@Tamiel:
And why is one's name taboo? From my quick search ot seemed to be reserved for emperors and to avoid disrespect. Why is Law's name a taboo?
It's not limited to that. It stems from a Buddhist belief that if someone uses your true name, they will be able to influence your fate. Hence, why it's revealed only post humously (historically).
Some modern Japanese probably still follow the custom but don't believe in the fate control thing, so kids will share their names and stuff.
FC(3DS) - 2724-4238-5489 (LZTan)
FC(Switch) - SW-3434-4042-7728 (Jin)
@Bond:
It's not limited to that. It stems from a Buddhist belief that if someone uses your true name, they will be able to influence your fate. Hence, why it's revealed only post humously (historically).
Some modern Japanese probably still follow the custom but don't believe in the fate control thing, so kids will share their names and stuff.
Really interesting, thanks for the clear up. So it could be the fate thing, or Law's family could come from royalty(ugh hope not, I know One Piece is filled with them, but i hope no one else is from royalty, at least from the main cast.)
@Tamiel:
Really interesting, thanks for the clear up. So it could be the fate thing, or Law's family could come from royalty(ugh hope not, I know One Piece is filled with them, but i hope no one else is from royalty, at least from the main cast.)
Indeed, I wouldn't want Law to be royalty either. His story is pretty much all cleared up by this point.
FC(3DS) - 2724-4238-5489 (LZTan)
FC(Switch) - SW-3434-4042-7728 (Jin)
Hahaha, yeah a few people brought that up when Rayleigh blocked that light kick. I think it was deliberate by Oda.
Hey see if you can get your name changed, make it Donal D. Trump!
Well, there was a reason why he is know as Dark King.
Do you think that Gold Roger got his Straw Hat from somebody else?
I noticed this:
!
And even though I don't believe Luffy's straw hat is 400 years old, it's what gave me the idea of someone having the straw hat before Roger, and passed it along, just like Roger to Shanks and Shanks to Luffy.
I had never noticed that Laboon swallowing the crew, and then Luffy going inside his body right after they crossed Reverse mountain could be a reference to the "Belly of the Whale" step described in Campbell's mono-myth.
He leaves East Blue to enter a "new world", Grand Line.
(credits go to: http://volonte-d.com/etudes/etude8.php)
I had never noticed that Laboon swallowing the crew, and then Luffy going inside his body right after they crossed Reverse mountain could be a reference to the "Belly of the Whale" step described in Campbell's mono-myth.
He leaves East Blue to enter a "new world", Grand Line.
(credits go to: http://volonte-d.com/etudes/etude8.php)
I doubt Oda's read that specific book, he doesn't come off as a studied Hero's journey scholar so much as someone accustomed to the associated cliches through experience of reading and watching a shitload of movies and comics.
One Piece is a hero's journey story, but it's not one that really follows the Campbell model much at all. The Campbell model assumes an everyman (at the start) hero. So a desert farmboy like Luke Skywalker, or some quiet neighborhood bachelor like Bilbo or Frodo. Luffy was never depicted as a reluctant normal person, he sort of seemed like just an average boy in chapter one, but there was like completely ZERO attachment to the peaceful hometown.
Also…
-No refusal of the call, at best a delay to leaving until he's grown as suggested by the mentor figure. And even then there's not really even a call to the quest, the hero has already made up their mind to make the quest on their own for their own reasons.
-The "first threshold" suggests leaving the peaceful starting zone, which in actual Campbell meaning is literally a safe place where little to no adventure stuff can happened. So Luke leaving the farm, Bilbo and Frodo leaving the Shire etc. So suggesting that crossing the Red Line is the first threshhold for Luffy is....really hard to defend. By that point Luffy had fought a bunch of death battles in a variety of adventures and risky situations. The Grand Line is a major leap in danger, but the dangerous outside world is already being traveled in.
And I gotta come back to that everyman thing, the whole Campbell model really HAS to have an everyman. We have to watch some Joe Schmo nobody who could be anybody, transform from a wimpy rookie...into a wise badass.
And this just does not apply at all to Luffy. He was a super driven fire cracker from the start, we saw him being more vulnerable in the Ace/Sabo flashback sure, but that's the extent of it. And of course the everyman hero is a hero who we travel AS, we embody them because they're relatable people who we "get" and understand the background of.
Luffy is a mysterious simpleton of enormous drive, whose past we keep learning more about, past that he KNOWS that we had no clue about. And a character who has never once received any internal monologue.
