You might say it was all just…a fassad to feign interest in such a topic? Nyeheheh?
Ok whatever...
You might say it was all just…a fassad to feign interest in such a topic? Nyeheheh?
Ok whatever...
I promise this post isn't about dysphoria
A small update on my current affairs concerning top surgery. I've had a consultation yesterday with a doc who've been treating transsexual patients for a long time now and was very sympathetic towards me. I've seen some of his works on a forum and he himself said that he had done many FTM chest reconstruction surgeries. As of now, he seems to be my safest bet. He even advised for having a joint hysterectomy-mastectomy surgery, which means I'd only need to get anesthetized once and get through the recovery period once. It's also cheaper that way, since I'd only have to pay for the surgery room once. The doc doing the hysterectomy (getting out the uterus) would use a so-called laparoscopic method, which means no scar and quicker recovery. Good thing that I have a sitting job, I'll be able to get back to work after two or three weeks~ This plan seems the most optimal now.
I promise this post isn't about dysphoriaA small update on my current affairs concerning top surgery. I've had a consultation yesterday with a doc who've been treating transsexual patients for a long time now and was very sympathetic towards me. I've seen some of his works on a forum and he himself said that he had done many FTM chest reconstruction surgeries. As of now, he seems to be my safest bet. He even advised for having a joint hysterectomy-mastectomy surgery, which means I'd only need to get anesthetized once and get through the recovery period once. It's also cheaper that way, since I'd only have to pay for the surgery room once. The doc doing the hysterectomy (getting out the uterus) would use a so-called laparoscopic method, which means no scar and quicker recovery. Good thing that I have a sitting job, I'll be able to get back to work after two or three weeks~ This plan seems the most optimal now.
Do they have surgery requirements for people over there?
Curious since I know that a lot of doctors here will not recommend you for surgery in any capacity until you've been in hormones or living full time for a significant amount of time.
Do they have surgery requirements for people over there?
Curious since I know that a lot of doctors here will not recommend you for surgery in any capacity until you've been in hormones or living full time for a significant amount of time.
The usual requirement was/is to have already gotten approval from the ministry of health about the legal name and gender change. Which, as I might have said earlier, requires papers from a psychologist, a psychiatrist and a urologist/gynecologist.
Hormone treatment is not required, as far as I know, for top surgery nor hysto, but they it's necessary for metoidio or phallo. I'm not sure about the MTF part though.
I've only read about RLE, and never really heard that it was a requirement for anything, although I can say that I'm living as a guy as far as circumstances allow. I have it easy in that regard, being FTM, I can get away with putting on men's clothes as much as I want (okay, maybe not a suit, but other than that, no one bats an eye).
The system is currently being reworked, so it all might change. It's interesting how I, at first, thought that surgeries and hormone treatment needed to precede legal name/gender change, but it's the other way around in Hungary.
I don't know if anyone had heard about this.
I'm posting it, to see your opinions on that.
If I'm not mistaken, the AI is more about gender that actual sexual orientation.
Sounds very bad anyways
With it only tested on white, cis people, I'm not really sure it means much at all. And anything with any margin of error should only be used for verification in the end anyways.
But I just don't get it. The end question is…who cares? I guess I don't understand why anyone would want to know if someone was gay, straight, or some other sexuality. I guess, reaching, the "but what if they aren't into me" from a dating perspective sort of makes sense, but then again to me it doesn't, because I find it's far more about the individual person than anything.
The article (or another one) suggests that Putin-like leaders could use it. And then it'd be dangerous.
It seems that with 5pictures the AI has an accuracy of 91%. It's not 100% but it is consequent, I'm not sure we can say this is psedo-science
It's obviously not pseudo-science, but the consequences are overblown. I don't know where Serra read that they were only white, but despite the large sample size the results of the study are still strictly linked to the U.S., and as such makes the AI behavior strictly consequential only to people within the U.S. area who happened to use a specific dating site. Then of course we wonder what the demographic for that site is, how they market for that demographic, how it accounts for cultural diversity, etc.
Of course, it's definitely an interesting study in terms of the implications it has, but assuming it means that robots/machines are going to be used for discrimination is the sort of "aaaah! technology is evil!" response that is how people get you to click on their article, since in terms of infrastructure there are much more easy and certain ways for people to spy into your life to find out your sexuality than investing money in AI facial recognition that may still be dangerously inaccurate.
The real danger in stuff like this to me is idiots marketing programs like these to sites like buzzfeed and facebook click-bait bullshit aiming it at kids, then you have teenagers and the like using this and being predisposed to either question their own or someone else's sexuality without actually allowing themselves or others the freedom to figure out who they are at their own pace.
While the findings have clear limits when it comes to gender and sexuality – people of color were not included in the study, and there was no consideration of transgender or bisexual people – the implications for artificial intelligence (AI) are vast and alarming.
Right here Noqanky.
And with the accuracy rate between 74 and 91%, That just doesn't feel high enough to rely on this. Nor sure I'd even want to…I'm just as concerned about people thinking they would be able to use it on themselves to find out their sexuality, and attempt to go for it even if it might be wrong.
@Serra:
Right here Noqanky.
And with the accuracy rate between 74 and 91%, That just doesn't feel high enough to rely on this. Nor sure I'd even want to…I'm just as concerned about people thinking they would be able to use it on themselves to find out their sexuality, and attempt to go for it even if it might be wrong.
Thanks, completely missed that line for some reason.
Very late reply to the subject, but oh well…
As someone who's currently a little bit unsure about his sexuality (more on that below), I'd rather I get to discover what makes my naughty parts going than have program do it. Another problem I have with this concept is, that it might make sense if we think about sexuality as strictly defined categories with little to no overlap, but as soon as we change to a more scale-like system, it starts getting much more complicated.
On the surface, we have hetero-, homo-, bi- and asexuality; these are the ones most commonly known by the majority of people. Even just adding pansexuality can cause confusion and lines getting muddied between two elements.
Furthermore, if we add the Kinsley-scale to all this, it becomes apparent that categorizing every person is not that simple let alone searching for outer telltale signs from which others can deduce such things.
So yeah, interesting article, but I wouldn't think it can or should go anywhere beyond this.
