Chapter 680: "Captain of the Marine's G-5, Kichiku no Vergo"

[Autumncomet]

Damsel in distress unfortunately isn't the only way that sexism can manifest itself in media. One Piece is a lot better about it than many works, but it's still a shonen manga with the appropriate baggage. This doesn't mean we can't enjoy One Piece, flaws and all.

@Nex:

Wait. What? How? Ace got one cool moment in Alabasta before being beaten by Blackbeard (which definitely would have gotten cries of sexism) and then spending the majority of his screen time needing to be rescued. Compared to all of the women we've seen in this series (who have all been quite strong and independent, mind you) Ace would have been the most stereotypical "damsel" in the series.

He never asked for help. That is the main issue.

Oh well, go Hina and Tsuru.

e: And before anybody gets me wrong, I did enjoy the emotional parts of Arlong Park and Enies Lobby.

[Nex 0]

@Autumncomet:

But it's very different because what do we remember about Zoro, Usopp, Sanji, Franky, Chopper, and Brook's main arcs? Them doing things. That is the essential difference. Nami and Robin did badass things, but those things are overshadowed in the story by their emotional reactions to their friends, which is a shame because Nami especially had an amazing story.

To be fair Zoro never really had an arc. My favorite moment of his, however, is his promise to Luffy after he gets beaten by Mihawk, where he's in tears and is emotionally raw.

My favorite Usopp moment in the Kuro arc is the disbanding of the Usopp Pirates: it makes me tear up every time. Though I would have to say that his "main arc" would be W7/EL, and that was nothing but emotional moments for him that were perhaps overshadowed by Robin's.

For Sanji and Baratie, my honest to God favorite moment is when he's leaving the ship. It's what won me over to his character, as I didn't like him at all up to that point.

For Chopper…I don't know. What I think of for Chopper in Drum is the flashback and Hiriluk's fantastic death.

Franky is another hard one. I guess it would have to be him throwing himself in front of the train.

Brook: Bink's Sake.

Luffy, for "his" arc, it's obviously I'm weak.

So that's how it is for me, but then again, I don't read One-Piece for the fights. I read it for these kinds of moments.

[Urouge]

@Nex:

EDIT: Dammit! Here I am trying to write a well thought-out response, and Urouge gets the zinger in a single sentence. :getlost:

Sometimes one sentence is all you need!

@TheCrystalShip:

Uh, if the character of Ace had been a woman, that would have actually been a really awesome portrayal of a female character, now that I think about it.

…are you trolling?

Bottom line, characters will always be pushed to the brink and get "shit on" for the sake of suspense for this type of story and every worthwhile character has fans. That character's fans will always bitch about the treatment said character is getting, and if they're female then the sexism card is easy to try to pull.

I don't feel this is sexism. If there's any sex based motivation, it's that it's easier to elicit empathy from readers by using a female. I doubt there's hardly anyone here who doesn't cringe more if they see a girl get punched out than a guy. And as far as getting Sanji riled up as a character? It has to be a girl, no choice, because that's how his character functions.

[Autumncomet]

@Nex:

To be fair Zoro never really had an arc. My favorite moment of his, however, is his promise to Luffy after he gets beaten by Mihawk, where he's in tears and is emotionally raw.

My favorite Usopp moment in the Kuro arc is the disbanding of the Usopp Pirates: it makes me tear up every time. Though I would have to say that his "main arc" would be W7/EL, and that was nothing but emotional moments for him that were perhaps overshadowed by Robin's.

For Sanji and Baratie, my honest to God favorite moment is when he's leaving the ship. It's what won me over to his character, as I didn't like him at all up to that point.

For Chopper…I don't know. What I think of for Chopper in Drum is the flashback and Hiriluk's fantastic death.

Franky is another hard one. I guess it would have to be him throwing himself in front of the train.

Brook: Bink's Sake.

Luffy, for "his" arc, it's obviously I'm weak.

So that's how it is for me, but then again, I don't read One-Piece for the fights. I read it for these kinds of moments.

Emotional reactions to their friends. You'll notice in all of these examples you gave, it's the character's own emotions as related to themselves that we focus on. With Nami and Robin, it's how they opened up to other people.

All of them were good moments. I read One Piece for those moments too, I guess I'm just not a very good fan.

