which case ? the reason he was tired is because of gear 4 not because he was tired
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
which case ? the reason he was tired is because of gear 4 not because he was tired
Nope, the fact that using G4 for such a short while made him look like this means he was really tired actually.
Nope, the fact that using G4 for such a short while made him look like this means he was really tired actually.
we don't know since Oda didn't say it
we don't know since Oda didn't say it
It´s simple 1+1=2. There is no correlation between stamina and soul, at least Oda has not drawn one, hence that´s the only possibility.
Then there is Luffy not even being able to stay awake before confronting a Yonkou and her crew and Jinbe literally mentioning that they need the rest.
Last time Luffy fought until exhaustion after beating DD, he slept 3 days through, now he did the same against Cracker, then confronted Sanji and got many hits in, then confronted the enraged army, then was imprisoned and nearly turned into a mummy before Sanji found him, and then he got 10 minutes sleep.
It´s simple logic.
People forgot that bm powers relies on fear if you dont fear her she cant do anything to you so it is impossible that she does something to make luffy lose g4
This is wrong. The citizen willingly give their lifespan every 6 months. No fear involved in this process.
You guys need to stop saying stuff like "she can only do what she did so far".
All the exposition regarding Big Mom's power come from Pound or King Baum. Not the actual holder of the power.
Why do you keep assuming that we know everything about a Yonko's strength ? One that has yet to fight seriously i.e. reveal her strongest powers.
At first a mirror based power sounds pretty straightforward. Yet Brulée can create clones and access an other dimension :wassat:
A power's application can't be guessed just with its name.
Be sure that a concept as subjective as "soul" will give a power with more than one or two applications.
Give some room to your imagination guys.
Now am I right about BM stealing Luffy's strength ? I am not sure. But it's obvious we have yet to see the most overpowered of BM's powers.
That's my main issue. There's nothing for Luffy to gain from just throwing a single punch either, especially if it just leads to exhaustion.
C'mon dude, did you miss the rest of the post?
It's a battle of wills. Luffy had nothing to prove to a weakling like Bellamy, hence no fight. Luffy has something to prove to Big Mom, hence why he said "Imma throw a punch real quick before we leave".
It's like being bullied by a child and being bullied by someone your own size.
You can just ignore the child, they are powerless to do anything to you even if they don't realize it. But if the bully is your own size/age or bigger you need to stand your ground a bit or else you'll mark yourself as a weak target.
This is wrong. The citizen willingly give their lifespan every 6 months. No fear involved in this process.
You guys need to stop saying stuff like "she can only do what she did so far".
All the exposition regarding Big Mom's power come from Pound or King Baum. Not the actual holder of the power.
Why do you keep assuming that we know everything about a Yonko's strength ? One that has yet to fight seriously i.e. reveal her strongest powers.At first a mirror based power sounds pretty straightforward. Yet Brulée can create clones and access an other dimension :wassat:
A power's application can't be guessed just with its name.
Be sure that a concept as subjective as "soul" will give a power with more than one or two applications.Give some room to your imagination guys.
Now am I right about BM stealing Luffy's strength ? I am not sure. But it's obvious we have yet to see the most overpowered of BM's powers.
Big Mom has recurrent rampages trought her kingdom and then asks the citizens "Will you stay or will you play russian rollete before you leave?"
You really think there's no fear involved in that process?
We're not talking about exposition here, we're talking about what we've seen.
Jimbei truly felt no fear in front of her and she was unable to take his life span away.
I do agree with you that we've not seen everything Big Mom is capable and I'm expecting to see a lot of crazy shit from her in the future but we were presented rules to how a small part of her power works:
The soul/lifespan stealling only works if the target fears her. It's kinda like Conqueror's haki, if you're strong enough you get to have a real fight, if you're not the battle ends before it even begins.
we were presented rules to how a small part of her power works
Then again those rules were presented by other characters than Big Mom. Like no one knew about Doffy's clone ability, Big Mom has her little secret.
With that said I understand where you are coming from. But I am not convinced yet.
It´s simple 1+1=2. There is no correlation between stamina and soul, at least Oda has not drawn one, hence that´s the only possibility.
Then there is Luffy not even being able to stay awake before confronting a Yonkou and her crew and Jinbe literally mentioning that they need the rest.
