Nardo and Bleh Thread III: Naruto is a terrible terrible manga

[Monkey King]

@Supernova122:

I don't really disagree with your rant except that it goes down one very linear line of thinking. There doesn't really need to be an actual village, just a bunch of Orochimaru's secret bases where people can be trained and stuff.

But that doesn't make sense. That would mean nobody did ANY intel on Sound at all prior to the Chunnin Exam.
In the case that there isn't actually a Village of Sound someone would have noticed. And even if they didn't notice that would make Sound a suspicious unknown factor, meaning I really friggin' doubt Leaf would have invited them to participate in the Chunnin Exam.
Chunnin Exam nothing, apparently Sound country bordered the Fire country sooooo…I think intel would have came up big time regardless.
If Sound country is new, where did it come from? A breakway feudal lord from Fire? Then Leaf ninjas would be familiar with the area.
Or is it old, they'd still know the area if it was a ninjaless border country. One does try to know the neighbors of one's patron!
That's why it would have made sense to have a real village (also more interesting).

Also, the comparison is kind of dumb, because Dressrosa is actually the setting for that arc, whereas the Sound in itself was not really relevant, it was just an arm of Orochimaru's power.

If Oda told stories like Kishimoto Dressrosa would not be relevant either, and would be explored roughly as terribly as that samurai place where that one Kage meeting "arc" was set.
Which is ignoring the fact that locations of major villain hideouts SHOULD be relevant if they're painted as being whole communities based in actual countries, rather than some cave somewhere. Kishi's take on this angle would have involved fights with Dolfa members in some generic place, with scant sights of Dressrosa.
If Kishi actually cared about world building, location would always be relevant to show and show breathing and living.

My entire point is that he either doesn't care about it, know about it, or know how to do it. That he sucks at world building. And if he was good at it Sound would never have been irrelevant.
You're thinking entirely in terms of linear plot development, the setting is never irrelevant.

[Supernova122]

See the Dressrosa-Iron Country comparison is much better . . .

Anyway, Kishi can do world building decently. I think he proved that with the Zabuza arc. He doesn't really follow through throughout and the quality of it is patchy and in general decline, but he can - or could - do it.

I see your point about the sound 'village' by the way.

But setting can be irrelevant.

[Monkey King]

@Supernova122:

See the Dressrosa-Iron Country comparison is much better . . .

Anyway, Kishi can do world building decently. I think he proved that with the Zabuza arc. He doesn't really follow through throughout and the quality of it is patchy and in general decline, but he can - or could - do it.

I see your point about the sound 'village' by the way.

But setting can be irrelevant.

The Zabuza arc was completely unremarkable. He made half an effort that one time, the kind of effort that should be considered normal and not worth praise.

[Gliblord]

If there were decent world building then I wouldn`t be left wondering how the economy works in each village when everyone is a killer by trade

Youd think theyd use their magic powers for things besides assassination and war some of the time

[Purple Hermit]

I still can't really differentiate one village from the next. Except that some feature a slightly higher amount of things that might obfuscate sight than another.

This was probably made worse as the series went on when Kishi decided that everyone's basically redeemable and even mass tyrants responsible for ridiculous decrees in their villages turned out to love their villages or were actually under some sort of mind control.

[Wagomu]

If Naruto actually did a proper war arc for what kind of series it is, there would be all sorts of espionage (since that's what ninjas do) which would make room for plenty of world-building opportunities. But that would require a location for intel to be collected from. And also and enemy that does not consist entirely of naked plantmen and half-motivated zombies led by a recovering cyclops with genetically-enhanced emotional issues.