[igetownd]

@rayleigh92:

Do you know what is a Raw, right? Then, here's the raw of ch.673, where Oda give us the right translitteration of Vergo's name:
"VA" stay for "Vice Admiral" Vergo.

So it's Virglo ;)

[Game And Guy]

Are we seriously talking about an age old trope that has existed for hundreds of years that has never bothered anyone, except maybe Americans?

@igetownd:

So it's Virglo ;)

What.

[GuetaMinute]

Oversensitive, perhaps?

[igetownd]

Verigulo? Virildogo? Veirlgo?

Joke aside, I don't really think Oda cares how it's spelled in English. I don't think he cares if it's spelt wrong in Japanese. He's a punny guy, so he gets it.

Anyway, I wonder if Sanji's foot will get stuck to Velcro's face.

[Nex 0]

Before I continue I would like to say that this is perhaps the last thing I expected to have a discussion on this chapter, but now that it's happened, it seems only natural.

@tatermoog:

I don't have much of a problem with the Ace/Damsel in Distress comparison, but did Ace ever actually ask for someone to help him? Wasn't the whole shtick that he'd rather die?

If I'm getting the opposite side correctly, it's that Nami/Robin/Shirahoshi/Tashigi all had a big "HELP ME!" moment.

He started wanting to be saved about half way through which is the exact same for Robin and Nami!!

Robin told them all to leave and let her die more than Ace did, and it was a while before she decided she wanted to live. The crew went after her without her ever asking for help! Once she finally did, it wasn't that long before she was freed.

Same for Nami, she actively told everyone to leave her alone, that she didn't need their help. It was only after she reached her breaking point that she did. Then she didn't even sit around, she went to Arlong Park with every intention of joining the fight! Out of all 3 of these characters, she needed no literal rescuing!

If Ace is not a "Damsel in Distress" then Robin and Nami can't be either.

[GuetaMinute]

Very gold. HE'S RELATED TO GOLD ROGER.

[Game And Guy]

@GuetaMinute:

Very gold. HE'S RELATED TO GOLD ROGER.

What a twist!!!!!

[King Cannon]

@400MillionBelis:

Are we seriously talking about an age old trope that has existed for hundreds of years that has never bothered anyone, except maybe Americans?

To be fair, it's only recently that women have been allowed to have opinions, so it's not like people cared if they were offended by an old age trope before they started rebelling against their kitchen-bound way of life.

[TheCrystalShip]

@Urouge:

Bottom line, characters will always be pushed to the brink and get "shit on" for the sake of suspense for this type of story and every worthwhile character has fans. That character's fans will always bitch about the treatment said character is getting, and if they're female then the sexism card is easy to try to pull.

… Do you really think that this argument is still about fictional characters? I'm on the brink of tears right now because of some of the shit I've read on the last few pages, I kind of think this goes beyond "Tashigi fans" and "Sanji fans" at this point.

[igetownd]

@GuetaMinute:

Very gold. HE'S RELATED TO GOLD ROGER.

Are you talking about VA Vergo or Captain Berrygood?

[Autumncomet]

Ace still didn't cry out "Save me!"; he left it up to fate. Then again, I don't think Shirahoshi cried out either (I blocked out most of FI, someone please correct me), so it's a moot point.

On my side, it boils down to me really wanting the Marines to kick some ass. Is this an unreasonable request? :ninja:

[Nex 0]

@Autumncomet:

Emotional reactions to their friends. You'll notice in all of these examples you gave, it's the character's own emotions as related to themselves that we focus on. With Nami and Robin, it's how they opened up to other people.

All of them were good moments. I read One Piece for those moments too, I guess I'm just not a very good fan.

I see what you're saying a bit better now, but I feel that it could be argued that Zoro's was definitely to Luffy, and Brook's was to the Rumbar pirates, Laboon, and the Straw Hats.

Sanji's was definitely to Zeff, and I've got nothing on Chopper/Franky.

Usopp's however, are a but more abstract. If we look solely at the disbanding of Usopp's Pirate Crew, I don;t think that it would be a stretch to say that it happened because he met Luffy and the crew, They're the ones who drove him to set out at sea. W7/EL is a bit more complicated. His arc there definitely begins as a result of the crew (his conflict with Luffy) but after that it's him taking action on his own accord. He chooses to go after Robin and fight with the crew, and that in itself is huge character development for him as he trudges on to becoming a brave warrior of the sea. After that, he has to privately overcome his grief at having to say good-bye to Merry (which is one of my all time favorite Usopp moments) and then he has to realize on his own what his mistakes were with the crew so that he can rejoin. So, while most of it was an emotional reaction to himself, it all happened because of an emotional reaction to his friends.

