Viola only really had two option to chose from 10 years ago:
a)Chose not to serve Doflamingo which would result in her entire family death.
b)Forced to serve Doflamingo to save her family while waiting for an opportunity to overthrow him.
Since she chose b, she is apparently a bad person??
Having justification for your actions does not make them good. Especially if you have fully functional justice system that would hit those people like a ton of bricks if only they were provided with evidence.
Too bad there's no such system in One Piece.
No see shades of grey don't exist and the world is neatly divided into people who only do bad things and people who only do good things.
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This is usually the point in the threads where it becomes incredibly clear that no matter how polite Darth is, he is still an absolute shithead about things.
I'd love to see Darth butting heads against Zephos, that would fill in this week's chapter void :) someone should summon him here :ninja:
a simple quote of the two should do it
Zephos don't even mind… And I understand why
Yeah, but it'd be fun 
@Cyan:
No see shades of grey don't exist and the world is neatly divided into people who only do bad things and people who only do good things.
Obvious sarcasm aside, if the said shades do exists, and they do, why do you keep labeling people as good and evil? Hell, you are even labeling whole concepts as evil, example being authoritarian goverments.
For some reason everyone here feels the need to assign those labels. "Those people are good, and those are evil", they will say, not realizing how bad such labeling is.
So yeah, shades of grey, very nice. Precisesly why Violet isn't good. Would I say she is evil? No, mostly because what is evil is debateable, but she sure as hell isn't good.
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Yeah, but it'd be fun
For you, maybe. Half of the time he adresses me in direct manner, he is downright offensive.
And he makes eristic arguments. Which I dislike.
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Too bad there's no such system in One Piece.
Sigh… really? Really now?
I mean you are right. There is no fully functional justice system in the world of One Piece. You know why?
Because no-one ever reports shit.
Why is it that people, in both real life and fiction, always expect law enforcers to be omniscient and omnipotent?
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@Light:
We still don't know everything about Doffy's connection to Government tough. If Viola tried to tattle to the Marines she probably would've just gotten Dold and Rebecca killed.
And on the other hand, we have people that believe in near omnipotence of Doffy's connections.
One wonder why does he need his shichibukai title at all, if that is the case.
Or for that matter, why does he toyified all those goverment agents and marines.
Or why upper echelons of navy on the scene don't care, completly. Yes, Fujitora included, because his justification isn't law, or Doffy's connections, but his personal beliefs, as weird as they may be.
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Oversimplify what? Oda tends to be very clear and simple about which characters we are meant to sympathize with.
See, that's what I mean by oversimplifying it. Those logical leaps you make. Characters are meant to sympathize with = They moraly good people kind of thing.
I can sympathize with Viola. She is still a terrible person, in my opinion. She is not downright evil, but good? Nope. Not with the amount of evil she did help to accomplish.
For you, maybe. Half of the time he adresses me in direct manner, he is downright offensive.
And he makes eristic arguments. Which I dislike.
What? did it already happen? how did I miss that? what thread(s)?
What? did it already happen? how did I miss that? what thread(s)?
Eristic arguments, or him being offensive?
For the former, check practicaly any post he ever written.
For the latter, I do not recall the thread (I did not commited it to my memory and search function fails me), but he got warning from moderation for it, if memory serves right.
And his manner of doing discussions is… annoying to me personaly. I find his mocking style tiresome, even if he does have merits sometimes.
And on the other hand, we have people that believe in near omnipotence of Doffy's connections.
One wonder why does he need his shichibukai title at all, if that is the case.
Or for that matter, why does he toyified all those goverment agents and marines.
Or why upper echelons of navy on the scene don't care, completly. Yes, Fujitora included, because his justification isn't law, or Doffy's connections, but his personal beliefs, as weird as they may be.
And we still don't know much anything about his connections. Either way I seriously doubt that Viola wouldn't have informed Marines of Doffy's activities if she was sure she could get her family away with it. Getting some proof isn't always guaranteed to get crime bosses to jail in real life either, but it might give you some nice cement boots. It's all about bribing, scaring and eliminating witnesses and officials.
@Light:
And we still don't know much anything about his connections. Either way I seriously doubt that Viola wouldn't have informed Marines of Doffy's activities if she was sure she could get her family away with it. Getting some proof isn't always guaranteed to get crime bosses to jail in real life either, but it might give you some nice cement boots. It's all about bribing, scaring and eliminating witnesses and officials.
