General Devil Fruit Discussion

[themick]

@Juvar:

Point here, Jinbe hitting the air in one of the latest chapters - he created some sort of shockwave that even affected the water in Luffy's body, which he most definitely had not physical contact with. So, there you go.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

No no no I was reading through everything, but the point is even if you can "become, create and control", that still wouldn't automatically make you a Logia, since ODA's definition involves "forces of nature" - which I agree is a rough and therefore not accurate translation, but it works. All the Logia's we've been introduced to are arguably "forces" of nature, so I see no problem with that. And since they are Logia, they are able to "become, create and control" - NOT the other way around.

You're RIGHT though saying that having a fruit related to nature, even a "force", does not automatically make a Logia either. It's a concept following Oda's perception of which "elements" are considered as a "force", and which aren't. I put force in quotation marks just to point out that the word is not accurate. Discuss!

Edit: It still fits, Whitebeard is per se not a "force" of nature, so everything is perfectly following the same train of thought.

Earthqukes/vibrations are as much a force as light waves/particles. So now people are saying you have to be a force AND be able to become, create control? Oda never said that in the SBS.

To me the word logia is just a term. It is defined by certain parameters. It does not do the defining. If we say logia is defined by force of nature AND become create and control then we can argue that. Like WB is a force of nature but cant become, create, control. So he wouldnt be a logia. However that isnt what people have been saying.

I just think we have been shown through the manga and characters within that logia become, create, control and that the force of nature thing in the SBS is in the sense that you become a pure entity or pure "element" if you will. You also command incredible power hence becoming a great force.

I dont see Oda painting himself into a corner by making logia's natural forces only or whatever. There doesnt seem to be a reason he made WB a paramecia and not a logia. Seems like a waste of very limited forces.

Also, I doubt we will see a non force that can become, create, and control. So if no paramecia can or will be able to become, create, and control then why even worry about the force of nature thing? All that would do is confuse things in cases like WBs.

Oh and I dont think the force thing is clear because a swamp isnt a force and sand isnt a force. Also, people say "oh u cant be earthquake logia because that makes no sense and how do u draw that". That must mean a wind logia is impossible because thats just as hard to show as an earthquake logia would be.

Oh and people that point out deserts and such well thats caused by mountains and winds not the sun or light.

[mcdreamy]

@Juvar:

Point here, Jinbe hitting the air in one of the latest chapters - he created some sort of shockwave that even affected the water in Luffy's body, which he most definitely had not physical contact with. So, there you go.

It was a chain effect, like a wave. Jinbei definitely had contact with water and that water afftected other water molecules and tranferred the power to the water in Luffy's body. But besides that, Jinbei can't just point his finger at the ocean and make it swallow a ship, or point at somebody and make the water in their body crush their internal organs. That's what I mean by a godlike ability. I would have explained it like this earlier but I figured people could use their own imaginations and look at the possibilities.

[Coruscation]

Themick you do realize that Logia means Nature System, right? How can you sit there and claim that there isn't a connection to nature? It's like trying to argue that Zoan fruits have no relation to animals it's only about having three different transformations.

Even if that SBS isn't the exact words or whatever, Logia is the Nature class of Devil Fruits. It literally means that. Oda does a bit of whatever he wants with what exactly constitutes a "force of nature", just like he has a "Buddha statue" for a Zoan fruit, that doesn't mean you can just ignore the connection to nature and animals respectively for Zoan and Logia. Logia are no more defined by become, create, control than Zoan fruits are defined by human, hybrid, animal. It's properties that they all have but they're not what define them. That is "nature" and "animals".

[IDC]

And since the buddah statue is golds it's a mineral there for connected to nature

[themick]

@Coruscation:

Themick you do realize that Logia means Nature System, right? How can you sit there and claim that there isn't a connection to nature? It's like trying to argue that Zoan fruits have no relation to animals it's only about having three different transformations.

Even if that SBS isn't the exact words or whatever, Logia is the Nature class of Devil Fruits. It literally means that. Oda does a bit of whatever he wants with what exactly constitutes a "force of nature", just like he has a "Buddha statue" for a Zoan fruit, that doesn't mean you can just ignore the connection to nature and animals respectively for Zoan and Logia. Logia are no more defined by become, create, control than Zoan fruits are defined by human, hybrid, animal. It's properties that they all have but they're not what define them. That is "nature" and "animals".

That is wrong. Otherwise WB would have been a logia.

Also, where does it say logia means nature system? every meaning i have looked at says logia means "account" or "saying" in greek or latin. So unless you are just taking what the wiki says please provide me some evidence.

[Coruscation]

He wasn't one because he was a vibration man. Vibrations do not fall under Oda's idea of "nature". It's as simple as that. You can't take your own idea of what should constitute one or not over what Oda portrays as the case in his manga. As I said it's exactly the same as saying that Zoans are defined by human, hybrid, full animal and not by what the damn word Zoan means and the obvious association to animals. Those as well as the three properties of Logia are identifying features not defining features. It's nitpicking alright and quite meaningless since you can identify the fruits just fine either way, but I'm only pressing this because you keep trying to deny the connection to nature.

I'm counting on the Wiki for this one. They say stuff like "Lucci is one of the strongest people in the series" but raw translations like that I haven't known them to get wrong, let alone so wrong that they'd add a word that is completely unrelated. Logia is constantly associated with nature everywhere I've ever seen (my Swedish copies calls them "Nature Fruits") so I've no reason to distrust it.

[IDC]

By Nature he means has connection to the earth and earthquakes don't fall under that category

[themick]

@Coruscation:

He wasn't one because he was a vibration man. Vibrations do not fall under Oda's idea of "nature". It's as simple as that. You can't take your own idea of what should constitute one or not over what Oda portrays as the case in his manga. As I said it's exactly the same as saying that Zoans are defined by human, hybrid, full animal and not by what the damn word Zoan means and the obvious association to animals. Those as well as the three properties of Logia are identifying features not defining features. It's nitpicking alright and quite meaningless since you can identify the fruits just fine either way, but I'm only pressing this because you keep trying to deny the connection to nature.

