General Devil Fruit Discussion

Juvar

I hope you see what Im saying not sure if I made it perfectly clear or not.

I completely understand your viewpoint, I am tempted to think the same way, but then I fall back to mine…

then no other DF class(paramecia and zoan) should be able to become, create, control

Yeah, well there is no other DF class that can do this, that's what I was getting at when I said that this consistency has so far not been disproven, and therefore neither has my way of approaching this complication.

I guess what we are not connnecting on is the term logia. To me that is just a classification. It imparts no powers or special abilities its just a name, purely descriptive.

You say Oda considers it a force so therefore its a logia and because its a logia it grants the become, control, create. I say this is a logical fallacy. Just because Oda considers something a force doesnt mean it has to be a logia. Also, just because it is a logia doesnt mean it can become, create, control.

This is exactly where we don't agree, sadly, but I guess that's not a big deal anyways, since it doesn't exactly change anything. But I still hold true to the "Logia's are the power of natural elements, and can become this element, and therefore create and control it, too"… And that seems to be true for all Logia's - EXCEPT Blackbeard. And here is where I am a bit lost, which is mostly because we don't have enough information about his fruit. But if it is all about "Logia's can become create control", then this is false here, while the "Logia's are elemental" argument still stands. However, I guess this has something to do with his element, and the power - maybe he even could become "darkness" (which equals gravity in Oda's logic... why ever). Maybe he can't fully become this element simply because the gravity would then destroy him completely, like an implosion - does that make sense?

If what you say is true "Oda considers it a force of nature, therefore its a logia, therefore its granted become, create, control" and that is the whole point of the DF class(logia) then no other DF class(paramecia and zoan) should be able to become, create, control (after all what would be the point of a paramecia that could become, create, control but have oda say its not a force of nature so its paramecia even though it has all the powers of a logia.

Exactly my point, which is why this won't occur and hasn't so far… because it defies the rule.

Also, this is why it was pointed out to us that BBs fruit is special). If that is the case then any fruit that can become, create, control could only be a logia and thereby a force to Oda. So it would be perfectly ok to do as I suggest and say that logia are defined by become, create, control.

Well, that means we agree… doesn't it? I'm tired But I guess that yeah we are talking about the same thing. It' just not possible that there will be another class with the same abilities as a Logia, nor another class with an elemental force, so those are tied together and define what a Logia fruit is like and what powers it grants...

Hahah i just like having spirited debates that dont devolve into flaming or who is stronger or who will be next nakama or who will hook up with who. I like talking OP with people who think their opinions through then explain why they feel that way, even if they are wrong or misinformed (not saying that you are in this case).

Me too! And it feels good to debate with you, there's not that many people around for reasonable debates, tbh - it's either very short replies, or completely beside the point, or getting upset about why you don't agree with them

Refii

Here's my understanding of Blackbeard:

He cannot become Darkness/Gravity before being attacked, but once he receives an attack, he instantly out of subconscious will, becomes it.
His Darkness/Gravity, sucks up all of the damage he receives, thus instantly healing him.

In essence, he still processes the "become" step, but through a different process.
Either way, as Oda stated, it is the exception to the rule.

Johnny B. Decent

I wonder if it's just being unexperienced in it's use. Like the two main functions of it is gravity manipulation and matter absorbtion (I put the DF nullifer as a sub-category), yet he can only do about or two things of it thus far. Wouldn't be suprised he hasn't gotten the whole "Fully Become Your Element" thing down.

Psychosis

@Refii:

Here's my understanding of Blackbeard:

He cannot become Darkness/Gravity before being attacked, but once he receives an attack, he instantly out of subconscious will, becomes it.
His Darkness/Gravity, sucks up all of the damage he receives, thus instantly healing him.

In essence, he still processes the "become" step, but through a different process.
Either way, as Oda stated, it is the exception to the rule.

How is the issue of what's Logia and Paramecia still going on?
I thought it was cleared up pages ago.

In regards to Blackbeard and his phasing problem:
He. Is. Gravity. He is a WALKING, TALKING BLACK HOLE. It's not a matter of allowing an attack phase through him, he has to take the attack. He's not undamaged by attacks, see getting HACKNSLASHED by Whitebeard, but is likely durable on accout of things like plot-armor, author convenience, or simply having an atypical logia body (No, that's not what Marco was talking about.)
Blackbeard is a BAMF. Of course he has full control of his Devil Fruit, otherwise he wouldn't be terrifying.

But the real point is that Darkness is an absurd concept and cannot and SHOULD NOT be attempted to be explained by any sort of logic.

AppleSauce

@Psychosis:

How is the issue of what's Logia and Paramecia still going on?
I thought it was cleared up pages ago.

the discussion is more about logia fruits being force of nature or not…

according to oda they are from the sbs.

light,dark,quake,poison,wax,wind/storm,diamond,steel,etc....

There is a difference of opinion concerning what are force's of nature.

Psychosis

Didn't we as a whole determine that we were just hung up on the words "Force of nature?" That it was a translation thing that may not have carried over so fluidly? Or something?

Or are we seriously putting THIS much thought into One Piece?

Coruscation

Stephen's translation of the SBS where this statement is made in his next volume up (30). That should make things clear since most people around here should be willing to accept that he won't misunderstand the meaning of words, yes? Regardless of which side you're on.

