General 'Haki' Discussion

pRopaaNS

Look, if Kizaru says "have you ever been kicked at the speed of light?", I have no reason to believe he's lying.

lolol. To begin I'm not sure if that translation carries same context as what he said in original japanese language. But that doesn't really matter, because not everything what is said by characters in manga is supposed to be fact. What about Usopp, isn't he lying all the time?
If you ask me then I can guess that it maybe is a catchphrase for Kizaru. But regardless of what he said it doesn't look like he actually kicked at speed of light, or does it look that way for you? I'm confused, because if that's "speed of light" then I'm not sure anymore what speed of light even is for you.

Shadowgreed

King Cannon

@madriano:

No reason to believe it's true either, specially coming from Kizaru.

But Oda is the one writing his dialogue.

When it comes to explaining powers and abilities, characters have no reason to lie.

@pRopaaNS:

lolol. To begin I'm not sure if that translation carries same context as what he said in original japanese language. But that doesn't really matter, because not everything what is said by characters in manga is supposed to be fact. What about Usopp, isn't he lying all the time?
If you ask me then I can guess that it maybe is a catchphrase for Kizaru. But regardless of what he said it doesn't look like he actually kicked at speed, or does it look that way for you? I'm confused, because if that's "speed of light" then I'm not sure what speed of light even is.

Usopp lies because that's his quirk.

Kizaru is not known for lying. I have no reason to believe Oda is making him lie about his powers.

If you want to be mad about this, then direct it at Oda for ruining physics for his fictional pirate comic book.

pRopaaNS

@King:

Usopp lies because that's his quirk.

Kizaru is not known for lying. I have no reason to believe Oda is making him lie about his powers.

If you want to be mad about this, then direct it at Oda for ruining physics for his fictional pirate comic book.

Why would you take it as "lie" if some of Oda's written characters aren't telling the truth. They're not Oda. It's all fiction anyway and basis of fiction is to tell frilled up stories whose aren't true in a credible manner. I don't know what even think about your argument.

Anyway, speed of light is - 299 792 458 m / s. Meaning that if KIzaru used light speed for 1/10000nd of a single second then he'd move 29980 meters far away from where he stands. Even if he was able to preceive speed at 1/100000000 of second he'd have 3 meters error margin when moving at light speed. Makes no sense to me that he've ever have even need to move at actual speed of light, regardless if he can actually do that.

Shadowgreed

King Cannon

@pRopaaNS:

Why would you take it as "lie" if some of Oda's written characters aren't telling the truth. They're not Oda. It's all fiction anyway and basis of fiction is to tell frilled up stories whose aren't true in a credible manner. I don't know what even think about your argument.

Because it falls into exposition, which is very rarely not true.

In order to inform the readers about abilities and stuff, he makes the character speak about it.

This is why random bystanders/henchmen are usually right about everything they witness.

@pRopaaNS:

Anyway, speed of light is - 299 792 458 m / s. Meaning that if KIzaru used light speed for 1/10000nd of a single second then he'd move 29980 meters far away from where he stands. Even if he was able to preceive speed at 1/100000000 speed he'd have 3 meters error margin when moving at light speed. Makes no sense to me that he've ever have even need to move at actual speed of light, regardless if he can actually do that.

The problem here seems to be your lack of suspension of disbelief.

Ace 4

@pRopaaNS:

Why would you take it as "lie" if some of Oda's written characters aren't telling the truth. They're not Oda. It's all fiction anyway and basis of fiction is to tell frilled up stories whose aren't true in a credible manner. I don't know what even think about your argument.

Anyway, speed of light is - 299 792 458 m / s. Meaning that if KIzaru used light speed for 1/10000nd of a single second then he'd move 29980 meters far away from where he stands. Even if he was able to preceive speed at 1/100000000 of second he'd have 3 meters error margin when moving at light speed. Makes no sense to me that he've ever have even need to move at actual speed of light, regardless if he can actually do that.

You really can't deny the fact that Kizaru is able to move at light speed since he actually turns into photons.

Tangaroa

Or maybe Kizaru just thought it was a really cool line to say. Maybe he practises it in the mirror, off-panel.

madriano

@King:

Because it falls into exposition, which is very rarely not true.

In order to inform the readers about abilities and stuff, he makes the character speak about it.

This is why random bystanders/henchmen are usually right about everything they witness.

If he was actually explaining his abilities I would buy it, no problem. But the way he said it sounds more like a catchphrase than anything.

Here are the only things I can think to make the Kizaru powers believable.

1. Kizaru can't actually move at the speed of light.
2. The speed of light in OP is different.
3. The top players at OP world can move almost fast as the speed of light.

I'm inclined to think it's the either the first or the second option.

King Cannon

Kizaru states he can move at the speed of light.

Kizaru can turn into light.

What more do you guys want?!

Shadowgreed

@King:

Kizaru states he can move at the speed of light.

Kizaru can turn into light.

What more do you guys want?!

Kizaru wasting 5 pages where he goes into a deep history about his ability

King Cannon

@Shadowgreed:

Kizaru wasting 5 pages where he goes into a deep history about his ability

And then having him travel through different planets in minutes.