I hope that all makes sense.

[GuetaMinute]

@TheCrystalShip:

… Do you really think that this argument is still about fictional characters? I'm on the brink of tears right now because of some of the shit I've read on the last few pages, I kind of think this goes beyond "Tashigi fans" and "Sanji fans" at this point.

Issues, dude. I'm sorry but calm down. It's just a comic book.

[nonectra]

@Autumncomet:

Ace still didn't cry out "Save me!"; he left it up to fate. Then again, I don't think Shirahoshi cried out either (I blocked out most of FI, someone please correct me), so it's a moot point.

On my side, it boils down to me really wanting the Marines to kick some ass. Is this an unreasonable request? :ninja:

Speaking of characters that leave things to fate, a present day female character that's a D would be cool. But, well, y'know… most Marines are antagonists, even if they aren't villains. Life is hard being pro-justice and pro-law in a Pirate Manga about freedom.

[Urouge]

@tatermoog:

I don't have much of a problem with the Ace/Damsel in Distress comparison, but did Ace ever actually ask for someone to help him? Wasn't the whole shtick that he'd rather die?

If I'm getting the opposite side correctly, it's that Nami/Robin/Shirahoshi/Tashigi all had a big "HELP ME!" moment.

It's a little harder to make a moment like that work when the character dies in the end.

@TheCrystalShip:

… Do you really think that this argument is still about fictional characters? I'm on the brink of tears right now because of some of the shit I've read on the last few pages, I kind of think this goes beyond "Tashigi fans" and "Sanji fans" at this point.

…I don't even want to know what you're on about.

This is approaching the borders of the topic even within the realm of fiction, but considering Tashigi's position in this chapter I'm fine with it. Outside of that realm? This is not the place.

[TheCrystalShip]

@GuetaMinute:

Issues, dude. I'm sorry but calm down. It's just a comic book.

No, that's what I meant. I'm reacting to people's attitudes on the forum, not to anything that happened in OP.

People just make me sad. I should probably go do something else.

[Nex 0]

@Autumncomet:

Ace still didn't cry out "Save me!"; he left it up to fate. Then again, I don't think Shirahoshi cried out either (I blocked out most of FI, someone please correct me), so it's a moot point.

On my side, it boils down to me really wanting the Marines to kick some ass. Is this an unreasonable request? :ninja:

Shirahoshi cried out for Luffy to save her father and brothers not her.

And Ace told Garp that he wanted to live and he hated himself for it, but yes, he would resign himself to his fate. I think he didn't cry out for them to save him, simply because they already were, him asking for help wasn't necessary. For Nami Luffy wasn't going to act until she asked for help, and with Robin, Luffy wanted to hear her say that she wanted to live.

They all wanted help, or to be "rescued." Yes, only two had to loudly express it, but they all had the same want, which is why i feel more than comfortable citing Ace as a "Damsel in Distress"

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@TheCrystalShip:

No, that's what I meant. I'm reacting to people's attitudes on the forum, not to anything that happened in OP.

People just make me sad. I should probably go do something else.

I hope I'm not one of these people, I've tried to be as polite as possible about all this.

[Hisoga]

@silversatyr:

The dragon's eyes looks like Caesars~ Scary!
About Tashigi, give the poor girl a break. She just watched some of the men under her command die to save her, then some of her remaining men got scorched by a dragon which isn't supposed to exist, then a man who she has come to respect and possibly thought of as a friend and benefactor has turned traitor (yes, she knew before-hand but knowing something and seeing it confirmed for yourself are two different things) and starts to slaughter the precious few men she has remaining. I'd say she'd be in a bit of shock but she still leapt forward to protect her men… only to receive a vicious backhand punch and knock to the head. She did try to get up, but was unable to. So now she's in shock, dazed, probably has a concussion and wrestling with herself ("I should have been able to stop this", "Why couldn't I stop this?", "I'm not good enough.") Never mind the fact that she already was beaten around a bit today - physically and emotionally - by Law (the confidence-breaker) and caught by a crazy man, subjected to the humiliation of everyone seeing more of her body than she'd want to show them and I can see why she isn't at her best. Chances are, she's not used to being treated quite so roughly - I get the impression that while Smoker would never coddle her, she's never really in danger of losing her life as long as he's there. Let's just chalk it up to her having a really bad day.
Me, I'm hoping she pulls herself together a bit and helps Sanji defeat Vergo. It'd help her career and confidence, make up for some of the sacrifices her men have made and put her back on the track to being a stronger female character. One thing people forget - as much as there are weak girl stereotypes in manga... well, there are girls out there who can be strong, but weak at the same time. It's not like a weaker character can't get stronger or be a good role model. Just look at Usopp... it took him a while to build up to being as good as he is. I think Tashigi is on the cusp of realizing herself and making tracks to becoming a stronger character - if not physically, then definitely emotionally.