Juvar

@Coruscation:

Stephen's translation of the SBS where this statement is made in his next volume up (30). That should make things clear since most people around here should be willing to accept that he won't misunderstand the meaning of words, yes? Regardless of which side you're on.

I'll just repost it then…

@Dokusha:

Hello, Oda-sensei! I have a question. Is Whitebeard, Edward Newgate, a Logia or a Paramecia? I personally think he's Logia, since he took Aokiji's attack without turning to ice, but…?
P.N. NY

@Oda:

I guess that's difficult. The answer is Paramecia. "Guragura no mi" is said to be the most powerful of the many paramecia fruits. It's easy to think that he's an "Earthquake Human" and must be Logia, but if that was so, he'd have to become an earthquake himself. Whitebeard creates earthquakes, in other words he's a "Vibration Human". That means he's a Paramecia who isn't any weaker than the Logias.

@Dokusha:

Greetings, Oda-sensei!! I have a question about Logia-type Devil Fruits. In Chapter 280, God Ener said something about "Paramecias' powers being limited to their body structure." So for cases where people can change their body shape, like Crocodile's Suna Suna powers or Ace or Smoker's powers, does that make them Logia types? If you don't answer me, I won't let you go to the bathroom! You'll p**p in the woods. P.N. Joke Laugh

@Oda:

I will not poop in the woods. Gosh, you're so vulgar. Poop in the woods. Honestly. I get a lot of these questions, so let's make a chart so it's easy to understand.

I omitted the list here, because, let's be honest, no one here needs to know which fruits are what class

Can you tell, now? The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the powers of nature, are extremely powerful within all the categories of powers.

Taken from the Arlong Park SBS section, which uses stephen's translation - I get what you mean though, his new, refined translation might clear up things a little better…

The whole debate (as Psychosis already mentioned) exists because people are 1. not agreeing on which "themes (elements)" are "powers of nature" and which aren't, and if this is the prerequisite to be a Logia, or the "create, become, control" thing. (Technically speaking it's both anyways, because these are intertwined - there won't be one without the other.)

Coruscation

Oh, that was Stephen? Makes me wonder why people kept making demands of me for a "good translation"…

But yeah, his revised translation should not leave any doubts. If it still says the same thing then this debate is over, no one can disagree with the nature association with a straight face when it comes from Oda himself and it is sure not to be a mistranslation.

Juvar

@Coruscation:

Oh, that was Stephen? Makes me wonder why people kept making demands of me for a "good translation"…

But yeah, his revised translation should not leave any doubts. If it still says the same thing then this debate is over, no one can disagree with the nature association with a straight face when it comes from Oda himself and it is sure not to be a mistranslation.

Speaking of revised translation…

@stephen:

SBS Corner

@Dokusha:

Greetings, Oda-sensei!! I have a question about Logia-type Devil Fruits. In Chapter 280, God
Ener said something about "Paramecias' powers being limited to their body structure."
So for cases where people can change their body shape, like Crocodile's Suna Suna powers
or Ace or Smoker's powers, does that make them Logia types? If you don't answer me, I
won't let you go to the bathroom! You'll p**p in the woods.
P.N. Joke Laugh

@Oda:

I will not poop in the woods. Gosh, you're so vulgar. Poop in the woods. Honestly.
I get a lot of these questions, so let's make a chart so it's easy to understand.

Code:
Paramecia Zoan Logia
–------- ---- -----
Gomu Gomu Ushi Ushi Moku Moku
Bara Bara - Model Bison Mera Mera
Sube Sube Hito Hito Suna Suna
Bomu Bomu Tori Tori Goro Goro
Kiro Kiro - Model Falcon
Doru Doru Mogu Mogu
Baku Baku Inu Inu
Mane Mane - Model Dachshund
Hana Hana Uma Uma
Supa Supa
Toge Toge
Ori Ori
Bane Bane

@Oda:

Do you get the idea? The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the
properties of nature, are particularly powerful among these categories.

So, for everyone: this is most probably the best, most accurate translation out there. Oda talks about Logia's being classified as "changing their living body structure into the properties of nature". There is no discussion there.
Sure, that means that they can (ever so popular along you us theorists') "become, create, control", but the nature part comes first.

Many thanks to stephen for the time and effort he puts into this.

Coruscation

Yep, that ends it. Denying the nature association at this stage would be very silly. People may complain as they will about Oda's definition being inconsistent and vague or what have you but the defining quality of the Logia class are that they are associated with nature. Just as Zoan are associated with animals.

Juvar

@Coruscation:

Yep, that ends it. Denying the nature association at this stage would be very silly. People may complain as they will about Oda's definition being inconsistent and vague or what have you but the defining quality of the Logia class are that they are associated with nature. Just as Zoan are associated with animals.

Totally. I really don't understand why some people have the urge to try and refute that simple fact.

themick

@Juvar:

Totally. I really don't understand why some people have the urge to try and refute that simple fact.

I dont think I ever denied a connection to nature. I just suggested that nature could have other meanings : nature = the earth, nature = the environment, nature = the persons body. Whatever nature is we still dont know the definition Oda uses when he thinks up Logia's or when deciding to make it logia or paramecia or whatever.

