dial and he ironically begged for his life, just as he told the strawhats and wiper that all mortal men would do when faced with death. The reject dial actually did damage him and even stop his heart.
One thing to consider though, logias seem to have regenerative qualities. So perhaps when they get hit by someone, they don't automatically change into their element 'before' they get hit.
Perhaps they get hit and then reflexively change into it (this could even be subconscious reflex, like hitting yourself on the knee), then reform without any damage. Ao Kiji kind of demonstrated this when Robin tried to kill him.
Perhaps when they transform into their element and then reform themselves in their human form, they are fully healed or close to fully healed. I think there is some inconsistency in this theory but it's a hard call because Eneru especially demonstrates it. Even if he could restart his own heart, he'd still have a lot of physical damage on him considering the power of the reject dial, yet once he he woke up with his heart beating, he basically had no injuries (at least none that I recall).
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Portgas D. Ace, the man whom Luffy has never once beaten in his life, is commander of Whitebeard's second division.
If Logias are truly better than everything else, than the only possible explanation for Ace to be subject to Whitebeard is that Whitebeard must have a Logia fruit as well. And by extension, Gol D. Roger, Whitebeard's equal, must have been a Logia user as well.
Of the five known Logia users:
Smoker: Is extremely powerful physically (I don't know if this counts in the Manga boards, but in the Anime, he utterly crushed Luffy in their meeting at Loguetown's town square).
Ace: Was never defeated by DF wielding Luffy before he even got the Logia.
Ao Kiji: Managed to catch Zoro's sword and Sanji's kick while simultaeneously taking a direct hit from Luffy and not flinching.
Crocodile: Has built an extremely large variety of attacks around his Logia fruit.
Enel: Can twirl his staff a bit.
All of them apparently see the need to develop their fighting prowess above and beyond the inherent abilities the Logia fruit gives them, with the sole exception of Enel whose strongest competition in Skypiea is a guy with a Bazooka and a Reject dial.
Now, I ask you: If Logia users really were inherently better than everything else, why exactly would these Logia fruit users bother with improving physicall prowess in the first place?
Damn, Enel isn't that weak. Enel seems to have a physically strong body, if he was able to just survive a Reject dial proves he pretty tpugh. Also, he was relatively okay after taking a Gomu gomu no axe, the attack that K.Oed Arlong, though given the area it hit was different.
Honestly, Lucci could probably beat both Crocodile and Enel (separately) as long as he has their weakness on him, otherwise his atacks won't work. Mantra's the only X facter, could it keep up and predict the speed a soru? I mean, gomu gomu no gatling is pretty fast,and Enel caught it. Who knows, they'll never fight anyway.
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Originally posted by joekido the Second
Frist of all, where did it stated that Whitebeard can control a Logia? m sorry, I have to act harsh here Phenomenol but you are making me very angrey and I'm in a brink of reporting you to Oceanizer. Your are baising everything through your POBecause he's the strongest? Just because Whitebeard is the "Strongest man in the world" Does not mean he can control a Logia so you just pulling this out of your ass.
First of all do you know who Whitebeard commands it is Ace and he is a Logia user. Whitebeard controls someone who has fire so explain to me how does that not make him strong?
I'm sorry, I have to act harsh here Phenomenol but you are making me very angrey and I'm in a brink of reporting you to Oceanizer. Your are baising everything through your POV and you are close-minded with other users. Eneru can beat Lucchi and you are making this arguement a joke so PLEASE stop being ignorent and face the fact.
So you are going to report me to Oceanizer just becasue I use facts out of the manga and anime? I am very open to people's statements and I do not sass mods so please do not overexagerrate. I never did say that Lucci can beat Ener nor did I say that Ener can beat Lucci. I specifically said we do not know how strong Lucci's CP9 techniques are, I also stated that it could be a possibility that he can be faster than lightning. I suggest you read my posts and look at the facts that I presented.
You think Shanks, Mihawk, Whitebeard can beat Eneru but Eneru can cast Raigoh on them and it's done. Mihawk sword won't kill him, Shanks's "magic eye" can't kill him, we don't know the full power of Whitebeard.
