Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes

[Nilitch]

@benjamminbrown:

On the contrary, I think that Luffy had every reason to think that Zoro was good after seeing how he behaved while being tied up to die of starvation. Even in such a perilous state, Zoro held true to his ideals and was extremely kind to the good people while staying strong in his opposition to douchebaggery.

Luffy's had plenty of experience with people being misjudged as devils over some perceived character flaw… one of his blood brothers was ostracized just for being the son of the greatest outlaw in history. Luckily, Luffy is an extremely good judge of character and can tell the difference between a cold blooded killer and someone who is really just an ally of justice.

This is chapter 2 before Luffy met Zoro http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/2/23
He is saying "if he's a good guy I'd ask him to join in" but he had no reason at all to believe Zoro would be a good guy. This is what I'm saying, not that he had no reason to believe he was good after the Helmeppo episode.

Anyway, it had seemed very odd to me that Luffy was going to take such a person in his crew when I was reading this –8years ago! (how do I even remember this??) And even after that, Zoro still looked kinda evil to me for a chapter or two. Although, I don't know if it makes Oda's depiction from the point of view of the people good (this point of view being applied to us readers) or if it was just Luffy going for recruiting someone kinda evil in his crew.

Let's come back to Kilua though, and yes they ain't the same. The scale is kind of different...
But overall as I said multiple times, I believe HxH turned into something totally different after Kite lost his arm. And only then, Togashi chose to give a moral to Kilua by pulling this needle in the face outta nowhere. "oh shit, I had a needle on the face, dam. It's time for instant character development" (I'm surprised btw Robby didn't mention this)

[FireFistAce 0]

The difference between Killua and the rest of his family (sans MAYBE Alluka and his grandfather) is that they're all sociopaths, Especially Illumi and his father. His father even had a maid essentially kill herself by proxy by ordering her to refuse any of Alluka's requests, simply so they could observe the results. Who does that kind of thing? The only reason Killua was an assassin was because that's all he knew growing up in an isolated compound, and the needle his brother stuck in his head. Had he been given a different life, he definitely wouldn't have chosen that career path.

[zeltrax225]

Luffy doesn't care if the world goes to chaos or if his actions to save a person chain reacts and destroy countries in process.
He's hopelessly selfish and he knows that.
To call him a good guy is delusional. He's not, he's free and because he is powerful he hardly cares about the consequences he has on the world.
We have Blackbeard as his anti thesis and that is actually how I picture luffy turning if he was not blessed with such innate fighting talent.
The same goes for Gon. I won't invalid his character by labelling him young and inexperienced by Chimera arc.
He is willing to blackmail and hurt an innocent without batting an eye, not exactly a saint either.

[maxterdexter]

The thing is that oda has never put luffy in the situation where he has to kidnap an innocent to get his way, and when he decides to use lethal force on an enemy (the big mom plan) or team up with a psycho that hasn't hurt him directly (Capone) they ignore it or rebel against it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

And oda also failed to make luffy face the consequences of the impel down breakout, or the whole 'I'm not a hero' of fishman island where luffy just went and became a hero after saying it.

[Nilitch]

I'm not a hero was just a gag though. It was because he didn't wanna share his meat with people.

And when did Gon kidnap someone?

[maxterdexter]

Komugi I guess. He was about to deny her life saving medical care, that's close enough.

[Nilitch]

yeah, he was mad –--because Pitoh was saving a total stranger but in the meantime killing innocent people.

It's not even remotely close to call him bad because of that. Many people --including me-- would have had the same reaction.

[maxterdexter]

And I wouldn't take the "I want all the meat" just as a joke. That is luffy saying that his actions are selfish from his point of view, that everything that he has done has been from a selfish point of view. Sure, when its his friends its selfless, but he still frames it for himself. "My navigator" "my cremate" "my chef" "I won't save you until you want it", etc.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I'm not talking about his mind state but his actions, he was ready to deny a dying girl medical attention for his own reasons. Angry, mad, whatever. I'm talking selfish here.

[zeltrax225]

@Nilitch:

yeah, he was mad –--because Pitoh was saving a total stranger but in the meantime killing innocent people.

It's not even remotely close to call him bad because of that. Many people --including me-- would have had the same reaction.

Uh no.
Regardless of the circumstances, he was blackmailing Pitou. It would have been less severe if it was over something like money or power but in this case it was a human life. Komugi's life was the stake he used. It was a chip in his bargain and in that moment, he clearly couldn't care less about her.

Even if let's say he blackmailed Pitou under the pretext that Komugi is working with an ant, thus an "enemy" which would mean her life meant less to Gon so it is therefore acceptable. You'll then be forgetting that he was ready to kill an injured harmless woman, even if she was an enemy, if he could get his goal.

What he did however was a defining trait of a hunter and is a plus to his career.
It's also what merciless or cornered soldiers do in war in order to survive.

Let's also not forget him roping Killua to his potential death and constantly pushing all that thirst for vengeance onto his best friend.

