The Question is: Is Rock Lee going to win a fight, till the manga ends?
Naruto Thread IV
-
-
The Question is: Is Rock Lee going to win a fight, till the manga ends?
Does hard work still matter?
-
Who is this guy cause he's bleeping awesome.
I agree, he's fucking awesome!!!
best member of 2011 award should go to him
-
@Kareem:
It's more along the lines of, we don't want Sasuke to be redeemed because for many of us he is what has ruined the series and he has been unlikeable for so long. Those were not issues for Gaara.
This doesn't really make any sense….it's one thing to not like a character, but using that as a reason as to why he shouldn't be redeemable, even though the facts in the manga show that Sasuke was driven into the state that he is in, starting from early on in the series when Itachi mind-raped him with Tsukyomi, to Oro and the Cursed Seal and Madara telling him the truth about Itachi's actions, which in turn basically makes Sasuke more of a victim of circumstance, much like Gaara, is odd.
Likeable or not, there is no reason as to why Sasuke is any less redeemable as Gaara. I mean, by your definition of "bad character" I guess that Gaara was as just as unlikeable as Sasuke, seeing that he even gave his siblings the cold shoulder, and said that he only felt alive when he killed, seeing that it ensured his existence...yet his redemption was acceptable (Beatdown and then the talk from Naruto) :ninja:
To give an example of how bad of a character Sasuke is, he's hated not only in the real world but by characters in the manga. Shikamaru said that the rest of the Konoha 11 decided to kill Sasuke because he had become too unstable iirc. And so Naruto's response is to hyperventilate as if to throw his arms up and go "I DON'T LIKE THIS!"
Oh God. This guy is our protagonist. What the hell happened to my awesome ninja manga!lol
This is very funny (But more confusing, maybe I'm missing something), Shikamaru/Konoha higher ups deciding that Sasuke is a threat because of the fact that he has joined up with Akatsuki and attacked the Kage summit makes his character bad lol. Is it supposed to make his character good?
Of course they decided that he is no longer any good, he betrayed the village and his friends for the sake of power, and has now aligned himself with the main antagonist of the series, making himself a villain. How exactly does that make his character "bad"? Also, how does that show that he is hated by other characters in the manga? I'm not really sure what your point is here.
As for Naruto's panic attack, nice way to oversimplify what went on. He was just in a position where he felt that there was no hope of bringing Sasuke back. I mean think about it, The Konha higher ups who previously let Naruto try to bring back Sasuke before have now decided that Sasuke should be taken out, k11 who, previously helped Naruto try to rescue Sasuke back in part 1 were also dead set on killing Sasuke, even Sakura did a fake confession in order to stop Naruto from going after Sasuke…and then went to kill Sasuke behind his back. Even Gaara, came and told Naruto that he should see Sasuke for what he is.
On top of all of that, Naruto hears that Sasuke is in Akatsuki and that he kidnapped Killer B and became a wanted criminal. Sasuke was becoming less and less like the Sasuke he knew, to the point that maybe even he isn't sure that he can "bring Sasuke back".
It was all of these factors that led to Naruto doing a "I'm comin' Elizabeth!" and having a panic attack. He was basically being pressured to go back on his word (To bring Sasuke back), something that Naruto has said time and time again that he will never do no matter what.
-
The Question is: Is Rock Lee going to win a fight, till the manga ends?
I've already put my money on him fighting nagato, guy who can use all ninjutsu's vs the guy who can't use any and relies on power, plus it would make sense as there's no other reason kishi would have had rock lee's team conveniently away when pein was attacking,
I've already laid my all time favorite scenerio to happen
nagato comes to the battle field and starts destroying shit, more powerful this time because he doesn't have to share all his charka with 6 bodies
anyways ninjas are fighting civilians are running away it's total chaos then….. Lee jumps down from a building, starts opening gates, sakura looks at him
Sakura says "Lee don't he's too strong he took out the whole village before, only naruto can stop him"
Lee says "Your wrong about two things, one the whole village wasn't there my team was away.... and second Naruto's not the only one who can stop him"
He goes 8 gates gets into a huge battle with nagato in which he wins AND IT‘S THE MOST EPIC FIGHT EVER, even though he went 8 gates he lives from some deus ex machina (probably tsunde giving her life like puppet lady did or garaa)
he wakes up sakura's there and says how much she loves him, He back hands her out the window and calmly but in a very masculine voice says "bitch get me a sandwhich", see's hinata and says "let me show you what a real man's like" walks out with her
the rest of the series is composed of raikage, killer bee, lee, hinata, guy, zetsu, and kisame killing huge hordes of zombie sasuke's as far as the eye can see and comes back as one of the best series
-
I agree, he's fucking awesome!!!
best member of 2011 award should go to him
Well thanks that would be nice to be the best member of 2011. But you have to remember that 2011 isn't even a quarter over at this point and I've only been a member for a few days. Glad to know people like me though, when I first started browing AP Forums you were my favorite member Choperman.
-
Alright I am going to say this because I really want to and I don't think I've established how much I hate Sasuke and why he ruined a series I really liked. I know I've already said that I hate Sasuke but bear with me here, I think I have something new.
Why do I hate Sasuke? Is it his personality? Yes, but there's more to it than that? Is it because he ruined the series? Yes, he is the cancer of Naruto, but why exactly does he ruin the series?Because he destroy's most everything interesting about the manga. That is why I hate him. He kills off the villains who had potential (Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi, Danzo). I know Itachi was going to die eventually but you can't deny he bit the dust sooner than expected. He takes away paneltime from character infinitely more interesting than him. (Rock Lee, most notably but there were others). I get that he is the deuteragonist (2nd most important character) but does he still need 100+ chapters focusing mainly on him? Especially when there are so many other characters with potential.
