Because he's Coby who wants to be a marine capable of competing with Luffy and he was trained by Garp? Its a manga? Soru is one of the easier forms to learn?
I don't know the exact reason but if it was easy to learn you'd figure the world government would train more then a handful of guys in its use.
I was making a distinction between learning the Six Forms and mastering them. I assume that the various Cipher Police divisions learn some of the Six Forms as a matter of training. The members of CP9, by contrast, had learned all of the forms and had in some cases mastered one or more. Lucci had the distinction of having mastered all Six Forms. But enough of that, I'm still waiting for a good explanation as to why a (hypothetical) CP9 agent 20 years ago (back when Lucci was just killing small forest animals and hadn't moved on to people) would have any reason to risk the camaraderie of their brothers and sisters in arms by selling out the info from the Poneglyphs to pirates or criminal syndicates?
Wait, what? You've lost me here.
discussion from previous page.
It's not concering your argument, it's a 3 month old argument that he had with me.
But yeah i've given my reasons for that.
Well, you did give a reason for why the WG didn't send an infiltration mission to Ohara, but your explanation for why a CP9 agent would be willing to betray the World Gov't. and their fellow officers is still somewhat murky to me. Concerning the current issue and the overall thread discussion, I concur that Spandam abused his position of authority to blame his subordinates for all of his own mistakes.
Ah, alright then. Just to clarify then when I said the fighting style of the CP9, I did mean learning all six forms, which looking back was not as clear in my original statement as I thought it was.
Think my argument for that was set on more of a preemptive "you cant get rid of me, i know things" insurance deal. I mean isnt cushioning your fall so much that the fall will barley hurt pretty much a standard for high up secret agents.
As for their comradery, i think that before they made a heel face turn and become good guys most of em were bastard enough to sell out all of their peers for something they really wanted.
Ah, yes, in that case I agree that it probably does take several years to train new CP9 agents. But judging by the agents Spandine had with him twenty years ago and the current roster of CP9 (in disgrace with their superiors though they might be), none of them looked older than thirty. Also, none of the Next Generation CP9 seem younger than seven; so I'd guess that all Six Forms can be learned, with dedication and talent, in less than 15 years, or in twenty with just dedication.
As for their comradery, i think that before they made a heel face turn and become good guys most of em were bastard enough to sell out all of their peers for something they really wanted.
Likewise, before their heel face turn I figured that the only reason they didn't sell each other out was their almost fanatical devotion to the World Government's vision of Justice, coupled with the full knowledge that their fellow intelligence operatives would likely see it coming and skin them alive faster than you can say 'Sea-Weasel'.
This does raise a couple of questions for me though most prominently:
Who's going to do the government's political assassination work until the next group finishes training?
And
Since mastery of the six forms makes it unlikely to die in the line of duty and retiring doesn't seem like something the government would let them do, how does each successive generation replace the current one? Some variation of finishing your training by killing the last graduates?
That puts me in mind of Ruroni Kenshin and it's succession ritual for Mitsurugi Ryu:
Rokushiki Ryu no Ougi!! I-Put-Poison-In-Your-Tea,-You-Asshole!
…Meh is a guy...?
The world government had the marines go around killing babies and pregnant women to find a dead guy's son, if anyone here doesn't think that makes them evil then nothing will.
"Il turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
no WG is corrupted…but not evil...
people who are sailing around the world and avoid paying taxes are EVIL...those that sleeps and drinks all day and contributes noting to the society are EVIL....
long live JUSTICE
@_Meh_:
Likewise, before their heel face turn I figured that the only reason they didn't sell each other out was their almost fanatical devotion to the World Government's vision of Justice
I thought it was more that this life and their work was all they knew how to do, it was to them just like how we go to school for 9 years just because we're supposed to. Never saw (most of them) as being all that fanatical or absolute justicey. Blueno for instance seemed like a guy just going through the motions. While Luchi was a raving fanatical for his "dark" justice.
…Meh is a guy...?
"It" is beyond a mere gender.
The world government had the marines go around killing babies and pregnant women to find a dead guy's son, if anyone here doesn't think that makes them evil then nothing will.
