Zoro is against the beating of cute, fragile things.
His character figured out.
Zoro is against the beating of cute, fragile things.
His character figured out.
The fact that we are disscussing SEXISM in a MANGA is like discussing BLOOD in a HORROR FILM.
How about the fact that every female character with any importance has huge boobs and a waist you could put a wrist watch around?
Manga also has a tendacy to get quite "rapey" as well. One Piece was an exception until the "Mermaid Princess/Swamp Man" experience.
Why don't we discuss the fact that female StrawHats are and have always been the weakest members of the crew OR how about that Robin and Nami's tits have been out since the time skip regardless of the weather?
I also have to say that Zoro was also proving a point to both Monet and Tashigi that he would cut women if he has to which is also in character .
They both seem to think he was not willing to do it , this whole chapter is to show Tashigi he would if he has to .( for her to grow but it does not happen )
Just look at the flow of the chapter , Monet totally let her guard down with him thinking he won't and then Zoro lines afterwards .
After he cut her down Zoro said are you both happy now which was aim at them both which is another reason why he did not cut her with haki .
Afterwards Tashigi was shock that he cut her but then she finds out he did not KO her and she goes back to saying he won't finish off a woman .
The fact that we are disscussing SEXISM in a MANGA is like discussing BLOOD in a HORROR FILM.
How about the fact that every female character with any importance has huge boobs and a waist you could put a wrist watch around?
Manga also has a tendacy to get quite "rapey" as well. One Piece was an exception until the "Mermaid Princess/Swamp Man" experience.
Why don't we discuss the fact that female StrawHats are and have always been the weakest members of the crew OR how about that Robin and Nami's tits have been out since the time skip regardless of the weather?
Explain to me what boobs have to do with sexism. Sexism is discrimination against gender. How boobs being out fits with that is something I can't connect.
Heck, we've had lots of shirtless man scenes. So it's more of a 'Oda prefers to draw beautiful bodies' than anything else.
But it is not the sexism, but how characterization doesn't match previous stories, that is jarring to me. Again I hope Oda follows up with more Zoro characterization that would shed some light. I wonder if he's had some major character change after 2 years of hanging out with Mihawk. More arrogant perhaps?
A lot of Shonen Jump mangas have been dotted with sexist undertones, and many fail at creating interesting female characters who are not just space fillers. Don't stop them being fun reads though. And One Piece is already a step above in both regards.
But it is not the sexism, but how characterization doesn't match previous stories, that is jarring to me. Again I hope Oda follows up with more Zoro characterization that would shed some light. I wonder if he's had some major character change after 2 years of hanging out with Mihawk. More arrogant perhaps?
A lot of Shonen Jump mangas have been dotted with sexist undertones, and many fail at creating interesting female characters who are not just space fillers. Don't stop them being fun reads though. And One Piece is already a step above in both regards.
What part of Zoro's characterization doesn't match previous stories?
With the exception of the smashing of Miss Monday's head - Which forgive my own sexism, would be hard to notice she was a woman after drinking that much - that can be justified by a question of value ranking. Zoro is somewhat sexist, but before that he is a competitor. He likes to win. So he took on Miss Monday to show her he could win in a strength contest. It was aknowledgement more than anything.
Other than that he has always condemned hurting other female characters. All but Kuina. Because for him Kuina is and will ever be the best swordsman in the world. And the one he'll never get to beat.
It's a poetic sort of story. But as I said, it never gives Zoro any reason to remove all sexism from his character.
And Zoro is not arrogant. Arrogance is when you boast without being able to back it up… If you can, you're just badass.
But it is not the sexism, but how characterization doesn't match previous stories, that is jarring to me. Again I hope Oda follows up with more Zoro characterization that would shed some light. I wonder if he's had some major character change after 2 years of hanging out with Mihawk. More arrogant perhaps?
A lot of Shonen Jump mangas have been dotted with sexist undertones, and many fail at creating interesting female characters who are not just space fillers. Don't stop them being fun reads though. And One Piece is already a step above in both regards.
As my last post said it was in full character if he was trying to prove a point to Tashigi and Monet .
This is a guy that crush Miss monday head to show he was stronger .
@gotta<3OP:
Explain to me what boobs have to do with sexism. Sexism is discrimination against gender. How boobs being out fits with that is something I can't connect.
Heck, we've had lots of shirtless man scenes. So it's more of a 'Oda prefers to draw beautiful bodies' than anything else.
The depiction of women by men has been the subject of debate for centuries now. Barbie Hello!!!!
Let's talk about the dragon now.
As my last post said it was in full character if he was trying to prove a point to Tashigi and Monet .
This is a guy that crush Miss monday head to show he was stronger .
Yeah, I think so too.
The funny part is that he failed to prove the point to Tashigi. I'm pretty sure Monet was 100% certain he would cut her up if he wanted. But Tashigi wasn't hit by the killing intent. So she still insists he wouldn't. And that conflict between the two is fun.
And c'mon, that end page should make everyone wish One Piece was another kind of romance.
@gotta<3OP:
What part of Zoro's characterization doesn't match previous stories?
Zoro had his stupid moments (cutting off his own feet etc.). But he was somewhat level-headed, and place his crew in high priority.
He did not hesitate to take out weaker opponents/ladies who were of threat to the crew before. But now right after he gave a speech of care to Luffy, he hung back as Monet hurt and could have quite possibly killed Chopper and the ladies, and even knowing Monet is tricky, he still held back while fighting her. Why? She wasn't a threat to him, but she was to the others. Why not eliminate her quickly and go aid Nami and co.? He didn't know Sanji was coming. And for all they knew, there could have been another dangerous enemy that Nami and Robin cannot handle just around the corner.
And what would he had done if Tashigi didn't come along? Waste more time with Monet, then knock her out?
This chapter to me felt like Oda's attempt to give Tashigi a fight, and to rebridge the subplot between her and Zoro. But the execution bothers me.
Still, a much more exciting arc than Fishman Island. Very much looking forward to what will happen next.
@gotta<3OP:
Yeah, I think so too.
The funny part is that he failed to prove the point to Tashigi. I'm pretty sure Monet was 100% certain he would cut her up if he wanted. But Tashigi wasn't hit by the killing intent. So she still insists he wouldn't. And that conflict between the two is fun.
And c'mon, that end page should make everyone wish One Piece was another kind of romance.
Sanji line about him having a soft spot is also about Tashigi .
There was no reason what so ever for him to save Tashigi but he did .
Which that line was suppose to show .
And what would he had done if Tashigi didn't come along? Waste more time with Monet, then knock her out?
It's never good when you start using if this or that when it comes to a story .
After Tashigi appeared in the room and made assumptions about Zoro, he may very well be trying to prove a point to her and Monet with his follow up actions. But what was he doing before that?
It came off as being irresponsible, and he was not characterized as irresponsible before.
And a capable man can also be arrogant, in the way he sees himself, and acts and interacts with others. He can have skills and intellect high above all other men, be able to back up all his taunts and boasts, and still be arrogant.
@CCC:
This is obviously aimed at me, given the details, so thanks, really.
I only brought up my personal background and biases (which you are twisting and exaggerating here to personally attack with; I won’t be able to afford a Prius for quite a while) at the point when I realized that by juxtaposing them with those of a man born and raised in Japanese society, the entire issue is damn near resolved, for me, via cultural relativism. Sexism itself is relative, and I can’t very well accuse Oda of being a bad writer for injecting too much abject sexism into his story if it’s the case that he doesn’t even see it that way. Some still might, but that seems like a pointless crusade to me. I dislike what Oda is doing with Zoro as a character, but that’s all in the game of being a reader. It doesn’t have to ruin the experience the way that it would if Oda came out in an interview and said, “It’s true- I hate women and think they’re weak, and I’m going to make a point from now on of making sure that all my strong male characters reflect my views.” Remembering that I’ve been raised as a socially progressive person and what that means to my problems with this chapter was entirely a positive thing that didn’t elicit any antagonism, except from you. Furthermore, with a few outlying exceptions (who post a one-liner and then leave forever) the entire argument thus far has been conducted civilly and without any assholery or your so-called paroxysms from either side.You have an interesting interpretation of the character, and I’d be lying if I said that I wouldn’t be pleased as punch if what you’re proposing proved to be true. Complex, flawed characters are good. I’m just not seeing the complex part of Zoro yet (that he has survivor's guilt is still pure conjecture) and you claiming that you see, know, and understand everything while everyone else is just so goddamn stupid is not helping your case.
Want a peek at your own bias? Here it is:
First of all nothing is aimed at you personally If I wanted that I would have quoted you. I would have been much ruder too, but that is my flaw not yours. I read the thread as whole I don't remember who said what. I came with a general impression and reacted to it, in anger, which I stated in the beginning. Why I got angry should be an interesting subject maybe I hated that I alone seemed to like the chapter? who knows really. The thing is I reacted negatively to one stating where he comes from as point in argument because it seems, to me at least, like "This is how I was raised or how my people do it, thus it is right". This is a profoundly flawed argument. Frankly, it is much worse than any sexism that may or may not be in this manga. That might be why I was ticked off. And frankly, you are not the worse of your camp not by a long shot. Some one kept banging on and on last week. I wanted to scoop my eyes out with a spoon and sling them across the room just to make him stop.
Second I don't claim to see or know everything. Yes a lot of what I said is conjecture I would argue that survivors guilt is not one of those things, I think you could pick far less certain conclusions in there. Nor do I think everyone here is stupid. Otherwise me spending time reading your posts every week would be even more stupid, wouldn't it? I was reacting to people stating this is a shonen manga thus watered down and then demand clarity, which I think is contradictory.
Finally my so called bias. It's not really mine it is yours. A man's face is his essence too. animals faces too. Let me tell you a story. A friend of mine has a vary callous attitude towards death. For example, he would eat in the morgue, he would joke about jumping rope with intestine. It was not an act he was really callous. One day we attend a rhinoplasty, a nose job. Without getting too gross here essentially it involves opening ones face like a car hood. My friend fainted with the first hammer hit. Our faces are who we are. How we perceive our selves and how we communicate. This is not about beauty or gender. Now when you go on trying to show other peoples bias you are only showing your own. That is the crux of the matter. To me at least. The idea of someone or some group knowing what's right or wrong morally and then passing judgement on everyone else. Is irritating at least and at worse it becomes something I'm sure you are NOT which is racist.
But did your friend actually jump ropes with intestines? Was he a medical student?
Just asking because I've had a prof who put half a human head in a paper lunch bag to lug it around.
Also suddenly feeling very sorry for people and animals with facial injuries, and more so for animals who don't have faces.
First of all nothing is aimed at you personally If I wanted that I would have quoted you.
Is irritating at least and at worse it becomes something I'm sure you are NOT which is racist.
It really seemed like you were addressing me personally, given that I'm the only person in the thread who explicitly mentioned California. And the fact is, I never made the argument that you say ticks you off even worse than real sexism (of justifying a judgment based on the perceived superiority of one's environment/upbringing). If you say you weren't specifically addressing me, then I accept that.
As far as the matter of faces, if your point was about faces in general, then why not say that "A human's face is its essence." I understand that point very well (try watching the fx show "Nip/Tuck." God awful drama, but fascinating surgery stuff, including plenty of rhinoplasties) but I personally don't think that that has anything to do with this chapter (as if Zoro had a raging inner debate about where to nick Monet on her body, and why?). By phrasing it as "a woman's face is her essence"… surely you understand how that could be misconstrued, no? Again, if that's not what you meant, then I respectfully accept that too. We have no problem, then. My entire conclusion was precisely about not judging others as if from a morally superior standpoint, because that can only lead to disappointment when the world does not conform. We're on the same page there, despite the fact that we probably still disagree about the complexity of Zoro the character.