Naruto's greatest strength was its large and varied cast most of whom have been ignored in favor of Sasuke. Kishimoto lost interest in the aspects of his series I actually found interesting and has focused on things I don't care about. That is why Naruto is a waste of potential for me and many other people.
Now people have said that Naruto's cast is so large there is no way Kishimoto could focus on all or most of them without people losing interest. I'm just going to say that's not true. Not I don't think it's true, not I disagree. That's not true. I have read other series with very large casts where the mangaka has been able to keep track of the various characters and not give one or two characters the vast majority of focus. Examples include One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist and Negima. He had all this time he could have focused on the other characters.
I remember the great arcs, Chunin Exams, Sasuke Retrieval those were the arcs that made Naruto popular. And I see why they were popular because there were so many characters, that if you didn't like Naruto you could just like Shikamaru. If you didn't like Sakura you could just like Hinata. If you didn't like Sasuke you could just like Rock Lee (Glorious Lee!) Naruto doesn't have that anymore because all of the other characters besides maybe Shika and Gaara are pointless now. Kind of depressing because they were interesting, likeable and had potential for interesting stories. Great job Kishi, good going. I'm going to read series where the writer actually puts out consistently good work. I'm off to read Negima.
-
The Question is: Is Rock Lee going to win a fight, till the manga ends?
Hell, what would really piss me off is if Lee finally won a fight and then died afterwards.
-
@Bad:
1st I have to admit here that I'm no expert in Naruto discussions (specially between Naruto fans), but is Itachi really "loved", "likable" or "redeemable"?
Itachi is like the "most" despised character in Naruto for me, I'm a bit surprised that people actually like him.Yes, people love Itachi. My experience in Naruto forums has led me to believe well over half the fanbase love the guy. He's alright with me.
-
I always wondered about him: Was he originally always just a villain or did rabid fangirls force Kishi into a half-assed redemption thing?
-
@S.C.:
I always wondered about him: Was he originally always just a villain or did rabid fangirls force Kishi into a half-assed redemption thing?
Ehhhh…I think Kishi planned in advance for the redemption thing. At least, I hope so. For something that big to be unplanned and fan-base influenced would lead to major plotholes and would make no sense.
-
Ehhhh…I think Kishi planned in advance for the redemption thing. At least, I hope so. For something that big to be unplanned and fan-base influenced would lead to major plotholes and would make no sense.
It was unplanned. Don't kid yourself, there was like no foreshadowing.
-
Yes, people love Itachi. My experience in Naruto forums has led me to believe well over half the fanbase love the guy. He's alright with me.
Really?
Let’s see:
[HIDE]The guy killed his tribe for the village, but he let his brother go b/c his brother was more important than the very same village (then again why did you kill your tribe you moron?). And if we suppose that this made sense; He does his best to turn his young brother into an emo obsessed with revenge for no reason but to make him have the MS (as if having the MS is more important than being mentally stable).I’ll assume that at this point all he cares about is making his brother strong, he’s not interested at all what his brother will actually use this strength for (otherwise he would have let him have a “normal” life in Konoha instead of driving him to go loco), so for what reason will Sasuke use his strength should be of no concern to Itachi.
But wait wait wait, it gets better; Itachi for some reason gives some power or technique to Naruto that presumably allow him to defeat Sasuke (WHY??? I mean SERIOUSLY!!!).& to top it all, Great Itachi fears Madara influence on Sasuke, so he came up with a plan: ONE AUTO TECHNIQUE will kill the guy who survived fights with no less than 2 kages and lived for a century at least, he bet that he’ll defeat Madara through Sasuke with ONE TECHNIQUE… How GENUIS is that…
[/HIDE]
I’m not defending Sasuke here (as he himself is a …..), but I think if it wasn’t for Itachi's redemption Naruto would have been MUCH better. Itachi being just a villain like Uro would have made much more sense. -
There was also the slight problem of him mind crushing Sasuke twice, which probably turned him crazy more then anything.
-
@S.C.:
There was also the slight problem of him mind crushing Sasuke twice, which probably turned him crazy more then anything.
Agreed, I just wanted to take the short way & avoid the debate that he did it out of "love" (so that Sasuke would come after him and kill him, hence getting the MS), even though I believe that Sasuke killing Naruto for the MS instead of hunting after Itachi was the more "plausible" option.
-
Kareem you got to be kidding me. People suspected Itachi being a good guy way before the big reveal. Itachi being good and Minato being Naruto father was the big theorys everyone had back in like 2007. Go to google and beach Itachi being a good guy and u will get hits from way before the reveal. Lol no forshadowing. Lmao is this a joke? Ohh I will kill everyone including kids and my mother, but hey I let u leave for no real reason. Meets again in the village. I will just brat you up a little instead of killing you. Ohh lame ass reason to kill everyone he told Sasuke. Never shown what his father ordered him to do that last day. Never shown how he actually killed everyone. Why the uchia was acting weird.etc….... I can go on and on. Itachi attack was never made cleared. This probably had the most forshadowing. Kareem something like Sasuke hawk summoning came out if nowhere, but this didn't. Even Kakashi said Itachi could of killed him if he wanted. Kareem
In terms of Itachi character himself. I like him, he had make a tough decision for the sake of his village.