I'm counting on the Wiki for this one. They say stuff like "Lucci is one of the strongest people in the series" but raw translations like that I haven't known them to get wrong, let alone so wrong that they'd add a word that is completely unrelated. Logia is constantly associated with nature everywhere I've ever seen (my Swedish copies calls them "Nature Fruits") so I've no reason to distrust it.

That line of reasoning would apply to bad authors which we know Oda is not.

[Coruscation]

He has a "Buddha statue" fruit for his "Animal" class. I think he cares less than you think he cares about being meticulous about what's what.

[Yo Giraffe]

He is saying that vibrations do not fall under the category of "nature"

[IDC]

This post is deleted!

[IDC]

Yeah so why is sangoku in the animal category

[Coruscation]

Mythological Zoan is vague. IIRC his fruit is actually "Buddha statue" specifically and not "Buddha" which if it was you could take the stance that humans are also animals, like with Chopper's, so… eh, I've no clue.

[IDC]

Oh I get it since he's in the shape of a golden man it turns out he is a mythical zoan because that is a mythical figure even though buddah actually lived

[Refii]

@IDC:

By Nature he means has connection to the earth and earthquakes don't fall under that category

What?
Since when does nature not mean Earth or Earthquakes?
Is Sand not considered Nature? Where does Sand come from ass?

@Coruscation:

I'm counting on the Wiki for this one.

One Piece wiki's are written by idiots.

They say stuff like "Lucci is one of the strongest people in the series" but raw translations like that I haven't known them to get wrong, let alone so wrong that they'd add a word that is completely unrelated. Logia is constantly associated with nature everywhere I've ever seen (my Swedish copies calls them "Nature Fruits") so I've no reason to distrust it.

Greek Translations call Luffy Drake and Zoro Blackjack, I guess that is the official translation????

Common sense man, get some.

@themick:

That is wrong. Otherwise WB would have been a logia.

Also, where does it say logia means nature system? every meaning i have looked at says logia means "account" or "saying" in greek or latin. So unless you are just taking what the wiki says please provide me some evidence.

Yes, please SOMEONE SHUT ME UP and show me how Logia translates into Nature Systems in some non-idiotic form of translation such as the Swedish translations.

@Coruscation:

Themick you do realize that Logia means Nature System, right? How can you sit there and claim that there isn't a connection to nature? It's like trying to argue that Zoan fruits have no relation to animals it's only about having three different transformations.

Even if that SBS isn't the exact words or whatever, Logia is the Nature class of Devil Fruits. It literally means that. Oda does a bit of whatever he wants with what exactly constitutes a "force of nature", just like he has a "Buddha statue" for a Zoan fruit, that doesn't mean you can just ignore the connection to nature and animals respectively for Zoan and Logia. Logia are no more defined by become, create, control than Zoan fruits are defined by human, hybrid, animal. It's properties that they all have but they're not what define them. That is "nature" and "animals".

Show me in the manga, where that is the definition of a Logia please.
Zoan's have more than 3 transformations, even outside of Chopper's rumble balls, there are Awakened Zoans. Lucci unlocked an intermediate 4th form as well, so he could technically have 5 forms in theory.

I see no reason why a non-nature element cannot become a Logia, swamps aren't really an element, neither is light or darkness; this is clearly Pokemon logic.

Before as Urouge said, this was an issue of getting hung up on "Forces" of nature, but now you're creating rules that simply make no sense to define a Logia.

[Yo Giraffe]

@Refii:

What?
Since when does nature not mean Earth or Earthquakes?
Is Sand not considered Nature? Where does Sand come from ass?

He was saying that vibrations aren't nature

[Refii]

He was saying that vibrations aren't nature

No, Vibrations are energy, like Light and Electricity.
They can create Earthquakes, like Light can create Lasers and Electricity Lightning.

Again, not saying WB was/should have been a logia, but your definition of a logia is flawed.
You're using the description of Logia's (elements of nature) to define/translate what a Logia is, which isn't sound, much like Zoan's can define Dinosaurs, Mythological beings and Buddha.

[Gallan]

Just throwing this out there for fun discussion and even more candy for the Cerberus Theory supporters:

"Hito Hito No Mi: Model Grim Reaper" :P

[Ryuksgelus]

@Refii:

No, Vibrations are energy, like Light and Electricity.
They can create Earthquakes, like Light can create Lasers and Electricity Lightning.

Again, not saying WB was/should have been a logia, but your definition of a logia is flawed.
You're using the description of Logia's (elements of nature) to define/translate what a Logia is, which isn't sound, much like Zoan's can define Dinosaurs, Mythological beings and Buddha.

Light and electricity are made up of particles and electromagnetic waves. Vibrations are a movement through particles. Its not a thing, its an action, a motion, an oscillation. Neither of three are energy though you need energy to start an oscillation. Electricity and Light are more complicated than that. When people say electric, nuclear, thermal , solar, etc. they are only defining the method of producing energy. The cliche idea of energy doesn't exist. Its more of a concept.

What?
Since when does nature not mean Earth or Earthquakes?
Is Sand not considered Nature? Where does Sand come from ass?

Earthquakes are not made out of earth. You're too hung up on semantics. An earthquake is just a huge vibration created by tectonics plates or the earth. Its the same exact principle as throwing something in water and watching a ripples form. It cannot be based on our logic and reading comprehension a Logia. Its like saying there can be a mudslide or avalanche logia. Those, like earthquakes, are just motions involving specific substances.

