That's another thing I was wondering for a while.
When Luffy takes out the Pacifista, his haki punch is shown with a sort of electrical discharge aftereffect.
When Sanju kicks the other Pacifista there was no such effect present, so I assumed that was how haki-imbuded punches were going to be shown, but I don't think that effect ever showed up afterwards.
what about this? (bottom panel)
!
law did that slash vs smoker
As I said, I assume that they were hardened. If I try to understand a point (in this case: Caesar took all those hits and isn't down!) I try to see it with the eyes of someone who maybe just wants to see it that way.
So even if all those attacks were hardened (we don't know) it's still nothing special to soak them like Caesar did, when we take into conideration that all were standard moves (no Red Hawk, no Elephant Gatling, not even a Bazooka).
ahh my good sir, here in lies the problem. it is a BIG THING if those gear 2 were hardened to soak them. let us not forget the pacifistas that pre time skip were giving the supernovas problem and even the strawhat crew problems, but after the time skip was one shotted. for someone to soak that same attack that a pacifista took and got destroyed to me is a BIG THING. now, if u still see it differently thats fine as u are entitled to ur own opinion, but i urge u to reconsider and investigate a bit more.
Spandam never took attacks from someone this strong, did he? Robin bitchslapped him, can't remember anything else to be honest. And what is more important, he spent the weeks/months after in hospital and couldn't even answer the Den Den mushi.
Read it again.Shooting from Usopp,punch from Franky,100 slaps from Robin and elephant smashing his body.
After all this he was still jumping around.Only when Robin uses her strongest clutch,he get unconscious.
Which means that Robin is pretty weak,because with all her rage she can't kill even Spandam,who even took all this damage before that.
Or Spandam is hidden tekkai master.
I don´t know where you got the information for the bounties from but i can not agree wit any of the points:
1.) I don´t even remember Luffy comparing Hodi to anyone, i could be wrong but i do not think that this even happened
I could have sworn that Luffy compared him using bounty at one point, but I can't find it anymore. I remember it because it felt really weird and out of place, for Luffy to make such a DBZ power counter statement. It's well over a year now, maybe it was a weird translation that got fixed meanwhile (mangarule doesn't cover FI, unfortunately). If this is really the case I'm actually relieved.
2.) CC expected the Yeti Brothers to take care of all the SHs (Law was not even their target), later on he only said that a guy with 400 mil ismaybe too much for them to handle
He said Law and Luffy were too much for them
!
Edit: Nevermind, so yeah, he measured them by bounty?
3.) Monet´s statement is actually the perfect example that the bounties are not a good indication for strength since she immediately understood that the bounties are not accurate
I don't say that it was 100% accurate, but she could judge from the bounty that she isn't a match for Zoro and Luffy. She outright states it against Luffy (despite knowing not much about him) and she is actually surprised that she could hold her ground against Zoro. Even if she expected a way higher bounty, the point stands that she used it correctly to measure her inferiority.
CC having such a high bounty is also easily explained, the guy has a Logia (one of the dangerous ones) which is pretty much invincible in the first half of the GL + he has high class information about the WG, especially their science department + he caused a massive explosion and killed many people while he also endangered the genius of the WG, Vegapunk. Another example for inaccurate bounty would be Caribou, normally you expect him to put up a fight against guys with 330 mil or 400 mil bounty but we all saw how that went.
I don't doubt that many factors play into his bounty, but we don't know by how much it actually affects it. Robin for example has a bounty of 80 million, yet she has knowledge that could destroy the world and she is regarded as "the light of the revolution". Yet any supernova easily surpasses her. I find it weird, but it tells me that actual strength has way more impact on the bounty than knowledge. You are completely right that Caesar's ability is insanely dangerous, but if his defense would be so weak that every Marine Captain (like Tashigi) could K.O. him he wouldn't be worthy of this bounty. Maybe it's just me, but I think the bounty also reflects how difficult it is to catch the wanted criminal.