[maxterdexter]

Let's imagine it wasn't pitou who gon faced down but a generic doctor. How different would he have acted?

[zeltrax225]

@maxterdexter:

The thing is that oda has never put luffy in the situation where he has to kidnap an innocent to get his way, and when he decides to use lethal force on an enemy (the big mom plan) or team up with a psycho that hasn't hurt him directly (Capone) they ignore it or rebel against it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

And oda also failed to make luffy face the consequences of the impel down breakout, or the whole 'I'm not a hero' of fishman island where luffy just went and became a hero after saying it.

That's fitting the narrative right there. If you think through it you'll realize half of the straw hats actions have lasting consequences.
Sure, there are good but there are equal bads that comes along with it.
Luffy is selfish and constantly pushes his ideals down people's throats. He is also very observant when it comes to human nature and unknowingly uses that to his advantage.
The excellence of One Piece is Oda being able to acknowledge that fact and also that he is not the only one that is selfish and firm in his beliefs, tons of other characters are and might even be stronger in their resolve than him.

Unlike Naru Jesus whose childish world view is supposed to shape the entire world.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@maxterdexter:

Let's imagine it wasn't pitou who gon faced down but a generic doctor. How different would he have acted?

Then there's no point for this conversation.

[Nilitch]

The nitpicking on HxH is strong.

@maxterdexter:

Let's imagine it wasn't pitou who gon faced down but a generic doctor. How different would he have acted?

"Let's imagine it was a complete different situation, what then?"

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I'm not talking about his mind state but his actions, he was ready to deny a dying girl medical attention for his own reasons. Angry, mad, whatever. I'm talking selfish here.

What actions? He didn't do a thing.

[zeltrax225]

I'm not nitpicking on HxH.
I'm saying it's actually a good thing Gon blackmailed Pitou because it makes a lot more sense than him being smiley and giving a jesus speech.
That's one of my favourite moment and just because a protagonist is not heroic doesn't make the protagonist a bad one.

[maxterdexter]

That. I'm not saying that it was a bad moment, nor out of character. What I'm saying is that is a cool and disturbing moment and I'd wish that it was explored for that, not just brushed aside.

[Kaptayn]

@Robby:

"Building the character" only works as an excuse when the story is actually ongoing. If we'd had regular chapters since then and had another 200-250 chapters of material, that'd be completely legit! But we don't! So, just like "Gon is powerless" and "Killua is travelling with his sister now" it doesn't matter when for all intents and purposes, that's all we're getting for a decade, or maybe ever.

Pariston is at least IN the current arc, so we might get another chapter with him in it this year, but "setup" means nothing if there's never actual payoff. And similarly, payoff out of the blue without setup is cheap.

You can't have these giant breaks and still get all the bonuses from being a serialized format counting for the narrative. Each block need to stand on its own as a narrative if this is going to be the format indefinitely.

Okay, then all this is about is Togashi's pace.

[Nilitch]

@Robby:

The nuke and Alluka came out of nowhere

I was scrolling on reddit, and I've remembered that–-- Kurapika's eyes giving super-powers came out of nowhere too, because Togashi had made Uvoguin too powerful.

[Z0R0]

@Nilitch:

I was scrolling on reddit, and I've remembered that–-- Kurapika's eyes giving super-powers came out of nowhere too, because Togashi had made Uvoguin too powerful.

Wing explained how a specialist works early on.

Kuripika's eyes were a focal point since early on.

It really wasn't out of nowhere, at all.

[Nilitch]

@Z0R0:

Wing explained how a specialist works early on.

Kuripika's eyes were a focal point since early on.

It really wasn't out of nowhere, at all.

Kurapika's red eyes turning him into a specialist happened during the fight. Before that, his eyes were just some pretty items.

[pariston_hill]

@Nilitch:

Kurapika's red eyes turning him into a specialist happened during the fight. Before that, his eyes were just some pretty items.

No the action happened when he learned nen, we where the ones that only learned it during the fight.

[Nilitch]

@pariston_hill:

No the action happened when he learned nen, we where the ones that only learned it during the fight.

Are you intentionally missing the entire point ? Simply putted, his super-powers came out of nowhere. chapter 83 right at the end of the fight.

Robby said Alluka and the nuke came out of nowhere to deal with an impossible situation. I'm arguing that it happened in the Yorkshire arc too. That in the end, it's not something new. So, did he put himself into a corner ? or is it just that he doesn't "wanna" foreshadow ? Literally nothing suggested before this fight that his eyes could be useful somehow.

And this is Alluka in chapter 229, so she was a thing way before haxed chimera ants existed

[pariston_hill]

@Nilitch:

Are you intentionally missing the entire point ? Simply putted, his super-powers came out of nowhere. chapter 83 right at the end of the fight.

Robby said Alluka and the nuke came out of nowhere to deal with an impossible situation. I'm arguing that it happened in the Yorkshire arc too. That in the end, it's not something new. So, did he put himself into a corner ? or is it just that he doesn't "wanna" foreshadow ? Literally nothing suggested before this fight that his eyes could be useful somehow.

