Chapter 680: "Captain of the Marine's G-5, Kichiku no Vergo"

nonectra

Apparently some people just see things that aren't there.
Funny how none of the people accusing OP of sexism ever complain about how Nami is physically assaulting the male cast with no repercussions, or using her femininity to get Sanji to do things for her.

You don't really get sexism, huh? Let's put it down like this - yes, One Piece is sexist. When you think about it, it's pretty obvious why. Think of all the higher ranked marines - say Captain-rank and higher? How many are females? Three. How many are guys? Like a billion of them. How about the Warlords? There's six guys to one girl. And the Emperors? And the Supernova? See a trend? There's a lack of female representation in the manga in general and of the character that are most important and powerful in the world, only one or two are female. That's discrimination based on gender at the most basic level in media.

Like CCC said, you can enjoy the manga regardless. Trying to dismiss it is a pretty silly thing to do, though.

minor_runes

@King:

Well, some of them. Not all women do that.

I never made such a generalization.

Autumncomet

Clarifying quote:

Emotional reactions to their friends. You'll notice in all of these examples you gave, it's the character's own emotions as related to themselves that we focus on. With Nami and Robin, it's how they opened up to other people.

If I worded it badly, I apologize, English isn't my native language. Basically, Nami and Robin's development as characters and crewmembers was inherently linked with the reactions of the crew, which is definitely not a bad thing. It's just jarring because this was not really the case for any of the men in the crew. Nex made a pretty compelling argument for Usopp, but it's one of those things that you could really see any way.

How about you don't go assuming I was talking about you when your name wasn't being mentioned.

Well, I was one of the people who pointed out that OP does have sexist elements towards all genders, so it sort of did include me by default.

e: Holy shit, this post, yes:

You don't really get sexism, huh? Let's put it down like this - yes, One Piece is sexist. When you think about it, it's pretty obvious why. Think of all the higher ranked marines - say Captain-rank and higher? How many are females? Three. How many are guys? Like a billion of them. How about the Warlords? There's six guys to one girl. And the Emperors? And the Supernova? See a trend? There's a lack of female representation in the manga in general and of the character that are most important and powerful in the world, only one or two are female. That's discrimination based on gender at the most basic level in media.

Like CCC said, you can enjoy the manga regardless. Trying to dismiss it is a pretty silly thing to do, though.

Back on topic: what are the chances that Smoker or Tashigi know any of the CP9 moves?

Nalkul

@CCC:

Eh, I'd put Nami and Robin in the same boat as Ace in that respect. Nami ran off with the ship and told Luffy to fuck off. She kept doing so until the point when she realized that everyone in her village was going off to die fighting the fishmen, and that she couldn't do anything about it. She could have cried for help when she first saw how strong Luffy and Zoro were, but she kept on putting off the damsel role until the latest-possible, most despair-filled moment (not over fear for her own life/suffering, but for that of others). Robin, of course, volunteered to die to protect her new friends, although she very well could have just run away to save her own skin and let them get bustered. She put herself in the situation not because of some inherent, "feminine" weakness, but rather because of a self-sacrificing strength. Her "help me" only came when she saw that the SHs would rescue her or die trying no matter what, so why not honor their courage by formally requesting some help? Likewise, Ace revived into action when Luffy finally reached him with the key. If you think about it, Brook barely gave pause before asking for help (beat Moriah please) and Usopp didn't take much convincing either (protect village please).

I'm by no means defending Oda's sexism or saying it doesn't exist or should be overlooked (lol @ only a problem for Americans. please), but it's a product of thousands of years of a still-going-quite-strong patriarchy. As long as you can view it in that context, I think you can find some middle ground between the misogyny-apologistic "who cares if women are consistently trivialized?" and the "I am deeply offended and can no longer enjoy this children's comic."