However I did deny that logia have to be a force of nature which this new translation you posted mentions nothing about. So therefore if you dont have to be a "force" that means you just need some kind of connection to nature (in Oda's eyes anyway). However, we have seen many fruits : wax, rubbber, posion, vibration, diamond, blade that have some connection to the earth or nature yet are paramecia's. Between these paramecia that I mentioned and the logia we know about the biggest differences are "nature" (which we truely dont know how Oda defines it) and "become, create, control". So like i said in another post it should be accetable to define logia as become, create, control. That is unless you feel that its possible for a logia to NOT become, create, control or for a paramecia to BE ABLE TO become, create, control which i dont really think anyone believes either of those.

Coruscation

As I've already said…

Nature = defining features for a Logia (the word Logia itself relates to nature, "nature class" of DFs)
Become, create, control = identifying features for a Logia.

For comparison:

Animals = defining features for a Zoan (the word Zoan itself relates to animals, "animal class" of DFs)
Human, hybrid, full animal = identifying features for a Zoan.

The distinction really is quite pointless for practical purposes since you can identify them just fine on "the 3" but I just want to get people to accept the nature connection and not try to deny it on flimsy grounds like "this and this doesn't belong to nature and is still a Logia, and this and this does but isn't one". We don't know Oda's exact definitions but we do know that he vaguely bases Logia on nature. Whatever you personally may feel about it that is still how Oda defines it in his manga and we abide by that until we hear otherwise.

AppleSauce

I wish Mr. 1 was a Logia, Liquid metallic alloy imagine the Awesomeness with that ability.(Terminator 2)
Diamond as well.

Though i have to agree with themick.

My Opinion is Oda picks and chooses with anything relating to nature, and decides if he wants to make it a logia or not.

If Ice can be a logia Why not Poison, or wax, blade.

Ice is solid just like blade/steel.

Add Heat to to the blade and you got Liquid Metallic alloy.

Technically speaking water/liquid/or snow Should be the Fruit for aoi kiji instead of Ice.

Since its the addition of cold that makes it ice.

So there can also be Blade/ Liquid Metallic alloy with the addition of heat.(this does exist in nature FYI)

So its that a logia has to have a connection to nature to make a logia and in the end if oda decides it.

This comparison can also be made by other natural Elements.

Juvar

@themick:

I dont think I ever denied a connection to nature. I just suggested that nature could have other meanings : nature = the earth, nature = the environment, nature = the persons body. Whatever nature is we still dont know the definition Oda uses when he thinks up Logia's or when deciding to make it logia or paramecia or whatever.

Don't worry, I wasn't saying that with you specifically in mind!! And yes you are completely right, I mean, the argument comes mostly from people not agreeing with what Oda considers to be a "power of nature" and therefore Logia and what not… And since they think that some elements shouldn't be considered a force, or the other way around, they look for a different definition for a Logia user, while it's all about perception.

But we DO have the definition, it's right up there in the SBS question!!

However I did deny that logia have to be a force of nature which this new translation you posted mentions nothing about.

It does. That's exactly what it's about.

@Oda:

The Logia type [are] able to change their living body structure into the
properties of nature.

That is the logic Oda goes by and if there were Logia's who did not change into properties (which I previously considered to be forces, powers - but yeah stephen's new translation changes this a bit, which I agree with and will abide by) then he wouldn't have expressed it this way. All his Logia powers will have "properties of nature" as a theme. The argument is only which "themes" can be considered as what, but in the end our opinions don't matter in the face of Oda deciding on it himself.

So therefore if you dont have to be a "force" that means you just need some kind of connection to nature (in Oda's eyes anyway).

Yeah, I agree with that.

However, we have seen many fruits : wax, rubbber, posion, vibration, diamond, blade that have some connection to the earth or nature yet are paramecia's. Between these paramecia that I mentioned and the logia we know about the biggest differences are "nature" (which we truely dont know how Oda defines it) and "become, create, control".

It is properties of nature, and once that is the theme, it is a Logia fruit and can therefore "become, create, control" this element. If you were to only define a fruit by "become, create, control" you'd get stuck with Blackbeard, and even though it is considered an "exception", it is exception enough to render this definition false - while the "properties of nature" one still applies. Also, you mentioned these Paramecia fruits, and that is simply a question of perception which Oda decides on ultimately, not us. Even if we don't agree on them not being "properties of nature", that's how it is. As far as I'm concerned it's more of a "mother nature" concept, natural elements, "forces" that exist without organic interference. There will always be disagreements, but it's a fact that our opinion and definition on what is considered what is simply meaningless here.

So like i said in another post it should be accetable to define logia as become, create, control.

Blackbeard.

That is unless you feel that its possible for a logia to NOT become, create, control

Blackbeard.

or for a paramecia to BE ABLE TO become, create, control which i dont really think anyone believes either of those.

Ok, Blackbeard may even be able to completely become his element, but again the order is twisted. And I don't disagree with the "become, create, control" part being true solely for Logia's, but it's not that this property DEFINES them as what they are! That is kind of like saying Zoan's are defined by turning into an animal, and not turning into an animal. No, I don't feel like either of this will happen, but case in point is that Logia's are as much defined by the turning into a natural element as Zoan's are defined by turning into an animal. And this grants them the ability to create and control said natural element, which is solely reserved to this class of Devil Fruit - just because it's not exactly part of the classification doesn't mean that that's not what they can do, and does not mean that other classes can do this either.

@Coruscation:

Nature = defining features for a Logia (the word Logia itself relates to nature, "nature class" of DFs)
Become, create, control = identifying features for a Logia.