And this is Alluka in chapter 229, so she was a thing way before haxed chimera ants existed

The point I'm trying to say is that with out Emperor Time, the likability that Kurapika would get success facing the troupe would be very low. We would have a guy that literally leaned nen a few months ago versus a group of thieves that honed their abilities for years, with out the restrictions and emperor time Yorknew would have ended with Kurapika dying in the hands of Uvo. We could say, that Togashi should have hinted that Kurapika's tribe was "different" from others, but i don't thing this enters the same category of Alluka's bypass by Killua.

[Desperado]

Not to forget that Kurapica was a proficient fighter to begin with. He was able to keep up with Hisoka during the hunter exam in a non-nen fight. So having him defeat Uvo compares to a power multiplication somewhat in the single digit range. Gon gaining power comparable to the king and Alluka casually undoing the fallout of this transformation compares to multiplicators in the 100 or more range.

[Robby]

Kurapika's eye power up was still early enough in the series, and so intrinsically tied to the character, and revealed so soon after his nen and before he'd shown all his abilities, (he in fact STILL hasn't shown everything that the chain can do) that it worked as character and worldbuilding. That was a situation where we the readers were learning nen types still, and Togashi could have easily given him the exact set he needed anyway. That he gave him a different set was something we didn't really even know was an issue until the fight.

Kurapika picked out a single spider and seperated him and showcased what he could do… and then that power was super pertinent for the rest of the arc. He won a 1v1 fight against a simple bruiser, and then used strategies and teamwork the rest of the arc. It was the FIRST thing he did, it was the demonstration. That was basically the START of the arc, not the resolution. It was not used to "get him out of an impossible corner" nor was that one enemy completely insurmountable... but as the starting showcase to set up for the badguys what a problem he was. Plus it let Kurapika sew confusion about what his actual power set was.

Now, if Kurapika had used traps and strategies and teamwork to whittle the spiders one by one, and made it clear he only had the one power set and he improvised despite the weakness, and we spent 100 chapters fighting Spiders with him only using one power... and then he got to fight Chrollo as the fifth spider he met and THEN he unveiled the red eyes power up for the first time? THAT would be a cheap cop out and unfair narrative.
Or if Kurapika started murdering gangsters with his chain and said "Yeah, I just pretend they're spiders for a couple seconds and then I can kill anyone" that would be a cheap cop out too. If, the next time he met a Spider, he just looked at the guy and he exploded because he added explosive eye beams to his power list, that would be cheap.

His power is very clearly defined, with very clear limits and a specific use, and has been set up in advance. The red eyes weren't a cop out for his powers, they were the setup.

And this is Alluka in chapter 229, so she was a thing way before haxed chimera ants existed

Uhm… Alluka existing as a member of the family isn't the asspull.

Alluka having magic powers that can do literally anything you can ask, EXCEPT for Killua who gets wishes for free, is.

And, as overpowered and ridiculous as it was? When it HAD that extreme cost associated and it was possible thousands or even millions of people would die to cure Gon, that worked, there was risk and danger involved. But once it was for free because Killua? Not so much.

[sandman]

Cover page for new volume is out:wub:

source:

[Zack]

Yay! Team Chrollo won!

[zeltrax225]

THAT'S A GOOD COVER

[KageKageKing]

Hisoka's ass is kinda big.

[Sheep]

As it should be.
Seriously though, that's a good cover, better than volume 33, which is Kurapika with a dolphin for some reason

[KageKageKing]

So all the chapters from the previous batch were never compiled into a volume until now? Weird.

[Black Leg]

@KageKageKing:

So all the chapters from the previous batch were never compiled into a volume until now? Weird.

Pretty much the sad standard with HunterxHunter right now. The last volume took 2 years to come out

[ScotchInformer]

Here is Clearer

[Nilitch]

Well, Hisoka didn't skip ass-day.

So, the whole volume will be Hisoka vs Chrollo… and at the end people will found out it was a pointless fight plotwise.... Sounds like the DavyBackFight.

@Black:

Pretty much the sad standard with HunterxHunter right now. The last volume took 2 years to come out

Why actually? Considering it takes a few weeks/months for a OnePiece volume.

@Robby:

Kurapika's eye power up was still early enough in the series, and so intrinsically tied to the character, and revealed so soon after his nen and before he'd shown all his abilities, (he in fact STILL hasn't shown everything that the chain can do) that it worked as character and worldbuilding. That was a situation where we the readers were learning nen types still, and Togashi could have easily given him the exact set he needed anyway. That he gave him a different set was something we didn't really even know was an issue until the fight.

