@RobbyBevard:
And Eiji will still be doing +Natural.
Second series for both teams.
Yeah, but Eiji only has to do the art for +Natural. Ashirogi has to do the art and story for two series.
Eh, but yeah, close enough.
@RobbyBevard:
And Eiji will still be doing +Natural.
Second series for both teams.
Yeah, but Eiji only has to do the art for +Natural. Ashirogi has to do the art and story for two series.
Eh, but yeah, close enough.
Yeah, but Eiji only has to do the art for +Natural. Ashirogi has to do the art and story for two series.
Eh, but yeah, close enough.
What's the point of referring to Ashirogi as if it's just one person. Even if they did two series, Takagi and Mashiro would still be doing a bit less work than Eiji since both are doing only one part for two series, whereas Nizuma is doing one all by himself and one part (and probably the harder part at that for a weekly series) for another series as well
What's the point of referring to Ashirogi as if it's just one person.
Because they themselves have frequently referred to themselves as one person. Two halves of a whole.
Even if they did two series, Takagi and Mashiro would still be doing a bit less work than Eiji since both are doing only one part for two series, whereas Nizuma is doing one all by himself and one part (and probably the harder part at that for a weekly series) for another series as well
Working as a team comes with a lot of little difficulties and nuances that are quite different, and, in a way, harder than working alone. We've seen how many times they've had their disputes over their work and they've almost broken up several times. Takagi sometimes hits snags in his writing, which means that Mashiro can't do the artwork and that both of them the pressure of worrying about the manga.
And you can't tell me Mashiro doesn't work as hard as Eiji when he's the one who ended up being hospitalized.
I was talking more about workload, and not really about effort
I was talking more about workload, and not really about effort
And as I said, workload alone really isn't enought to determine the playing field because of all those little nuances.
But anyway, that Eiji and Ashirogi have about the same advantages and opportunity, so I'm done.
I really liked this chapter.
Anyway a few thoughts about the Eiji vs. Ashirogi situation.
Eiji seems to already have his idea set…he wants to show it to the Editor in Chief before he leaves WSJ, meaning within the month.
Ashirogi aren't really discussing doing two series at once....I think they're kind of focused on writing this Non-mainstream mainstream battle manga as their next series after PCP. I don't really see them moving on to their next series just yet or running the two simultaneously. For a while Mashiro was trying to get fast enough to draw two chapters in one week. But they since settled down and focused on trying to make PCP all that it can be and accepted that they'll get a big hit worthy of an anime after. At least that seemed to be the gist of things a few arcs ago.
So from that...I would surmise Eiji's "dark hero" series will begin running first. It would certainly be interesting to see the Genius first attempt at number one in the world not quite taking off because it's simply too seinen for Jump. It would at first seem like a setback to Ashirogi because their "Dark hero" wouldn't be entirely original anymore. It seems either way they'll be starting with Eiji. It might serve as a learning experience for them how to make their "dark hero" also suitable for Jump to become a major mainstream success.
^Really? :O
Please tell me.
Other than what Robby explained, which is that Ohba's "name" sketches are nearly identical to that of Gamou, and that Chou Hero Densetsu is almost exactly Tottemo! Lucky Man,
(Lucky Man was Gamou's hit title. Terribly drawn superhero manga, and it was a one-hit wonder that he could never replicate again… sounds familiar?)
In 2005, Otaking, the president of Gainax, said Ohba Tsugumi is Gamou Hiroshi in 2005 4th annual Japan Otaku Prize. When asked why he said that, he told the interviewer he heard it from his editor.
Manga writer Tsuruoka also said this in the same meeting. WSJ Editor in Chief Sasaki declined to comment on the issue.
In 2007, a whole year before Bakuman was even announced, a thread was posted in 2ch by someone claiming to be Gamou's son.
He posted that his father is working on a romance manga plot about a boy striving to be a manga artist, and a girl striving to be a voice actress.
As a proof he also mentioned about the release date for a children's book featuring an underwear superhero, drawn by Gamou. No, not super hero in underwear, the underwear IS the superhero.
This book by Gamou came out a year later, as well as Bakuman's debut, proving that this poster is obviously someone associated with Gamou.