Finishing with a space fight against Enel near the moon.

Shadowgreed

@King:

And then having him travel through different planets in minutes.

Finishing with a space fight against Enel near the moon.

you misspelled one-shot Enel while being in time to drink his tea

airy-0

What makes it so hard to believe that his logia fruit allows him to control the distance/time he goes for during his form as light?

After all his fruit gives him control over light. If he wills it, he can do it.

The slowness of Kizaru I think comes from the time to dissolve into photons and thinking/activating transformations.
Arguably because light is much harder to control than most other logias, it might be harder for him to use it all the time. Therefore not making him ridiculously overpowered.

MasterKingJC

Even if Oda put a narration that specifically stated that Kizaru can attack at approximately 299,792 km per second, there will still be some people that won't believe.

It's best to not even get into the argument anyway.

PhoenixBoosh

Logic doesn't exist in manga.

usopp will have coc

@madriano:

If Kizaru could really move at speed of light no one else in the OP world have a chance agaisnt him.

bb have a chance.because light cant escape black hole(idk if this theory true)

Dohs

@pRopaaNS:

lolol. To begin I'm not sure if that translation carries same context as what he said in original japanese language. But that doesn't really matter, because not everything what is said by characters in manga is supposed to be fact. What about Usopp, isn't he lying all the time?
If you ask me then I can guess that it maybe is a catchphrase for Kizaru. But regardless of what he said it doesn't look like he actually kicked at speed of light, or does it look that way for you? I'm confused, because if that's "speed of light" then I'm not sure anymore what speed of light even is for you.

Usopp isn't lying, he just confuses past with future :)

Shadowgreed

@Dohs:

Usopp isn't lying, he just confuses past with future :)

As a Ussop fan I love this line and I wish Ussop can say it in the manga

SirCaesar

Maybe I'm thinking too much, but… I was rereading the Alabasta arc, and noticed a strange thing. In the first fight between Crocodile and Luffy, Crocodile actually dodges the first punch (http://bato.to/read/_/213210/one-piece_v20_ch177_by_nitoryu/18 ).
Why should he? He can clearly see that Luffy's fist is not wet.

Only explanation I can think of is that he thinks Luffy could be using haki, being the relatively expert pirate he is at Alabasta.
Also notice that he practically never dodges any other punch after that. So in my opinion this is an example of haki foreshadowing

Shadowgreed

@SirCaesar:

Maybe I'm thinking too much, but… I was rereading the Alabasta arc, and noticed a strange thing. In the first fight between Crocodile and Luffy, Crocodile actually dodges the first punch (http://bato.to/read/_/213210/one-piece_v20_ch177_by_nitoryu/18 ).
Why should he? He can clearly see that Luffy's fist is not wet.

Only explanation I can think of is that he thinks Luffy could be using haki, being the relatively expert pirate he is at Alabasta.
Also notice that he practically never dodges any other punch after that. So in my opinion this is an example of haki foreshadowing

This was the page you were looking for
[hide][/hide]

SirCaesar

@Shadowgreed:

This was the page you were looking for
[hide]http://img.bato.to/comics/2014/03/15/o/read53244162c5a6e/img000015.png[/hide]

Well actually I always thought that in this page he was talking about the fact that Luffy discovered his weak point (water).

Whackadoodle

@SirCaesar:

Why should he?

Well, it's possibly he's concerned about haki, but it's also possible he was just showing off. You know, making the point about how superior he is to this no-name rookie.

Shadowgreed

@SirCaesar:

Well actually I always thought that in this page he was talking about the fact that Luffy discovered his weak point (water).

nah, it seems more like he's thinking about Haki rather then he discovered my weak point, that's how interpreted that scene anyway.

SirCaesar

@Shadowgreed:

nah, it seems more like he's thinking about Haki rather then he discovered my weak point, that's how interpreted that scene anyway.

Both are possible I guess. I was more interested in the one I mentioned before because I see no other possible explanation to that dodge.

desa

@SirCaesar:

Both are possible I guess. I was more interested in the one I mentioned before because I see no other possible explanation to that dodge.

Proving he isn't that weak. I doubt he expected such a rookie to have haki.

Razh

I don't think it holds any deeper meaning. Dodging punches should be instinctual to a seasoned fighter like him.

Sure, he wasn't dodging anything later on, since he saw there's no danger.

airy-0

I noticed a lot of people on the chapter discussion thread saying that Doffy didn't use CoA or something to defend against Luffy's punch.

Is it a stretch to say that his class of fighters can basically always keep a small amount of CoA up? Even if taken by surprise.

Shadowgreed

@airy-0:

I noticed a lot of people on the chapter discussion thread saying that Doffy didn't use CoA or something to defend against Luffy's punch.

Is it a stretch to say that his class of fighters can basically always keep a small amount of CoA up? Even if taken by surprise.

Yes it is !

desa

@airy-0:

I noticed a lot of people on the chapter discussion thread saying that Doffy didn't use CoA or something to defend against Luffy's punch.

Is it a stretch to say that his class of fighters can basically always keep a small amount of CoA up? Even if taken by surprise.