Last time Luffy fought until exhaustion after beating DD, he slept 3 days through, now he did the same against Cracker, then confronted Sanji and got many hits in, then confronted the enraged army, then was imprisoned and nearly turned into a mummy before Sanji found him, and then he got 10 minutes sleep.It´s simple logic.
So simple that people argue about it on 17 pages
And there is no logic to apply in manga (especially shounen) about such things. Brook and luffy recovered from drinking milk. If Oda wants to show that luffy is tired he says it explicitely otherwise it is just speculation
@Shobu:
Thank you.
and on the panel where Caesar sees himself, all the roof is reflected so the mirror is very big than just her body.
I think the scene shows us not that brulee is reflecting the whole plateau, but it shows that not only her got on the outside to stop caesar, but also all the other guys like mont d'or and amande.
or are you talking about the scene on top?
!
because there ceasar actually is the person on the left i think.
After this chapter I would really like to see Big Mom blocking this one
Though when Kaido will be hit with that I expect that he will come out of it almost unscathed..
So simple that people argue about it on 17 pages
And there is no logic to apply in manga (especially shounen) about such things. Brook and luffy recovered from drinking milk. If Oda wants to show that luffy is tired he says it explicitely otherwise it is just speculation
Can´t help it if people can not understand the simplest of things. Well, there are also some that still discuss CC being a new nakama, so that´s hardly my fault nor Oda´s fault.
Especially Oda clearly distinguishes between joke scenes and serious scenes though. If Nami hits and it hurts, it´s not because she can use Haki, it´s because it´s supposed to be a funny scene. If someone else in a fight punches Luffy and it hurts, it´s Haki.
This is the same thing, once again the fault of the audience not understanding the distinction.
For all those saying that Big Mom did not have an influence on Luffy's Gear 4th, then why the steamy substance from her hand with the sound effect afterward?
At no point have we ever seen the steam from Luffy's Gear 4th staying on Doflamingo or Cracker. It's just too out of place to think it's just Luffy running out of energy conveniently at that moment after just eating and sleeping before fighting.
To be fair after Dressrosa he had to sleep and eat alot to recover when he just didn't have that time on WCI.
To be fair after Dressrosa he had to sleep and eat alot to recover when he just didn't have that time on WCI.
He did though.
He ate the bento box Sanji made, and slept in Bege until minutes before bursting out of the cake.
Not a ton of time, but enough to discredit the idea that Luffy is so exhausted he could only use Gear 4th for a single hit. Even with that small amount of rest, he didn't use Gear 4th for about half a day after fighting against Cracker.
The strawhats are escaping, Sanji said not to fall for BM's lure. Luffy said one punch. Did it. Deflated. Ran away.
Deflating itself probably makes him tired
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To be fair, Big Mom may have blocked kong gun in a spar, but Luffy's face after it looked very serious and unmoved
He did though.
He ate the bento box Sanji made, and slept in Bege until minutes before bursting out of the cake.
Not a ton of time, but enough to discredit the idea that Luffy is so exhausted he could only use Gear 4th for a single hit. Even with that small amount of rest, he didn't use Gear 4th for about half a day after fighting against Cracker.
Luffy looked worse after getting out of the cage than he did in Dressrosa. In Dressrosa he needed 3 days to get up and even then his allies said he did not recover fully, in WCI he slept 10 minutes before confronting a Yonkou and her crew.
I had a look at the Japanese.
力が抜ける
"(I'm) losing strength" is different wording for it.
I'll put it here. Not sure if it changes much though.
Luffy looked worse after getting out of the cage than he did in Dressrosa. In Dressrosa he needed 3 days to get up and even then his allies said he did not recover fully, in WCI he slept 10 minutes before confronting a Yonkou and her crew.
And made absolutely zero remarks of not having energy from the point of eating the bento until this chapter, where we see Big Mom do something with her hand right after blocking Luffy's punch.
I think the scene shows us not that brulee is reflecting the whole plateau, but it shows that not only her got on the outside to stop caesar, but also all the other guys like mont d'or and amande.
or are you talking about the scene on top?
! http://img.readms.net/cdn/manga/51/4392/14.png
because there ceasar actually is the person on the left i think.
I'm talking about the panel on the bottom. Actually, real Mont D'or and Amande are looking to Caesar while Big Mom and Katakuri are being reflected just as their background where they are. It is the full roof that is reflected with Brûlée's power, and both are "standing" on the place where Bege was doing security entrance… as you can see Katakuri is standind above the place where the Homie door was, and it's backwards to Caesar, meaning it's reflection.
