Chapter 560 "The Prisoners of Impel Down" Discussion

[andy]

@Aohige_AP:

I agree with you, and not once did I criticize the composition of the story, or Oda's incredible writing skills.
It's obvious Ace was set up to act this way, to snap him out of it by Luffy's outburst.

However, it has nothing to do with what I have been saying.
Yes, he's a symbol, much like anything else represented in the story.
I simply stated given his position in the story, we "expected" him to be taller and higher than what was presented to us.
This is not a negativity or criticsm, it is unexpected. And perhaps let down.
And those were most likely intentinally written so, and these feelings we express is likely part of Oda's plan, so Luffy's outburst becomes more dramatic.

You need to be able to put a line between writers intent and our observation, with critical argument. They are not the same thing, buddy.

Well i guess it depends on how you thought ace would act . I am in group that did not find how he act was unexpected. He might be the pirate king son but if oda had him just sit there without trying in some way to save his crew , i would have said that was unexpected.

@UsoppSpell:

Getting your entire crew killed can do that to you for a moment. Ace was completely destroyed just for getting defeated when his crew was completely intact. He is weaker than Luffy. His ego got destroyed and his ambition changed. Luffy is still adamant on becoming the PK.

Edit: Have to leave now, be back when I leave work.

Ace was not completely destroyed after getting defeated . He knew his crew was going to come and that some of them would die , he was trying to stop that . Plus ace never wanted to be PK he wanted to make WB PK and now because of him there a chance that WB could die . As i said before no matter how strong you are there is a chance of dying in this war .

If anything i see WB dying making ace want to become PK because that is what WB wanted.

[lelandlancaster]

@UsoppSpell:

The difference is that he would trust that his companions would pull through, and respect their desire to save him. Maybe he'd get emotional, possibly shout out "GUYS!" or something along those lines, but he would never try to shoo them away if they are there of their own accord, especially before they start fighting. What kind of trust and backbone does that show? The truth is that Ace was pwning everyone and then he got beaten. Then he broke down. Luffy got utterly defeated and was only mentally broken for a moment. His determination was restored relatively quickly.(Amazon Lily)

Yeah but Luffy is a complete dumbass. Ace is a little more realistic in portraying someone with a functioning brain.

And honestly Luffy's never dealt with the death of someone he's cared about, other than Merry. While we don't know exactly how Thatch's death went down, we do know that he was Whitebeard's fourth commander, so we can probably assume he was hella strong, if Marco, Ace and Jozu are any indication of rank and strength. Ace knows that someone as strong as Thatch was killed by Blackbeard, so why wouldn't he be worried about the outcome of the rest of his crew taking on all the strength of the World Government?

[onemoment]

This post is deleted!

[GuessWhat]

@UsoppSpell:

There's a clear difference between valueing other's lives over yours and thinking that your own life is worth nothing because your a failure. Luffy is willing to risk his life over others as many times as he needs to, but he will not deny help from others because his self-worth is destroyed due to his crushed ego.

Crushed ego will never equate to Luffy. Just as it will never equate to Garp. But apparently it can equate to Ace.

Again I disagree.
But let us just assume that Ace only wants to stop this war because he himself feels unworthy of saving:
Why was Luffy not smiling when Shanks lost his arm if he felt himself so worthy of saving? Maybe Luffy learned a lesson that day that coined him for the rest of his life. I really think it is a bit unfair to look down upon Ace in such a manner. Maybe he never witnessed something like Shanks did for Luffy on his own? Self esteem and self value is often (or even only) created by the esteem of other people. And here we have Ace, the son of the legendary pirate king (and remember, Luffy did not knew he himself even had a father for years). Can you say: pressure. For me this is why Ace did not realise that Whitebeard wanted him to be the new pirate king.
My point is, Luffy had it easier than Ace (pressure-wise) and was not always this sure of himself, another example is the episode with the strawhat. Luffy was the one telling everyone that he WILL be the pirate king one day. And then Shanks gives him his hat, which clearly symbolises: “Yes, you will, Luffy.” And Luffy's tears start to flow, because someone else believes in him. And suddenly all his talk became more than “just talk”. But this happened through another person, not by himself.
Maybe Ace has not learned this lesson yet. But he is likely to do now.

@Aohige_AP:

I agree with you, and not once did I criticize the composition of the story, or Oda's incredible writing skills.
It's obvious Ace was set up to act this way, to snap him out of it by Luffy's outburst.

However, it has nothing to do with what I have been saying.
Yes, he's a symbol, much like anything else represented in the story.
I simply stated given his position in the story, we "expected" him to be taller and higher than what was presented to us.
This is not a negativity or criticsm, it is unexpected. And perhaps let down.
And those were most likely intentinally written so, and these feelings we express is likely part of Oda's plan, so Luffy's outburst becomes more dramatic.

You need to be able to put a line between writers intent and our observation, with critical argument. They are not the same thing, buddy.

OK interesting, I personally was not caught by any unexpected behaviour of Ace. I never expected him to be this “larger than life”-person in such a situation But I understood what You meant, now. ;)
Concerning the author's intention, this is always speculative unless the author himself states his intentions explicitly. If Oda has, I am sorry and take back what I have said, but as long as he does not the reconstruction of the “ideal recipient” is always based on a personal interpretation.

BTW to all who participate in this discussion here: Thanks, I am really starting to love this place. ;)

[TsunamiJace]

@wintergt:

Totally agree with your post. Only the last part is kinda funky.. we have to take over the belief of a character in the manga?

If Buggy can believe he can take over the world, why can't you?

You have a point we do not have to believe in a character.

I do like your question though if buggy can take over the world hahaha

[RomanceDawn]

This is great, a good ol fashion discussion. No one has called anyone a name yet either? Fantastic!

This topic is getting a bit to deep for me. I have to re-read older chapters to be able to contribute. But please, carry on on guys!