For comparison:

Animals = defining features for a Zoan (the word Zoan itself relates to animals, "animal class" of DFs)
Human, hybrid, full animal = identifying features for a Zoan.

The distinction really is quite pointless for practical purposes since you can identify them just fine on "the 3" but I just want to get people to accept the nature connection and not try to deny it on flimsy grounds like "this and this doesn't belong to nature and is still a Logia, and this and this does but isn't one". We don't know Oda's exact definitions but we do know that he vaguely bases Logia on nature. Whatever you personally may feel about it that is still how Oda defines it in his manga and we abide by that until we hear otherwise.

Same line of thought exactly, just quoting for truth.

Refii

Originally Posted by Oda
Do you get the idea? The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the
properties of nature, are particularly powerful among these categories.
@Juvar:

So, for everyone: this is most probably the best, most accurate translation out there. Oda talks about Logia's being classified as "changing their living body structure into the properties of nature". There is no discussion there.
Sure, that means that they can (ever so popular along you us theorists') "become, create, control", but the nature part comes ~~first~~.

Many thanks to stephen for the time and effort he puts into this.

You just contradicted your own evidence.
Change comes before nature, the reason Logia's are logia's is because they can CHANGE their bodies.
Their bodies aren't always their element (Paramecia's such as Luffy - Rubber)
Their bodies CHANGE = BECOME.

Nature is involved, but nature is NOT the first and only pre-requisite, if anything it is secondary, by your own evidence.
Earthquakes, diamonds, wax etc are nature.
If you still don't get this major flaw in your argument and refuse to accept become, create, control then I just don't know what else to say.

Why the fuck would Oda state Blackbeard is the EXCEPTION to Logia's, unless BECOME CREATE CONTROL is the law?
IS HE AN EXCEPTION TO THE NATURE LAW????????
CHECK MATE.

Juvar

@Refii:

[qimg]http://apforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/qimg] Originally Posted by Oda
Do you get the idea? The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the
properties of nature, are particularly powerful among these categories.

You just contradicted your own evidence.
Change comes before nature, the reason Logia's are logia's is because they can CHANGE their bodies.
Their bodies aren't always their element (Paramecia's such as Luffy - Rubber)
Their bodies CHANGE = BECOME.

Nature is involved, but nature is NOT the first and only pre-requisite, if anything it is secondary, by your own evidence.
Earthquakes, diamonds, wax etc are nature.
If you still don't get this major flaw in your argument and refuse to accept become, create, control then I just don't know what else to say.

Why the fuck would Oda state Blackbeard is the EXCEPTION to Logia's, unless BECOME CREATE CONTROL is the law?
IS HE AN EXCEPTION TO THE NATURE LAW????????
CHECK MATE.

No, I didn't even contradict it, by saying they are defined by becoming a property of nature, which is Oda's definition, then BECOMING and NATURE is tied completely together and makes it the FIRST necessity for being considered a Logia. This then grants them to create and control this respective element. Nature is not just involved, it's the defining theme for Logia's, why don't people get that and want to argue against it when it's STATED right there?!

Read my post above.

What you consider a "flaw in my argument" isn't one even in the slightest. Read. Post. Above.

Saying I refuse to accept "become, create, control" as the primary abilities of a Logia is wrong as well. Read. Post. Above!

No reason to get angry over Blackbeard. "Become, create, control" is not the LAW for Logia's, it's just the most basic identifying abilities of them - NOT what classifies them as Logia's! That's why he's an exception, because his ABILITIES differ. Check ~~Mate~~ - Your move.

akagami7

@Refii:

Nature is involved, but nature is NOT the first and only pre-requisite, if anything it is secondary, by your own evidence.
Earthquakes, diamonds, wax etc are nature.

there is no point in add earthqueakes to your argument since the gura gura no mi doesn't make you able to change your living body structure into an earthquake.

Refii

there is no point in add earthqueakes to your argument since the gura gura no mi doesn't make you able to change your living body structure into an earthquake.

Jesus don't be daft man.

I'm not arguing what is and isn't a logia.
Or what nature based fruit allow the user to turn into an element of nature (Galdino doesn't turn into wax either, he creates it and controls it).
Earthquakes are a force of nature.

You didn't respond to my question though, which is it?
Is blackbeard an exception to become create control (the law)
or is he an exception to nature-based logia's (thus not all logia's are nature based)

I'll help you out, he can't not be "nature-based" (according to Oda's logic) because then light doesn't fit either.

Coruscation

What is this Blackbeard talk over exactly?

He is the same as all other Logia. His body becomes a property of nature (gravity) and he can create it as well as control it. He is an "exception" in that he can not simply let attacks pass through him, as he neatly explains to Ace. But that's not an exception from Logia fruits at their core it's just an exception from the trend among them that they can not be harmed by normal attacks.

akagami7

@Refii:

Jesus don't be daft man.

I'm not arguing what is and isn't a logia.
Or what nature based fruit allow the user to turn into an element of nature (Galdino doesn't turn into wax either, he creates it and controls it).
Earthquakes are a force of nature.

You didn't respond to my question though, which is it?
Is blackbeard an exception to become create control (the law)
or is he an exception to nature-based logia's (thus not all logia's are nature based)

I'll help you out, he can't not be "nature-based" (according to Oda's logic) because then light doesn't fit either.