There's some easter-eggs in Death Note and Bakuman relating to Gamou and his past works.
For example, the cram school Yagami Light attends in chapter 1 of Death Note is named Gamou Seminar, A tankoubon of Lucky Man is present in the cover of Bakuman, the incompetent superhero "Otoko no Roman" in Hero Densetsu manga is based on superhero character of the same name in Lucky Man, "Otokonoro-man"
and so on.
I think it's pretty damn safe to say, Gamou = Ohba.
Not only are the evidences enormous, Ohba keeps teasing us by putting Gamou references in the works constantly.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Ashirogi aren't really discussing doing two series at once….I think they're kind of focused on writing this Non-mainstream mainstream battle manga as their next series after PCP. I don't really see them moving on to their next series just yet or running the two simultaneously.
It hasn't been the focus/only goal for a while, they stopped trying to force it a while back. But they keep mentioning it in a sentence here, a sentence there, Mashiro has been practicing getting faster and Takagi has been writing more than just PCP sporadically. (Including geting through several chapters quickly in order to spend more time on the one shot chapter.)
There was even a line in this very chapter about being fast enough to do two series. They still intend to run two at the same time. (And they'd never truly be able to say they were able to beat Eiji if Mashiro could spend 7 days on the art when Eiji can only spend 3.)
Now would be the ideal time to try (storywise), simply because it would put them directly head to head with Eiji.
New chapter is out on mangareader
! Am I the only one who looked at the first version of the idea and realized it was pretty much death note to the letter. Adding the other characters does make it deviate away from that a bit more, but it still seems pretty similar
Not sure how to add spoiler tags so please note
SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER 151
! Indeed I agree Takagi's original idea is basically Death Note with at least the description of the main character matching Light Yagami exactly. Mashiro's twist on the idea does make it more interesting. It still isn't quite mainstream in that there is a psychological component to the battle between the two main characters. At the same time, while it seems to be simply good vs. evil, the "evil" main character is basically Light Yagami. The differences from Death Note are the presence of actual mainstream physical battles, a real manipulative villain (in the form of the demon using the human he gives his powers to in order to cause downfall of the human race), and a true hero. One thing Death Note lacked was a character the reader could really identify with as good or really fully human. The only "good" character in Death Note was Light's father and L. The father had a very minor roll and L was too eccentric to really resonate with the readers as a true hero. If this manga is done right it definitely has potential…I'm not so sure it's truly better than something Eiji could produce though. I mean yes Death Note was successful, but I feel like Eiji will write a series that does for zombies what One Piece does for pirates.
! Speaking of Eiji, he was really the highlight of this chapter for me. I loved how he started drawing all over his own face in marker to make himself look like a zombie lol. XD and the scene when he first tells Yujiro about his idea is great.
Overall I thought this was a great chapter!
New chapter is out on mangareader
! Am I the only one who looked at the first version of the idea and realized it was pretty much death note to the letter. Adding the other characters does make it deviate away from that a bit more, but it still seems pretty similar
! When I first heard "human with the powers of a demon" I immediately thoguht Devilman. But yeah, once they explained the plot it sounded very Deathnote-ish.
! Anyway, great chapter. Eiji's and Ashirogi's ideas weren't quite as original as I expected, but I guess they sound interesting enough, and it's all in the execution.
Wait, is Bakuman actually a story about the life and rise of Tsugumi Ohba and Takeshi Obata?
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Not sure how to add spoiler tags so please note
SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER 151
Indeed I agree Takagi's original idea is basically Death Note with at least the description of the main character matching Light Yagami exactly. Mashiro's twist on the idea does make it more interesting. It still isn't quite mainstream in that there is a psychological component to the battle between the two main characters. At the same time, while it seems to be simply good vs. evil, the "evil" main character is basically Light Yagami. The differences from Death Note are the presence of actual mainstream physical battles, a real manipulative villain (in the form of the demon using the human he gives his powers to in order to cause downfall of the human race), and a true hero. One thing Death Note lacked was a character the reader could really identify with as good or really fully human. The only "good" character in Death Note was Light's father and L. The father had a very minor roll and L was too eccentric to really resonate with the readers as a true hero. If this manga is done right it definitely has potential…I'm not so sure it's truly better than something Eiji could produce though. I mean yes Death Note was successful, but I feel like Eiji will write a series that does for zombies what One Piece does for pirates.