The real meaning of the Mira Mira is to confuse the reader, and it does it very well but i don't stand this lack of information from Oda ¬¬
Btw, don't know if anyone said this... but i suppose that the Tamatebako exploded on the east side of Big Mom castle, judging from the South side where Bege's hideout was. Could it be that the Library was on that east side of the castle?? Because i think the most probably thing to happen now is that the bookshelfs and everything will be burn therefore freeding all the prisoners of Mont D'or's powers.
Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it. Even if something can be known about it,
knowledge about it can't be communicated to others. Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood.
And made absolutely zero remarks of not having energy from the point of eating the bento until this chapter, where we see Big Mom do something with her hand right after blocking Luffy's punch.
Since it was not necessary if you have basic logical thinking, 10 minutes is not 3 days
For all those saying that Big Mom did not have an influence on Luffy's Gear 4th, then why the steamy substance from her hand with the sound effect afterward?
Impact from Luffy's Kong Gun?
Yeah, it is not rare that after a big exchange the effects of the impact are left behind as smoke.
I think it would be cool if Big Mom was responsible, but not sure how it ties with her ability. Something like that would be a named ability in my opinion. It is powerful enough to warrant it.
I think that the fear aspect of Big Mom's ability is solely related to Soul Pocus, not all of her abilities.
Almost like a broken record, it is a thing of stamina, authors may not explicitly talk about it, but the visual cues are there. Luffy has not rested the same amount than he did in Dressrosa(Reminder that he eats while he sleeps), Luffy may have rested and eaten enough to move around, and be active, but not nearly enough to say he is fully rested.
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@Shobu:
Btw, don't know if anyone said this… but i suppose that the Tamatebako exploded on the east side of Big Mom castle, judging from the South side where Bege's hideout was. Could it be that the Library was on that east side of the castle?? Because i think the most probably thing to happen now is that the bookshelfs and everything will be burn therefore freeding all the prisoners of Mont D'or's powers.
Quite a bit, if not all the books were already set on fire. Though I wouldn't be surprised if a rampage ended up happening during whatever escape happens.
Stampede time!! yea.. i agreed Kaidou.
What about Tamago/Niwatori?
To me, he's just Zoan, but quite a special one. Zoan changes your body's anatomy in a physical way, Paramecias changes your body but you keep your anatomy, Logia changes your body's anatomy in an elemental way.
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Btw, now that Luffy is the crapiest piece of a tire in a highway... he could just eat a Rumble Ball D:
I would love to see some Gum Awakening now. For that i need, Chopy concerned of Luffy and a reason for him to protect some shit, please Oda, go with it.
@Shobu:
I'm talking about the panel on the bottom. Actually, real Mont D'or and Amande are looking to Caesar while Big Mom and Katakuri are being reflected just as their background where they are. It is the full roof that is reflected with Brûlée's power, and both are "standing" on the place where Bege was doing security entrance… as you can see Katakuri is standind above the place where the Homie door was, and it's backwards to Caesar
I agree with Tora: only Brulee's body acts as a mirror, and it only mirrors a single individual whom her power targets. On previous panels we're able to differentiate the two because only the real Caesar carries Capone on his shoulder. Same goes for the bottom-panel: if you look closely we're seeing the scene from behind Brulee-Caesar, who doesn't hold anyone with her right arm despite being in a position to do so. She is facing the party grounds and everyone else in the panel are their real selves, not reflexions. And indeed, Mont d'Or and the Charlotte siblings have exited the party grounds to cut any chance of further escape for Caesar.
Btw, did anybody mention the cover page of chapter 420 featuring a cake with Sanji and a monkey?