So this statement right here is a fact huh? I highly doubt that you know what you are talking about even consider the fact that you know nothing of Shanks and Mihawks abilities. How do you know that Ener is even able to hit them with Raigoh? Also here you claim that I ignore facts when you just stated that Whitebeard would get hit by Raigoh and it is over. Let me give you another fact from Oda and it is in the anime and manga "Whitebeard is the strongest Man in the world." I want too kniow why would people Ignore that fact. So I ask you Something Oda said is speculation?
Just because someone with logia can't be surpassed dose not mean normal pirates should stop sailing the Grand Line and Logia are to powerful and Whitebeard won't beat him with his huge strenght.
So where was it stated that Logia can not be surpassed? where was it stated that Logia users are the strongest characters because that title belongs to Whitebeard? Also you keep stating that Whitebeard can not beat Ener because Ener is a Logia fruit user, Yet Oda gave Whitebeard the title of the "strongest."
Before I go, I'm going to report you to Oceanizer.
Uh for what? I have insulted no one I used facts from the manga and anime to back up some of my claims, I have been open to all ideas and posts. It is you who made claims without showing any facts Joekidothesecond, If you report anything to oceanizer you are telling a lie!
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sorry for double post.=
Now Phenomenol, I'll try one last time:
I believe Whitebeard will win in an Enel vs. Whitebeard battle. But I believe this because I'm dead sure he has a way of countering devil fruit powers, not because of a box saying "strongest man in the world" - hence my Hulk example. Because the title alone doesn't beat a logia; having the right tools for the job - which I'm sure Whitebeard has- does.
Thankyou Daz! I am glad that you know that Whitebeard would win in a battle aginst Ener. Now you say tha the has to use something to neutrilize his logia powers not becasue of his own abilities why?
Now, for your "breath" argument:
Zoro learned to cleave steel. Mr. 1 is made of steel. When Zoro cuts him, it makes a wound. Zoro didn't bypass Mr. 1's abilities, he is still hard as steel, but he gets a wound he cannot close.
Now, think of this.
Zoro manages to somehow cleave Fire, slicing one flame into two. Zoro fights Ace, and doesn't have his swords merely go through Ace, but somehow split him into two halves. Ace reassembles himself, because even if you cleave fire, the result is still fire.
In other words: Learning to "cut" flames wont turn Ace into flesh and blood.You are right but remember that "everything has a breath" including the possibility of elements. Now Zoro could cut Ace's fire and also finding the breath of his fire will allow Zoro to cut through Ace's Physical form as well. Zoro even said it himself "To cut nothing is to know that breath." It is possible to cut through the element's breath to get to the physical form. I do not know if you understand where I am coming from? it just seems that this technique is so vauge that it is hard to explain.
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In regards to Logia DF users, i'd like to call reference to Luffy vs. Aokiji fight.
Luffy punched Aokiji when zoro and sanji had just attached him and he didn't turn into ice.
Luffy also kicked him just before he did gomu gomu no storm launching Aojiki into the air.Point: it seems that you can hit Logia users if they don't activate their DF ability.
Chapter 320 and 321 for reference.
this could possibly imply that the logia user must consciously activate the reflex to change. i'm not sure about how Eneru shocked her heart back to consciousness, but it's possible, he was only partially unconscious. don't really know, don't really care, just throwing some info that i don't recall seeing mentioned in the post before :)
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Clearly Crocodile dominated the battles! if it were not for Robin the series would be over. Also the second Fight Luffy had Crocodiles weakness and yet again he still lost. The third fight was nonsense! there should not even be a third fight Crocodile played with Luffy he did not make sure that Luffy was finished off.
Once again it was not what Luffy did to win, but it was what Crcodile did not do!
All this mentioning of water just makes me think of Arlong smacking Croc in the face with water.
Oh, and I really thought Ener called Luffy's punch fast because he was mentally broken. A la mantra no worky suddenly causing ANYTHING to seem fast.