@IDC:

Oh I get it since he's in the shape of a golden man it turns out he is a mythical zoan because that is a mythical figure even though buddah actually lived

And a Phoenix likely lived in OP world as well. We know Dragons do and that is guaranteed as a future mythical Zoan. Budha actually living doesn't contradict him being a mythical figure in OP. Myth and legends are different. Legends aren't based in reality at all like Prometheus, Atlas, or Medusa. Myths are exaggerated stories loosely based on real events or people. There really as a Trojan war but the stories surrounding it are myths. Doesn't mean every thing said in those myths is false. If we knew less about Siddhartha Gautama historically in our world he'd be considered a myth too.

Now Sengoku is actually a Daibutsu statue but I think that is just turning into a man who has the same powers Budha had a long time ago in OP without turning into the actual man. Maybe Vegapunk will explain that one.

[AppleSauce]

Also Dragon Most likely isn't a logia but a paramecia.

That's the feeling am getting.

I see alot of similarities between The earthquake fruit and Dragons Wind fruit(yes am aware we don't know for sure dragons ability but its pretty obvious.)
Both abilities have been shown to bring about natural disasters.

Now that said.

Wind is without a doubt a force of nature.

If dragon ends up being a paramecia (which most likely is the case) than Logia's being forces of nature definition needs to be changed, or just explained better.

[Ryuksgelus]

Crocodile can't bring about a natural disaster?

Only way Dragon is a paramecia is if he is a weather-man not a wind man.

Weak comparison. WB generates VIBRATIONS big enough to create tsunami and earthquakes. Those are extra benefit of his fruit just like pushing air is a extra benefit of Kumas or Flying is an extra benefit of Buggy's.

[Refii]

@Ryuksgelus:

Light and electricity are made up of particles and electromagnetic waves. Vibrations are a movement through particles. Its not a thing, its an action, a motion, an oscillation. Neither of three are energy though you need energy to start an oscillation. Electricity and Light are more complicated than that. When people say electric, nuclear, thermal , solar, etc. they are only defining the method of producing energy. The cliche idea of energy doesn't exist. Its more of a concept.

• Light is measured in the amount of energy units it carries, that also determines the way we process what we see (colors).
  Atomic Photons are viewed as light or energy particles.
• Vibrations are the waste of stored potential energy, when it is released it is transformed and measured as kinetic energy.
• Electricity is a source of energy.
  Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted.

There is nothing cliche about that.
There is something highly unscientific about considering a swamp a force of nature however

Earthquakes are not made out of earth. You're too hung up on semantics. An earthquake is just a huge vibration created by tectonics plates or the earth. Its the same exact principle as throwing something in water and watching a ripples form. It cannot be based on our logic and reading comprehension a Logia. Its like saying there can be a mudslide or avalanche logia. Those, like earthquakes, are just motions involving specific substances.

The absence of light (darkness) is not an element of nature, it is the absence of elements.
Swamps are not elements of nature.
Lava is not an element of nature.
Earthquakes are a force of nature.

Whitebeard and Jozu are not a logia because they cannot become, create, control.
Smoker is a logia because he can create, become, control.

Again, in no discernible language does logia mean natural forces or whatever badly translated shit you're trusting.

[IDC]

And smoke is a part of nature

[Refii]

I know you're trolling me, but it's a chemical byproduct of fires, much like earthquakes are a byproduct of the plates of the earth moving.

Poison, Wax, Rust, Diamond's are part of nature

[IDC]

No I wasn't I was agreeing cause volcaneos create sulfur and smoke when they erupt

[Coruscation]

Common sense man, get some.

3 translations tell me the same thing, match up with what the manga shows, I've never seen any translation saying otherwise anywhere and I need to get common sense for trusting them? Regarding the accuracy of the Swedish ones specifically I have often compared them with Stephen's and they tend to be quite well done.

Zoan's have more than 3 transformations, even outside of Chopper's rumble balls, there are Awakened Zoans. Lucci unlocked an intermediate 4th form as well, so he could technically have 5 forms in theory.

• we don't know what Awakened Zoans are,
• Lucci has 3 forms he modified the hybrid from with Life Return.

It's the same exact thing. Logia are defined by their connection to nature, they're the "nature class" of Devil Fruits. So 3 different translations tell me at the moment, what else does it mean if not that? Would be real nice if we could get someone in here who can look at the original Japanese manga.

[Juvar]

:happy:@Coruscation:

3 translations tell me the same thing, match up with what the manga shows, I've never seen any translation saying otherwise anywhere and I need to get common sense for trusting them?

• we don't know what Awakened Zoans are,
• Lucci has 3 forms he modified the hybrid from with Life Return.

It's the same exact thing. Logia are defined by their connection to nature, they're the "nature class" of Devil Fruits. So 3 different translations tell me at the moment, what else does it mean if not that? Would be real nice if we could get someone in here who can look at the original Japanese manga.

Not much to add, on my phone therefore short, but I agree with Coruscation. The "become, create, control" definition that most people around here seem to get a hard on about is just what the nature class grants them as powers, it does NOT serve as definition as to what Logias are about - sure, when you see a fruit being able to do that, it's a Logia, but only nature related elements are able to do that, simple as that really. I really don't understand why only a few seem to get this when the concept is really not that difficult to understand… :wassat:

[Monkey D]

@Refii:

Lava is not an element of nature.

Then what it is ? (serious question).

[shadow]

@Refii:

What?
Since when does nature not mean Earth or Earthquakes?
Is Sand not considered Nature? Where does Sand come from ass?

One Piece wiki's are written by idiots.
Greek Translations call Luffy Drake and Zoro Blackjack, I guess that is the official translation???

Common sense man, get some.QUOTE]

Offtopic,but i am from greece and when Drake introduced during SA i couldnt stop laughing..
Greek translations DESTROYED the series,i mean the series was "Drake,the treasure hunting" shanks=samy sanji=sany…Thank got it stopped because they ruined everything.

