Finally got around to reading this one:
Kaku brings back the swords, Rankyaku Shuriken, some freaky moves that looks like Hydra, and Zoro's Asura technique.
Overall, looks to be a great chapter. I find no real problem with the whole "spirit" deal, as long as it doesn't turn into, as said, another "jutsu" deal or such.
I just tought of something:
Think about Luffy's gomu gomu no gatling gun and gomu gomu no storm…
Those are slightly different in my opinion because you know he is moving during those; Zoro is posing in the last panel with the multiple arms and heads. Also, there are lines showing movement on the storm and gatling gun. I'm not saying Zoro right now couldn't be doing that, I just don't think he would waste such speed on useless movements just to give an illusion. But then again, he very well may…:blink:
Okay, I don't know what this exactly means, but I would like to point out that zoro's "extra" arms and heads all have the same damage. Before anyone looks and sees that the arms indeed don't have equal damage, remember that the arms are seen at different angles. What does this mean? I dunno, it seems kind of weird to grow/summon arms that aren't brand new. This goes along with the sword thing as well.
Seriously, it doesn't matter what it is, be it spirits or speed, because Oda will make it cool. This was a pretty cool chapter, and the fight was pretty cool too. Zoro pretty much made Kaku look like a chump. He was far from his strongest at the mansion, he didn't even use a named attack, and he definitely didn't have three swords out. Zoro told Kaku that he was several times stronger then he was at the mansion, and he was right. I hope he tells Kaku that he's fired, as per Paulie's request.
maybe it's something like this
^_^"
 4 - 8 - 15 - 16 - 23 - 42 
XD
Nice one dacaji!
But anyways, I really cant wait for the fights to be animated now cuz maybe that will make things a lot clearer to see. Also these new attacks would be awesome.
@Mog:
What the…. Jesus. Your level of research is insane, stephen.
What's even more insane is the mere thought of that being an intentional reference by Oda.
This is really not very much "out there" in the grand scheme of things. You just look up Asura in Wikipedia and it has the Hindu definition as well as references and links to the Buddhist and Zoroastrian uses of the word.
In Japanese it's pretty easy to tell when a word is derived from Buddhism, and from there it's a quick check in Wiki or Daijirin to find definitions.
From what I read, the "Ahura" are dieties, and not demons, yet Kaku referred to Zoro as having the eyes of some kind of Japanese demon(I forget the name). This seems to get stranger, and stranger.
Anyhow, about the 'extra arms and swords' thing, I think that they're kind of like Kage Bushin: Illusions, but solid illusions that take damage, but eventually fade away. We'll probably have more insite come next chapter.
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something." - Plato
From what I read, the "Ahura" are dieties, and not demons, yet Kaku referred to Zoro as having the eyes of some kind of Japanese demon(I forget the name). This seems to get stranger, and stranger.
Asuras are demonic beings in Hinduism
The wikipedia artical for "Asura"(Though, "Ahura" is a more appropriate term) says that they are mistakened as demons. They're more like dieteic devils.
The artical depicts them as being "supreme beings" that preside over motals.
Try and research, before you teach, mein freund.
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something." - Plato
I hope he tells Kaku that he's fired, as per Paulie's request.
Ah, yeah. I almost forgot that in this chapter. That HAS to happen. XD
Ah, yeah. I almost forgot that in this chapter. That HAS to happen. XD
Possibly, but I'm thinking that it may not happen.
By the way, this is off topic, but do you have an account on the ASMB with that same SN?
Asuras are demonic beings in Hinduism
Yeah, and what's-her-name, with the ten arms, was created because the gods weren't tough enough to beat this really powerful one….I think...we just studied this and I thought it was really cool, but now I can't seem to remember anything.
Indeed. I'm trying to search through Wikipedia to find a Ahura with the characteristics of Zoro's Ahura form, but so far I've found nothing.
Try Kali or Shiva, I think both of those dieties are represented with multiple limbs, dont know if they match the religion though
I think Asura's the only multi-headed/multi-faced one. Well, she is if Final Fantasy IV taught me anything accurate.