@Count:
But the question of whether or not Luffy could feat an arc antagonist in East Blue was always present, at least from a reputation standpoint. Crocodile was simply the next step to break up the mold we got used to of Luffy closely winning his fights with his first full-blown loss. Luffy needed to lose to him to show how titles like Warlord mean a big deal in the Grand Line. Luffy and Zoro are still underdogs due to losing earlier in the arc of Punk Hazard and needing to step their game up. We don't know the full extent of their strength gained from the timeskip, so the implication the manga gives off is the uncertainty of whether or not they can save the day. Obviously they will, but the underdog vibe is still there. Whether it's through cheap tricks, hostages (which rarely even matter. They're more background noise that's supposed to make the protagonist hate the antagonist more and maybe set a time limit on the fight rather than those people being actual liabilities they need to watch out for in the fight), or true combat ability. We only assume Luffy could beat Doflamingo because he's a protagonist. In the scope of a story, Doflamingo was still the strongest person Luffy had ever faced yet, and Doflamingo was easily countering Gear Second and Gear Third. We didn't know whether or not Luffy had anything up his sleeve from the timeskip, that was only left up to assumption. And Doflamingo was built-up ever since Jaya, so he obviously had a lot of hype going for him.
Being an unknown pirate is still being an underdog because you don't have a clear idea of Luffy's limitations. There's no track record to go off. He's testing the waters against uncertainty every time he comes across a new person, especially when each new person has a higher bounty/level of strength. Oda only pushed that to actually losing fights and getting ring outs ever since Alabasta for more impact than blowing his load on that dynamic right away so the Grand Line seemed properly threatening. And I don't disagree that being an underdog just because you're unknown is superficial, I'm just saying what it is and how the story is trying to get us to feel if we were casual fans reading this manga without comprehension of storytelling norms. Deku is certainly more of an underdog than Luffy, I agree. I'm only talking in the scope of One Piece though.
That's a good ratio I agree with. Especially since Blackbeard gets to raise his title to Pirate King Contender
or even Pirate Kingby the end of the story.
And that is why I say we read East Blue differently. That question was never on my mind while reading the East Blue Saga. It would be interesting if someone reading the story from its inception would give their input on how they saw the East Blue Saga unfold. Regardless, I consider myself that casual fan, I don't really analyze the story like you or Greg does, where you'll analyze plot threads, character plots in a more technical way. Most of the time I find myself googling the definition of these technical words you use, and I often criticize myself for having a superficial view on some of these stories I read.
So when first reading the East Blue Saga, it was never on my mind if Luffy could beat his opponents, and that was further cemented on my mind by other aspects of the story going around it, where Oda purposefully made the protagonists weaker so there would be a challenge. The main focus of East Blue was not if Luffy could overcome, but how his crew could do so with their personal affairs on the line. It was their personal growth, while the antagonists where fluff from an opponents perspective. With Arlong, whom you could say was the first ~real~ threat, Luffy almost took out himself and Zoro had just received massive injuries against Mihawk. That's why Smoker was the first real threat in the series from my point of view. I never got that feeling that Luffy barely managed to beat any of his opponents, much less with Kuro or Don Krieg.
I don't think I would say that Luffy and Zoro being careless in Punk Hazard makes them underdogs, just careless. And I wasn't assuming that Luffy could beat Mango because of his protagonism, like I mentioned before, it was because Dressrosa is the first real island in the New World, with a worthy opponent. Many readers thought that Luffy would lose, I think there was even a poll in the Dressrosa thread in this forum. But it did not make sense to me for him to lose because up until now, he had only been using attacks he had mastered from before the timeskip like gear second and third. Yes, he had new attacks, but they were all around these two techniques, haki and his new plateau. Luffy having something up his sleeve was a necessity for the timeskip to make sense.
And the thing with bounties, is that it was quickly dismissed with Higuma the bandit. He had a big bounty, albeit the first but when you think 8 million, you don't think it is small. Fame played a bit of a role with Don Krieg, but that was only to make the Grand Line even more scary, he was obviously at the end of the line. Arlong had a bounty, but again seeing as how the crew came into the island divided and with their second strongest combatant on the verge of death, Arlong would prove to be scary but from Nami's perspective.
That's why I see Luffy donning his underdog mantle when he enters the Grandline, once Crocodile is established as a Warlord. I have a hard time buying into in story reputation and such because the characters that usually boast those things are just ignorant or naive. The most recent example would be with Jack. His minions were boasting how he was Kaidou's right hand man, but by story standards he should be the weakest of the calamities, as he was shown first. Especially considering there is one of the calamities called King and another called Queen.
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Btw, did anybody mention the cover page of chapter 420 featuring a cake with Sanji and a monkey?
Great catch, funny because: Sanji used to feed rats, the cake's lower half is destroyed, it all fits nicely with the current setting.
Oh by the way, thanks for the translation clarification back then, hope I get to keep acquiring the official translation volumes, or someday reading them in Japanese.