You said

Nature is involved, but nature is NOT the first and only pre-requisite, if anything it is secondary, by your own evidence.
Earthquakes, diamonds, wax etc are nature.

It doesn't matter if earthqueakes are nature or not, even when earthquakes are nature the gura gura no mi still respects "The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the
properties of nature", gura gura no mi has nothin to do with the dsicussion but it seems that you are still talking about it, the same for the doru doru no mi. You should have only said "Steel, Rubber and Diamonds are nature", because they do change your body structure.
My point was that wax and earthquakes have nothing to do with the discussion.

If you wanted me to answer your question about blackbeard's fruit show me a link where Oda states his fruit as an exception (because I don't remember when it was, not saying that it didn't happen)

themick

I dont have a problem with BBs fruit. He is darkness aka gravity aka a blackhole. He is for all intents and purposes a walking blackhole which is always pulled together and compressed. This fundamental property of his fruit doesnt allow it to break into parts and let attacks pass through him, atleast not in the sense that other logia do.

The major problem here is that we dont know the definition of "nature" that Oda uses. To almost everyone earthquakes are natural forces and all that. Even in the SBS Oda seems to explain that although the gura gura was natural it wasnt a logia because WB couldnt turn into the DF "element" or fully become the "nature" of the DF.

If you accept nature you cant say it comes before become, create control. They are intrinsicaly tied together.

Take this hypothetical. Take the mera mera (ace's fruit). Lets pretend there is another one called the fireball fruit. It allows you to do everything the mera mera did EXCEPT turn into fire (thus allowing attacks to phase through you). It this a reasonable example too because we have seen many paramecia that can do this.

So because fire is obviously a nature thing it must be a logia because as people point out from the SBS logia is all about nature. Yet it cant become, create, control which all other logia can do. So this could mean become, create, control isnt required to be a logia. But wait! Oda said in another SBS that WB wasnt a logia because he couldnt become, create, control. This shows that to be a logia u need to be natural AND become, create, control. Take this another step and it could easily mean that a completly non natural thing could be allowed to become, create, control but be a paramecia because its not natural. According to people who say all that matters is being natural then this is surely possible.

I believe become, create, control because we dont know what Oda means when he says "nature" yet we do know what he means when he says "become". As far as we know "nature" could be anything and the only way to tell a Logia is become, create, control. I think that since he knew people would see quakes as natural yet wouldnt see him turning into them and get confused about logia he answered the question.

Motoss

Blackbeard still BECOMES gravity. He just can't dodge attacks like other Logias because gravity pulls everything into itself, it is a side-effect of his element type.

shadow

@Coruscation:

As I've already said…

Nature = defining features for a Logia (the word Logia itself relates to nature, "nature class" of DFs)
Become, create, control = identifying features for a Logia.

For comparison:

Animals = defining features for a Zoan (the word Zoan itself relates to animals, "animal class" of DFs)
Human, hybrid, full animal = identifying features for a Zoan.

The distinction really is quite pointless for practical purposes since you can identify them just fine on "the 3" but I just want to get people to accept the nature connection and not try to deny it on flimsy grounds like "this and this doesn't belong to nature and is still a Logia, and this and this does but isn't one". We don't know Oda's exact definitions but we do know that he vaguely bases Logia on nature. Whatever you personally may feel about it that is still how Oda defines it in his manga and we abide by that until we hear otherwise.

Serisouly now,except from Teach the Logia users JUST NEED TO BE ABLE TO REGENARATE and guess what, you have a logia.Enough with this "create,become,control".

It's simple and yet you guys continue to discuss this for 4 pages..

Juvar

@shadow:

Serisouly now,except from Teach the Logia users JUST NEED TO BE ABLE TO REGENARATE and guess what, you have a logia.Enough with this "create,become,control".

It's simple and yet you guys continue to discuss this for 4 pages..

"Just need to be able to regenerate"? That's the dumbest classification for a Logia I've seen so far.

I survived the buster call

To the best of my knowledge, the ability to not only become, but to create and control their element being part of the definition of what makes a logia a logia is canon, along with the connection to nature. I'm not sure at all why this has gone on so long. Regenerating most definitely is not part of that definition, as it has yet to be answered with any certainty, unless I missed something somewhere. My understanding is that, rather than regenerate, logias simply beocme their element, and when they are hit or cut or whatever, are not damaged in the way a normal body would be. If you think you have proof of regeneration, please provide links and such to back your claim up.

What I found interesting, if anyone would care to discuss this aspect, is that in the quote provided (Translation by Stephen) Oda says "The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the properties of nature…" not that they are changed into them by the act of eating the fruit, in the manner that Luffy was changed into rubber. This implies, I believe, a certain amount of control over the ability, as opposed to Vanessa's theory that they are in their elemental state by default, or all the time, or whatever) and again reopens all the old questions about how logias avoid getting hurt when they are hit unexpectedly and how haki works on them–and even brings into question the whole magma fisting scene with Ace again. I say, now with even more confidence than I said it before, that Ace chose to go solid in order to try and protect Luffy from the fist, which would have gone right through him if he were in his elemental state. I believe that he needed to be in his elemental state in order to get there on time, and that perhaps he was in a state somewhere in between (due to the fact that the picture shows him still flaming, yet the fist stops with him…) Comments?

shadow

No it's simple.
Oda writing a manga and when he says, Logia's are "power of nature" and with nature he means anything HE and US(readers) can easily understand as "nature" such as fire,ice,smoke,light etc etc.The concept its not only about "create become control",so far except from Teach ALL the Logia users can just regenerate their bodies because they ARE "nature".
It's doesn't need to be deep explained like you guys trying to do,bringin on nature in real life with nature in a manga.