[UsoppSpell]

@GuessWhat:

Again I disagree.
But let us just assume that Ace only wants to stop this war because he himself feels unworthy of saving:
Why was Luffy not smiling when Shanks lost his arm if he felt himself so worthy of saving? Maybe Luffy learned a lesson that day that coined him for the rest of his life. I really think it is a bit unfair to look down upon Ace in such a manner. Maybe he never witnessed something like Shanks did for Luffy on his own? Self esteem and self value is often (or even only) created by the esteem of other people. And here we have Ace, the son of the legendary pirate king (and remember, Luffy did not knew he himself even had a father for years). Can you say: pressure. For me this is why Ace did not realise that Whitebeard wanted him to be the new pirate king.
My point is, Luffy had it easier than Ace (pressure-wise) and was not always this sure of himself, another example is the episode with the strawhat. Luffy was the one telling everyone that he WILL be the pirate king one day. And then Shanks gives him his hat, which clearly symbolises: “Yes, you will, Luffy.” And Luffy's tears start to flow, because someone else believes in him. And suddenly all his talk became more than “just talk”. But this happened through another person, not by himself.
Maybe Ace has not learned this lesson yet. But he is likely to do now.

BTW to all who participate in this discussion here: Thanks, I am really starting to love this place. ;)

I ask you to refrain from using examples that do not take into consideration the context in which I placed Luffy to compare him to Ace. I said that if Luffy would ever reach the point where his nakama were as powerful as the WB commanders, and they all have a lot more experience together, then I believe that Luffy would behave very differently. Ace is a person who can't handle the pressure of his expectations. Luffy can. He can take responsability for what his actions bring. He does not wish to undo them to die free of responsability, like Ace.

I agree that self-worth is tied to others' appreciation, but I really wouldn't know how much others did for Ace.

Also, it's good that people can discuss things without calling each other names for a change. Although, I must tell you, this kind of discussion is quite the exception, as there are certain member that would attempt to destroy you for a differing opinion.

@lelandlancaster:

Yeah but Luffy is a complete dumbass. Ace is a little more realistic in portraying someone with a functioning brain.

And honestly Luffy's never dealt with the death of someone he's cared about, other than Merry. While we don't know exactly how Thatch's death went down, we do know that he was Whitebeard's fourth commander, so we can probably assume he was hella strong, if Marco, Ace and Jozu are any indication of rank and strength. Ace knows that someone as strong as Thatch was killed by Blackbeard, so why wouldn't he be worried about the outcome of the rest of his crew taking on all the strength of the World Government?

Agreed. Luffy is a complete dumbass. But that recklessness was exhibited by Roger as well, who we know was a carbon copy of our beloved hero. So perhaps that recklessness, or fearlessness in the face of insurmountable odds is what makes Luffy so strong, even when his opponent is super powerful and your victory is uncertain. Ace cannot deal with the uncertainty of the war, while Luffy has accepted that death is a possibility, but doesn't want to back out.

In Ace's credit though, after all the whining he finally accepted his friends' help. But that resignation and depressed stare is very different from Luffy's way of handling death back in Logue Town. And there he was leaving his crew behind to face certain capture.

@andy:

Ace was not completely destroyed after getting defeated . He knew his crew was going to come and that some of them would die , he was trying to stop that . Plus ace never wanted to be PK he wanted to make WB PK and now because of him there a chance that WB could die . As i said before no matter how strong you are there is a chance of dying in this war .

If anything i see WB dying making ace want to become PK because that is what WB wanted.

You seem to forget the fact that Ace knew that his crew was only beat up and no one was killed, and yet he became a homicidal maniac for several attempts for no real reason. And do you really believe that Luffy would try to assassinate his opponents, or best them up-front? I'm going with the latter.

[andy]

@ UsoppSpell

What are talking about , are you talking about ace flashback. I am talking about the war i think that luffy would act the same way if he was in ace shoes right now. Luffy run in the SB arc he not as stupid as guys make him out to be . Your acting like ace can do something right now he can't . Plus back in Logue town that you kept on talking about luffy crew was not in danger . Not the same compare to ace.

Plus your also forgetting one big thing luffy goal is to be PK . Ace goal is make WB PK and now because of him , his dream might get crush . Ace would rather die than let something happen to WB.

You are talking about when luffy is fighting or have a fighting chance right now ace don't have the option. If luffy was force to be somewhere and could only watch his crew and friends get kill one after another , knowing that his dream might get crush he would act the same. Luffy break down cry after what happen to his crew only 8 people. So far ace has to watch maybe thousands of his crew and friends die and maybe his dream while he can do nothing to stop it.

[GuessWhat]

Well, then let us enjoy this great discussion-atmosphere as long as we can! ;)

On to having different opinions:
I do not think comparing Luffy's tiny crew to the vast mass of people that are the Whitebeard Pirates is really the way to go. The commanders are the top-notch, but there are also a lot of not so super strong guys. Already Oars/Oz (or however he is called) was killed (yeah I know, death in One Piece = unlikely, but let us just go with what Oda probably wants us to think of Oars getting beaten like he was). And as lelandlancaster already said, Luffy has not faced the death of a crewmember yet. Do you really think if Chopper changed into his “huge monster”-form (sorry, I do not know if this form has an official term) and the same was done him as was done to Oars, Luffy would still think: “Whatever, go on saving me, if you want to.”?
Let's face it (and ignore Oda's no death-apptitude for a second), there will be many deaths among the Whitebeard Pirates. If Luffy had as many crewmembers, would he act any different from Ace?
And also, when Kuma separated the strawhats, Luffy was devastated. It is correct that he got back on track pretty fast, but that was just because he knew that his friends are still alive (or at least very likely to be). He was transported the same way the others were and therefore he assumes that they are somewhere with their hearts still beating. His reaction would be different were the other strawhats slaughtered by Kuma in front of him.
And also, just because Luffy accepts his own death he is not a comparison to Ace (who by the way is also willing to lay down his own life) having problems with the deaths of other people. I think this would clearly be seen, if Ace was really killed in this war (which I highly doubt). If Luffy failed to save Ace and he himself survived, I doubt he would not brush it away with a DON, so to speak.