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Originally Posted by Phenomenol
_Clearly Crocodile dominated the battles! if it were not for Robin the series would be over. Also the second Fight Luffy had Crocodiles weakness and yet again he still lost. The third fight was nonsense! there should not even be a third fight Crocodile played with Luffy he did not make sure that Luffy was finished off.Once again it was not what Luffy did to win, but it was what Crcodile did not do!_
What do you mean by the third fight was nonsense? As far as i can remember, Luffy used blood, his own and croc's, to try cancelling out croc's sand power. I don't think croc was playing either. He attempted to use poison to kill Luffy. Croc fought dirty but since this was a pirate's fight, it's alright.
From what I see, the third fight was a test of stamina. Whoever had the will to last till the end won. Apparently, croc lost in this area.
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About Lucci,he can't win Crocodile. Why? Because he couldn't even defeat Mr.1 nuff say. None of his skill can even hurt him that much.
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Oh, and I really thought Ener called Luffy's punch fast because he was mentally broken. A la mantra no worky suddenly causing ANYTHING to seem fast.
See, this is what I meant by the manga/anime being too inconsistent/vague. It was never really said whether "it's too fast!" literally meant that it was too fast, even for the Mantra to detect or it's because of the scenario you stated above. A lot of people have come to a general agreement that it's the latter option.
I think what Phenomenol was saying about Luffy/Croc part III was that….given that in the 2nd fight, Luffy had huge amount of water at his disposal. It's hard to imagine that that amount of blood would enable Luffy to "solidify" Croc and negate his immunity to physical attacks.
With regard to Lucci/Enel, I'll conceed one bit. One Piece has a pattern like this when it comes to arcs:
Lackey - Morgan, Buggy, Albida, Kreig, etc..
MAJOR OPPONENT (Arlong)
Lackey - Wapol, Laboon, the lesser BWs, etc...
MAJOR OPPONENT (Croc)
Lackey - Foxy, etc...
MAJOR OPPONENT (Enel)
Lackey - Lucci/CP9
MAJOR OPPONENT - ?If this pattern turns out to be true, and Lucci ends up to be just a government lackey, then it's likely that he is weaker than Enel (at least, in terms of DFs). In the same sense, Smoker/Ace/Dragon/Aokiji and other stronger opponents appearing in between the arcs with "unfinished fights" shouldn't be taken into account. We're only judging as to what Luffy has accomplished so far.
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I like your point, but it is wrong.
MAJOR OPPONENT (Croc)
Lackey - Bellamy, ect…
MAJOR OPPONENT (Enel)
Lackey - Foxy, ect...
MAJOR OPPONENT (Luchi)That is at least how I see it, like, you forgot Bellamy. :)
I think we also will get a small arc after this, then either the whole freakin' Busters Call, or some shichi bukai, so your theory works more or less perfectly. :P -
I like your point, but it is wrong.
MAJOR OPPONENT (Croc)
Lackey - Bellamy, ect…
MAJOR OPPONENT (Enel)
Lackey - Foxy, ect...
MAJOR OPPONENT (Luchi)That is at least how I see it, like, you forgot Bellamy. :)
I think we also will get a small arc after this, then either the whole freakin' Busters Call, or some shichi bukai, so your theory works more or less perfectly. :PSmall arc and then onto Fish-Man Island and Jenbei.
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@The:
No, I didn't. But Obviously, you haven't read the last few pages. I'd recommend doing that, but I'm still going to take apart your arguments…even if it means repeating myself.
Ok here's my response to your 'Supposed' attempt to tear apart my argument.
@The:
Stop Right there! At this point, everyone in this thread, and most of this forum has agreed that "later villain > earlier villain" is FALSE. Foxy is NOT tougher than Enel, and Wapol was NOT tougher than Arlong! In order to see who will win, one has to actually pit the opponents strenghts against each other, not just say "Lucci is the current villain. Therefore, he Pwnz all!"
When I said that I mean't major arc villians, (like Arlong to Crocodile to Enel to Lucci) Oh and I think Wapol is stronger than Arlong his bounty was 40 million IN THE GRANDLINE. I can see why you said that though, yes Luffy did beat him with ease but that was because of Luffy's increase in strength. Also wouldn't you say Croc was stronger than Arlong and (Not sure bout this one) Enel stronger than Croc.
@The:
No, no no! They don't turn into thunder and sand, they ARE thunder and sand. All the time. Enel and Croc didn't have to make themselves a flicker of electricity or a could of sand to avoid being hit, they could do it while remaining human at the same time.