As for my own sexuality, well,
! it's been changing a lot (or rather my perception of it) lately. Even before I fully realized I was transgender, I was already beginning to be more open about me having attraction towards women (so by my thinking back then, I slowly became less exclusively heterosexual). It's important to note here that I've never had a relationship with a woman before and was quite adamant in not even wanting to try it. This was mostly because of my experiences with girls up till that point: my female classmates made high-school hell for me either directly or indirectly, and even among adults I often encountered people who made me think that females in general were like aliens to me (or rather I was alien to them). It was well into university that I met girls that were actually cool and nice to me and soon after I began toying with the idea of getting it on with a gal.
I was pretty proud of this discovery, because I thought I was getting closer to myself (after years of depression no less) in ways I had never before. Somewhat simultaneously with this (or maybe in result of this), I gravitated increasingly closer toward a male gender presentation, something that I interpreted as going back to my tomboy roots. Slowely but surely I swapped my wardrobe, cut my hair short and tried finding the confidence to be myself.
Then I went further and further and yeah, I familiarized myself with what transgender means. My attention shifted from my sexuality to my gender presentation and my gender.
One of my first statements to my psychiatrist about my transgender feelings was "I feel like what I really am is a gay man." In hindsight, I'm not entirely sure why I didn't say bisexual or why I even included sexuality in this context, but the fact is, I said gay and I'm wondering if that initial feeling is coming back lately. I read Becoming a Visible Man from Jamison Green a month ago, and there was an interesting bit in it, where the author felt uneasy about having a relationship with a man prior his physical transition. He theorized that maybe he was afraid of feeling less of a man with a natal guy than with a woman. I wonder if it's similar in my case. I have fantasized about having a girlfriend and it always felt like a "boost to my masculinity" (as far as I could tell since I've never had a girlfriend). On the other hand, I'm confused if my attraction towards guys were mostly out of wanting to be like them or real sexual desire.
! I'm a mess in this regard, I guess.
I have a few news I thought I'd share with you.
Plans have changed somewhat. One of the surgeons I had an appointment with recommended having a few months of testosterone therapy before breast-reconstruction surgery to achieve the best possible results. He's one of the three docs I could read about on the Hungarian trans-forums, and there's nothing but praises all over. So I heeded his advice and called an endocrinologist. After blood-tests and ultrasound examinations, I finally have all the test results and will meet him next Thursday. Hopefully I'll get my first ever testosterone shot somewhere in October.
As for the surgery, if everything goes well, my boobs won't live to see summer (that sounded harsh).
In slightly different but still transition-related news: I came out at my workplace and the support I got was overwhelming. A lot of people congratulated me and even said how brave I was and wished me luck. Others asked if I will share the bigger checkpoints so to speak. I assured them I would (and that they would notice anyway). I've been buried so deep into the physical transition process and trying to kickstart it, that I wasn't prepared how big of an impact social transition would be. My colleagues are already warming up to my new name, even if they sometimes use the old one. I just laugh and say "It's okay", even I messed up once or twice, signing my e-mails with the wrong name.
The only people I haven't come out to are mostly distant relatives that don't really need to know/I have no connections with, my old high-school teachers (I will try and speak with one of them before the testosterone really kicks in) and my stepfather. I have no intention of sharing all this with him. Our relationship has a lot of pent up anger from my part due to the fact that he still can't believe I'm actually an adult now and don't take kindly to him treating me like an idiot teenager.
Agreed. Thanks for sharing, it's an interesting and uplifting read. :)
I've been to the endocrinologist and I got a presciption for 3 months worth of Androgel, a gel based testosterone supplement. I'll get it tomorrow and then probably start Saturday morning (since it's best to use it in the mornings). I'm excited~
I've been to the endocrinologist and I got a presciption for 3 months worth of Androgel, a gel based testosterone supplement. I'll get it tomorrow and then probably start Saturday morning (since it's best to use it in the mornings). I'm excited~
Best of luck and I hope everything goes well for you.
I've been to the endocrinologist and I got a presciption for 3 months worth of Androgel, a gel based testosterone supplement. I'll get it tomorrow and then probably start Saturday morning (since it's best to use it in the mornings). I'm excited~
So I'm kind of ignorant on the other side of the coin… how does that work, if I may ask?
So I'm kind of ignorant on the other side of the coin… how does that work, if I may ask?
You mean the gel? I hava to apply it every day to either my stomach area or my shoulder, strictly keeping it outside of the genital area. This way, the testosterone supply is more constant. I need to be careful though, as it can actually rub off on someone else if there's too much skin to skin contact, but since I'm single now and will be in the foreseeable future, it's not actually a concern for me. I just have to let it try, put on a shirt and look out for my kitten~
I'll just have to make it a ritual after I woke up and maybe showered to put the thing on.
I've been to the endocrinologist and I got a presciption for 3 months worth of Androgel, a gel based testosterone supplement. I'll get it tomorrow and then probably start Saturday morning (since it's best to use it in the mornings). I'm excited~
This is amazing Nolus~!!!!!
I remember when I first got prescribed the 'mones oh so many years ago and how much of a big deal this is!!
:D :D :D :D :D
I've been to the endocrinologist and I got a presciption for 3 months worth of Androgel, a gel based testosterone supplement. I'll get it tomorrow and then probably start Saturday morning (since it's best to use it in the mornings). I'm excited~
Good Luck! It's great to hear things are going forward for you.
@Zar:
Good Luck! It's great to hear things are going forward for you.
Thank you guys! This is really a huge step for me.
@Demon:
This is amazing Nolus~!!!!!
I remember when I first got prescribed the 'mones oh so many years ago and how much of a big deal this is!!
:D :D :D :D :D
I'm all giddy, I can't wait for tomorrow morning, when I apply the first packet of moustache-juice on myself~
It begins! dun-dun-dun
That small packet of gel contained way more then I imagined. Nonetheless, I took a shower, read the application tutorial again and went for it. It has almost the same smell as an alcohol based hand sanitizer, without any flowery additions. Feels the same too. Dries quickly and easily and leaves the same kind of feeling on my skin. I tried to apply it to parts I can easily cover with clothes (stomach, shoulders and some even went on my thighs since it was so much). SKin to skin contact with humans won't be a problem for a long while, so I only need to pay attention to little Kitty McIateapieceofchipsthatfellonthefloor.