Speaking of Eiji, he was really the highlight of this chapter for me. I loved how he started drawing all over his own face in marker to make himself look like a zombie lol. XD and the scene when he first tells Yujiro about his idea is great.
Overall I thought this was a great chapter!
You add them by typing
! , containing whatever you want inside, and then closing it like you would a quote or anything else, [/ spoiler], without the space.
! And yes I got a very Death Note vibe from the chapter; I don't think it was a coincidence either.
That idea of Ashirogi's does sound a lot like Deathnote, I noticed the same thing. It's almost too similar to be taken seriously. After all, as good as DN was, it didn't really have a catch that would have made it one of the greatest. Of course you have to bear in mind that this is a shonen, but going against someone as talented as Eiji with a piece like that worries me a little. It isn't exactly the most original thing ever, so if Eiji beats them in innovativeness, they're pretty much screwed. Looking forward to seeing how this pans out in the end. Next week on Bakuman: Squealing editor Hattori-san makes an appearance.
And yes I got a very Death Note vibe from the chapter; I don't think it was a coincidence either.
Also, this^
I just read that post of Aohige's as the chapter came out and something smells just a tad fishy here. Ohba, if and when it really is him, is making this all too clear.
! Sounds a lot like Death Note (mainly NotLight thinking his way of thinking is right and justifying everything he does), but it sounds like a cool manga to me!
! I really liked this chapter. It really does feel like they've come a long way, like, Mashiro and Takagi couldn't have done this until this point.
! Although I still like Eiji's idea too. This will be interesting. My hopes are high.
great chap, this looks to be endgame with a deathnote story
And it seems that they still haven't forgotten the promise between Saiko and Miho. A heroine in a mainstream battle-manga? I wonder what that could mean..
It would be Cool if the "Heroine" is the demon of justice, who gave the white human his powers.
It would be Cool if the "Heroine" is the demon of justice, who gave the white human his powers.
Why pick one side? I think It'd be cool if the "heroine" was a neutral(?) demon who gave both of them their powers.
We are starting to discuss stuff in a manga that is in a manga, weird stuff.
I actually work in comics. So at the moment I am
Posting on a comics message board about working in comics and going to a comic store to read a comic about guys who make comics.
If only I made a fancomic about doing that, it would be even more meta.
As for the new story being a death note proxy? Nearly everything they've had has been an expy of something else anyway, the creators aren't going to go to the full blown effort of creating an actual runnable series just to fit in the context of this one.
that was a friggin damn good chapter.
And, yeah, it felt so Death Note like.
And, hopefully, that's a step closer to the end! Which I want to come not to far to keep the manga great!
Not that impressed by the new ideas. Definitely seems like Bakuman is building to a long awaited conclusion though…
Eiiji's zombie manga sounds like lots of fun. I'd love to read it. Ohba and Obata better release some one shots when Bakuman ends (or even before that).
Eiiji's zombie manga sounds like lots of fun. I'd love to read it. Ohba and Obata better release some one shots when Bakuman ends (or even before that).
We've already gotten Otters. What more do we need?
Eiiji's zombie manga sounds like lots of fun. I'd love to read it. Ohba and Obata better release some one shots when Bakuman ends (or even before that).
There is a manwha (inmortal regis I think, or the precuel) that it's Magic School + Zombies + Bondage (not sexual, but every woman was someone on power, and if she was beaten, it was by a even stronger woman, with high heels and wips)
I remembered it. Nice concept but wrongly excecuted.
Ashirogi's idea, while not that mind-blowing, is interesting. And besides, what I really like about Bakuman is the process of how they come up with ideas for a story and work on it to create a manga. The manga idea itself is second.
Yeah, Ashirogi's new manga gave me extreme Death Note vibes, and Eiji's reminds me of a fusion of High School of the Dead and Rosario + Vampire. Ah well. Zombies are fun.
I think Eiji making himself look like a zombie as he draws is what makes it most interesting lol
Saiko and Shuujin make Death Note? Awesome. No, wait. Battle manga version of Death Note. Epic. They are finally doing something that sounds like Shounen Jump.