But they would actually have to concentrate right to avoid being hit, I mean I vaguely remember Zoro getting a hit on Enel and also Rubber is an insulator and doesn't conduct electricity, but I can't see how it would make Luffy able to hit him. I understand water for sand, but I still think Luffy hit him before he could avoid.
@The:
Have you completely forgotten the first blow Luffy landed on Enel? Enel stood still, expecting it to pass through. He saw it coming, and had time to react. But, automatically, it didn't pass through. It was just like when he hit Croc for the first time; It had nothing to do with surprise.
I'm not talking about surprise I'm talking about speed of an attack, I think that if you hit them before they can use their powers then you'd get a direct hit.
@The:
This is the "later villain = Stronger" argument again. It is true that Lucci's propably PHYSICALLY stronger than Crocodile, but that doesn't make him capable of defeating him, unless it was right after he'd taken a bath. No matter how strong Lucci is, he can't just bypass the logia abilities.
And for the record: Luffy never actually beat Crocodile. 1st round: Total defeat. 2nd round: Total defeat, evn knowing Crocs' weakness. Last round: Draw. Luffy would be stone dead had it not been for Robin -again.
Croc was a wayyy tougher challenge than you give him credit for.True what you say about Luffy's fight with Croc, but that was quite some time ago the same can be said for Luffy's fight with Arlong(not as hard) but you know without a doubt now that Luffy would own him. Also Zoro said it himself, he said EVERYONE has gotten stronger.
@The:
Explain how Gear 2 would automatically defeat Crocodile. Actually it'd propably make it worse, as no water would stay on his body.
Again with your theory about not being able to attack a logia fruit user without finding some trick to hit them, also who said no water could stay on his body when in Gear 2.
@The:
Hitting Croc: Wont help.
Being hit: Croc has several ways to do it. I even took Luccis speed into consideration.
Check my scenario again.I checked your scenario thats why I replied and oh when Lucci uses Rankyaku I think he can shoot a lot of them in a short amount of time.
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This'll be the last time I do this…
When I said that I mean't major arc villians, (like Arlong to Crocodile to Enel to Lucci) Oh and I think Wapol is stronger than Arlong his bounty was 40 million IN THE GRANDLINE. I can see why you said that though, yes Luffy did beat him with ease but that was because of Luffy's increase in strength. Also wouldn't you say Croc was stronger than Arlong and (Not sure bout this one) Enel stronger than Croc.
1: Wapol never had a bounty.
2: Foxy wasn't a "major arc villain", and he damn near beat Luffy; and his bounty was only 4 million higher than Arlongs (which was kept artificially low).
And he appeared when Luffy, according to you, were "wayyy stronger".
3: Yes, I'd say Arlong would lose to Croc. But I can't see how Enel would beat Croc, or how Lucci could beat Enel / Croc.The power hierarchy is very complicated. Kuro might beat Foxy, but can't do anything to Buggy, and so on.
But they would actually have to concentrate right to avoid being hit, I mean I vaguely remember Zoro getting a hit on Enel and also Rubber is an insulator and doesn't conduct electricity, but I can't see how it would make Luffy able to hit him. I understand water for sand, but I still think Luffy hit him before he could avoid.
Zoro never landed a single blow /cut on Enel.
And Logias' are immune blows because they pass through them. Hitting Crocodile is the same as hitting a pile of sand; your hand passes between the grains.
When hitting Enel you hit thunder, and the electricity can pass through the object. When rubber isn't a conductor, why should Enel be able to "conduct" through his blows?Note: This was deduced by another AP member. Can't remember who…
I'm not talking about surprise I'm talking about speed of an attack, I think that if you hit them before they can use their powers then you'd get a direct hit.
So you're that Logia users wait until 1 nanosecond before the attack before they "activate" their powers.
Well then, if the speed of the attack is the issue:- Why didn't Crocodile be hit by Gomu Gomu no gatling?
- Why could Luffys blows on Enel -which except the last one, were fairly standard speed - land on him?
- Why didn't Enel get hit by any other attacks 'till Luffy?