Sometimes, I can look at myself in the mirror and not see a butch lesbian.
Those days, I see a guy with boobs. I guess that's an improvement?
Jokes aside, I took up running again (the cheapest cardio there is?) because of various reasons, the biggest of which after extensive research, I concluded that the best way to help testosterone tone down my curves is to actually get rid of the fat that made itself home on my bum and thighs. Another reason is improving my overall fitness and training my lungs. Kettlebell is awesome in that regard as well, but it's only twice a week, so a little more workout is necessary I feel.
Beginning my hormone therapy actually conjures two more reasons one of which combating restlessness. I feel that even after only one week of taking it, testosterone started heavily influencing my overall state of being. Debilitating tiredness affects me less and I feel more energized on the whole. However, I can also feel me being less "chill" and more easily frustrated. It's nothing I can't control in the short run (yet), but I want to take some preventative measures just to be on the safe side. Balance myself out as best as I can.
Also, when I was reading up on testosterone treatment and its effects, I often saw that looking at your male relatives can give you some idea of what's in store for you. Keyword here is CAN, because it won't necessarily be the case. I do hope I end up different, because almost everyone in my family struggles with being overweight. Whatever will be the case, starting a cardio workout cannot really hurt if one does it correctly (and I aim to do just that).
As for other changes, well, one week is a short time in this regard, so I never expected anything drastic, but some things are already working inside of me.
I smell differently and acne seems to hate me more than usual. It's still not as bad as it could be, but I shall wait.
I do hope I end up different, because almost everyone in my family struggles with being overweight. Whatever will be the case, starting a cardio workout cannot really hurt if one does it correctly (and I aim to do just that).
Certainly doesn't! This coming from a guy that only recently got into more exercise, it has the side benefit of making you feel more motivated. Something to shoot for, y'know? I'd rather minimize the similarity to my dad
Best of luck with your regiment and condition :)
Certainly doesn't! This coming from a guy that only recently got into more exercise, it has the side benefit of making you feel more motivated. Something to shoot for, y'know? I'd rather minimize the similarity to my dad
Best of luck with your regiment and condition :)
Exercise can be a wonderful thing. I love patting myself in the back (literally) after I ran my course and finished. It hurts breathing and existing in those few minutes, but damn if I didn't deserve that pat on the shoulder.
My problem with exercise is I'm very seasonal about it. I basically refuse to do much in the summer because…guhhhhh.
While I'll greedily lap up chances to throw myself out into miles long outings once it gets cold and dark early.
@Monkey:
My problem with exercise is I'm very seasonal about it. I basically refuse to do much in the summer because…guhhhhh.
While I'll greedily lap up chances to throw myself out into miles long outings once it gets cold and dark early.
I feel you. Two solutions to this is either doing the workout early in the morning while the sun is down or just coming up, or doing it in a group.
Also, this might be a strange notion, but today was a particularly hot day for October here in Hungary. Adding hormones to that, and I was positively sweating just walking down the streets. Then, I decided to not skip my planned running and went for it. I was swimming in my sweat but it actually felt better than just sitting. I was a little concerned of sweating all over the gym equipment, but fortunately, my shirt and pants soaked in everything.
I have something transition-related to share!
I've recently, over the past couple of months, started getting proper hair removal done on my face. I've tried laser and the like before but I guess the people I went to previously weren't as good or didn't have equipment this good…
I've had 2 treatments so far, with a 3rd happening Sat 10/28 and... it's amazing...
I have bad facial hair, to the point that it usually only takes a few hours after shaving for 5 o'clock shadow to show... I usually need to cake on makeup so that it's not apparent when it happens so I can make it through the day.......
BUT, after the 2 treatments? I haven't shaved since SATURDAY!!!!!!!!!
This is like... I'm so happy I could cry.
…
Congrats Demon Rin! ^.^
I had laser-hair surgery done myself, though I have blonde hairs still, so I got to have electrolysis for that; but regardless it is nice to not see facial hair on your face, as I understand that feeling quite well indeed! ^^
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
How can one know if they are asexual or not?
I am asking since when I vented to a friend a few days ago about my frustration with sexual stuff, and finding "private parts" from either gender disgusting. Also, I don't like the ideas of being touched most of the time. I also don't really care about sex, and I'm actually quite frighten of it. While researching, apparently there is a different between attraction. Like where one where you think someone is beautiful, while the other you want to have sex with them. The first option is how I feel all the time. Am I getting confused about all this? Is what I thought I was feeling was just your basic thing? I don't understand myself. And there is another problem, which is that I had sexual abuse in the past, and it seems I was shamed of being perverted or sexual as well. So, because of that, I think that's why I have these issues; but with what my friend said, there might be something else in the equation. I would like some advice on the subject, thank you very much in advance!
I would honestly advise just to talk some of that stuff out with a therapist if possible, particularly given the history that you mention. Someone more qualified can help with parsing that sort of stuff.
Overall, it's normal to question all of this and wonder where you fall or how you feel.
Hold up. You get to be called a pervert if you are violated or am I misunderstanding something here?
Congrats Demon Rin! ^.^
I had laser-hair surgery done myself, though I have blonde hairs still, so I got to have electrolysis for that; but regardless it is nice to not see facial hair on your face, as I understand that feeling quite well indeed! ^^
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
How can one know if they are asexual or not?
I am asking since when I vented to a friend a few days ago about my frustration with sexual stuff, and finding "private parts" from either gender disgusting. Also, I don't like the ideas of being touched most of the time. I also don't really care about sex, and I'm actually quite frighten of it. While researching, apparently there is a different between attraction. Like where one where you think someone is beautiful, while the other you want to have sex with them. The first option is how I feel all the time. Am I getting confused about all this? Is what I thought I was feeling was just your basic thing? I don't understand myself. And there is another problem, which is that I had sexual abuse in the past, and it seems I was shamed of being perverted or sexual as well. So, because of that, I think that's why I have these issues; but with what my friend said, there might be something else in the equation. I would like some advice on the subject, thank you very much in advance!