As for Caribou, yeah his bounty doesn't necessarily back up his power, but mind that we are talking about a different level here. Jinbe said that it is insanely difficult to surpass the 300 million mark, which in turn tells me that from this point on, people just don't kiss the floor with a few attacks. Matter of interpretation maybe, but that's just how I see it.
So it is safe to assume that CC´s ability to take that much hits from Luffy is due to lack of antagonists for this arc
That's a good point, I always had the feeling that there weren't enough antagonists to keep "the good guys" occupied.
As for the Spandam argument, probably again up to interpretation, but I regard even the weakest of Luffy's punches as A LOT stronger than Funkfreed landing or Spandam or any of Usopp/Robin's attacks pre TS.
Luffy compared Hody's toughness with a 200 million pirate (this alone basically confirms it)
He compared him to a 100 million pirate. I'm sure about that since I clearly remember the discussion Aohige and brennen had because of it.
Concerning the chapter a few quick thoughts:
All in all it was a satisfying chapter with some truly unforeseen twists.
He compared him to a 100 million pirate. I'm sure about that since I clearly remember the discussion Aohige and brennen had because of it.
Okay, I love you. Now I remember where that 200 million came from, I mixed it with Caribou's 2 Million bounty mistake.
Can you recall in which chapter the 100 million thing happened?
Okay, I love you. Now I remember where that 200 million came from, I mixed it with Caribou's 2 Million bounty mistake.
Can you recall in which chapter the 100 million thing happened?
Sure. It was 645 and as usual mangareader had some crappy mistranslation going so I checked the respective spoiler thread. Here you go. Translated by the blue one himself. What you're looking for should be the following quote.
Hody: My teeth aren't just for show…. I know it must hurt you, Straw Hat!!
Luffy: Your toughness is equal to over-100 milllion berry heads...
Sure. It was 645 and as usual mangareader had some crappy mistranslation going so I checked the respective spoiler thread. Here you go. Translated by the blue one himself. What you're looking for should be the following quote.
Awesome, thank you.
I checked mangareader (the only source available) but I wasn't sure if it was indeed this panel or if I'm imagining things.
!
Yep that's the one. As usual they're far from getting it right.
So, he's basically saying that Hody has the strength of a Supernova, which was probably accurate.
So, he's basically saying that Hody has the strength of a Supernova, which was probably accurate.
Check out the chapter thread for more details. It happened last year so I imagine you missed it according to your join date. Anyway, that's all about it from my side since I don't intend to revive that topic (led to some ugly things when it was first brought up; really no need to repeat that :|).
Why are you saying there's no mangarule version? They have volume releases up to the point where Law says to the shs he has a plan to take down a yonkou (ending of v67).
This part was translated as "He's a crazy tough one, all right…" which would be more in line of Luffy's character than a bounty statement (which btw he has no basis off, when did he fight 100million bounties to make such comparisons)
I thought they weren't translated by CCC, but I will look into it. Thank you.
I agree that the bounty statement is weird, but Aohige isn't anyone and if he says so…
From my limited understanding of Japanese, my guess is that the translation really means hundredS of millions. As in, some number 100 million or higher. Like the value of the supernova when they were introduced.
And really, I don't understand the concern about durability. Durability shows up in the weirdest places in OP in order to suit the story, and it's always been that way. Spandam being smashed by an elephant is a prime example. And you could include cases like Usopp being hit in the face by Mr 4's bat and still fighting, or Wiper taking 3 backlash shots of a reject dial when only 1 should have been required to kill him. Hell, after Zoro took all of Luffy's damage on Thriller Bark (after already being in a state where he could barely move), he was still conscious and speaking. He didn't pass out until later. And that's the closest to death we've likely seen anyone get to without actually dying.
What it really comes down to is that we've seen Caesar act like an asshole for an entire arc now, so for reader satisfaction he's getting whipped over several panels and chapters rather than blowing it all on a single one.