Awesomely put the only thing id debate you in ccc is that op is for all ages not a childrens comic although i realize that is in quotes so it could be a quote from someone else but again very good ccc i hope that will end these so we can get to some good speculation on the next chapter

Aohige_AP

@nonectra:

Think of all the higher ranked marines - say Captain-rank and higher? How many are females? Three. How many are guys? Like a billion of them. How about the Warlords? There's six guys to one girl. And the Emperors? And the Supernova? See a trend?

I'm pretty sure 99% of Navy soldiers, seamen, and pirates in the Age of Discovery were men too.

Sweaty, smelly, bearded, and dirty men that stink like fish.

Nalkul

@Autumncomet:

If Tashigi doesn't team up with Sanji/Smoker to fight Vergo, then she's honestly a good candidate. Comedy option: have all of the swordsmen (Zoro, Kinemon, Tashigi, Brook, Law) argue over who gets to take down the dragon. And then Usopp punks it

Cool idea i didnt think about that usopp punking it would be awesome!

Game And Guy

@Autumncomet:

Please don't put words in my mouth. Sexism goes in both directions, and OP makes unpleasant assumptions about all genders, but Nami being Nami wasn't the topic of conversation, Tashigi was. I can go on a rant about Nami if you like!

Sigh…

for one, this is a manga who's audience are teenage boys.

for another, Oda, along with many other mangakas, writers, playwrights, and whatnot, don't even think of these "objectionable" sexism. These things are just age old tropes that are older than your grandma's grandma's grandma's grandma's, which has definitely lost its meaning throughout the years. It's a non-issue that's to be taken with a grain of salt. It's like the word and phrase "Sucks" - it literally used to be a derogatory word that, you thought it, meant to describe something as a blow-job. But now, it has lost all of its meaning, and the old meaning is not accounted for anymore.

It's an empty house.

But of course, Oda's imagery of transvestites other than our main ones is an obvious joke.

EDIT: And what the hell? So the noble notion of protecting a woman, something that has been set upon for thousands of years now despite the discrimination, is suddenly pissing people off? What?

nonectra

@Aohige_AP:

I'm pretty sure 99% of Navy soldiers, seamen, and pirates in the Age of Discovery were men too.

Sure, but this isn't a historically accurate comic.

Aohige_AP

@nonectra:

Sure, but this isn't a historically accurate comic.

No, but it's a fantasy representation of an era.

I don't like seeing half of the sengoku samurai turned into females either. Fantasy or not.

Cteatus

Bringing up Ace is a false equivocation, because even though Ace needed to be saved, there are still plenty of extremely strong male characters that don't need saving. The number of female characters with any sort of importance to the story that are protaganists? Very few. And desiring stronger female characters isn't wrong, nor is criticizing the manga for not having them.

That said, Robin gave herself up to CP-9 to save the Straw Hat Crew, and ultimately shattered her kidnapper's back (Spandam), and proved herself to be a pretty strong character. There are reasonable criticisms to be made of the role of women in One Piece, and Oda could do a much better job of portraying them. And despite all the talk of this being just a manga and the market is mainly boys: Women have been elected the heads of state of countries like Australia, Germany, and Pakistan.

As it pertains to this chapter: While Tashigi did come across as weak in this chapter, it was understandable considering she was going up against a Vice-Admiral. I don't think Sanji is going to put the beat down on Vergo, partially because he's injured, but mostly because Smoker and Tashigi are the one's that deserve to do it. They're the one's that have been betrayed, it's they're men that have been killed and poisoned because of Vergo's treachery, and it will be them that ultimately enact justice on Vergo. Sanji, I think, will be able to hold off Vergo until Monet follows through with Caesar's plan.

King Cannon

@minor_runes:

I never made such a generalization.

The word "some" can help you a lot in an argument.