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I agree with Tora: only Brulee's body acts as a mirror, and it only mirrors a single individual whom her power targets. On previous panels we're able to differentiate the two because only the real Caesar carries Capone on his shoulder. Same goes for the bottom-panel: if you look closely we're seeing the scene from behind Brulee-Caesar, who doesn't hold anyone with her right arm despite being in a position to do so. She is facing the party grounds and everyone else in the panel are their real selves, not reflexions. And indeed, Mont d'Or and the Charlotte siblings have exited the party grounds to cut any chance of further escape for Caesar.
That's it!
Yes, Torao was right. It only reflects one person thus what you say about the bottom panel is right… for any combatant with physical and laser hits, Brûlée is very close to be their nemesis.
Mira powers should include mimic and voice of it's locked target, the part where at the forest, Luffy and Brûlée go to opposite directions should be included in the mimic realm of the ability and ofcourse like with Buggy, in a specified space to be near of the locked person to the user to get it into action.
This is wrong. The citizen willingly give their lifespan every 6 months. No fear involved in this process.
You guys need to stop saying stuff like "she can only do what she did so far".
All the exposition regarding Big Mom's power come from Pound or King Baum. Not the actual holder of the power.
Why do you keep assuming that we know everything about a Yonko's strength ? One that has yet to fight seriously i.e. reveal her strongest powers.At first a mirror based power sounds pretty straightforward. Yet Brulée can create clones and access an other dimension :wassat:
A power's application can't be guessed just with its name.
Be sure that a concept as subjective as "soul" will give a power with more than one or two applications.Give some room to your imagination guys.
Now am I right about BM stealing Luffy's strength ? I am not sure. But it's obvious we have yet to see the most overpowered of BM's powers.
Well i think you are wrong when it was literally told that BM'S DF doesnt work with those who dont fear her and yet still deny it? Remember this citizen are forced to do this every 6 months .not voluntarily and what makes you think none of this citizen feared their lives?
Dont deny facts just to satisfy ur. Fanfic
PS: REREAD THE CONFRONTATION SCENE OF BM AND JINBE IF YOU. HAVE FORGOT BM'S WEAKNESS. AND. NEVER WAS IT STATED
THAT SOUL=STAMINA BECAUSE NONE OF THOSE CITIZEN NOR ANYONE THAT IS STILL ALIVE AFTER BM USES HER POWER BECOMES WEAK MAYBE DEAD BUT NOT WEAK.
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Then again those rules were presented by other characters than Big Mom. Like no one knew about Doffy's clone ability, Big Mom has her little secret.
With that said I understand where you are coming from. But I am not convinced yet.
Those rules are shown not just presented how could you still deny it?
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For all those saying that Big Mom did not have an influence on Luffy's Gear 4th, then why the steamy substance from her hand with the sound effect afterward?
At no point have we ever seen the steam from Luffy's Gear 4th staying on Doflamingo or Cracker. It's just too out of place to think it's just Luffy running out of energy conveniently at that moment after just eating and sleeping before fighting.
Same steamy substance that vergo release in punk hazard it just smoke effect.
@K.:
I think that the fear aspect of Big Mom's ability is soulely related to Soul Pocus.
fixed that sentence for you.
@K.:
And that is why I say we read East Blue differently. That question was never on my mind while reading the East Blue Saga. It would be interesting if someone reading the story from its inception would give their input on how they saw the East Blue Saga unfold. Regardless, I consider myself that casual fan, I don't really analyze the story like you or Greg does, where you'll analyze plot threads, character plots in a more technical way. Most of the time I find myself googling the definition of these technical words you use, and I often criticize myself for having a superficial view on some of these stories I read.
So when first reading the East Blue Saga, it was never on my mind if Luffy could beat his opponents, and that was further cemented on my mind by other aspects of the story going around it, where Oda purposefully made the protagonists weaker so there would be a challenge. The main focus of East Blue was not if Luffy could overcome, but how his crew could do so with their personal affairs on the line. It was their personal growth, while the antagonists where fluff from an opponents perspective. With Arlong, whom you could say was the first ~real~ threat, Luffy almost took out himself and Zoro had just received massive injuries against Mihawk. That's why Smoker was the first real threat in the series from my point of view. I never got that feeling that Luffy barely managed to beat any of his opponents, much less with Kuro or Don Krieg.