As Noqanky said, seeking a therapist would be a good idea. It would help you sort out all those thoughts and maybe set you on the way of understanding your feelings. It'll surely take some time but it's worth it in my opinion.
I have something transition-related to share!
I've recently, over the past couple of months, started getting proper hair removal done on my face. I've tried laser and the like before but I guess the people I went to previously weren't as good or didn't have equipment this good…
I've had 2 treatments so far, with a 3rd happening Sat 10/28 and... it's amazing...
I have bad facial hair, to the point that it usually only takes a few hours after shaving for 5 o'clock shadow to show... I usually need to cake on makeup so that it's not apparent when it happens so I can make it through the day.......
BUT, after the 2 treatments? I haven't shaved since SATURDAY!!!!!!!!!
This is like... I'm so happy I could cry.
Woo, that's awesome! I read somewhere that it can hurt, but I guess it's a small price to pay.
Congrats Rin :)
Hold up. You get to be called a pervert if you are violated or am I misunderstanding something here?
if I understand the post right (and please, if I'm wrong someone correct me) Ekila referenced sexual abuse and wondered if that might have affected her thinking the ways out. You definitely don't/shouldn't get called a pervert for being violated.
Congrats Rin :)
if I understand the post right (and please, if I'm wrong someone correct me) Ekila referenced sexual abuse and wondered if that might have affected her thinking the ways out. You definitely don't/shouldn't get called a pervert for being violated.
I didn't quite get that part either, I'm assuming that since a good bunch of rapists have been victims of rape at some point, the connection and stigmatization make it harder to talk about it in some places.
How can one know if they are asexual or not?
I am asking since when I vented to a friend a few days ago about my frustration with sexual stuff, and finding "private parts" from either gender disgusting. Also, I don't like the ideas of being touched most of the time. I also don't really care about sex, and I'm actually quite frighten of it. While researching, apparently there is a different between attraction. Like where one where you think someone is beautiful, while the other you want to have sex with them. The first option is how I feel all the time. Am I getting confused about all this? Is what I thought I was feeling was just your basic thing? I don't understand myself. And there is another problem, which is that I had sexual abuse in the past, and it seems I was shamed of being perverted or sexual as well. So, because of that, I think that's why I have these issues; but with what my friend said, there might be something else in the equation. I would like some advice on the subject, thank you very much in advance!
I'm asexual and I recognize some of what you're describing. For example I find genitalia (in particular penises) disturbing and sex disgusting. I've tried watching sex videos and pornographic art but feel nothing. Hell sometimes two people kissing in front of me is enough to make me uncomfortable. I find women pretty sometimes, but nothing beyond that. And it's been this way since I was a teen, even before I knew what asexuality was. For me the biggest indicator I was asexual was feeling left out when my friends and classmates talked about sex and love, feeling like I couldn't understand the appeal.
That being said, I agree with everyone else that seeing a therapist can be a good idea. It's fully possible you're asexual but that the abuse plays part in it as well. It can help put some doubts to rest.
And a last bit of advice, it's completely normal to question being asexual. Even I'm not sure of it. "I've never had sex so how do I know I hate it?", "What if I've just not met the right person yet", "what if everyone feels like this and I'm just being overly dramatic". Stuff like that. I've settled on not clinging to much to the label and just let life play out. Maybe I'll end up in a relationship, maybe I won't. I'll leave that to the future. The biggest reason I'd call myself Asexual is because people will take it more seriously than "I don't do sex".
I would honestly advise just to talk some of that stuff out with a therapist if possible, particularly given the history that you mention. Someone more qualified can help with parsing that sort of stuff.
Overall, it's normal to question all of this and wonder where you fall or how you feel.
As Noqanky said, seeking a therapist would be a good idea. It would help you sort out all those thoughts and maybe set you on the way of understanding your feelings. It'll surely take some time but it's worth it in my opinion.
Yeah, I see my therapist once a week. She knows about the sexual abuse, and my issues with being sexual. So, I mentioned this new thoughts and she what she thinks.
Hold up. You get to be called a pervert if you are violated or am I misunderstanding something here?
if I understand the post right (and please, if I'm wrong someone correct me) Ekila referenced sexual abuse and wondered if that might have affected her thinking the ways out. You definitely don't/shouldn't get called a pervert for being violated.
I didn't quite get that part either, I'm assuming that since a good bunch of rapists have been victims of rape at some point, the connection and stigmatization make it harder to talk about it in some places.
I was using perverted as another word for being sexual, and not being called a pervert. Basically, what I was saying is that I feel shameful for being sexual whenever I do such acts in the past. Sorry for the confusion.
@Zar:
I'm asexual and I recognize some of what you're describing. For example I find genitalia (in particular penises) disturbing and sex disgusting. I've tried watching sex videos and pornographic art but feel nothing. Hell sometimes two people kissing in front of me is enough to make me uncomfortable. I find women pretty sometimes, but nothing beyond that. And it's been this way since I was a teen, even before I knew what asexuality was. For me the biggest indicator I was asexual was feeling left out when my friends and classmates talked about sex and love, feeling like I couldn't understand the appeal.
Yeah…. I do feel uncomfortable when people kiss in front of me. I always thought that was jealously of not having someone, but this brings light an new perspective on the subject. And even when I do see images that are "sexual" or "pornographic", I'm like "okay". Or the fact when I hit the age of puberty, I was not really interesting in anything sexual. When I did "liked" girls when I was younger, it was nothing to with sex; from what I remember. I wonder if the only reason I was so interested in a relationship with a girl was to replace my mother who never loved me... bleh. My life is so confusing.
That being said, I agree with everyone else that seeing a therapist can be a good idea. It's fully possible you're asexual but that the abuse plays part in it as well. It can help put some doubts to rest.
Yeah, I make sure to mention this to her, when I see her on Friday.
And a last bit of advice, it's completely normal to question being asexual. Even I'm not sure of it. "I've never had sex so how do I know I hate it?", "What if I've just not met the right person yet", "what if everyone feels like this and I'm just being overly dramatic". Stuff like that. I've settled on not clinging to much to the label and just let life play out. Maybe I'll end up in a relationship, maybe I won't. I'll leave that to the future. The biggest reason I'd call myself Asexual is because people will take it more seriously than "I don't do sex".