[Monkey King]

@Gliblord:

If there were decent world building then I wouldn`t be left wondering how the economy works in each village when everyone is a killer by trade

Youd think theyd use their magic powers for things besides assassination and war some of the time

Well there are I guess, like the Ramen shop people.
But who are those people? Are they failed ninjas? Children of ninjas who never wanted to be ninjas?
Is there an entire segment of the population who provide services for the ninjas like food, plumbing, electricians, farming?
Where do they get their food? Does a portion of the Fire country's crops go to the ninjas? Or do they have their own fields?
What's the story with the Fire nation anyway, we like never learn a single damn thing about any country in this entire series except the Iron one.
If someone read all of Naruto and missed that one chapter where Kakashi gives his little geography lesson, I bet 90% of people would come away from the series thinking this was just a world where a bunch of ninja towns exist as countries, and everywhere practically is ninja towns.

At the start of the series we have a sense that there's a bigger world of nations and whatnot, and that the ninjas exist in the shadows of them handling certain aspects of society and war.
By this point, the countries almost seem irrelevant and the ninjas are the big bad end all be all of everything, and it's almost like they have no reason to even have patrons or countries.

Also even among the villages Kishi clearly lost interest in building them up. Any competent author would take the oppertunity of having different ninja lands, as being able to set up significantly different contrasting types of societies. Real early on he hints at doing this between Leaf and Mist. Leaf is clearly supposed to be the well adjusted humane society for the most part, with some antiquated extremities like the Hyuga clan stuff. Sort of the example of the stable first world democracy among the ninja, meanwhile Mist apparently is a much rougher place with really brutal laws like the thing Zabuza mentioned, making Mist maybe a country with a rough location and history that has made them really cold and efficient as a society like ninja Russia or something.
Sand was presented neutrally I guess, but there was room for expansion.

By the time later that we see Cloud, it's characterless. And the rest are no different from Leaf, hell the rough and scary Mist has friggin' Mizukage as it's boss. I guess they reformed toward something more peaceful and calm off screen? Whoopie. WORLD BUILDING.

[Wagomu]

Rock village got dick for development.

Also, the only thing that defined the Cloud village was what Kish had already written about them in part one. There's some sort of rivalry with Konoha and that's all they got to represent them as a village. And by the time we got there, that was all sort of being resolved, too.

Most of the things Kishi has done in this arc is burn down whatever he had built up.

[Bigivel]

@Monkey:

And the rest are no different from Leaf, hell the rough and scary Mist has friggin' Mizukage as it's boss. I guess they reformed toward something more peaceful and calm off screen? Whoopie. WORLD BUILDING.

I can't understand how at the time of Zabuza the Mist hated and even killed People with Blood Line, but after only 2 years their Mizukage has a Blood Line!

[Purple Hermit]

@Wagomu:

Rock village got dick for development.

Also, the only thing that defined the Cloud village was what Kish had already written about them in part one. There's some sort of rivalry with Konoha and that's all they got to represent them as a village. And by the time we got there, that was all sort of being resolved, too.

Most of the things Kishi has done in this arc is burn down whatever he had built up.

Maybe he wanted to balance things out by making the other villages less villainous and evil by also giving the leaf a bigger "dark" side by creating a secret special ops group in the special ops group of a village that should specialize in special ops. Of course, that's only if his definition of balancing things out is foregoing any sort of actual writing.

[Monkey King]

@Bigivel:

I can't understand how at the time of Zabuza the Mist hated and even killed People with Blood Line, but after only 2 years their Mizukage has a Blood Line!

A really awesome and tear jerking plot line that we never got to see or hear about.

[Nobodyman]

@Wagomu:

Rock village got dick for development.

Everyone in rock village has "Tsuchi" in their name.

….World-building!

[maxterdexter]

@Nobodyman:

Everyone in rock village has "Tsuchi" in their name.

….World-building!

Deitsuchidara .

[Purple Hermit]

@maxterdexter:

Deitsuchidara .

He left the village because he thought that was retarded.

[Monkey King]

Seeing the Akatsuki members also were way less interesting when we didn't know shit about what they had betrayed.

[maxterdexter]

@Purple:

He left the village because he thought that was retarded.

Why did he change his name, he had such a beautiful name :sad:

[Cyan D. Funk]

That reminds me, did we ever get an explanation as to why the hell Deitsuchidara had mouths on his hands?