I don't think I would say that Luffy and Zoro being careless in Punk Hazard makes them underdogs, just careless. And I wasn't assuming that Luffy could beat Mango because of his protagonism, like I mentioned before, it was because Dressrosa is the first real island in the New World, with a worthy opponent. Many readers thought that Luffy would lose, I think there was even a poll in the Dressrosa thread in this forum. But it did not make sense to me for him to lose because up until now, he had only been using attacks he had mastered from before the timeskip like gear second and third. Yes, he had new attacks, but they were all around these two techniques, haki and his new plateau. Luffy having something up his sleeve was a necessity for the timeskip to make sense.
And the thing with bounties, is that it was quickly dismissed with Higuma the bandit. He had a big bounty, albeit the first but when you think 8 million, you don't think it is small. Fame played a bit of a role with Don Krieg, but that was only to make the Grand Line even more scary, he was obviously at the end of the line. Arlong had a bounty, but again seeing as how the crew came into the island divided and with their second strongest combatant on the verge of death, Arlong would prove to be scary but from Nami's perspective.
That's why I see Luffy donning his underdog mantle when he enters the Grandline, once Crocodile is established as a Warlord. I have a hard time buying into in story reputation and such because the characters that usually boast those things are just ignorant or naive. The most recent example would be with Jack. His minions were boasting how he was Kaidou's right hand man, but by story standards he should be the weakest of the calamities, as he was shown first. Especially considering there is one of the calamities called King and another called Queen.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Great catch, funny because: Sanji used to feed rats, the cake's lower half is destroyed, it all fits nicely with the current setting.
Oh by the way, thanks for the translation clarification back then, hope I get to keep acquiring the official translation volumes, or someday reading them in Japanese.
That right hand man was a MS embellishment, the japanese was stated one of kaido's top fighters or something like that where it wasnt him being #2
Then again those rules were presented by other characters than Big Mom. Like no one knew about Doffy's clone ability, Big Mom has her little secret.
With that said I understand where you are coming from. But I am not convinced yet.
Dude, when I said we where presented I meant Jinbei's scene, which we saw with our own eyes, not when other characters explained the basics.
Why would Big Mom not suck his life right away for his betrayal if she could?
Can´t help it if people can not understand the simplest of things. Well, there are also some that still discuss CC being a new nakama, so that´s hardly my fault nor Oda´s fault.
Especially Oda clearly distinguishes between joke scenes and serious scenes though. If Nami hits and it hurts, it´s not because she can use Haki, it´s because it´s supposed to be a funny scene. If someone else in a fight punches Luffy and it hurts, it´s Haki.
This is the same thing, once again the fault of the audience not understanding the distinction.
Oda is not writing his story with vitality bars above his characters. That’s what you and people who are using the tiring factor are doing (then worst one can read are the Dressrosa discussions). When Oda writes a fight scene, what is important to him is the drama and the suspense the reader will feel when reading and that allows him liberty with logic. Also there will always be something like willpower or hormones that can overcome tiredness.
In this particular case having the hero tired after saying he will be pirate king and while his friends are in mortal danger sounds unrealistic and lame.
And yes there is some serious jokes. The milk one his one of them. They recovered from that drink of milk but maybe it is to illogic for you :-)
@K.:
Great catch, funny because: Sanji used to feed rats, the cake's lower half is destroyed, it all fits nicely with the current setting.
Oh by the way, thanks for the translation clarification back then, hope I get to keep acquiring the official translation volumes, or someday reading them in Japanese.
Yep, the location where the cake is eaten by the rats is where the bomb exploded, so either it was a foreshadowing or Oda remembered he drew something like that once…
Which would be weird though since several plot points (Luffy being in a cage for example) are included in the cover page, and writing an arc based on that...
No problem
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Oda is not writing his story with vitality bars above his characters. That’s what you and people who are using the tiring factor are doing (then worst one can read are the Dressrosa discussions). When Oda writes a fight scene, what is important to him is the drama and the suspense the reader will feel when reading and that allows him liberty with logic. Also there will always be something like willpower or hormones that can overcome tiredness.
In this particular case having the hero tired after saying he will be pirate king and while his friends are in mortal danger sounds unrealistic and lame.