-
Kareem you got to be kidding me. People suspected Itachi being a good guy way before the big reveal. Itachi being good and Minato being Naruto father was the big theorys everyone had back in like 2007. Go to google and beach Itachi being a good guy and u will get hits from way before the reveal. Lol no forshadowing. Lmao is this a joke? Ohh I will kill everyone including kids and my mother, but hey I let u leave for no real reason. Meets again in the village. I will just brat you up a little instead of killing you. Ohh lame ass reason to kill everyone he told Sasuke. Never shown what his father ordered him to do that last day. Never shown how he actually killed everyone. Why the uchia was acting weird.etc….... I can go on and on. Itachi attack was never made cleared. This probably had the most forshadowing. Kareem something like Sasuke hawk summoning came out if nowhere, but this didn't. Even Kakashi said Itachi could of killed him if he wanted. Kareem
In terms of Itachi character himself. I like him, he had make a tough decision for the sake of his village.
i1A3JzB-Jow .
-
Kareem you got to be kidding me. People suspected Itachi being a good guy way before the big reveal. Itachi being good and Minato being Naruto father was the big theorys everyone had back in like 2007. Go to google and beach Itachi being a good guy and u will get hits from way before the reveal. Lol no forshadowing. Lmao is this a joke? Ohh I will kill everyone including kids and my mother, but hey I let u leave for no real reason. Meets again in the village. I will just brat you up a little instead of killing you. Ohh lame ass reason to kill everyone he told Sasuke. Never shown what his father ordered him to do that last day. Never shown how he actually killed everyone. Why the uchia was acting weird.etc….... I can go on and on. Itachi attack was never made cleared. This probably had the most forshadowing. Kareem something like Sasuke hawk summoning came out if nowhere, but this didn't. Even Kakashi said Itachi could of killed him if he wanted. Kareem
In terms of Itachi character himself. I like him, he had make a tough decision for the sake of his village.
This right here is absolute shit.
-
Juju I don't even want you banned I want your doctors to give you your medicine, but this time watch you swallow it because you obviously spit it out and its affecting you; I fear for your sanity.
-
In terms of Itachi character himself. I like him, he had make a tough decision for the sake of his village.
Sure, until he turns around and drive his brother to go nuts by repeatedly raping him and telling him that hatred is the only way to become strong.
If Itachi was any "good" he would have left without creating that dramatic complex to Sasuke which led to him become the psycho that he is right now.
-
Why are people seriously discussing Itachi and his true Gandhi Sasuke loving nature. That reveal was the biggest, fattest, most ham fisted retcon I've ever seen- easily Aizen trolling level- and it is only worthy of scorn.
Whenever people mention "Itachi was a good guy!" all I can think of are the mind-numbingly horrible Madara Storytime! in a dark cave chapters, where logic and continuity were assaulted with every sentence. uuurgh
Yeah, the new status quo is that Itachi is basically a saint, but he wasn't prior to that inane conversation because Kishi forgot to setup the horribly cliched Good guy deep down deathbed reveal.
-
Actually, I'm going to invite a lot of scorn by saying this, but I never thought Itachi was a bad guy. Yes, way back in part 1. My friends and I argued over it extensively.
After we saw Sasuke's flashback, it became pretty clear that there were some other factors at play beyond Itachi just getting fed up with the clan and wanting to test his limits. There were too many moments where his expression was changing subtly or he was clearly pausing because of some internal conflict. And all his interactions with Sasuke were very plainly designed to hint that he loved his brother, but had some stuff going on that was too adult for the kid to understand. And it was clear that when Sasuke found Itachi the night he slaughtered the clan, it was something he didn't want him to see.
There were plenty, plenty of opportunities for Itachi to be evil in Part 1, especially compared to other characters, like Orochimaru but each time he was like "we're not here to start a fight." And the twisted, "hate me, grow stronger and kill me" speech was clearly being given to Sasuke for a reason. I never felt he was taunting Sasuke just to taunt him.
That said: the whole superpacifism, protecting Sasuke from Orochimaru, protecting Sasuke from Madara deal was NOT convincing. I think Kishimoto definitely hamfisted and bungled that by trying to add too much redemption to the character. But him taking out the Uchiha clan for the sake of the village? There's definitely groundwork for that. THAT, I can buy.
-
Kareem you got to be kidding me. People suspected Itachi being a good guy way before the big reveal. Itachi being good and Minato being Naruto father was the big theorys everyone had back in like 2007. Go to google and beach Itachi being a good guy and u will get hits from way before the reveal. Lol no forshadowing. Lmao is this a joke? Ohh I will kill everyone including kids and my mother, but hey I let u leave for no real reason. Meets again in the village. I will just brat you up a little instead of killing you. Ohh lame ass reason to kill everyone he told Sasuke. Never shown what his father ordered him to do that last day. Never shown how he actually killed everyone. Why the uchia was acting weird.etc….... I can go on and on. Itachi attack was never made cleared. This probably had the most forshadowing. Kareem something like Sasuke hawk summoning came out if nowhere, but this didn't. Even Kakashi said Itachi could of killed him if he wanted. Kareem
In terms of Itachi character himself. I like him, he had make a tough decision for the sake of his village.
There's still several major issues which no one could have seen coming, such as:
-the Third Hokage effectively allowing genocide by sitting back and letting two or three people who he outranks run the show
-the Uchihas planning a coup d'etat, something which was never even hinted at before
-the Uchihas being neglected at all - from the early chapters, one would get the impression that they were the beloved superstars of Konoha before Itachi killed them allIn order for the "Itachi was a good guy all along" plot twist to work, many characters had to act completely out-of-character or contradictory to what was shown earlier in the series. Most of the people who theorized it in the first place were probably Itachi fans who felt that he couldn't have done anything wrong - there are people who try to make excuses for HIDAN, for crying out loud!