BTW, after this thread I feel like Ace is the Hamlet among the pirates. Because of that now I really am withdrawing my bet of Luffy becoming the pirate king and am placing it Ace instead. And also thanks to You people with different opinions on this topic here, because if it really was Oda's intention to depict Ace as a person with low self esteem, who is just learning to believe in himself, then somehow it would really seem fitting that Luffy would give up the title of pirate king (and the conversation with Rayleigh already revealed that Luffy does not want the title for the title's sake but for what it represents, being free) to Ace. This is a possibility for Luffy's character to really grow even beyond what he already is. Being willing to give up his highest to goal for someone else, who needs it more than he himself does. This would also seem interesting when one considers that right now Ace denies Roger being his true father and maybe at the end of One Piece he would defeat this inner struggle and be at peace with himself and literally carry on the torch of his father(s, since Whitebeard also wants him to be the pirate king). Again, guys! Thank You so much for such an awesome discussion! Because of You I changed my personal expectation of the ending of One Piece. Great. This is what good discussion has to produce, open up new possibilities.

PS I have no idea if what I wrote makes any sense… ;)

[meOme]

@GuessWhat:

And also thanks to You people with different opinions on this topic here, because if it really was Oda's intention to depict Ace as a person with low self esteem, who is just learning to believe in himself, then somehow it would really seem fitting that Luffy would give up the title of pirate king (and the conversation with Rayleigh already revealed that Luffy does not want the title for the title's sake but for what it represents, being free) to Ace.

But Luffy will want the PK title as long as he thinks the PK is the most free person in the world. So unless someone convinces him that there is s person more free than the PK, I don't think he will let Ace, WB or anyone else have the title. Because he wouldn't give up on his biggest dream just to help Ace grow. Also I don't think it would help Ace's self esteem if the PK title was just given to him without him having to do anything for it.

I really have no idea what will become of Ace in the end.
I don't think he will die in this war. That would be too much Sasuke-ism for Luffy.
I don't see him as the next PK, because then Luffy couldn't achieve his dream. But I also don't see him in any less important role, because of his lineage. :ninja:

[syler]

ace wont be the Pk simply bcos there are much better and stronger competition for that title.

[lelandlancaster]

! @GuessWhat:
! > BTW, after this thread I feel like Ace is the Hamlet among the pirates. Because of that now I really am withdrawing my bet of Luffy becoming the pirate king and am placing it Ace instead. And also thanks to You people with different opinions on this topic here, because if it really was Oda's intention to depict Ace as a person with low self esteem, who is just learning to believe in himself, then somehow it would really seem fitting that Luffy would give up the title of pirate king (and the conversation with Rayleigh already revealed that Luffy does not want the title for the title's sake but for what it represents, being free) to Ace. This is a possibility for Luffy's character to really grow even beyond what he already is. Being willing to give up his highest to goal for someone else, who needs it more than he himself does. This would also seem interesting when one considers that right now Ace denies Roger being his true father and maybe at the end of One Piece he would defeat this inner struggle and be at peace with himself and literally carry on the torch of his father(s, since Whitebeard also wants him to be the pirate king). Again, guys! Thank You so much for such an awesome discussion! Because of You I changed my personal expectation of the ending of One Piece. Great. This is what good discussion has to produce, open up new possibilities.

PS I have no idea if what I wrote makes any sense… ;)

I started thinking about the possibility that Ace would end up PK, instead of Luffy, after Ace's flashback (chapter 549) about telling Luffy to live without regrets and their plans to live free on the seas.

Until chapter 507, with Luffy telling Rayleigh that he just wanted freedom, I was honestly a bit unimpressed with Luffy's dream. Well not with the dream itself but his motivation. He's really gung-ho about it but it seemed to me to just be a something he impulsively decided to impress/spite Shanks, and then he ran with it because he's Luffy and that's what he does.

But then realizing that he wants the title because of the freedom it represents made me feel a bit better. Well first I "AWWWW"ed for a bit because it looked like he took his big brother's words to heart. Freedom's a good goal in life.

I also find it interesting that it doesn't seem like Ace ever wanted to become pirate king, even before he met Whitebeard. In chapter 159, he tells Luffy that he wants to make WB the pirate king and not Luffy. Which I'm going to take that he went along with Luffy's ambition before they left home, instead of making himself a direct rival for PK against Luffy.

So I guess since both brothers want freedom and Luffy decided that being PK was the way to go and Ace not, they must have disagreed on the merits of being the PK. And while being the world's most notorious pirate totally might put a hamper on freedom, as an argument, I think that Ace's unresolved problems with Roger probably has more to do with his decision.

So yeah I can totally see Luffy giving up his dreams for his brother, if he think that's what Ace really needs (other than his current "even if I die" situation)

As for what Ace wants..I'm not sure he knows exactly what he wants other than making Whitebeard happy. Obviously being on Whitebeard's crew has sated his need for freedom, at the moment, so he was already living his personal dream. He wants to make WB the pirate king but that could become impossible with WB crippled/dead/outofthepicture.

I can see Ace becoming a rival for PK, or even ending up as PK, but he has to deal with a lot of his own, much self-created, troubles first.

[GuessWhat]

@meOme:

But Luffy will want the PK title as long as he thinks the PK is the most free person in the world. So unless someone convinces him that there is s person more free than the PK, I don't think he will let Ace, WB or anyone else have the title. Because he wouldn't give up on his biggest dream just to help Ace grow. Also I don't think it would help Ace's self esteem if the PK title was just given to him without him having to do anything for it.

I really have no idea what will become of Ace in the end.
I don't think he will die in this war. That would be too much Sasuke-ism for Luffy.
I don't see him as the next PK, because then Luffy couldn't achieve his dream. But I also don't see him in any less important role, because of his lineage. :ninja:

You know, the more I think about this, the more I can see this happen. And I did not want to imply that Luffy would just give the title to him. Ace would have to fight for it, but Luffy would make a choice to let Ace be the one to achieve it. He already has shown that Ace is more important to him than becoming the pirate king.
Really, if one thinks about it. We all expect Luffy to be the pirate king, do we not? So how could Oda surprise us? It would really be the only way I can think of right now how Luffy's character could develop even further than I would have every thought (meaning, the end of the line for me was always: pirate king). And let us face it, it is just a title. (Like Doflamingo said, everything is relative.) As we all know Luffy will likely learn what freedom is during his journey, therefore he has no real need for this title. With Ace it is different, maybe him never seeing that Whitebeard is trying to make HIM the pirate king, is exactly because he could never imagine himself as someone carrying this title that once was carried by his loathed father. He would come clean with his past.
Now guys be nice, do not burst my fantasy bubble! lol
No I am kidding, go ahead shred into tiny pieces. ;)

EDIT:
@ lelandlancaster

I love Your post. I can basically agree to everything You wrote!