And yes there is some serious jokes. The milk one his one of them. They recovered from that drink of milk but maybe it is to illogic for you :-)
Sure but that has always been a problem with Oda, not only in this instance, so it´s hardly anything new. Oda shapes the endurance, durability and powers of characters based on the plot requirements which makes the fight scenes significantly less tangible but this has been the case for nearly 900 chapters now, nothing new.
And yes, that was a joke scene actually, which is why it was obviously pointed out how tired they are before they even crashed the wedding.
Of course Oda will have liberties when addressing how tired his character are, and how their willpower helps them overcome it, but going as far as saying it is a non factor is also jumping to the other extreme. Whenever Luffy has pushed himself over and over, the consequences has always been him having to rest for long periods of time. It happened in Alabasta, he wasn't able to move after defeating Rob Lucci and so on.
Why would it be lame that he is tired? It is out of his control, it is far more ~unrealistic~ to have him not suffer the consequences of his previous encounters. Now I am not saying that because of his tiredness he was not able to hold gear fourth for longer, but using gear fourth in the state he was in is possible that using such a technique pushed him to a more severe state of fatigue.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Long:
That right hand man was a MS embellishment, the japanese was stated one of kaido's top fighters or something like that where it wasnt him being #2
Figured, but good to know.
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@K.:
Of course Oda will have liberties when addressing how tired his character are, and how their willpower helps them overcome it, but going as far as saying it is a non factor is also jumping to the other extreme. Whenever Luffy has pushed himself over and over, the consequences has always been him having to rest for long periods of time. It happened in Alabasta, he wasn't able to move after defeating Rob Lucci and so on.
Why would it be lame that he is tired? It is out of his control, it is far more ~unrealistic~ to have him not suffer the consequences of his previous encounters. Now I am not saying that because of his tiredness he was not able to hold gear fourth for longer, but using gear fourth in the state he was in is possible that using such a technique pushed him to a more severe state of fatigue.
I'm not saying it is a non factor, I'm saying that it is not a trustful factor. When I read people argumenting on how Luffy was not able to defeat X or Y because of his tiredness it is mostly speculation when Oda never adress the issue. If Luffy has long needed period of rest afterwards, it is also because he can ignore fatigue for very long time thanks to his willpower. During his fight with Lucci, the fact that he was tired was emphasised by the author in order to allow a very moving scene with Usopp getting rid of Sogeking mask. During Impel Down and the war, he begged Ivankov to get rid of his fatigue. Those were highly dramatic scenes when there was nothing of that sort in last chapter.
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Sure but that has always been a problem with Oda, not only in this instance, so it´s hardly anything new. Oda shapes the endurance, durability and powers of characters based on the plot requirements which makes the fight scenes significantly less tangible but this has been the case for nearly 900 chapters now, nothing new.
And yes, that was a joke scene actually, which is why it was obviously pointed out how tired they are before they even crashed the wedding.
Or it was a scene which shows how they were able to recover from their previous fights and be ready for the tea party
The way things are going, I'm still hoping for a SH+allies vs Kaidou+BigMom (as they probably will escape and BigMom will chase them). And possibly Zoro defeating Kaidou while Luffy defeats BigMom. But I agree that they need a big power-up because right now they are not close to being able to do it.
I'm not saying it is a non factor, I'm saying that it is not a trustful factor. When I read people argumenting on how Luffy was not able to defeat X or Y because of his tiredness it is mostly speculation when Oda never adress the issue. If Luffy has long needed period of rest afterwards, it is also because he can ignore fatigue for very long time thanks to his willpower. During his fight with Lucci, the fact that he was tired was emphasised by the author in order to allow a very moving scene with Usopp getting rid of Sogeking mask. During Impel Down and the war, he begged Ivankov to get rid of his fatigue. Those were highly dramatic scenes when there was nothing of that sort in last chapter.
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Or it was a scene which shows how they were able to recover from their previous fights and be ready for the tea party
Not if you look at the context with them oversleeping and knowing Luffy usually needs days to recover.
Luffy manages to stay in the fight, like you said, due to his willpower, he sets himself a goal and until he achieves that goal, he does not rest.
In WCI, his goal was, get to Sanji, convince him to get back, he siad until then i will not fall down. Guess what, he had already managed to do that, everything else is in addition to that and you can see that Luffy did not even manage to stay awake even before seeing Sanji a second time because he was that tired and fatigued.
