Oh, I agree with that. But, it could help connect the general audience to it, especially those who aren't book readers. They emphasize the Gimli/Legolas issues a lot more in the book.
Still if you agree, then for movie purposes, it's basically fanservice.
After watching the LOTR trilogy years ago, I accepted there would be lots and lots of fanservice. But not all fanservice is inherently bad.
I like all the extra material… I'm in fact looking forward to the extended editions.
I understand the complaints about it ruining the pacing, I absolutely get that... but as many times as I've seen LotR, played them as background noise, listened to commentaries, and as many times as I'll inevitably do the same here... the longer, more comfortable with its own pace 10 hour epic is fine by me. (And especially treating part 1 as... part 1, rather than its own film, helps)
If I want to read the book... I can read the book. Or watch the old animated version which only cuts out a handful of sequences. I like the new "pull from all sources possible, fill in the blanks" version that uses Tolkien's notes and appendices to show some of the stuff that he would have added later but never did, and the longer set pieces and more characters.
...could have done without the scrotum chin, however.
And after all three are out there'll inevitably be a fan edit or twenty that condenses it all down to about 2 hours anyway and everyone will be able to point to those and go "that's perfect".
Their romance is canon. There just are so few actual romantic scenes in the book. They talk a few times, they get married at the end, in the appendix there is the tale of their young romance and how they met.
Oh, I know the actual romance is canon and the fact that Arwen rejected immortality for Aragorn like Luthien for Beren before her. I just meant that some (most?) of the actual romance scenes in the movies are not canon and (to me) very very fan-service-y/tacky.
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@RobbyBevard:
If I want to read the book… I can read the book. Or watch the old animated version which only cuts out a handful of sequences. I like the new "pull from all sources possible, fill in the blanks" version that uses Tolkien's notes and appendices to show some of the stuff that he would have added later but never did, and the longer set pieces and more characters.
I get that. And I liked what he did with LoTR (which, for all my perceived whininess in this thread, is the best book-to-movie adaptation I've seen). But some things, like removing Dain from the Battle before the Gates of Moria and the whole personal stakes between Azog and Thorin is a bit too dumbed down, don't you think?
But some things, like removing Dain from the Battle before the Gates of Moria
No. the movie already had 13 dwarves to keep track of, adding another one even for the flashback would complicate things even more and make it harder to follow. For all the stuff that the film was adding, there's still got to be some economy of character and story. Plus it gives Thorin a little backstory and a couple moments he wouldn't otherwise have. (And the scene where he earns the name "oakenshield" is just too awesome.)
Similarly, I know that Azog does a bunch of other stuff in the official histories, dies and his son carries the grudge, but in this case, streamlining it from four characters down to just two works fine and ties it together, makes it all more personal.
If you start trying to get into dwarf history about who was king, who was the son of the king, and 150 years of side history in there with the dwarves and the orcs… well, that slows down and muddies things even more. For all that Jackson is expanding things and adding material, he's still focusing on the characters that are there. (Radagast will obviously tie into the Witch King plot.)
It's kind of like cutting out Glorfindel. Sure it'd be nice from the purist POV to have the random background name in there and for the character to exist and have 3 minutes of screentime, but that little bit of a moment is better served given to a character that will actually show up again. (The Bakshi movie gave his scene to Legolas, the Jackson one gave it to Arwen... and both cut Tom Bombadill and rightly so.) Or Dernhelm... who really did nothing and giving his role to Éowyn makes sense.
and the whole personal stakes between Azog and Thorin is a bit too dumbed down, don't you think?
Not at all. Eventually in the book we get a battle of five armies, but they all just sort of… show up with no real personal stakes except that they all want the gold, and the armies aren't very fleshed out at all... It helps to have an identifiable ongoing entity to deal with, that has a personal grudge, to associate with one of the five armies (and I assume why Legolas is being added in, so that the elves have a similar representative) ... especially to help carry the weight of a much expanded narrative that needs an extra ending point or two.