Yeah… I never had sex in my life. People said that to me in the past. At several points in my life I switched my "label" to asexual. Maybe I got it right the first time? I don't really know :(
Thanks everyone for your responses! I appreciate it! I make sure to update on my status in the future. Hopefully, I get this all figured out eventually.
Officials of the upcoming government already said that they will follow the court rule. Before the election we got the gay marriage, and now this. Love it.
That's very nice news. It's good to see some parts of the world go towards a better future while others (coughcough) hit reverse while running over hopes and dreams.
About genders, I have a question for anyone interested: what do you think about more than 2 genders? What are your feelings about people coming up with "new" genders to define themselves?
I hate to admit, but this question has been on my mind because of one particular phenomenon: surfing the internet, I inadvertently came upon dozens of "there's only two genders, anyone who says otherwise need to open a biology book" and variations of those. I was forced to download a plug-in to my Firefox that allows me to prevent me to visit one certain site, namely 9gag. For some reason, I've always returned despite knowing that it's a complete waste of time and is overall not good for me. And it's full of idiots, to put it mildly. Offensive idiots.
Despite the origin of my question, I still feel it's a valid discussion to have, and I'm interested in what others think.
I've said it before, that in my opinion, a scale (much like the Kinsley-scale) can be a good starting point to understand gender and how it's not so binary as people would believe. That said, I'm not against expressions such as bigender, third-gender, agender and so on. While I can become confused sometimes as to what some of these entail, I'm always willing to look it up, and try to understand why someone feels the need to use something other than male and female. After all, and I've talked about this here as well, while I'm certain in my inner masculinity and my transgender status, there are times when I fall into a sort of androgynous state of mind. There's maybe a word for that already (I'm pretty sure there is), but even if I found it, I doubt it would have much practical use in the environment I'm currently living in.
You see, coming out at my workplace has been a very thought-provoking experience. I was prepared to explain the meaning of transgender and collected basic info I felt was needed to be able to successfully come out to my co-workers and bosses. I had to realize that simply saying transgender or transsexual is not enough for most people. Additional explanations are necessary, and this can become impractical in certain situations. Using myself as an example, if I wanted to describe myself simply without going to great lengths about everything, I usually try to say "I'm a gay transman". Easy to understand or explain, and does a relatively good job of giving me an outline. However, it doesn't tell the whole story and anyone can agree that a person is so much more than two or three words. I identify as gay, yet sometimes I do feel attraction to women and androgynous individuals. You might say I qualify as a bisexual or pansexual. I'm a litte iffy about the bisexual part, because I feel that gay is closer to the truth. As for pansexual, that is another word that's not that widely known, and I'm not sure I truly fall into that category.
So, what I'm trying to say here is, in my opinion, more genders than two is necessary, but overdoing it can have less benefits than intended. Kind of same for sexuality, but my main focus here was gender.
About genders, I have a question for anyone interested: what do you think about more than 2 genders? What are your feelings about people coming up with "new" genders to define themselves?
I hate to admit, but this question has been on my mind because of one particular phenomenon: surfing the internet, I inadvertently came upon dozens of "there's only two genders, anyone who says otherwise need to open a biology book" and variations of those. I was forced to download a plug-in to my Firefox that allows me to prevent me to visit one certain site, namely 9gag. For some reason, I've always returned despite knowing that it's a complete waste of time and is overall not good for me. And it's full of idiots, to put it mildly. Offensive idiots.
well there's your problem, 9gag is a worse 4chan
In all seriousness, I've thought about this. I think when you have people saying "oh, i'm X", when it's something else added to the list of the possibilities, that's when you get annoyed/spiteful people who will double down on the "there's not 42+ genders, only 2". The spectrum is broad, and one can identify as they wish, but there's a reason why people usually parody this with "oh i'm a demisexual trans-europhic quadgirl", slapping together buzzwords.
I will admit I've been really confused with some terminology too. Like apparently LGBT is not just those four, but Q, A, and some pluses….? Maybe some things you can't just put a specific word to....at least not yet? When the public is still adapting to transgender concepts, after a (still-ongoing) span of getting accustomed to gay concepts. A scale like you suggested could be beneficial.
Now I have a serious thing myself, and this stemmed from heated discussions with a friend; we've been clashing with a LOT of political beliefs, but so I can understand without being misguided:
[hide]
The whole concept of a transgender person being "mentally ill". I really don't like thinking that because of the negative implication of the phrase itself, that people who are trans are just deluded crazies. That's incredibly insensitive for me to think, but my friend has been countering me with that, nearly trying to get me to admit it. Why? Is it one of those things that is correct on a purely 100% medical level? Is it a self-loathing to acknowledge it?
From I understand, individuals face gender dysphoria (i think one time i wrote dysmorphia, jesus christ) and transitioning or at least, coming to terms, is what helps the whole situation, although the negative thoughts might continue.
I mean, at least in my eyes, how can someone who is trans be """mentally ill""" if they're hard working members of society, have hopes and dreams, and continue on with their daily lives like cisgender people? Is it something I'm not getting?
I apologize if my question is a little….unintentionally insensitive.[/hide]
Now I have a serious thing myself, and this stemmed from heated discussions with a friend; we've been clashing with a LOT of political beliefs, but so I can understand without being misguided:
[hide]
The whole concept of a transgender person being "mentally ill". I really don't like thinking that because of the negative implication of the phrase itself, that people who are trans are just deluded crazies. That's incredibly insensitive for me to think, but my friend has been countering me with that, nearly trying to get me to admit it. Why? Is it one of those things that is correct on a purely 100% medical level? Is it a self-loathing to acknowledge it?
From I understand, individuals face gender dysphoria (i think one time i wrote dysmorphia, jesus christ) and transitioning or at least, coming to terms, is what helps the whole situation, although the negative thoughts might continue.I mean, at least in my eyes, how can someone who is trans be """mentally ill""" if they're hard working members of society, have hopes and dreams, and continue on with their daily lives like cisgender people? Is it something I'm not getting?