Oda -> manga -> Logia DF=nature -> they can create what they are,become their element,control their element and as far as someone is able to regenarate himself or taking attacks like all the logias can do it's over.I cant understand why you continue this when all of us can understand when someone has a Logia DF or not,except from some cases like Magellan that needed time to be explained,but it's not so difficult.

I survived the buster call

LOL Shadow, at least stick to the same argument. Now you've switched to being a part of nature, (unless I am misunderstanding you?) which isn't what Juvar or I answered. We took on your regeneration claim. The inability to become their element, but only to create and control it, was what made Magellan and Mr. 3 Paramecia, as opposed to Logia, like Ace, Akainu and others. It is simple, really. I'm pretty sure this also was handled in an SBS somewhere…

Refii

Only Marco can regenerate due to his fruit.
Logia's become their element thus avoiding attack.
Akainu turned into magma and didn't heal from Whitebeard's injuries.

shadow

Yes Marco's fruit as Kizaru said it "rear even among the logias" it's not the same.
I am not talking about healing,it's simple like luffy punching smoker for example and he cant touch him,so there you have a logia.anyway i wont continue in this madness because all of us now what logia is yet we continue discussing..

themick

@I:

To the best of my knowledge, the ability to not only become, but to create and control their element being part of the definition of what makes a logia a logia is canon, along with the connection to nature. I'm not sure at all why this has gone on so long. Regenerating most definitely is not part of that definition, as it has yet to be answered with any certainty, unless I missed something somewhere. My understanding is that, rather than regenerate, logias simply beocme their element, and when they are hit or cut or whatever, are not damaged in the way a normal body would be. If you think you have proof of regeneration, please provide links and such to back your claim up.

What I found interesting, if anyone would care to discuss this aspect, is that in the quote provided (Translation by Stephen) Oda says "The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the properties of nature…" not that they are changed into them by the act of eating the fruit, in the manner that Luffy was changed into rubber. This implies, I believe, a certain amount of control over the ability, as opposed to Vanessa's theory that they are in their elemental state by default, or all the time, or whatever) and again reopens all the old questions about how logias avoid getting hurt when they are hit unexpectedly and how haki works on them–and even brings into question the whole magma fisting scene with Ace again. I say, now with even more confidence than I said it before, that Ace chose to go solid in order to try and protect Luffy from the fist, which would have gone right through him if he were in his elemental state. I believe that he needed to be in his elemental state in order to get there on time, and that perhaps he was in a state somewhere in between (due to the fact that the picture shows him still flaming, yet the fist stops with him…) Comments?

I have been saying that for a while (i think i even argued against vanessa or whoever). Of course Ace chose to be solid. His entire character was built around not running and not wanting to see people he cared about die. So he threw himself infront of Akainu to save Luffy. I do agree that his natural fruit ability was trying to make him intangible (because I believe it is an unconscious reaction, like breathing) yet he overruled it (thus why he has flames on his body). What would be the point of diving in front of akainu just to let the attack go through him and kill Luffy?

Cymelion

Hmmm Just a random question.

@Psychosis:

Psychosis' 3 Laws of Logia:

A Logia Devil Fruit user can turn into the substance of the Fruit.

A Logia Devil Fruit user can control the substance of the Fruit.

A Logia Devil Fruit user can create the substance of the Fruit.
That is all.

Got me to thinking has there been an instance in the manga of a Logia controlling the element of his power that he DID NOT create from himself.
I am thinking Crocodile - but I can't recall much …. was the quicksand event in the manga or the anime? Can't read the chapters anymore from work - but regardless has there been any other display since?

rubbereruben

@Cymelion:

Hmmm Just a random question.
Got me to thinking has there been an instance in the manga of a Logia controlling the element of his power that he DID NOT create from himself.
I am thinking Crocodile - but I can't recall much …. was the quicksand event in the manga or the anime? Can't read the chapters anymore from work - but regardless has there been any other display since?

Any time Aokiji uses his powers he usually freeze water or something else. So, yes. They can control some portion of their element outside themselves.
http://3.p.s.mfcdn.net/store/manga/106/57-553.0/compressed/done_piece_553_binktopia.04-05.jpg

alexwolf

@themick:

I have been saying that for a while (i think i even argued against vanessa or whoever). Of course Ace chose to be solid. His entire character was built around not running and not wanting to see people he cared about die. So he threw himself infront of Akainu to save Luffy. I do agree that his natural fruit ability was trying to make him intangible (because I believe it is an unconscious reaction, like breathing) yet he overruled it (thus why he has flames on his body). What would be the point of diving in front of akainu just to let the attack go through him and kill Luffy?

This is a very good point!
But we saw Ace getting hurt from Akainu's attack even when he didn't have to protect Luffy…And we also have Akainu stating about his DV superiority so i don't really know what to assume.
And finally i also believe that the intangible state is defintely not the default state of Logia DV users!If that was the case then they wouldn't be able to sit,walk and do whatever a normal human does....On the question about Enel not getting hit even in his sleep my answer is that either he was pretending to be sleeping or that he had trained his DV so good that he could activate it subconciously...