[Reyairia]

@AppleSauce:

Also Dragon Most likely isn't a logia but a paramecia.

That's the feeling am getting.

I see alot of similarities between The earthquake fruit and Dragons Wind fruit(yes am aware we don't know for sure dragons ability but its pretty obvious.)
Both abilities have been shown to bring about natural disasters.

Now that said.

Wind is without a doubt a force of nature.

If dragon ends up being a paramecia (which most likely is the case) than Logia's being forces of nature definition needs to be changed, or just explained better.

Not really, dragons in eastern mythology are known for controlling the weather.

I hope there's two dragon models; one for eastern and one for western.

Although Dragon having the dragon fruit is too obvious for One Piece.

[Sagippio]

come on guys, "nature" (shizen) in shizen-kei (logia) means the nature of the body that literally becomes the "element" of the DF, which is why they call it "flowing body".

[themick]

@Juvar:

:happy:

Not much to add, on my phone therefore short, but I agree with Coruscation. The "become, create, control" definition that most people around here seem to get a hard on about is just what the nature class grants them as powers, it does NOT serve as definition as to what Logias are about - sure, when you see a fruit being able to do that, it's a Logia, but only nature related elements are able to do that, simple as that really. I really don't understand why only a few seem to get this when the concept is really not that difficult to understand… :wassat:

They are classified as logia because they can become their pure DF "power", "element", "form", "force" or whatever else you want to call it.

So but by your reasoning then the definition of logia is any fruit that is nature element related. Well im sorry but WBs vibrations are a part of nature and he was a paramecia. Also, you are trying to define logia as nature class fruits by saying its nature class. You cant define a word with itself.

@Sagippio:

come on guys, "nature" (shizen) in shizen-kei (logia) means the nature of the body that literally becomes the "element" of the DF, which is why they call it "flowing body".

Thank you! People keep saying "element" as in it having to be some natural disastor or some property of the earth or universe. They fail to look at it from the point of it being one homogeneous body or element or force or whatever.

[Juvar]

@themick:

They are classified as logia because they can become their pure DF "power", "element", "form", "force" or whatever else you want to call it.

So but by your reasoning then the definition of logia is any fruit that is nature element related.

Nope, again, not any nature related fruit per se, but a nature related element that falls into this category as what Oda perceives to be a "force" of nature. Lost in translation. Anyways, moving on:

Well im sorry but WBs vibrations are a part of nature and he was a paramecia.

It's NOT about "being a part of nature", I've said that too many times already and it's seriously not that hard to get! Vibrations are a motion of particles, kinetic energy, they are not whatsoever an "element" or "force of nature" by themselves, there always has to be something creating those vibrations first! One of the major points. And again this was answered by Oda in an SBS and I'm actually going to find it for you now coz' I can't be bothered repeating myself any longer…

@Dokusha:

Hello, Oda-sensei! I have a question. Is Whitebeard, Edward Newgate, a Logia or a Paramecia? I personally think he's Logia, since he took Aokiji's attack without turning to ice, but…?
P.N. NY

@Oda:

I guess that's difficult. The answer is Paramecia. "Guragura no mi" is said to be the most powerful of the many paramecia fruits. It's easy to think that he's an "Earthquake Human" and must be Logia, but if that was so, he'd have to become an earthquake himself. Whitebeard creates earthquakes, in other words he's a "Vibration Human". That means he's a Paramecia who isn't any weaker than the Logias.

And yeah, this again is only a translation, but you get the rough idea. I know you'll say now "oh but it says >he'd have to become an earthquake himself if he was a Logia< so that supports that to be a Logia you only have to become an element?!" and I'll answer yet again that this is simply what a Logia's ability is, not how it defines them - what is meant by this is that if he WAS a Logia you'd be able to SEE it because he WOULD turn into an earthquake himself. But it is THIS way, and not the other way around. Just like you can see that if someone in the OPverse turns into an animal, you know he's a Zoan. That doesn't classify it per se though, it's the ability that the fruit gives him. Voilà.

@Dokusha:

Greetings, Oda-sensei!! I have a question about Logia-type Devil Fruits. In Chapter 280, God Ener said something about "Paramecias' powers being limited to their body structure." So for cases where people can change their body shape, like Crocodile's Suna Suna powers or Ace or Smoker's powers, does that make them Logia types? If you don't answer me, I won't let you go to the bathroom! You'll p**p in the woods. P.N. Joke Laugh

@Oda:

I will not poop in the woods. Gosh, you're so vulgar. Poop in the woods. Honestly. I get a lot of these questions, so let's make a chart so it's easy to understand.

I omitted the list because, let's be honest, no one here needs to know which fruits are what class - taken from the Arlong Park SBS section.

Can you tell, now? The Logia type, able to change their living body structure into the powers of nature, are extremely powerful within all the categories of powers.

.

Seriously, the main aspect is that they can, yes, become something, turn their body into something, and that something has to be a power of nature, for otherwise they wouldn't become anything anyways and not be a Logia because a Logia HAS to be a "force" of nature! That's Oda's goddamn concept for the fruits so why are you still arguing the opposite!

Also, you are trying to define logia as nature class fruits by saying its nature class. You cant define a word with itself.

Sure I can, simply because that's what it's supposed to be - bam. It's like saying, a table's a table, and a chair is a chair. As long as we have the same general idea and perception of what a table/chair usually is supposed to be, there's no problem and I can do it just fine without any problem's arising. And, for the record, I am not even doing that - I'm simply telling you that Logia's are fruits that make the user become a natural element. And that's that.

Thank you! People keep saying "element" as in it having to be some natural disastor or some property of the earth or universe. They fail to look at it from the point of it being one homogeneous body or element or force or whatever.

Erm, we don't fail to see that, it's just that the "element" part comes first which grants them to become a "homogeneous body or element or force or whatever". You got the order wrong, that's all there is to it.