Really my only complaint about Azog is that he's all motion capture and pure white, so he and his wolf looked a little fake at times. He needed some color in there to hide the CG, and probably should have had an actor at his base. (There's nothing so inhuman about him that I can see why he's not a makeup job. He's super muscular, sure, but...)
Wait…Dernhelm wasn't Eowyn in the books? I thought it was Eowyn in disguise. I didn't actually think Tolkien just dropped this character never for him to be mentioned again...
@RobbyBevard:
No. the movie already had 13 dwarves to keep track of, adding another one even for the flashback would complicate things even more and make it harder to follow. For all the stuff that the film was adding, there's still got to be some economy of character and story. Plus it gives Thorin a little backstory and a couple moments he wouldn't otherwise have. (And the scene where he earns the name "oakenshield" is just too awesome.)
The movie already fails at tracking 13 dwarves. Half of them (actually probably more like 10 of them) have absolutely no presence or personality, and they also look nothing like dwarves.
I am really excited by the trailer. I think it has this very well pronounced journey vibe that the part until the Lonely Mountain always had. What we see of new characters and plot elements doesn't seem to be distracting anything from it.
Now it's even harder for me to wait until all three movies are out on BD.
Also, this happened. Some fans filmed their
to the new trailer. After seeing their reaction video, Thranduil, Legolas and his girlfriend got together and made their own reaction video to the fans' reaction video.The movie already fails at tracking 13 dwarves. Half of them (actually probably more like 10 of them) have absolutely no presence or personality, and they also look nothing like dwarves.
There's still extended scenes and about 6 more hours of film to flesh them out. And they all got a scene or two here and there, particularly the party.
Aside from the leader and the fat one, they had no real personalities or distinguishing characteristics in the books. The rhyming near identical names do not help. Chalk that one up to Tolkien. Adding another couple names in flashback would not have helped matter.
What are you gonna do, Thorin is the only important one, and his relationship with Bilbo.
@RobbyBevard:
There's still extended scenes and about 6 more hours of film to flesh them out. And they all got a scene or two here and there, particularly the party.
Aside from the leader and the fat one, they had no real personalities or distinguishing characteristics in the books. The rhyming near identical names do not help. Chalk that one up to Tolkien. Adding another couple names in flashback would not have helped matter.
What are you gonna do, Thorin is the only important one, and his relationship with Bilbo.
- They look like dwarves completely in keeping with the precedent set by Gimli, and they look like dwarves from various areas and cultures at that that have been traveling. Or are you saying all drawves should look alike? That's racist!
Well that's yet to be seen but it should have already started to happen.
That's not true at all. Have you read The Hobbit recently? For example, Fili and Kili are frequently emphasized in the book for their youth and their good sight and hearing. They are constantly tasked with scouting and other (sometimes menial) tasks for this and also for basically being the younguns. Which causes them to be rather grumpy at times. That's just one example. Even Bombur who you mentioned didn't really have presence on screen, save for very minute amounts of comic relief. But I would consider him one of the three who weren't totally bland. The other two being Balin and Thorin.
I don't necessarily agree with you here, but the best part is how Thorin is basically just Aragorn mk. II in the movie.
@Thousand:
Wait…Dernhelm wasn't Eowyn in the books? I thought it was Eowyn in disguise. I didn't actually think Tolkien just dropped this character never for him to be mentioned again...
Dernhelm was Eowyn, not sure what Robby is going on about there.
- Well that's yet to be seen but it should have already started to happen.
I'm almost certain they have a ton of stuff in the extended cut that was all cut to get the already long run time down somewhat. Pippin, Merry and Faramir got similarly shortchanged in LotR until the extended editions. If LotR was an indicator, the plot and action sequences take priority over the character moments for the theatrical version.
- That's not true at all. Have you read The Hobbit recently?
Last December, right before the movie came out. And they all blend together.
For example, Fili and Kili are frequently emphasized in the book for their youth and their good sight and hearing.
They are constantly tasked with scouting and other (sometimes menial) tasks for this and also for basically being the younguns. Which causes them to be rather grumpy at times. That's just one example.
So even there, two of the characters are being lumped together with the same traits.