We are in the adventure WITH Luffy, not ever AS Luffy.
You'll see how Usopp's storyline in the Kuro arc (and hell in some ways thus far his whole storyline) actually fits Campbell's model much better.
tldr: I don't think Oda based Laboon off that, and it's just a rendition of your classic Jonah and Pinocchio scenarios.
So someone finally rationalized somewhat pell survivng in a one piece logic kind of way. That doesnt try to use haki. In a better way than I have previously seen.
/u/soledsnak here is my explanation for why the bomb IS survivable by Pell, in-universe.
Ok, so plot wise it can be viewed as lame that Pell survived the blast, as it does make his sacrifice seem less. Though it can be assumed he expected to die, so that makes up for it a bit.
Here is the in-universe explanation why it isn't bullshit that he survived the blast, that draws from the manga directly.
First off, IRL falcons can reach top speeds of 320 km/h (200 mph) when diving. This is One Piece, where shit is faster, so lets conservatively estimate 250 mph. Again, this is One Piece, so a Zoan falcon could be way faster, but let's go with 250 mph.
Secondly, Zoan fruits give the users absurd levels of physical endurance. Zoans are naturally tanky as hell. Sure, Pell was crippled by Nico Robins hax powers, but his endurance can be assured to be VERY high level. Humans in the OP world, base humans are already very tanky (look at Usopp taking a 5 ton bat to the face and walking it off to go search for the bomb). So Zoans are on a whole new level.
So here's what happened:
- Pell flew up 5km+ to clear the blast radius from the ground.
- Pell then tosses the bomb even higher into the air. With the natural strength of Alabasta's strongest warrior combined with Zoan strength, Pell is able to slingshot the bomb up quite higher.
- (IMPORTANT: in the manga, we DO NOT SEE THE BOMB EXPLODE WHILE IN PELL'S TALONS. We see it at the couple of seconds mark with him holding it, then at the zero second mark (just the bomb in frame). Then on a different panel we see the explosion. Off panel, enough time for Pell to throw it up and dive is available. I have done the calculations on the diving speed elsewhere (complete with manga panel support) but can't find my old comment on it. But Pell IS fast enough to pull this off.)
- At the same time as tossing the bomb up, he starts diving down at 250mph.
- Pell doesn't clear the blast radius.
- But what Pell does is ride the shockwave down.
- What actually injures Pell is being slammed into the desert sand by the shockwave.
- This being the OP universe with already tanky base humans, and with Pell's Zoan endurance and decades of training, Pell survives but is extremely injured and requires bedrest.
- This being the OP universe, where people can basically sleep of anything, Pell is then on his feet after a few days/a week of rest.
So, that's the reason why Pell COULD have survived the bomb blast.
Plotwise, it's ok to think it lame he survived.
But in-universe, it is entirely consistent that he could and did.
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
How did the WG and marines find dragon hideout. Could kuzan still be working for them?
I know more about One Piece than you FACT.
How did the WG and marines find dragon hideout. Could kuzan still be working for them?
The World Government seems to be quite knowledgeable on the movements of the Yonko, so when Blackbeard went to wreck the place they probably traced him to there.
@Monkey:
I doubt Oda's read that specific book, he doesn't come off as a studied Hero's journey scholar so much as someone accustomed to the associated cliches through experience of reading and watching a shitload of movies and comics.
One Piece is a hero's journey story, but it's not one that really follows the Campbell model much at all. The Campbell model assumes an everyman (at the start) hero.
No, it doesn't follow it, but I believe there are parts of the story we could match with specific steps of Campbell's models.
These steps being: "crossing first threshold"; "belly of the whale"; "atonement with father (= training with Rayleigh)"; "the ultimate boon(? (him being pirate king)); "freedom to live(? what happens after he becomes pirate king)"
Interrogation signs for events that could happen in the future.
It's probably due to the fact that this is an adventure manga in which we follow the quest of a hero, more than Oda being inspired by Campbell directly. Yet I find the Laboon "arc" curious, as it really resembles the "Belly of the whale" step and happens… inside the belly of a whale. There aren't much coincidences (if not at all) in the plot of a fictional story. I don't think this was either.
@Monkey:
-The "first threshold" suggests leaving the peaceful starting zone, which in actual Campbell meaning is literally a safe place where little to no adventure stuff can happened. So Luke leaving the farm, Bilbo and Frodo leaving the Shire etc. So suggesting that crossing the Red Line is the first threshhold for Luffy is….really hard to defend. By that point Luffy had fought a bunch of death battles in a variety of adventures and risky situations. The Grand Line is a major leap in danger, but the dangerous outside world is already being traveled in.