[juju14]

@UsoppSpell:

You're posing a situation which is currently completely out of their league. I hardly believe that when Luffy's crew can fight on par with guys of that caliber he will be whining and telling them to back off because he's not worth it. Ace has put his ambition's value under the one's from his crewmates. His self-esteem, his ego is shattered due to his failure, something that would not happen with Luffy, and it isn't happenning now. He values his nakama's lives, but he would also value their desires. And if they want to go out of their way to save them, he would never complain against their wishes.

I am certain Luffy would not be as conflicted with the outcome of the events. He would have struggled harder, and he would not have questioned the decisions of his crewmates and friends. Furthermore, when Luffy has lived and grown as much as Ace, do you really expect him to go all emotional? Hell, I expect that Luffy will already be PK by the time he is Ace's age, and I sure as hell don't expect the PK to become a whine machine when he is captured.

It's not really something we can argue, but I can say that I do not believe that Luffy would act the way Ace is acting.

He would if he thought they wasn't strong enough. Ace offered to kill himself in hopes that noone else dies. I don't see Luffy not saying the samething to Garp.

[Fiasco.]

Lets discuss something else, like Hancock now actually being taken serious as a shichibukai, And whether or not Ivankov is shichibukai level or higher.

Now I need a troll to go make a Hancock vs Ivankov thread.

[Sables]

I'm not sure if this has been said yet but it seems fairly obvious that Kuma is, or rather was working with Dragon and the revolutionary army. We know he and Iva used to be friends, Iva of which was a leader in the army and who said himself that Kuma despised the WG. The only reason I see Kuma allowing himself to be transformed into PX-0 was to be able to use that advantage to help out the revolution in any way, this could have been anything from relaying important information to stealing vegapunk schematics etc. It's also logical seeing as he single handedly saved the Strawhats from capture and whispered something- most likely highly important information about future revolutionary events or WG plans, to Silvers Rayleigh. The only reason Iva doesn't have a clue is because he's been in ID and out of the loop.

[DaeJi]

@Fiasco.:

Now I need a troll to go make a Hancock vs Ivankov thread.

We should have a battle forum here. The Naruto forum has one, and I'll be damned if I let a forum built around the emo kid with the eye thing be better than this one. Battle forum!

[Karate D. Frank]

I'm going to laugh so fucking hard at all the moronic "ACE GONNA BE BIG CHARACTER" people when his head gets cut off.

[onemoment]

Ace is so going to live. I'd be willing to bet….something....tomorrow when I'm less tired.

[dinty]

@RomanceDawn:

This is great, a good ol fashion discussion. No one has called anyone a name yet either? Fantastic!

It's enough to make a grown man cry, ain't it?

GuessWhat, lelandlancaster, andy, Aohige, and everyone else who took part in the prior Ace discussion …. WOW. Cheers.

Not only was it well-argued from both sides, but everyone was civil to each other and heard each other out, and followed up on questions and stayed on topic and by golly, not a single profanity was exchanged in the process!

I just wish I'd been around then so that I could participate too ...
:cwy:

But hey, since we've got another week to kill, here are a few of my random thoughs on various issues raised:

@UsoppSpell:

The reason why I think WB is babysitting Ace is because he believes that once Ace is capable of outgrowing his current crew's ambition, he will finally strive for the ultimate title and achieve it.

This is an interesting point, and the way you phrase it almost makes me feel as if WB and WB's crew will need to be scattered, destroyed, or divided in some strong way, so that Ace will be forced to step outside of their shadows. For so many years of his life, he's lived in their shadows, and while I'm sure that it gave him strength and confidence when he was younger, it seems to be strangling him now.

Both brothers had early meetings with Yonkou that were the defining experiences of their lives, but Ace's meeting with WB was very different in tone from Luffy's meeting with Shanks, and I think that's in part because WB realized Ace's potential and took him in, whereas Shanks realized Luffy's potential and cast him out. One said "join me, and you'll become stronger" (dependence) and the other said: "come find me and you'll become stonger" (independence).

Something he already suspects, to a sufficient degree that it merits the assignment of his strongest bodyguard.

Not only being assigned the strongest bodyguard – but also being allowed to stand side-by-side with WB the first time they meet, without having to do anything to prove his worthiness of that honor first.

EDIT : though I suppose that smacking Croc down is probably a pretty good indicator of worthiness in WB's eyes.

@UsoppSpell:

Also, it's good that people can discuss things without calling each other names for a change. Although, I must tell you, this kind of discussion is quite the exception, as there are certain member that would attempt to destroy you for a differing opinion.

Unfortunately, every forum has several handfuls of that type, but I find that if you try to respond civilly to them – even if they don't respond civilly to you -- it usually either makes them eventually tone down their insults and swearing so that you can have a proper discussion, or else it fires them up into such a rage that they commit some outrageous act and get banned soon after...

@lelandlancaster:

I think that Ace's unresolved problems with Roger probably has more to do with his decision.

I think that's exactly it – that he doesn't want to do anything his father did, because he doesn't want to resemble his father in any way.

_> As for what Ace wants..I'm not sure he knows exactly what he wants other than making Whitebeard happy.

I think you are right about Ace primarily being concerned with WB's happiness. Which makes me wonder how he would react if, on WB's deathbead, WB turned to him and said: "Ace, it is my dying wish that you become Pirate King. It is what I have always hoped for you and it would be my greatest happiness…"

I wonder if that alone would be enough to make Ace want to become PK.
Hmmm._

[kingsambob]

Going a little of topic but I always believed that luffy's goal was more about the journey than the destenation.

[GuessWhat]

@dinty:

It's enough to make a grown man cry, ain't it?