With a fandom as large as Naruto's is, and the series being so long and having so many characters, some theories would have to turn out to be right. It's like trying to hit a target with a limitless supply of darts - most of them are going to be way off-base, but occasionally, a few will hit. Like, to use an example that was described on this very forum, the "ten-tailed beast in the moon" thing. Sure, it was a joke, but it turned out to be correct.
Also, the Fourth Hokage being Naruto's father seemed quite obvious before it was revealed, given that they basically looked exactly the same.
-
Exactly @Silence. I mean after the flashback was shown it was clear the something suspect was going on behind the scenes. Itachi even waited until Sasuke left the village to kill everyone. His Dad was giving him secret speeches in the back room. If he was a stone cold killer he would of killed Sasuke ass right their. Also had a chance to kill him in the apartment, but just roughed him up a bit. The Uchia was clearly up to something behind the scenes and Itachi father was in the middle of it. I had the same theory too. He also didn't kill Kakashi and Kakashi was wondering why. Why wouldn't he be protecting him from Oro and Madara? Remember even when he left he threaten them not to kill Sasuke. The elders could of take him out easily. He was like 8 years old then.
@Raccy wats shit about it? Yea i know you can't answer because you have no comeback other then insults.@Nobodyman i owned you so much times since i cameback i starting to feel sorry for you.
@The Daz Kishi did set it up. Refer to my post and Silence. LMAO Itachi wasn't a saint. This guy killed bystanders basically. He was a ninja who has seen war and destruction throughout his life. He was a loyal ninja who had to make a decision. Go to a civil war or stop it. Either decision he screwed and people die. LOL he wasn't no saint through. He a freaking killer IMO. He killed kids IDC wat his reason is. Kishi never potrayed him has a saint. Just a ninja who had to make a decisio
-
The biggest issue in the whole "Itachi is a good guy"-twist for me is, that he still did unrepairable damage to Sasuke, torturing him with the image of his own fucking parents and trapping him into a dimension of mindfuck.
He really didn't expect his brother to go totally nuts after these experiences, probably ruining his life and making his whole existence miserable? -
Juju is right about that. There were multitudes of theories dealing with Itachi being a "good guy", years before it was revealed. There was a general consensus that Itachi's shady past was too shady and there was still something unrevealed.
@Kareem:
It was unplanned. Don't kid yourself, there was like no foreshadowing.
Could you offer up any proof as to how this was unplanned? The best way to go about this is to show me at least 1 plothole which was created thanks to Kishi suddenly making Itachi "redeemable", in some people's eyes, thanks to his little sob story reveal by Madara. Of course I should not be able to counteract your argument and the plothole has to be an actual plothole.
As of right now I see no continuity issues in the story thanks to Kishi's supposedly impromptu urge to make Itachi a "good guy". That right there shows me Kishi planned this or no way it would have weaved seamelessly into story, despite how people personally feel about it. You don't make something this big up on the spur of the moment without screwing something else up somewhere else in the story. Retconning ensues.
@Bad:
Really?
Let’s see:
[hide]The guy killed his tribe for the village, but he let his brother go b/c his brother was more important than the very same village (then again why did you kill your tribe you moron?). And if we suppose that this made sense; He does his best to turn his young brother into an emo obsessed with revenge for no reason but to make him have the MS (as if having the MS is more important than being mentally stable).I’ll assume that at this point all he cares about is making his brother strong, he’s not interested at all what his brother will actually use this strength for (otherwise he would have let him have a “normal” life in Konoha instead of driving him to go loco), so for what reason will Sasuke use his strength should be of no concern to Itachi.
But wait wait wait, it gets better; Itachi for some reason gives some power or technique to Naruto that presumably allow him to defeat Sasuke (WHY??? I mean SERIOUSLY!!!).& to top it all, Great Itachi fears Madara influence on Sasuke, so he came up with a plan: ONE AUTO TECHNIQUE will kill the guy who survived fights with no less than 2 kages and lived for a century at least, he bet that he’ll defeat Madara through Sasuke with ONE TECHNIQUE… How GENUIS is that…
[/hide]
I’m not defending Sasuke here (as he himself is a …..), but I think if it wasn’t for Itachi's redemption Naruto would have been MUCH better. Itachi being just a villain like Uro would have made much more sense.Yes, really. I don't know what to say beyond that. If people like Itachi that's their thing. Both of us can be baffled all day long but it won't change a thing and it's not bad to like a fictional character, no matter how much people disagree with you.
-
Actually, I'm going to invite a lot of scorn by saying this, but I never thought Itachi was a bad guy. Yes, way back in part 1. My friends and I argued over it extensively.
Why? At least you give nive theory with good reasons rather than just blindly said Itachi was a good guy all along..:wassat:
After we saw Sasuke's flashback, it became pretty clear that there were some other factors at play beyond Itachi just getting fed up with the clan and wanting to test his limits. There were too many moments where his expression was changing subtly or he was clearly pausing because of some internal conflict. And all his interactions with Sasuke were very plainly designed to hint that he loved his brother, but had some stuff going on that was too adult for the kid to understand. And it was clear that when Sasuke found Itachi the night he slaughtered the clan, it was something he didn't want him to see.
There were plenty, plenty of opportunities for Itachi to be evil in Part 1, especially compared to other characters, like Orochimaru but each time he was like "we're not here to start a fight." And the twisted, "hate me, grow stronger and kill me" speech was clearly being given to Sasuke for a reason. I never felt he was taunting Sasuke just to taunt him.
yeah, this was what iflet too that time, but i just don't really think Itachi was definitely a good guy. i just thought there was 50/50 chance that he was a good guy. but still what he did to sasuke in that hotel, was not appropriate. If sasuke still a little kid, maybe just like you said, Sasuke maybe cannot understand, but Sasuke is already grown up. at least in Kishi part he can create some kind of hint that there was something about Itachi for Sasuke to realize in the future rather than just adding the flashback to Sasuke memory out of nowhere after Itachi was dead and Madara bullshit story, to justify that Itachi was a good guy all along. Kishi doesn't even mention anything about Danzo during part 1 but suddenly he tide him with Itachi's story.