Aldrato

@nonectra:

You don't really get sexism, huh? Let's put it down like this - yes, One Piece is sexist. When you think about it, it's pretty obvious why. Think of all the higher ranked marines - say Captain-rank and higher? How many are females? Three. How many are guys? Like a billion of them. How about the Warlords? There's six guys to one girl. And the Emperors? And the Supernova? See a trend? There's a lack of female representation in the manga in general and of the character that are most important and powerful in the world, only one or two are female. That's discrimination based on gender at the most basic level in media.

that is not discrimination. there are not many female characters because this is a boy's manga. it is a common trope. would you rather see seven big-breasted seminude girls with guns leading the Marines? because that would be actually sexist

nonectra

@Aohige_AP:

No, but it's a fantasy representation of an era.

I don't like seeing half of the sengoku samurai turned into females either. Fantasy or not.

Understandable. I'm not saying that everyone should be a lady, but what I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt to have a few more higher-ranked female characters. I don't think that's too unreasonable to want.

Nex 0

And right after I make my commendation things start to turn hostile.

Yayyyyy

Aldrato

@400MillionBelis:

And what the hell? So the noble notion of protecting a woman, something that has been set upon for thousands of years now despite the discrimination, is suddenly pissing people off? What?

maybe being a misogynist wife-beater is the right thing to do now

nonectra

@Aldrato:

that is not discrimination. there are not many female characters because this is a boy's manga. it is a common trope. would you rather see seven big-breasted seminude girls with guns leading the Marines? because that would be actually sexist

No, I'd rather see a couple of powerful female characters that aren't Hancock. Granted, that won't happen, but still, I think it'd go a long way in making the story a bit more balanced.

Nalkul

I mean as people see it its gonna take a whole slew of men and women to take down just big mom who is a woman. More importantly whose gonna accidentally eat that devil fruit apple in the post game feast?

minor_runes

@Autumncomet:

Clarifying quote:
If I worded it badly, I apologize, English isn't my native language. Basically, Nami and Robin's development as characters and crewmembers was inherently linked with the reactions of the crew, which is definitely not a bad thing. It's just jarring because this was not really the case for any of the men in the crew. Nex made a pretty compelling argument for Usopp, but it's one of those things that you could really see any way.

Well, I was one of the people who pointed out that OP does have sexist elements towards all genders, so it sort of did include me by default.

e: Holy shit, this post, yes:

As far as emotional reactions, the point I was arguing was that it was similar for male characters, Chopper's psychological scars especially come to mind.
I'd have to sit down to write out detail analysis for other characters, but I think it was pretty similar for all of them.

As far as sexism is concerned, in my opinion OP is no more (in fact less) sexist than the actual world we live in. Whether it is the way it is because gender are actually different, or because men are keeping the women down is a debate for another thread.
But if anything if you looked at real military OP is actually quite progressive by comparison, there is no Big Mom or Boa Hancock equivalent in the real world that I am aware of. Tashigi being a swordswoman should be downright feminist by Japanese standards.

Back on topic: what are the chances that Smoker or Tashigi know any of the CP9 moves?

I'd wager they may be aware of them and their historical use by the WG shadow groups, but they wouldn't be trained in using them.

Autumncomet

@400MillionBelis:

Sigh…

for one, this is a manga who's audience are teenage boys.

for another, Oda, along with many other mangakas, writers, playwrights, and whatnot, don't even think of these "objectionable" sexism. These things are just age old tropes that are older than your grandma's grandma's grandma's grandma's, which has definitely lost its meaning throughout the years. It's a non-issue that's to be taken with a grain of salt. It's like the word and phrase "Sucks" - it literally used to be a derogatory word that, you thought it, meant to describe something as a blow-job. But now, it has lost all of its meaning, and the old meaning is not accounted for anymore.

It's an empty house.

But of course, Oda's imagery of transvestites other than our main ones is an obvious joke.

Thing is, just because people don't think about the downsides to these common tropes doesn't mean they shouldn't. Telling a good story comes first, obviously, but if you can tell a good story while avoiding these tropes, it really couldn't hurt to try.

Oda's imagery of transvestites and the transgendered is one of the worst things in One Piece.

And I'm unfamiliar with the expression "it's an empty house". Does that just mean something is a non-issue?