GuessWhat, lelandlancaster, andy, Aohige, and everyone else who took part in the prior Ace discussion …. WOW. Cheers.

Not only was it well-argued from both sides, but everyone was civil to each other and heard each other out, and followed up on questions and stayed on topic and by golly, not a single profanity was exchanged in the process!

I just wish I'd been around then so that I could participate too ...
:cwy:

No need for a sad face, everyone is welcome to join whenever he/she wants. ;)

@dinty:

This is an interesting point, and the way you phrase it almost makes me feel as if WB and WB's crew will need to be scattered, destroyed, or divided in some strong way, so that Ace will be forced to step outside of their shadows. For so many years of his life, he's lived in their shadows, and while I'm sure that it gave him strength and confidence when he was younger, it seems to be strangling him now.

Both brothers had early meetings with Yonkou that were the defining experiences of their lives, but Ace's meeting with WB was very different in tone from Luffy's meeting with Shanks, and I think that's in part because WB realized Ace's potential and took him in, whereas Shanks realized Luffy's potential and cast him out. One said "join me, and you'll become stronger" (dependence) and the other said: "come find me and you'll become stonger" (independence).

I really like how You phrased that dependence vs independence thing. When Luffy's journey reaches his end maybe he will realise that being the pirate king is not as independent as he thought, really guys, after sleeping one night over this I am still sticking with this. ;)

@dinty:

Unfortunately, every forum has several handfuls of that type, but I find that if you try to respond civilly to them – even if they don't respond civilly to you -- it usually either makes them eventually tone down their insults and swearing so that you can have a proper discussion, or else it fires them up into such a rage that they commit some outrageous act and get banned soon after...

Or we will just ignore people like Karate D. Frank for calling some people in this discussion (me included) moronic. Usually these people give up on their own if no one is feeding them any attention.

@dinty:

I think that's exactly it – that he doesn't want to do anything his father did, because he doesn't want to resemble his father in any way.

_I think you are right about Ace primarily being concerned with WB's happiness. Which makes me wonder how he would react if, on WB's deathbead, WB turned to him and said: "Ace, it is my dying wish that you become Pirate King. It is what I have always hoped for you and it would be my greatest happiness…"

I wonder if that alone would be enough to make Ace want to become PK.
Hmmm.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. I know this from personal experience, too. But let me ad that this protest against the father's way of life most often occurs if the father is putting pressure on the son. If the father figure allows the son to develop more freely there is no need for protest because there is nothing to protest against. Of course the individual has always an urge to distinguish him-/herself from their surroundings and that goes especially for fathers and sons but if the father is leaving the choice up to the son, the son is likely to, even if he does not follow the path OF his father, see nothing “bad” in his father's ways.
And this applies also to Ace. We can agree that our Hamlet pirate is more contemplative than his brother Luffy and he has some sort of inner struggle against his dead father, but after yesterday's discussion I came to believe that Ace's protest is much rather a concealment of his true accusation: that his father simply was not there when he grew up. That is also why he sees Whitebeard as a father, because he feels the need of having a father, someone to guide him in his early life. This is also congruent with Ace having a hard time to accept that every member of Whitebeard's crew sees him as a father in the flashbacks. Even though he badly needed one he forced himself to believe that it is decided that he will never have one and now someone appears and opens the possibility to him, that he can have one. Even while he tried to kill Whitebeard again and again, Whitebeard's offer did not disappear. (The whole a-parent's-love-no-matter-what-you-do thing.) And I think it was Marco (or someone else) who told him, that he could just leave the crew, but Ace remained to try further how far he can go and challenge this bond, until he realised that it will stay strong and Whitebeard will not just give him up, even IF he tries to kill him. So Ace felt safe, and he could accepts this bond. As for his brother. Luffy does pretty well without a father because he has a different character from Ace. Luffy is not the great thinker, he is not giving in to doubts because he thinks little about them. (The whole old debate: Can You be unhappy if you never think about being happy or unhappy?) In the end Ace is likely to realise that Roger did not put pressure on him and that defying him is not necessary to prove himself as an individual. Roger even gave his child to Garp, not to Rayleigh or someone else. He allowed Ace to have the option to choose. (Or he used the reverse of the protest-thing, but Garp on the other hand has never concealed who Ace's real father was, so the point still stands.)
And yes, I am partly giving in to UsoppSpell's point about Ace's lack of the feeling of being worthy to be saved. But as a problem that runs much deeper. Just imagine Your own mother would lay down her life to save You, just the prenatal bond was already enough. Would a contemplative person not give in to thoughts if one was worthy of all this?
If this turns out to be true than WOW Oda, you are the next Dostoevsky! ;)

@kingsambob:

Going a little of topic but I always believed that luffy's goal was more about the journey than the destenation.

It is not off-topic, that is exactly the reason why I can see Luffy giving the title up. Remember when he shouted at Usopp in Shaki's bar. He said he would quit being a pirate. Somehow paradox if one's main goal is to BE the one and only pirate king one day, no matter what._

[Karate D. Frank]

@GuessWhat:

Or we will just ignore people like Karate D. Frank for calling some people in this discussion (me included) moronic. Usually these people give up on their own if no one is feeding them any attention.

Underestimating me has never paid anyone well.

And as the ring leader in this shit circus of rampant Narutofan-bad speculation you really shouldn't be indignant, you have this coming.

I mean this is beating out FireFistAce in the pretentious wankery department and then some.
I mean look at this crap.

And this applies also to Ace. We can agree that our Hamlet pirate is more contemplative than his brother Luffy

Woo hoo! Let's randomly namedrop Shakespeare that we obviously have never seen given that there is nothing whatthefucksoever similar to Ace in Hamlet.

And this.

You know, the more I think about this, the more I can see this happen. And I did not want to imply that Luffy would just give the title to him. Ace would have to fight for it, but Luffy would make a choice to let Ace be the one to achieve it. He already has shown that Ace is more important to him than becoming the pirate king.
Really, if one thinks about it. We all expect Luffy to be the pirate king, do we not? So how could Oda surprise us? It would really be the only way I can think of right now how Luffy's character could develop even further than I would have every thought (meaning, the end of the line for me was always: pirate king). And let us face it, it is just a title. (Like Doflamingo said, everything is relative.) As we all know Luffy will likely learn what freedom is during his journey, therefore he has no real need for this title. With Ace it is different, maybe him never seeing that Whitebeard is trying to make HIM the pirate king, is exactly because he could never imagine himself as someone carrying this title that once was carried by his loathed father. He would come clean with his past.