Kurapika picked out a single spider and seperated him and showcased what he could do… and then that power was super pertinent for the rest of the arc. He won a 1v1 fight against a simple bruiser, and then used strategies and teamwork the rest of the arc. It was the FIRST thing he did, it was the demonstration. That was basically the START of the arc, not the resolution. It was not used to "get him out of an impossible corner" nor was that one enemy completely insurmountable... but as the starting showcase to set up for the badguys what a problem he was. Plus it let Kurapika sew confusion about what his actual power set was.

Now, if Kurapika had used traps and strategies and teamwork to whittle the spiders one by one, and made it clear he only had the one power set and he improvised despite the weakness, and we spent 100 chapters fighting Spiders with him only using one power... and then he got to fight Chrollo as the fifth spider he met and THEN he unveiled the red eyes power up for the first time? THAT would be a cheap cop out and unfair narrative.
If, the next time he met a Spider, he just looked at the guy and he exploded because he added explosive eye beams to his power list, that would be cheap.

His power is very clearly defined, with very clear limits and a specific use, and has been set up in advance. The red eyes weren't a cop out for his powers, they were the setup.

Uhm... Alluka existing as a member of the family isn't the asspull.

Alluka having magic powers that can do literally anything you can ask, EXCEPT for Killua who gets wishes for free, is.

And, as overpowered and ridiculous as it was? When it HAD that extreme cost associated and it was possible thousands or even millions of people would die to cure Gon, that worked, there was risk and danger involved. But once it was for free because Killua? Not so much.

The impossible situation was Uvoguin. The guy was too strong and so were the other Spiders. He one-shot a ShadowBeast with a punch that looked more like an explosion, he killed one by eating his brain, another one by spitting a piece of skull on his face and the last one by yelling. It doesn't really matter if it didn't happen at the end of the arc.
At least we knew since the beginning in Naruto that the eyes weren't useless, but Kurapika's 100% control over all the hatsu types suddenly happened at the end of the fight. I had this "out of nowhere" feeling I had with Alluka, Kite and the nuke tbh.

But okay, let's agree it's not the same thing. After all, the new chapter comes in two days and I don't wanna over-think things that are no relevant anymore.

but, while we're at it, "restriction and pledge" still confuses me. Anyone could be killed by any fodder thanks to that shit. "ok so, give me an invisible armor and super-speed, I'll use it to kill Netero and him only, if I use it on anyone else I die and also whatever happens I die in 7days"

And of course, it prevents Kurapika from being any stronger and having any relevance fight-wise anymore. Well, there is the fifth chain that he still didn't use though…

Or if Kurapika started murdering gangsters with his chain and said "Yeah, I just pretend they're spiders for a couple seconds and then I can kill anyone" that would be a cheap cop out too.

Actually, he could do that tbh. Since Chrollo kind of did it during his fight against Hisoka. I don't remember which technique it was, but he'd said something like "Rules say I can't use that on humans, but I consider humans objects so I can".

[pariston_hill]

@Nilitch:

Actually, he could do that tbh. Since Chrollo kind of did it during his fight against Hisoka. I don't remember which technique it was, but he'd said something like "Rules say I can't use that on humans, but I consider humans objects so I can".

No he didn't, he stated that HE doesn't consider human begins as more than puppets but he still used Kortopi's ability to make new puppets for the stamp.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

And while were at it, I always understood that Emperor Time as skip training ability, his 100% is how far mastery a conjurer could achieve in the other categories and not a 100% in enhancement as a natural born enhancer could achieve.

[Cyclone_Baroness]

I like that cover. It reminds me of Final Fantasy art.

[Sheep]

@Nilitch:

So, the whole volume will be Hisoka vs Chrollo… and at the end people will found out it was a pointless fight plotwise....

Exactly, except for Hisoka deciding to murder the whole troupe and killing two of them right away, same troupe that will be involved in the coming arc.
Other than that, just some minor thing.

but, while we're at it, "restriction and pledge" still confuses me. Anyone could be killed by any fodder thanks to that shit. "ok so, give me an invisible armor and super-speed, I'll use it to kill Netero and him only, if I use it on anyone else I die and also whatever happens I die in 7days"

It's not complicated at all. A pledge comes from a place of pure devotion and even sacrifice. It's not something a random mook will resort to just because.
Kurapika's chain jail works so well on the troupe because they are pretty much the reason he became a hunter to begin with, gon-san happened because some mutant killed his foster father, anger mixed with extreme guilt. I mean, there's nothing that holds a nen user back from making a pledge, but they aren't going to sacrifice their life because they really, really need to beat that guy they don't care about and have no history with, basic human psychology really.

[Kaptayn]

@Nilitch:

So, the whole volume will be Hisoka vs Chrollo… and at the end people will found out it was a pointless fight plotwise.... Sounds like the DavyBackFight.

Neither of those fights were pointless: Hisoka v. Chrollo set a new plot, the Hisoka v. Phantom Troupe plot, and Davy Back Fight allowed to introduce admiral Aokiji while serving as a "break" between two very intense arcs.
Generally, when an author does something, he knows very well what purpose the thing serves.

The cover is nice.