The first threshold would correspond to him leaving Foosha village for the very first time, aged 17.
He leaves a peaceful village to sail on a sea he doesn't yet know. It's also the beginning of his long adventure.
@Monkey:
And I gotta come back to that everyman thing, the whole Campbell model really HAS to have an everyman. We have to watch some Joe Schmo nobody who could be anybody, transform from a wimpy rookie…into a wise badass.
And this just does not apply at all to Luffy. He was a super driven fire cracker from the start, we saw him being more vulnerable in the Ace/Sabo flashback sure, but that's the extent of it. And of course the everyman hero is a hero who we travel AS, we embody them because they're relatable people who we "get" and understand the background of.
Luffy is a mysterious simpleton of enormous drive, whose past we keep learning more about, past that he KNOWS that we had no clue about. And a character who has never once received any internal monologue.
We are in the adventure WITH Luffy, not ever AS Luffy.
I'll have to agree on some parts of this - however I do not think his care-free personality changes the fact that he was just an unknown child setting out on an adventure at the beginning of the story.
I don't understand the distinction you make between him and Luke/Bilbo/Ishmael (Moby Dick), characters that indisputably follow this model.
Is it because we can't relate to Luffy as much as we do to these characters due to him being "surhuman"? Luke Skywalker mastered the force; he was surhuman in a way, having a greater potential than most humans.
Or is it that Luffy is more "special" in a way? If yes, in which way?
@Monkey:
And of course the everyman hero is a hero who we travel AS, we embody them because they're relatable people who we "get" and understand the background of.
Luke Skywalker's background was explained in greater depth later on in the story, with Vader revealing that he was his father. It's like Luffy, in a way; we don't get to know his whole background from the start.
@Monkey:
You'll see how Usopp's storyline in the Kuro arc (and hell in some ways thus far his whole storyline) actually fits Campbell's model much better.
I'll read this arc again having this idea in mind then.
It would make perfect sense, as Usopp is a character we readers are meant to relate to most (if I remember correctly, Oda himself has stated this) - the only "normal" human (with "normality" being what it is in the OP-verse) of the entire crew.
@Monkey:
tldr: I don't think Oda based Laboon off that
In your post you said that "One Piece" as a story doesn't follow Campbell's model, but Laboon being a reference to/following one particular step remains a possibility.
How did the WG and marines find dragon hideout. Could kuzan still be working for them?
Blackbeard's crew probably sent an anonymous tip to the WG on the location to fuck over the Revolutionaries.
I was telling a friend what if they wanted to lure magma boy to steal his ability, two birds, one stone. But government sent CP0 instead.
No, it doesn't follow it, but I believe there are parts of the story we could match with specific steps of Campbell's models.
These steps being: "crossing first threshold"; "belly of the whale"; "atonement with father (= training with Rayleigh)"; "the ultimate boon(? (him being pirate king)); "freedom to live(? what happens after he becomes pirate king)"
Training with Rayleigh is in no way shape or form "Atonement with the Father". And I'd need to hear your opinion on when the first two occur.
Personally I'd disagree at there ever being a real threshold moment, entering the Grand Line resembles one closely in some ways, but it doesn't given the wider context of the Campbell model. It's not Luffy leaving the innocent world of his origin for the first time, which is really the meaning of that step.
It's probably due to the fact that this is an adventure manga in which we follow the quest of a hero, more than Oda being inspired by Campbell directly. Yet I find the Laboon "arc" curious, as it really resembles the "Belly of the whale" step and happens… inside the belly of a whale. There aren't much coincidences (if not at all) in the plot of a fictional story.
You say this as if being swallowed by a whale is a cliche found only in Campbell's book….when Campbell himself is using that as the name for the step based off similar cliche such story events. Like I mentioned with Jonah and Pinocchio.
The first threshold would correspond to him leaving Foosha village for the very first time, aged 17.
It really doesn't work very well because there's little true harsh lines laid down between Windmill village (guess what Foosha translates to) and what comes next.
This is made even more clear later when we see how Luffy grew up with Ace and Sabo, and that he'd been living a harsh and wild life in the mountains.
This really comes back to Luffy not at all fitting the role of the Hero's Journey protagonist.
Compare Usopp's village to the outside world and you have a nice example.