Cymelion

@rubbereruben:

[qimg]http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c553/4.html[/qimg][qimg]http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c553/4.html[/qimg]
Any time Aokiji uses his powers he usually freeze water or something else. So, yes. They can control some portion of their element outside themselves.
http://3.p.s.mfcdn.net/store/manga/106/57-553.0/compressed/done_piece_553_binktopia.04-05.jpg
[qimg]http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c553/4.html[/qimg]

Yeah sorry man - the images are broken to me - but I can check it when I am at home in like 9 hours or so - but Aokiji's Logia is kinda weird - Ice is just the result of temperature manipulation but also it's not like he can do much with it other then use it's chilling function.

What I mean is - could say Ace manipulate a fire that was not created by him?
Could Aikinu(spelling) control Lava the same way he does his own?

Juvar

@themick:

I have been saying that for a while (i think i even argued against vanessa or whoever). Of course Ace chose to be solid. His entire character was built around not running and not wanting to see people he cared about die. So he threw himself infront of Akainu to save Luffy. I do agree that his natural fruit ability was trying to make him intangible (because I believe it is an unconscious reaction, like breathing) yet he overruled it (thus why he has flames on his body). What would be the point of diving in front of akainu just to let the attack go through him and kill Luffy?

This is pretty much what I believe as well. And, as Buster Call pointed out, the "able to change" is very important as opposed to a simple "changes", since that supports what I said all along, that there are two states for a Logia user - a human body and an elemental state, and they are able to transform from one to the other. I remember having a pretty heated discussion with a member about this a while back.

Anyways, as far as I see it, this is exactly the part where you have to train your fruit - for example, if you are not used to it and are not careful, then you might turn into your element - like Ace did when he made the hat for Oars. It's similar to Kaku not having full control over his transformation when he got his fruit, although he managed to get used to it pretty quickly… I think the same is true for Logia's, and it makes only sense because, seriously, how weird would it be being able to change your body to a completely different state?

So, my theory here is that after a bit of training and getting used to the fruit, users stay consciously in their, what I think is the, default human form, and can change into their element at will - and now it get's tricky. Because as we know, some Logia's change into their element even when not paying attention (Kizaru, Enel). Now you can probably explain both of these with mantra. But I also like to believe that when getting used to the fruits power, it becomes an unconscious reaction to an attack of the body as opposed to consciously switching between the "forms", as to say. What I am not willing to believe though is that the elemental state is their normal form and they have to consciously force their body to stay in human form. That would mean that whenever they sleep they are but their respective element, which just can't be true. So I'm going with my "body gets accustomed to the fruit power/switches as unconscious reaction (reflex)" theory for now.

To get back to you, that's how I agree with you here on Ace overruling that reflex and staying in his human, solid form although he got attacked.

@Cymelion:

Yeah sorry man - the images are broken to me - but I can check it when I am at home in like 9 hours or so - but Aokiji's Logia is kinda weird - Ice is just the result of temperature manipulation but also it's not like he can do much with it other then use it's chilling function.

What I mean is - could say Ace manipulate a fire that was not created by him?
Could Aikinu(spelling) control Lava the same way he does his own?

I don't think they can, either it has been stated or someone made a damn good theory about it, but Logia's seem to only be able to control whatever element of their OWN BODY the created. That's why they always turn a part of their body to their element before they do an attack like that. Enel couldn't simply control lightning coming down, he had to create it by himself or use Maxim's power - which was also powered by him. Aokiji, when he freezes water, has to touch it first in some way, doesn't he? And Akainu, Ace, basically everyone first turn at least their hand to lava/fire/whatever when they make an attack. Crocodile seems weird here, and I'm not sure whether the quicksand was in the manga either… But he was connected to the sand, so I guess that works - like Aokiji freezes the water although he only touches one small part of it (that might be due to simple temperatures though). Or Oda didn't have the concept completely worked out then and it was simply badass as an attack.

Refii

@Cymelion:

What I mean is - could say Ace manipulate a fire that was not created by him?
Could Aikinu(spelling) control Lava the same way he does his own?

When Luffy freed Ace and they shot at them, Ace controlled the fire from the explosion, at least in the anime this much was clear. I suppose he could have used fire as a shield, but was still trapped at the time.

Crocodile is implied to be stronger in the desert due to having his element surrounding him, where as in the water he has his weakness surrounding him. So I would assume he can control sand that he doesn't create as well.

themick

@alexwolf:

This is a very good point!
But we saw Ace getting hurt from Akainu's attack even when he didn't have to protect Luffy…And we also have Akainu stating about his DV superiority so i don't really know what to assume.
And finally i also believe that the intangible state is defintely not the default state of Logia DV users!If that was the case then they wouldn't be able to sit,walk and do whatever a normal human does....On the question about Enel not getting hit even in his sleep my answer is that either he was pretending to be sleeping or that he had trained his DV so good that he could activate it subconciously...

Yea the only real reason i can see for Oda including the scenes showing ace getting hurt by DF superiority is to show Akainu's truly superior power. Not only was he more experienced and probably stronger physically but he had haki and a DF of such power that he didnt even really need those other advantages. This is to highlight Ace's philosophy of never running, even when he should (like Roger) and knows he cant match up to his opponent. Also, it shows that when Ace jumped in front of Akainu he knew what he was doing and knew he would die because even if he was intangible he would still be hurt bad.