And I'm glad you're sure I'm not a racist ;D
My favorite part of the chapter right here.
!
Guys. Guys….Guys. I've got it. Zoro reacted out of character with Robin..Because he wuvs her. There. Issue resolved.
Any rate, there's been some good discussions going on. Although it's funny that when people that just freshly read the chapter the same arguments that were dying down pop up again. Slightly jealous that I can't write well enough to really keep up or well, make a difference :ninja:. Just when I think I've written something good, BAM. A novella appears explaining the issues at hand more than I could.
I sort of wish Oda hadn't been so mysterious with that one line about having things he doesn't like to cut. On the other hand, it generated a lot of discussion. I still firmly believe it's not a matter of Zoro being sexist in the way Tashigi believes it to be, but rather Tashigi also projecting her insecurities onto him simply because he didn't finish her off. I think it may have been even more muddled for her to believe that this pirate is being merciful or lenient towards an opponent for any reason. So even after hearing his reason for not killing her, she seems to twist it to being that it's only she's a woman.
Super late response to whoever was asking for women's opinions on this. I feel I may need to change my user name. Having Baroness in it isn't enough of a clue that I'm female? Been posting for paaaages.
I remember ppl with the avatar not the name ( too complicated) sorry but thanks for the reply…..and ironically only the guys here are being tashigi's all women are cool with the chapter..( whoever replied)
It seems to me that the argument is moving forward. Now we are discussing people jumping rope with intestines:blink:.
Anyway, theres another point I would like to bring into discussion. Here I`m wondering how many G-5 recluits were there with Smoker to begin with. It couldn´t possibly be that many as some remained at their base and it doesn´t sit right to me that only Vergo, Smoker and Yarisugi have navy vessels to travel around. If my memory doesn´t fail me Smoker is the commander of Unit 5 within the G-5 which would mean there are at least another 3 relevant units with their respective commanders within this government facility (If we assume that Yarisugi has one of those positions then there would be only 2 to be known if needed be)
Looking back at PH developments.
A third of the G-5 soldiers accompanying smoker were done by smilie when they were departing from the island on a stolen CC ship. The smile/slime exploded big time to have the job done.
Next, Shinokuni came and another few were erradicated by virtue of inmobilizing powder/ash/venom in the compartment A of the research facility
One room after, the con-Momonosuke dragon attacked them but failed to do any harm.Regretfully that wasn´t the case when Vergo appeared on scene. I´m unaware of how many henchman he took out but there were a couple for sure. (It would have been all if Sanji hadn´t showed up)
And finally Monet in the Biscuit room took a bite from another.
The question remains unanswered.Will there be enough G-5 men to show the threats in each room. I am wishing for one of them to survive and in 50 years time he´ll be like " here sonny let me tell you about the time when I helped the SH pirates in an island called Punk Hazard"
A third of the G-5 soldiers accompanying smoker were done by smilie when they were departing from the island on a stolen CC ship. The smile/slime exploded big time to have the job done.
I'm actually wondering about this. It seems pretty plausible that when all is said and done, the heroes are going to go around rounding up the Pompei-ified G-5 men and give them an antidote or something. But are we really going to have a "I can see their parachutes!" moment with the ones from that explosion? Are they going to come floating up on the shore or be found hiding under some steel plates or something in as annoying a way as Paulie and crew hanging off the edge of Enies Lobby? Probably… yes. Fodder does "die" in OP, but Oda's gone a long way to make us like and sympathize with this particular bunch of fodder, to the point that we kind of have a personal stake in their survival.
But did your friend actually jump ropes with intestines? Was he a medical student?
Just asking because I've had a prof who put half a human head in a paper lunch bag to lug it around.
Also suddenly feeling very sorry for people and animals with facial injuries, and more so for animals who don't have faces.
no God no. We were horrible but not that horrible.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@CCC:
It really seemed like you were addressing me personally, given that I'm the only person in the thread who explicitly mentioned California. And the fact is, I never made the argument that you say ticks you off even worse than real sexism (of justifying a judgment based on the perceived superiority of one's environment/upbringing). If you say you weren't specifically addressing me, then I accept that.
As far as the matter of faces, if your point was about faces in general, then why not say that "A human's face is its essence." I understand that point very well (try watching the fx show "Nip/Tuck." God awful drama, but fascinating surgery stuff, including plenty of rhinoplasties) but I personally don't think that that has anything to do with this chapter (as if Zoro had a raging inner debate about where to nick Monet on her body, and why?). By phrasing it as "a woman's face is her essence"… surely you understand how that could be misconstrued, no? Again, if that's not what you meant, then I respectfully accept that too. We have no problem, then. My entire conclusion was precisely about not judging others as if from a morally superior standpoint, because that can only lead to disappointment when the world does not conform. We're on the same page there, despite the fact that we probably still disagree about the complexity of Zoro the character.
And I'm glad you're sure I'm not a racist ;D
I could argue that Monet's face was a hard target given it was surrounded by Tashigi and thus it was technically a difficult hit. Also I'm not saying Zoro thought about this he just did it. As to Zoro's complexity it is a novel idea to me as well. Feel free to be skeptical. He is conflicted about something though. That's more depth than he ever showed.
My only problem is "not judging others as if from a morally superior standpoint, because that can only lead to disappointment when the world does not conform" the point is not disappointment of the judge it is about whoever is being judged. Think about how angry you got when I stereotyped California in a petty judgmental fashion.
That being said I did learn a new word assholery. I'm in love it's such a beautiful word full of promise. If only I could come up with a sentence to use it. something casual like I'm not trying too hard. That would make my day.
Urouge, I got to say man your debating skills are amazing. I still disagree with you though.
Also we are pretty much going in circles now. These debates were fun and enjoyable but count me out from this moment on. It gets boring when its becomes a cycle. I’ll continue reading though. I just don’t have the skills necessary to completely send my viewpoints across the way I want to, and because I feel this conversation won’t go anywhere. I’ll just make myself look like an idiot, but I’ll see where this takes me one last time.
This might come as an insult but I’ll say it anyways.
You are very well versed in literature. You’re the type of guy that can baffle others with your words; you can say the grass is purple when we all know it’s green and still put up a debate.
I’m not accusing you of doing this entirely, and again I do apologize if you’re insulted. But to a certain degree I feel it is.
I think you’re over analyzing to deeply into something that’s not as complicated as your making it out to be. I’m not saying let’s just call Zoro a sexist or a contradictory character and end the discussion, No! The discussion has been fun and very enjoyable to read.
Many of us have already come to a conclusion and a better understanding through these past few debates. These conclusions may seem different due to our continuous debating but in the end our opinions are pretty much the same. We have discussed this topic so much so that we are speculating and focusing on minuet details which has brought us to our disagreements.
If we were to just question each other about what are our main points precisely, I believe then we would all agree to some of those allegations to a certain extent. It then comes down to personal preference.
Now onto some of your replies.
The logical fallacy in all of this is that you're assuming that he doesn't like to fight women because he perceives them to be weak. That's not stated by him or implied by him in any way, shape, or form. Ever.
You are misunderstanding me. I might have worded it wrong but this is What I mean to say, Zoro is telling Kuina not to complain that she’s a woman who’s bound to become weaker. He is training to beat her and one day when he does his afraid that she will bring out the “am a woman who is bound to lose to men card”. The thought of this pisses Zoro off. This is the foundation that we believed his character was built upon. Zoro himself is telling Kuina to cut this sexist bullshit out. Zoro and “Us readers” believed that zoro had no issues fighting women.
This is how most of us believed his character was like for 687 chapters, Minus the Enel Fiasco which was thought of as a mistake; which apparently wasn’t.
This might come as a surprise to you, but if you recall my older posts in this thread it won't. But I agree, it appears likely that there's at least an element of that within his actions. But rather than throwing my monitor at the wall in disgust, I question why that could be the case. It comes down, quite simply, to the idea that Kuina's death affected him. It's not about being strong or weak or pretty or ugly, nor is it some sort of indictment of the female gender. It's about him simply not enjoying cutting up girls. Gasp. This is actually perfectly normal. What really matters to me is if he's willing to when it comes down to it, and he proved that he is. So let the man be human. It's not even confirmed as his actual reasoning anyway.
This comment of yours seems like your really putting a lot of trust in Oda when we already know how his portrayal of women is in the manga; especially when it comes to fights and abilities. Your speculation of Zoro's action being due to his trauma of Kuina's is just speculation. Zoro's actions are certainly about gender, or to a certain degree maybe about strong and weak. This much is fact.
Also none of us are disgusted to the point of tossing our monitors across the wall but just disappointed. This debate about Zoro being a character and having flaws and all is nice. He is a normal human being and I understand that, it certainly does make movies and drama’s interesting to see when it has these types of qualities in the characters. But this is all Speculation. Do you want to find a reason to believe these things because it might be a good thing for Zoro’s character?? Sure! Go for it, but I don’t think it’s likely because it seems more of a contradiction in Zoro’s character considering his past and who the writer is.
I feel this is a poor development and I’m a bit disappointed.
Think about how angry you got when I stereotyped California in a petty judgmental fashion.
Oh no, I wasn't mad about you stereotyping California. I moved from there before I was old enough to know the difference between liberal/conservative, albeit to another progressive place. I was mad because I thought you were attacking me personally in a thread that has magically avoided that sort of stuff so far. But you weren't, so we're good.
And yes- any pejorative can bloom into many beautiful forms usable in a wide array of situations, if you want it to! Language is a wonderful thing.
@CCC:
And yes- any pejorative can bloom into many beautiful forms usable in a wide array of situations, if you want it to! Language is a wonderful thing.
~Note to self. Never debate against CCC or Urouge!!~
Seriously though am jealous.
I know how you feel Baroness.
I'm pretty disappointed reading this thread…cause I loved this chapter. We get some development between Tashigi and Zoro, FINALLY. Sure, it's that things are exactly the same between them, and that Tashigi still has her complex about sexism. I'm tired, so I'm just gonna say, I love how Zoro proves Tashigi wrong (and I hope they resolve their issues later, or at least start), and puts down a scumbag.
Nothing changes about how I feel about Monet. She's a good villain, but part of that was that she's a drug dealer and child kidnapper. She got what she deserved.
~Note to self. Never debate against CCC or Urouge!!~
Seriously though am jealous as well like Baroness.
Don't sell yourself short, mate.
And don't worry- I'm pretty much done, for a while. I'm practically coughing up blood after this whole thread; so weak is my fragile constitution. Time to settle into bed with a good book for the weekend…
@CCC:
Don't sell yourself short, mate.
And don't worry- I'm pretty much done, for a while. I'm practically coughing up blood after this whole thread; so weak is my fragile constitution. Time to settle into bed with a good book for the weekend…
Or just go into a Hostess bar, that place is completely free of sexism
I'd argue with Urouge and CCC left and right if I didn't always agree with them. Even when they were going back and forth I some how agreed with both of them.