[Nobodyman]

@Kaptayn:

Generally, when an author does something, he knows very well what purpose the thing serves.

Unless it's Kishi or Kubo

[Kaptayn]

@Nobodyman:

Unless it's Kishi or Kubo

I couldn't say; I stopped reading Naruto after the Pain arc and never tried Bleach… :ninja:

[Nilitch]

@Kaptayn:

Neither of those fights were pointless: Hisoka v. Chrollo set a new plot, the Hisoka v. Phantom Troupe plot, and Davy Back Fight allowed to introduce admiral Aokiji while serving as a "break" between two very intense arcs.
Generally, when an author does something, he knows very well what purpose the thing serves.

It always sounds a bit pathetic when people defend the legitimacy of the Davy Back Fight arc with
-"Aokiji came at the end" (like it had anything to do with the games they played against Foxy in the first place)
-"we needed a break between 2big arcs so Oda did something completely unrelated to the plot, instead of doing anything else ". What break did we have between FI and PH ? PH and Dressrossa? oh yeah, none. Same goes for WaterSeven/Enies Lobby and Thriller Bark, there was no "break". Actually I don't remember having any break between two arcs except Zou, and maybe Jaya (even though it was more like a nice introduction to Skypea).
-Or, "it was foreshadowing Robin's "kidnaping" ", like we needed that. Literally no one would have complained if Robin's kidnapping was not "foreshadowed", and that's because it was useless.

And the Davy Back Fight was portrayed by Sanji and Robin like a very famous thing like "know your classics newbies", except that we've never heard about any of it before or after this arc.

If Hisoka vs Chrollo is a setup, it's a retarded one. "Hisoka's feelings were hurt so he decided to fight Chrollo again (and eventually his fodder friends that he will one-shot)" is not a setup.

[pariston_hill]

@Nilitch:

If Hisoka vs Chrollo is a setup, it's a retarded one. "Hisoka's feelings were hurt so he decided to fight Chrollo again (and eventually his fodder friends that he will one-shot)" is not a setup.

I don't think it was a "setup" for anything in particular but more of a Hisoka is a more versatile character to the story than Kuroro. And I find a bit annoying to downplay Hisoka's reasoning to "muh butthurt" when we now for a very long time that he: 1)lives to fight and defeat strong foes 2) infiltrated a infamous criminal organization of thieves and murders in order to fight their boss 3) was given a taste of what a fight against said boss on his conditions was lived and decided to call payback on the boss and his cronies. I mean if that is not the most Hisoka thing for Hisoka to do I don't know what you expect of the character. But as you said, you don't like him, so maybe you expected him to stay dead…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robby]

Uvogin was NOT an impossible to overcome obstacle. He was astrong brute, but that was it. He was isolated and then used as a showcase of what Kurapika could do. At a time when we still had no idea what Kurapika's nen training had actually done.

And again, that was basically the start of the arc, not the end. Context makes all the difference in when a reveal happens.

If Killua had made a wish on Alluka and 10,000 people had died for that as promised, fair enough. But, "Killua gets wishes for free!" is where the problem is.

@Nilitch:

It always sounds a bit pathetic when people defend the legitimacy of the Davy Back Fight arc with
-"Aokiji came at the end" (like it had anything to do with the games they played against Foxy in the first place)
-"we needed a break between 2big arcs so Oda did something completely unrelated to the plot, instead of doing anything else ".

How about the fact that Davy Back was fun? And showed a little bit more of the world and the pirate code?

What break did we have between FI and PH ?

Fishman Island WAS the break. It was relatively short (less than a year) and while there were some serious bits in it, it was mostly an arc where the stakes and enemies weren't that tough for the strawhats, as they consistently one-shotted their enemies the entire time, right before leading into the three year non-stop story of Punk Hazard and Dresserossa, which yes, since it had the same sidecharacters and villains, is one big arc.

Same goes for WaterSeven/Enies Lobby and Thriller Bark, there was no "break".

Same deal. Thriller Bark WAS the break. It was less than a year, most of the villains were goofy. We had Sanji in a midget dog body! There were some stakes but it was a short quickie before leading to seperation and war that would take three years. (And also, Sabondy and Amazon Lily were both super short 10 chapter deals. Davy Back was 20 chapters! SO three shortish arcs before the big one.)

You can't just judge a short breather arc by chapter count. You have to also include what the tone of it is, what the stakes are, and how long it is compared to the stories around it.

If Thriller Bark had been in East Blue, it would have been a huge arc. Syrup Village was 20 chapters and Baratie was 27, so Thriller Bark being 48 chapters would be insane! But coming later in the series as it did, where 3 years and 150 chapters have become the norm for the big stories? It's a short breather arc. Context.

And the Davy Back Fight was portrayed by Sanji and Robin like a very famous thing like "know your classics newbies", except that we've never heard about any of it before or after this arc.