Yeah, it's kind of pointless to argue over durability after Pell, Usopp, Wiper, Igaram, Spandam, Hogback…
If anyone's interested the line is this:
タフさは億超えだな…
Literal translation would be: His toughness is over 100 million. So I'm with Aohige for the bounty statement.
I think Law is at a disadvantage against logias who can change their body shape. He had more trouble with Smoker than he did Vergo and only beat Smoker because he could go inside of Smoker without being near him and remove his heart. The more I think about it the slash apart from cutting down Vergo was not as impressive as his control over his room which has to be big enough to encompass the entire facility. I have a feeling his slash strength is as (not to say it doesn't matter) important as one might think and he can cut anything easily if it fits into his room.
#45lyfer
Well, I do think there is a difference between comic relief, heroic plot-armor and actual fights.
If I read a chapter called "Luffy vs. Master" I expect a real clash between dangerous enemies, as well as a demonstration of their strength (and durability is part of that). Of course durability was always bent to suit the plot, but also to show how strong someone is.
Vergo is the best example, I mean it's his thing. If Oda didn't hype his toughness through Sanji, the one-shot this chapter would have been a lot less impressive.
So while I think that CC taking those hits is appropriate, I can see why some argue about it (or are not satisfied with it, whatever).
I think Law is at a disadvantage against logias who can change their body shape. He had more trouble with Smoker than he did Vergo and only beat Smoker because he could go inside of Smoker without being near him and remove his heart. The more I think about it the slash apart from cutting down Vergo was not as impressive as his control over his room which has to be big enough to encompass the entire facility. I have a feeling his slash strength is as (not to say it doesn't matter) important as one might think and he can cut anything easily if it fits into his room.
I think people with more exotic DF like Nico Robin would do quite decently as well. Maybe that Marine who could turn his body into dozens of balls and so on. Generally people who have an ability to manipulate their own body in some special way. Oh maybe Perona as well. I wonder if he can influence her ghost form
I think people with more exotic DF like Nico Robin would do quite decently as well. Maybe that Marine who could turn his body into dozens of balls and so on. Generally people who have an ability to manipulate their own body in some special way. Oh maybe Perona as well. I wonder if he can influence her ghost form
I think you're exactly right. I still found the attack kind of hax because he did so much damage in one blow, Luffy took many blows to do a comparable amount of damage on the arc. But I guess I have to remember the strength of his attack wasn't cutting the lab it was the fact he cut Vergo and his Room made so the entire mountain was cut.
Speaking of Law's cut, everyone inside the lab is dead right. I mean, I know Law's cuts don't hurt, but he sliced through the entire lab. That's more than just Vergo that got cut, and thanks to that cut Shinokuni should be killing the rest of the Lab's inhabitants very soon.
So thanks Law, You just killed them all.
=D
when luffy destroys an opponent fast,….they say its a worthless villain.
when the enemy can withstand many attacks,....luffy is worthless.
these guys.
Jesus Christ, how can "your toughness is over 100 million" become "i am a million times tougher than that". Honestly, there is no logic behind this whatsoever, no wonder that i did not remember any statement of Luffy regarding a possible bounty for Hody, i have never read it before.
Wrong. Defeating Vergo is a thing that would never count as returning the favor, since it was something that Smoker already wanted to do because of Vergo's doing, not because of aiding Law.
If you owe something to someone, yo have to Do something exlusively to help him in order to pay the debt. You can end up doing something that ends up helping (As something collateral) the person you must return the favor, but since you would have done that thing even if you didnt have to pay back your debt, that doesnt count as returning the favor in my book. I think because of this Smoker chose to retrieve Law's heart from Vergo and let him finish him off: That way, he really got out of his way to save him and pay his debt.
Your book and Law's book aren't the same book. Law could have very well counted Smoker defeating Vergo as repayment (if it had happened).
who cares about hody?
I rather know if arlong is in impel down or on an randon prison on the grand line.
Law could have very well counted Smoker defeating Vergo as repayment (if it had happened).