I don't know what you mean about Tashigi not being able to rationalize things? As for smoker He did ask Tashigi not to act as a marine and to follow her own justice in Arabasta. He loathes the dirty politics and cover ups of the Marine brass. He noticed the unnecessary savageness of the Marine Ford war. He suffered loss of rank by refusing orders. He clearly thinks for himself. As to pirates being pirates he was talking about the Shichibukai. And he was right. Even about Luffy he saw him smile at the platform in Logue town just as he was to be executed. This reminded him of the Pirate King. And since then many events proved to him Luffy will be big. I just can't understand why he won't consider the possibility that he is on the wrong side considering the evidence. He will eventually though.
How is Smoker on the wrong side?
He is a marine, they are the good guys.
Now their might be corrupt people in the Marines, but that don't make them evil. Think of real world. Smoker is a detective in the police. He is the good guy, now sure their may be corrupt cops, or corrupt officials, hell even corrupt politicians, but that don't mean that the system is wrong. Smoker when he see's who is corrupt, like any good detective would work to get that corrupt person thrown in jail, just like a pirate or a crook.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@gotta<3OP:
Zoro is against the beating of cute, fragile things.
His character figured out.
Obviously Perona rubbed off on him during the break.
Ha maybe Zoro rubbed off on Perona too, hehehe
I'm glad someone around here is actually willing to argue with me.
That said…I probably have only one more post after this (I was thinking about stopping here, but this is my longest and possibly best work yet, and I'm interested in how you'll answer this). I'm getting worn out, and I don't think either of us is going to yield anytime soon. That said, let me know if you want to keep going. Either way, it's been fun.
! > Assuming it needs to be is missing the point. The point is what IS a mirror image. A lot of the reasons people (Tashigi and many of the fans who choose to believe her) are assuming that Zoro is such a sexist are the very things that are mirrored in the Hyouzou fight. You need to keep the reasoning for comparing the two fights in mind. So with that understanding…
Who cares? It's irrelevant. Even still, it wasn't going to be pretty if Hyouzou changed his target to Nami or even random citizens after Zoro let him run away. Yet he's not getting lambasted for that hypothetical. He also never let Monet leave the room to chase the others down in the first place, but he's getting lambasted on a "well, what if she managed to" hypothetical. It stinks of hypocrisy from the fanbase. I don't even care if people want to be mad at the guy, just be consistent or the sexism finger needs to turn around and look the other direction.
! >! You seem to keep missing my point in that what you think is a mirror image isn't. Posting what started the fights in the first place was to emphasize the fact as to why Zoro should have ended Monet's fight earlier and why for Hyouzou was more lenient, because that was solely just practice for Zoro to get a fight in for exercise with Hyouzou in what he thought could've been an interesting fight, instead of stopping a force that was trying to actively hunt others.
! As for the second part, I've brought up Zoro's line to Hyouzou, he didn't want to fight a person without fighting spirit, ie once he took away his swords, something I feel like he only did to Monet at the very last second. Hyouzou never reached that climatic rise when he cut up his swords, he didn't even have any special attacks.
! Monet, from the very beginning not only had a lot of fighting spirit, but kept actively trying to hunt down his friends.
! If you don't like the hypotheticals, how about just in the last chapter where Monet didn't go after him but go after Nami/Chopper? You've argued that he believes that he knows the crew can defend themselves, but that was a case(s) where Monet on multiple occasions gave Zoro the slip and had the opportunity to attack his friends. If there was ever a reason for Zoro to just stop messing around and end the fight it's that, something not shown with Hyouzou.
! As for hypocrisy, then yea, if people cared enough about Hyouzou and analyzed it to the point they were doing with Monet vs Zoro, they'd probably think it was a jerk move as well (though I admit sexism is a factor and probably be some reason as for "justification"), but since the only people in the Plaza were trained warriors and crew members that weren't shown to be unable to handle Hyouzou vs Monet trying to actively seek out a bunch of helpless kids and a crew that was mentioned to not be able to handle Monet, it's that Monet's case is so much worse when completely ignoring gender.
! And finally, if it was the mirror image, then it's a question as to whether the reasons he didn't cut up Monet and Hyouzou is the same, and I've been arguing it's because she's a woman that Zoro hesitated with Monet, which is why saying gender is an issue is a fair point.
! > Let's not bother beating around the bush and just come out and say what it is that you want to. Zoro hesitated because he didn't want to cut a woman. Is that about right? The perception and implications to support that are certainly there.This might come as a surprise to you, but if you recall my older posts in this thread it won't. But I agree, it appears likely that there's at least an element of that within his actions. But rather than throwing my monitor at the wall in disgust, I question why that could be the case. It comes down, quite simply, to the idea that Kuina's death affected him. It's not about being strong or weak or pretty or ugly, nor is it some sort of indictment of the female gender. It's about him simply not enjoying cutting up girls. Gasp. This is actually perfectly normal. What really matters to me is if he's willing to when it comes down to it, and he proved that he is. So let the man be human. It's not even confirmed as his actual reasoning anyway.
I think the experience was also a factor, personally, but nobody cares about that. I don't argue that it was even the majority of his reasoning anyway, so it's pointless to go in depth about it until someone actually does care.
! >! Yeah, just to be clear, I wasn't trying to tiptoe the issue, I'm just not that great with words if my overly long posts weren't a clue…
! The fact that you're acknowledging that the issue is there isn't my point. My point is that you've been arguing that pointing out that fact is not relevant to what we're arguing, which is that Zoro treated Monet differently because she's a girl. And the relevance of that is argued throughout various parts of this post.
! What I will say here though is that now it's just extremes at work. Personally, despite the lengthy posts and arguments, I wasn't that bothered by Zoro's actions to an extreme. It seemed to irk me more than you, but I don't look down at Zoro completely because of it. I get what you're saying that some people seem extremely blinded by this and are just calling sexism and bashing the character.
! That said, I feel like you and others are at the complete other end of the spectrum. Instead of complete disgust, people are trying extremely hard to complete rationalize Zoro's actions and trying actively to not find any fault with Zoro's actions at all.
! The whole able to cut up girls is something where there's definitely going to be no headway, since this really is just different thoughts on the issue.
! > I want to stop here because I feel like this is important. There is VERY LITTLE "fact" in this chapter. Zoro's psyche is left largely ambiguous at the end of this chapter. There are implications, and we all have our own perceptions. But the truth is that none of us actually KNOW. The fanbase is pushed largely in a certain direction by Tashigi who may have never been right about Zoro in her lifetime. That stinks of red herring to me. These are questions that will get answered in the end, and a lot of people would probably feel foolish except they won't remember what they posted this week anyways.The only things I take at face value are the words of Zoro and Sanji, both of which are still fairly ambiguous in nature. But questioning something like his claim that he was going to cut Monet at the end is simply not giving him the credit he deserves.
! >! Yeah, but ambiguous statements that seem to imply something of a certain nature is still way better than rationalizations that were given no context during the fight at all like Zoro actively handicapping himself. And the fact that it's there, and people recognize that it's there, can be just as good as being explicit about it. I noticed you still didn't have a better alternative either for what Zoro/Sanji were talking about other than women.
! And it's a bit odd that you seem to be pushing for hard facts here when earlier you were going for there's very little fact in the chapter when all your arguments are based on conjecture.
! Here's another hypothetical. Zoro didn't try slicing Monet because he thought he could turn her into a good guy, but realized he couldn't. You see my point with this?
! > I don't like harming girls either. Most guys don't. I don't see it as insulting, rather I see it as normal. This is also Japan that we're talking about, here. It's a more patriarchal society.But the major point here is that not liking to cut girls doesn't equate to thinking less of them. That's a baseless leap to make (hi Tashigi!). I don't like to read certain genres, but that doesn't mean that I think they're in some way inferior. It's personal preference. Zoro also doesn't have any interest in cutting diamond. Does that make diamond somehow inferior? That'd just be silly.
! >! Japan as the patriarchal society is probably a factor. Funny enough, I'm from California and if you read the thread that seems to be a thing about my perceptions.
! But the way I see it. I don't like harming girls, but I don't like harming guys either. I don't go out and harm people. But if someone attacks me or tries to attack someone else, I would probably do what it takes to stop them.
! And even if he doesn't think "less" of girls, the fact that he didn't want to harm a girl affected his way of fighting is irking, even if he doesn't look down on them.
! > Now you're just being ridiculous. How about the fact that Zoro cut Monet? Something Sanji could never do. Don't equate how the two treat females or I'll really begin to think less of you.Simply reach a literary boiling point, however it gets reached. It happens in nearly every fight that isn't interrupted.
! >! Don't take that argument to mean Zoro wouldn't ever cut Monet, you know that I'm not saying that, or at least I would hope so.
! But what I'm asking about is the threshold for Zoro cutting Monet/Kalifa would need to be, and that's just going into way too much hypotheticals. My line of thought was that Zoro seemed to be actively trying to not incapacitate Monet even though he has the opportunity and has no real reason to avoid doing it other than because he doesn't want to or nobody was going to die/get seriously injured at that very second, which can give the opportunity for a counter attack. If I'm not being clear as to why this distinction makes the case comparable to Kalifa vs Sanji, then let me know.
! For the second part, you seem to find a distinction between a literary standpoint and I don't think there's a good storytelling standpoint for not stopping the fight when he could, nor did you provide one.
! > He doesn't answer, that's the thing. Nobody knows what it is for sure, so all we can do is speculate about it. You can't claim to know better than anyone else, nor can I, so we do what we can do dig up hints. And he does have a history of drawing easy fights out longer than they need to be, granted it's not a long one. He did it against Cabaji and Hyouzou, and to a small degree against Braham (I dislike using that example). Most of his fights don't grant him such a luxury. I don't even know why I continue to attempt to argue this because I only ever wanted to mention it as a potential alternative.
! >! Speculation requires proof. By this logic, people are completely justified in the new crewmate thread defending every random character to join the crew, when clearly some make better cases than others.
! Cabaji: he was injured, and that meant something during the battle.
Hyouzou: didn't reach a boiling point, Hyouzou didn't do any special techniques and Zoro just sliced up his swords and called it a day.
! And the fact that you keep bringing up alternatives goes back to that justification argument I brought up before, that people can't just have an opinion without having to justify it, and why I wanted to argue with you. Coming up with rationalizations don't make for a strong argument, I think we've both been guilty of that in this discussion.
! > But you also need to acknowledge that you might not be seeing the situation with the level of clarity that you believe.I notice there's an expectation within the fanbase that Zoro should be like an AI character, robotic and consistent about everything that he does. When, hey, he's supposed to be a human with a few flaws.
! >! People bash on Sanji all the time for having his flaws because they hate them. People don't like Luffy getting stuck in buildings or not taking fights seriously even though it's in character.
! I realize I'm doing this a lot in this post, but if some of the fanbase have to think Zoro is perfect, than another part of the fanbase has to make it so that people like 100% of Zoro's character, which I don't think is necessary.
! > That doesn't assure that he would lose. That might give him a CHANCE to lose.Unless, you know, there's some reason like an emotional hurdle to overcome. One of many possibilities, most likely.
! Actually, this section sums up my arguments pretty nicely.
! To quote Gurren Lagann, if the chances aren't 0%, they might as well be 100%. Yeah, you can argue that he seems to be reckless with Hyouzou for letting him get away even though Hyouzou only showed himself to be a swordsman and Zoro took out his swords, but Monet showed a lot of versatility, and even gave Zoro a couple slips a few times, which is why Monet should've been stopped must earlier than she should've been.
! The reason for doing this is most likely because Zoro didn't want to harm a woman. You can come up with other possibilities, but I think you agree that this is the most prominent reason with actual fact, implicit or otherwise, while the rest is purely conjecture by fans without any context in the chapters during the fight themselves.