[mcdreamy]

@Reyairia:

Not really, dragons in eastern mythology are known for controlling the weather.

I hope there's two dragon models; one for eastern and one for western.

Although Dragon having the dragon fruit is too obvious for One Piece.

Lol I don't think it's too obvious at all. Oda can be simple like that sometimes.

[themick]

@Juvar:

Nope, again, not any nature related fruit per se, but a nature related element that falls into this category as what Oda perceives to be a "force" of nature. Lost in translation. Anyways, moving on:

We will have to agree to disagree I guess.

@Juvar:

It's NOT about "being a part of nature", I've said that too many times already and it's seriously not that hard to get! Vibrations are a motion of particles, kinetic energy, they are not whatsoever an "element" or "force of nature" by themselves, there always has to be something creating those vibrations first! One of the major points. And again this was answered by Oda in an SBS and I'm actually going to find it for you now coz' I can't be bothered repeating myself any longer…

Dont start talking like that. Because sand is not a force and smoke is caused by fire so it shouldnt be an element or force of nature by itself because something else has to create it.

@Juvar:

And yeah, this again is only a translation, but you get the rough idea. I know you'll say now "oh but it says >he'd have to become an earthquake himself if he was a Logia< so that supports that to be a Logia you only have to become an element?!" and I'll answer yet again that this is simply what a Logia's ability is, not how it defines them - what is meant by this is that if he WAS a Logia you'd be able to SEE it because he WOULD turn into an earthquake himself. But it is THIS way, and not the other way around. Just like you can see that if someone in the OPverse turns into an animal, you know he's a Zoan. That doesn't classify it per se though, it's the ability that the fruit gives him. Voilà.

Then please once and for all give me a rock solid definition of logia.

@Juvar:

Seriously, the main aspect is that they can, yes, become something, turn their body into something, and that something has to be a power of nature, for otherwise they wouldn't become anything anyways and not be a Logia because a Logia HAS to be a "force" of nature! That's Oda's goddamn concept for the fruits so why are you still arguing the opposite!

What is a power of nature? Why are you so hung up on nature or force of nature refering to the earth or the environment? Why cant you think of nature as in what the person is? His nature has been changed. Any time someones nature is changed into a pure DF power they become a powerful force. Being able to become your power, create unlimited amounts of your power, and control the power you create outside of the boundaries of your own body is very powerful. Even if the power you gain is something lame like clouds, feces, oatmeal or whatever it is. Those may or may not be forces of nature but once you gain those powers you become a natural force.

@Juvar:

Sure I can, simply because that's what it's supposed to be - bam. It's like saying, a table's a table, and a chair is a chair. As long as we have the same general idea and perception of what a table/chair usually is supposed to be, there's no problem and I can do it just fine without any problem's arising. And, for the record, I am not even doing that - I'm simply telling you that Logia's are fruits that make the user become a natural element. And that's that.

No you cant because you are using your own preconcieved notions about what a chair or table are. If you were speaking with someone who spoke a different language those would be just words until you defined their meanings.

You say logia is a natural element yet dont define the meaning of natural element. Are all logia's natural elements? Are all natural elements logia's?

@Juvar:

Erm, we don't fail to see that, it's just that the "element" part comes first which grants them to become a "homogeneous body or element or force or whatever". You got the order wrong, that's all there is to it.

I dont get what you are trying to say. I say that if you can become, create, control you are classified as a logia regardless of being a force of nature or natural element. So if Mr3 or magellan could turn into wax or poison, respectivly, they would be logia. However it seems to me that you wouldnt say they are logia because wax and poision arent natural elements and forces of nature. Your thinking would imply that its possible for a paramecia fruit to be able to become, create, control which the manga has shown many times doesnt seem to be the case.

[Ryuksgelus]

@Refii:

• Light is measured in the amount of energy units it carries, that also determines the way we process what we see (colors).
  Atomic Photons are viewed as light or energy particles.
• Vibrations are the waste of stored potential energy, when it is released it is transformed and measured as kinetic energy.
• Electricity is a source of energy.
  Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted.

What are you proving here? You described in a very non informative way how light is viewed. Light are packets of photon packets that move in waves. Vibrations are a way energy can be released. Electricity actually has a vague definition in physics and is really more of a movement of particles like waves is a movement of particles but Eneru is specifically lightning.

There is nothing cliche about that.
There is something highly unscientific about considering a swamp a force of nature however

Copy and pasting tidbits of information from a website doesn't explain anything. Nobody was using science to define a swamp as a force of nature. He is a mud logia. Combination of two classical fantasy elements. You're putting too much emphasis on semantics again. Its a swamp logia in name only and you're too rigid in your view of what a force of nature is and the definition of a logia.

The absence of light (darkness) is not an element of nature, it is the absence of elements.
Swamps are not elements of nature.
Lava is not an element of nature.
Earthquakes are a force of nature.

Nothing is worse than when somebody says ridiculously stupid things with what I can only assume is a straight face.

Teach is a black hole man not an absence of light man….Kishishishi
Its two elements combined.
This is a earth(an element) in a different form.
It is not an element but a huge vibration or release of energy.

Whitebeard and Jozu are not a logia because they cannot become, create, control.
Smoker is a logia because he can create, become, control.

WB is not a logia because you cannot become a vibration. That is like becoming heat which is just sped up particles. You can speed up particles of matter to generate heat(like Flash and Sanji do) but you can't become it.

You may be right about Jozu but its arrogant to just state it as fact when we lack information. Logia produce elements from their bodies which Jozu has been shown to do. He can't effect things externally because diamonds do not have that property.

[IDC]

lava is natural volcanoes duh

[Juvar]

@themick:

We will have to agree to disagree I guess.

Well, if that were true, why still give more points to argue about?… I'll just give a last opinion, but I'm fine with that.