That would be correct if not for one thing.
She decided to betray Doflamingo on basicaly a whim, because Sanji understood her tears or something. She had no guarantee of anything whatsoever, and in fact knew that for all intent and purpoeses their plan was fucked.
I hardly see how, in universe, getting the proof to the marines is any less good plan then hoping Straw Hats and Law will make miraculous comeback.
That would be correct if not for one thing.
She decided to betray Doflamingo on basicaly a whim, because Sanji understood her tears or something. She had no guarantee of anything whatsoever, and in fact knew that for all intent and purpoeses their plan was fucked.
I hardly see how, in universe, getting the proof to the marines is any less good plan then hoping Straw Hats and Law will make miraculous comeback.
Yeah I admit that relying on some random pirate who "never doubts lady's tears" was rather… odd solution. But it gets the plot flowing so let's just deal with it.
That would be correct if not for one thing.
She decided to betray Doflamingo on basicaly a whim, because Sanji understood her tears or something. She had no guarantee of anything whatsoever, and in fact knew that for all intent and purpoeses their plan was fucked.
I hardly see how, in universe, getting the proof to the marines is any less good plan then hoping Straw Hats and Law will make miraculous comeback.
She had hopes for Kaido. She saw what's on Sanji's mind after all. Just by losing CC Joker is fucked for good and all he could do is stall for time with the limited amount of SAD matter that's left in the factory. The worst thing you could do is to stay in one place when a Yonko is after your ass.
That would be correct if not for one thing.
She decided to betray Doflamingo on basicaly a whim, because Sanji understood her tears or something. She had no guarantee of anything whatsoever, and in fact knew that for all intent and purpoeses their plan was fucked.
I hardly see how, in universe, getting the proof to the marines is any less good plan then hoping Straw Hats and Law will make miraculous comeback.
@Light:
Yeah I admit that relying on some random pirate who "never doubts lady's tears" was rather… odd solution. But it gets the plot flowing so let's just deal with it.
A whim ? An odd solution ? It's called LOVE
!
She had hopes for Kaido. She saw what's on Sanji's mind after all. Just by losing CC Joker is fucked for good and all he could do is stall for time with the limited amount of SAD matter that's left in the factory. The worst thing you could do is to stay in one place when a Yonko is after your ass.
Eh, she didn't. She tried to, but all Sanji was thinking was his usual pink pervert thoughts.
And even if she did, what guarantee she has that Doffy won't get Ceasar back?
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@Light:
Yeah I admit that relying on some random pirate who "never doubts lady's tears" was rather… odd solution. But it gets the plot flowing so let's just deal with it.
Sorry, it's one of those things that bug me. And make the arc less enjoyable as the result.
And even if she did, what guarantee she has that Doffy won't get Ceasar back?
She had to either believe in them or continue to be Doffy's underling for life. She chose to believe.
She had to either believe in them or continue to be Doffy's underling for life. She chose to believe.
Why them though? Why believe in them at all? She knew nothing about them, nothing about their plan, literaly she had no guarantee.
She bet her live, lives of the people she was blackmailed with (who are only alive because Doffy doesn't keep his promises), and if you are going to argue that it was the best opportunity in the last ten years that she had, I'm going to honestly laugh.
Why them though? Why believe in them at all? She knew nothing about them, nothing about their plan, literaly she had no guarantee.
She bet her live, lives of the people she was blackmailed with (who are only alive because Doffy doesn't keep his promises), and if you are going to argue that it was the best opportunity in the last ten years that she had, I'm going to honestly laugh.
She saw how Sanji and Crew bet their lives on Luffy, so she followed the suit:ninja: She also saw that they truly mean it, unlike the others.
She saw how Sanji and Crew bet their lives on Luffy, so she followed the suit:ninja: She also saw that they truly mean it, unlike the others.
She saw bloody nothing. And at that time Luffy was busy with Mera Mera and had little intentions of fighting Mingo.
And the main argument as to why she served Doflamingo is because he blackmailed her with the lives of her family. Family that is alive only because our friendly neighborhood shichibukai doesn't act on his supposed cruelty in favor of gloating.
Why them though? Why believe in them at all? She knew nothing about them, nothing about their plan, literaly she had no guarantee.