As readers we're constantly finding out things that are common knowledge. We didn't know about the warlords or the emporers until were told. We didn't know Garp was Luffy's grandfather. We didnt know Luffy had two brothers. We didn't know about the supernovas. etc. And in contrast, the first five strawhats knew all about Laboon, and Robin had heard rumors, but that was news to Chopper and Franky.

It's WORLD BUILDING and exploring and discovering more of the world.

[Kaptayn]

@Nilitch:

It always sounds a bit pathetic when people defend the legitimacy of the Davy Back Fight arc with
-"Aokiji came at the end" (like it had anything to do with the games they played against Foxy in the first place)

It was the closure of the game, thus I consider it being part of the game, just like I consider Hisoka's survival and the explanation of nen becoming stronger after death as part of his fight, in its large definition.

@Nilitch:

-"we needed a break between 2big arcs so Oda did something completely unrelated to the plot, instead of doing anything else ". What break did we have between FI and PH ? PH and Dressrossa? oh yeah, none. Same goes for WaterSeven/Enies Lobby and Thriller Bark, there was no "break". Actually I don't remember having any break between two arcs except Zou, and maybe Jaya (even though it was more like a nice introduction to Skypea).

No need to repeat what has been said, so I'm focusing on what is in bold. What is the "plot"? If we're rigorous, the plot is strictly about Luffy finding One Piece. So… would you say Thriller Bark is unrelated to the plot? Because if we're following your reasoning, the only parts when OP focuses on the plot is when Luffy and his crew discover something that is directly linked to the One Piece (poneglyph).
Davy Back Fight is part of the plot, just like everything else. That's how stories are formed: a main "line", a main goal, with lots of detours that widen the universe, develop characters, etc.

@Nilitch:

-Or, "it was foreshadowing Robin's "kidnaping" ", like we needed that. Literally no one would have complained if Robin's kidnapping was not "foreshadowed", and that's because it was useless.

It wasn't foreshadowing Robin's kidnapping. Rather, it was hinting us that Robin could cause trouble in the future. The "kidnapping" could not have been deduced at the time.

@Nilitch:

And the Davy Back Fight was portrayed by Sanji and Robin like a very famous thing like "know your classics newbies", except that we've never heard about any of it before or after this arc.

Oh, so that's a problem too? There are a lot of problems in this story!
I honestly think that there was no better time to introduce the Davy Back Fight than during the Davy Back Fight, just like Doflamingo's coliseum was introduced on Dressrosa, even though it's quite of a big thing that we could have had heard before.

I think that the real problem is that you didn't like Davy Back Fight. That's a matter of opinion; I liked it, especially that Zoro/Sanji duo fight. But you can't say the arc was useless.

We've drifted off-topic, though.

@Nilitch:

If Hisoka vs Chrollo is a setup, it's a retarded one.

From useless to retarded, you sure have your way with words!

@Nilitch:

"Hisoka's feelings were hurt so he decided to fight Chrollo again (and eventually his fodder friends that he will one-shot)" is not a setup.

Now you're either trolling or trying to make this discussion awful on purpose. Well, at least you admitted that Hisoka v. Chrollo was a setup for something useful, aka useful.

@Robby:

If Killua had made a wish on Alluka and 10,000 people had died for that as promised, fair enough. But, "Killua gets wishes for free!" is where the problem is.

This could have been interesting; Kirua choosing to sacrifice the life of a considerate amount of people for his friend, then leaving with Alluka out of guilt (so that such tragedy never happens again/because he felt ashamed in front of Gon). It would have also made the whole Killua pursuit more meaningful.
But in the end, it doesn't matter much, and at least we're sure Alluka won't be a dangerous potential anymore.

@pariston_hill:

so maybe you expected him to stay dead…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know this isn't for me but I would have liked him to die right there. The guy is deranged, dangerous AND killed my man Sharnalk.

@KageKageKing:

Hisoka's ass is kinda big.

boiii is thiccccc

[desa]

@pariston_hill:

I mean if that is not the most Hisoka thing for Hisoka to do I don't know what you expect of the character.

He could chase Ging or Illumi or wathever other interesting fighter he knows.

[pariston_hill]

@desa:

He could chase ging or Illumi or wathever other interesting fighter he knows.

Agreed, but went for such a long way to fight Kuroro and be denied the pleasure o breaking him that he couldn't resist another try. And by plot convenience he and Kuroro will end in the boat with all sorts of important players.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[desa]

@pariston_hill:

Agreed, but went for such a long way to fight Kuroro and be denied the pleasure o breaking him that he couldn't resist another try. And by plot convenience he and Kuroro will end in the boat with all sorts of important players.

The whole continue chasing Chrollo (but this time with moooore spiders) seems gimmicky and petty to me but that's my opinion.

I'm merely showing they were other ways to go. If it is about the boat he could just have easily want someone else on the boat.

[pariston_hill]

@desa:

The whole continue chasing Chrollo (but this time with moooore spiders) seems gimmicky and petty to me but that's my opinion.