Dont start talking like that. Because sand is not a force and smoke is caused by fire so it shouldnt be an element or force of nature by itself because something else has to create it.

Well, I see your point, the only problem with this is just that, again, it's Oda's manga and his view of what is considered a force of nature - not ours. And if you ask me, I agree with you saying that smoke is not it's own element, sand though arguably is, because, well, it's earth. Sandstorms, deserts… all that comes to mind, and therefore I'd call sand a force of nature. It's not like a "sandstorm fruit" or "desert fruit" would make much sense, but it DOES make sense to make the "element" sand a fruit so that these powers can be used, and a Logia makes sense. But yeah I wouldn't count smoke either. However since it HAS already been asked and answered, I get the point about Whitebeard not being a Logia, and that's that.

Then please once and for all give me a rock solid definition of logia.

Sorry Bro can't do that, ask Oda. I wish we had one, I'm, like you, just going by all the evidence and statements we've had so far and building my opinion on what is presented to us.

What is a power of nature? Why are you so hung up on nature or force of nature refering to the earth or the environment? Why cant you think of nature as in what the person is? His nature has been changed. Any time someones nature is changed into a pure DF power they become a powerful force. Being able to become your power, create unlimited amounts of your power, and control the power you create outside of the boundaries of your own body is very powerful. Even if the power you gain is something lame like clouds, feces, oatmeal or whatever it is. Those may or may not be forces of nature but once you gain those powers you become a natural force.

Well but the point is that only natural elements have the power to "become, create, control", which brings us back to the starting point… :wassat: From all I see, Oda makes Logia's explicitly natural elements of some sort, following his own crazy classification of what fits and what doesn't. So far we haven't seen a single Logia that actually defies this classification, neither have we seen another fruit class that should be included in the classification - arguably Jozu's diamond fruit. But there are tons of arguments against all the others. Poison for example is organic, and so is wax - it does make sense to some degree. While the Logia's we have are natural elements that occur in nature such as lightning, fire and smoke, magma and ice, light and darkness, sand, swamp (or whatever it is)... things associated with raw, untouched nature, at least in it's basic form. Somewhat. Sorry if I'm not making sense but the point is that this exactly is the logic Oda is following here, maybe he hasn't thought too much about the exact classification - I doubt he has debates like we do in his mind. Let's leave it, I guess, and not the "i dunt wanna talk to u anymore cuz ur stoopid" but the more civilised "we're not actually getting anywhere"...

No you cant because you are using your own preconcieved notions about what a chair or table are. If you were speaking with someone who spoke a different language those would be just words until you defined their meanings.

You say logia is a natural element yet dont define the meaning of natural element. Are all logia's natural elements? Are all natural elements logia's?

Point taken… But we haven't really seen any contradictions in the story so far, so that's what I was basing this on.
And yeah, language is, sadly, always an issue when it comes to definitions, meanings and translation >.>

I dont get what you are trying to say. I say that if you can become, create, control you are classified as a logia regardless of being a force of nature or natural element. So if Mr3 or magellan could turn into wax or poison, respectivly, they would be logia. However it seems to me that you wouldnt say they are logia because wax and poision arent natural elements and forces of nature. Your thinking would imply that its possible for a paramecia fruit to be able to become, create, control which the manga has shown many times doesnt seem to be the case.

See above. It's exactly NOT regardless of being a force of nature/natural element. The point is that neither Mr 3 nor Magellan DOES become their respectful "element", since it doesn't follow Oda's perception of being a natural force/element. If he had a different opinion on this, they would be. This whole debate is more about understanding what Oda's classification actually is, not what it should be, because otherwise we're really not getting anywhere, just like the "FI can't be 300km in diameter for obvious reasons" debate (I hate to say it but he majorly screwed up there", but, it's a story, it's a manga.

My line of thinking does not at all imply what you think it does, it's the opposite. Simply because Paramecia's do never grant this ability to actually become and control a certain element. And do not grant powers over natural forces/elements.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@IDC:

lava is natural volcanoes duh

Could you please stop these completely useless and meaningless posts?… :wassat:

[IDC]

how is it meaningless

[Juvar]

@IDC:

how is it meaningless

Whatever, sorry mate I'm sleepy. If it makes you feel better, you are right, I just meant because it was so incredibly short and… wasn't contributing much since it has been said pretty much just above that sorry. Cookie?

[IDC]

your lucky i like cookies. jk

[themick]

@Juvar:

Well, if that were true, why still give more points to argue about?… I'll just give a last opinion, but I'm fine with that.

Well, I see your point, the only problem with this is just that, again, it's Oda's manga and his view of what is considered a force of nature - not ours. And if you ask me, I agree with you saying that smoke is not it's own element, sand though arguably is, because, well, it's earth. Sandstorms, deserts... all that comes to mind, and therefore I'd call sand a force of nature. It's not like a "sandstorm fruit" or "desert fruit" would make much sense, but it DOES make sense to make the "element" sand a fruit so that these powers can be used, and a Logia makes sense. But yeah I wouldn't count smoke either. However since it HAS already been asked and answered, I get the point about Whitebeard not being a Logia, and that's that.

Sorry Bro can't do that, ask Oda. I wish we had one, I'm, like you, just going by all the evidence and statements we've had so far and building my opinion on what is presented to us.

Well but the point is that only natural elements have the power to "become, create, control", which brings us back to the starting point... :wassat: From all I see, Oda makes Logia's explicitly natural elements of some sort, following his own crazy classification of what fits and what doesn't. So far we haven't seen a single Logia that actually defies this classification, neither have we seen another fruit class that should be included in the classification - arguably Jozu's diamond fruit. But there are tons of arguments against all the others. Poison for example is organic, and so is wax - it does make sense to some degree. While the Logia's we have are natural elements that occur in nature such as lightning, fire and smoke, magma and ice, light and darkness, sand, swamp (or whatever it is)... things associated with raw, untouched nature, at least in it's basic form. Somewhat. Sorry if I'm not making sense but the point is that this exactly is the logic Oda is following here, maybe he hasn't thought too much about the exact classification - I doubt he has debates like we do in his mind. Let's leave it, I guess, and not the "i dunt wanna talk to u anymore cuz ur stoopid" but the more civilised "we're not actually getting anywhere"...