He obviously would have. Smoked payed his debt because he saved Law's life. Whether it's beating Vergo or getting Law's heart back so that Law can beat Vergo the result and reason is the same: if not for Smoker, Law would have been killed by Vergo.
Anyhow, the durability discussion. I just figure by this point that since Caesar is a guy who spends all his time figuring out ways to kill and horribly torture people, and clearly enjoys doing the job himself to anyone he comes across, he's been training himself up a good bit in terms of fighting. I mean, he doesn't have all these swords and beams and what else for nothing. He's a pretty old and experienced fellow so he's had enough time.
Does it make perfect sense that he makes Arabasta Crocodile look like wet paper even with that? Probably not. But whatever's left is accounted for by his Spandam-like quality to keep trucking on pure evil bastardry and, if you will, "plot".
Also, I think the Hody line is Luffy saying that Hody is as tough as Luffy expects his fellow over-100 million rivals to be. We know that he only managed to keep going that long because of Energy Steroids, but I don't think Luffy had any idea.
Your book and Law's book aren't the same book. Law could have very well counted Smoker defeating Vergo as repayment (if it had happened).
Law could have counted it as repayment, yes, but would have Smoker counted it?? He is the one that matters here, and I see why he (Smoker) doesnt think that defeating Vergo will serve as paying his debt, since he himself wanted to defeat Vergo, not as a favor to Law. So he sees going out of his way and retunrning Law his heart as the only way to pay his debt.
Anyhow, the durability discussion. I just figure by this point that since Caesar is a guy who spends all his time figuring out ways to kill and horribly torture people, and clearly enjoys doing the job himself to anyone he comes across, he's been training himself up a good bit in terms of fighting. I mean, he doesn't have all these swords and beams and what else for nothing. He's a pretty old and experienced fellow so he's had enough time.
That means he have good control over his logia. But tanking has nothing to do with logia. Heck it's even the opposite. But since like you say it's for the plot I don't care that much.
Well, I do think there is a difference between comic relief, heroic plot-armor and actual fights.
If I read a chapter called "Luffy vs. Master" I expect a real clash between dangerous enemies, as well as a demonstration of their strength (and durability is part of that). Of course durability was always bent to suit the plot, but also to show how strong someone is.
Vergo is the best example, I mean it's his thing. If Oda didn't hype his toughness through Sanji, the one-shot this chapter would have been a lot less impressive.So while I think that CC taking those hits is appropriate, I can see why some argue about it (or are not satisfied with it, whatever).
The point is that if, from now on, Ceasar doesn't give any further crucial information, or if he doesn't become the key to go to Dress Rosa (in case of some Doflamingo subordinate rescues him), and if he is just beaten in, say 2 more chapter, after say 10 punches more from Luffy, that has technical name: filler scenes. Sooooo unnecesary….
That means he have good control over his logia. But tanking has nothing to do with logia.
Caesar is smart and experienced enough to know that Logia =/= instant-win. He's not Caribou. So he's trained himself to make sure he can keep up when faced with Haki users, which obviously includes being able to take hits. He's not just some scientist, like Law said. In actuality he's a scientist-fighter or else he wouldn't have this enormous arsenal of abilities for the purpose of fighting.
+1 for above post. CC is a good fighter and his attack are pretty damn powerful. Only fruit that I can see countering his would be a wind df or Enel's (when Nami brewed up storm clouds CC started to worry, he had that face)
Caesar is smart and experienced enough to know that Logia =/= instant-win. He's not Caribou. So he's trained himself to make sure he can keep up when faced with Haki users, which obviously includes being able to take hits. He's not just some scientist, like Law said. In actuality he's a scientist-fighter or else he wouldn't have this enormous arsenal of abilities for the purpose of fighting.