! And finally, I find it bothersome because you should make sure your opponent is unable to fight if they're perceived as a threat, and if the main reason is because you don't like harming women, than that's pretty weak.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
That fact is like 99% of the human race's view on hitting woman. Well at least in developed countries. Can't speak for those that have like 0 rights to woman and so on. Don't know why its so hated that Zoro views are like this.
I didn't see this. Yeah, stuff like battering women is a no no, but let's say the equivalent is being shot at, but she's really bad with a gun, is it justified to not stop her?
sooo avoiding the previous wall of texts cause it's 3:30 am, I've been thinking precisely about Zoro's current situation (not sexist related, i promise) and though he's definitely gotten insanely stronger arrogance has been brought up a lot recently in his case. Not quite the same situation as waters 7, but perhaps he has a disagreement with luffy on where they should go (Luffy might be completely uninterested in a place like wano) whereas Zoro could see a lot of interest in going there. Nothing but speculation, but it would be interesting to see if Zoro's arrogance leads him to believe he could take on luffy (a wild animal is never garuanteed to not bite, right?). I think it would be normal for someone of his caliber to assess where he is, though it may not be a fight to the death, it would surely be a shot at the captain's authority, i'd definitely like to see it go down.
@CCC:
Oh no, I wasn't mad about you stereotyping California.
And shouldn't be.
You goddamn surfers have it easy compared to TEXAS.
Hell there should be a medal for stereotyping California. In the shape of a sherif star.
I'm glad someone around here is actually willing to argue with me.
I disagree with you all the time, what are you talking about.
Oh, btw, very-late-gloating about Momo in the dump.
You are misunderstanding me. I might have worded it wrong but this is What I mean to say, Zoro is telling Kuina not to complain that she’s a woman who’s bound to become weaker. He is training to beat her and one day when he does his afraid that she will bring out the “am a woman who is bound to lose to men card”. The thought of this pisses Zoro off. This is the foundation that we believed his character was built upon. Zoro himself is telling Kuina to cut this sexist bullshit out. Zoro and “Us readers” believed that zoro had no issues fighting women.
This is how most of us believed his character was like for 687 chapters, Minus the Enel Fiasco which was thought of as a mistake; which apparently wasn’t.
Where did you come to this conclusion?
Zoro is pissed of that, when/if he ever beats her that she can pull out the woman card. This is specifically aimed at Kuina.
BUT more importantly, he gets the information that woman ARE weaker.
At least, this is how I read it
Loved the chapter. Just want to chime in on the debate, and on One Piece in general
1. Oda is sexist.
He treats male and female characters differently. Shocking, I know.
2. Zoro is sexist.
In the same sense that he too differentiates between boy and girls. A poster alluded to Zoro questioning an opponent's "manliness" in attacking Robin in an earlier arc. But even without the words coming straight from his mouth, it is pretty evident from the way he treats male and female opponents.
3. Zoro is strengthist.
He treats opponents who are weak and strong differently. But this in no way negates his sexism. You can make an argument that Monet being weak is the overriding factor in the Monet battle, but her sex was clearly a component as well.
4. Miss Monday is ugly and does not count.
Or rather not "womanly". Either way, she is not treated as a "woman". If Miss Monday was this flirtatious girl with big breasts with kyun moments, but was equally physically strong via special powers, do you think Zoro would have crushed her face to show his strength? I don't think Oda would have gone with that. Is this hypocritical or sexist? See above. This is also why Monet had those "monster" panels. More on that later.
5. Oda is not that sexist.
He portrays Sanji's chivalry, while as a positive, as something that is beyond the norm. He also clearly meant Tashigi's accusation about Zoro thinking women are weak to be a misunderstanding. In other words, he's not "all women are stupid" sexist, but he is clearly distinguishing gender roles in his work. Oda's view on women is clearly closer to Zoro's than to Sanji's or Luffy's (though even Luffy clearly treats men and women differently, despite being "asexual")
6. There are no consequences for being sexist.
In a course on ethics, if "treat woman nicely" and "protect friends" are two competing values, hypothetical scenarios in which they conflict can be used to find out their relative importance. This is commonly used in Shonen Manga, including One Piece, where the protagonist has to show he values his friends over his body parts or life span (so cliche) or whatnot. In this discussion, people use this to question Zoro's sexism. "If he wasn't sexist, Robin wouldn't have gotten hurt" or "If he wasn't sexist, he wouldn't have wasted so much time here when his friends are in trouble". This leads to the logical conclusion of "Even if there's a 1% chance of saving friends, isn't that more important than some sexist chivalry?"
Fortunately for Oda, this is not real life. There are no consequences to any action in the Manga unless he wants there to be. Therefore, Robin will be just fine, and Zoro would not be just a second too late to save Nami or Usopp from death. Is this a cop-out? Yes. Oda gets to choose when he wants choices to matter. He gets to cop-out He gets to be a hypocrite.
7. Oda is a hypocrite.
What is a real life choice for Oda, on the other hand, is story-telling vs. logical consistency. Sometimes Oda has the monster trio go all "nakama" and take on more than they can chew to protect their friends, and other times Oda will have them put on a smug face and go "I'll leave it to you because I trust you". These are not just cliche, but contradictory cliche. Is it reasonable that the Straw Hats can measure up the situation with 100% certainty? How can Luffy be 100% sure he can leave this particular mini-boss to Nami in this particular situation and ignore her?
It's because Oda is favoring a smoother story-telling over logical consistency. He's favoring giving Sanji personality in the form of some untenable "I will die before I harm a women" philosophy over the obvious logical conclusion that there are scenarios in which this will lead to the death of Nami-swaannn and Robin-chwaann. Fortunately, only self-harm appears as the alternative over hurting woman. Cop-out? Yes.
8. One Piece is a conventional Shonen manga.
Some readers are saying "I expected more from Oda" or "This is Bleach-esque". But this is silly. The matter of fact is that Oda has consistently favored style and flow over detailed consistency in One Piece, resulting in a clear Shonen feel. If you want a Manga in which every actor is carefully time-lined and reviewed for logically coherent actions, then perhaps you should be reading "Hunter X Hunter", "Liar Game", or "Detective Conan". But in reality no one really nit-picks at this or that detail. People are also reasonably lenient towards Shonen cliche's with moral cop-outs such as the tried and true "Beat the bad guy, turn my back, but he tries to stab me forcing me to kill him" that's so over-used in the mainstream. It's this sexist thing that's riling people up and not any other inconsistency.
9. Japan is a different culture.
But that's besides the point. Plenty of Japanese Manga have protagonists cutting girls in half left and right, and plenty (though fewer) Japanese Manga explore gender roles with more nuance. Just as you wouldn't care if Matt Damon goes all sexist on you in his latest film, you probably wouldn't notice if this happened in a Japanese movie. The only thing possibly relevant here is where Oda, whether through his own personal views, that of his editor, or that of his audience is reluctant to have Zoro act in a non-chivalrous manner and how this affects his badass-ness.
10. Consistency is in the eyes of the beholder.
Zoro's views suddenly changed, Zoro's views never changed, his views might have changed in the past two years, his views were effected by the childhood tragedy, blah, blah. Some readers are really stretching to paint Oda as a perfect post-modern God, some are really mad that their previous view of Zoro has been challenged by canon, and some are trying desperately to reconcile the two. But really, does it matter that much what Zoro's prior view on cutting women has been till now? Is this some plot-breaking out-of-character blight on the holy book of One Piece? Maybe Oda did mislead you or maybe he did not, it's a matter of interpretation really. And is this really that vital to his badass-ness or conflicting with his background or motivations? I don't think so (see above), and if Oda thought so, he wouldn't have ended it ambiguously.
10. Oda is being coy.
In contemporary terms, he's trolling. By now you should have realized that this whole thing was unnecessary. He set up this whole debate up in the first place by having it brought up by Tashigi (with a chapter-break cliff hanger no less), he also sets up cliched extenuating circumstances (cop-outs) for Zoro by turning Monet (completely gratuitously) into a cannibalistic monster (so now it's OK to kill her). Then he puts up this straw-man about "willing to cut women at least a little". Then having done all the needed background work, he sets up the dramatic slice-in-half scene cementing Zoro as the One True Badass. But.. JUST KIDDING!
11. I for one, enjoyed the troll very much.
12. For those who disliked the troll, just be thankful the punch line was in the same chapter.
Just imagine the ****storm if he had revealed it next week. =)
P.S. Sure I personally would like One Piece to be "deeper" or "have more depth" or "be more consistent" or "less conventional", and in particular disliked the way he handled my favorite character since the beginning of the series (also the reason I stopped posting here, all the **** hate), but these things, along with exploring ethical questions or cultural norms are really beyond the scope of this work. If you can see past that, then you'll realize that many of the qualities that makes One Piece great is present in this chapter, which is why I liked it.
P.S.S. Back to lurking
Guys. Guys….Guys. I've got it. Zoro reacted out of character with Robin..Because he wuvs her. There. Issue resolved.
Any rate, there's been some good discussions going on. Although it's funny that when people that just freshly read the chapter the same arguments that were dying down pop up again. Slightly jealous that I can't write well enough to really keep up or well, make a difference :ninja:. Just when I think I've written something good, BAM. A novella appears explaining the issues at hand more than I could.
I sort of wish Oda hadn't been so mysterious with that one line about having things he doesn't like to cut. On the other hand, it generated a lot of discussion. I still firmly believe it's not a matter of Zoro being sexist in the way Tashigi believes it to be, but rather Tashigi also projecting her insecurities onto him simply because he didn't finish her off. I think it may have been even more muddled for her to believe that this pirate is being merciful or lenient towards an opponent for any reason. So even after hearing his reason for not killing her, she seems to twist it to being that it's only she's a woman.
Super late response to whoever was asking for women's opinions on this. I feel I may need to change my user name. Having Baroness in it isn't enough of a clue that I'm female? Been posting for paaaages.
I feel you on the jealousy part. It's not so much that I'm jealous, it's just that for me to participate in this, I would pretty much have to read almost every single response in this topic, and that's just not a <post:knowledge gained="">ratio I'm willing to put up with, because it's eventually going to get repetitive. I -want- to, but it would take a considerable chunk of time and I've got stuff that needs to be done, like always. (and it's awesome that you're a woman, I really had no idea).
Really, to participate in debates like this that have been going on for a long time, you pretty much have to take notes about who feels what way, their reasoning, etc. But it really is quite a fantastic chapter discussion, I want to nominate some of the posts here for Post of the Year.
e: I don't know though, this is the best and most conducive to good debate chapter discussion we've had probably since I joined at APForums. I might regret not joining in on it.</post:knowledge>
People seem to be having a problem with Zoro's actions but I think the way I see it is how Sanji put it and that is Zoro, in is heart, is a softy and would rather avoid killing someone if he doesn't have to and Monet wasn't a danger to him so he'll only attack if he is in danger.
Zoro had his stupid moments (cutting off his own feet etc.). But he was somewhat level-headed, and place his crew in high priority.
He did not hesitate to take out weaker opponents/ladies who were of threat to the crew before. But now right after he gave a speech of care to Luffy, he hung back as Monet hurt and could have quite possibly killed Chopper and the ladies, and even knowing Monet is tricky, he still held back while fighting her. Why? She wasn't a threat to him, but she was to the others. Why not eliminate her quickly and go aid Nami and co.? He didn't know Sanji was coming. And for all they knew, there could have been another dangerous enemy that Nami and Robin cannot handle just around the corner.