Pretty sure she was watching them the day before, at least according to what Gladius says:
!
She also knew all along about S.O.P.
And LOVE
And Sabo:ninja:
16char
She saw bloody nothing. And at that time Luffy was busy with Mera Mera and had little intentions of fighting Mingo.
And the main argument as to why she served Doflamingo is because he blackmailed her with the lives of her family. Family that is alive only because our friendly neighborhood shichibukai doesn't act on his supposed cruelty in favor of gloating.
She saw that Sanji truly cared about her and that the SHs and Law are going against Doflamingo (if that is nothing….). And Luffy said he would kick Doflamingo's ass a bunch of chapters before that (chapter 700 IIRC), and we all know that what Luffy says he actually does.
And her family is alive only because she made an exchange with Doflamingo, she would help him with her DF ability which he wanted (because it is a really useful ability to gather information) and he would in return spare the lives of her family...
It's been ten years Darth, after 8 years the entire Cocoyashi village was ready for their last stand.
And Viola didn't give her life away like they did, she bet that Monkey-Chan and Traw-Yaro would defeat Doffy(or bring Kaido to the party).
It's not completely desesperate.
And LOVE
And Sabo…Wait what ?
Why them though? Why believe in them at all? She knew nothing about them, nothing about their plan, literaly she had no guarantee.
She bet her live, lives of the people she was blackmailed with (who are only alive because Doffy doesn't keep his promises), and if you are going to argue that it was the best opportunity in the last ten years that she had, I'm going to honestly laugh.
So, before Luffy came alone, what other opportunity does she have to overthrow Doflamingo?
Next thing we know we'll be analyzing why every uprising, resistance or takeover just so happens on the day the Straw Hats arrive.
_"_Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!" - Auron
Who wouldn't enjoy SH coming to every island day after the villain is beaten.
Ganfall: Boy you guys missed quite an event. Just yesterday we managed to defeat a god after a huge battle. It was tottaly crazy. Want some pumpkin juice?
In Dressrosa's case it was the SHs coming to Dressrosa trigger the uprising though. Doffy planned a tournament and faked his retirement which gave hope to Tontattas. I don't actually remember if it was the Doffy's fake actions motivated the Tontattas but Dressrosa's build up was fine.
The rebellion in Alabasta was well underway by the time the Strawhats got there. We were hearing about its continuous escalation in the preceding arcs too.
Similarly with the Shandians' guerilla war with the priests.
And in a bunch of arcs, the Strawhats' arrival is clearly the provocation for events to unfold.
That would be correct if not for one thing.
She decided to betray Doflamingo on basicaly a whim, because Sanji understood her tears or something. She had no guarantee of anything whatsoever, and in fact knew that for all intent and purpoeses their plan was fucked.
I hardly see how, in universe, getting the proof to the marines is any less good plan then hoping Straw Hats and Law will make miraculous comeback.
No, she didn't. Gladius confirmed that she was up to something a day before.
Obvious sarcasm aside, if the said shades do exists, and they do, why do you keep labeling people as good and evil? Hell, you are even labeling whole concepts as evil, example being authoritarian goverments.
For some reason everyone here feels the need to assign those labels. "Those people are good, and those are evil", they will say, not realizing how bad such labeling is.
So yeah, shades of grey, very nice. Precisesly why Violet isn't good. Would I say she is evil? No, mostly because what is evil is debateable, but she sure as hell isn't good.
Dude, I can't believe you started this whole thing just because I used the word "evil".
Viola is not a bad person just because she was helping Doula Mongo against her will.
I mean you are right. There is no fully functional justice system in the world of One Piece. You know why?
Because no-one ever reports shit.
Why is it that people, in both real life and fiction, always expect law enforcers to be omniscient and omnipotent?
I also don't understand what the justice system has to do with this talk.
See, that's what I mean by oversimplifying it. Those logical leaps you make. Characters are meant to sympathize with = They moraly good people kind of thing.
I can sympathize with Viola. She is still a terrible person, in my opinion. She is not downright evil, but good? Nope. Not with the amount of evil she did help to accomplish.
Nami, Robin and Vivi were all helping guys like Arlong and Crocodile. Are you seriously going to judge them from those moments instead of the overall picture?
Because so far, you've only come with subordinate surprise as an argument. Again, do you even know what loyal means?
Who wouldn't enjoy SH coming to every island day after the villain is beaten.