The Asura are a sect of gods, not one particular god, so I don't think Zoro's move has a specific god in mind (yet) - many of them have multiple limbs, so I think its more just in keeping with thier generic appearance than a particular Asura
Here is an excellent website for these kind of discussions:
Just about anything mythologically related can be researched here in some depth
Try Kali or Shiva, I think both of those dieties are represented with multiple limbs, dont know if they match the religion though
Indeed, though the problem is, is that they're not Ahuras, they're goddesses. Also, they only have four arms.
I looked at a list, and the only one I saw, that might be similiar, is a three headed dragon/serpant named, "Vritra."
The Asura are a sect of gods, not one particular god, so I don't think Zoro's move has a specific god in mind (yet) - many of them have multiple limbs, so I think its more just in keeping with thier generic appearance than a particular Asura
Here is an excellent website for these kind of discussions:Just about anything mythologically related can be researched here in some depth
My thougths are that Zoro started to synch' with his cursed swords (as Kyo in SDK) and each one of cursed swords own his owns skill. When you're a good Sword Man like Zoro they lend their cursed power to you. But I haven't any idea of which one of his Cursed Swords he "used" in this chapter…
There are so many ways Oda can go with this
He can either give the Asura stance more individual subset moves, or perhaps this is simply the first in a line of "god" moves where each will pull from different religions and take on different forms.
It really is a whole new world for Zoro, we've moved on from the animals to gods now.
He can either give the Asura stance more individual subset moves, or perhaps this is simply the first in a line of "god" moves where each will pull from different religions and take on different forms.
That would be freaking awesome.
The connection between Zoro and Asura is that they are both power hungry 'demons', I thought this was pretty straightforward and I find it funny seeing people make it out to be more than that.
One theory would be that Zoro is a mortal incarnation of the asura concept. He's not evil, and yet he certainly does seek a great amount of power.
I think the idea that Oda is looking into Zoroastrianism when he makes these connections is somewhat farfetched, Shinmeiryuu.
I would comment on how asura's relate to buddhist mythology and how Zoro's drive to be the greatest swordsman in the world could easily be seen as a desire of an asura (since in buddhist mythology they desire to get back to their original home higher up in mt. Sumeru, and how they currently reside at the base of the mountain, which is unsurprisingly under the ocean), but then I'd be contributing.
The connection between Zoro and Asura is that they are both power hungry 'demons', I thought this was pretty straightforward and I find it funny seeing people make it out to be more than that.
One theory would be that Zoro is a mortal incarnation of the asura concept. He's not evil, and yet he certainly does seek a great amount of power.
I think the idea that Oda is looking into Zoroastrianism when he makes these connections is somewhat farfetched, Shinmeiryuu.
http://www.amano.innerworld.pl/gallery/ff4/picture.php?img=asura.jpg&show=full
I would comment on how asura's relate to buddhist mythology and how Zoro's drive to be the greatest swordsman in the world could easily be seen as a desire of an asura (since in buddhist mythology they desire to get back to their original home higher up in mt. Sumeru, and how they currently reside at the base of the mountain, which is unsurprisingly under the ocean), but then I'd be contributing.
I was actually looking more into Hinduistic Ahuras, and looking for similiarities between particular Ahura deities, but you do have some good points. I didn't find anything relevent in that venture, but you seem to have come across some interesting information; I don't know why I didn't make that connection when I read the artical. Hmm… I think that I'll keep researching... Thanks for the insight...
I'm pretty sure Asura is the correct hindu name, with ahura being zoroastrian, could be wrong though, and I don't like to contribute. Also, I am aware that it was percieved as a group of dieties, even though in my post I refer to them as a unified concept, that is to say there are many in one.
Heh, found something that may be relevent: In Buddhism, the "State of Asura" is the mental state of being obsessed with violence, agitation, and always looking for a good excuse to fight. Mabey that reflects Zoro's state of mind while fighting Kaku, Kaku being very annoying, and all.
I also read what invisibleworm was posting about, yeah, didn't read about the Buddhist Asura, so, that's probably why I didn't catch it. I also think that I've confused the Ahura of Zoroastrianism, with concepts of the Hindu Asura… Eh... Sorry... Guese I'm not so great at this sort of thing.
Hey man it's not a trial, who cares about the semantics when some of the stuff you said was interesting. You got me to read some wiki and considering my personality, that says something.