-
@Megadoomer The 3rd isn't perfect he even let Oro go. The leaf has shown to have their own dirty laundry just like all the village. Just because the main character is from their doesn't mean they are perfect. Only main characters make the right decisions 90%of the time. Sometimes they don't like Goku letting Gotenks fight Buu instead of killing him when he first went ssj3. Vegeta is allowed to kill people and do dumbshit every arc. You also have to remember Itachi was reporting to the 3rd/Elders about the Uchia movements. He was still arguing finding another solution. The 3rd makes mistakes just like the other Hokages made mistakes. The 2nd spyed on them which led them to feel like animals.
The coup was hinted at some. Itachi father kept talking to him in private and he would look at Sasuke Sasuke with a blank stare everytime he asked him wat happened. He just pokes him in the head and leaves because he new wat he had to do.
It was a coverup obviously. Why would they leak that to the people? Yep its not that hard to believe a gov would not tell people certain things? Who would of acted different?
Hidan was a phyco killer. Itachi freaking carried around his brother on his back and gives speeches about people being distrusting and hypocrites and illusions. Itachi would stop and stare at the sky blankly while Kisame wonders wtf is wrong with him. Hidan not once showed he care about anything.
-
There's still several major issues which no one could have seen coming, such as:
-the Third Hokage effectively allowing genocide by sitting back and letting two or three people who he outranks run the show
I wouldn't say the 3rd Hokage was allowing anything to happen. What I see is him failing to stop it.
! The Uchiha were planning a coup. What more could he do besides peace negotiations? If peace talks failed then what's the next step? He's the Hokage. It's not out of character for him to protect Konoha and it's definitely not out of character for him to try peaceful negotiations. He didn't want this. It was out of his hands and was constructed by his advisors.
!
-the Uchihas planning a coup d'etat, something which was never even hinted at before
It was hinted at 179 chapters before the reveal.
Chapter 399: Part 2 of the manga
! Chapter 220: Part 1 of the manga
!
-the Uchihas being neglected at all - from the early chapters, one would get the impression that they were the beloved superstars of Konoha before Itachi killed them all
I suppose that's the impression Kishi wanted everyone to see until the reveal. In chapter 220 Sasuke and Itachi also talked about the Uchiha symbol and its connection to the police force. You can start from here.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c220/17.html
In chapter 220 it was also shown Itachi's fater really wanted Itachi into the Anbu (as I showed above) so I think it's safe to presume Kishi already had the idea of something was up with this whole scenario.
In order for the "Itachi was a good guy all along" plot twist to work, many characters had to act completely out-of-character or contradictory to what was shown earlier in the series. Most of the people who theorized it in the first place were probably Itachi fans who felt that he couldn't have done anything wrong - there are people who try to make excuses for HIDAN, for crying out loud!
I'm no Itachi fan but even I theorized there was something more to Itachi's story. Admittedly I did not think it would make him in any way or form redeemable but I thought something was fishy. But you said "most" so you're probably right about that.
Either way I wasn't surprised to the point of "THIS IS BULLSHIT" when the reveal was done. Itachi's suspicious actions (not killing his brohter in the massacre), his care for his brother (letting him live after their fight), and everything that followed showed something was up.
-
I can't remember if this was said, but why did Itachi kill Shisui? It was originally said it was for the Mangekyo Sharingan, but after it turned out Itachi was good, it seemed out of character.
Was it already part of the "killing the Uchihas" or something?
-
Hell, what would really piss me off is if Lee finally won a fight and then died afterwards.
It'd be fine. There's like 83 different resurrection jutsus now. Some don't even have costs! Or foreshadowing!
It could actually be Lee's sword! Or a white zetsu! Or Sakura could sacrifice her life! Or Tsunade could feed him a suicide pill that counteracts the effects! Or a Sharingan illusion! Or he could come back as a zombie and blissfully train forever! or some 80 year old guy we never saw before could randomly come along and give up his life instead. Or Nagato can ressurrect everyone again! Or Lee could be eaten by the ten tailed beast in the moon and magically absorb chakra from within its stomach! I dunno. Some BS or another.
Really. There's absolutely no cost or sacrifice involved in dying in this series anymore.
But given how quick and underwhelming Guy/Kisame was, I wouldn't expect much. (there was some cool stuff in that fight, but it was like 2 attacks each and 5 pages… after Kisame had already been killed once.)
-
They still haven't revealed entirely why ye killed shisui, but i assume it was to get stronger to complete his mission. I just read over chapter 221 Sasuke dad was one cold mofo. LOL reading that over again showed that his father didn't care about shit(even Sasuke) other then Itachi being a spy for them. He even gets pissed when Itachi says he will be doing a mission for the village http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c221/23.html
Its funny how Kishi always let Sasuke overhear the ending of all his the convos Itachi had with his father and his father never really say why. Also Itachi basically tells Sasuke even if he hates him he still loves him here http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c221/26.html Itachi talks in codes and crap. Sasuke had the wtf is this guy talking about face on. lol
Found something else again in 222 Shusui letter said their no future for uchias.
Uchia Itachi beind badass http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c222/21.html lol "u assumed i have patience" LMFAO I never relized how badass this guy was.