And what would he had done if Tashigi didn't come along? Waste more time with Monet, then knock her out?
This chapter to me felt like Oda's attempt to give Tashigi a fight, and to rebridge the subplot between her and Zoro. But the execution bothers me.
Still, a much more exciting arc than Fishman Island. Very much looking forward to what will happen next.
Give a concrete exemple of Zoro trashing a woman so he could help anyone. If you can't, all of that is conjecture from your part. And your interpretation of it's character not based in anything concrete…
And don't forget Kenbunshoku. Why do people always forget it. He knew Chopper wouldn't be beaten, that's why he didn't react. He protected the crew flawlessly...
yay,everone is sexist.especially women.
moving on to appreciate the little things,reading ccc's trans it becomes clear that when he cut her cheek,that wasn't a flying slash.he cut her with his sword in contact,as she says"he came at me with the intention to kill". it shows zoro is so fast that he can cut her and get back that quickly.also,she says "he came at me with the intention to kill",meaning she could sense that he's not fooling around despite giving her just a cut.which further strengthens the argument against coc.why does her inability to move start around the same time as her realisation of his "wildness" so to say,or his "intention of cutting".when i look back at motobaro,luffy just stopped him with his hands.he didn't threatenen to beat him to a pulp,or was going to do an attack.robin commented"he intimidated him with his presence".same at fishmen island.his strength was being underestimated by those morons.more precisely,they didn't know his full strength,and were ready to attack him.luffy didn't do anything to show them his strength.then they collapsed.wheras,as i have mentioned above,monet realizes zoro's strength and "intention of cutting".so that was plain fear.the fear you feel at being held gunpoint.
also,(this point i'm not sure about) she probably thougth that running was useless,he was pretty fast.
the post may not be that well-articulated,so sorry for that.
and this is offtopic,but:
! it's pretty clear zoro's breath of all things is haki.all things include inanimate objests too.and "invivsible armour" can't be used to give the allusion of being a 3-headed demon.
also,do you think that zoro is grabbing tashigi's shoulder in the left middle panel of last page,or pointing at her.it's hard to tell.
! @nexusil:
! > Loved the chapter. Just want to chime in on the debate, and on One Piece in general1. Oda is sexist.
He treats male and female characters differently. Shocking, I know.
2. Zoro is sexist.
In the same sense that he too differentiates between boy and girls. A poster alluded to Zoro questioning an opponent's "manliness" in attacking Robin in an earlier arc. But even without the words coming straight from his mouth, it is pretty evident from the way he treats male and female opponents.
3. Zoro is strengthist.
He treats opponents who are weak and strong differently. But this in no way negates his sexism. You can make an argument that Monet being weak is the overriding factor in the Monet battle, but her sex was clearly a component as well.
4. Miss Monday is ugly and does not count.
Or rather not "womanly". Either way, she is not treated as a "woman". If Miss Monday was this flirtatious girl with big breasts with kyun moments, but was equally physically strong via special powers, do you think Zoro would have crushed her face to show his strength? I don't think Oda would have gone with that. Is this hypocritical or sexist? See above. This is also why Monet had those "monster" panels. More on that later.
5. Oda is not that sexist.
He portrays Sanji's chivalry, while as a positive, as something that is beyond the norm. He also clearly meant Tashigi's accusation about Zoro thinking women are weak to be a misunderstanding. In other words, he's not "all women are stupid" sexist, but he is clearly distinguishing gender roles in his work. Oda's view on women is clearly closer to Zoro's than to Sanji's or Luffy's (though even Luffy clearly treats men and women differently, despite being "asexual")
6. There are no consequences for being sexist.
In a course on ethics, if "treat woman nicely" and "protect friends" are two competing values, hypothetical scenarios in which they conflict can be used to find out their relative importance. This is commonly used in Shonen Manga, including One Piece, where the protagonist has to show he values his friends over his body parts or life span (so cliche) or whatnot. In this discussion, people use this to question Zoro's sexism. "If he wasn't sexist, Robin wouldn't have gotten hurt" or "If he wasn't sexist, he wouldn't have wasted so much time here when his friends are in trouble". This leads to the logical conclusion of "Even if there's a 1% chance of saving friends, isn't that more important than some sexist chivalry?"
Fortunately for Oda, this is not real life. There are no consequences to any action in the Manga unless he wants there to be. Therefore, Robin will be just fine, and Zoro would not be just a second too late to save Nami or Usopp from death. Is this a cop-out? Yes. Oda gets to choose when he wants choices to matter. He gets to cop-out He gets to be a hypocrite.
7. Oda is a hypocrite.
What is a real life choice for Oda, on the other hand, is story-telling vs. logical consistency. Sometimes Oda has the monster trio go all "nakama" and take on more than they can chew to protect their friends, and other times Oda will have them put on a smug face and go "I'll leave it to you because I trust you". These are not just cliche, but contradictory cliche. Is it reasonable that the Straw Hats can measure up the situation with 100% certainty? How can Luffy be 100% sure he can leave this particular mini-boss to Nami in this particular situation and ignore her?
It's because Oda is favoring a smoother story-telling over logical consistency. He's favoring giving Sanji personality in the form of some untenable "I will die before I harm a women" philosophy over the obvious logical conclusion that there are scenarios in which this will lead to the death of Nami-swaannn and Robin-chwaann. Fortunately, only self-harm appears as the alternative over hurting woman. Cop-out? Yes.
8. One Piece is a conventional Shonen manga.
Some readers are saying "I expected more from Oda" or "This is Bleach-esque". But this is silly. The matter of fact is that Oda has consistently favored style and flow over detailed consistency in One Piece, resulting in a clear Shonen feel. If you want a Manga in which every actor is carefully time-lined and reviewed for logically coherent actions, then perhaps you should be reading "Hunter X Hunter", "Liar Game", or "Detective Conan". But in reality no one really nit-picks at this or that detail. People are also reasonably lenient towards Shonen cliche's with moral cop-outs such as the tried and true "Beat the bad guy, turn my back, but he tries to stab me forcing me to kill him" that's so over-used in the mainstream. It's this sexist thing that's riling people up and not any other inconsistency.
9. Japan is a different culture.
But that's besides the point. Plenty of Japanese Manga have protagonists cutting girls in half left and right, and plenty (though fewer) Japanese Manga explore gender roles with more nuance. Just as you wouldn't care if Matt Damon goes all sexist on you in his latest film, you probably wouldn't notice if this happened in a Japanese movie. The only thing possibly relevant here is where Oda, whether through his own personal views, that of his editor, or that of his audience is reluctant to have Zoro act in a non-chivalrous manner and how this affects his badass-ness.
10. Consistency is in the eyes of the beholder.
Zoro's views suddenly changed, Zoro's views never changed, his views might have changed in the past two years, his views were effected by the childhood tragedy, blah, blah. Some readers are really stretching to paint Oda as a perfect post-modern God, some are really mad that their previous view of Zoro has been challenged by canon, and some are trying desperately to reconcile the two. But really, does it matter that much what Zoro's prior view on cutting women has been till now? Is this some plot-breaking out-of-character blight on the holy book of One Piece? Maybe Oda did mislead you or maybe he did not, it's a matter of interpretation really. And is this really that vital to his badass-ness or conflicting with his background or motivations? I don't think so (see above), and if Oda thought so, he wouldn't have ended it ambiguously.
10. Oda is being coy.
In contemporary terms, he's trolling. By now you should have realized that this whole thing was unnecessary. He set up this whole debate up in the first place by having it brought up by Tashigi (with a chapter-break cliff hanger no less), he also sets up cliched extenuating circumstances (cop-outs) for Zoro by turning Monet (completely gratuitously) into a cannibalistic monster (so now it's OK to kill her). Then he puts up this straw-man about "willing to cut women at least a little". Then having done all the needed background work, he sets up the dramatic slice-in-half scene cementing Zoro as the One True Badass. But.. JUST KIDDING!
11. I for one, enjoyed the troll very much.
12. For those who disliked the troll, just be thankful the punch line was in the same chapter.
Just imagine the ****storm if he had revealed it next week. =)
P.S. Sure I personally would like One Piece to be "deeper" or "have more depth" or "be more consistent" or "less conventional", and in particular disliked the way he handled my favorite character since the beginning of the series (also the reason I stopped posting here, all the **** hate), but these things, along with exploring ethical questions or cultural norms are really beyond the scope of this work. If you can see past that, then you'll realize that many of the qualities that makes One Piece great is present in this chapter, which is why I liked it.
P.S.S. Back to lurking Best and most summarized post of the thread. Thank you, now I too can go back to lurking.
Great Job.
Edit: @V-die, Zoro is telling Kuina who has a inferioty complex to cut the sexist bullshit. Kuina's views are that she will eventually get weaker because she's a women. Zoro is pissed about this.
…
I agree,some people are looking too much for an answer,that really isn't there.
sooo avoiding the previous wall of texts cause it's 3:30 am, I've been thinking precisely about Zoro's current situation (not sexist related, i promise) and though he's definitely gotten insanely stronger arrogance has been brought up a lot recently in his case. Not quite the same situation as waters 7, but perhaps he has a disagreement with luffy on where they should go (Luffy might be completely uninterested in a place like wano) whereas Zoro could see a lot of interest in going there. Nothing but speculation, but it would be interesting to see if Zoro's arrogance leads him to believe he could take on luffy (a wild animal is never garuanteed to not bite, right?). I think it would be normal for someone of his caliber to assess where he is, though it may not be a fight to the death, it would surely be a shot at the captain's authority, i'd definitely like to see it go down.
That will be interesting for me,because I only consider something a flaw,when the flaw bite the guy in the ass.
But it will be kinda unnecessary drama.But it can work out.
Few notes of explanation.
acting upon generalizations
People form generalizations ans stereotypes inn order so save their brains from overloading. As long as they are aware that generalizations are not 100% representations of reality and are willing to see that someone or something differs from general view and accept it, there is nothing wrong. Problem begins when people are not able to see that the person they newly meet don't correspond with generalization, if they judge person who don't fulfill generalization as bad on that basis or if the generalization hardly correspond with actual state of things (for example generalization that women are weaker than men is not hurtful one, as in fact women are usually physically weaker than men, the hurtful generalization is for example: "women are not as intelligent as men" as this is not true).
gender roles
they are not sexist in themselves as long as both roles are judge equally significant to society and if no one is enforced in any way (psychological pressure included) to fulfill their supposed gender role.
sexism
occurs when one sees one sex as superior to the other, not just superior in one aspect like strength, but generally superior - more valuable to society or favoured by higher beings. Superiority in one aspect can be used to justify general superiority.