Though to be honest the main reason I decided to post to you was because of your avatar, but hey, that's legitimate as far as I'm concerned.
Hey man it's not a trial, who cares about the semantics when some of the stuff you said was interesting. You got me to read some wiki and considering my personality, that says something.
Though to be honest the main reason I decided to post to you was because of your avatar, but hey, that's legitimate as far as I'm concerned.
My avatar, eh? Hmm… Well, anyway, I like to delve into this kind of stuff(Mythologies, deities, ect.), and when I looked into a linked wikipedia artical that was in stephen's(?) post, I really got into it. It's great to know that our favorite manga author is so profound as to refer to this kind of stuff within his characters, and that's why I seem so fanatical about this, I suppose.
I didn't even really consider the connection between the Asura and their lust for power as being something that Zoro and them have in common, and you noticed that right off the bat, which shows that you probably have a knack for this sort of thing.
here's the scanlation for this chapter: http://rapidshare.de/files/24536091/One_Piece_417_spamlation.zip.html
The wikipedia artical for "Asura"(Though, "Ahura" is a more appropriate term) says that they are mistakened as demons. They're more like dieteic devils.
The artical depicts them as being "supreme beings" that preside over motals.
Try and research, before you teach, mein freund.
Granted i may have blurred the line between Demons and Devils a bit (they're more or less the same thing in most cases), Blueblip was a lot more clear than i am. Dietic devils suits them right.
PS - It IS pronounced Asura and not Ahura in Sanskrit. Wikipedia is often wrong.
I grew up listening to these stories, so please refrain from telling others to "research more" especially when they know far more than you (in this case). Makes you look like an idiot ;)
Yeah, and what's-her-name, with the ten arms, was created because the gods weren't tough enough to beat this really powerful one….I think...we just studied this and I thought it was really cool, but now I can't seem to remember anything.
Yup that was Kali, an avatar of Parvati, Shiva's consort..in some texts.
I think your putting too much thought into this. We will just have to wait till next week to see how zoro "de transforms".
I think his eyes(and his demon aura) create illusions(like the way his swords were bending when he used ebima yonenzu) Evidence of the illusions is when kaku used kamie to dodge one of zoros strikes, but he was still hit. So zoros illusion made him misjudge where to dodge and get cut.
The thing is, zoro is aware of his power(he names his attacks afterthem) so (like sanjis leg) how long has he been aware of this ability?
I know this might not be correct, but its better than zoro using his chi to grow four arms and two faces WITH swords.
the thing is, what advantage would there be in creating an illusion if you could already cut through the amanedaichi. Im really stumped on this one. I kinda put together luffys gears and sanjis kick, but this is supremely confusing.
We all thought sanjis needed an explanation chapter, but plz oda, dont leave us in the dark, we need an explanation.
**I loved this chapter.
I'm 100% sure it's not spirit based. The OP world does have chi but no more than our world. I think most of it is speed based. He is moving around in a special way that allows him to "dupicate" his swords. He probaley constantly trained with certain muscles in his body constantly in order to do this. Muscles that don't help him in his normal sword fightig, but he can use them is a special way to do Asura. That's my take on it.
It could have something to do with sensing the enemys chi or something of the aword. But his energy isn't going to manefeist into extra arms and heads.**
Its almost irrelevent.
Wether its speed, chi, illusions, or whatever, I think Oda's intent is simply to show us that in the Asura stance, Zoro's power as a sword fighter increases dramatically. The extra limbs and heads are just eye candy and the visual reference for us as readers that he's accessed a new level of swordsmanship while in this stance.
Just as the animals were shown to show us Zoro has the "power" of that animal in his strikes, the Asura stance shows us that he figurtively has the power of a god/demon in this attack, thus is a much higher level assault. But I don't think its more more real than the animals were.
Just as Zoro uses his chi or spirit for the animal strikes, he also uses it for the Asura stance. Just this particular stance is much superior in power, to the point that the enemy even sees the actual illusionary manifestation of the Asura image on Zoro's body.
So no the swords aren't real, but at the same time, they might as well be, because the illusion is indicitive of the strength of the stance.
Thats a fairly kickass explanation, but its simple too, and its consistent with what Zoro has shown throughout the series to this point, so it works for me until Oda reveals specifics.