It even says forshadow on the side comments at the end of Itachi not following Uchia orders http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c221/26.html
Reading this over for the first time in a while makes even more clear has freaking day that something wasn't right. I advise you to read Chaps220 and 221 to see a butload of forshadowing.
Shisui was spying on him so thats probably the reason he killed him first http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c222/22.html
Why would he say he lost hope in his clan if he only killed them to test his power. He also speaks to them about clinging to the clan name http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c222/26.html Itachi was clearly fighting with emotions. He was going to kill the whole clan in daylight if his Sasuke didn't tell him to stop.
After reading that over again i know Kishi planned this.
-
@HiroVoid:
I can top that amount of disgusting and weirdness
NSFW and may leave mental scarring:
[hide]p8M75rxuie4[/hide]DBZ Moulin Rouge is far worse.
I can sit through Dr. Dick Chopper, mostly staring with disbelief. But it's deliberately amusingly stupid at the least.
DBZ Moulin Rouge….is still one of the hardest youtubes to sit through.
-
I liked Dr. Dick Chopper changing the playing cards into various utensils..
-
Anything with Dr. Dick included, rises to incredibly awesome levels so hush all of you.
-
Juju is right about that. There were multitudes of theories dealing with Itachi being a "good guy", years before it was revealed. There was a general consensus that Itachi's shady past was too shady and there was still something unrevealed.
Could you offer up any proof as to how this was unplanned? The best way to go about this is to show me at least 1 plothole which was created thanks to Kishi suddenly making Itachi "redeemable", in some people's eyes, thanks to his little sob story reveal by Madara. Of course I should not be able to counteract your argument and the plothole has to be an actual plothole.
As of right now I see no continuity issues in the story thanks to Kishi's supposedly impromptu urge to make Itachi a "good guy". That right there shows me Kishi planned this or no way it would have weaved seamelessly into story, despite how people personally feel about it. You don't make something this big up on the spur of the moment without screwing something else up somewhere else in the story. Retconning ensues.
Yes, really. I don't know what to say beyond that. If people like Itachi that's their thing. Both of us can be baffled all day long but it won't change a thing and it's not bad to like a fictional character, no matter how much people disagree with you.
Are you forgetting that after Itachi was revealed to be a "total pacifist" Sasuke remembers him crying as he runs away? That wasn't even remotely foreshadowed. Sasuke apparently just forgot about it up until then. I guess rather than a continuity error that's more of a retcon, but a terrible, terrible retcon.
I get that if Itachi was revealed to have been crying as he ran away that would have ruined the whole "Is Itachi really a bad guy?" mystery but Kishi still could have handled it better. A good way for Kishi to go about foreshadowing it would be to have Sasuke have flashes in his dreams of Itachi weeping. This would have to be some point after he defected from Orochimaru. That would have been good foreshadowing but I guess Kishi was too lazy. That is assuming he actually did meticulously plan this out.
-
Kareem i love how you skip over Outspec other post and linking to you a butload of forshadowing post. Why would Sasuke remember his brother weeping? Kareem your arguement is very weak. Sasuke just saw his whole family get killed and trusted brother beats the shit out of him and tells him to get stronger. Pls refer to outspec and my last post their is no recton going on. Your arguement is weak has hell.
-
Kareem i love how you skip over Outspec other post and linking to you a butload of forshadowing post. Why would Sasuke remember his brother weeping? Kareem your arguement is very weak. Sasuke just saw his whole family get killed and trusted brother beats the shit out of him and tells him to get stronger. Pls refer to outspec and my last post their is no recton going on. Your arguement is weak has hell.[
Shut up juju, my arguement is not particularly weak,l admit to not having read those chapters in a while (I don't want to), but that's not the point.You are so blinded by your fanboyism towards this series you won't acknowledge it's many flaws. You act like everyone else's arguements are weak, but you're the one who just spouts out pointless crap. You're basically the forum's whipping boy we keep you around as a form of cheap amusement. BTW do you post in any other threads besides Naruto?
-
@Kareem oh please I am not a fanboy because i don't hate Naruto. I don't think Kishi is God. He makes mistakes like Naruto fainting(He could of handled that better), Pein ressurection jutsu etc… Just because i don't agree with you guys constant bashing with no facts most of the time don't blame me. Outspec destroys you on the other page showing constant forshawdowing. Your reply is he didn't show him crying before. LMFAO I said your arguement was weak because it was. You calling me a fanboy doesn't change the fact. LOL whipping boy didn't u say you just join this forum. I would post my account is glitched and the mods won't fix it.
Showing Itachi crying then would defeat the purpose of him being evil and the reveal. Read 220-223 their is a shit load of forshawdowing of Itachi having disagressments and shady activities.
-
@Kareem oh please I am not a fanboy because i don't hate Naruto. I don't think Kishi is God. He makes mistakes like Naruto fainting(He could of handled that better), Pein ressurection jutsu etc… Just because i don't agree with you guys constant bashing with no facts most of the time don't blame me. Outspec destroys you on the other page showing constant forshawdowing. Your reply is he didn't show him crying before. LMFAO I said your arguement was weak because it was. You calling me a fanboy doesn't change the fact. LOL whipping boy didn't u say you just join this forum. I would post my account is glitched and the mods won't fix it.
Showing Itachi crying then would defeat the purpose of him being evil and the reveal. Read 220-223 their is a shit load of forshawdowing of Itachi having disagressments and shady activities.
Neither do I. As a whole I don't hate Naruto. I may have given the impression that I do but I don't. If you were to rank every manga ever from tier 1 to tier 10 then Naruto would be at around tier 6. Many on this forum would rank it lower, but that's where I put it.