This has already been done to death, there's atleast 20 pages of that whole debate floating around here somewhere.
They're going after Ace because he has with him the bloodline of two superhumanly powerful enemies of the state. And yknow what usualy happens when two immensly powerful beings get jiggy with each other? They spawn a kid with superpowers coming out of the ass that's already preset against their enemies.
Not saying it's not a dick move, but it's not the evil for evils sake people like to make it out to be.
This has already been done to death, there's atleast 20 pages of that whole debate floating around here somewhere.
They're going after Ace because he has with him the bloodline of two superhumanly powerful enemies of the state. And yknow what usualy happens when two immensly powerful beings get jiggy with each other? They spawn a kid with superpowers coming out of the ass that's already preset against their enemies.
Not saying it's not a dick move, but it's not the evil for evils sake people like to make it out to be.
Babies are not responsible for their parents crimes, or are inherently dangerous. Gold Roger being bad IS NO EXCUSE for going around killing babies or for going after ace (who is not responsible or Rogers actions).
"Il turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
Babies are not are inherently dangerous.
In real life i would agree with you, but in a world where both superpowers and personality traits are passed down geneticaly they are. Which is confirmed by the fact that Ace now is what the 10th most powerful criminal in the world and he's argubly not even at his prime yet.
Like i've been saying all along it's not pretty in the least, nor do i make the argument that it is "good" but i can see the reasoning for it. They had to choose betwenn that or waiting til he reaches the powers that surpass Roger's as kids in these kind of mangas always do and challenges them.
In real life i would agree with you, but in a world where both superpowers and personality traits are passed down geneticaly they are. Which is confirmed by the fact that Ace now is what the 10th most powerful criminal in the world and he's argubly not even at his prime yet.
HAHAHAHA, dude, Luffy and Ace's "superpowers" comes from the fact that Garp gave them training from hell as children and dumb luck (found devil fruits), NOT because they were born that way, its not genetics, its Garps training.
The WG had no reason to think a baby was dangerous, actually, they created the ace problem themselves, if Roger wasnt so sure they would try to kill a baby he wouldnt have asked Garp to protect him, and ace wouldnt be some super kid like Luffy.
And these other monsterously powerful people with the will of D just happen to have all been trained by Garp?
If you really think that bloodlines play no part in their power then you really havent been paying attention.
And these other people with the will of D just happen to have all been trained by Garp?
yeah…. thats actually what happened, ace and luffy were trained by Garp, HE DID NOT DO THAT CASUE THERE WAS A D IN THEIR NAMES. Also, its just two people, not "all these people" you speak off.
If you really think that bloodlines play no part in their power then you really havent been paying attention.
Zorro & Sanji has super strength, wheres the D in their names?, you know where Zoro and Sanji srtrength comes from?, TRAINING
There are 8 people who have been at the very top of the world, with staggering power who all happen to come from diffrent branches of the same family tree. And you think well aint that a coinkydink. And ascribe it all to training rather than the not so subtley hinted genetical factor? Seriously if you think it's a mere coincident that these strong shounen fathers all happen to have uber powerful kids then i think were done here.
As for Sanji and Zoro, you can get far with training but as shown they're not getting as far as Luffy or Ace who had the genes and the training.
There are 8 people who have been at the very top of the world, with staggering power who all happen to come from diffrent branches of the same family tree. And you think well aint that a coinkydink. And ascribe it all to training rather than the not so subtley hinted genetical factor? Seriously if you think it's a mere coincident that these strong shounen fathers all happen to have uber powerful kids then i think were done here.
At least 4 of which have devil fruits, and the other one is a giant, and the girl is on top of nothing (shes just rogers woman as far as we know), and 2 of them got training from hell. This proves NOTHING about "inherited strength".
There are ALOT of strong people in the world in dont have a D in their names.
And its also stupid to assume that kids will take after their parents, Garp is a marine hero, and his son is trying to topple the government for example. The WG has no reason to assume that Baby Ace will grow up to be a threat to them, and that os no justification to go around killing babies. Their willingness to do this is what caused their own problem, and the war we are seeing today.
