Chapter 622: "The Pirate of Sun" Discussion
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Great chapter. Makes up for last week's chapter which I wasn't much of a fan of.
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we need a fishman in the strawHats now.. BUT PLS not Hodi..
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Edit: @igetownd:
So you're basically saying that Tiger is hurting himself in the end by striking out at the "powers that be".
However, Luffy also uses violence to as a correction device for the corrupt and wicked, wouldn't that hurt his goal of protecting his friends if "the corrupt" label him as "evil" and wage vengeance?
I think the basis of your argument is that Tiger has a race of people to protect, so he should do whatever he can to prevent harm. Using violent action for his sense of justice will backfire because he will be perpetuating the idea that fishmen are inherently violent and dangerous. On the other hand, Luffy is a man who keeps his friends close so he can protect them, but hides friendships he can't protect from the public.
Fisher Tiger's dream is "Freedom/Liberation for everyone."
Otohime's dream is "Peaceful reintegration with surface society leading to equal treatment for her people." So, Otohime's dream would eventually fulfill Tiger's dream as well, at least for fishmen and mermen.
However, by his actions Tiger made Otohime's dream impossible in the short term. He hardened the feelings of fishmen against humans and vice versa. This will lead to retaliation on both sides and would have spiraled into open warfare if Jinbe hadn't sacrificed himself and disbanded the Sun pirates.
Fisher Tiger's enemy is the WG, which everyone at FI views as "humans." Otohime's enemy is the enmity between fishmen and humans. If she (or her daughter) can defeat the hatred between the two races, she will succeed in freeing her people. That's the goal here.
If you really think that the violent destruction of the World Government will lead to freedom and equality for all, then Hodi is the real hero of this arc. The battle lines here aren't human vs fishmen or freedom fighters vs the WG, they're hatred vs reconciliation.
And despite his best efforts, Fisher Tiger spread hate.
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Does anyone think Foxy's ship is the one from pg.15?
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I had to do it, my fujoshi side forced me to :V
totally unfunny.
I LOVED that Chapter. Some people said they didn't liked the pacing of this chapter. Really? It was MUCH much better than last week. Finally we got the story in pictures on pages, not in text blocks.
I guess the three years jump was because nothing extremly interesting has had happened in that time.So I really loved that Chapter. I wish I could hug Koala.
I LOVE the Colorspread so much. LEGOOOO
And finally Oda gave the SHs something else to wear on a CS than their current FI Outfit. Well, I'm not satisfied with Nami's Outfit but whatever :P -
With reconciliation you make possible a return to the surface and integration with the human population. People who live/work/play together do not view each other as subhumans, which is a prerequisite for the type of slavery practiced by those at the slave auction house.
This kind of cultural shift is the only permanent to end slavery/subjugation of minority populations. Violence may free/revenge some, but they are easily replaced and this hardens the "us vs them" mentality that leads to further retaliation.
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That would perhaps stop fishmen/mermen being slaves (which I dont really believe), because if tenryuubyto wanted you they got you. Would that stop koala being a slave. Otohime ambition wouldnt really have effect on the slave life, even though they would join the world government. Because if the tenryuubito want you they get you.
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I love these flashbacks, the colorspread, everything about the chapter. JOY!
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I have just read it, really an incredible chapter, I wished I had cried a bit more with it, probably didn't because of the fast (but very good) pace, just shad some tears but it was really incredible and touching, awesome work.
Oh, well, Golden Week now… I'm totally anxious for the next chapter, awesome colorspread by the way.
And yes, really loved the chapter, everything on it. -
That would perhaps stop fishmen/mermen being slaves (which I dont really believe), because if tenryuubyto wanted you they got you. Would that stop koala being a slave. Otohime ambition wouldnt really have effect on the slave life, even though they would join the world government. Because if the tenryuubito want you they get you.
The goal for the fishman shouldn
t be to go against the WG, even when with the celestrial dragons and their behaviour to the fishman-race they sure are a target worth aiming at. The goal should be that the fishman are excepted by the general public..by every human who has prejudices. Only when they reach that humans aren
t afraid of them anymore and that they wont see them with different eyes they finally can life with them. It wouldn
t be much of a help to destroy the WG when still each human is scared and afraid of those"monsters".
Getting the belief that they are "monsters" out of the human minds is what they should be aiming for.
Sure its hard to see all that suffering and still trying to be friends with those, but that is the only way to finally achieve harmony…that
s what Otohime is realising.The WG itself is another problem which Luffy will change in the future, but still prejudices and aiming for revenge is the hardest to overcome for the fishman-race.