True what you say about Luffy's fight with Croc, but that was quite some time ago the same can be said for Luffy's fight with Arlong(not as hard) but you know without a doubt now that Luffy would own him. Also Zoro said it himself, he said EVERYONE has gotten stronger.
Luffy never trains and He hasn't "powered up" until gear 2, which is extremely recent. Sure, with Gear 2 he could take down most of his earlier opponents fairly easily. But until Gear 2's arrival, there was nothing suggesting that Luffy wouldn't fight Crocodile in vol 1 the same way as in vol 23, if he was wet and motivated. Just because Luffy didn't lift a golden ball before Skypea, doesn't mean he couldn't.
And if Luffy'd kept getting stronger since entering the GL, how come his "Bazooka" doesn't send Croc, Enel, and Wiper off in the distace?
Again with your theory about not being able to attack a logia fruit user without finding some trick to hit them, also who said no water could stay on his body when in Gear 2.
Luffy is steaming while in Gear 2. Either inside or outside, he must be damn hot. And try seeing how long you'd stay wet while running around at extreme speeds.
I checked your scenario thats why I replied and oh when Lucci uses Rankyaku I think he can shoot a lot of them in a short amount of time.
What would a lot of Rankyakus do? 100 x nothing is still nothing. It'd be Gomu Gomu no Gatling all over again.
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Lackey - Morgan, Buggy, Albida, Kreig, etc..
MAJOR OPPONENT (Arlong)
Lackey - Wapol, Laboon, the lesser BWs, etc…
MAJOR OPPONENT (Croc)
Lackey - Foxy, etc...
MAJOR OPPONENT (Enel)
Lackey - Lucci/CP9
MAJOR OPPONENT - ?This is false, while your pattern does seem to hold true, you mixed it up.
Foxy came after Enel.
Enel (major)
Foxy (minor)
Lucci (major)
Someone else already made this point, so I'll extend it.
Arcs with lackey opponents are generally nowhere near as long as arcs with major opponents. Alabasta and Skypeia and Water 7 are all massive arcs, with Water 7 taking the title as the longest (well, Skypeia might still be longer).
Beyond that, this is one of the most serious arcs in the series to this point, and Lucci and the cp9 were not introduced in a humorous light. In other words, the lackey villains are in comic relief arcs with serious undertones, this arc is not comic relief.
Events in this arc -
- Ao Kiji almost kills entire crew, Luffy saves them with a loophole.
- Going Merry dies (even if it's not broken apart it can't sail anymore so it's no longer a ship).
- Usopp leaves the crew.
- Robin 'betrays' crew.
- Strawhats are accused of attempting to murder mayor.
- We discover that Robin is giving up her own life to save strawhats.
- Luffy, Zoro, Pauli, and the mayor all almost die at the hands of cp9. Strawhats would have been blamed for everything.
- Strawhats go to save her. FF go to save Franky. Paulie and co come for their own reasons.
- Soddom and Gomorrah die.
- Strawhats are fighting cp9, FF and Shipwrights are presumably fighting marines or setting up a means for escape after the strawhats win.
I really think this arc (not just the villains) is the biggest set of obstacles the strawhats have faced since the start of the series.
When Lucci immediately outmatched Luffy and stabbed him through the stomach, and when he was catching luffy's kicks and when he shiganed him in the neck, did you really have the same reaction to the guy that you had to Buggy? I mean come on.
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People seem to be forgetting the sheer power of lackey villains. Frankly, I think Foxy would have a damn good chance against any other villain we have seen so far, even Logias. A slowed croc wouldn't dry the place up while Foxy dumped him in a barel of water. A slowed Enel would be very, very shiny and very, very vulnerable to whatever Foxy whipped out. The only one in with a chance is Buggy, who could toss part of himself out of the way of the Noro Noro beam.
The point I'm trying to make is that "comic" characters shold not just be tossed aside, nor should "comic" moments. Luccy VS. Enel could go either way. Anybody VS Anybody could go either way, come to think of it.
That said, I'd say the CP9 can't be as tough as the top ranking suichibaki. Because the govt. would probably have just sent CP9 tohandle them rather than recruit them otherwise :P
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Whitebeard having logia's under his command could simply be to loyalty or that he knows how to stop them. Seastone knuckles or something.