Understandable. I'm not saying that everyone should be a lady, but what I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt to have a few more higher-ranked female characters. I don't think that's too unreasonable to want.

This, pretty much. And maybe some female fodder too. Men and women should be able to blow things up and get blown up equally. :ninja:

e: Okay, minor_runes, so we're pretty much on the same point, I just suck at English. :ninja: Nex actually did write out the analysis, and I believe we only disputed about Usopp.

As far as sexism is concerned, in my opinion OP is no more (in fact less) sexist than the actual world we live in. Whether it is the way it is because gender are actually different, or because men are keeping the women down is a debate for another thread.
But if anything if you looked at real military OP is actually quite progressive by comparison, there is no Big Mom or Boa Hancock equivalent in the real world that I am aware of. Tashigi being a swordswoman should be downright feminist by Japanese standards.
This is exactly right. But why not be more equal than real life is what some of us are saying.

Aohige_AP

@nonectra:

Understandable. I'm not saying that everyone should be a lady, but what I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt to have a few more higher-ranked female characters. I don't think that's too unreasonable to want.

And exactly how many?
From the way some of you talk, it sounds like you wouldn't be satisfied until half the characters have boobs and vagina.

Personally? Hancock, Big Mam, and Hina is enough for me.
I'd like to see Robin kick more ass, and Tashigi to step up, but nowhere the level of raising pitchforks.

Autumncomet

A couple more. That's all I ask, really. I don't even need names for them, they can be fodder. I would just like acknowledgement that women can be fodder too, there really isn't any female fodder in OP.

And you forgot Tsuru. A female VA though, that's pretty awesome.

Hisoga

@TheCrystalShip:

That Arlong Park was a damsel in distress arc.

That archetype IS an example of inherent sexism. I'm not saying that Oda is A sexist, because I can't honestly know that, I'm saying that his manga plays into sexism and patriarchal bullshit. I just try to push that to the back of my brain so I can enjoy the finer moments of One Piece.

maybe it was just you the one that full with prejudice or maybe the one who are like "that"… i mean its typical for a human being to think like that towards another human being because he/she too are like the one they hated/accused/prejudiced..

for example, this person "A" was a thief, so sometimes he/she too will suspecting or not trusting another person..

and no, i am not saying you are a thief or sexist but just saying that sometimes we human being are too busy judging and criticizing another human but forgot that we are like that too or sometimes those kind of feeling are actually because of deep down in our heart, we are like that too..

minor_runes

@Aohige_AP:

And exactly how many?
From the way some of you talk, it sounds like you wouldn't be satisfied until half the characters have boobs and vagina.

Personally? Hancock, Big Mam, and Hina is enough for me.
I'd like to see Robin kick more ass, and Tashigi to step up, but nowhere the level of raising pitchforks.

I also recall Tsuru, Belmere and Dadan.

nonectra

@Aohige_AP:

And exactly how many?
From the way some of you talk, it sounds like you wouldn't be satisfied until half the characters have boobs and vagina.

Personally? Hancock, Big Mam, and Hina is enough for me.
I'd like to see Robin kick more ass, and Tashigi to step up, but nowhere the level of raising pitchforks.

There's not really an exact number. It's more of a… Wow, it'd be cool if instead of 20 male VAs (or however many) and 1 female, there were 3 or 4 more ladies and a few less dudes. Similarly, I think another lady warlord might b koolio 2, dude.

I'm not exactly raging or anything, though. I really adore One Piece... I just think a lack of stronger female characters is a weakness the manga has. That's all.

Cyclone_Baroness

The only reason I can think of people not liking Sanji swooping in to save Tashigi in this case is because she's supposed to be a fighter. At this stage of the story people want to see her being strong and independent of needing assistance…Or crying. But Tashigi's personality seems to have always been the more sensitive type. So she may break down in tears easier. But she also just lost a lot of her men and now has her superior killing more. I'm not a fan of Tashigi, but given last chapter where she blocked Zoro I was hoping it was a sign that she's gained the strength to maybe hold her ground in the New World. But then she gets rocked and internally cries out for Smoker. I was disappointed, but I can also see why she might be mentally drained.