@wolfwood:
As for Sanji and Zoro, you can get far with training but as shown they're not getting as far as Luffy or Ace who had the genes and the training.
No shit, They have devil fruits and Sanji and Zoro don't.
"Il turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
At least 4 of which have devil fruits, and the other one is a giant, and the girl is on top of nothing (shes just rogers woman as far as we know), and 2 of them got training from hell. This proves NOTHING.
It proves that people from a certain family are almost always among the strongest in the world.
And saying that the devil fruit makes them powerful enough to be on the world level is ignoring what've been told about how a devil fruit is only as powerful as the guy who uses it.
And as for Saul he showed strength beyond what've seen any other gigant do before. And i dont know about you but to me holding back a pregnancy for all those months on will power alone says something about her power.
There are ALOT of strong people in the world in dont have a D in their names.
There are, but if one group is overly represented then there is probably a reason for that.
And its also stupid to assume that kids will take after their parents, Garp is a marine hero, and his son is trying to topple the government for example.
Garp always goes his own way, and so does his kid and in turn his kid. Their alligencise arent staked out from the begining, but their personalities are pretty much in tune with their fathers give or take a few. Except for Ace but that can be explained by how he has spent his whole life trying to distance himself from his father.
It proves that people from a certain family are almost always among the strongest in the world. And saying that the devil fruit makes them powerful enough to be on the world level is ignoring what've been told about how a devil fruit is only as powerful as the guy who uses it.
2 of the devil fruit users got super training (dragon probably too, being Garps kid), and BB has the logia that lets him "defeat all other devil fruit and absorb things" devil fruit.
The dumb luck needed to be born a gaint, get training or get hax devil fruits is not inherited under any circumstances.
Also, Saul more powerful than other giants?, based on what?
There are, but if one group is overly represented then there is probably a reason for that.
Overly represented?, 8 D's among the all the strong people we've seen in this story?
Garp always goes his own way, and so does his kid and in turn his kid. Their alligencise arent staked out from the begining, but their personalities are pretty much in tune with their fathers give or take a few. Except for Ace but that can be explained by how he has spent his whole life trying to distance himself from his father.
You cant distance yourself from your personality (and he dint even know Roger).
Anyway, none of that equals dangerous.
And even if you can inherit strength, that doesn't mean its not evil that the the WG went around killing pregnant women and babies (and people who just happened to be connected to somebody).
"Il turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
The dumb luck needed to be born a gaint, get training or get hax devil fruits is not inherited under any circumstances.
As it would seem Ace, Luffy, Blackbeard, Garp, and Saul all inheritly have strenght far beyond what is normal. Just look at kid Ace beating a whole street gang half to death.
Also, Saul more powerful than other giants?, based on what?
With relavity ease lifting a mountain sized steel battleship loaded with 1000 marines, artillery, ammunition and supplies for them up over his head and smashing it down. Greatest feet of plain ol muscle strength we've ever seen in my opinion.
Overly represented?, 8 D's among the all the strong people we've seen in this story?
Name another group that has eight representatives among the worlds strongest.
More than one would be noteworthy, throw in seven more and you've got yourself a pattern.
You cant distance yourself from your personality (and he dint even know Roger).
He's not distancing himself from his own personality, but his personality is affected by that he feels immense shame over being Roger's kid and as such probably goes out of his way to be the anti-Roger.
But as Woop Slap said was there ever really a chance for Ace and Luffy not to become pirates when faced with the power and mindset that comes with their bloodlines.
Anyway, none of that equals dangerous.
A guy with incredible power deciding to follow in his fathers footsteps into a life of crime could turn pretty dangerous.
And even if you can inherit strength, that doesn't mean its not evil that the the WG went around killing women and babies.(and people who just happened to be connected to somebody).
Never said it was a good thing, like i said a few posts ago all im arguing for is that it's not evil for the sake of evil.
As for a side note, does anyone really think that Rouge wasnt a pirate in her own right?
A guy with incredible power deciding to follow in his fathers footsteps into a life of crime could turn pretty dangerous.
Never said it was a good thing, like i said a few posts ago all im arguing for is that it's not evil for the sake of evil.