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Koala reminds me of Seta Sōjirō from Kenshin. That is probably his inspiration since Oda worked for (and killed) Nobuhiro Watsuki.
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@Don:
The goal for the fishman shouldn
t be to go against the WG, even when with the celestrial dragons and their behaviour to the fishman-race they sure are a target worth aiming at. The goal should be that the fishman are excepted by the general public..by every human who has prejudices. Only when they reach that humans aren
t afraid of them anymore and that they wont see them with different eyes they finally can life with them. It wouldn
t be much of a help to destroy the WG when still each human is scared and afraid of those"monsters".
Getting the belief that they are "monsters" out of the human minds is what they should be aiming for.
Sure its hard to see all that suffering and still trying to be friends with those, but that is the only way to finally achieve harmony…that
s what Otohime is realising.The WG itself is another problem which Luffy will change in the future, but still prejudices and aiming for revenge is the hardest to overcome for the fishman-race.
So the aim should be. It is allright that somebody else are made slaves if we are not made slaves.
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So the aim should be. It is allright that somebody else are made slaves if we are not made slaves.
It's not just us but every future generation, though.
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Fisher Tiger looks like the fishman version of Blackbeard.
Great chapter though. Oda is so clever with his plotting, throwing a little human girl in there to be taken home by fishmen, which will eventually be used as an example of symbolism between the two races.
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@THE:
Koala reminds me of Seta Sōjirō from Kenshin. That is probably his inspiration since Oda worked for (and killed) Nobuhiro Watsuki.
Ah yeah, I was getting Deja vu from the "slave child who forces him/herself to smile permanently" plot.
And yes, Oda worked as an assistant for Watsuki during those Rurouni Kenshin days. -
My guess is that citizens will think that Koala was branded by Tiger, not knowing the World Nobles do it to their slaves, and attack the Sun Pirates. Tiger will simply have them leave, the Marines will be called, the Marines capture Koala during the attack on the Sun Pirates. Tiger risks his life to save Koala from the Marines and begins to die. Despite bringing Koala back and saving her from the Marines, the citizens will still refuse to give blood and none of the Sun Pirates will have the same blood type.
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I like the marine with the long hair lol.
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So the aim should be. It is allright that somebody else are made slaves if we are not made slaves.
Well seeing how the humans in one piece, dont care as much that other humans are slaves. It kind of fits for now, until the heavenly dragons change their ways.
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So the aim should be. It is allright that somebody else are made slaves if we are not made slaves.
The aim should be to find a peaceful solution so that future generations can live in peace, even when that means you have to swallow your hatred, because the other side treated you wrong.
By revenging it or saying ,"the one side did it, so i also have the right to let them suffer", you just create a vicious circle where both sides will never be able to finally achieve piece.The tricky part here is that even between the human-race there are two sides..royals and the trash.(at Luffy`s flashback we were introduced to that entire point)
I appreaciate Fisher Tiger, because he wanted to make a quick end to all the suffering in front of his eyes and actually who can blaim him for that(still it
s better than doing nothing at all)…but like most actions which seems to be good, they actually aren
t at all for the long run.
As we see after Fisher Tigers actions actually nothing has changed..both sides belief even more adamantine that they have to be cruel to revenge or change something.
To get a real solution to that problem only Otohime has shown the right way ,but that seemed to be an utopie for Fisher Tiger, because he knew that changing someones belief is harder than anything else without forcing him.
He himself says that its hard for him to hold back his inner demons. But thats the case...it has to be without mean hidden agenda because of past events where the one side hurted the other one. Also the fishman have to understand that they want to life in peace with the whole humanity who aren
t all behind the celestrail dragons ideology.(hell, most of them don`t even know what happens there..and when they know only those who profit by them rly stand behind them..most of the humans turn their back to all the cruelity) -
Interesting chapter to say the least. I mean the story went in a direction I never would have predicted. But if this flashback is supposed to live up to all the hype, than that kid has to play an important role somehow.
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Edit: Fisher Tiger's dream is "Freedom/Liberation for everyone."
Otohime's dream is "Peaceful reintegration with surface society leading to equal treatment for her people." So, Otohime's dream would eventually fulfill Tiger's dream as well, at least for fishmen and mermen.
However, by his actions Tiger made Otohime's dream impossible in the short term. He hardened the feelings of fishmen against humans and vice versa. This will lead to retaliation on both sides and would have spiraled into open warfare if Jinbe hadn't sacrificed himself and disbanded the Sun pirates.