So will this new creation be called Bakuman? It will explain the title of this manga. It may also mean the final arc of this manga :sad:
So will this new creation be called Bakuman? It will explain the title of this manga. It may also mean the final arc of this manga :sad:
Obata explained what the title means in the… second? volume.
"Baku" is from
He didn't say what "man" is for, but its probably from "manga".
So, the title means roughly "gambling on explosive dreams of manga". (The japanese speakers in the room can correct me, but that's my understanding of it.)
It doesn't seem like it would be a good title for their new story.
I have to say, their character designs look lame. And they somehow think White vs Black is a revolutionary way to portray the hero and villain? I wouldn't read their new series.
I guess I don't like seeing them get so fucking excited about coming up with not a very interesting idea. I mean, watch me come up with a battle manga:
Teenagers are in this air force of sorts. They are in teams of 3, one to fly the plane, one to be the gunner, and one to be the on-board mechanic. They go to an academy with other groups, and have a badass manly man mentor. Soon, the other superpower of the world declares war on them, and they have to fly their planes all over the place and sometimes jump out of the planes onto the decks of enemy airships for hand-to-hand combat. They all wear jumpsuits, but differently. The main character (pilot) is a goggles + scarf dude, with puffy airforce sleeves and puffy military pants. He can also use a katana. The gunner wears his jumpsuit half-off, tied around his waste, to show off his muscles and wife-beater. He sometimes has to fight hand to hand. The mechanic is named Emily Gearhart, and her figure does wonderful things to a flight jumpsuit. She can fight with a wrench, and maybe power tools. One of the villains is based of the Red Baron. At one point someone flies their plane right through an enemy dirigible, and it is a moving sacrifice. Also there should be a lady Flight Admiral with an eyepatch. Of course Sky Pirates are involved.
I guess what I'm getting at, is I really don't think Ashirogi has the natural manga talent that some of the others in their world do, or some real-life authors do. They seem to have to work so hard just to come up with something interesting, and maybe I'm only able to say this because I only doodle around and have never undergone any serious creative work, but the idea should be the easy part. If you can't even get that going, then holy shit, why are you in the creative business?
I guess I'm frustrated by all this telling instead of showing. I got into this manga expecting to get to see snippets of great manga, and react like Hattori does, making Mike Ross faces and jizzing myself over a double spread. But we only get to see his reaction, and the author's "Trust us, Panty Flash is good shit. No, seriously. I can't draw a fight scene to save my life, but it's great, for real."
No, coming up with the ideas is absolutely the hard part.
Execution can be developed, trained. You can get better at telling a story or drawing it.
But inspiration? That can't be taught or summoned at whim.
Coming up with idea is the easy part if you are going for a mediocre manga.
Want a revolution? It's the other way around.
I find it painful to look at Ashirogi struggle so much with the ideas too, but then again I'm one of those people whose creative brain power seems completely dedicated to soaking up inspiration and churning out ideas. (In exchange, most of them are forgotten forever because I never get around to doing anything with them. Guess we can't all be Eiji.)
The reason this bothers me so much is probably because I got into this series for the slice-of-life story of a manga artist's everyday life, and too often it's more like a battle manga where series are the weapons and the ratings the power level system. I cringe every time they start going on about rivals and needing to beat said rivals with the new super attack (= idea) they're currently working on. Unless that too is a normal part of a Jump author's experience, of course, then I can't complain…
Teenagers are in this air force of sorts. They are in teams of 3, one to fly the plane, one to be the gunner, and one to be the on-board mechanic. They go to an academy with other groups, and have a badass manly man mentor. Soon, the other superpower of the world declares war on them, and they have to fly their planes all over the place and sometimes jump out of the planes onto the decks of enemy airships for hand-to-hand combat. They all wear jumpsuits, but differently. The main character (pilot) is a goggles + scarf dude, with puffy airforce sleeves and puffy military pants. He can also use a katana. The gunner wears his jumpsuit half-off, tied around his waste, to show off his muscles and wife-beater. He sometimes has to fight hand to hand. The mechanic is named Emily Gearhart, and her figure does wonderful things to a flight jumpsuit. She can fight with a wrench, and maybe power tools. One of the villains is based of the Red Baron. At one point someone flies their plane right through an enemy dirigible, and it is a moving sacrifice. Also there should be a lady Flight Admiral with an eyepatch. Of course Sky Pirates are involved.