I'm merely showing they were other ways to go. If it is about the boat he could just have easily want someone else on the boat.

Understood your point, but he didn't seem very thrilled with the Zodiacs he actually met and evaluated, and Illumi is probably to busy chasing Killua to hang out with him. Is a bit pushy but in a way that feels natural imo.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[desa]

@pariston_hill:

Understood your point, but he didn't seem very thrilled with the Zodiacs he actually met and evaluated, and Illumi is probably to busy chasing Killua to hang out with him. Is a bit pushy but in a way that feels natural imo.

Considering how he chased Chrollo I doubt he give a damn if his target is into it or not. Although maybe he doesn't want to kill his only friends. I always wonder how they manage to not kill each other the first time they met and get to talking.

Considering his box metaphor it would weird if he is out of options. He has Illumi whole family or Laser(dude from the island) or Beyond Netero. I have a hard time seeing Hisoka that petty or focused in one target ( a chase that cost him Netero or ant king already). The ending of the fight seem like the other going "You think it was cool when he was trying to kill one spider? Well this time he will be trying to kill aaall the spiders." A gimmick just for the sake of it.

[Nilitch]

@pariston_hill:

I don't think it was a "setup" for anything in particular but more of a Hisoka is a more versatile character to the story than Kuroro. And I find a bit annoying to downplay Hisoka's reasoning to "muh butthurt" when we now for a very long time that he: 1)lives to fight and defeat strong foes 2) infiltrated a infamous criminal organization of thieves and murders in order to fight their boss 3) was given a taste of what a fight against said boss on his conditions was lived and decided to call payback on the boss and his cronies. I mean if that is not the most Hisoka thing for Hisoka to do I don't know what you expect of the character.

But as you said, you don't like him, so maybe you expected him to stay dead…

I'd expected the fight not to be a fan-service moment. Everyone had the "outta nowhere" feeling since the beginning. And it ended with no repercussion whatsoever. We could remove this part from the manga and pretend that Chrollo just ended up in the ship for the dark continent while playing "hide and seek" with Hisoka.

And exactly, he wants to fight strong opponents but suddenly goes "let's kill the Troupe" for nothing but butthurt reasons. It's "fine" if he just wanna fight Chrollo again. But why the Troupe? What was the whole point of Yorkshin? It was "I can't fight Chrollo because the Troupe is there" but now we go "okay the Troupe isn't a problem, I could kill them all lol, and I didn't do it in Yorkshin or before because…. uhh, why didn't I? "
Plus, he has no way at all to find the location of the Spiders. Which was another reason as to why the fight against Chrollo couldn't happen before Yorkshin. I'm expecting a very ass-pulled way to put Hisoka in the ship tbh.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

I'm putting some spoiler tags because my post takes too much place and it goes a bit off-topic with OnePiece.

! @Robby:
! > How about the fact that Davy Back was fun? And showed a little bit more of the world and the pirate code?
! It was fine. But every arcs in OnePiece are connected to each other and each have a repercussion or a meaning. The DavyBackFight didn't have any of that.
"Let's pull Aokiji at the very end" doesn't justify the games and Foxy.
I have nothing against the "break" thing tbh (I mean, as a concept, and not as an argument to defend Foxy's arc), but Oda could have done anything else but Foxy. At least something related to the plot/other arcs/events, or to anything. Foxy will never appear again. Even for a mini-series, Oda wouldn't waste a panel for him.
It was probably Oda's "Togashi moment" when he said "fuck you editor, I'm doing what I want" since it's also the time when Gedatsu's mini-story had started. And I'm pretty sure that Gedatsu will never appear again, or at least it doesn't feel like it. (useless arc and useless mini-story happened at the same time)
! > Fishman Island WAS the break. It was an arc where the stakes and enemies weren't that tough for the strawhats,
! Yes, Oda used FI to hype the SHs. (For real, even Zoro trashed Hody for a moment.) But no, you're not calling 51chapters a break, or at least you can't compare it to the DavyBackFight that had zero relevance plotwise.
Also, there was some important flashbacks. Maybe the villains weren't that strong, but neither were they in PH/Dressrossa (except mother fucking Doflamingo).
! > Punk Hazard and Dresserossa, which yes, since it had the same sidecharacters and villains, is one big arc.
! okay, whatever
! > Same deal. Thriller Bark WAS the break. It was short and less than a year, most of the villains were goofy. We had Sanji in a midget dog body! There were some stakes but it was a short quickie before leading to seperation and war that would take three years.
! The stake was a shichibukai though. It was far from short (unless you take Dressrossa as a standard), and it lasted 13months btw.
You can't just start calling anything a break to defend Foxy's arc.
! But yeah okay, I guess Sabaody was a break.
! > As readers we're constantly finding out things that are common knowledge. We didn't know about the warlords or the emporers until were told. We didn't know Garp was Luffy's grandfather. We didnt know Luffy had two brothers. We didn't know about the supernovas. etc. And in contrast, the first five strawhats knew all about Laboon, and Robin had heard rumors, but that was news to Chopper and Franky.
! But the point is that the DavyBackFight could have not existed, it wouldn't have changed a thing. Not really that it appeared out of nowhere which was not really a problem in the end. When I say "never heard of it before, neither later" it's just another argument to the "useless to the plot" point. Actually, many people have pointed out the "useless" point in this thread.