Even Bombur who you mentioned didn't really have presence on screen, save for very minute amounts of comic relief. But I would consider him one of the three who weren't totally bland. The other two being Balin and Thorin.
So, what was memorable about Dwalin, Balin, Bifur, Bofur, Gloin, Oin, Nori and Ori? Most of them were paired off, and being the other half of a set shouldn't count for much? Throughout the book they were generally all captured as a group of 13 (be it by trolls, orcs, elves, or spiders) that Bilbo then had to free, and they'd rotate the one or two at a time that were talking to Bilbo. They'd get a sentence or two occasionally describing a unique trait, but nothing much that stands out… cause there's thirteen of them. With rhyming names.
Bombur is always last and kind of lazy and complains a lot, and they make regular points about him being the fat one... and he gets to fall asleep for days and forget about the entire adventure about halfway though. He's the only one that really leaves an impession.
They did kind of get paired off, and not all of them had traits standing out as much as others, but they did have personalities (I couldn't tell you specifically who off the top of my head but some were much quicker to complain, or be afraid and talk about danger, etc). In the movie though you can't even tell them apart. When characters are on-camera you can't just sort of ignore them the whole time like a written narrative can get away with here and there, or they look even more insignificant.
My point is the movie had NONE of this. Zero. Not even the really easy to do Fili/Kili stuff. And it's kind of ironic that in the book the pairs of dwarves actually had color-coded clothes (or was it beards?) which would have made them easy to identify on-screen but of course they opted to not put any distinguishing features amongst them. Not that I'm saying the movie versions should be wearing colored hats.
which would have made them easy to identify on-screen but of course they opted to not put any distinguishing features amongst them. Not that I'm saying the movie versions should be wearing colored hats.
Style of clothes (details, cloth type, metal or fur or embroidered trim, cloak or no cloak) , type and amount of armor, style and shape of weapons, amount of facial hair… ? Each one visually distinct from the rest, but the associated ones bearing similarities. Some are dressed more for winter for instance with longer coats or capes... Each grouping has a different visual style of weapon. Fili and Kili do look way younger than the rest, they have different amounts of makeup in their nose and beard styles, and you can tell instantly that Gloin is related to Gimli without thinking a single one of the others are.
Balin and Dwalin have ornate leather robes with fancy trim on them, Bifur, Bofur and Bombur have earth toned cloth, Oin and Gloin have a fair bit of armor, Fili and Kili have more wintery outfits , Nori Ori and Dori all have cloaks.
Fili and Kili have goatees, Nori Ori and Dori have short beards, Bofur and Bombur have minimal chin hair, and the rest all have long beards.
Its not as blatant as "these two guys are in bright red, these two guys are in bright green, these three are the only ones wearing armor", but there' IS theme and style and commonalities to the groups without being as blatant as bright color coding (though under some lighting there is brown/black/earth tone/leather thing going on.)
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And of course, Thorin despite being famous for his long beard, gets a fairly moderate normal beard because it makes him stand out among those others, and gets a giant fur coat.
Also, it looks like elves are going to get that kind of easy marking in their hair colors.
In the movie though you can't even tell them apart. When characters are on-camera you can't just sort of ignore them the whole time like a written narrative can get away with here and there, or they look even more insignificant.
They're all visually distinctive. And again, I'm pretty certain the extended cut will add in much of the character moments you feel are missing… since it was exactly the same in LotR where most of the character stuff was trimmed for the theatrical in favor of plot and action.
Dernhelm was Eowyn, not sure what Robby is going on about there.
They didn't put a full face concealing helmet on her to try to play up and fake that it was a completely different male character with a new name only to have a surprise reveal later when she removed her helmet to Merry's surprise. It was an unneeded complication and an extra name that wouldn't make sense visually.
Or like when Pippin hanged out with Beregond and then his son Bergil… stuff given major screentime in the book where they interacted with Perrin at length... rightly cut from the movies. (And I had to look really hard to find their names.)
The movie already fails at tracking 13 dwarves. Half of them (actually probably more like 10 of them) have absolutely no presence or personality, and they also look nothing like dwarves.