I agreee with the second part.

@Cymelion:

Yeah sorry man - the images are broken to me - but I can check it when I am at home in like 9 hours or so - but Aokiji's Logia is kinda weird - Ice is just the result of temperature manipulation but also it's not like he can do much with it other then use it's chilling function.

What I mean is - could say Ace manipulate a fire that was not created by him?
Could Aikinu(spelling) control Lava the same way he does his own?

I dont think we have seen any one do what you are saying. That would seem pretty crazy if they could too. I do seem to recall after croc created the sandstorm to yuba he said after it built up a bit even he couldnt stop it. Well if he couldnt stop a sandstorm that he created after growing naturally for a few seconds then it would seem that logia cant manipulate their element after a certain point. So ace could control his fire to burn a house but once the fire took and spread on its own naturally it wouldnt be under his control anymore.

Refii

@themick:

I dont think we have seen any one do what you are saying. That would seem pretty crazy if they could too. I do seem to recall after croc created the sandstorm to yuba he said after it built up a bit even he couldnt stop it. Well if he couldnt stop a sandstorm that he created after growing naturally for a few seconds then it would seem that logia cant manipulate their element after a certain point. So ace could control his fire to burn a house but once the fire took and spread on its own naturally it wouldnt be under his control anymore.

Akainu can't control/aim his magma fists from heaven either, at least it didn't seem that way.

I think it makes sense in terms of physics that if a force is too great, even if you can control the element of that force, you can't stop that force (because you initiated it with all of your might, so you're not stronger than your strongest attack magnified).

Coruscation

I think it's like this…

If a Logia is "immersed" in their element, then they can extend themselves to it and to an extent control it. Like you said, Ace definitely controlled the fires from the explosions when he was freed by Luffy. I think there's also an example where Ace, in his coverstory, jumped into a burning ship and got someone out where it might've been shown as well though I don't remember that too clearly. We saw Crocodile do this:

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2285-5/one-piece/chapter-178.html

Which seems a lot like controlling to me rather than just cutting or something (that crevace was made by Spada). Also, look at Enel here:

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2400-7/one-piece/chapter-293.html

It seems like he was controlling the lightning from the clouds, probably by extending himself into it. Let's relate this to Akainu… I imagine that if he jumped into a pit of molten lava, he could make it gush up at multiple spots at once or even make the whole thing rocket up, because he's fully immersed in it, basically combining himself with the already existing lava (like Ace and the fire from the cannonballs).

However, I don't think Logia users can just control anything that's their element, anywhere. Like when the inevitable Wind / Air Logia pops up, I doubt they'll be able to manipulate the air itself in a huge area just because they themselves are Air, but they would be able to "merge" themselves with it and exert some amount of control. And when said boat was on fire in the coverstory I mentioned, Ace couldn't just take control of the fire and make it vanish or send it away or something. Kind of like Crocodile and the sandstorm.

Well, that's just my ramblings on the matter.

Refii

I agree with your explanation.

Zeifyra

I have a question…Why can Hancock turn cannonballs into stone??? Doesn't the Mero Mero no Mi turn those with affection to the user into stone??

akagami7

@Zeifyra:

I have a question…Why can Hancock turn cannonballs into stone??? Doesn't the Mero Mero no Mi turn those with affection to the user into stone??

that's only the mero mero merrow
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v53/c516/15.html
her other techniques like perfume femur and slave arrow can turn into stone anything, although those techniques need to contact with the objective, meanwhile mero mero merrow not.

Zeifyra

@akagami7:

that's only the mero mero merrow
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v53/c516/15.html
her other techniques like perfume femur and slave arrow can turn into stone anything, although those techniques need to contact with the objective, meanwhile mero mero merrow not.

I guess what I'm saying is that isn't the Mero Mero no Mi like based on emotions? That's the part I'm confused about.

akagami7

@Zeifyra:

I guess what I'm saying is that isn't the Mero Mero no Mi like based on emotions? That's the part I'm confused about.

it seems not, only that specific technique is related with emotions, And I don't remember us to receive a explanation about his fruit, so, if i am wrong, can anyone refresh my memory?

Zeifyra

@akagami7:

it seems not, only that specific technique is related with emotions, And I don't remember us to receive a explanation about his fruit, so, if i am wrong, can anyone refresh my memory?

Alright, thanks. It makes more sense if only the Mero Mero Merrow is based off emotions…

ShenLong Kazama

So what about the Yami Yami no Mi? Although Blackbeard can't let attacks pass through him he can absorb them. Could he also use his darkness to surround him like a cloak to absorb attacks?

Motoss

I would think not, because to be technical, although his fruit is referenced as a "darkness" element, it is more of the traits of "gravity." If he becomes gravity, attacks are pulled in to him. Other logias don't absorb attacks, they "dodge" them by using their intangible state to not get hit. Blackbeard can turn into "gravity" but when he does that he still gets hit anyways because instead of dodging attacks he attracts attacks. So really, the only good thing about his fruit is the ability to negate Devil Fruits. Otherwise, it is pretty lame imo (except maybe the move where he sucks everything up).

IDC

yeah because if he couldn't render dfs useless he would be a moving target.