I apologize if my question is a little….unintentionally insensitive.[/hide]
Well, for starters being transgender has nothing to do with the mind, but more within oneself, you might say. The idea of changing genders is like someone trying to get a new arm; when being born without one for one specific analogy. Also, the whole concept of being transgender has been taken off the main mental illness book; though I don't remember the name of the book.
As for negative thoughts and whatnot, that is because of society and the views about us. So, of course we would have depression issues, or in my case; I'm scared of people judging me for who I am, which also limits me in making friends; as there is the chance someone might erupt upon me. So, those are separate issues. People try to label it as a illness because it is something that is not considered "normal" to them. The same exact thing happened to people that were gay or lesbian years ago.
So, in conclusion, being transgender is just as normal as being gay or lesbian. It is not a choice either, but also it does not effect the mind; but because of how society is, the suicide rate is higher; and we get negative. All because we want to be accepted for who we are, and not despised. Hope this makes sense.
Oh, one last thing, science itself proved it is not a mental illness, so there is that; and transgender-ism happens in nature even, like with clown fish; who are all born male, and the most dominant one becomes a female. So, yeah o:
Maybe it's because I still can't quite grasp the entire idea of gender, but I don't know why there would be a need for more than two. While gender and sex are two different things, it feels like these days when you talk to the average person, it's pretty interchangeable. When someone says they are male, first thing that pops in my mind is the person will have certain physical traits, unless otherwise noted. Outside of having a small idea of what they can look like, I know nothing about them, and have to talk to them more to really get to know them.
The one thing I can understand is that while we have improved in a number of ways, there are still gender roles that are hardwired in society, and by identifying as one of the two genders, a lot of people will expect certain things from you. So as a male, I've had people expect me to love sports, hunting, and other things that can be assumed more for males, where if I was female and didn't care for those, people wouldn't be judging me for not liking those things. So I can see that not being defined as either would feel freeing in some way. Still, it seems less like an issue have having new gender terms and just trying to get rid of the idea of genders for the most part? Like I said, I still don't quite grasp the entire scope of what gender encompasses, so I could be looking at this wrong.
Well, for starters being transgender has nothing to do with the mind, but more within oneself, you might say. The idea of changing genders is like someone trying to get a new arm; when being born without one for one specific analogy. Also, the whole concept of being transgender has been taken off the main mental illness book; though I don't remember the name of the book.
People try to label it as a illness because it is something that is not considered "normal" to them. The same exact thing happened to people that were gay or lesbian years ago.
ahhhh.
So, in conclusion, being transgender is just as normal as being gay or lesbian. It is not a choice either, but also it does not effect the mind; but because of how society is, the suicide rate is higher; and we get negative. All because we want to be accepted for who we are, and not despised. Hope this makes sense.
Oh, one last thing, science itself proved it is not a mental illness, so there is that; and transgender-ism happens in nature even, like with clown fish; who are all born male, and the most dominant one becomes a female. So, yeah o:
Well, thank you for the explanation. Especially the positive, natural spin on it. To briefly add on
[hide]my friend is bisexual, so i usually scrunch my nose in confusion whenever we start talking about it. But then I realize that again, sex and gender are different things, and it's very possible to have someone who is not hetero but still cisgender shake their heads at this stuff.[/hide]
Well, thank you for the explanation. Especially the positive, natural spin on it. To briefly add on
[hide]my friend is bisexual, so i usually scrunch my nose in confusion whenever we start talking about it. But then I realize that again, sex and gender are different things, and it's very possible to have someone who is not hetero but still cisgender shake their heads at this stuff.[/hide]
You are very welcome. And I see. Yeah, sometimes the T gets forgotten in LGBT. So, in a way, at it feels like we are separated from the rest. There is also the part about not understanding what it means to be transgender from some of the people that are from the LGB community; despite us and them both having difficulty in being accepted in society.
[hide]
The whole concept of a transgender person being "mentally ill". I really don't like thinking that because of the negative implication of the phrase itself, that people who are trans are just deluded crazies. That's incredibly insensitive for me to think, but my friend has been countering me with that, nearly trying to get me to admit it. Why? Is it one of those things that is correct on a purely 100% medical level? Is it a self-loathing to acknowledge it?
From I understand, individuals face gender dysphoria (i think one time i wrote dysmorphia, jesus christ) and transitioning or at least, coming to terms, is what helps the whole situation, although the negative thoughts might continue.I mean, at least in my eyes, how can someone who is trans be """mentally ill""" if they're hard working members of society, have hopes and dreams, and continue on with their daily lives like cisgender people? Is it something I'm not getting?
I apologize if my question is a little….unintentionally insensitive.[/hide]
To give the more psychological approach to this whole situation:
Originally, the entire trans situation was simply labelled a Gender Identity Disorder (GID), and definitely classified in the DSM, which is the manual the APA (American Psychiatric Association) uses to categorize mental disorders and standardize how they are treated and approached.
The DSM gets updated every now and then to adjust to times and research. When it got updated to DSM-5 (fifth iteration), GID was re-named to just gender dysphoria. The change basically is about moving the source of the issue from one of identity to one of psychological distress, since instead of stigmatizing the notion of having a different gender/sex than the one assigned what they focus on is detecting and treating the distress and psychological impact of having a body that doesn't conform to gender/sex. The change is pretty much the result of years of actual research and input from people who actually study these things and encounter them in their profession.
The DSM is probably one of the most standard documents in terms of mental disorders, despite the fact it still does get criticized and stuff for cultural bias and subjectivity and all that junk. So of course, this doesn't mean the DSM is the Bible on what is right. But what it does mean is that anyone arguing that being trans is a mental illness literally doesn't know jack shit about what they're talking about, since they clearly don't even know that the classification of the disorder is not on the notion of being trans but on the notion of experiencing stress as a result.
Even IF people argue for the mental illness thing then they just exhibit the sort of assholes they are, because medically speaking the way to deal with and treat dysphoria tends to be FTE, HRT and GRS… so clinically speaking denying trans people from identifying as they wish is like someone going to someone who is clinically depressed and saying "you don't need medicine, just stop being sad." Which of course, some assholes would.