But that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore its flaws and what I hate about the series. Sasuke is a terrible character, the story is mediocre at best, the art can be horrible at times (just look at this war right now), the treatment of women leaves a lot to be desired and I tried to look past all of that, because there are aspects of the series I find brilliant, but I couldn't. I can say that the series isn't terrible or bad. But I can't call it great or good, not when I've started reading more series that are actually worth my time.
I'm off to read more Berserk and Negima, series that are worth my full time. Also, Kaede from Negima is better than every female ninja in Naruto combined. (Even Hinata, because while I may like her, I can't deny she is as useless as every other Naruto female).
Speaking of which go to SHR's beach house and read his list of 10 things he hates about Naruto. Maybe it'll open your eyes and you'll see this isn't the top tier series you claim it to be.
Doubtful, but worth a shot.
-
@Nobodyman i owned you so much times since i cameback i starting to feel sorry for you.
-
Lol. Good job Nobodyman. Don't mess with Nobodyman, Juju. He's an expert at dealing with fanboys and other people with horrible taste on AnimeSuki forums. He can deal with you just fine.
-
I don't really care about art to be total honest and i don't think Sasuke is a horrible character, but everyone has their opinion. I don't really like WB, but others do. treatment of women? 2 Kages are women right now. Tsaunde beat Oro and helped is the only reason rock lee can still move. Chiyo/Sakura beat Sasori. 2 out of the five Kages are Women which means they are superior then most in their village. If Kishi hated Women so much why did he make 2 girls Kages. Wouldn't that go against his so called hatred for girls. Why is noone complaining that DBZ didn't have any amazing girl characters other then a andriod who got eaten by Cell and then cameback to just be krillin wife? This female thing is in your mind and u just following what u heard other people say.
-
XEbW3XVtngA .
-
treatment of women? 2 Kages are women right now. Tsaunde beat Oro and helped is the only reason rock lee can still move. Chiyo/Sakura beat Sasori. 2 out of the five Kages are Women which means they are superior then most in their village. If Kishi hated Women so much why did he make 2 girls Kages. Wouldn't that go against his so called hatred for girls. Why is noone complaining that DBZ didn't have any amazing girl characters other then a andriod who got eaten by Cell and then cameback to just be krillin wife? This female thing is in your mind and u just following what u heard other people say.
Are you seriously trying to debate that women AREN'T basically useless and mistreated in Naruto?
! Lwxu5VHWvjw&autoplay=1
-
I don't really care about art to be total honest and i don't think Sasuke is a horrible character, but everyone has their opinion. I don't really like WB, but others do. treatment of women? 2 Kages are women right now. Tsaunde beat Oro and helped is the only reason rock lee can still move. Chiyo/Sakura beat Sasori. 2 out of the five Kages are Women which means they are superior then most in their village. If Kishi hated Women so much why did he make 2 girls Kages. Wouldn't that go against his so called hatred for girls. Why is noone complaining that DBZ didn't have any amazing girl characters other then a andriod who got eaten by Cell and then cameback to just be krillin wife? This female thing is in your mind and u just following what u heard other people say.
Why do you always do that.
Every fucking time I see you arguing, you come up with this "but One Piece/Dragonball/whatever weren't that good at this either"-bullshit.
And on a complete other note, I wanted to ask you something, something I always wanted to knew about you.
Why the hell do you do this? Why do you keep coming back, talking about something completely pointless, getting insulted and mocked every week?
I just don't get it. I honestly believe you aren't troll, but I just can't fucking figure you out?
Are you doing this because you see it as some sort of duty to defend this…thing? Do you actually enjoy this? What is your goal? -
@Kareem:
Are you forgetting that after Itachi was revealed to be a "total pacifist" Sasuke remembers him crying as he runs away? That wasn't even remotely foreshadowed. Sasuke apparently just forgot about it up until then. I guess rather than a continuity error that's more of a retcon, but a terrible, terrible retcon.
Well, personally, I wouldn't call him a "total" pacifist. He did help murder most of his clan after all. And of course I didn't forget Itachi crying. I couldn't forget his finger pokes either.
! I can't see Itachi crying as much of a retcon because it's not trying to explain an out of the blue subject on all its own. It's just putting emphasis on the hard choice Itachi had to make and the regret he felt afterwards. Sasuke forgetting about it (hell I think he repressed the memory) because of trauma and the fact that he got mind raped on the same night isn't far out there.
I get that if Itachi was revealed to have been crying as he ran away that would have ruined the whole "Is Itachi really a bad guy?" mystery but Kishi still could have handled it better. A good way for Kishi to go about foreshadowing it would be to have Sasuke have flashes in his dreams of Itachi weeping. This would have to be some point after he defected from Orochimaru. That would have been good foreshadowing but I guess Kishi was too lazy. That is assuming he actually did meticulously plan this out.
It's already been proven Kishi planned the Uchiha's coup de tat and Itachi's involvement as a spy. If that was planned out since Part 1 then the elders involvement and thus their order for Itachi do the massacre would have also been planned out. In fact, the elder's involvement had to be planned and in the works because the only reason Itachi was ordered to do the massacre was because of the coup de tat (which Kishi foreshadowed).
Yeah, Kishi could have handled it better but truthfully one can say that for just about anything.
-
RPGjay Explain to me how a hater of women makes them leader of a whole villages?
Kareem stop sucking up to everyone. You sound like Thousand lion chan now.
@Sheep its not that OP or DBZ wasn't good at it.its being a hypocrite thats make me mad. Oda god fanboy when Oda isn't any god and makes mistakes too.
I just come here to talk naruto. Why would i care about people insulting me over the internet? Wats that going to do make me cry?