Or why Kisame was a shark man?

Or what the fuck Zetsu is?

[Monkey King]

Also in Naruto's world they don't seem to be in a very big portion of the world…what's beyond NotAsia?
They're at the point where we have world destorying/altering powers in play, so it's extremely inexcusable to say we wouldn't know about more of the world.

[Purple Hermit]

@Cyan:

That reminds me, did we ever get an explanation as to why the hell Deitsuchidara had mouths on his hands?

Or why Kisame was a shark man?

Or what the fuck Zetsu is?

Well we got that Zetsu is an artificial human created by Madara using the first's cells and that black zetsu is a manifestation of his will I guess.

As for the others, Just their special abilities I guess.

[Nobodyman]

@maxterdexter:

Why did he change his name, he had such a beautiful name :sad:

That was his slave name.

@Cyan:

That reminds me, did we ever get an explanation as to why the hell Deitsuchidara had mouths on his hands?

Or why Kisame was a shark man?

Or what the fuck Zetsu is?

For the first two, bloodlines and forbidden techniques. The answer for everything.

As for Zetsu, I think he was Hashirama splooge or something.

EDIT: BTW, I love this paragraph that comes straight from the Naruto Wiki.

Despite being banned, the use of these techniques generally does not carry any legal consequences in respects to the village they're used in, except those brought on by the techniques themselves. However, their use is heavily frowned upon, especially those techniques that violate nature.

So don't use Forbidden Techniques, or we will strongly disapprove of it!

[Wagomu]

Wasn't the shadow clown technique forbidden and secret? And don't several characters know it?

[Bigivel]

@Wagomu:

Wasn't the shadow clown technique forbidden and secret? And don't several characters know it?

But that technique is heavily disapproved off screen!

[Primo11]

How tf does naruto have 600+ chapters and none of these things are explained? Or rather, we have such a limited view of the world after all these chapters..

Instead of a timeskip I think naruto and Jaraiya's journey to wherever the hell should have been the next arc. Ehh idk

[valiantt]

@Monkey:

Also in Naruto's world they don't seem to be in a very big portion of the world…what's beyond NotAsia?
They're at the point where we have world destorying/altering powers in play, so it's extremely inexcusable to say we wouldn't know about more of the world.

The sheer existence of Gato from the Zabuza arc makes me ponder this waayy more than I should.

PS: Using banned techniques only gets you a slap on the wrist? Pfft…

[Purple Hermit]

@Primo11:

How tf does naruto have 600+ chapters and none of these things are explained? Or rather, we have such a limited view of the world after all these chapters..

Instead of a timeskip I think naruto and Jaraiya's journey to wherever the hell should have been the next arc. Ehh idk

Probably not, considering that it sure seems like they did jack squat except try to open the seal on Naruto a wee bit.

[BlackPirate]

@Wagomu:

Wasn't the shadow clown technique forbidden and secret? And don't several characters know it?

@Bigivel:

But that technique is heavily disapproved off screen!

People who use it don't get invited to parties and other social meetings.

[Aaronrules380]

@Purple:

Probably not, considering that it sure seems like they did jack squat except try to open the seal on Naruto a wee bit.

Hey they also learned a bigger rasengan which was used once and then instantly made obsolete

[Purple Hermit]

Did anybody actually accomplish anything over the timeskip?

• Sakura knows how to heal people from what it appears to be pretty averagely to other medical nin
• Naruto got a slightly larger rasengan
• Sasuke got a sword
• Akatsuki said to wait like two years and did like jack squat during those years (they ended up capturing like three beasts after the skip, haven't caught Naruto or Bee, and supposedly they caught at least one before the skip, leaving three unaccounted for and they spent that much time capturing them?)
• Everyone else got promoted to chunin or higher but didn't really beef up in power

[MiyamotoMusashi]

@Wagomu:

Wasn't the shadow clown technique forbidden and secret? And don't several characters know it?