I'll have to agree on that - though I don't think his care-free personality changes the fact that he was just an unknown child setting out on an adventure at the beginning of the story.
Child? 17 year olds are not children. And I'm not sure what "unknown" means.
One of the biggest strikes against Luffy fitting the mold here is his absolute confidence through-ought East Blue. Only a few times (Mihawk, Nami betraying him, Smoker, execution stand,) does Luffy show any worry and concern. He doesn't at all come off like the nervous inexperienced young hero entering the dark outer world.
He comes off like what he is, a tough well honed startup good to go and kick some asses.
I don't understand the distinction you make between him and Luke/Bilbo/Ishmael (Moby Dick)
Where the heck did Ishmael come from lol. Moby Dick isn't a Hero's Journey story at all.
Is it because we can't relate to Luffy as much as we do to these characters?
That's one incredibly important distinction. Also that they are they are impressionable innocents being suddenly dragged into their adventures they were reluctant to go on, and are very very innocent to dangers of the wider world outside their boring little homes.
Luffy is a veteran of wild jungles who grew up fighting Garp and Ace, and basically blows through all the competition in the East Blue in short order.Luke Skywalker's background was explained in greater depth later on in the story, with Vader revealing that he was his father. It's like Luffy, in a way; we don't get to know his whole background from the start.
Luke was a baby when he was brought to Tatooine. His background is being a farm boy. That's it. His father's identity is important and a big deal, but his actual life has nothing at all to do with that.
Luffy's life seems to follow the same pattern regarding Dragon….and there the similarities end. He was brought up by Garp, and when Garp wasn't there he was living a wild rough adventurous life in the mountains with Ace and Sabo.I'll read this arc again having this idea in mind then.
It would make perfect sense, as Usopp is a character we readers are meant to relate to most (if I remember correctly, Oda himself has stated this) - the only "normal" human (with "normality" being what it is in the OP-verse) of the entire crew.Yes, this is Usopp's role and always has been.
@Long:
So someone finally rationalized somewhat pell survivng in a one piece logic kind of way. That doesnt try to use haki. In a better way than I have previously seen.
Ugh. Not the "falcons are super fast and that's why!" nonsense again.
He survived because Oda doesn't kill anyone when fainting and taking a scar will serve the same purpose dramatically. That's all.
It actually completely undermines everything to say he let go and flew away at top speed. If you HAVE to attribute a reason, its because Pell is a hero that made a promise to protect Vivi and he wasn't done protecting her. It works against the dramatic buildup, but it is what it is. Saying Pell dodged at the last second takes away from the sacrifice, it lessens his intent to hold it for as long as possible to save others. He didn't survive due to a last second dodge or moment of cowardice. He survived BECAUSE he took the brunt heroically and still had the will to carry on. Its how OP works at this point.
Same thing as the snow bunnies fighting Wapol, or Hachi being shot and stabbed, or Bon Kurei going into an unsurvivable fight against Magellan… or Monet not actually being stabbed in the heart. Oda put in an out to show that Ceaser missed and just jostled her a bit, but he still played the dramatic sacrifice dramatically.
Ugh. Not the "falcons are super fast and that's why!" nonsense again.
He survived because Oda doesn't kill anyone when fainting and taking a scar will serve the same purpose dramatically. That's all.
It actually completely undermines everything to say he let go and flew away at top speed. If you HAVE to attribute a reason, its because Pell is a hero that made a promise to protect Vivi and he wasn't done protecting her. It works against the dramatic buildup, but it is what it is. Saying Pell dodged at the last second takes away from the sacrifice, it lessens his intent to hold it for as long as possible to save others. He didn't survive due to a last second dodge or moment of cowardice. He survived BECAUSE he took the brunt heroically and still had the will to carry on. Its how OP works at this point.
Same thing as the snow bunnies fighting Wapol, or Hachi being shot and stabbed, or Bon Kurei going into an unsurvivable fight against Magellan… or Monet not actually being stabbed in the heart. Oda put in an out to show that Ceaser missed and just jostled her a bit, but he still played the dramatic sacrifice dramatically.
I think you missed this part in there
Pell then tosses the bomb even higher into the air. With the natural strength of Alabasta's strongest warrior combined with Zoan strength, Pell is able to slingshot the bomb up quite higher.
Quite a difference than dropping it. Maybe Ignore the diving thing either and just say he flung it up and didnt have time to dodge.