So… where is the actual idea? What's the concept? What you have is an idea for a character designs, not a story.
The reason this bothers me so much is probably because I got into this series for the slice-of-life story of a manga artist's everyday life, and too often it's more like a battle manga where series are the weapons and the ratings the power level system. I cringe every time they start going on about rivals and needing to beat said rivals with the new super attack (= idea) they're currently working on. Unless that too is a normal part of a Jump author's experience, of course, then I can't complain…
Well, it IS a shonen manga… I think its pretty neat how often they talk about storytelling techniques, and then proceed to apply them directly into the actual series. Stuf flike adding comedy, changing the artstyle to be wacky and do things that can only be done in manga, having a fight scene even if the authors don't really like having fight scenes, or a "oneshot that isn't a oneshot"... and its neat that way. They also genre hop quite a bit. For a while it seemed like they were going to tackle every genre of manga in the course of this series... while using their setting.
@RobbyBevard:
So… where is the actual idea? What's the concept? What you have is an idea for a character designs, not a story.
well, obviously the concept is "steampunk airship battles". The overall story is their training, becoming an ace team, and helping defeat the opposing army. If I actually tried, I could probably come up with some story arcs. But I don't want to defend a mediocre idea I just made up, it was only an example of how easy it is to come up with a basic premise, which Ashirogi apparently struggles at.
and all they have are character designs, too. With powers incredibly unsuited for shonen. The black devil will go around mind-controlling people, and the white one will run after him unlocking their minds. it sounds moronic.
well, obviously the concept is "steampunk airship battles". The overall story is their training, becoming an ace team, and helping defeat the opposing army. If I actually tried, I could probably come up with some story arcs. But I don't want to defend a mediocre idea I just made up, it was only an example of how easy it is to come up with a basic premise, which Ashirogi apparently struggles at.
No, again, you have a setting. There's no hook. Nadia, 801 Airbats, Excaflowne, Last Exile, and nearly everything Miyazaki has ever done, off the top of my head have "steampunk airship battles". That alone isn't interesting, that would be down to just the art. Every setting has been done, every story has been done. Its what you bring to it that is new and interesting and different that's key.
How many stories have blatantly ripped off Harry Potter since it became successful? How many card game based franchises have risen in the wake of Yugioh? Without carrying over any of its success? Because there's more to it than just the setting, more to it than just the basic idea.
Ideas are easy. Anyone could rant of a stream of them in a hurry. Even in Bakuman they do that all the time when brainstorming. They come up with dozens of concepts and 1-shots all the time.
But there's a huge, huge, HUGE difference between having an idea, having a great idea, having an idea people haven't seen done before, and having an idea that's marketable and can have an anime made of it.
and all they have are character designs, too. With powers incredibly unsuited for shonen. The black devil will go around mind-controlling people, and the white one will run after him unlocking their minds. it sounds moronic.
No. What they have are powers incredibly unsuited for shonen. That is the hook. That's what makes it unique, interesting, different from stories people have read a thousand times before. How they apply it, how they make it shonen, that's interesting.
Everyone on here immediately went "Oh, that sounds just like Death Note" (and that series exists in the Bakuman world) and Death Note is crazy interesting and full of battles that are all mental and rigging a set of fixed rules. Its one of the most fascinating shonen in years (tho it does fall apart in the second half.) Why? Because the characters aren't throwing fireballs or crumbling mountains… they're trying to trick people into revealing their name, or give away a key clue, or hide these facts. Still a battle, but not of the usual sort. (Early Yugioh had some of this too, before it became a card game manga.)
And it still ended up having action filled scenes with car chases, guns, squads of police and helicopters, and crazy demon monsters.
Well, it IS a shonen manga… I think its pretty neat how often they talk about storytelling techniques, and then proceed to apply them directly into the actual series. Stuf flike adding comedy, changing the artstyle to be wacky and do things that can only be done in manga, having a fight scene even if the authors don't really like having fight scenes, or a "oneshot that isn't a oneshot"... and its neat that way. They also genre hop quite a bit. For a while it seemed like they were going to tackle every genre of manga in the course of this series... while using their setting.