Who is exist - almost everyone, it's usually biased towards favouring men over women. At least few thousands years of male domination left deep imprint on our modern culture, leaving us with languages that associate femininity with inferiority and seeing roles traditionally given to women (like taking care of the house) as less valuable socially. However conventionally we only call sexist those who are explicitly sexist and/or refuse the acknowledge error of that way
Note that in different cultures sexism worked and is still working in different ways. For example man beating women without consequences, as he would would if he did it to one of his "peers" (other men), is also sexism. Thats why you got more violence towards women in the manga, than in western media.
imagination
comic media require different kind than written media. In novels you usually have explained characters rations and way of thinking, what you have to imagine is physical world, were plot of novel is taken place, basing on authors descriptions. In comics it's other way around, although we have the scenery before our eyes, all we to judge characters have are their actions and dialogs, and we know people are not always telling truth. So it's only natural that our interpretations of characters are all different. Just as each of us would draw different scenery basing on descriptions from the book. We all possess different world views, experience and anthropological knowledge, each of us have different initial emotions, that influence greatly how we would perceive characters. Unless how we interpret stuff contradict what we read or possible explanations, it's hard to way who of us is wrong or right. Not all interpretations are good, as some are rather stupid and uninteresting, but it's hard to point actual correct interpretation, and frankly it would kill the fun. Personally the deeper and more complex the interpretation, the more it speaks to me. Who we are influence greatly how we see things.
culturocentrism (may overlap with ethnocentrism)
notion, that view of world our cultural grout represents is the best one, and all the other are less valuable if not blatantly stupid. We are all guilty of it (well unless you're a hardcore xenocentrist) , 'cause we were brought up that way, deal with it.
It was never really stated that Zoro doesn't like cutting women, though, now that I think about it. Tashigi just seemed to be assuming that. Maybe Zoro's hard on her because he doesn't see Tashigi 'living up' to Kuina, as they are very similar, and he doesn't like that Tashigi looks and acts like Kuina, even though he holds Kuina in a higher view? Still, Zoro doesn't really strike me as the sexist type, or the type to judge anyone on anything besides strength.
I didn't see this. Yeah, stuff like battering women is a no no, but let's say the equivalent is being shot at, but she's really bad with a gun, is it justified to not stop her?
In that situation yes. But do you really see Monet as a girl holding a gun to Zoro's head?
I see it as more of a 10 year old girl punching a UFC fighter.
Best and most summarized post of the thread. Thank you, now I too can go back to lurking.
Great Job.
Edit: @V-die, Zoro is telling Kuina who has a inferioty complex to cut the sexist bullshit. Kuina's views are that she will eventually get weaker because she's a women. Zoro is pissed about this.
I don't think Kuina has an inferiority complex, she is just sad/(whatever stronger similar words there are) that she will never be able to achieve her dream (being the strongest swordsman) because of her gender.
She was told by her father, that a woman's strengths simply stops growing/slows down substantly while a man's will continue at full speed, till it's not possible anymore that woman can catch up. (paraphrased) [atleast, this is how I understood it]
Yeah, Zoro calls it bullshit. His dream is the same as hers, with the addition to beat her first.
But it's a known fact/consensus (in the OP world) about swordsman that woman reach their limit way sooner than man (according to Kuina's father, a dojo master (or how it's called))
So at some point Zoro will be stronger than Kuina because she is a woman and reached her limit. Not because his hardcore training finally shows fruit, no, because her gender is female.
Of course he is pissed about this.
In that situation yes. But do you really see Monet as a girl holding a gun to Zoro's head?
I see it as more of a 10 year old girl punching a UFC fighter.
I don't agree with this at all. With comments like this, it's no wonder people are complaining that he made Monet weak/useless.
The WG wanted the books burned. The Marines just followed orders.
The problem lies within the WG, not the Marines. Smoker is technically not on the wrong side, considering how antagonistic he is towards the WG, even though he's a Marine himself.
The excuse of following orders doesn't work anymore see the Nuremberg Trials. Or for a modern example Syria. Everyone condemns The Syrian army for killing it's people. No one gives a damn about following orders.
I don't agree with this at all. With comments like this, it's no wonder people are complaining that he made Monet weak/useless.
What do you mean?
Zoro basically scared her by just looking at her this chapter, and made her unable to move. After his attack she was unable to form her body back together. Even when she tries to attack him back you can see its only half her body doing it.
Very much seems like a situation where a UFC fighter looks at a 10 year old with a scary face. That 10 year old would shit their pants.
I only labeled it as a 10 year old girl, cause Zoro prefers to not hit girls if he can, even more than he doesn't like to bother with weaklings. It's been proven again and again in this manga that when Zoro outclasses his opponents he gives them opportunities to leave. They never do, thus he eventually cuts them down, only difference this week is a sexist Tashigi cut in before he could.
I got to thinking last night when I went to bed about why I'm getting so much more involved with this chapter discussion than normal. Typical weeks for me are to review the chapter and then maybe make a couple quick responses after that. This week I find myself not only arguing, but running things through my head even when I'm not. And no, the answer has nothing to do with sexism.
Typical manga fights act to develop the plot primarily, and secondarily they act to develop a character's strength or the illustration of it. That's a formula that works well and it's totally fine. What makes this week special is that the primary reason of the fight this week is to develop a main character, with plot considerations coming second. Through 687 chapters, this is one of the 3 most important to Zoro's character story, and it just happens to be handled as a fight. I think this fact has gotten completely lost behind the veil of sexism. As a result of my perception of Oda's reasoning, I'm completely fascinated, because from a literary standpoint I expect Zoro's story to be a priority behind only Luffy's. But we've gotten a ton of chapters that have developed Luffy's story, and I'm not talking about strength.
Thinking about it from that perspective, this is a piece of a puzzle that Oda has probably been thinking about for 15 years. It's true that Zoro's particular story is heavily rooted in sexism, which is a topic that unfortunately gets a lot of people riled up quite a bit, but that's the way it goes. What I really wish there was more of this week was people who analyzed Zoro's story itself, rather than just the issues surrounding it. I got my initial thoughts about it down in my chapter review, but the posts I responded to after that all basically swept it under the rug in favor of whether or not the sexism issue allowed this to be a good chapter or not, which I find to be a fairly shortsighted view.
I want to thank Enlighten, because he's the first person who's taken a hard, serious look at how this chapter impacts Zoro's story. That's over me, as well, since I've really written precious little to this point about what I feel to be the most important aspect of this chapter, since I simply got myself swept up in the debate. His post gave me reason to pause, step back, and think fresh about this aspect again. And for that, I really am grateful. This will wind up being one of my longest posts in a very long time.
Rather than starting from scratch on this issue, I'm going to use that post as an anchor, which I only had a chance to look at briefly before. So without further ado, @Enlighten…
[hide]@Enlighten:
About Tashigi I personally never liked her personality because she is always complaining about sexism. Because her sense of justice and view of the world is so absolutest. She is like an Akinou waiting to happen if she wasn't a bit kind and guided by a man with a little sense of relativity and nuance, even though smoker can be a bit proud and stubborn himself. these two should have figured out that the SHs are relatively benign by now and concentrated on other threats in an age where pirates are swarming the marines all over the world. But nooo they still want to settle scores from Logue town.
Tashigi is as good a place to start as any, even if it doesn't fit chronologically. I don't think I would compare her to Akainu, because like you allude to, she's not nearly as brutal and uncaring towards her own, but I do understand the comparison of their hardline stances. She's a different type of character that shares his stubbornness. In Alabasta, it seemed like we were getting significant development on that front when she made the decision to help the crew save the country, but that turned out to be fool's gold. In the end, she revealed that her decision was born only from weakness and pained her greatly. From that moment on we were to understand that she's quite stubbornly set in her ways and changing her outlook won't come easy.
I do respect her though, mind you I do not respect Usopp, Nami or Chopper because they are cowards. She is a petite woman small even by comparison to SH's women. So she has a physical handicap. She has a severe inferiority complex which no doubt weakens her haki. Yet she is fearless. As evident by her participation in the War at Marine Ford. And by Chasing Zoro a SH who even before being introduced into the series was known to induce fear among people. As he displayed in this chapter named beast. An apt name for the most terrifying of the SHs.
Considering the similarities between Tashigi and Kuina, I think suggesting that she has a physical handicap is a huge understatement. That handicap is suggested to be a result of gender imbalance, which greatly drives the insecurity that we've seen in both characters. I agree with your haki interpretation, and I appreciate the fact that you mention it in this regard, because it winds up acting as a handicap that can eventually be overcome. If she can overcome her inferiority complex, then it gives her significant potential for growth in strength simply as a result of it. She's so far behind that she needs this sort of hope, even if I don't think she'll ever actually catch up to Zoro.
This girl manged sword skills sophisticated enough to allow her to balance a canon ball on the back of her sword then deflect it.
! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2012/08/06/o/read501f949e77589/img000016.png
Something Mihawke did when first introduced when he deflected bullets. Saying something to the effect of a strong word must have subtlety as well.
! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2011/11/06/o/read4eb6d620bb9da/One_Piece_v06_119.png
So her sword techniques are elegant, she has haki and is Rokushiki user. What more do you want from her?
And this wraps up the rest of her potential in a nutshell. Her two major weaknesses as it comes to her fighting power (her inferiority and her lack of raw power) are supplemented nicely with her strengths to round off her battle prowess. With her inferiority being potentially conquerable by the end of the series, her roadblock comes down to simple raw power. This is appropriate, because it's Koshiro's singular reason for why a girl can't take the position of strongest swordsman. Ultimately, that issue is set up to be focused on and addressed directly in the end, as it should be. I honestly have no idea at this point how it will turn out once the other noise has been swept away and Oda's left to address that one singular roadblock which has more painful buildup yet to come.
She and smoker do win occasionally but never when SHs are involved their character arc requires them to constantly lose to the SHs and be indebted to them in some way. Thus fueling this need to chase and improve which borders on obsession.
Her reasons for being hung up on sexism have already bean pointed out by people on this thread. And does mesh well with her pigheaded narrow minded view of the world. For those who always complain about her humiliation when ever she meets the SHs. It is be design. Smoker was a logia and still got saved by the SHs. They will not be redeemed in this Arc. Their Characters are way too important to have their driving motivation stripped this early in the manga.
Again, I agree. Tashigi especially has been put in a positon to chase Zoro desperately in her attempts to catch up to him throughout the story. Even what little redemption she's gotten in this arc has been supplemented by her display of utter inferiority in comparison to him. At the same time, it lends itself to the idea that her desperate and sustained drive to improve will lead to redemption at the end of the story, however that occurs. My personal theory is that she'll decide that Zoro isn't actually evil in the end for whatever reason, and her redemption will come at the expense of an actual antagonist. Regardless of the reasons for her to be a major part of the story, she'll be viewed as a sympathetic character by many, which makes me believe she'll reach a favorable end.
On the contrary, I expect Smoker to be able to flex his muscle and be presented as a threat, mostly to get bested situationally. But that's a different topic.
Tashigi exists as vehicle to explore Zoro's past and how he comes to terms with it. Just Like Ace's death and the Mystery of Sabo Drive Luffy's development.
I pointed this statement out before because I feel that it summarizes her character succinctly. I don't believe I could say it any better. The fact that Tashigi says the same things as Kuina only reinforces that to me.
Second Zoro:
This thread has been divided into two sides. one vehemently denies any effect of gender on Zoro's behavior the last couple of chapters. I like to call these the blind believers. And the other, My least favorite, are the sexism brigade. Who are overcome by paroxysms of yelling sexism! and Sanji! between bouts of "here in California we do things differently" So I say sit down before you hurt yourselves. This is not your liberal utopia where we all drive Priuses and recycle everything. This a story with Characters who have real flaws and CONFLICT.
I really don't like statements that generalize the fanbase. It alienates those who don't apply and it takes away from what I feel are some very good points. That said, I've been attempting to trumpet Zoro as an actual character in this thread and my attempts feel as if they've simply hit the ground with a thud and been glossed over in favor of other things. So while I do understand where you're coming from, I also feel like this will get attention for the wrong reasons.