Yeah obviously I get the author reason to it but Pell's sacrifice gets 90% of the criticsm when oda writes normal people with the made of iron trope, and made of iron people get even more buffed. It's not that big of a difference with the rest of the survivability events and this was just saying why in OP's world it aint an outlier. Whats the problem with discussing a fun notion of how he could have survived an event that he shouldnt have, along with paulie's instant ropes, pagaya's soft clouds, the trickster Lamba-whatever's tounge.
Also Ftr the timing of Blackbeard and Magellan round 2 could have easily been the reason Mr. 2 was still alive. That one actually has a reasonable timing headcanon you could have.
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Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
@Long:
I think you missed this part in there.
Quite a difference than dropping it. Maybe Ignore the diving thing either and just say he flung it up and didnt have time to dodge.
Where did I say "drop"? I said "let go".
Pell didn't let go of the bomb. He was going to hold it till it exploded. Anything less makes it an act of last second cowardice instead of the sacrifice he intended. He was willing to sacrifice himself and he held it to the end.
ANd then survived it cause heroes never die.
Yeah obviously I get the author reason to it but Pell's sacrifice gets 90% of the criticsm when oda writes normal people with the made of iron trope
That's mostly because its the first time Oda really cheated dramatically to do it, and worked against all the symbolism he was using, and that was following Iragram having miraculously survived. If the same thing happened now in the same scenario no one would blink. Its not the event itself but the expectations around it.
Whats the problem with discussing a fun notion of how he could have survived an event that he shouldnt have, along with paulie's instant ropes, pagaya's soft clouds, the trickster Lamba-whatever's tounge.
Nothing wrong with having a mental explanation if you need one to excuse a character surviving when they shouldn't. I have to explain the out on Monet like once a month to people. And yes obviously Blackbeard is likely responsible for Bon surviving. These are unstated things that can be inferred.
But Pell didn't let go. That's not what the self sacrificing hero does in that situation.
To have to nitpick it down to "He's a super fast species of bird that could have conceivably tossed a thingwith his strength and then gone a certain number of miles per hour and then ridden a shockwave and was only hurt by the landing" is too much science and three parts of explanation too many. If you can't do it in one it's overcomplicated for Oda.
"Blackbeard interfered." "Robin faked it." "Ceaser missed the heart." "Enel missed." "Zoro's tough." "fake tongue." "Paulie used ropes." "Blueno grabbed them." "Doctor was nearby."
In Pell's case? He tanked it. How? Why? Because. "Vivi would be sad."
Where did I say "drop"? I said "let go".
Pell didn't let go of the bomb. He was going to hold it till it exploded. Anything less makes it an act of last second cowardice instead of the sacrifice he intended. He was willing to sacrifice himself and he held it to the end.
ANd then survived it cause heroes never die.
That's mostly because its the first time Oda really cheated dramatically to do it, and that was following Iragram having miraculously survived. If the same thing happened now in the same scenario no one would blink. Its not the event itself but the expectations around it.
Nothing wrong with having a mental explanation if you need one to excuse a character surviving when they shouldn't. I have to explain the out on Monet like once a month to people. And yes obviously Blackbeard is likely responsible for Bon surviving. These are unstated things that can be inferred.
But Pell didn't let go. That's not what the self sacrificing hero does in that situation.
To have to nitpick it down to "He's a super fast species of bird that could have conceivably tossed a thing then ridden a shockwave and was only hurt by the landing" is too much science and three parts of explanation too many. If you can't do it in one it's overcomplicated for Oda.
"Blackbeared interfeared." "Ceaser missed the heart." "Enel missed." "Zoro's tough." "toungue was a trick." "Paulie used his ropes." "Blueno grabbed them." "Doctor was nearbye."
Hmmm good points
Has anyone ever suggested " robin messed with the bomb like turning a nuke into a smaller level big explosion. Because she was "good " all along, IDK
\or Monet not actually being stabbed in the heart. Oda put in an out to show that Ceaser missed and just jostled her a bit, but he still played the dramatic sacrifice dramatically.
He missed?
Spoiler:
@Kaido:
He missed?
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/TOfsbZj.png[/qimg]
Yes, he hit the back of the cube causing it to slide. In the very next chapter you clearly seen the spike imbedded in the ground beside it, rather than in it.
Oda just framed the stabbing shot in a dramatic way to make it look like a direct hit, while any other possible camera angle above or to the side would have shown the truth.
Monet collapsed from the shock (same as Smoker and Law) and her earlier injuries from Tashigi, which had already been causing her to cough up blood prior to that, but not from being directly stabbed in the heart, regardless of any filler the anime added. (Including her not pressing the button despite having her finger on it for 3 solid minutes.)