She's pretty much the Usopp of the Marines, she's very much a normal person and very trusting of her superiors for the most part. Being placed in these situations where she has these horrible truths being unveiled could break a lot of people.

King Cannon

@nonectra:

Understandable. I'm not saying that everyone should be a lady, but what I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt to have a few more higher-ranked female characters. I don't think that's too unreasonable to want.

This post makes me wonder. Have we ever seen a lower-ranked female Marine? It seems the fodder Marine soldiers are 100% male.

You keep talking about how few strong, female Marines are there despite that weak, nameless, female soldiers are pretty much nonexistent.

minor_runes

@Autumncomet:

e: Okay, minor_runes, so we're pretty much on the same point, I just suck at English. :ninja: Nex actually did write out the analysis, and I believe we only disputed about Usopp.
This is exactly right. But why not be more equal than real life is what some of us are saying.

I can see how it could, but again, as was mentioned this is a shonen manga, certain conventions are expected as basically necessary to appeal tho the audience.
We are blessed that Oda managed to make it so appealing to older guys like me (28) and beyond while still somehow catering to that audience.

Aohige_AP

Usopp of the marines is already taken. His name is Helmeppo.

Tashigi just got beaten over and over and over, then she lost men who sacrificed their lives for her.
She should step up, and join Sanji in fighting Vergo.

It keeps coming up that stronger characters addressing Tashigi as too weak for the front lines in this arc again and again.
Obviously Oda is building up something for her development.

Demonicpoodle

@King:

This post makes me wonder. Have we ever seen a lower-ranked female Marine? It seems the fodder Marine soldiers are 100% male.

It's honestly pretty sexist all across the board in all types of media that the standard people to be fodder/die in crowds are male. Whenever I write whatever I'm going to write, it's going to be 50% males and 50% females getting their heads blown off / sliced up.

Game And Guy

@Autumncomet:

Thing is, just because people don't think about the downsides to these common tropes doesn't mean they shouldn't. Telling a good story comes first, obviously, but if you can tell a good story while avoiding these tropes, it really couldn't hurt to try.

The problem with that is that this manga is in the genre that focuses on male teenagers.

You'll find a lot of girl focus in shoujo (pardon me if this is wrong, I don't know much about genres).

If you're offended by a trope in a genre that specifically uses it, then you're arguing with your foot.

@Autumncomet:

Oda's imagery of transvestites and the transgendered is one of the worst things in One Piece.

Ehh - whole other argument no one needs to be offended in unless you're a part of that demography.

@Autumncomet:

And I'm unfamiliar with the expression "it's an empty house". Does that just mean something is a non-issue?

When a house had inhabitants, many things happened in it. Once it empty, and its former inhabitants are long gone, then it's gone. Whatever origin it may have come from, when it's dead, it's dead. It's silly to dwell on it.

onemoment

Hey, who said that if Smoker and Tashigi's roles were reversed, that Smoker would never call for help? Does that mean that, in this example, Tashigi would be the invincible marine and Smoker gets his ass kicked every few fights? Cause I think regardless of gender, even in this manga, a sensitive, idealist and weaker Smoker would call for help. Heck, I'm imagining say, Colby, in a similar situation. If he already made a speech about being brave, I'm sure he'd ask for help from whichever badass is in the area. One Piece still has sexism, but I take comfort in knowing that it's a lot better then other manga.

Also, there's complaining about Sanji's personality for the past few arcs? Do Sanji fans not have a sense of humor? Instead of complaining about how he was made to dress like a girl and bleed to death every few minutes, you should worship the character for putting himself through that to entertain you. I don't see much wrong with the guy.

minor_runes

@King:

This post makes me wonder. Have we ever seen a lower-ranked female Marine? It seems the fodder Marine soldiers are 100% male.