Ganfall: Boy you guys missed quite an event. Just yesterday we managed to defeat a god after a huge battle. It was tottaly crazy. Want some pumpkin juice?
I wonder if that's what he said to Bellamy.
Shololololo! And Bellamy still has his free whistle.
Right when Cavendish needed a new horse.
No, she didn't. Gladius confirmed that she was up to something a day before.
Dude, I can't believe you started this whole thing just because I used the word "evil".
Viola is not a bad person just because she was helping Doula Mongo against her will.
I also don't understand what the justice system has to do with this talk.
Nami, Robin and Vivi were all helping guys like Arlong and Crocodile. Are you seriously going to judge them from those moments instead of the overall picture?
Because so far, you've only come with subordinate surprise as an argument. Again, do you even know what loyal means?
I would separate Nami and Vivi from Robin and Violet. They first two worked for the bad guy to get what they needed to help their people while the others simply helped the bad guy.
Cnet released his translation of chapter 756. http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/40253
Next thing we know we'll be analyzing why every uprising, resistance or takeover just so happens on the day the Straw Hats arrive.
Ussop's home was a coincidence.
With Baratie Luffy was going to be forced to stay working for Zeff. It's a convenient Don Krieg arrived early. Baratie was by nature a focal point. Oda could have written they stayed there a month.
Wapol had been forced off Drum Island by Teach. I can't quite remember but didn't encountering the Strawhats help him find his way back?
In Water 7 the CP9 infiltration is well under way. Moving against Iceberg would have drawn Franky in anyway. CP9 going after Robin just made sure the Strawhats were central.
Kuma's dispersal off the Strawhats seemed to deliberately throw them at trouble spots.
Ussop's home was a coincidence.
With Baratie Luffy was going to be forced to stay working for Zeff. It's a convenient Don Krieg arrived early. Baratie was by nature a focal point. Oda could have written they stayed there a month.
Wapol had been forced off Drum Island by Teach. I can't quite remember but didn't encountering the Strawhats help him find his way back?
In Water 7 the CP9 infiltration is well under way. Moving against Iceberg would have drawn Franky in anyway. CP9 going after Robin just made sure the Strawhats were central.
Kuma's dispersal off the Strawhats seemed to deliberately throw them at trouble spots.
Not sure there's a point in rationalizing the flow of events here. Every arc is orchestrated in a way that makes SH have a crucial role in a big event.
At least so far, Oda hasn't been too repetitive.
I would separate Nami and Vivi from Robin and Violet. They first two worked for the bad guy to get what they needed to help their people while the others simply helped the bad guy.
Viola worked for Doflamingo to keep her father safe; that seems more in-line with what Nami did than what Robin did. Much like with Arlong, there was a hostage situation. I can see why you'd draw the parallel between Nami and Vivi, but then that just makes Robin seem like the outlier to me.
All the Posts in this thread suck so far, including the ones I have made earlier. People keep talking about stupid things, like all of the Dressrosa arc, and random stuff. We need to talk about the most important thing that people seem to keep forgetting, the cover story, or more importantly, what seems to be the making of Guardians of the Ocean!
Arnold Schwarzenegger is Jimbei, a Fishmen that doesn't take crap from anybody. His life has been ruined by the WG by killing his brother Fisher Tiger and his hero Whitebeard. With the help of Cop Dog Fish, played by Sylvester Stallone, and Crying Cat Fish, played by famous voice actor #234, they set their sights on protecting the poor citizens of the ocean. They must retrieve The Cute Object, which is wanted by Akainu and Perona the Item Collector of Cute Things. After collecting the cute thing, Jewelry Bonney tries to steal it, because she wishes to betray Kizaru, which in turn will betray Akainu. Oars the Third has a vendetta against Akainu for certain reasons and joins the team to fight against him. Will this team be able to protect the ocean floor? Find out on a Cover Story coming near you!
Not sure there's a point in rationalizing the flow of events here. Every arc is orchestrated in a way that makes SH have a crucial role in a big event.
At least so far, Oda hasn't been too repetitive.
Well exactly. The point is events don't coincidentally kick-off when the Strawhats arrive. Sometimes they're the crystallization for things already happening but Oda weaves some thought into it.