Maybe it's the years of Dwarf Fortress, but Thorn's company looks dwarven as hell to me. The mix and match costumes kind of surprised me at first, but they make sense in light of all the travelling the group has done since Smaug scattered their kingdom.
Also, before I forget, I love that chunk of axe lodged in Bifur's head. It's in there, he can't talk because of it, but it's just one of those things.
Ah well I didn't notice at all that there were subtlish differences when I watched the movie to be honest.
Ah well I didn't notice at all that there were subtlish differences when I watched the movie to be honest.
Haha, to me they looked completely different in the movie. I always used to think of them in groups of two and three since that's how Tolkien always talked about them and was taken aback by their rather unique designs in the movie. I expected Fili and Kili to be identical twins! That said, I'm really looking forward to the "entry-into-Beorn's-hall" scene. 
To be honest I'm glad with the choices of the dwarves' looks that they've done. Apart from Thorin. I always pictured him much older. In my defence, he IS the oldest in the group! And here Balin looks like his grand-pappy.
Ah well I didn't notice at all that there were subtlish differences when I watched the movie to be honest.
It's not supposed to scream out and draw attention to itself. But the details are all THERE.
Along with extra scenes in the extended versions, I'm willing to bet the behind the scenes features will talk about that stuff and the decisions behind them at length.
Apart from Thorin. I always pictured him much older. In my defence, he IS the oldest in the group! And here Balin looks like his grand-pappy.
Thorin SHOULD have more of a beard because thats one of his more famous traits and be older looking… but he's more on par with Frodo this way... and having what is basically a normal trimmed beard actually makes him stand out from the others.
Fan reaction video to trailer [
O](
)rlando Bloom, Lee Pace and Evangeline Lily reaction to the fan trailer [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151697149436171F](
Hahaha. Just watched the Hobbit again with my friend who has the Tolkein Bible in her head. According to her one of the reasons Thorin's grandfather became consumed with greed with his gold (which led to attracting Smaug) was that he wore one of the seven Dwarven rings. Those rings apparently emphasized dwarves' faults, including (duh), greed.
Dunno where the other seven rings are, the three Elven rings are worn by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, and the nine Human rings were worn by kings that turned into the Nazghul.
So according to the novel it wasn't Azog they were dealing with in the present but his son….so I am kind of wondering what if it is the son in the movie also but he is acting as if it is his father? Its been a couple of yrs since I read the book so I'm not sure if that happens also during the book.
@Jedi:
So according to the novel it wasn't Azog they were dealing with in the present but his son….so I am kind of wondering what if it is the son in the movie also but he is acting as if it is his father? Its been a couple of yrs since I read the book so I'm not sure if that happens also during the book.
They streamlined that backstory a little for the movie so it involves less relatives. The original story involves multiple orcs and a couples different related dwarves over a couple generations, they condensed it down to just Thorin and Azog.
Dunno where the other seven rings are, the three Elven rings are worn by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, and the nine Human rings were worn by kings that turned into the Nazghul.
Sauron managed to regain three of the Seven; the rest were all destroyed by dragons.
@Jedi:
So according to the novel it wasn't Azog they were dealing with in the present but his son
Bolg will be in the third film; they already have action figures of him out.
I love this picture ^_^
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Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Extended Edition. Clip 1 :-
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Oh great because just what this movie needs is to be LONGER…
Oh great because just what this movie needs is to be LONGER…
Yup. Shame its only an extra 13 minutes. I would have been fine with another 30 or 40.
And there's apparently only one commentary instead of the 4 LotR got. And a lot of the behind the scenes stuff will probably just be the production diaries we've already gotten. Bit of a step down, overall.
I hope this doesn't mean I'll have to hold out even longer for an Extended Extended edition with the full set of extras
Isn't it 13 minutes instead of 19?. But yeah, i would have been fine with 30 mins too. November is still far away.
Also, What was the difference between limited edition and extended edition of the Lord of the Ring movies?
Generally the extended editions added about an extra half hour of movie, 4 commentaries, plus 2 disks of supplemntals, for many, many, many hours of extras.