awesome post sir.. thanks

[Calchexas]

@Nex:

Shirahoshi cried out for Luffy to save her father and brothers not her.

And Ace told Garp that he wanted to live and he hated himself for it, but yes, he would resign himself to his fate. I think he didn't cry out for them to save him, simply because they already were, him asking for help wasn't necessary. For Nami Luffy wasn't going to act until she asked for help, and with Robin, Luffy wanted to hear her say that she wanted to live.

They all wanted help, or to be "rescued." Yes, only two had to loudly express it, but they all had the same want, which is why i feel more than comfortable citing Ace as a "Damsel in Distress"

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I hope I'm not one of these people, I've tried to be as polite as possible about all this.

Excellent analysis overall. I reckon that if Ace had survived the Whitebeard War, we'd all be complaining about how Ace is too much like Robin!

[Autumncomet]

The actual crying out for helping is a pretty essential part of the whole damsel in distress thing. It's the admittance to outside parties that you just can't do it anymore, and losing a bit of your agency.

So what I get from the past 5 pages or so is:

• Sanji can be chivalrous and that's just part of his character, but his lechery is terrible.
• Tashigi, please be badass next chapter, you can do it!
• Feminist issues need to be discussed, but AP probably isn't the best place to do it.

Excellent analysis overall. I reckon that if Ace had survived the Whitebeard War, we'd all be complaining about how Ace is too much like Robin!

We'd probably be doing what we're doing to Tashigi right now and hoping that Oda gives him a badass moment in the future.

[nonectra]

@Autumncomet:

The actual crying out for helping is a pretty essential part of the whole damsel in distress thing. It's the admittance to outside parties that you just can't do it anymore, and losing a bit of your agency.

So what I get from the past 5 pages or so is:

• Sanji can be chivalrous and that's just part of his character, but his lechery is terrible.
• Tashigi, please be badass next chapter, you can do it!
• Feminist issues need to be discussed, but AP probably isn't the best place to do it.

We'd probably be doing what we're doing to Tashigi right now and hoping that Oda gives him a badass moment in the future.

More or less. I think Sanji fans are just glad that he's actually doing something other than having nosebleeds now. Suffering through that… it was truly hell. Well, I mostly kid. One Piece will probably never be a paragon of feminism, but I really hope Oda has something in mind for her. I don't doubt that he does but... She's actually been pretty awesome in Punk Hazard and I really hate to see this moment be something that like... blemishes that. Her calling out Smoker a few chapters ago was cool, I thought.

[Nex 0]

I would like to commend this site for being able to carry such a discussion without insults being hurled, and without people being attacked. It says a lot about the overall character of this place. I would not be able to have a discussion as…sensitive as this on some of the other forums I frequent.

I know this isn't always the case here, but I'm glad it is the case now.

[Demonicpoodle]

@Nex:

I would like to commend this site for being able to carry such a discussion without insults being hurled, and without people being attacked. It says a lot about the overall character of this place. I would not be able to have a discussion as…sensitive as this on some of the other forums I frequent.

I know this isn't always the case here, but I'm glad it is the case now.

It's been said before but the fact that all of the people here are caught up on the manga means a lot towards proactive and constructive discussion. The fact that the manga's so open on sexuality (it basically outright tells you to go ahead and be whatever gender you want to be back in the infamous Impel Down LV 5.5) helps a lot. My friend sadly dropped the manga at that point. Anything related to people being open in their sexuality he hates. Pretty sad but people are their environments and he was brought up in a pretty rigid, closed-box environment.