Its almost irrelevent.
Wether its speed, chi, illusions, or whatever, I think Oda's intent is simply to show us that in the Asura stance, Zoro's power as a sword fighter increases dramatically. The extra limbs and heads are just eye candy and the visual reference for us as readers that he's accessed a new level of swordsmanship while in this stance.
Just as the animals were shown to show us Zoro has the "power" of that animal in his strikes, the Asura stance shows us that he figurtively has the power of a god/demon in this attack, thus is a much higher level assault. But I don't think its more more real than the animals were.
Just as Zoro uses his chi or spirit for the animal strikes, he also uses it for the Asura stance. Just this particular stance is much superior in power, to the point that the enemy even sees the actual illusionary manifestation of the Asura image on Zoro's body.
So no the swords aren't real, but at the same time, they might as well be, because the illusion is indicitive of the strength of the stance.
Thats a fairly kickass explanation, but its simple too, and its consistent with what Zoro has shown throughout the series to this point, so it works for me until Oda reveals specifics.
"But the judge said he'd never summed up before,
So the Snark undertook it instead,
and summed it up so well that it came to far more
Than the witnesses ever had said"
–Lewiss Carol, "The Hunting of the Snark"
All quotations aside good work Odlam, I've been thinking the same thing but I haven't been able to put it into words.
Granted i may have blurred the line between Demons and Devils a bit (they're more or less the same thing in most cases), Blueblip was a lot more clear than i am. Dietic devils suits them right.
PS - It IS pronounced Asura and not Ahura in Sanskrit. Wikipedia is often wrong.
I grew up listening to these stories, so please refrain from telling others to "research more" especially when they know far more than you (in this case). Makes you look like an idiot ;)
Eh, What you said was a simple one liner, and I wasn't sure whether or not you knew, and I also didn't know that you were an expert(You certainly didn't come off as one with that vague explanation you gave me). Given the information I dug into last night, I would surmise that I'm no longer ignorant of this subject.
Next time, try to clarify, lest you look like an idiot, mein freund.;)
"But the judge said he'd never summed up before,
So the Snark undertook it instead,
and summed it up so well that it came to far more
Than the witnesses ever had said"
–Lewiss Carol, "The Hunting of the Snark"
Thx Voodzik, and I loooooooooooove this quote
To be honest, Shinmeiryuu, I have 'knacks' for just about everything.
I'm really interested in why some people believe the asura to be deitic, it seems to me that they lack redeeming quality.
To be honest, Shinmeiryuu, I have 'knacks' for just about everything.
I'm really interested in why some people believe the asura to be deitic, it seems to me that they lack redeeming quality.
My, aren't you gifted?
One could say that they're antaganistic deities, going against other gods, and also showing more "human" qualities like Jealously, and anger, and the weakness to things like alcohol. I do see your point, though.
Though, mabey not the form, per se, reflects the "Asura" of Zoro. Perhaps it's the state of mind, which somehow manafested itself into a tangable form, though all the while, being controled by Zoro. I don't know… for all we know, he could of put a suit on off-panel(Kidding, of course).
I like stephan's translation on this…
Seems like Zoro's whole spirit thing is starting to move into the high front now... that's cool. I wonder if this has anything to do with the cursed sword [if it hasn't killed Zoro cause of his spirit or if it's influencing these levels]
Great stuff… I just love how these fights are endding quick, with minimal damage to the SHs... kinda says to me "there's more fighting up ahead in this arc to look forward to"...
Plus I like how all the other SHs don't know about their crew members upgrades and moves. Just think about most fights, and who was watching it. They seem to trust each other on a very big level [i.e. i trust you to trust yourself to do 'x"]… great stuff.
I'm sure later on we will know more about Zoro new move.
comon guys, we are not reading a 'realistic' manga anyways.
Just wait until someone ask about it in SBS and see what Oda has to say :D
Generally speaking, when a 'deity' is cast down it loses it's status thus and is seens as demonic instead. Thus a combination of the terms would be contradictory, or even a display of ignorance.
This discussion dulls, and I'm to blame. This is why helping people understand/learn is such a pathetic thing that I generally avoid (unlike the gods which stupidly attempt to enlighten or entertain).