Sheerly cutting down the commentaries is really bothersome, that was one of my favorite parts.
Desolation of Smaug: Trailer 2
I knew Benedict Cumberbatch was doing Smaug's voice (which I think is great), and I'm surprised I never thought before of "Oh, hey, it's Sherlock and Watson! Ha!"
And I'm sure Tumblr has had a field day with that casting ever since it was announced way back when.
Looks cool :)
Of course, the extra Legolas bits made me roll my eyes a bit. But oh well.
Been a while since we had one of these https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151969256876558&set=vb.141884481557&type=2&theater
Been a while since we had one of these https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151969256876558&set=vb.141884481557&type=2&theater
16 chars of i love it.
There's also a new 3 minute trailer :)
claps hands in glee
The Desolation of Smaug is around the corner…
Here is a review written by a friend of mine; I know exactly where he's coming from in terms of how much of a fan of the books and movies that he's been, so it's a good heads-up. There is a spoiler section, but it's clearly separated and marked if you want to avoid it.
So did everyone go see this tonight?
It was excellent.
FC: 5043 2397 0050 In Game trainer name (WolfWood)
I think I'm going to watch this today.
I am going to see it tomorrow (dad's birthday yesterday, work today).
I liked this a lot more than the first.
I'm probably going to wait a week to see it.
REMEMBER TO USE SPOILER TAGS!
So did everyone go see this tonight?
It was excellent.
I saw it last night; and yes, it was a ton of fun. My thoughts are along the same lines as the reviewer that Cosmic linked to.
There are a lot of changes and new material, but I understand the motivation behind most of them and agree with them for the most part.
! While I've always loved the book, the resolution of the Smaug plotline is, admittedly disappointing. Bilbo meets him, has a marvelous conversation with the old wyrm, and then our villain runs off to get killed by an extra not much more than he's been introduced. For a character that has been lurking as a major threat the entire work, he's dealt with in a fairly peremptory fashion.
! Here he gets a much larger role; the dwarven attempts to do in him are over the top, but, honestly, if you've ever played Dwarf Fortress, you'll love what they do here. Same for the barrel riding scene really; it's a passive escape by the dwarves in the book that's entirely dependent on Bilbo coming along to save them. Here they take an active role in the escape; it's similarly over the top, but, like the escape from Goblintown in An Unexpected Journey, it's nice to see what dwarves can do when they're riled up. In the book, they're largely comic, bumbling figures who suddenly become hardened warriors toward the end of the book. The films display those fighting skills more often and I like that.
! Many of the changes in the films so far have been to make the dwarves more proactive and less dependent on fluke circumstances to carry them through and I can't say that's a bad thing.
Complicating things since 2009.
! Here he gets a much larger role; the dwarven attempts to do in him are over the top, but, honestly, if you've ever played Dwarf Fortress, you'll love what they do here.
! Do they create a needlessly complex magma-pumping system powered by mine carts full of carved tiger bones?
@Cyan:
! Do they create a needlessly complex magma-pumping system powered by mine carts full of carved tiger bones?
! It's Erebor, of course they have one of those. Well, the tiger bones are speculative but the rest is there.
Just saw the movie, was nice and I never read the book so don't know what it was in the book or not.
But that Legolas dude is a one-man army.
Well, for one thing, Legolas isn't in the book. ;) But despite my wariness of him being added, I think I ended up liking the change in the end (so far). Though he's pretty dull as a character, Tauriel is actually a nice addition.
But anyway, I just saw the movie and I really enjoyed it. Look, I stopped caring about the movies being faithful to the books a long time ago. I went through all that with LOTR. When you have a purist mindset, you're never satisfied. Not even when the adaption is very faithful. The Hobbit movies are not very faithful to the books at all, but they're very entertaining and I think they still bring the story to the big screen in a very palatable and satisfying way.
! But ugh, that cliffhanger. I thought they'd resolve a little more than that before the end. My worry is that they won't be able to build that momentum back up after a whole year.
I want to believe too big guy3ds code friend:0404-6254-1866