Fisher Tiger's enemy is the WG, which everyone at FI views as "humans." Otohime's enemy is the enmity between fishmen and humans. If she (or her daughter) can defeat the hatred between the two races, she will succeed in freeing her people. That's the goal here.
If you really think that the violent destruction of the World Government will lead to freedom and equality for all, then Hodi is the real hero of this arc. The battle lines here aren't human vs fishmen or freedom fighters vs the WG, they're hatred vs reconciliation.
And despite his best efforts, Fisher Tiger spread hate.
Well, Tiger used violence to immediately free the slaves that were held at Mariejois, and in order to protect them, formed the Sun Pirates. He said that he wanted freedom and liberation for all, right? However, as it were, many of the slaves that he freed would eventually be shipped right on back the the Celestial Dragons. The Rear Admiral that was following Tiger told him to give back the slaves that he freed. It seems that is one of the primary objectives of the Marines in handling the Tiger business right now. So he had little choice (at least, he thought so) to form a pirate crew and protect them. HOWEVER, I do believe you make a valid point. I think Tiger set out with the Sun Pirates too early. The Fishmen that he has with him think that this is a campaign of retaliation and revenge, and that is the exact OPPOSITE of what Tiger wants. He did, in fact, create more hate and rancor within his pirate crew (and by extension, even all of Fishman island which severely hampered Queen Otohime's efforts) by going out and fighting humans without first making sure the people in the crew knew exactly why they were fighting. The argument between him and Arlong is good proof of this. They had been a crew for a good bit and only then did he disclose what their goal as the Sun pirates were. Again, though, Tiger didn't have much time to do this. He tried to protect the slaves as soon as he released them and pretty much ever since then, has been battling humans directly.
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Funny. Daruma's hat kinda looks like Chopper's first hat.
He kinda resembles the doctor as well
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The Koala part seemed a bit poorly done, but the rest was kind great. Getting the feeling this will be my favorite flashback in One Piece.
Btw, seeing how small Shirahoshi was compared to Neptune and how big she was compared to Otohime…
seriously, how the fuck did they... did it?
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It's been a while since I wanted to cry by reading a comic. The kid's story was very touching. This chapter smells so much like Epicness.
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:whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:
:ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:
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i wonder what the impotance of the kid will be later on a human with the mark of a fishman pirate? as to be a big deal
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@THE:
Koala reminds me of Seta Sōjirō from Kenshin. That is probably his inspiration since Oda worked for (and killed) Nobuhiro Watsuki.
I was just about to say that!
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@Mr.333:
:whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:
:ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:
Well, thanks, my nightmares were getting boring.
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@.access:
The Koala part seemed a bit poorly done, but the rest was kind great. Getting the feeling this will be my favorite flashback in One Piece.
Btw, seeing how small Shirahoshi was compared to Neptune and how big she was compared to Otohime…
seriously, how the fuck did they... did it?
He has a very small penis when his fins split or however it's done.
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Finally Ichigo is in the place that he deserves.
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He has a very small penis when his fins split or however it's done.
@.access:
Btw, seeing how small Shirahoshi was compared to Neptune and how big she was compared to Otohime…
seriously, how the fuck did they... did it?
Isn't it possible that they reproduce like fish? I know Oda said Fishfolk are mammals but it's still possible that Merfolk reproduce like fish. It doesn't paint a pretty picture but it would still be possible for them to interbreed each others species.
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I see you refer to Bleach now being 4th instead of Toriko :)
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I still don't like the pacing of this flashback. It feels very choppy.
I must be one of the few who's not creeped out by Koala. She's cute. Very touching last panel. She'll definitely play a role in the current time line after the flashback (I really don't think she'll die)
Kizaru looks awesome. He should put back on that hat and smoke all the time. Kizaru's inclusion makes me believe he'll be the one to kill Fisher Tiger.
What rank was Strawberry before the timeskip? Vice-Admiral? If so, I'd say he's a good contender for Admiral.
Also, I saw someone mention this, but that looks like Decken on the bottom right panel on page five. Interesting if it is.
Like this chapter and like where it is going. Hopefully this wonky pacing is sorted out next chapter.
EDIT: To the guy below, I really don't think Arlong killed Otohime. I don't think Jinbe would allow him to go to the East Blue peacefully after that.
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Also, I have a theory, Arlong killed Otohime ….
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Magnificent chapter.
Fisher is still awesome and Koala is creepy. Very touching ending though, didn't expect this much content in the chapter so this was a nice surprise. I also get the feeling that Koala's parents abandoned her or left or died or something to that extent. Just a feeling.
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Another great chapter from the seinen manga, One Piece.
What? This is still shounen? I really can't tell anymore.