True, true… Bakuman does have a lot of that type of thing going on too, which is why it's still interesting to me as a story about two guys trying to make a great manga. It's just that it so often takes the "must beat Eiji" (or whoever the current threat is) road with the rating game that it's a little annoying. But I guess you can't avoid battle forever in Jump, eh? (I'm starting to think even the authors are trying to forget the whole "marriage as a goal" by now!)
I'm starting to think even the authors are trying to forget the whole "marriage as a goal" by now!
Well, thats because the girl in question has already achieved her dreams and is waiting for the shmucks to sort it out, and focusing on that too often will shed light on that fact.
Besides, its kind of an end-series goal. Once they're successful and have an anime… what then? That's been their goal from the start, after that...? The series will probably end shortly afterward with a "and then we were successful for many years to come." We might just be looking at the final arc gearing up now.
Or they might get married and things switch up a lot, but it seems unlikely.
Woah, I just watched Inception and you guys are debating about ideas and such. Coincidence? Probably.
I am obviously a faggot who doesn't know what he's talking about, and has noticeably bad taste. I apologize.
But I am still annoyed that we've barely seen any of these supposedly great manga, only people over-reacting to them. I know only hearing about the manga rather than seeing actual samples is nothing new for this manga, but the over-reacting seems to be a recent development. I worry for Hattori's heart every time he sees a name.
@RobbyBevard:
Obata explained what the title means in the… second? volume.
"Baku" is from
- Bakuhatsu(bomb)
- Bakuchi(gambling)
and Baku(monster which eat drams)He didn't say what "man" is for, but its probably from "manga".
So, the title means roughly "gambling on explosive dreams of manga". (The japanese speakers in the room can correct me, but that's my understanding of it.)
It doesn't seem like it would be a good title for their new story.
I never got to read the manga in "volumes". Only off online readings. But thanks for clearing that up. I didn't see that it was the Japanese habit of abbreviating longer terms.
I worry for Hattori's heart every time he sees a name.
Haha, me too. "IT'S SO UNBELIEVABLY INTERESTINGGggghhhhurk"
Hey, I'd read steampunk sky pirate adventures any day of the WEEK. A plot doesn't need to be detailed or deep to be effective.
What Robby is talking about is that something special, the x-factor that grabs you.
In order to make a hit, a work needs that.
That, or a shameful appeal to vapid teenaged girls with sparkling vampire chests.
Haha, me too. "IT'S SO UNBELIEVABLY INTERESTINGGggghhhhurk"
This is why I dropped Bakuman.
Reactions(and even discussions with battle plans) no longer feel believable, but more like necessary threads to proceed the plot.
@RobbyBevard:
Well, thats because the girl in question has already achieved her dreams and is waiting for the shmucks to sort it out, and focusing on that too often will shed light on that fact.
Besides, its kind of an end-series goal. Once they're successful and have an anime… what then? That's been their goal from the start, after that...? The series will probably end shortly afterward with a "and then we were successful for many years to come." We might just be looking at the final arc gearing up now.
Or they might get married and things switch up a lot, but it seems unlikely.
I predict a Ranma 1/2 style marriage ending chapter to troll the hell out of everyone.
Aaaaand…. Bakuman just became the most meta autobiography ever, as if it weren't already. Not sure how I feel about the yet unnamed Death Note clone. Gotta root for Eiji given that his story is original, and because if Ashirogi Muto were to hit it big with their new piece (and how can they not?), that would basically amount to the authors giving themselves a big pat on the back (or tug on the you-know-what).
Or they could take the high-road and have it be a massive failure, pointing out (in a humorously self-deprecating way) all the story's flaws.
EDIT: oh. with 152, we know it's called Reversi. Right... black and white...
New chapter is out. It was pretty interesting
! 692 votes is really impressive when you consider they're using a sample of 1000 voters with 3 seperate votes each. It means almost 70% of people had it in their top 3 manga for that week, and as they pointed out, this is even more impressive for a one-shot