You keep talking about how few strong, female Marines are there despite that weak, nameless, female soldiers are pretty much nonexistent.

Looking back there are plenty of female civilians, but I don't recall any military fodder that was female.
I imagine it's simply a reflection of traditional military, which has been predominantly male since time immemorial. Sexist or not, as far as physical requirements for the military, it is easier for guys to fit the bill than it is for gals.
My best guess is Oda didn't see any reason to deviate from the real world in that regard except for incidental named characters of higher rank.

Autumncomet

@Aohige_AP:

Usopp of the marines is already taken. His name is Helmeppo.

Ah, but do they have their own Sogeking?

@400MillionBelis:

The problem with that is that this manga is in the genre that focuses on male teenagers.

You'll find a lot of girl focus in shoujo (pardon me if this is wrong, I don't know much about genres).

If you're offended by a trope in a genre that specifically uses it, then you're arguing with your foot.

I'm not offended, I completely realize this is par for the course and I absolutely expect it. But will male teenagers really be driven away by some random female fodders and a couple of nameless high ranking female officers? I don't think so.

I really don't read any other currently on-going series than the Big Three and Silver Spoon.

Ehh - whole other argument no one needs to be offended in unless you're a part of that demography.

I am bisexual and since Oda conflated gay with transvestite (or didn't draw a distinction between those and drag queen), it sort of does affect me. I'm not saying Mr. 2 and Level 5.5 weren't great, because they were. I guess at least it was a positive portrayal?

When a house had inhabitants, many things happened in it. Once it empty, and its former inhabitants are long gone, then it's gone. Whatever origin it may have come from, when it's dead, it's dead. It's silly to dwell on it.

Okay. I didn't know that, cool.

minor_runes

@onemoment:

Also, there's complaining about Sanji's personality for the past few arcs? Do Sanji fans not have a sense of humor? Instead of complaining about how he was made to dress like a girl and bleed to death every few minutes, you should worship the character for putting himself through that to entertain you. I don't see much wrong with the guy.

I don't know why people complain about Sanji at all, he is a great alternative to Zoro's bloodthirsty deadpan snarker. I like them both, and they play very well off each other.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Autumncomet:

I'm not offended, I completely realize this is par for the course and I absolutely expect it. But will male teenagers really be driven away by some random female fodders and a couple of nameless high ranking female officers? I don't think so.

Look at it this way, from what I have seen of shojo mangas it's mostly female superheroes saving the day, and they guys are either damsels in distress or love interests.
They are sexist too, just in a mirror image of shonen. Heck, look at this board, every time there is a chapter without fighting people whine, and this is a fan community.
Imagine if there were more girls kicking guy's asses, I shudder at the thought of all the whining that would commence every time.

Cyclone_Baroness

@minor_runes:

I don't know why people complain about Sanji at all, he is a great alternative to Zoro's bloodthirsty deadpan snarker. I like them both, and they play very well off each other.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Look at it this way, from what I have seen of shojo mangas it's mostly female superheroes saving the day, and they guys are either damsels in distress or love interests.
They are sexist too, just in a mirror image of shonen. Heck, look at this board, every time there is a chapter without fighting people whine, and this is a fan community.
Imagine if there were more girls kicking guy's asses, I shudder at the thought of all the whining that would commence every time.

I think there would be less complaints if we saw more ass kicking from the ladies. It seems to be a common desire from a lot of fans. Or at least it feels that way because it seems to show up every chapter that has a fight if the woman aren't balls to the wall badass or something.

Nalkul

why are we still on this I really don't get it odas is playing off of the classic okama that is seen in many Japanese things. what is next the animal rights activist hating on op because zoan types are getting beat up on? I mean really can we get back on discussion for the chapter? if you are so offended by it why don't you stop reading it? actually ill answer that one for you because the story is so good. so can we please discuss the normal ridiculous predictions, and how much we can't wait for the next chapter and stop with the society issues?