To be fair, i think that was referring to the big version of shadow clone, you know the one that creates a few hundred to a thousand copies, but that of course raises the question about the difference between a simple shadow clone technique and the massive one.

[Cyan D. Funk]

Why the fuck did Tobirama create the zombie bullshit technique?

I mean besides the fact that he was a jackass.

[Gliblord]

Here`s a question

Why is the shadow clone jutsu forbidden? Seems to me like the military force that masters it first wins by default

[MiyamotoMusashi]

@Gliblord:

Here`s a question

Why is the shadow clone jutsu forbidden? Seems to me like the military force that masters it first wins by default

Well, like i said above, it´s not the shadow clone but that massive shadow clone technique and apparently, it was mentioned to be forbidden because it could kill the user when used incautiously because it divides your chakra equally among the clones and apparently, once you reach a certain low, you die, though this should not be an issue considering chakra limits were only a thing in part 1.

[DSkull]

Why did Naruto instantly learn the shadow clone jutsu after failing for years at the much simpler regular clone jutsu? And no one even uses the regular clone jutsu, except Sakura that one time I think, but who cares really. Any stealth aspect for ANY of these fancy Ninja skills was killed pretty much right by the eye jutsu bullshits.

[Bigivel]

@Cyan:

Why the fuck did Tobirama create the zombie bullshit technique?

I mean besides the fact that he was a jackass.

First,Tobirama isn't a jackass! He just a strict realist(If he was a Jackass he had killed all the Uchihas in his time. I wish he would do that! Now we wouldn't have to endure Obito).
Second, What better technique let you kill your enemies and with it you can resuscitate a strong ally that doesn't die and have infinite chackra? Is like Shogi, you win twofold when you kill your enemies. Perfect technique!
Third, The technique his only seen badly, because stupid people of the village let that technique leak! Do you know who you should blame? Sarutobi for not killing Orochimaru! and Tsunade for being weak and not even been able to kill Kabuto, and Jiraya that even with the combination with weak and stupid Tsunade couldn't kill Orochimaru. And Tsunade again for not sending a super strong team(she should be part of it) to track Sasuke, and instead of stopping him, following him until Orochimaru Hideout and killing him.

[Purple Hermit]

@Bigivel:

First,Tobirama isn't a jackass! He just a strict realist(If he was a Jackass he had killed all the Uchihas in his time. I wish he would do that! Now we wouldn't have to endure Obito).
Second, What better technique let you kill your enemies and with it you can resuscitate a strong ally that doesn't die and have infinite chackra? Is like Shogi, you win twofold when you kill your enemies. Perfect technique!
Third, The technique his only seen badly, because stupid people of the village let that technique leak! Do you know who you should blame? Sarutobi for not killing Orochimaru! and Tsunade for being weak and not even been able to kill Kabuto, and Jiraya that even with the combination with weak and stupid Tsunade couldn't kill Orochimaru. And Tsunade again for not sending a super strong team(she should be part of it) to track Sasuke, and instead of stopping him, following him until Orochimaru Hideout and killing him.

Lest we ignore the moral implications of defying the natural flow of life and death by bringing back someone from the dead to follow our every whim.

[Bigivel]

@DSkull:

Why did Naruto instantly learn the shadow clone jutsu after failing for years at the much simpler regular clone jutsu? And no one even uses the regular clone jutsu, except Sakura that one time I think, but who cares really. Any stealth aspect for ANY of these fancy Ninja skills was killed pretty much right by the eye jutsu bullshits.

A better question! Why could Naruto defeat the Third Hokage, for several minutes, maybe even hours, with the Sex No Jutsu?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Purple:

Lest we ignore the moral implications of defying the natural flow of life and death by bringing back someone from the dead to follow our every whim.

But after using it you can end the jutsu! So I can't see that much of a problem of asking for temporary help from the past. Because it could easily be misused it was forbidden and a ultra secret.

[Purple Hermit]

@Bigivel:

But after using it you can end the jutsu! So I can't see that much of a problem of asking for temporary help from the past. Because it could easily be misused it was forbidden and a ultra secret.