Speaking of Sanji he does point out Zoro's situation rather succinctly when he says "he has a soft side too. but will get the job done.". That is the chapter in a nutshell. I am amazed that Sanji of all people knows about this side of Zoro. But it's rather clever to use him to point out Zoro's conflict even though it's unclear how he came to know this. That is because he is being gracious about Zoro's 'issue' despite their rivalry. it's one of the rare moments of Sanji's and Zoro's camaraderie and mutual trust. the second one this arc.
Now Zoro is a very private person. His Character has been very mysterious. Non of the SHs should know of his back story or about Kuina. Whereas they all know about Luffy and Ace probably not Sabo. But they know about Shanks. All other SHs back stories are fairly known to each other but not Zoro. Which lead a lot of people to think of him as simply Bad-ass or one-dimensional caricature. But not after these couple of Chapters.
I felt like Sanji was used because he's the guy we'd be able to doubt the least when something positive about Zoro is said. I don't really get too hung up in how he knows this stuff, because there's a lot that goes on off panel. I think it's plenty likely for the rest of the crew to be in the dark about Zoro's past, but I also recognize that it can't simply be assumed as truth. Since we already have the information, this is the sort of thing that can be discussed behind the scenes without our knowledge. Zoro and Sanji are also rivals, so it makes sense for them to have earned each other's respect in the process, even if they're always at each other's throats.
I certainly agree that he's portrayed as someone who keeps his baggage to himself. But part of that is the way that backstories have been revealed. In most cases, they're stories which are actually told, and as a result heard by the crew. In Zoro's case, it came up as a simple memory when there was no crew to tell to begin with. The other case is that of Usopp's, which only came up in a conversation between Kaya and Merry after the crew left the island. Considering its nature, it doesn't seem like the kind of story that Usopp would tell, as his character prefers to brag, even (especially) if that means lying to do it.
Tashigi is the only one Zoro ever spoke to about his past.
! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2011/11/09/o/read4eba7c213141f/One_Piece_v12_020.png
It is obvious that she alone can be the catalyst to show us this side of him that he carefully guards. A man who spends his time sleeping drinking or training it's easy to think of him as calm and centered. But now we get a glimpse of what is seething under the facade of that calm. The last time Zoro's facade cracked was when Mihawke defeated him. I always thought it was stupid for him to cry after defeat. Having re-read the beginning of the series recently. I realized that Zoro used to fight with two swords. Only after Kuina's death did he invent three-sword style specifically to carry her sword with him. To literally carry her dream with him. Always. He cries out of guilt at letting Kuina down.
I have to give you credit for these observations. They seem spot on to me and easily missed. Part of the reason that Zoro's ascention to three-sword style is so frequently overlooked is how the anime handled that flashback. They added a filler scene in which Zoro arrived at the dojo for the first time and attempted to prove himself by using about 9 swords at once, which led the audience to believe that he started out simply thinking that more is better. But in reality, that's not the way his character was portrayed by Oda. To further your point, I noticed a long time ago that he always uses the wado in his mouth when he uses his three-sword style. I don't recall how extensively I fact checked that one, though.
A lot of people view Zoro as a cookie cutter style type of badass character. He's even gotten a lot of grief from many fans for that reason. What's unfortunate is that at some point it became expected, and any departure from that belief would be viewed as out of character. I'll admit that I was beginning to get caught up in that as well, unfortunately (I blame peer pressure, lol). As a result, this chapter comes as a shock to the system of many, but I'm grateful for it in that regard. It forces those of us who care enough to reevaluate his character and what we think we know about it. It's time for us to acknowledge that he is, in fact, an actual character, rather than just some cliche.
More importantly the Manga, far more clearly than the anime, shows that her death was suspicious. maybe she did die from a fall. Most likely she killed herself. More importantly, Zoro probably thinks so too. He probably has survivor's guilt. He probably blames himself for pushing her too hard. Maybe if he let her be the biggest fish in her little pond. Maybe that would be enough. True or imagined these feelings of guilt and anger that are deeply repressed shape Zoro's personality. We only get a flash-back of this past when Zoro thinks he is going to die by firing squad. That is how deep this man represses these feelings. This is further enforced by the fact that Kuina's sword is the only one that Zoro deems irreplaceable. This is at the same time he meets Tashigi. Notice he never calls Tashigi by her name always fraud or captain four eyes. Nor does he ever utter Kuina's name in her presence. People always cover up emotion with attitude or humor. Zoro always goes extra bad-ass in front of Tashigi. All that bullshit about beasts and what not. Look for him calling her by name as sign of him coming to term with his past.
Yes! I mentioned before that this is my favorite part of your entire post, and I mean it. I've been declaring suicide from the beginning (which for me is admittedly only 2009), but rather than people arguing with me, nobody has ever cared. I was always disappointed by the lack of interest but moved on. I really hope that changes now, because this is heavy stuff. There's admittedly a lot of speculation from both of us. Analysing ambiguous situations without a lot of supporting evidence is uncertain by nature, but this is a case I feel pretty confident about.
Kuina's death had to make a significant impact on Zoro, because he's an actual character. And the fact that he hides his feelings about all of this, at least from us readers, means that we don't really know how it affects him, even if we can be confident that it does. This chapter gives us that ever important crack in the armor that hides the truth of his mentality from us. Speculation can finally begin to find a solid foundation to stand on. This is the stuff that I can say with conviction.
A man who blames himself for the death of his best friend and idol. Zoro wants to honor her by treating women fighters equally. But feels guilty about hurting them as it reminds him of 'allegedly' hurting Kuina. He usually is able to cover this uncomfortable side of himself. But it rears it's head whenever Tashigi is around. He had just met her. And now he is fighting a woman. Sure he wants everyone to leave so he can fight freely. Sure he wants to see what this logia's got. But more than anything he is dreading hurting her. Having just had Tashigi rattle him by her mere presence. People question whether Zoro would defeat Monet if Tashigi wasn't there. And the answer is yes. If anything Tashigi makes it harder not easier to hurt Monet. Zoro actually asks her to leave repeatedly. However when tashigi's life is in danger Zoro not only defends her. He cuts Monet's face. Imagine how hard that is for him to cut a women's face her essence. Although Zoro will hardly admit it he is loath to see Tashigi get hurt. What boggles my mind is how does Sanji know this?
This is where speculation really begins to take over, but I echo most of your opinion in this paragraph. I believe Kuina's untimely death resulted in Zoro not liking the idea of hurting women. It's not any sort of sexist indictment towards them, either. Someone who loses their best friend in childhood doesn't want to be reminded of that pain. At the same time, that also doesn't imply a lack of respect. He can respect a fighter without wanting to actually fight them. Those two ideas aren't joined at the hip like a lot of people want to assume.
I'm actually a little bit surprised that Oda decided to change Tashigi's hairstyle so that it doesn't match Kuina's anymore. I'm not sure that makes it any easier for Zoro, though, because the damage of the comparison is already done.
I think by now Zoro has nurtured that image of Kuina in his mind to a point of obsession or something akin to love. He also feels guilty for these emotions which he perceives as viewing her not as a great swords woman. This is another reason why Tashigi bothers him. He doesn't know how or what to feel about her. Tashigi of course is perfect foil for these complex emotions with her pit-bull personality and views on gender. And her inability to see what is in front of her. Something Sanji! ,for God's sake, Sanji!, was able to see. So no wonder Zoro's carefully hidden flaw shows when she is around. Notice Zoro is not proud of this. He never states outright what it is he rather not cut. He didn't even answer Monet last chapter. He really wants to be faithful to the memory and promise to Kuina but it is that same memory that is giving him pause. A beautiful complex character from perhaps the least likely candidate for complexity among the SHs and yet all you did is complain about it instead of enjoying it.
I don't like this love angle, nor do I agree with it. They were childhood friends and rivals. Kuina, who was older, was only beginning to hit puberty when she killed herself died. I mean, you're obviously free to theorize the way you see it, but this is where my opinion really differs from yours.
I do hope you keep posting like this in the future. I, like probably many others, appreciate the insight you bothered to articulate.[/hide]
Now, moving on to the duller things (no offense to those I'm arguing with, I just find the topic less interesting).
@blader…
[hide]@blader37:
This might come as an insult but I’ll say it anyways.
You are very well versed in literature. You’re the type of guy that can baffle others with your words; you can say the grass is purple when we all know it’s green and still put up a debate.
I’m not accusing you of doing this entirely, and again I do apologize if you’re insulted. But to a certain degree I feel it is.
I can't say for sure if you realize it or not, but this is quite a clever little attack you've cooked up. You're hiding an implication that my logic is terrible by attributing it to a simple advantage in argumentation skill and playing it off as a compliment with its passive aggressive nature. It's easily sneakier than anything I've done to this point, so don't play possum and let's keep it between the lines.
I think you’re over analyzing to deeply into something that’s not as complicated as your making it out to be. I’m not saying let’s just call Zoro a sexist or a contradictory character and end the discussion, No! The discussion has been fun and very enjoyable to read.
Ok. Then I think you're not giving the importance or ambiguity of this chapter the credit it deserves.
You are misunderstanding me. I might have worded it wrong but this is What I mean to say, Zoro is telling Kuina not to complain that she’s a woman who’s bound to become weaker. He is training to beat her and one day when he does his afraid that she will bring out the “am a woman who is bound to lose to men card”. The thought of this pisses Zoro off. This is the foundation that we believed his character was built upon. Zoro himself is telling Kuina to cut this sexist bullshit out. Zoro and “Us readers” believed that zoro had no issues fighting women.
This is how most of us believed his character was like for 687 chapters, Minus the Enel Fiasco which was thought of as a mistake; which apparently wasn’t.
I counter this by saying that it's Kuina's death in particular which causes a change in Zoro's character. That thing… you know... character development. What's important regarding Kuina is that he doesn't begin to look down on women based on gender, and I don't think that he will.
This comment of yours seems like your really putting a lot of trust in Oda when we already know how his portrayal of women is in the manga; especially when it comes to fights and abilities. Your speculation of Zoro's action being due to his trauma of Kuina's is just speculation. Zoro's actions are certainly about gender, or to a certain degree maybe about strong and weak. This much is fact.
He's hesitant to have women brutalized, which I understand, but I don't think his portrayal of women is as bad as you make it seem. One of the emperors is a woman, for God's sake.
It's true that my speculations of Zoro's actions are speculation. But guess what. So are yours and everyone else's, because they're ambiguous. Zoro's actions are heavily implied to be about gender, and I even agree that it's probably the case, but to say that it's certain when it's ambiguous is too much.
Also none of us are disgusted to the point of tossing our monitors across the wall but just disappointed. This debate about Zoro being a character and having flaws and all is nice. He is a normal human being and I understand that, it certainly does make movies and drama’s interesting to see when it has these types of qualities in the characters. But this is all Speculation. Do you want to find a reason to believe these things because it might be a good thing for Zoro’s character?? Sure! Go for it, but I don’t think it’s likely because it seems more of a contradiction in Zoro’s character considering his past and who the writer is.
I feel this is a poor development and I’m a bit disappointed.
Your opinions are just as much speculation as mine. As long as you understand that, it's fine.[/hide]
And finally @Gizmo…
[hide]@Gizmo:
That said, let me know if you want to keep going. Either way, it's been fun.
I'll go until I realize that I'm on repeat.