Which leads to the other topic of mental illness. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is completely disfunctional, doesn't mean someone won't function as a working member of society, doesn't mean they don't have working lives with hopes and dreams... it's just like how people with physical illness are still capable of having rich, fulfilling, important lives.
Of course, some aspects of mental illness will interfere with daily life, but the notion of treating mental illness is to dilute that impact as best as possible to enable people to continue living well.
The reason I wish to make these clarifications is because of the oversimplification of "they can't be mentally ill, they seem like nice, hard-working people". Overall, I get it's an innocent defense of who trans people are, but it reduces from the contributions and capabilities of people with mental illnesses to assume that just by being mentally ill they are unable to be equally valuable to society. And ultimately, it's the sort of thing that needs to be constantly corrected for people to realize mental illness, while being something obviously negative, is not something we should be stigmatizing to the point people avoid having therapists or treatment due to not wanting people to think they're "crazy".
@The:
Maybe it's because I still can't quite grasp the entire idea of gender, but I don't know why there would be a need for more than two. While gender and sex are two different things, it feels like these days when you talk to the average person, it's pretty interchangeable. When someone says they are male, first thing that pops in my mind is the person will have certain physical traits, unless otherwise noted. Outside of having a small idea of what they can look like, I know nothing about them, and have to talk to them more to really get to know them.
The one thing I can understand is that while we have improved in a number of ways, there are still gender roles that are hardwired in society, and by identifying as one of the two genders, a lot of people will expect certain things from you. So as a male, I've had people expect me to love sports, hunting, and other things that can be assumed more for males, where if I was female and didn't care for those, people wouldn't be judging me for not liking those things. So I can see that not being defined as either would feel freeing in some way. Still, it seems less like an issue have having new gender terms and just trying to get rid of the idea of genders for the most part? Like I said, I still don't quite grasp the entire scope of what gender encompasses, so I could be looking at this wrong.
My understanding, based on several books and articles I read, is that sex and gender are two different things.
Sex is what your body (chromosomes, genitals etc.) "say" you are. You can be a woman, a man or and intersex individual. This alone proves that having only two categories goes against biology itself.
Gender is more of a question of mind than body. A trans individual has a sex and gender that do no align with one another. The easiest examples being transwomen and transmen, the former being men by sex and female by gender, the latter being women by sex and male by gender. So far, the gender binary is still standing. What about those who take on characteristics from both the male and female "basket"? Basically every human that has ever lived can be put into this group, especially considering that certain activities, colours, interests etc. are gendered differently in certain cultures and/or time periods.
To complicate things further, we have something called gender representation, which is how you show yourself to the outside world. This can be feminine, masculine, androgynous and mixed. It can also be changed over time, in fact, I've heard of people jumping between the categories on a day by day basis.
For the sake of simplicity and our collective sanity, let's exclude sexual orientation at this point. Now we have 3 components each having multiple variations, the number of which seem to always exceed 2.
Using myself as an example once again, let's look at 4 phases in my life in the light of these 3 components.
! As a small kid:
Sex: woman**
Gender: male*
Gender representation: androgynous
! As a teenager (for a short period of time):
Sex: woman**
Gender: male*
Gender representation: feminine
! Beginning of university:
Sex: woman**
Gender: male*
Gender representation: feminine (to a small degree, on occasion)/androgynous
! Now:
Sex: woman**
Gender: male
Gender representation: masculine/sometimes androgynous
This list has some asterisks I'll now try to clarify:
*although I didn't know at the first three phases, and gender dysphoria didn't really kick in before puberty (and even at that time, I didn't know it was GD), I was always male by gender. Gender is not something that can be changed by outside sources. Society kind of assumes that every child's gender is corresponding to their sex, they become gendered the moment they are born (often before), preventing them from being able to discover and define themselves.
Sex is kind of easy to determine, while gender takes time to fully define.
**I wrote one's sex can be woman, man or intersex, although now I can see how it can clash with other parts of the terminology, namely transman and transwoman. I've encountered the phrases transmale and transfemale, but the official and widely used forms are those with -man and -woman. I thought of writing XY and XX respectively, because calling myself a woman, even it by sex I am that, felt simply wrong.
Differentiating sex and gender can make understanding transgender as a whole. That said, note that we're talking English here, a language that has two separate words for these two separate things. Hungarian only has one and I can imagine other languages having the same problem.
Completely getting rid of genders in itself would not solve problems as much as getting rid of gender stereotypes would. There's nothing wrong with male and female, trouble comes from making assumptions based on beliefs and expectations and not being able to deconstruct them in order to see a person for what they are. I admit that I too tend to assume certain things about individuals I've just met and see as either male or female, however, I try my best to slap myself in the face when I catch myself passing judgement based on these expectations. It's not easy, but it's necessary.
But what it does mean is that anyone arguing that being trans is a mental illness literally doesn't know jack shit about what they're talking about, since they clearly don't even know that the classification of the disorder is not on the notion of being trans but on the notion of experiencing stress as a result.
Wanted to highlight this point in particular
Which leads to the other topic of mental illness. Mental illness doesn't mean someone is completely disfunctional, doesn't mean someone won't function as a working member of society, doesn't mean they don't have working lives with hopes and dreams… it's just like how people with physical illness are still capable of having rich, fulfilling, important lives.
Of course, some aspects of mental illness will interfere with daily life, but the notion of treating mental illness is to dilute that impact as best as possible to enable people to continue living well.
The reason I wish to make these clarifications is because of the oversimplification of "they can't be mentally ill, they seem like nice, hard-working people". Overall, I get it's an innocent defense of who trans people are, but it reduces from the contributions and capabilities of people with mental illnesses to assume that just by being mentally ill they are unable to be equally valuable to society. And ultimately, it's the sort of thing that needs to be constantly corrected for people to realize mental illness, while being something obviously negative, is not something we should be stigmatizing to the point people avoid having therapists or treatment due to not wanting people to think they're "crazy".
Right, I hope I wasn't coming off as virtue signaling or anything like that, my view was a little black and white hahaha
Thanks for getting into the more technical aspects of this, makes things more clear moving forward :)
My understanding, based on several books and articles I read, is that sex and gender are two different things.