Every logia has been weak to punch. Crocodile( Shichi), Ace (WB commander), Ener… everyone one of got fucked because taking isn't something that happens to them that often so they aren't as resistant as someone who have to deal with punch on daily basic. And now a Scientist with bodyguard(Monet) and tellind you how he can't be fight( non-existant island and underground connection) is taking punch that one shot pacifistas. I may not care if it's for plot use. But I don't want to hear it's a normal thing.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
It's by taking hit that you increase your durability.
Caesar is taking Luffy's hits terribly, though. He's getting bashed all over the place. I'm sure you know how hard it can be to KO people in One Piece. If someone is just that determined to keep on being an evil bastard they can hang on surprisingly well, Spandam being the prime example.
Caesar's an experienced New World Scientist-Fighter who is well aware that a Logia isn't a free pass and that you have to raise your other attributes as well not to get made a fool of if you come up against a decent Haki user. It's not so bad if he can take a few punches without fainting. The problem you have is that you think of him as just a scientist. Law warned us against that a good 20 chapters ago.
Law could have counted it as repayment, yes, but would have Smoker counted it?? He is the one that matters here, and I see why he (Smoker) doesnt think that defeating Vergo will serve as paying his debt, since he himself wanted to defeat Vergo, not as a favor to Law. So he sees going out of his way and retunrning Law his heart as the only way to pay his debt.
Law saved Smoker, so in order to repay the debt, Smoker had to save Law somehow. That's how it worked. Smoker's motivation to defeat Vergo didn't matter at all. He just had to do something that would prevent Law from being killed, whether it happened collaterally or not.
So stop bringing this argument to justify Smoker's defeat.
Law saved Smoker, so in order to repay the debt, Smoker had to save Law somehow. That's how it worked. Smoker's motivation to defeat Vergo didn't matter at all. He just had to do something that would prevent Law from being killed, whether it happened collaterally or not.
So stop bringing this argument to justify Smoker's defeat.
This argument is pointless to begin with. Smoker saved Law the moment he stepped in to battle against Vergo and he was defeated while retrieving Law's heart. That said, I seriously don't know how, in all those chapters where we saw Smoker beating Vergo like a pinata on Cinco de Mayo, Smoker had not already taken back Law's heart. His defeat seems like a plot device to make Law seem cooler to me.
=D
Spoiler:
I am Portugas D. Ace, formerly known as Gol D. Ace. Son of Gol D. Roger & Portugas D. Rouge. I am also known as "Gold Ace", aka "The Ace of Spades", aka "Fire Fist Ace", aka
"The Pirate Prince".
=D
@GolD.:
This argument is pointless to begin with. Smoker saved Law the moment he stepped in to battle against Vergo and he was defeated while retrieving Law's heart. That said, I seriously don't know how, in all those chapters where we saw Smoker beating Vergo like a pinata on Cinco de Mayo, Smoker had not already taken back Law's heart. His defeat seems like a plot device to make Law seem cooler to me.
=D
I'm pretty happy with it because that would have made Smoke boy the best out in the G-5.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Caesar's an experienced New World Scientist-Fighter who is well aware that a Logia isn't a free pass and that you have to raise your other attributes as well not to get made a fool of if you come up against a decent Haki user. It's not so bad if he can take a few punches without fainting. The problem you have is that you think of him as just a scientist. Law warned us against that a good 20 chapters ago.
Croc and Ace were NW Fighters and still had problems taking punches. And I'm sure being in a island that can be found and having control over oxgen is way enough reason for not caring about getting attacked.
Croc and Ace were NW Fighters and still had problems taking punches. And I'm sure being in a island that can be found and having control over oxgen is way enough reason for not caring about getting attacked.
Why do you keep bringing that up as if that's just proof enough? What, from two examples you can extrapolate that every other logia is weak to taking hits? What about the admirals, they're far from weak. And I don't think you're giving Ace a whole lot of credit, he was physically strong I'm sure of that. Blackbeard's statement was more along the lines of «it's been a while since you've had to take hits this badly» or something like that, which is a fair point since Blackbeard is no weakling (he had scarred shanks before fighting ace for example).