Well you /could/ do that if there were no worries.

But on the other hand the technique requires you to sacrifice a living person as the vessel for the dead dude to come back in.

[Bigivel]

@Purple:

Well you /could/ do that if there were no worries.

But on the other hand the technique requires you to sacrifice a living person as the vessel for the dead dude to come back in.

Enemies! There never existed a better use of enemies!

Orochimaru is stupid for using is own man! This bring the story of "what is made the sound village?", because he kills four of his mans, without visible repercussions.

How was Kabuto able to kill hundreds(or thousands?) of people without nobody noticing? And how the hell did he knew of people like Tsunade lover, the previous chief of the village of the rain, Sai's brother and many others?

[Gliblord]

@Bigivel:

Enemies! There never existed a better use of enemies!

Orochimaru is stupid for using is own man! This bring the story of "what is made the sound village?", because he kills four of his mans, without visible repercussions.

How was Kabuto able to kill hundreds(or thousands?) of people without nobody noticing? And how the hell did he knew of people like Tsunade lover, the previous chief of the village of the rain, Sai's brother and many others?

Kabuto`s number one war priority was to close plot threads

[Daz]

@Bigivel:

Enemies! There never existed a better use of enemies!

Orochimaru is stupid for using is own man! This bring the story of "what is made the sound village?", because he kills four of his mans, without visible repercussions.

How was Kabuto able to kill hundreds(or thousands?) of people without nobody noticing? And how the hell did he knew of people like Tsunade lover, the previous chief of the village of the rain, Sai's brother and many others?

Or in other words: Its not wrong to use live human sacrifices to raise the dead as immortal soldiers, as long as the "nice" people do it using the "bad" people

[Gliblord]

Like Ive said before, how does one go about inventing a jutsu anyway? Let alone one thats so different from every other jutsu

[Purple Hermit]

@Gliblord:

Like Ive said before, how does one go about inventing a jutsu anyway? Let alone one thats so different from every other jutsu

You think that's bad? Well, actually, it's really terrible. But how do you go about evolving your sharingan.

The steps as detailed are

• Suffer a really strong loss of someone close. Sure I buy it but then the next step is…
• Kill your best friend/someone really close to you. Jesus christ, it's a wonder the Uchiha were even a threat if they killed each other only to get blinded through over use unless you...
• Take your bro's eyes. Wtf? And Madara was the first guy who did this? How would they know that taking your brother's eyes would result in unlimited usage of the Mangekyo Sharingan?

[MiyamotoMusashi]

@Purple:

You think that's bad? Well, actually, it's really terrible. But how do you go about evolving your sharingan.

The steps as detailed are

• Suffer a really strong loss of someone close. Sure I buy it but then the next step is…
• Kill your best friend/someone really close to you. Jesus christ, it's a wonder the Uchiha were even a threat if they killed each other only to get blinded through over use unless you...
• Take your bro's eyes. Wtf? And Madara was the first guy who did this? How would they know that taking your brother's eyes would result in unlimited usage of the Mangekyo Sharingan?

It´s all written on a mystique stone tablet nobody knows a fuck about

[ponx]

@Gliblord:

Like Ive said before, how does one go about inventing a jutsu anyway? Let alone one thats so different from every other jutsu

It's probably similar to how old recipes were invented, accidents. Like a chicken got caught in a fire and people realized it smelled kinda delicious, or a tea leaf fell into a kettle of boiling water and the water tasted better.

[Gliblord]

@ponx:

It's probably similar to how old recipes were invented, accidents. Like a chicken got caught in a fire and people realized it smelled kinda delicious, or a tea leaf fell into a kettle of boiling water and the water tasted better.

Or you dropped a corpse onto a tomb that happened to be covered in seal tags and out pops a surprise mindslave super zombie

[Smiley]

@Gliblord:

Or you dropped a corpse onto a tomb that happened to be covered in seal tags and out pops a surprise mindslave super zombie

That sures alot of coincidences.