What if Whitebeard has eaten some kind of Seastone Devil Fruit?
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People seem to be forgetting the sheer power of lackey villains. Frankly, I think Foxy would have a damn good chance against any other villain we have seen so far, even Logias. A slowed croc wouldn't dry the place up while Foxy dumped him in a barel of water. A slowed Enel would be very, very shiny and very, very vulnerable to whatever Foxy whipped out. The only one in with a chance is Buggy, who could toss part of himself out of the way of the Noro Noro beam.
The point I'm trying to make is that "comic" characters shold not just be tossed aside, nor should "comic" moments. Luccy VS. Enel could go either way. Anybody VS Anybody could go either way, come to think of it.
That said, I'd say the CP9 can't be as tough as the top ranking suichibaki. Because the govt. would probably have just sent CP9 tohandle them rather than recruit them otherwise :P
I fully agree with this post. Oda could write any circumstance to make a fight go either way, like how Smoker was in a seastone cage so he couldn;t fight Crocodile, or how Foxy ended up on his boat, giving him an edge against Luffy.
What if Whitebeard has eaten some kind of Seastone Devil Fruit?
That would be redundant, since seastone weakens devil fruit users. Maybe he might have a seastone technique, but seastone fruit is unlikely, barring some sort of weird plot twist.
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@The:
1. And Logias' are immune blows because they pass through them. Hitting Crocodile is the same as hitting a pile of sand; your hand passes between the grains.
2. When hitting Enel you hit thunder, and the electricity can pass through the object. When rubber isn't a conductor, why should Enel be able to "conduct" through his blows?
3. Luffy is steaming while in Gear 2. Either inside or outside, he must be damn hot. And try seeing how long you'd stay wet while running around at extreme speeds.
4. What would a lot of Rankyakus do (against Croc/Enel)? 100 x nothing is still nothing. It'd be Gomu Gomu no Gatling all over again.
Just a little nitpick.
Where are you basing points # 1 - 3? Real life physics? Or evidences "as suggested by the manga/anime"?
If it were real life physics, Croc was weak to water because water "hardens" his grains and you can hit him, not just the grains of his sand. That being said, during the 2nd fight, it's acceptable to think that Luffy had enough water to splash to Croc and hit him. But during the 3rd fight…blood on his body enabled Luffy to harden Croc and hit him? Please.
How can you allow an "illogical thing" (ie: Luffy vs. Croc 3) to slip in the anime and not allow/reconsider that point # 4 could be possible, or that there is possibly a way to "cut through the elements"? You could say that "well, nothing in the manga suggests otherwise", but I really don't get the double-standard between where we choose to suspend our beliefs in and where we draw the line.
The others:
Thanks for editing me. I haven't re-read the manga as of the late.BTW, can anyone detail Foxy's power? AFAIK, his abilities allowed him to slow down his opponent, right?
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Originally posted by agmaster
All this mentioning of water just makes me think of Arlong smacking Croc in the face with water.
Oh, and I really thought Ener called Luffy's punch fast because he was mentally broken. A la mantra no worky suddenly causing ANYTHING to seem fast.
First of all Arlong does not compare to Crocodile there is a fundamental difference between an average pirate and Shichibukai.
Also Ener said that Luffy's attack was "SO FAST." That means he was in shock his mantra could not read it nor could he dodge the attack, his only option was to defend himself.
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY Zero Chan
What do you mean by the third fight was nonsense? As far as i can remember, Luffy used blood, his own and croc's, to try cancelling out croc's sand power. I don't think croc was playing either. He attempted to use poison to kill Luffy. Croc fought dirty but since this was a pirate's fight, it's alright.
From what I see, the third fight was a test of stamina. Whoever had the will to last till the end won. Apparently, croc lost in this area.
What do I mean that the third fight was nonsense? I meant that there should never have been a third fight. Crocodile sent Luffy too hell twice but for some odd reason Luffy was able to manipulate fate. If Crocodile had finished and made certain that Luffy was defeated there would be no third fight. (In real life like some people claim to use in this forum even if it is anime) So Luffy's victory was not from what Luffy did it was from what Crocodile didn't do!