WG (to marines): "Guys, we have just found out that Roger may have had a kid, i want you to retrace his steps and kill every pregnant woman you find and every Baby born within 10 months, theres a chance this kid will also be big and bad like his daddy…. and thats of course on top of the already killing anyone who was connected to him in any way possible"... or something like that.
I dont know about any of you guys, but these are not the actions of a just government, its pretty down right evil, just because their not doing it for the sake of evil of it doesnt make them any less bad for doing it.
"Il turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
I think we were given a hint about how dangerous people with the initial D. can be when Robin asked Luffy, "Why do you people with the initial D. always fight?"
Right off the bat, we are told that there is something that distinguishes them from anyone else, and that makes them somewhat more dangerous than the normal person, at least according to the WG.
^^i dont see the WG trying to annihilate the D's for being D's, D's are not inherently dangerous (2 of them that we know are marines).
i want you to retrace his steps and kill every pregnant woman you find and every Baby born within 10 months
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/550/15/
They narrowed it down to one island, searched all the women and found nothing. Saying that they indiscrimintly mass killed all the babies and pregnant women isnt just twisting words to make them out to be the worst kind of monsters possible it's also insulting to the competence of the cipher pols, who have proven themselves time and time again to be highly competent.
The argument im making is simply that as despicable as them wanting to kill the heir to Roger's power before he can make full use of it is it is not something born from their inheirent desire to commit atleast one act of unmitigated evil a day.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/550/15/
They narrowed it down to one island, searched all the women and found nothing. Saying that they indiscrimintly mass killed all the babies and pregnant women isnt just twisting words to make them out to be the worst kind of monsters possible it's also insulting to the competence of the cipher pols, who have proven themselves time and time again to be highly competent.
The argument im making is simply that as despicable as them wanting to kill the heir to Roger's power before he can make full use of it is it is not something born from their inheirent desire to commit atleast one act of unmitigated evil a day.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/551/06/
look again, there you see the marines indiscriminantly making orders to kill pregnant women and babies, killing any mother who looked suspicious.
Of course Sengoku isnt going to say it like that ON TELEVISION where people can hear, but we see THE TRUTH on the next chapter.
It seems even you were fooled by the WG's propaganda.
No what that says is that if during the course of your investigation you find a match for what we're looking for you are to kill her. But as they never found a match it is safe to assume that noone was killed.
But if you want to twist that order around to mean shoot every pregnant women in sight then be my guest.
No what that says is that if during the course of your investigation you find a match for what we're looking for you are to kill her. But as they never found a match it is safe to assume that noone was killed.
But if you want to twist that order around to mean shoot every pregnant women in sight then be my guest.
"Kill any mother who looks suspicous" while a on a quest to kill a baby, they had every intention of killng mothers and baby's, dont be naive.
Let me tell you something, all they had was that Roger was acting fatherly on an island, you say this as if they knew who they were looking for, what do you think they did while following orders to "kill every mother who looked suspicious"?, eh?
Im making it sound evil?, im telling it like it is.
"Il turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
"Kill any mother who looks suspicous" while a on a quest to kill a baby, they had every intention of killng mothers and baby's, dont be naive.
Yes suspicious, as in they seem to be our man or in this case woman.
what do you think they did while following orders to "kill every mother who looked suspicious".
Established if she was in the right time frame, was she married to anyone on the island, if not was the father unknown, had she been seen at some point with Roger, had she been hiding or was she out in plain sight, if she had cross reference her with whatever vague information they had on this woman he had been seen acting fatherly with etc etc. Yknow information gathering, that they would need to actualy be able to verify that Roger's son was in fact killed.
Which would be impossible if they just went in guns a blazing and filled up on a dead baby quota and went home as you suggest.
Im making it sound evil?, im telling it like it is.
Personaly i think you're going out of your way to make them seem more evil. Like for instance insisting that they did in fact kill children maybe houndreds of them even after the source material tells us they came up empty handed.
The marines who searched Rogers kid weren't competent at all during that time. Kill babies even if they had hints is the dumbest strategy someone can come up. Arresting those women would have been better for the sake of paranoia… I smell the moronic absolute justice in this case.