-
I don't really care about art to be total honest and i don't think Sasuke is a horrible character, but everyone has their opinion. I don't really like WB, but others do. treatment of women? 2 Kages are women right now. Tsaunde beat Oro and helped is the only reason rock lee can still move. Chiyo/Sakura beat Sasori. 2 out of the five Kages are Women which means they are superior then most in their village. If Kishi hated Women so much why did he make 2 girls Kages. Wouldn't that go against his so called hatred for girls. Why is noone complaining that DBZ didn't have any amazing girl characters other then a andriod who got eaten by Cell and then cameback to just be krillin wife? This female thing is in your mind and u just following what u heard other people say.
Okay, I'm assuming you're not a troll for once, and I'll try not to give a funny video or something and actually try to counter your points for once.
WARNING: Huge post incoming.
! First of all, seriously? You think that simply by putting a woman on a high position, it automatically means a good treatment? Because that's really not how it works, at all. See, I think the main complaints about his treatment of women isn't simply of the 'Stay in the Kitchen' variant (although it's there), but Kishi seems unable to have even one prominent, strong woman in the series. (just to be clear, strong here means in characteristics not power level, a well-rounded, symphatetic, interesting kind of way).
! Okay, let's look at some of the more prominent female characters in Naruto and see if you notice a pattern. When you heard Sakura, for most people the first thing that comes to mind isn't super-strength or medical ninja, but Sasuke-obsessed. Same thing with Ino and Karin. Hinata - even she was more commonly known as 'shy admirer of Naruto'. Tsunade is a bit better, but even she's introduced as a drunken, gambling addict due to losing two guys close to her. Mizukage I admit I don't know much of, but she has a running gag of being sensitive of being a Christmas Cake.
! See the pattern? Almost all of them has pretty much all their description, dreams and goals, even existence, defined by a man they like. This isn't exactly bad in itself, I'm not saying all women has to be a robot detached of any romantic involvement, or that they can't focus on family if they want to, but when pretty much all of the female character is like this - it really doesn't look good for Kishi. There's actually some potential in women like Anko and Temari, but Kishi never really give any further focus on them.
! This isn't even counting the overall bad treatment the girls get, like Sakura failing to do her single dream of taking back Sasuke, Tenten who even among the mostly forgotten early cast is abandoned the most (has she even has an on-screen fight?), or Hinata, who despite confessing and literally giving her life away for a man his life, never shown been given a proper response for…how many chapters is it now Robby? Surely more than 100 already?
! And for your argument that there are girls being Hokage, the problem is that we don't really see them actually qualifying to become Hokage or actually showing why they become Hokage out of all people. If I remember correctly, Tsunade isn't even the 1st choice for Hokage, Jiraiya is (hell, they'll probably go for Oro first if he's not their enemy), and I personally don't feel that she's still in Jiraiya's shadow, that he can do everything she does better if he really wants to. Sure, she healed Lee, but that's more a medic job, not Hokage's.
! Let's contrast this with a good example of treatment of women from another Shonen manga, Full Metal Alchemist. At first glance, Winry and Riza seems like a bad example, Winry being unable to fight and has to rely on the two brothers, and Riza nothing more than an aide for Roy. But they're given character developments, Winry with her parents and Scar, and Riza shows that she's a very loyal soldier, an excellent sniper, and is actually the one keeping Roy in line. And even with all that, they're still human, showing at times that they too can give in to their emotions when concerning a man they love, but in a way that felt natural and enriching their character.
! For women in position, look in the same manga with Olivia Armstrong. She's a woman who has the entire fortress of Briggs under her control, and she shows why she's in that position. Shortly after she first appear, she commandeered her man to take down a very dangerous threat, and when confronted with other men from her position, she's able to give as good as she got. And even with that, it's obvious that she too has a heart, showing that she really does care for the men she's leading.
! Or maybe, if you haven't read the manga yet (you should though, it's awesome) let's go to OP, since we're already in APforums. First up, Nami and Robin never really has any boy problems, although to be fair there really aren't any serious relationship drama in OP anyway. But more than that, they got a tragic backstory that actually shows their strength, being able to live independently from a very young age in a tough conditions. They also have a goal and dream that doesn't involve other men, and their goal not only has a great impact for them, but for the whole world. For women in power, Hancock as a Shichibukai may have that marriage shenanigans with Luffy, but when it comes down to it, she got a powerful DF, physical ability at least as good as Smoker and able to kick a Pacifista, as well as her Haki. (I admit though, I'm a bit disappointed with Hancock as a whole, hope Big Mom would be better).
! And yes, I agree that great treatment of women has never really been shonen's strong suit, even for DB. But you know what? For instance OP and DB, they have great things going on for them, that this is a con amongst their pros. But for Naruto, there really are many other factor making it a mess, that fumbling something like this just feels like adding insult to injury. THAT'S the problem. -
Alright, I will address Outerspec later (I'll be polite, because honestly I think Outerspec is allright). I just want to address one of juju's comments in his latest post. I never said Kishi was sexist. I just said that the treatment of women leaves a lot to be desired. That's being generous. I really don't think the quality of Naruto's treatment of women is up for debate. It's bad.
However, in Kishi's defense, there are people who say that Naruto is the most sexist manga ever. There are far more sexist manga than Naruto, you can find them. But still Naruto does not treat women well. Just look at how every single team except for maybe the Sand Siblings, the girl is the weakest member. I'm not saying all of the women are terrible characters (well okay the only ones I like are Hinata and Temari, maybe Anko, but anyway). You know you're a fanboy when you're defending Kishi being sexist.
I honestly don't think I believe that Kishi is truly sexist I think he's just terrible at writing women. In which case can I ask is it really that hard Kishi? Really?