I find that hard to believe, because in the two panels you can see that the distance between Caesar's hand and the heart grows smaller. And even if it did come back out eventually, it's clear that it did penetrate the heart, given the gouging motion and the bleeding. Assuming that it was just shock is a farther leap than assuming it was stabbed.
Spoiler:
@Kaido:
I find that hard to believe, because in the two panels you can see that the distance between Caesar's hand and the heart grows smaller. And even if it did come back out eventually, it's clear that it did penetrate the heart, given the gouging motion and the bleeding. Assuming that it was just shock is a farther leap than assuming it was stabbed.
This is a lot of effort to argue that Monet's heart got stabbed and she didn't die, as opposed to Monet's heart was grazed and she didn't die.
I wonder when Monet and Vergo will appear again and their function, what with the rest of the crew in ID, and all.
I get what you are saying Robby, what about the blood? Or is that liquid from the cube? And finally, wouldn't him stabbing it amd lifting his arm with the stake and stabbing down missing the cube leaving it the ground sound plausible for that second scene? Sorry if you've repeated yourself a lot about this, I just thought people were saying Monet was alive because "no one dies in One Piece".
Though reading the answers above, I guess that makes more sense if she is bound to comeback 100%.
On the Pell topic, as much as I also believe he tanked the thing, I don't think tossong it up would be an act of cowardice. However in that situation, calculating how far away you are, so the blast radius doesn't hit the city sounds too complicated, when I am just thinking Pell's mind was on: "Got to get as far as possible." On repeat
@Kaido:
I find that hard to believe, because in the two panels you can see that the distance between Caesar's hand and the heart grows smaller. And even if it did come back out eventually, it's clear that it did penetrate the heart, given the gouging motion and the bleeding. Assuming that it was just shock is a farther leap than assuming it was stabbed.
Its the same distance in both panels.
What you're saying he directly stabbed the heart, then pulled the spike out, and then triumphantly stabbed the ground hard enough to keep the spike embedded into the ground?
Oda played the moment dramatically. He made you think what he wanted you to think by picking a very specific camera angle. And then he put in his subtle out in the following chapter.
Its the same as when he "killed" Sabo.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Tamiel:
I get what you are saying Robby, what about the blood? Or is that liquid from the cube?
Liquid from the cube. Or hell, worst case scenario, he grazed the edge of the heart even.
But overall? He missed.
And finally, wouldn't him stabbing it amd lifting his arm with the stake and stabbing down missing the cube leaving it the ground sound plausible for that second scene?
You're having to add an extra layer of nonsense to it to justify it when "He missed" is all that's needed to explain the very unusual way that spike ended up. If the spike was lying on the ground, that'd be one thing. But it standing straight is so unusual that Oda wanted attention drawn to it.
Ceaser had zero reason to pull it out, and even less to restab the ground…. WHILE HE WAS PASSING OUT.
Sorry if you've repeated yourself a lot about this, I just thought people were saying Monet was alive because "no one dies in One Piece".
That fact overrides all. If it were Naruto, she'd be dead. She isn't dead because Oda. If fainting suffices instead of death, it'll be fainting. That was the 100% reason even the chapter she "died."
The proof and the "how" came the next chapter.
Add in the fact he later revealed that Sugar was his sister and did not play that up AT ALL for drama or a need for revenge or anything? Instead it was just a nonchalant SBS fact two years later?
The vindication will be now that Dresserossa is over when we finally get to the next coverstory like 4 years later. A much longer wait than usual, but Punk Hazard tied directly to Dresserossa, and that then took two years.
Liquid from the cube. Or hell, worst case scenario, he grazed the edge of the heart even.
But overall? He missed.
You're having to add an extra layer of nonsense to it to justify it when "He missed" is all that's needed to explain the very unusual way that spike ended up. If the spike was lying on the ground, that'd be one thing. But it standing straight is so unusual that Oda wanted attention drawn to it.
Ceaser had zero reason to pull it out, and even less to restab the ground…. WHILE HE WAS PASSING OUT.
.
I guess to make it less nonsensical, he tried stabbimg the heart twice, second one missed. To be honest, she is dead to me, however I would not question-argue-complain, when she does come back.
"So you're saying monet is the next nakam…"
Gets stabbed by Robby.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
In reality I wonder if it's too big of a stretch to say they wont have any plot relevance in the future. Some team up to survive, antihero temporary alliance maybe during Wano. Cover story alone is the most likely but It would be interesting if they entered the main storyline.