Autumncomet

@minor_runes:

Look at it this way, from what I have seen of shojo mangas it's mostly female superheroes saving the day, and they guys are either damsels in distress or love interests.
They are sexist too, just in a mirror image of shonen. Heck, look at this board, every time there is a chapter without fighting people whine, and this is a fan community.
Imagine if there were more girls kicking guy's asses, I shudder at the thought of all the whining that would commence every time.

Fan rage is the best rage.

I don't know too much about shojo, but if that's true, then there need to be more men unconnected to the protagonist and her set of friends to balance things.

Oda can at least try. He's rich enough not to care. If there are more women, then more of them are allowed to succeed but also to fail. You have to have both to be balanced. That's why earlier in the thread we expressed a desire for even a little bit more female fodder.

^ Okay, fine. I predict Tashigi will kick someone's ass next chapter. :ninja:

CCC

@minor_runes:

Imagine if there were more girls kicking guy's asses, I shudder at the thought of all the whining that would commence every time.

Really? I mean, I guess I'll speak for myself, but that would be pretty damn refreshing. If people would whine about females kicking male ass because it happens to be females doing the ass-kicking, that would be proof that we've got a ways to go.

And come on… unfortunate implications about perceived glass ceilings aside, Crocodile turning out to be transgendered via Ivankov would be the greatest thing ever.

STP_PS

@Cyclone_Baroness:

She's pretty much the Usopp of the Marines, she's very much a normal person and very trusting of her superiors for the most part. Being placed in these situations where she has these horrible truths being unveiled could break a lot of people.

So much this ^^. Speaking of which I would love to see a fan made Tashussop ( Tashigi in Ussops clothing) Obviously with a bra to cover her pride, but not too big:ninja:. Could someone help me out with this request please?

Cyclone_Baroness

@CCC:

Really? I mean, I guess I'll speak for myself, but that would be pretty damn refreshing. If people would whine about females kicking male ass because it happens to be females doing the ass-kicking, that would be proof that we've got a ways to go.

And come on… unfortunate implications about perceived glass ceilings aside, Crocodile turning out to be transgendered via Ivankov would be the greatest thing ever.

Lol. I thought that's what the secret is that Ivankov is holding over Crocodile. But then we saw his kid picture…But kids are pretty androgynous lol. Maybe still that possibility.

MasterKingJC

Since we're on the topic of male and female readers, I thought I'd share this with you guys.
A chart from another forum showing how popular each Jump series is with both genders.

As you can see, the recent OP volume was more popular with female fans than male fans.

minor_runes

@CCC:

Really? I mean, I guess I'll speak for myself, but that would be pretty damn refreshing. If people would whine about females kicking male ass because it happens to be females doing the ass-kicking, that would be proof that we've got a ways to go.

And come on… unfortunate implications about perceived glass ceilings aside, Crocodile turning out to be transgendered via Ivankov would be the greatest thing ever.

I think people just like to whine in general, and in fact it's probably the most active fans that do most of the whining. I am just one of those fans that is very happy with the manga being as it is.
I do agree that it would be more fun to watch Tashigi kick more butt for a change regardless of the gender of the butt on the receiving end. In that regard there could be an improvement. In fact having a cast member that was a female hand to hand fighter (a martial artist, not someone like Robin) would have been very fun.

As far as Crocodile… suffice to say there seems to be a lot of people with a MtoF transgender fetish reading OP.

Game And Guy

@CCC:

And come on… unfortunate implications about perceived glass ceilings aside, Crocodile turning out to be transgendered via Ivankov would be the greatest thing ever.

Oh it will be wonderful :wub:

Drake_Cloud

While I'd just HAAAATE to derail the current conversation, I'm curious to see if Sanji knows Rankyaku now. If he doesn't, I could see him learning it from Vergo, Luffy-style.