[Supernova122]

@Monkey:

The Zabuza arc was completely unremarkable. He made half an effort that one time, the kind of effort that should be considered normal and not worth praise.

If it 'should be considered normal', then it surely is 'decent'. Which is what I said.

@Bigivel:

I can't understand how at the time of Zabuza the Mist hated and even killed People with Blood Line, but after only 2 years their Mizukage has a Blood Line!

This annoys me. Not because there's any inherent contradiction, but because the transformation of the Mist is actually INTERESTING and closely linked with events that happen (insofar as we meet Zabuza and Kimimaro and so on, and we see Kisame's flashbacks, we know about Tobitobitobito's control of that village for a time …) but we don't even get like one speech bubble as a nod to the reader's interest.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Cyan:

Why the fuck did Tobirama create the zombie bullshit technique?

I mean besides the fact that he was a jackass.

Probably to win wars.

I suspect he sacrificed captured enemies and summoned dead allies.

[Wagomu]

@ponx:

It's probably similar to how old recipes were invented, accidents. Like a chicken got caught in a fire and people realized it smelled kinda delicious, or a tea leaf fell into a kettle of boiling water and the water tasted better.

Hey there little brother! Got your nose, got your nose, GOT YOUR EYES. AND NOW THEY'RE GOING INTO MY EYES.

[Maju]

@Monkey:

Well there are I guess, like the Ramen shop people.
But who are those people? Are they failed ninjas? Children of ninjas who never wanted to be ninjas?
Is there an entire segment of the population who provide services for the ninjas like food, plumbing, electricians, farming?
Where do they get their food? Does a portion of the Fire country's crops go to the ninjas? Or do they have their own fields?
What's the story with the Fire nation anyway, we like never learn a single damn thing about any country in this entire series except the Iron one.
If someone read all of Naruto and missed that one chapter where Kakashi gives his little geography lesson, I bet 90% of people would come away from the series thinking this was just a world where a bunch of ninja towns exist as countries, and everywhere practically is ninja towns.

At the start of the series we have a sense that there's a bigger world of nations and whatnot, and that the ninjas exist in the shadows of them handling certain aspects of society and war.
By this point, the countries almost seem irrelevant and the ninjas are the big bad end all be all of everything, and it's almost like they have no reason to even have patrons or countries.

Also even among the villages Kishi clearly lost interest in building them up. Any competent author would take the oppertunity of having different ninja lands, as being able to set up significantly different contrasting types of societies. Real early on he hints at doing this between Leaf and Mist. Leaf is clearly supposed to be the well adjusted humane society for the most part, with some antiquated extremities like the Hyuga clan stuff. Sort of the example of the stable first world democracy among the ninja, meanwhile Mist apparently is a much rougher place with really brutal laws like the thing Zabuza mentioned, making Mist maybe a country with a rough location and history that has made them really cold and efficient as a society like ninja Russia or something.
Sand was presented neutrally I guess, but there was room for expansion.

By the time later that we see Cloud, it's characterless. And the rest are no different from Leaf, hell the rough and scary Mist has friggin' Mizukage as it's boss. I guess they reformed toward something more peaceful and calm off screen? Whoopie. WORLD BUILDING.

there was a theory that said that people rock lee are the norm,and ninja are the exception..but given the main focus of the story we just look at the ninjas and not at everyone else,the people who can't use "magic" and thus decide to do other jobs in the village.
but the fact that this is a theory,pretty much testify for the fact that naruto has bad world building.

@Bigivel:

I can't understand how at the time of Zabuza the Mist hated and even killed People with Blood Line, but after only 2 years their Mizukage has a Blood Line!

the ones who hated bloodline people were "common people",you know,the kind we barely have seen since the zabuza arc..it wouldn't make sense for people of a ninja village to hate instruments of war,that's kinda how their village runs,on war

[zachri]

How the hell does one put someone elses eyes into their own?
Eyes aren't like sponges bro!