Basically the manga has a lot of checklists for you to mark off as a human being, and if you're cool with them, you're probably a pretty decent person and able to carry out at least semi-objective and calm discussion.

[Nex 0]

@Autumncomet:

The actual crying out for helping is a pretty essential part of the whole damsel in distress thing. It's the admittance to outside parties that you just can't do it anymore, and losing a bit of your agency.

Eh…I will once again be forced to disagree with you. A lot of the "classic" Damsel in Distress stories don't actually involve the damesel calling out for help. She's just kinda hanging around waiting to be rescued. Or asleep. They're asleep surprisingly often.

I think all it would take is the internal acceptance that you need help, and that's one of the hardest things to do. I know that I hate having to admit I need help with anything, and I will knowingly lie to myself instead of asking someone for assistance. However, when I do accept the fact the I need help (I literally one time needed to be rescued when my car broke down in the middle of nowhere) that doesn't make me a Damsel in Distress. Especially if I actively try to help those helping me.

And that's the key for Nami and Robin. Nami accepted the fact that she needed help, asked Luffy for it, and then she pulled herself together and went to help!

Same goes for Robin: she accepted that she needed helped, told them she wanted to live and then begged them to save her, and then she actively fought Spandam and went so far as to bite concrete.

To be a damsel in distress you have to be resigned to where your at and simply be waiting to be saved. That's not Nami and Robin, as they fought to save themselves.

Ace, however, accepts that he needs help, and then waits to be saved or die. Once he is saved he starts helping out a bit more, but up to that point he is as close to a Damsel in Distress as we will ever see in One-Piece.

[tatermoog]

Brook was pretty damned close to being a damsel in distress in Thriller Bark, too. He was functionally useless for most of that.

[Autumncomet]

Look, I'll PM you unless anyone else expresses interest in my argument, this isn't the thread for it. Cool? I do think we're working with different definitions of damsel in distress though, if that clears anything up.

Did the dragon stop harassing G5 because Vergo showed up? Hype!

[Nalkul]

Cant read all the recent comments on the sanji tashigi thing, but i think the vergo fights gonna be a tag team tashigi sanji vs vergo deal which i think is awesome. Tashigi needs some page time where shes not getting beat so i hope she shows some real skill im not counting her out yet.

[CCC]

@tatermoog:

If I'm getting the opposite side correctly, it's that Nami/Robin/Shirahoshi/Tashigi all had a big "HELP ME!" moment.

Eh, I'd put Nami and Robin in the same boat as Ace in that respect. Nami ran off with the ship and told Luffy to fuck off. She kept doing so until the point when she realized that everyone in her village was going off to die fighting the fishmen, and that she couldn't do anything about it. She could have cried for help when she first saw how strong Luffy and Zoro were, but she kept on putting off the damsel role until the latest-possible, most despair-filled moment (not over fear for her own life/suffering, but for that of others). Robin, of course, volunteered to die to protect her new friends, although she very well could have just run away to save her own skin and let them get bustered. She put herself in the situation not because of some inherent, "feminine" weakness, but rather because of a self-sacrificing strength. Her "help me" only came when she saw that the SHs would rescue her or die trying no matter what, so why not honor their courage by formally requesting some help? Likewise, Ace revived into action when Luffy finally reached him with the key. If you think about it, Brook barely gave pause before asking for help (beat Moriah please) and Usopp didn't take much convincing either (protect village please).

I'm by no means defending Oda's sexism or saying it doesn't exist or should be overlooked (lol @ only a problem for Americans. please), but it's a product of thousands of years of a still-going-quite-strong patriarchy. As long as you can view it in that context, I think you can find some middle ground between the misogyny-apologistic "who cares if women are consistently trivialized?" and the "I am deeply offended and can no longer enjoy this children's comic."

[minor_runes]

@TheCrystalShip:

I'm saying that his manga plays into sexism and patriarchal bullshit.

People here will complain about anything, won't they.

[Nalkul]

So who does everyone think is gonna fight the dragon? Im thinking zoro or kinemon. Zoro because the dragon can bite through steel which could lead to to zoros precious sword being bitten in two parts causing him to need to goto wano for a sword smith to repair it. Or kinemon because he can cut fire. Thoughts?

[Aohige_AP]

Super Mario Bros is so sexist.

And animal abusers.