Mumbles something about Detective Conan
well sometimes the culprit wants to get caught and sometimes they want to prove they are better than mouri but yes it gets ridiculous over time
I would separate Nami and Vivi from Robin and Violet. They first two worked for the bad guy to get what they needed to help their people while the others simply helped the bad guy.
You could argue that they all did that tbh.
What we need is an arc where there's a villain being a douche and before the Strawhats get there he's overthrown and the day is all good and won and shit but then like just as they're about to leave it turns out the guy who overthrew the villain is in fact a villain themselves and an even bigger douche but was trying to sweeten up the place for the first few days before 'BAM MOTHERFUCKERS THIS IS MY SHIT' and yeah.
Imagine if they were sailing away and that happened they'd be like 'are ya fakkin kedden m8'
Mumbles something about Detective Conan
Well, I would actually call that a Detective's Convenience.
To be fair, it's not limited to Detective Conan, the series and even Conan himself.
Who wouldn't enjoy SH coming to every island day after the villain is beaten.
Ganfall: Boy you guys missed quite an event. Just yesterday we managed to defeat a god after a huge battle. It was tottaly crazy. Want some pumpkin juice?
I would actually love this idea if it was a different group of pirates always behind the SHs and hearing about them. Maybe similar to Bartolomeo but not as a fan.
I wouldn't mind even if it's filler.
It's true that Viola was a Doffy family executive, but Vivi was in the exact same position. Working under a Shichibukai but with no real loyalty, doing it for personal reasons. After all, Vivi was willing to help Mr. 9 kill both Crocus and Laboon, as well as the Straw Hats when they first arrived at Whiskey Peak. Considering Igara(ppoi)m was the mayor of WP, I'm sure both of them had a hand in creating some of those graves on cactus mountain, maybe some of them were innocent (relatively) pirates? Nami, Mr. 2, and Robin probably all did some questionable things before they became good guys as well. And Franky was a villain at the start of Water 7, beating up Usopp and fighting against Luffy, to the point where Luffy was still pissed off at him by the time Enies Lobby rolled around. But when all of these characters become good guys, whatever they may have done in the past gets overwritten.
Also, King Cannon was right on the money before. Oda clearly shows us who we're supposed to like and who we're supposed to hate. It's quite possible that Kaku and Lucci did quite a bit of good work in Water 7 as honest Shipwrights. They may have saved people from pirate attacks, (or like how Lucci got their money back from Paulie) or whatever. I mean the people of Water 7 clearly loved the Dock 1 Shipwrights, after all. But all of that doesn't matter anymore the moment they become villains. No matter what Viola my have done as a Doffy family executive, she's shown in a sympathetic light. I don't care for her too much, but like he usually does Oda makes it clear we're supposed to think of her as a "good guy".
Viola worked for Doflamingo to keep her father safe; that seems more in-line with what Nami did than what Robin did. Much like with Arlong, there was a hostage situation. I can see why you'd draw the parallel between Nami and Vivi, but then that just makes Robin seem like the outlier to me.
Because Namiwas working for Arlong to liberate her village. She didn't plan on staying from the get go and serving arlong is to archieve her goal same as vivi.
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You could argue that they all did that tbh.
I meant people as hometown rather than simply their closed ones.
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Mumbles something about Detective Conan
At some point, I would start wondering if the detective isn't a serial killer. It's like someone as to drop dead everywhere he goes. If this murder wasn't his job I would advise him getting rid of the kid.
Pah. I just hate protagonist centered morality. For example, I'm well aware that in fight between Luffy and Hannyabal I'm suppose to root for Luffy, because he is trying to save his brother and all that crap.
Still rooted for Hannyabal.
And the fact that you guys say "She wasn't really loyal to him, so it's okay" and "She was blackmailed, so it's okay", sends chills down my spine.
And the fact that you guys say "She wasn't really loyal to him, so it's okay" and "She was blackmailed, so it's okay", sends chills down my spine.
This is hilarious coming from you.
"He killed all those Ohara people, but it was to prevent a certain person from escaping, so it's okay (even though this person ended up escaping anyway)".
"The Marines are killing all those pregnant women and babies, but it is to prevent the son of a dangerous criminal from being born, so it's okay".
What matters is that Viola has never been shown doing something truly horrible and has been portrayed in a positive light pretty much for the majority of her time. The villain reveal itself doesn't even last an entire chapter. That's more than I can say for Robin or even Vivi.
all credits to benjamminbrown