Finally Crocodile… I'm pretty sure he was too weak for the new world, his back-story hasn't been revealed but that's the vibe I'm getting.
Why do you keep bringing that up as if that's just proof enough? What, from two examples you can extrapolate that every other logia is weak to taking hits? What about the admirals, they're far from weak.
I don't take admiral because they are too strange for anyone to get something serious from them. Ex: Aokiji getting smash to bit by Jozu to later reform himself with little blood.@BartArt:
And I don't think you're giving Ace a whole lot of credit, he was physically strong I'm sure of that. Blackbeard's statement was more along the lines of «it's been a while since you've had to take hits this badly» or something like that, which is a fair point since Blackbeard is no weakling (he had scarred shanks before fighting ace for example).
If we start to change how what people say I think we ain't going anywhere. BB explained how because of their intangibility Logia usually don't take hit and are because of this less resistant. And I don't see why because BB was strong we should consider he have a superb punch@BartArt:
Finally Crocodile… I'm pretty sure he was too weak for the new world, his back-story hasn't been revealed but that's the vibe I'm getting.
He's a Shichibukai. Shichibukai are top tiers. And for what we saw at the war he's still a big shot and have gone to the new world.
Croc and Ace were NW Fighters and still had problems taking punches. And I'm sure being in a island that can be found and having control over oxgen is way enough reason for not caring about getting attacked.
Ace took a bunch from Blackbeard and while he wasn't used to taking punches he noted that Blackbeard's punch could have broken his neck. Blackbeard's punch being strong not Ace's being a logia why Ace had a problem taking the hit (though being a logia didn't help). Also Crocodile wasn't at the time a NW, he probably never had to deal with haki since nobody who had it would bother to mess with him. Meaning Crocodile unlike Ace was probably pretty careless, even so Luffy's punches were strong enough to break through the fucking city streets. Problem again is Crocodile and Ace's DF were nullified completely, CC can still turn to gas to avoid the full brunt of the attack, haki hits the body but it doesn't nullify powers like water does to Croc or BB's DF to Ace. Also CC is in the NW and Law stated he's not just some evil scientist, he implied that he was strong. CC also has several attacks and weapons for fighting so you can't say he's just a scientist who shouldn't be able to fight or take a punch.
I'm pretty happy with it because that would have made Smoke boy the best out in the G-5.
I still think Smoker's the best out in the G-5, even Vergo noticed that he was getting the crap beat out of him by Smoker until Smokey started to fight him in a way that was more advantegous for Vergo. And we now know that Smoker was only doing so and defeated so that he could return Law's heart and pay back his debt.
Finally Crocodile… I'm pretty sure he was too weak for the new world, his back-story hasn't been revealed but that's the vibe I'm getting.
I believe that your out've your mind sir. Crocodile seemed to be the strongest of his generation of ShiChibukai to me.
Also Crocodile wasn't at the time a NW, he probably never had to deal with haki since nobody who had it would bother to mess with him.
Croc had already been to, made a name in, and departed from the New World. Croc fought WhiteBeard! He definately encountered haki. Croc mastered his DF to strengthen himself and eliminate his logia weakness to surprise attacks, and had a one-touch kill technique. The man was to be feared.
Caesar's durability seems normal to me, I mean he's only taken about 5 punches from Luffy in total. Other than Alvida, I can't remember any foe who Luffy faced and was defeated with 5 or less punches. If you all consider CC a tank than what do you all call Moriah? That man took a Nightmare Luffy Gomu Gomu no Storm and still got back up.
=D
Croc came back from the NW with his tail between his legs and and should've had an ear bit off in his fight, he came back to gather power/ancient weapon to make his move, hence the pre-ts croc suggesting to daz bones that he's ready to make another move into the NW, he's matured since he was last there and wants to fuck shit up.
Croc came back from the NW with his tail between his legs and and should've had an ear bit off in his fight, he came back to gather power/ancient weapon to make his move, hence the pre-ts croc suggesting to daz bones that he's ready to make another move into the NW, he's matured since he was last there and wants to fuck shit up.