Anywho, the first part of the chapter was kind of dull to me, but I must admit that Koala kid hit me like a ton of bricks. The moment I saw those pages my breathing literally stopped… so that's how far Oda is going to show us what slavery is all about, huh?
The lego cover was amazing… loved Sanji's idea the most.
Young Dosun was really derpy-looking.
This chapter gives me just enough to meet OP standards, and the last part went above.
I must admit that Arlong's actions are harsher in hindsight, considering what he did to Cocoyashi, after he saw what slavery was like directly in its blankly smiling face. He's worse than Macro now to me.
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I honestly thought that this flashback would be about Tiger freeing the slaves. Not about him delivering a former one to her long lost home. But oh well, I'm sure it'll tie up some loose ends. Ones that are essential to plot.
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So I just went to the One Piece Wiki for the first time in months. Their still being the annoying pricks that they are and refuse to believe that the mangastream translation is incorrect and keep calling Koala a boy.
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Also, I have a theory, Arlong killed Otohime ….
Many people suggest that arlong will kill otohime but i personally think it will be Hyouzou, it would just fit for him, and Arlong really dont have any reasons to kill the queen, imo. He showed no tendencies to do so.
Anyway, this chapter is pure win, the highlight for me personally was Hodi with his teen gang <3 even i wished they would have been a bit younger :/ Curious also what will happen on this island of Koala, damn this girl is creepy, :(
Hmmi may be the only one but i found the scene with Jinbe, Fisher Tiger and Arlong pretty funny, typical older brother-younger brother scene xD Arlong i like much more after this flashback :D Even he comes out as much bigger asshole as before, i like bad guys 8D
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Another great chapter from the seinen manga, One Piece.
What? This is still shounen? I really can't tell anymore.
The terms "Seinen" and "Shonen" is just the demographic. Did you know K-On! is seinen and manga like Shigurui and Franken Fran of published in Shonen manga?
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@The:
Also, I saw someone mention this, but that looks like Decken on the bottom right panel on page five. Interesting if it is.
I'm pretty sure that's the minister of the right (the not-seahorse)
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I see you refer to Bleach now being 4th instead of Toriko :)
You know about an year ago, I did say I wanted to see Toriko replace Bleach as the third. :ninja:
The terms "Seinen" and "Shonen" is just the demographic. Did you know K-On! is seinen and manga like Shigurui and Franken Fran of published in Shonen manga?
Shigurui is debatable. Champion RED turned into a seinen magazine halfway through.
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With reconciliation you make possible a return to the surface and integration with the human population. People who live/work/play together do not view each other as subhumans, which is a prerequisite for the type of slavery practiced by those at the slave auction house.
This kind of cultural shift is the only permanent to end slavery/subjugation of minority populations. Violence may free/revenge some, but they are easily replaced and this hardens the "us vs them" mentality that leads to further retaliation.
If Otohime had succeeded, the fishmen would have moved to the surface, become active members of the World Government, and received the same Marine defense against attack as any other WG nation. It would be a difficult political road to obtain equal treatment, but it is the ONLY road. Instead, fishmen are still ostracized and hated by the public, and the only guard against WG attack was Jinbe's role as a Shichibukai.
It's not the violence that would have pissed off Luffy so much as Tiger's abuse of both his own and Otohime's dream.
And you all see where this is going, don't you? At the end of the arc, Luffy will manifest Otohime's dream by destroying Fishman Island. This will force the fishmen to reintegrate with those on the surface whether they want to or not.
1. Otohime's dream may not work, given the politics of the government. The discrimination against fishmen will still occur. The government may pay little heed to the distress of FI when pirates invade and kidnap mermaids. If they do create a Marine station at FI, it's very probable that the Marines will abuse their power and "tax" the civilians for "protection". No one will stop that in the WG, because they'll still see fishmen as inferior beings.
2. The whole basic of integration with humans is that they need to live together. Perhaps in on an island where it is not in direct control from the government.
However, Tiger isn't abusing his dream because his dream is the abolition of slavery. Otohime's dream is the abolition of racism and discrimination.
I don't like the idea of Luffy actually destroying the island, too. Robin will be revolted by that act. However, Luffy could destroy the segregation on Fishmen Island, so that humans can directly interact with fishmen, instead of being isolated in a harbor.
@boiga:Edit: Fisher Tiger's dream is "Freedom/Liberation for everyone."
Otohime's dream is "Peaceful reintegration with surface society leading to equal treatment for her people." So, Otohime's dream would eventually fulfill Tiger's dream as well, at least for fishmen and mermen.