Fanboying taken to a new level "HEY MAN, WHAT IF THIS SHALLOW COOL SIDE CHARACTER UPSURPS THE MAIN CHARACTER IN HIS SINGLE MINDED GOAL, FUCKING AWESOME RIGHT"

Yeah man I wish nothing more then for One Piece to give in to the same retarded poop that plagues Naruto.

[Greg]

I wonder if the key to this is how much Ace knows about the world and his own history.

See, if Ace dies here, I'm just curious about what other chances we have to learn about his mother. Not that Ace will have a FB about his mother, but that someone might explain something about her to him. And unless someone related to (not limited to blood relations) Luffy was close to her, at this point, I don't see what other opportunity there is to explore their actions or rather, how their actions might be made more significant or poignant later on.

Let's face it, if we see love blooming between Roger and Rouge, (pirate love meaning a sweaty night preceeded by grog and a note on the nightstand) and there's no doubt in my mind we will one of these days, there's really no impact if Ace is already dead. This is possible if we get…I dunno...SOMEBODY'S flashback or explanation about her before Ace dies, but I don't know if Oda really has the balls to interrupt what he's started here with a flashback. If he does, good for him, but it would be a horrific break in the narrative he's worked hard to build up....then again....Skypiea.... -_- (yes I know it will be incredibly important later but still it was awkward)

I think Ace should die. I just don't know if that's what Oda's planning.

Regardless, Luffy wanting to save Ace or not has little impact on whether he will or not. It would be nice if something didn't go his way for once.

Then again, ALL OF IMPEL DOWN (from Luffy's perspective) would be a waste if Luffy didn't. And I'm not sure Oda wants to take a year of his story and flush it down the toilet.

If Ace does die, it will not be before Luffy has the chance to give HIM the opportunity to escape. That much will happen. What happens after that…

On a different yet related note, I wonder if the Marines' plan is to isolate WB and take him the fuck out when everyone is distracted.

Yeah it would be a major victory for them to extinguish Roger's bloodline, but wouldn't it be an even bigger opportunity for them to take out the man 'closest to One Piece'.

That's not to say I think they ever intended to kill Ace and let WB just walk away kicking the dirt, but I can't help but wonder if their secret plan is to say 'fuck it' to Ace and unleash some horrific one-shot give-it-everything attack that compromises WB.

It doesn't seem that WB is helping his chances either by assigning his right-hand-man to defending Luffy. NOT THAT WB ISN'T A FUCKING DEMON but the Marines have something on their side and the tide of the battle certainly seems to gradually be shifting towards Ace and away from WB.

OF COURSE THIS COULD CHANGE IN AN INSTANT when/if WB shows that he could have lept the distance to Ace in his sleep, but I think it's important to note how things seem to be drifting away from him.

[GuessWhat]

@Greg:

Regardless, Luffy wanting to save Ace or not has little impact on whether he will or not. It would be nice if something didn't go his way for once.

That is what made the separation by Kuma so great. I was really all like: “Finally something went really wrong.” Too much perfection ruins it, really.

@Greg:

See, if Ace dies here, I'm just curious about what other chances we have to learn about his mother. Not that Ace will have a FB about his mother, but that someone might explain something about her to him. And unless someone related to (not limited to blood relations) Luffy was close to her, at this point, I don't see what other opportunity there is to explore their actions or rather, how their actions might be made more significant or poignant later on.

Let's face it, if we see love blooming between Roger and Rouge, (pirate love meaning a sweaty night preceeded by grog and a note on the nightstand) and there's no doubt in my mind we will one of these days, there's really no impact if Ace is already dead. This is possible if we get…I dunno...SOMEBODY'S flashback or explanation about her before Ace dies, but I don't know if Oda really has the balls to interrupt what he's started here with a flashback. If he does, good for him, but it would be a horrific break in the narrative he's worked hard to build up....then again....Skypiea.... -_- (yes I know it will be incredibly important later but still it was awkward)

I think Ace should die. I just don't know if that's what Oda's planning.

Roger and Rogue? You are right this is likely a gap that will be further filled. Maybe through Rayleigh later on. I think You are also right that there will currently be no major break for a flashback. That would be unbearable ;) Hopefully the stories of the other strawhats have moved to cover story-only because of this “no break-allowed”-attitude.

I personally cannot foresee Ace's death in this conflict. The only one of the main characters I can see leaving this confrontation “in a coffin” is Whitebeard. The rest will survive, IMHO.

[dinty]

Greg's post reminds me of something I wanted to ask earlier, but forgot to say:

Do we even know if Ace knows the real story about his father's death? (I don't think he does, but I still need to reread those flashback chapters from a few weeks ago).

What I'm talking about is: the illness and Crocus and Garp and all that – the stuff that Rayleigh told Luffy, that Luffy didn't know about Roger before Rayleigh told him.

Because if Ace doesn't know that, then that might change his opinion of his old man somewhat (maybe?) Or maybe meeting Rayleigh would be enough to convince him that his old man wasn't quite the monster he thinks he was.

I mean, Ace doesn't HAVE to accept his father, but since Roger is portrayed in a pretty favorable light in OP, and because Luffy has been cast as Roger version 2.0, it seems like it would be fitting.

Ok, gotta go to bed now, Way past my bedtime.

[TLC]

@Greg:

I wonder if the key to this is how much Ace knows about the world and his own history.

See, if Ace dies here, I'm just curious about what other chances we have to learn about his mother. Not that Ace will have a FB about his mother, but that someone might explain something about her to him. And unless someone related to (not limited to blood relations) Luffy was close to her, at this point, I don't see what other opportunity there is to explore their actions or rather, how their actions might be made more significant or poignant later on.