He was missing a hand and had a huge scar across his face. Is that not enough for U?
Crocodile's thought pattern:
[Croc makes it into the New World]- This place ain't so bad, I don't know what everyones been crying about.
[After WhiteBeard beats him]- Fuck this place, I was better off in Paradise. I'm gonna get me a weapon to beat this old geezer wit and then I'll be back.
[WhiteBeard dies]- Back to the good old New World I go.
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-55664-17/one-piece/chapter-593.html
=D
Spoiler:
I am Portugas D. Ace, formerly known as Gol D. Ace. Son of Gol D. Roger & Portugas D. Rouge. I am also known as "Gold Ace", aka "The Ace of Spades", aka "Fire Fist Ace", aka
"The Pirate Prince".
=D
@GolD.:
He was missing a hand and had a huge scar across his face. Is that not enough for U?
Crocodile's thought pattern:
[Croc makes it into the New World]- This place ain't so bad, I don't know what everyones been crying about.[After WhiteBeard beats him]- Fuck this place, I was better off in Paradise. I'm gonna get me a weapon to beat this old geezer wit and then I'll be back.
[WhiteBeard dies]- Back to the good old New World I go.
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-55664-17/one-piece/chapter-593.html=D
pretty much what i meant, i'm not even that excited to see daz bones or croc come back, i want to see what kind of insane crew he's gotten. would be sick if tamed a SN and forced him to become his left hand (since daz is his right hand and he has a hook on his left wink wink) or vice-versa but you get the point.
Croc and Ace were NW Fighters and still had problems taking punches.
Crocodile was a guy who got spat out by the NW and lost his ambition then hung out lazily at the start of the Grand Line for years.
Ace was not a "durr hur my Logia makes me invincible" type of guy. You're incredibly wrong if you think that. Remember how he fought Jimbei for five days straight? The reason he got so hurt by Blackbeard's punches, was that Blackbeard's punches are just that strong. Ace could easily take a dozen or more of current Luffy's punches.
Your perspective on this and that Caesar is "just a scientist" is why this is a problem for you. He hasn't taken the hits very well and he really hasn't taken that many of them and always had time to recuperate (Jabra went over this earlier in the thread). If Luffy hit him with something closer to full power, he would have been out in a single hit.
Crocodile was a guy who got spat out by the NW and lost his ambition then hung out lazily at the start of the Grand Line for years.
Ace was not a "durr hur my Logia makes me invincible" type of guy. You're incredibly wrong if you think that. Remember how he fought Jimbei for five days straight? The reason he got so hurt by Blackbeard's punches, was that Blackbeard's punches are just that strong. Ace could easily take a dozen or more of current Luffy's punches.
Your perspective on this and that Caesar is "just a scientist" is why this is a problem for you. He hasn't taken the hits very well and he really hasn't taken that many of them and always had time to recuperate (Jabra went over this earlier in the thread). If Luffy hit him with something closer to full power, he would have been out in a single hit.
Everything you say in this post has never been depicted or even indicated in the manga, maybe except your last paragraph
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2548-24/one-piece/chapter-441.html - Ace's basic fighting power is amazing, he isn't too concentrated on his Logia.
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-17410-6/one-piece/chapter-552.html - Ace fought Jimbei for five days.
The rest (Ace was not a Logia idiot, BB's punches are incredibly strong) is merely inference based on the above. You were saying?
Again, nothing suggests what you have been saying in your earlier post. Ace has an amazing, basic fighting power has been mentioned in the manga but neither has been mentioned or indicated that "Blackbeard´s punches are just that strong" nor "Ace could take a dozen of Luffy´s punches" or how Ace exactly fought Jinbe, the burnt down area highly suggests him mainly using his DF while we also do not know how Jinbe countered Ace´s ability.
I rest my case having presented my evidence.
I want to believe too big guy3ds code friend:0404-6254-1866