You seem to keep missing my point in that what you think is a mirror image isn't. Posting what started the fights in the first place was to emphasize the fact as to why Zoro should have ended Monet's fight earlier and why for Hyouzou was more lenient, because that was solely just practice for Zoro to get a fight in for exercise with Hyouzou in what he thought could've been an interesting fight, instead of stopping a force that was trying to actively hunt others.
It feels like I already typed up quite a bit on why Zoro would be hesitant to cut women in this post, so I'll defer to that. The most important thing is that he does his job of stopping Monet, not how he accomplishes it. He does so properly, so I don't see the problem. It's a silly hypothetical of "oh, what if she got by him!" when he clearly believed that she couldn't. If he was worried that she might be able to pull that off, it'd be a different story.
As for the second part, I've brought up Zoro's line to Hyouzou, he didn't want to fight a person without fighting spirit, ie once he took away his swords, something I feel like he only did to Monet at the very last second. Hyouzou never reached that climatic rise when he cut up his swords, he didn't even have any special attacks.
I think it's safe to say that Monet's fighting spirit was pretty much shot when Zoro cut her in half. She regained it through desperation afterwards much like Hyouzou did.
The fight with Hyouzou did reach a boiling point. It was just very weak from a literary standpoint because… well... the entire fight was.
Monet, from the very beginning not only had a lot of fighting spirit, but kept actively trying to hunt down his friends.
Unsuccessfully.
If you don't like the hypotheticals, how about just in the last chapter where Monet didn't go after him but go after Nami/Chopper? You've argued that he believes that he knows the crew can defend themselves, but that was a case(s) where Monet on multiple occasions gave Zoro the slip and had the opportunity to attack his friends. If there was ever a reason for Zoro to just stop messing around and end the fight it's that, something not shown with Hyouzou.
The area with snow is her domain. She can move around within it pretty freely. Once Nami and company get beyond the edge of the snow, they get outside of Monet's ambush range.
As for hypocrisy, then yea, if people cared enough about Hyouzou and analyzed it to the point they were doing with Monet vs Zoro, they'd probably think it was a jerk move as well (though I admit sexism is a factor and probably be some reason as for "justification"), but since the only people in the Plaza were trained warriors and crew members that weren't shown to be unable to handle Hyouzou vs Monet trying to actively seek out a bunch of helpless kids and a crew that was mentioned to not be able to handle Monet, it's that Monet's case is so much worse when completely ignoring gender.
Let's first quality that "handle" in this case means "defeat." How do you honestly think Nami would have fared against Hyouzou? Also, Monet didn't show that she was pursuing the kids. She had faith that they'd take the candy themselves. She was more concerned about the Straw Hats stopping them.
And finally, if it was the mirror image, then it's a question as to whether the reasons he didn't cut up Monet and Hyouzou is the same, and I've been arguing it's because she's a woman that Zoro hesitated with Monet, which is why saying gender is an issue is a fair point.
I give complete credence to the idea that he hesitated because he didn't want to cut up a woman. My biggest thing is that it's ultimately ambiguous, and none of us REALLY know. I use the fact that he acted the same way towards a (mer)man as supporting evidence that other possibilities exist.
The fact that you're acknowledging that the issue is there isn't my point. My point is that you've been arguing that pointing out that fact is not relevant to what we're arguing, which is that Zoro treated Monet differently because she's a girl. And the relevance of that is argued throughout various parts of this post.
What I will say here though is that now it's just extremes at work. Personally, despite the lengthy posts and arguments, I wasn't that bothered by Zoro's actions to an extreme. It seemed to irk me more than you, but I don't look down at Zoro completely because of it. I get what you're saying that some people seem extremely blinded by this and are just calling sexism and bashing the character.
That said, I feel like you and others are at the complete other end of the spectrum. Instead of complete disgust, people are trying extremely hard to complete rationalize Zoro's actions and trying actively to not find any fault with Zoro's actions at all.
The whole able to cut up girls is something where there's definitely going to be no headway, since this really is just different thoughts on the issue.
It's more that I don't want to jump to conclusions about Zoro's actions. I want to understand them, and that begins with the acknowledgement that we really don't. And until we do, I feel like he (and Oda) deserve the benefit of the doubt. I hate the idea of being critical about a hypothetical which might be wrong to begin with. I'm fine with criticising Tashigi who wears her heart on her sleeve, so we understand her reasoning and actions. I'm fine with criticising Oda for how he crafts the scenario. Because these things are clear and understood. The thing is, most people aren't criticising those things. The criticism is mostly about something that we don't have the proper information about to begin with. More than anything else, I want to preach patience.
Yeah, but ambiguous statements that seem to imply something of a certain nature is still way better than rationalizations that were given no context during the fight at all like Zoro actively handicapping himself. And the fact that it's there, and people recognize that it's there, can be just as good as being explicit about it. I noticed you still didn't have a better alternative either for what Zoro/Sanji were talking about other than women.
I never argued that Zoro was actively handicapping himself. And I think Zoro and Sanji were talking about women. But I still can't claim it as undisputed truth. I also hold issue with people skipping the "why" and frequently even the "if" of an implication to go straight to complaining about it.
And it's a bit odd that you seem to be pushing for hard facts here when earlier you were going for there's very little fact in the chapter when all your arguments are based on conjecture.
Of course they are. Everybody's are! I just want that to be recognized.
Here's another hypothetical. Zoro didn't try slicing Monet because he thought he could turn her into a good guy, but realized he couldn't. You see my point with this?
That is another hypothetical, yes, despite it being one I have difficulty buying into. But I don't see your point, no.
Japan as the patriarchal society is probably a factor. Funny enough, I'm from California and if you read the thread that seems to be a thing about my perceptions.
But the way I see it. I don't like harming girls, but I don't like harming guys either. I don't go out and harm people. But if someone attacks me or tries to attack someone else, I would probably do what it takes to stop them.
And even if he doesn't think "less" of girls, the fact that he didn't want to harm a girl affected his way of fighting is irking, even if he doesn't look down on them.
"the fact" there it goes again. I think it's likely so let's just say "the probability" and go from there. I want you to remember these posts you're making (not mine, I don't expect you to care about that). Because the day we get a justification for his actions I want you to go back and read them again.
Don't take that argument to mean Zoro wouldn't ever cut Monet, you know that I'm not saying that, or at least I would hope so.
But what I'm asking about is the threshold for Zoro cutting Monet/Kalifa would need to be, and that's just going into way too much hypotheticals. My line of thought was that Zoro seemed to be actively trying to not incapacitate Monet even though he has the opportunity and has no real reason to avoid doing it other than because he doesn't want to or nobody was going to die/get seriously injured at that very second, which can give the opportunity for a counter attack. If I'm not being clear as to why this distinction makes the case comparable to Kalifa vs Sanji, then let me know.
The simple answer is "when it comes down to it." When it comes down to it, Sanji is unwilling, but Zoro is. Neither want to, and that should be ok.
For the second part, you seem to find a distinction between a literary standpoint and I don't think there's a good storytelling standpoint for not stopping the fight when he could, nor did you provide one.
Storytelling standpoint? You're freaking joking. It was the launching pad for the most important chapter for Zoro's personal story since East Blue. The storytelling reasoning is beyond massive.
I think you mean the logical standpoint. I've maintained that it's been left intentionally ambiguous so we don't really know. I've theorized that it's hesitation that results from Kuina's death. This has all been provided.
Speculation requires proof. By this logic, people are completely justified in the new crewmate thread defending every random character to join the crew, when clearly some make better cases than others.
Semantics, but speculation requires supporting evidence, not proof. Proof is far too extreme.
Cabaji: he was injured, and that meant something during the battle.
Hyouzou: didn't reach a boiling point, Hyouzou didn't do any special techniques and Zoro just sliced up his swords and called it a day.
Against Cabaji, he was injured yet allowed it to get worse to prove a point. Hyouzou most certainly did reach a boiling point when he came back with persistance despite Zoro letting him run away (which means he proved his strength or Hyouzou would never have run in the first place). Just because it was weak doesn't mean that it didn't exist at all.
And the fact that you keep bringing up alternatives goes back to that justification argument I brought up before, that people can't just have an opinion without having to justify it, and why I wanted to argue with you. Coming up with rationalizations don't make for a strong argument, I think we've both been guilty of that in this discussion.
Of course I need to bring up alternatives. I'm the one harping on the ambiguity of the chapter, after all. People can have any opinion they want, and by the same token I or anyone else can challenge those opinions. That's life on a forum.
People bash on Sanji all the time for having his flaws because they hate them. People don't like Luffy getting stuck in buildings or not taking fights seriously even though it's in character.
We understand those flaws. They're clear and obvious, and often over the top and overpowering. Nobody is arguing that they're perceived incorrectly.
I realize I'm doing this a lot in this post, but if some of the fanbase have to think Zoro is perfect, than another part of the fanbase has to make it so that people like 100% of Zoro's character, which I don't think is necessary.
I don't like the thought of either of those extremes. But hell, something like 30% of Americans think the world will end in their lifetime. The world is full of opinions I don't agree with.
To quote Gurren Lagann, if the chances aren't 0%, they might as well be 100%. Yeah, you can argue that he seems to be reckless with Hyouzou for letting him get away even though Hyouzou only showed himself to be a swordsman and Zoro took out his swords, but Monet showed a lot of versatility, and even gave Zoro a couple slips a few times, which is why Monet should've been stopped must earlier than she should've been.
The reason for doing this is most likely because Zoro didn't want to harm a woman. You can come up with other possibilities, but I think you agree that this is the most prominent reason with actual fact, implicit or otherwise, while the rest is purely conjecture by fans without any context in the chapters during the fight themselves.
And finally, I find it bothersome because you should make sure your opponent is unable to fight if they're perceived as a threat, and if the main reason is because you don't like harming women, than that's pretty weak.
I'm almost surprised you don't hate this manga. Taking chances, and leaving it up to luck/fate/etc is a running theme.[/hide]
I'd argue with Urouge and CCC left and right if I didn't always agree with them. Even when they were going back and forth I some how agreed with both of them.
You're just not trying hard enough!
I disagree with you all the time, what are you talking about.
Oh, btw, very-late-gloating about Momo in the dump.
I gave you props on that, but my post on that chapter was about a week late (due to me forgetting to post it).
But let's face it, most of the time you disagree with me it's because you want to see boobs. :ninja:
…or when you own me for operating off of a bad translation. I don't win against you much now that I think about it.
You know what? Monet's defeat actually makes me excited to see what happens to Vergo. Because, in the past, I've compared this arc to Little Garden where a series of weak, cowardly villains challenge the crew for awhile, leave them on the ropes, only to get defeated in a such a way that we can't doubt that the Strawhats were way stronger to begin with. Now, I'd be happy either way, but can the same happen to Vergo? Is he as badass as he seems, much in the way Mr. 5 was before meeting Luffy, or will Smoker surprise us all and display a new level of power? I really hope we get to see this fight next.
You know what? Monet's defeat actually makes me excited to see what happens to Vergo. Because, in the past, I've compared this arc to Little Garden where a series of weak, cowardly villains challenge the crew for awhile, leave them on the ropes, only to get defeated in a such a way that we can't doubt that the Strawhats were way stronger to begin with. Now, I'd be happy either way, but can the same happen to Vergo? Is he as badass as he seems, much in the way Mr. 5 was before meeting Luffy, or will Smoker surprise us all and display a new level of power? I really hope we get to see this fight next.
Yeah, i did that comparison with Little Garden, too. The difference is probably the length of the respective arcs.
CC = Mr3
Vergo = Mr5
Monet = Miss Valentine