Point taken... But we haven't really seen any contradictions in the story so far, so that's what I was basing this on.
And yeah, language is, sadly, always an issue when it comes to definitions, meanings and translation >.>

See above. It's exactly NOT regardless of being a force of nature/natural element. The point is that neither Mr 3 nor Magellan DOES become their respectful "element", since it doesn't follow Oda's perception of being a natural force/element. If he had a different opinion on this, they would be. This whole debate is more about understanding what Oda's classification actually is, not what it should be, because otherwise we're really not getting anywhere, just like the "FI can't be 300km in diameter for obvious reasons" debate (I hate to say it but he majorly screwed up there", but, it's a story, it's a manga.

My line of thinking does not at all imply what you think it does, it's the opposite. Simply because Paramecia's do never grant this ability to actually become and control a certain element. And do not grant powers over natural forces/elements.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Could you please stop these completely useless and meaningless posts?… :wassat:

I think we agree on most of this but there are tiny areas that may or may not ever be cleared up which would anwer our questions once and for all and for that we cant really get anywhere untill more info is brought to light.

I will however say that my thought process comes from the fact that Oda, on the whole, has been incredibly reliable and consisent when it comes to the info he provides and that most confusion is because of bad or mistaken translations. Yet on the topic of logia Oda seems to give contradictory information. His idea of force of nature seems broad and not uniform. Because of his consistency (overall), this makes me think that he can make a logia fruit out of anything he wants as long as it folllows the pattern of become, create, control. Because he is not a bad writer that would create crazy fruits as logia's and claim them as forces of nature or what not when no rational person would see them as one. Therefore, I hate it when people claim "its the authors story he can do what he wants".

TL;DR
Oda is a great writer
His logia elements are broad
To me it is this way because he wants to be able to create a logia out of anything if he wants/needs to.

[Refii]

Ryuksgelus, your pokemon logic is severely infuriating, but this argument can go nowhere, because you refuse to confront the blatant error of a natural element/force of nature based Logia system with a swamp fruit and lacking an earthquake fruit.

The notion that a human could not become a vibration man, in a universe where there exists a light man is crime against the scientific community, light = waves & vibrations = waves.
Go take some college courses and have this conversation with your professor. I'm not going to continue this circle-jerk argument when you're clearly viewing scientific theory with blinders on.

[Johnny B. Decent]

@Reyairia:

Although Dragon having the dragon fruit is too obvious for One Piece.

Like Smoker and Blackbeard having powers related to Smoke and Darkness?

Also, about the Gura Gura, while it's true Earthquakes are just as much of natural disasters like mudslides or wildfires, if it were a Logia, the whole thing about Whitebeard dying via gradual wounds would be nullified, as well as Blackbeard being able to avoid his Yami Yami's pain problem via a seismic energy or Teutonic plate body, as well as increasing it's power to a level people would probably complain about.

[Refii]

WB's fruit was a paramecia, for storytelling purposes, not because it was not a natural element/force of nature.

1. So that as you mentioned, he would be hurt.
2. So Blackbeard can have one of each type of fruit.

This argument is about what defines a logia, not justifying why Whitebeard was not one, we all (I hope) accept that WB was not and could not have been a logia.

[Johnny B. Decent]

Now that I think of it as we discuss the Logia = Natural Disasters thing, it does kind of exempt Kizaru and Blackbeard from that logic. Obviously, Blackbeard's powers are not the usual form of darkness as it's more of a black hole (which is a form of disaster, I admit), but I mean regular ol' Darkness is just the absence of light, and I also don't see too many giant lasers randomly firing in the world.

[Juvar]

@S.C.:

Now that I think of it as we discuss the Logia = Natural Disasters thing, it does kind of exempt Kizaru and Blackbeard from that logic. Obviously, Blackbeard's powers are not the usual form of darkness as it's more of a black hole (which is a form of disaster, I admit), but I mean regular ol' Darkness is just the absence of light, and I also don't see too many giant lasers randomly firing in the world.

Well we did have the light=scorching heat=drought point some pages back which is still valid.

[themick]

@Juvar:

Well we did have the light=scorching heat=drought point some pages back which is still valid.

Yea, but kizaru seems like lasers not heat. Especially since he hasnt shown to burn anyone with them. But yes i guess too much light can cause alot of heat, like planets close to a star.

But on earth deserts are caused by prevailing winds and mountain ranges. As is shown by having similiar lats or longs yet completely different climates.

And if kizaru is light=scorching heat=drought then what is the point of crocs sand fruit which is a desert drought or arid environment?

[Juvar]

@themick:

Yea, but kizaru seems like lasers not heat. Especially since he hasnt shown to burn anyone with them. But yes i guess too much light can cause alot of heat, like planets close to a star.

But on earth deserts are caused by prevailing winds and mountain ranges. As is shown by having similiar lats or longs yet completely different climates.

And if kizaru is light=scorching heat=drought then what is the point of crocs sand fruit which is a desert drought or arid environment?

I get the feeling you like to argue with me Ok, I guess you're right with the Croc-desert fruit etc. See below:

@themick:

I think we agree on most of this but there are tiny areas that may or may not ever be cleared up which would anwer our questions once and for all and for that we cant really get anywhere untill more info is brought to light.