Just look at the visual representation of Luffy´s fatigue at the end of Dressrosa and how Sanji found him, Oda could not even make it more obvious than that. The fact that he does not additionally slap us with mentioning it over and over again is because it is not necessary.
The way things are going, I'm still hoping for a SH+allies vs Kaidou+BigMom (as they probably will escape and BigMom will chase them). And possibly Zoro defeating Kaidou while Luffy defeats BigMom. But I agree that they need a big power-up because right now they are not close to being able to do it.
Why the hell would 2 emperors ally with each other? It's more likely to get them to fight one another and have the alliance pick up the spoils. And we've seen how this Straw Hat + Firetank Alliance fared against an emperor's crew. Absolute disaster. And you think that the guy who's been built up since Punk Hazard as needing this gigantic alliance to take down, one of the top 4 pirates in the world, the major looming threat after the timeskip is going to be taken down by Zoro? Just why? Where did that come from? How do you even come up with something like that from the build up we're given?
Regarding the whole Luffy G4 thing, it is certainly possible that Luffy either exhausted his strength by clashing with an Emperor, or that Big Mom somehow affected him. The problem- and the reason that this is a discussion in this thread- is that even if those two scenarios are true, they are conveyed very poorly. There is literally no transition from "Full Power Luffy clash with Big Mom" to "completely spent Luffy being dragged off by Sanji". It is jarring, and so its no surprise people are wondering what the hell happened. It is not a statement on the power of Luffy or Big Mom as much as it is just sloppy corner-cutting.
You are completely right. It saddens me that when this kind of debate appears, each side think that the other is lacking intelligence, sanity or comprehension of the manga.
When a debates appears, sometimes it is just because Oda's work is indeed subject to debate. And two interpretations are actually possible.
It reminds me about the middle left panel of this page.
Gee so many people were laughed at for their comprehension of Oda's art or story telling, whether they said it was Doffy or Corazon.
That's not a healthy way to debate 
Pretty much, on my first read it felt there was a panel missing.
I think that upper right panel is real reason why he had to die this chapter lol
Hmm, quite a few fights this arc felt as if one or two panels were missing.
Regarding Luffy vs. Big Mom, I really expected Big Mom to show off way more when the two finally seriously clashed. Like, that we finally get a real impression about what it means to be a Yonkou. Well, of course this arc isn't over yet, luckily…
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Hmm, quite a few fights this arc felt as if one or two panels were missing.
Regarding Luffy vs. Big Mom, I really expected Big Mom to show off way more when the two finally seriously clashed. Like, that we finally get a real impression about what it means to be a Yonkou. Well, of course this arc isn't over yet, luckily…
Don't you think her lack of trying and dealing with g4 Luffy like it's a joke a statement in itself? I'd be disappointed if she had to even slightly exert herself.
Year of Sanji, let's go!
Comparisons! Luckily not too much dialogue this week, which made this go quicker:
" after it in both versions that MS left out.Thanks BelisarioFaith:happy:
Can you tell us the Viz version of Big Mom's quote on Kaido please?
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Don't you think her lack of trying and dealing with g4 Luffy like it's a joke a statement in itself? I'd be disappointed if she had to even slightly exert herself.
Gear 4 was not treated like a joke.
Look at the panels before, big moms reaction. Then look at Luffy's not affected in the slightest face when he tells bm hes gonna take her down.
Luffy may have fought against cracker for 11 hours but crackers ability allowed him to spam create hundreds of biscuit soldiers which held Luffy back.
Remember cracker had no counter to the kong gun. He literally came on top in the clashes and destroyed his armour and shield in one punch. He was also destroying all the biscuits with kong organ.
Thanks BelisarioFaith:happy:
Can you tell us the Viz version of Big Mom's quote on Kaido please?
Sure. She says, "Kaido?! Maaa ma ma ma…oh, that's not gonna happen. You'll never beat that thing…"
Hidden:
Sure. She says, "Kaido?! Maaa ma ma ma…oh, that's not gonna happen. You'll never beat that thing…"
Thanks a lot:happy:
I also wonder about the sfx of Big Mom after the clash with Luffy: MS says "bzzzt" like to electricity and JB says "prickle" to simply move the hand. And in some forums is quite the rage, because the theory of Mom responsible for weaken Luffy.
Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it. Even if something can be known about it,
knowledge about it can't be communicated to others. Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood.