Sex is what your body (chromosomes, genitals etc.) "say" you are. You can be a woman, a man or and intersex individual. This alone proves that having only two categories goes against biology itself.
Gender is more of a question of mind than body. A trans individual has a sex and gender that do no align with one another. The easiest examples being transwomen and transmen, the former being men by sex and female by gender, the latter being women by sex and male by gender. So far, the gender binary is still standing. What about those who take on characteristics from both the male and female "basket"? Basically every human that has ever lived can be put into this group, especially considering that certain activities, colours, interests etc. are gendered differently in certain cultures and/or time periods.To complicate things further, we have something called gender representation, which is how you show yourself to the outside world. This can be feminine, masculine, androgynous and mixed. It can also be changed over time, in fact, I've heard of people jumping between the categories on a day by day basis.
For the sake of simplicity and our collective sanity, let's exclude sexual orientation at this point. Now we have 3 components each having multiple variations, the number of which seem to always exceed 2.
Using myself as an example once again, let's look at 4 phases in my life in the light of these 3 components.! As a small kid:
Sex: woman**
Gender: male*
Gender representation: androgynous
! As a teenager (for a short period of time):
Sex: woman**
Gender: male*
Gender representation: feminine
! Beginning of university:
Sex: woman**
Gender: male*
Gender representation: feminine (to a small degree, on occasion)/androgynous
! Now:
Sex: woman**
Gender: male
Gender representation: masculine/sometimes androgynous
This list has some asterisks I'll now try to clarify:
*although I didn't know at the first three phases, and gender dysphoria didn't really kick in before puberty (and even at that time, I didn't know it was GD), I was always male by gender. Gender is not something that can be changed by outside sources. Society kind of assumes that every child's gender is corresponding to their sex, they become gendered the moment they are born (often before), preventing them from being able to discover and define themselves.
Sex is kind of easy to determine, while gender takes time to fully define.**I wrote one's sex can be woman, man or intersex, although now I can see how it can clash with other parts of the terminology, namely transman and transwoman. I've encountered the phrases transmale and transfemale, but the official and widely used forms are those with -man and -woman. I thought of writing XY and XX respectively, because calling myself a woman, even it by sex I am that, felt simply wrong.
Differentiating sex and gender can make understanding transgender as a whole. That said, note that we're talking English here, a language that has two separate words for these two separate things. Hungarian only has one and I can imagine other languages having the same problem.
Completely getting rid of genders in itself would not solve problems as much as getting rid of gender stereotypes would. There's nothing wrong with male and female, trouble comes from making assumptions based on beliefs and expectations and not being able to deconstruct them in order to see a person for what they are. I admit that I too tend to assume certain things about individuals I've just met and see as either male or female, however, I try my best to slap myself in the face when I catch myself passing judgement based on these expectations. It's not easy, but it's necessary.
I completely agree with you, and that's what I meant to say, but looks like my wording didn't make things clear.
You mentioned about people who switch between gender daily, and I've heard about that before as well. Not sure if it's the official term, but the few times I have heard about it the people are considered gender fluid. So back to your original question about having more than 2 genders, I still think the current 2 are fine. That said, if a new gender term was created, I would be fine using it . And if an individual wants to consider themselves something outside male or female, I'll respect that as well.
@The:
I completely agree with you, and that's what I meant to say, but looks like my wording didn't make things clear.
You mentioned about people who switch between gender daily, and I've heard about that before as well. Not sure if it's the official term, but the few times I have heard about it the people are considered gender fluid. So back to your original question about having more than 2 genders, I still think the current 2 are fine. That said, if a new gender term was created, I would be fine using it . And if an individual wants to consider themselves something outside male or female, I'll respect that as well.
Oh, sorry then, I misunderstood.
About daily gender-changing, I feel it's better to call is gender-presentation changing, since gender isn't really something one can change. For genderfluid persons, their gender is a constant duality, if that makes any sense (and please, do correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm anything but an expert on this), so instead of being either male of female, they're both.
At least a third option beside female and male should be available in my opinion, and that is agender/non-binary. It's only one addition, but I feel it would make some people more comfortable. I say this despite me being completely fine using man/male on any document*. An "other" option seems a little… disrespectful or even dehumanizing to me. If it's an option where you can fill in a blank face with whatever, then I see no problem with it however.
*My request still hasn't been approved and despite a conference taking place two weeks ago, there's no solution in sight. The local Trans organization seemed optimistic, but all I read was "nothing happened in the past year and still nothing's happening".
Luckily, starting hormone therapy and slowly planning chest reconstruction surgery takes my mind off of it, and makes me enthusiastic for the future, because I'm actually moving forward~
I might be imagining it, but a barely visible sort of baby moustache appeared on my face.
Oh, sorry then, I misunderstood.
About daily gender-changing, I feel it's better to call is gender-presentation changing, since gender isn't really something one can change. For genderfluid persons, their gender is a constant duality, if that makes any sense (and please, do correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm anything but an expert on this), so instead of being either male of female, they're both.
At least a third option beside female and male should be available in my opinion, and that is agender/non-binary. It's only one addition, but I feel it would make some people more comfortable. I say this despite me being completely fine using man/male on any document*. An "other" option seems a little… disrespectful or even dehumanizing to me. If it's an option where you can fill in a blank face with whatever, then I see no problem with it however.*My request still hasn't been approved and despite a conference taking place two weeks ago, there's no solution in sight. The local Trans organization seemed optimistic, but all I read was "nothing happened in the past year and still nothing's happening".
Luckily, starting hormone therapy and slowly planning chest reconstruction surgery takes my mind off of it, and makes me enthusiastic for the future, because I'm actually moving forward~
I might be imagining it, but a barely visible sort of baby moustache appeared on my face.
No need to apologize, it was my lack of understanding and inability to articulate my thoughts that caused the confusion, so that's all on me. I do have to apologize, because I realized I was getting stuck on genders being defined as either male or female, and that there are those who may not identify as either. So I can agree with you that a choice that says you don't conform with either male or female would be good to have. As for gender-presentation changing and genderfluid, I wouldn't know if they are separate or similar terms.
Sorry to hear about the request not going through yet, but glad that the other events are helping you out.