Let's face it, if we see love blooming between Roger and Rouge, (pirate love meaning a sweaty night preceeded by grog and a note on the nightstand) and there's no doubt in my mind we will one of these days, there's really no impact if Ace is already dead. This is possible if we get…I dunno...SOMEBODY'S flashback or explanation about her before Ace dies, but I don't know if Oda really has the balls to interrupt what he's started here with a flashback. If he does, good for him, but it would be a horrific break in the narrative he's worked hard to build up....then again....Skypiea.... -_- (yes I know it will be incredibly important later but still it was awkward)

I think Ace should die. I just don't know if that's what Oda's planning.

Regardless, Luffy wanting to save Ace or not has little impact on whether he will or not. It would be nice if something didn't go his way for once.

Then again, ALL OF IMPEL DOWN (from Luffy's perspective) would be a waste if Luffy didn't. And I'm not sure Oda wants to take a year of his story and flush it down the toilet.

If Ace does die, it will not be before Luffy has the chance to give HIM the opportunity to escape. That much will happen. What happens after that…

Why would Ace refuse a chance to escape?:wassat:

[syler]

this hole ace subject is getting very boring hehe,he not that good of a character to be talking about him so much,and ace at this point simply wont do anything so whats the point with all the theories?
once luffy or Wb will save him he will probably keep doing his second in command thing,nothing more nothing less.

[GuessWhat]

@dinty:

Greg's post reminds me of something I wanted to ask earlier, but forgot to say:

Do we even know if Ace knows the real story about his father's death? (I don't think he does, but I still need to reread those flashback chapters from a few weeks ago).

What I'm talking about is: the illness and Crocus and Garp and all that – the stuff that Rayleigh told Luffy, that Luffy didn't know about Roger before Rayleigh told him.

Because if Ace doesn't know that, then that might change his opinion of his old man somewhat (maybe?) Or maybe meeting Rayleigh would be enough to convince him that his old man wasn't quite the monster he thinks he was.

I mean, Ace doesn't HAVE to accept his father, but since Roger is portrayed in a pretty favorable light in OP, and because Luffy has been cast as Roger version 2.0, it seems like it would be fitting.

Ok, gotta go to bed now, Way past my bedtime.

Very good point.
I think he knows only little or even nothing more than Luffy knew prior to what Rayleigh told him. On the other hand Whitebeard seems to have a past with Roger, too, so who knows what Ace was told by him or by the others pirates. Maybe the past rivalry of Roger – Whitebeard is also part of Ace's current disposition towards his real father.
But still, very interesting thing to ponder about.

@Thousand:

Why would Ace refuse a chance to escape?:wassat:

I think he meant it more in the sense that Luffy would be able to create a chance for him to flee, but Ace's escape would be intercepted by someone. Greg, please correct me if I misrepresented Your words here. ;)

[zullzero]

@syler:

this hole ace subject is getting very boring hehe,he not that good of a character to be talking about him so much,and ace at this point simply wont do anything so whats the point with all the theories?
once luffy or Wb will save him he will probably keep doing his second in command thing,nothing more nothing less.

Apparently, a whole lot of people are still interested in his character despite how you feel about the matter, because they still talk about him. He's also the focal point of this entire arc. It's kind of hard to avoid talking about the focal point of the current ongoing arc. Especially since that's the topic of this entire thread.

[hurrricane]

no chap this week?

:(:( im getting more and more exciting for the upcoming chapters. How do you think will luffy escape Mihawks black sword?

Someone will interfere, but who? Maybe Marco will help him, he is the new bodyguard of luffy, but we'll see

[Denimjo]

@hurrricane:

no chap this week?

No. I suggest that you brace yourself for a lot more breaks over the coming months, given the fact that Movie 10 is requiring Oda's attention as well as his status as a new father.

[Bucephalus]

where new chap OP?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Angel emfrbl]

@Bucephalus:

where new chap OP?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Behind you… Creeping up on you, waiting to pounce.

Seriously, it comes when and if its due to come this week.

[Luffyshirou]

@syler:

this hole ace subject is getting very boring hehe,he not that good of a character to be talking about him so much,and ace at this point simply wont do anything so whats the point with all the theories?
once luffy or Wb will save him he will probably keep doing his second in command thing,nothing more nothing less.

I kind of agree with you. The cause of this big War is not worth it, unless Oda comes up with a twisting plot of why Ace is to be executed other than the reason of being Roger's son.

[wintergt]

@Luffyshirou:

I kind of agree with you. The cause of this big War is not worth it, unless Oda comes up with a twisting plot of why Ace is to be executed other than the reason of being Roger's son.

I always had this impression the conclusion of this war could be the supremacy of the WG and the marines. With whitebeard, the strongest of the yonkous falling. But it doesn't click because of all the foreshadowing that blackbeard is going to rise to great power really soon. But there are so many named characters on both sides and we know Oda doesn't like to kill or discard them, so I'm really baffled what the conclusion of all this might be, because whatever it is, it has to make a BIG change in the world to lead into a "new era".. :/

[UsoppSpell]

@Thousand:

Why would Ace refuse a chance to escape?:wassat:

Greg is saying that Luffy's efforts should not be fruitless, that he should get to Ace and give him a chance to escape. Whether or not Ace manages to escape after he's out of his handcuffs is what's uncertain, and I agree.

But no clearly Ace woudn't refuse a chance, he said it himself.

Greg is basically saying, "Oh look, Ace has been freed by Strawhat Luffy!"

Big flames and fireworks, Ace is mad

Sengoku stabs him in the heart

Oh noes!

(or yes, kishishishi)

[TLC]

@UsoppSpell:

Greg is saying that Luffy's efforts should not be fruitless, that he should get to Ace and give him a chance to escape. Whether or not Ace manages to escape after he's out of his handcuffs is what's uncertain, and I agree.

But no clearly Ace woudn't refuse a chance, he said it himself.

Greg is basically saying, "Oh look, Ace has been freed by Strawhat Luffy!"

Big flames and fireworks, Ace is mad

Sengoku stabs him in the heart

Oh noes!