Now people are arguing semantics. I guess it's true that with fight chapters there really isn't much to discuss…
Do I hear an echo? It is the operah of understanding, marching down my window pane.
Generally speaking, when a 'deity' is cast down it loses it's status thus and is seens as demonic instead. Thus a combination of the terms would be contradictory, or even a display of ignorance.
This discussion dulls, and I'm to blame. This is why helping people understand/learn is such a pathetic thing that I generally avoid (unlike the gods which stupidly attempt to enlighten or entertain).
Well, I didn't refer to it whilst following the concepts of Hindu, or any sort of dogma; true, when cast down they are no longer thought of as deities, but they're still, all the same, deities, dispite their loss of status(At least, in my opinion, of course). Referring to them as "antaganistic deities" would mean that they're, most of the time, on the same level as gods in shere power, but they usually rise against other gods, or are opposed to the other gods in motive; Though, Asuras aren't, indeed, as divine as their Deva counterparts. The Asura, and the Devas were children of Sages, which would probably place them on the same 'feild' as one another, though they have opposed motives; Kind of like rivaling brothers. Meh, sorry; Didn't meant come off as idiotic; I am blatently not a theologist scholar.
I understand this alot more than I come off as, but I'm a complete dunce when it comes to expression.
Mabey I should stop discussing this here, I'm off topic, anyway.
Haven't you guys heard of the term "killer intent" or "killer aura"????
It's basically a common concept in traditional asian stories that people who are about to kill or with the intent of killing gives off a certain aura. Call it negative energy if you will, but the idea is that Kung Fu masters and other "super heros" of asian folklore/stories would have heightened senses that can detect this aura. Assasins are said to be trained to conceal this aura when they are about to kill. Frankly I would be surprised if you guys are completely unfamiliar with that term, even though it's complicated to translate properly because ALOT of japanese manga uses that term (DBZ,YYH,Ranma,Naruto, Tenten, hell even City Hunter).
Anyway the point is…. at super high levels, sometimes strong guys like Zoro will have an aura that gives manifestations, more commonly in the form of a Tiger or a Dragon. I don't know why people are taking this Asura thing so damn literally. Tatsumaki gives off a silhouette of a dragon, but it would look weird if Zoro's arms turned into a dragon. This Asura move is a so-called "9 sword style" which is at such high level that Zoro was giving off manifestations even before he got into his pose. A lot of mangas have characters whose moves are always drawn with the image of animals and deities (like Tenten for example); it's just that Zoro's 9 sword style is manifested in his own body is all.
^What he said, plus, I don't like the idea of speed. Zoro shaking his head from side to side so fast it looks like he has three heads? That's just weird. Arms, I can understand, but why his head?? He'll look just as fearsome 'growing' his arms alone.
All your flatlines are belong to me!!
^What he said, plus, I don't like the idea of speed. Zoro shaking his head from side to side so fast it looks like he has three heads? That's just weird. Arms, I can understand, but why his head?? He'll look just as fearsome 'growing' his arms alone.
Maybe because his head is a major part of his fighting style? I think the idea is to give of three times each blade to the oppenent. It could have some chi references in it. Like Zoro chaning his state of mind or sensing the enemy's chi. I do think it has stuff like that. but I doubt the energy would manifest into physical arms.
i think Kibagami has a point and i have been thinking that as well maybe his ki enegry is getting super strong that it can have body form
My mind is currently subscribing to a Ranma 1/2 styled explanation for Zoro's Asura technique: That his appearance is a "battle aura"; He doesn't physically have the extra limbs and blades, but they are manifestations of his spirit and psyche.
Whether the extra blades are operable or not remains to be seen. He didn't swing the blades much, and he walked through Kaku's attack and cut up him up no problem. He's probably doing some advanced tricks with "breath of all things" (ki, basically).
NewChapter 5
I think it was made kinda obvious already when Kaku was attacking Zoro and he made an illusion of three heads and six arms because of his blocking speed.
To be honest, why should the means be so important? The important thing is the result and it looks pretty damn badass. Zoro had three heads and six arms, Kaku could see it just as well as you could, whatcha gonna do about it?
Side-note: Kaku commented on Zoro's eyes, possibly a wink towards Mihawk?