[STP_PS]

@Noqanky:

So let me guess this …

Woman asks for help, someone comes to help, and that person is awesome.

Woman asks for help, Sanji comes, and he's a bastard.

That's what I'm getting. If you want to complain about Oda making female characters weak then be consistent about it. Why did Luffy have to save Nami again earlier this arc? It's a valid question and concern and I can respect it.
But when it's so clearly simply just pure hatred against Sanji because he's up and front about wanting to defend woman, I simply can't understand it. Yes, the nosebleeds were annoying. The heart eyes can get annoying. But defending a woman who was getting beat up and who wanted help … come on, in no universe should that be wrong.

I agree with this post wholeheartedly!

Now, I think I`m seeing two trends of why people might be slightly unpleased at the chapter, or more specifically at the Tashigi-Sanji-Vergo interaction:

A) Tashigi has been diminish once again. To be honest I couldnt care less, until she can put herself together and believe in her capabilities. Thinking twice I would give her props if she was more coldheaded, but nooooo, shes so straightforward in a blinded way that she would probably face akainu straight on if he would be the one hurting the G-5. I honestly think she needs to take a reality-check because her lack of doing it rubs me in the wrong direction every now and then. I hate to compare but take nami or robin and put them in tashigis position; what would they do if hypothetically vergo would be pummelling the crew ? they wouldnt face Vergo right off the bat,but they would certainly think of how to gain an advantage whether is time, force or what not. sigh. I apologize if Im putting my opinion too bluntly but screaming of justice without backing it with either power, finnesse, perception, ideas or any kind of skill sure doesn`t fit right with me. For Gods sake Tashigi please put yourself together

B) The seccond is more related to Sanji, saving tashigi. His chivalry strikes again and it seems to sit badly with some people, which surprises me :blink:. I thought being chivalrous was a virtue if its not taken to the extreme. Whatsmore,for this particular case I don`t see anything bad about sanji stepping in.

[minor_runes]

@Autumncomet:

Just because female characters kick ass does not mean that they are not subject to sexism. It's much better than just the straight damsel in distress trope, definitely, but at some point, she still ends up being robbed of her agency. What do we remember first about Nami and Robin's main arcs? Nami stabbing her arm and "I want to live!" Powerful, wonderful moments, absolutely, and I would not trade them at all. But it's very different because what do we remember about Zoro, Usopp, Sanji, Franky, Chopper, and Brook's main arcs? Them doing things. That is the essential difference. Nami and Robin did badass things, but those things are overshadowed in the story by their emotional reactions to their friends, which is a shame because Nami especially had an amazing story.

So you admit that they all did things, and the only difference is their gender?
Let me get this straight: A woman in the story reacts emotionally - that's sexism, but a male character reacting emotionally - that's fine and dandy?
Where the heck do you come up with this nonsense? They all were distrustful loners, they all had tragic backstories, they all were helped by Luffy, and they all had an emotional moment. All this sexism talk is hogwash.

[Game And Guy]

@tatermoog:

Brook was pretty damned close to being a damsel in distress in Thriller Bark, too. He was functionally useless for most of that.

Which makes me hate Oars more.

[TheCrystalShip]

@CCC:

I'm by no means defending Oda's sexism or saying it doesn't exist or should be overlooked (lol @ only a problem for Americans. please), but it's a product of thousands of years of a still-going-quite-strong patriarchy. As long as you can view it in that context, I think you can find some middle ground between the misogyny-apologistic "who cares if women are consistently trivialized?" and the "I am deeply offended and can no longer enjoy this children's comic."

Good post. thumbs up

[Densuke]

@igetownd:

Verigulo? Virildogo? Veirlgo?

Joke aside, I don't really think Oda cares how it's spelled in English. I don't think he cares if it's spelt wrong in Japanese. He's a punny guy, so he gets it.

Anyway, I wonder if Sanji's foot will get stuck to Velcro's face.

If Oda didn't care how it was spelled in English he wouldn't have gone out of the way to clearly spell it out for us.

[Aohige_AP]

In Sanji's introduction arc, he was saved by Luffy and Zoro.
Sanji is a damsel.

kamabakka nightmares

[Autumncomet]

@Nalkul:

So who does everyone think is gonna fight the dragon? Im thinking zoro or kinemon. Zoro because the dragon can bite through steel which could lead to to zoros precious sword being bitten in two parts causing him to need to goto wano for a sword smith to repair it. Or kinemon because he can cut fire. Thoughts?