I will however say that my thought process comes from the fact that Oda, on the whole, has been incredibly reliable and consisent when it comes to the info he provides and that most confusion is because of bad or mistaken translations. Yet on the topic of logia Oda seems to give contradictory information. His idea of force of nature seems broad and not uniform. Because of his consistency (overall), this makes me think that he can make a logia fruit out of anything he wants as long as it folllows the pattern of become, create, control. Because he is not a bad writer that would create crazy fruits as logia's and claim them as forces of nature or what not when no rational person would see them as one. Therefore, I hate it when people claim "its the authors story he can do what he wants".

TL;DR
Oda is a great writer
His logia elements are broad
To me it is this way because he wants to be able to create a logia out of anything if he wants/needs to.

Agreeing with the bolded, because yes, he applies his "force of nature" description somewhat loosely as to which fruits are considered Logia's and which aren't. But it's nothing like "he can do whatever he wants", because the concept exists and he holds true to it, at least as far as we've witnessed. I didn't try to claim this, hope you didn't read it that way.

I guess we're pretty much trying to say the same thing or extremely similar at the least, it's just that I still can't hear the "a Logia is all about become, create, control", when that's only how you can prove it's a Logia and it's the ability given to them… Because since there IS a concept (though vague) concerning natural elements, in a way, there wouldn't ever be something like a glass fruit that can do this and is a Logia. Glass would be Paramecia and just turn the body into (although that wouldn't be of much use I guess but it's just to prove a point....) glass.

Every fruit has a "theme", let's call it that for now, Rubber, magnetism, aging, some weird puppeteer thing, which are all Paramecia because, well, what else could it be? All animals are obviously Zoans, and "themes" like Smoke, Lava, Sand, Swamp, Ice, Light, Darkness become Logias, because they follow Oda's idea of a powerful element in nature, and since they exist as those, it makes somewhat sense that the person, to use these powers, can turn into these elements, and control the element they are now able to create. That is at least pretty consistent, while everything else is thrown into the Paramecia class, even when there are some things that would be debatable elements - diamonds, which I explain with how it's really too overpowered if Jozu could create diamonds and throw them like spears, pretty much destroying everything, poison - which, again, would be just too much for the point in the story for Luffy to handle, and also can be argued down as an element of nature - it does not exist outside of organisms naturally... and wax, which is, well, same thing really.

Point to be taken out of this is that many of these powers are classified as what they are because of storytelling. However there's still always at least one other point to consider, and so I guess this is just how Oda goes about the Logia classification - but again, it's not about "I will make this fruit to create, become, control", it's more about "I consider this as a force of nature, my concept, so it's a Logia", which THEN, since it's a Logia, grants the power to become an element and control/create it to an extent.

And we're really turning in circles on this one.

[themick]

@Juvar:

I get the feeling you like to argue with me Ok, I guess you're right with the Croc-desert fruit etc. See below:

Agreeing with the bolded, because yes, he applies his "force of nature" description somewhat loosely as to which fruits are considered Logia's and which aren't. But it's nothing like "he can do whatever he wants", because the concept exists and he holds true to it, at least as far as we've witnessed. I didn't try to claim this, hope you didn't read it that way.

I guess we're pretty much trying to say the same thing or extremely similar at the least, it's just that I still can't hear the "a Logia is all about become, create, control", when that's only how you can prove it's a Logia and it's the ability given to them… Because since there IS a concept (though vague) concerning natural elements, in a way, there wouldn't ever be something like a glass fruit that can do this and is a Logia. Glass would be Paramecia and just turn the body into (although that wouldn't be of much use I guess but it's just to prove a point....) glass.

Every fruit has a "theme", let's call it that for now, Rubber, magnetism, aging, some weird puppeteer thing, which are all Paramecia because, well, what else could it be? All animals are obviously Zoans, and "themes" like Smoke, Lava, Sand, Swamp, Ice, Light, Darkness become Logias, because they follow Oda's idea of a powerful element in nature, and since they exist as those, it makes somewhat sense that the person, to use these powers, can turn into these elements, and control the element they are now able to create. That is at least pretty consistent, while everything else is thrown into the Paramecia class, even when there are some things that would be debatable elements - diamonds, which I explain with how it's really too overpowered if Jozu could create diamonds and throw them like spears, pretty much destroying everything, poison - which, again, would be just too much for the point in the story for Luffy to handle, and also can be argued down as an element of nature - it does not exist outside of organisms naturally... and wax, which is, well, same thing really.

Point to be taken out of this is that many of these powers are classified as what they are because of storytelling. However there's still always at least one other point to consider, and so I guess this is just how Oda goes about the Logia classification - but again, it's not about "I will make this fruit to create, become, control", it's more about "I consider this as a force of nature, my concept, so it's a Logia", which THEN, since it's a Logia, grants the power to become an element and control/create it to an extent.

And we're really turning in circles on this one.

Hahah i just like having spirited debates that dont devolve into flaming or who is stronger or who will be next nakama or who will hook up with who. I like talking OP with people who think their opinions through then explain why they feel that way, even if they are wrong or misinformed (not saying that you are in this case).

I guess what we are not connnecting on is the term logia. To me that is just a classification. It imparts no powers or special abilities its just a name, purely descriptive.

You say Oda considers it a force so therefore its a logia and because its a logia it grants the become, control, create. I say this is a logical fallacy. Just because Oda considers something a force doesnt mean it has to be a logia. Also, just because it is a logia doesnt mean it can become, create, control.

If what you say is true "Oda considers it a force of nature, therefore its a logia, therefore its granted become, create, control" and that is the whole point of the DF class(logia) then no other DF class(paramecia and zoan) should be able to become, create, control (after all what would be the point of a paramecia that could become, create, control but have oda say its not a force of nature so its paramecia even though it has all the powers of a logia. Also, this is why it was pointed out to us that BBs fruit is special). If that is the case then any fruit that can become, create, control could only be a logia and thereby a force to Oda. So it would be perfectly ok to do as I suggest and say that logia are defined by become, create, control.

I hope you see what Im saying not sure if I made it perfectly clear or not.