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
@Long:
"So you're saying monet is the next nakam…"
Gets stabbed by Robby.
Don't worry, it will just slide, you'll just pass out from shock!
Gets stabbed twice by Robby.
@Tamiel:
I guess to make it less nonsensical, he tried stabbimg the heart twice, second one missed. To be honest, she is dead to me, however I would not question-argue-complain, when she does come back.
Thats not any less nonsensical. If he stabbed it solidly, why would he then pull it out? While passing out? And then stab again, hard enough to implant it into the floor? Why would ODA add that much extra work and curiosity to it when he could have just drawn the spike in the heart, or not shown it the next chapter at all?
He very deliberately showed that something was amiss. That wasn't an accident with a prop on a movie set, it was a deliberately drawn detail.
And she should be back next cover story along with all the other Dresserossa flunkies getting redemption.
When the final result regardless is going to be "She's alive", why go for the more complicated explanation that requires even more absurd excuses and more random actions for her to survive?
"Ceaser missed" is clean and simple and what we have evidence for, regardless of how dramatic the prior scene may have been.
@Long:
In reality I wonder if it's too big of a stretch to say they wont have any plot relevance in the future. Some team up to survive antihero allance gimmick.
They'll be as relevant as Buggy, or Hachi, Or Baroque Works turned out to be at Impel Down and the war, and CP9 turned out to be recently. As relevenat and Enel was with the meta plot and will be again. A few of them will get written off into happy ending nonsense careers and random cover appearances 10 year later, and some will be redeemed and combatants around for the final war to help out.
It won't matter in the anime since they don't do cover stories, so when they show up alive in 15 years in the main story that'll jus tbe weird… but no more than Django and Fullbody becoming friends off camera or Hachi meeting Caimie.
Current around the world cover story will end with Monet and Vergo reading about Doffy's defeat by Luffy or silhouettes of them walking away from a paper. Something like that.
@Long:
Yeah obviously I get the author reason to it but Pell's sacrifice gets 90% of the criticsm when oda writes normal people with the made of iron trope, and made of iron people get even more buffed. It's not that big of a difference with the rest of the survivability events and this was just saying why in OP's world it aint an outlier. Whats the problem with discussing a fun notion of how he could have survived an event that he shouldnt have, along with paulie's instant ropes, pagaya's soft clouds, the trickster Lamba-whatever's tounge.
Also Ftr the timing of Blackbeard and Magellan round 2 could have easily been the reason Mr. 2 was still alive. That one actually has a reasonable timing headcanon you could have.
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i have to agree with Long john here.throwing the bomb up when they were already pretty clear off the ground doesn't seem cowardly at all to me.it would instead be suicidal to do so.he did what he had to,and vivi and the rest were all out of danger.the part i have problem with is "riding the explosion".i am not really convinced that would work,but overall as headcanon i think it's good.
of course,it was still dramatically deceptive and etcetra.i think it would have been a nice compromise if he at least lost some limbs or something
Since he started his journey Luffy has met lots of people who are royalty (princes, princess, ect). Sanji was the first prince he met. If Vinsmoke Judge all his other children were defeated would that mean Sanji would be in charge of the kingdom?
Successful negro doesn't need a signature.
Since he started his journey Luffy has met lots of people who are royalty (princes, princess, ect). Sanji was the first prince he met. If Vinsmoke Judge all his other children were defeated would that mean Sanji would be in charge of the kingdom?
You better believe it bruddah!
But that depends if Sanji would even want to take control.
Actually being defeated in and of itself probably won't mean much as to who rules but if they were defeated and completely run out of town then sure Sanji would be the rightful ruler.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯ 
You better believe it bruddah!
But that depends if Sanji would even want to take control.
Actually being defeated in and of itself probably won't mean much as to who rules but if they were defeated and completely run out of town then sure Sanji would be the rightful ruler.
I doubt he would want control. Although Sanji seems like he always gets help from people he disliked at first. Gin, Mr. 2, Duval, and the G-5 marines
@Long:
So someone finally rationalized somewhat pell survivng in a one piece logic kind of way. That doesnt try to use haki. In a better way than I have previously seen.
1-It's been around a while.
2-It's still BS that totally skip the intention of Pell and the message conveyed by the panels.
3-Oda deciced he wanted Pell had to survived, it was a bad choice, let's move on.
1-It's been around a while.