If Tashigi doesn't team up with Sanji/Smoker to fight Vergo, then she's honestly a good candidate. Comedy option: have all of the swordsmen (Zoro, Kinemon, Tashigi, Brook, Law) argue over who gets to take down the dragon. And then Usopp punks it.

So you admit that they all did things, and the only difference is their gender?
Let me get this straight: A woman in the story reacts emotionally - that's sexism, but a male character reacting emotionally - that's fine and dandy?
Where the heck do you come up with this nonsense? They all were distrustful loners, they all had tragic backstories, they all were helped by Luffy, and they all had an emotional moment. All this sexism talk is hogwash.

The fuck? I never said that. I will be the last damn person in the world to say that. Go reread my conversation with Nex. You're missing some subtleties there.

[minor_runes]

@STP_PS:

) The seccond is more related to Sanji, saving tashigi. His chivalry strikes again and it seems to sit badly with some people, which surprises me :blink:. I thought being chivalrous was a virtue if its not taken to the extreme. Whatsmore,for this particular case I don`t see anything bad about sanji stepping in.

Apparently some people just see things that aren't there.
Funny how none of the people accusing OP of sexism ever complain about how Nami is physically assaulting the male cast with no repercussions, or using her femininity to get Sanji to do things for her.

[Autumncomet]

@minor_runes:

Apparently some people just see things that aren't there.
Funny how none of the people accusing OP of sexism ever complain about how Nami is physically assaulting the male cast with no repercussions, or using her femininity to get Sanji to do things for her.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Sexism goes in both directions, and OP makes unpleasant assumptions about all genders, but Nami being Nami wasn't the topic of conversation, Tashigi was. I can go on a rant about Nami if you like!

[Game And Guy]

@CCC:

(lol @ only a problem for Americans. please)

If you're talking about my comment, that it is exaggeration from my part that stems from the fact that comparatively, Americans are offended about almost, if not, everything/

But in any case:

Chapter is awesome. Oda finally sees how people are horrified with what was done with Sanji. Sanji is badass. Kinemon and Brownbeard are awesome. And Luffy and Caesar are awesome.

I can't wait! Especially now that the next chapter is on a Tuesday!

[minor_runes]

@Autumncomet:

The fuck? I never said that. I will be the last damn person in the world to say that. Go reread my conversation with Nex. You're missing some subtleties there.

I

t's much better than just the straight damsel in distress trope, definitely, but at some point, she still ends up being robbed of her agency. What do we remember first about Nami and Robin's main arcs? Nami stabbing her arm and "I want to live!" Powerful, wonderful moments, absolutely, and I would not trade them at all. But it's very different because what do we remember about Zoro, Usopp, Sanji, Franky, Chopper, and Brook's main arcs? Them doing things. That is the essential difference. Nami and Robin did badass things, but those things are overshadowed in the story by their emotional reactions to their friends, which is a shame because Nami especially had an amazing story.

So, what did I miss exactly?
How do their emotional reactions overshadow things they do again? Why doesn't that apply to male characters all of who had the same kind of emotional reaction at some point?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Autumncomet:

Please don't put words in my mouth. Sexism goes in both directions, and OP makes unpleasant assumptions about all genders, but Nami being Nami wasn't the topic of conversation, Tashigi was. I can go on a rant about Nami if you like!

How about you don't go assuming I was talking about you when your name wasn't being mentioned.

[TheCrystalShip]

@minor_runes:

Apparently some people just see things that aren't there.
Funny how none of the people accusing OP of sexism ever complain about how Nami is physically assaulting the male cast with no repercussions, or using her femininity to get Sanji to do things for her.

Wait, what? Isn't this exactly the kind of BS portrayal that was pissing us off in the first place?

[minor_runes]

@TheCrystalShip:

Wait, what? Isn't this exactly the kind of BS portrayal that was pissing us off in the first place?

Yeah, except women actually do do that.

[King Cannon]

@minor_runes:

Yeah, except women actually do do that.

Well, some of them. Not all women do that.

[Cyclone_Baroness]

@TheCrystalShip:

Wait, what? Isn't this exactly the kind of BS portrayal that was pissing us off in the first place?

I thought we were talking about Tashigi getting a decent fight? Or the ladies in OP not having to be saved or something.