But saying the WG/marines are evil isn't right even if what they did sometimes is horrible, there is no need to toss logic aside.
It's like the WG/marines are fueling the revolutionaries with their bad feats which ain't clever at all.
The marines who searched Rogers kid weren't competent at all during that time. Kill babies even if they had hints is the dumbest strategy someone can come up. Arresting those women would have been better for the sake of paranoia… I smell the moronic absolute justice in this case.
But saying the WG/marines are evil isn't right even if what they did sometimes is horrible, there is no need to toss logic aside.It's like the WG/marines are fueling the revolutionaries with their bad feats which ain't clever at all.
Always sounded to me like Oda's simply basing it on history. The romans did the same thing when they heard of baby jesus being born.
"Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men."
So IF they did kill all the newborns and expecting mothers on the island, had themselves a complete wipeout worthy of such "evil" men then why in god's name would Sengoku still think that they came up empty handed?
This can be explained in many ways:
The marine officer said the truth and the marines have the blood of suspicious women+babies on their hands. Sengoku lied and connected aces incredible rise in the pirate world and age to roger? Like "there is no way in hell someone can achieve that so fast…. Fuck how old is the kid?... Oh shit we screwed up"
The marines never killed a baby on that island and never found rouge (sidenote: which i can't understand cause wow she did have a huge belly how can someone hide it in front of all the marines as shown in the flashback?) so they came empty handed without having blood on their hands.
The marines did find some women who had a connection to roger, killed them and some babies as the officer said but sengoku being smart knew or had a feeling they didn't succeed at all. Then boom ace became a pirate and there we go... sengoku and co knew they failed to stop rogers bloodline.
The marines would've been smarter to just take every female pregnant or not. Buster call the island and then raise all of the kids as marines.
Some brainwashing would've made some perfect pirate hating marines.
Or for the sake of magellans entertainment send them to ID… All those options are better than planning to kill the suspicious one.
i agree with who ever said the Will of D and bloodline connection stuff…i think the main purpose behind killing babies was to show that the WG are willing to do w.e it takes to get rid of the Rodger connection by any means necessary...
There is and will never be any bloodline based garbage in One Piece.
So I kindly request you shut the fuck up.
Hahahahah let's hear you try to justify this one.
Let me guess which orifice you'll pull it out from:
ANUS
Seems like some can't reply to ideas which have good arguments without resorting to insults. I'm more than willing to read why you (yes Tobirama) think that a bloodline is inexistant in one piece? Especially when the D's group display some interesting parallels which can be explained by the environment they grew up?
guess he won't be replying much anymore :D
anyway, moving right along:
Some brainwashing would've made some perfect pirate hating marines.
Problem is that Ace was actually trained by a marine (and not just any marine, Garp) and Daddan who trained him and presumably wanted him to be a marine aswell. it didn't help though because he still went pirating.
Remember, remember, the 5th of November
Problem is that Ace was actually trained by a marine (and not just any marine, Garp) and Daddan who trained him and presumably wanted him to be a marine aswell. it didn't help though because he still went pirating.
But Garp probably told Ace all about what the WG did to his mom and dad. If Ace was raised completely blind to who his parents were, he might have been Marine material. (Until Whitebeard comes along and tells him how much he looks like Roger. Oops.)
guess he won't be replying much anymore :D
anyway, moving right along:
Problem is that Ace was actually trained by a marine (and not just any marine, Garp) and Daddan who trained him and presumably wanted him to be a marine aswell. it didn't help though because he still went pirating.
It's obvious Garp didn't have the necessary amount of time to truly raise Ace or Luffy (for that matter) as real marines. There's gaps of times where he's left them with Dadan who obviously is just as lax in parenting as Garp is.
Plus I said brainwashing but if we're not going that far they could've at least been raised similar to how the CP9 were but Garp isn't strict enough.
There's a certain way you operate if you really want your desired results.
Also had it been Sengoku or Akainu(and a couple others) raising him the revelation that Roger was his father(which they would've told him at a young age and not hide it from him) would've still meant nothing if they told him the truth in the correct manner.