P.S. I'm okay with your point about Kurapika's eyes, and Alluka and everything btw.

! @Kaptayn:
! > It was the closure of the game, thus I consider it being part of the game, just like I consider Hisoka's survival and the explanation of nen becoming stronger after death as part of his fight, in its large definition.
! Aokiji is totally unrelated to Foxy.
! > No need to repeat what has been said, so I'm focusing on what is in bold. What is the "plot"? If we're rigorous, the plot is strictly about Luffy finding One Piece. So… would you say Thriller Bark is unrelated to the plot? Because if we're following your reasoning, the only parts when OP focuses on the plot is when Luffy and his crew discover something that is directly linked to the One Piece (poneglyph).
Davy Back Fight is part of the plot, just like everything else. That's how stories are formed: a main "line", a main goal, with lots of detours that widen the universe, develop characters, etc.
! We could remove Foxy from the manga, it wouldn't change a thing. Foxy is not related to the world of OnePiece in any way. ThrillerBark had a shichibukai.
! > It wasn't foreshadowing Robin's kidnapping. Rather, it was hinting us that Robin could cause trouble in the future. The "kidnapping" could not have been deduced at the time.
! I meant people arguing that losing Chopper during the game foreshadowed Robin's "kidnapping" and what it felt like to lose a friend (lol btw, they "lost" him for like 30minutes or so).
But Aokiji's speech and anything related to that happens after Foxy. And again, Aokiji is totally unrelated to Foxy. I'm talking about Foxy here, and that anything else but Foxy (and his crew, and his game, and the dozens of chapter) could have been done.
! > I think that the real problem is that you didn't like Davy Back Fight. That's a matter of opinion; I liked it, especially that Zoro/Sanji duo fight. But you can't say the arc was useless.
! I liked it, what makes you think I didn't ?

From useless to retarded, you sure have your way with words!

It's useless because it didn't change a thing. It's a retarded setup because Hisoka starts hunting the Troupe for no reason. At least "hey I ain't finished with you Chrollo, I want my fight!" would have been more fine than "I'mma kill all the Troupe because… well just because."

Now you're either trolling or trying to make this discussion awful on purpose. Well, at least you admitted that Hisoka v. Chrollo was a setup for something useful, aka useful.

Why am I trolling? Because he killed 2 persons of the Troupe at once just after waking up? Well, they didn't have their hatsu I guess though… But I don't think his fights against the Troupe will be any harder than the one against Gotoh. The least they can do is gang up on him.

[pariston_hill]

@Nilitch:

I'd expected the fight not to be a fan-service moment. Everyone had the "outta nowhere" feeling since the beginning. And it ended with no repercussion whatsoever. We could remove this part from the manga and pretend that Chrollo just ended up in the ship for the dark continent while playing "hide and seek" with Hisoka.

And exactly, he wants to fight strong opponents but suddenly goes "let's kill the Troupe" for nothing but butthurt reasons. It's fine if he just wanna fight Chrollo again. But why the Troupe? What was the whole point of Yorkshin? It was "I can't fight Chrollo because the Troupe is there" but now we go "okay the Troupe isn't a problem, I could kill them all lol, and I didn't do it in Yorkshin or before because…. uhh, why didn't I? "
.

Yes, it was out of the blue, but probably was that way because the previous 9 exposition heavy chapters, and even going for something different it still ended with some heavy power explanation.

Hisoka still can't face the troupe in an all against one kind of deal, and he managed to one shot two of them when they where without hatsu and by surprise. Since I on mobile i can't link pages, but there's two that help me make my point: first is after the Dodgeball game, his exchange that he would enjoy being chased by Machi, and his toy box from the election arc, where among his preys are troupe members. He is interested in the troupe but his boner for Kuroro was stronger, now that Kuroro beat him using troupe member abilities he decided to go two birds one stone.

I will drag this no further, because it seems more like a matter of taste than some that can be proven. I made my argument and others make theirs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robby]

The series isn't over yet? How do you know the Davy Back will never be relevant again, or that we'll never see Foxy again? (I assume he's going to end up in Buggy's crew.) We've seen the flying Dutchman now, we have to get to Davy Jones proper sometime before the series ends. Skypeia was considered by many people to be useless filler until it wasn't and it's place in the bigger story was made clear.

This is Oda, he gets back to ALL his characters eventually. Including guys like Bellamy who we assumed were dead for 10 years.

ANd yes. An arc that is less than a year that falls inbetween several three year arcs, IS in fact a short breather arc by way of comparison. Context, man, context.

What would have been a huge arc at the start of the series is a quick breather later in the series.