However, by his actions Tiger made Otohime's dream impossible in the short term. He hardened the feelings of fishmen against humans and vice versa. This will lead to retaliation on both sides and would have spiraled into open warfare if Jinbe hadn't sacrificed himself and disbanded the Sun pirates.
Fisher Tiger's enemy is the WG, which everyone at FI views as "humans." Otohime's enemy is the enmity between fishmen and humans. If she (or her daughter) can defeat the hatred between the two races, she will succeed in freeing her people. That's the goal here.
If you really think that the violent destruction of the World Government will lead to freedom and equality for all, then Hodi is the real hero of this arc. The battle lines here aren't human vs fishmen or freedom fighters vs the WG, they're hatred vs reconciliation.
And despite his best efforts, Fisher Tiger spread hate.
Otohime's efforts come to a stumbling block when confronting the world's powers. In addition to the Tenryuubito, the nobles of major nations like Goa Kingdom have an air of pompousness that will ridicule and reject the notion of racial equality. Tiger should have consulted with Otohime IMO, so that she can work a proposal to live equally. I'm surprised that he didn't, and also disappointed that Neptune just sat idly and watched his wife's dream shatter to pieces when Tiger waged war.
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The terms "Seinen" and "Shonen" is just the demographic. Did you know K-On! is seinen and manga like Shigurui and Franken Fran of published in Shonen manga?
I think he just wants to say that OP got much more "darker" and has more adult topics in the story.
Just like i predicted it to be in the NW(even when we arent there yet), because OP develops more and more to be a bit less childish, even when Oda always says it
s for boys.
But by that i don`t mean in terms of humour, but sure about some more serious topics that are now treated in the story and which are about stuff that goes beyond a simple childish story–by that not saying great literature,though--) -
How many known characters in the One Piece world are 23, like Koala would be assuming she's alive? I feel like fishing for coincidences.
I don't know how much involvement I'd want Kizaru to have in this flashback. He could easily just be a cameo here, but what if he later becomes involved in Tiger's death? Why are his only major appearances outside of the war related to slavery and the Tenryuubito? Is he going to be a vital character in this storyline (that is, the slavery in One Piece not just the Fishman ISland arc), and later protector of those Tenryuubito again? Cause if so, that might bump Kizaru to one of the biggest bastards amongst the three Admirals.
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The more I read the recent chapters, the more I want to see the real reason Arlong hates humans so much. Jimbe understandably hates them for their action of slavery, but doesn't seem to have a personal pivotal point that made him hate humans. I get the impression that this voyage with Tiger is the first Jimbe is exposed to humans for any duration.
He met all the worse examples of humanity first, but Koala is the first average human he has meet.Arlong, because of what Hatchi says about the dream to live on the surface, seems to have a longer history of encounters (ie made trips to the surface) with humans, none of them being positive. I'm not justifying his future actions, but getting to the bottom of his hatred might be the key to stopping Hodi's gang.
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OP has that great balance between being remarkably childish while dealing with many darker/more adult themes. It's one of the many reasons why both children and now adults are still so fascinated with it even years after it began. It's not just one generation growing with the series anymore (otherwise we'd be seeing the same kind of thing with the other "big" manga).
Seeing more insight into the discrimination of the OP world in this chapter develops the setting so much, not only characters that we've only hear of from word of mouth and legends. Usually in magna we don't get so much background on the world as on the characters alone.
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How many known characters in the One Piece world are 23, like Koala would be assuming she's alive? I feel like fishing for coincidences.
I don't know how much involvement I'd want Kizaru to have in this flashback. He could easily just be a cameo here, but what if he later becomes involved in Tiger's death?
Kind of hard to count how many of 23 when we don't know a majority of the cast's ages. I like the idea the Koala is the scuba girl in Mermaid Cove. Even if it might be unlikely.
As for Kizaru: It could be that this is what got him the promotion to admiral. Or at least was a large part of it. The Ohara incident was Akainu's wasn't it?
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Oh just noticed. The hat, it was used in that silhouete we got of him at Longringlongland.
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^I suspect that your last sentence there may be precisely it. He's already proven himself pretty dickish, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be delighted to see, say, endgame Sanji rearrange his face. If he were to also be the one who ends the life of Tiger, the "hero" of Fishmen, of Jimbei, and a character who to me seems to be in the process of being set up as likeable, brave, heroic and sympathetic… that could certainly elevate his I-want-to-see-him-get-his-face-kicked-in factor to a very very high degree. And heaven knows Oda's villains typically has that in spades.
edit: ugh, that was to onemoment. Didn't expect so many to post in between >_>