Also, while I don't think Tashigi is going to be able to compete physically with Vergo enough to be all that helpful in a fight, she does presumably know alot about his fighting style and could help out that way. Sanji is after all the cleverest and trickiest of the SH (of the men anyway), and having someone who knows alot about his foe would be a great asset for him. This is after all the guy who said "I'll do what you cannot do, and you do what I cannot do" (or something like that), and Tashigi could provide information about a weakness or pattern that Sanji can then exploit to win.

Though I do get the feeling this fight is going to get aborted halfway through. Vergo's sudden appearance makes me think that he's probably got some other means of transportation other than just running around, although Monet apparently doesn't think it'll be enough to save him if CC seals the exits. Also, I could see Smoker turning around and making a beeline back to the fight after he sees Vergo's not with Ceaser.

andy

@MasterKingJC:

Since we're on the topic of male and female readers, I thought I'd share this with you guys.
A chart from another forum showing how popular each Jump series is with both genders.

http://i45.tinypic.com/209q82o.png

As you can see, the recent OP volume was more popular with female fans than male fans.

Unless we get a idea how that data was taken it really don't mean much
What was the sample size , what magzine etc etc etc .

Autumncomet

Rerailing the thread? What even is this?

I agree with your last paragraph; letting Sanji and maybe Tashigi get a few hits in on Vergo would be enough to establish their strength and then Smoker will take over and get revenge that will be as great as the fan reaction if Crocodile turns out to be a post-op FtM transmale.

I still like the idea posited earlier, that Sanji's shoe gets stuck on Vergo's face somehow during their match. That would be fantastic.

minor_runes

@andy:

Unless we get a idea how that data was taken it really don't mean much .

I'd be very interested in seeing how gender popularity breaks down by reader age, for one.

gallowsx

Cant people realise thereason why tashigi is being bet down etc is bec oda is building her up in the long term. Im pretty sure she ll end up being one of the top officials at the end of the manga together with coby in a fairer less corrupt marines…..

Aohige_AP

@MasterKingJC:

Since we're on the topic of male and female readers, I thought I'd share this with you guys.
A chart from another forum showing how popular each Jump series is with both genders.

http://i45.tinypic.com/209q82o.png

As you can see, the recent OP volume was more popular with female fans than male fans.

Ehh… I've said this in the TOC thread, the data is not based on every sale in Japan, only what they can gather.
1-2% is well within margin of error, you know.

Only thing you can take home from this is that OP readership, as well as the other two big sellers Naruto and Bleach, is pretty dead even in gender disparity.

What, you think everyone that buys a manga at a bookstore leaves their name and gender to the cashier? :wassat:
This shows general trends of the purchase, not exact figures. Duh.

Cyclone_Baroness

@Drake_Cloud:

While I'd just HAAAATE to derail the current conversation, I'm curious to see if Sanji knows Rankyaku now. If he doesn't, I could see him learning it from Vergo, Luffy-style.

Also, while I don't think Tashigi is going to be able to compete physically with Vergo enough to be all that helpful in a fight, she does presumably know alot about his fighting style and could help out that way. Sanji is after all the cleverest and trickiest of the SH (of the men anyway), and having someone who knows alot about his foe would be a great asset for him. This is after all the guy who said "I'll do what you cannot do, and you do what I cannot do" (or something like that), and Tashigi could provide information about a weakness or pattern that Sanji can then exploit to win.

Though I do get the feeling this fight is going to get aborted halfway through. Vergo's sudden appearance makes me think that he's probably got some other means of transportation other than just running around, although Monet apparently doesn't think it'll be enough to save him if CC seals the exits. Also, I could see Smoker turning around and making a beeline back to the fight after he sees Vergo's not with Ceaser.

I thought only CP9 knew all forms of that martial art? I'm sorta hoping Vergo only has a couple aspects mastered. Don't really need a Lucci part 2. I almost feel that Sanji would not learn a slashing move purely out of not having anything to overlap into Zoro's territory.

Personally I'd rank Usopp as being the trickiest since he's not really a up close and personal fighter like Sanji lol.

I also think that this fight will get interrupted since CC is planning on letting in more gas anyways.