2-It's still BS that totally skip the intention of Pell and the message conveyed by the panels.
3-Oda deciced he wanted Pell had to survived, it was a bad choice, let's move on.
My new headcanon is robin made the bomb weaker, because she didnt really kill igaram when honestly it wouldnt have changed much for her anyways so she had some morals and probably didnt want That Many people to die IDK man.
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When the final result regardless is going to be "She's alive", why go for the more complicated explanation that requires even more absurd excuses and more random actions for her to survive?
"Ceaser missed" is clean and simple and what we have evidence for, regardless of how dramatic the prior scene may have been.
Yeah, just wishful thinking, to believe both of them are dead, that is all. Thanks for the clear up Robby, it might even be something related to Law's fruit. Like you can squeeze but not stab or damage the organ inside the cube. I guess I am just wondering whom saved them. Maybe even Doffy, but told them to keep low and now they will help Doffy break out of Impel Down. Hmm.
I'm going to ask this here, as there doesn't seem to be a Marine/World Government thread.
Would you guys have prefered the CP0 members to be entirely new characters?
I'm going to ask this here, as there doesn't seem to be a Marine/World Government thread.
Would you guys have prefered the CP0 members to be entirely new characters?
I trust that at least SOME of them will be new characters, the guy Doflamingo was talking to right before the timeskip pretty much has to be for instance.
I'm not sure how I feel yet about re-using Lucci and Spandam for it.
@Monkey:
I'm not sure how I feel yet about re-using Lucci and Spandam for it.
It depends on how he uses them I guess. Thus far I think Oda has done a great job with re-using characters. I'm curious to see what future roles he has in mind for Lucci, Kaku & Spandam. I wonder if CP0 could have been more "original" in the sense that it could have brought some great new characters to the table, but it can do so even with those three already being there. Plus we already had the whole secret governmental organisation thing as a villain in W7 + EL, so we didn't really need that again.
@Monkey:
I trust that at least SOME of them will be new characters, the guy Doflamingo was talking to right before the timeskip pretty much has to be for instance.
I'm not sure how I feel yet about re-using Lucci and Spandam for it.
I wonder how they'll be used differently, and how else they could develop without being just the villains, im especially interested about kaku as oda made his defeat look the most gracious, he appeared to have the most real interest in iceburh fwiw, I dont really know but them being only opponents for the mid tier strawhats would be a waste.
While i think that Lucci is a damn fitting choice for the CP0, even after his defeat to Luffy, that also steals any threat from this organization.
Granted there are sure new faces in the CP0 who could be dangerous, but Lucci will never be a face to face opponent for Luffy again.
So the CP0 might be good to cause some havoc and problems, but as real obstacles fighting wise i can´t see them play a role.
Unrevealed: Loki/Rocks/the man marked by flames/Im-san
Island: Elbaf/Raftel/GodValley
Unresolved: Weevil´s plan/Joy-Boy/Zunisha´s story/Rocks flashback/Void Century/Rioponeglyph/Uranus/the D.clan
DFWind/Metal/Acid/Liquid/Time-Stop
Is Lucci the boss of the CP0 ?
If he's, don't get why Teach ran away when they came to Baltigo.
Is Kaku coming back, confirmed ? Because we've just seen Spandam and Lucci right ? the guy he was talking to was probably Blueno but that's all.
And never liked Lucci, he's and has always been the WG's bitch. He's even worst than Akainu, at least Akainu tells the Tenryubito what they are.
@S.C.:
I wonder when Monet and Vergo will appear again and their function, what with the rest of the crew in ID, and all.
Is the rest of the crew going to ID too ? Did they have a bounty at least ?
And I think Monet and Vergo will just rescue Doflamingo from ID. The good time would be right now -every admirals are at the Reverie, so no one will bother them- even though Magellan is still a problem for a them though. But, if you get in ID when Magellan goes to the toilet, it's workable. Just gotta know SOMEHOW, when he's going to shit before getting in. Ohhh, and of course, the gate of justice isn't a big deal. Since Monet, Vergo ( he can use Geppou ) and Doflamingo can fly.
@John:
the guy he was talking to was probably Blueno but that's all.
It was mentioned that the individual talking to Lucci sounded like Kaku.
It was mentioned that the individual talking to Lucci sounded like Kaku.
Is that from the anime ?
because, don't remember anything alike http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/801/2
@John:
Is that from the anime ?
"The person speaking through the Den Den Mushi has the same speech pattern as Kaku."
Is that something only japanese readers can see ?