(or yes, kishishishi)

Nah, in my opinion, that would be tantamount to Luffy not saving him at all and all the inherent problems (wasting an arc, Luffy's anguish etc.) still apply. It'd be a bigger kick in the balls if Luffy manages to get Ace out just for him to die anyway.

[MagneticMonkey]

@Thousand:

Nah, in my opinion, that would be tantamount to Luffy not saving him at all and all the inherent problems (wasting an arc, Luffy's anguish etc.) still apply. It'd be a bigger kick in the balls if Luffy manages to get Ace out just for him to die anyway.

It would be a bigger kick in one pieces story if Ace survive.
What luffy did is already a miracle. As a rookie he achieved a lot the last chapters.

[loledinmypants]

@Thousand:

Nah, in my opinion, that would be tantamount to Luffy not saving him at all and all the inherent problems (wasting an arc, Luffy's anguish etc.) still apply. It'd be a bigger kick in the balls if Luffy manages to get Ace out just for him to die anyway.

Actually, I think Oda could pull off the "Luffy saves Ace and escapes, then Ace dies" scenario better than the "Luffy saves Ace then someone kills Ace as they are escaping/right after rescue" scenario. I'm indifferent on Ace's death, but I think WB ought to fall in this war, though only after weakening the Marines (Luffy's effectively f'ed up the Shichi).

[onemoment]

I said this somewhere else, but I doubt Ace will die unless Whitebeard dies too. The guy seems so competent that he shouldn't fail at his goal until he's not longer physically able to fight, and this war seems to evenly matched for the marines to kill Whitebeard without huge losses to their side.

I mean, to those who see Ace dying, or even like to see Ace dying, what do you see Luffy, Marco, and Whitebeard doing while this is all happening?

[MagneticMonkey]

@onemoment:

I mean, to those who see Ace dying, what do you see Luffy, Marco, and Whitebeard doing while this is all happening?

Whitebeard won't be able to do anything he will probably be dead. Marco will be busy and luffy wouldn't be able to do anything.

[TLC]

@MagneticMonkey:

It would be a bigger kick in one pieces story if Ace survive.
What luffy did is already a miracle. As a rookie he achieved a lot the last chapters.

Omg, he beat a bunch of fodder. He's amazing!!!

No, the only way for everything Luffy did to not be a waste is if he manages to save Ace and that he stays alive.

[loledinmypants]

@Thousand:

Omg, he beat a bunch of fodder. He's amazing!!!

No, the only way for everything Luffy did to not be a waste if he manages to save Ace and that he stays alive.

Depends on how he dies after he's rescued… I can see Oda pulling off Roger's disease being genetic and crippling Ace afer their escape. Drama ensues then Ace leaves to presumably die offscreen. Oda kills a character this way w/o feeling like he's stained his hand w/ their fictional blood. There are other ways he could do it to where it's not really a failure on Luffy's part.

[TLC]

@loledinmypants:

Depends on how he dies after he's rescued… I can see Oda pulling off Roger's disease being genetic and crippling Ace afer their escape. Drama ensues then Ace leaves to presumably die offscreen. Oda kills a character this way w/o feeling like he's stained his hand w/ their fictional blood. There are other ways he could do it to where it's not really a failure on Luffy's part.

WT… That's totally random and gay.

[loledinmypants]

@Thousand:

WT… That's totally random and gay.

IF that's how it goes, wait until Oda does it before making an opinion. Summarized versions of plots sound bad. For examples go read the first 5-10 pages of most spoiler threads.

[TLC]

@loledinmypants:

IF that's how it goes, wait until Oda does it before making an opinion. Summarized versions of plots sound bad. For examples go read the first 5-10 pages of most spoiler threads.

No, saving Ace and being home free just for a deus ex machina virus to come out of no where is bad no matter how you look at it. It'd be better if his head was chopped off and I'm a huge pro Ace supporter. I get your point though but that's a very bad example.

[loledinmypants]

@Thousand:

o, saving Ace and being home free just for a deus ex machina virus to come out of no where is bad no matter how you look at it. It'd be better if his ehad was chopped off and I'm a huge pro Ace supporter. I get your point though but that's a very bad example.

Yeah, I admit that was a bad example of how he could kill Ace off w/o it being a failure on Luffy's part, but it was the first thing that came to mind. Point is, Ace can die and WB/Luffy can succeed in saving him in the same scenario if Oda plays his cards right. I'm indifferent on Ace. tbh, I'm more concerned about Oda making the power structure weaker, ie killing WB, crippling Marines, etc. That way things will be more interesting later on. If Oda works making Ace's death impactful into this, so be it and if not, no big loss.

[TLC]

@loledinmypants:

Yeah, I admit that was a bad example of how he could kill Ace off w/o it being a failure on Luffy's part, but it was the first thing that came to mind. Point is, Ace can die and WB/Luffy can succeed in saving him in the same scenario if Oda plays his cards right. I'm indifferent on Ace. tbh, I'm more concerned about Oda making the power structure weaker, ie killing WB, crippling Marines, etc. That way things will be more interesting later on. If Oda works making Ace's death impactful into this, so be it and if not, no big loss.

No, sorry, I don't agree. Luffy saving Ace just for him to die later outside the war would be dumb and pointless in my opinion. If Ace dies, then Luffy failed whether it was in the war or outside if the cause of death was a direct or indirect cause of the war. If it were unrelated, it would be a pointless deus ex and I know how to use the term properly (deus ex machinas are used to resolve story points that are not neccessarily in the protagonist's favor).

Either Luffy saves him and he stays alive for a long time or he doesn't save him at all.

[MagneticMonkey]

@Thousand:

No, sorry, I don't agree. Luffy saving Ace just for him to die later outside the war would be dumb and pointless in my opinion. If Ace dies, then Luffy failed whether it was in the war or outside if the cause of death was a direct or indirect cause of the war. If it were unrelated, it would be a pointless deus ex and I know how to use the term properly (deus ex machinas are used to resolve story points that are not neccessarily in the protagonist's favor).

Yeah ace dying because he lives a pirate life would be a DEM and would mean luffy failed. Thousand fucking omg chan!

@your reply to my post regarding luffys achievements in the last chapters i have no other reply than "reread the whole arc again starting at shabaody island."