Yep it is. We're already struggling with passive CoO.

MasterKingJC

Let's not forget that Red Hawk is a high-speed Armament Hardening punch. If Doflamingo had a thin layer of CoA up, it makes sense that Red Hawk would have broken through it.

Russbuspower

@Whackadoodle:

Well, it's possibly he's concerned about haki, but it's also possible he was just showing off. You know, making the point about how superior he is to this no-name rookie.

he could be concerned about haki but there are tons of points in the WB war saga where he doesn't even try to dodge attacks from people who obviously use haki. That might mean that he could tell they weren't using haki in their attacks. Yet he still dodged Luffy's attack… Interesting point that Caesar brought to attention I truly never noticed

Shadowgreed

@Russbuspower:

he could be concerned about haki but there are tons of points in the WB war saga where he doesn't even try to dodge attacks from people who obviously use haki. That might mean that he could tell they weren't using haki in their attacks. Yet he still dodged Luffy's attack… Interesting point that Caesar brought to attention I truly never noticed

Ummm how many people did he fought during the war?

pRopaaNS

If you ask me then Crocodile was just fighting suicidal in this war and got lucky that nobody killed him. Iirc after getting imprisoned he got chance to get out of jail when miss Goldenweek broke them out of jail, but refused because he had lost interest in everything. I'm just saying that I'm not sure whenever he really cared about surviving. He went straigth after WBs head just after landing in war zone and didn't care much even after his head got cut off by DD.

airy-0

If the consensus is that they don't really passively keep up a small coat of CoA, does that mean their bodies are just exponentially more durable?

Russbuspower

@Shadowgreed:

Ummm how many people did he fought during the war?

I just read saga but I'm certain he had confrontations with Mihawk and Doflamingo… Fellow SBs that Croco should have no trouble dodging seeing as he should know exactly how they fight... I mean Doflo knew him well enough to offer him a position in his organization...

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@pRopaaNS:

If you ask me then Crocodile was just fighting suicidal in this war and got lucky that nobody killed him. Iirc after getting imprisoned he got chance to get out of jail when miss Goldenweek broke them out of jail, but refused because he had lost interest in everything. I'm just saying that I'm not sure whenever he really cared about surviving. He went straigth after WBs head just after landing in war zone and didn't care much even after his head got cut off by DD.

Yeah but we have no idea how long ago it was that Croco fought WB (or do we?). I mean Squardo didn't show any great fighting prowess but he was able to make a hole in WB that Ace wasn't even able to do when WB was asleep. Croc is a smart character, he surely realized that WB is weaker now and just wanted to take advantage of WB and take revenge.

Shadowgreed

@Russbuspower:

I just read saga but I'm certain he had confrontations with Mihawk and Doflamingo… Fellow SBs that Croco should have no trouble dodging seeing as he should know exactly how they fight... I mean Doflo knew him well enough to offer him a position in his organization...

Ahh yeah, now I remember but because they're part of the same group doesn't mean that they should know each other entirely and they only meet for reunions and stuff Shishi related

Russbuspower

@Shadowgreed:

Ahh yeah, now I remember but because they're part of the same group doesn't mean that they should know each other entirely and they only meet for reunions and stuff Shishi related

Yeah but Akainu makes a reference to Jimbei about how he should know Akainu's power because they are in the same organization. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that SB know the power of each other. Hell, Doflo had enough knowledge of Moriah's power to know that he could easily take him on and eliminate him, an order he took without hesitation.

Shadowgreed

@Russbuspower:

Yeah but Akainu makes a reference to Jimbei about how he should know Akainu's power because they are in the same organization. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that SB know the power of each other. Hell, Doflo had enough knowledge of Moriah's power to know that he could easily take him on and eliminate him, an order he took without hesitation.

I was actually reading some chapters from the war a few hours back and that got me thinking, but I just deduced that Jimbi as a fishman and representative of Fishman Island had more interaction with the WG/Marines then any other Shishibukai. Dofla is a cocky man and was just following orders also he attacked Moria alongside Pacifistas, not that he needed them.

Bear in mind that Mihawk doesn't assist does meeting and when he went it was because he had interest on the subject, the same might apply to Dofla since his answer to Sengoku was that the business is going well.

Rivaille

Do you think that Law has CoA?
I mean with what we seen during the last two chapters he had no use of it and we can safely assume that he never uses it :wassat:
The Ope Ope no mi is that OP.
So i wonder if he bothers to learn it.

Magi

@Rivaille:

Do you think that Law has CoA?
I mean with what we seen during the last two chapters he had no use of it and we can safely assume that he never uses it :wassat:
The Ope Ope no mi is that OP.
So i wonder if he bothers to learn it.

It was stated that he had it all the way back in punk hazard.

_Hayato

@Rivaille:

Do you think that Law has CoA?
I mean with what we seen during the last two chapters he had no use of it and we can safely assume that he never uses it :wassat:
The Ope Ope no mi is that OP.
So i wonder if he bothers to learn it.

Okay um, I'll assume you interpreted the last 2 chapters as Law not using CoA against Trebol right? Well yes that's true, due to his room.
Think of his powers as literally an operating room, he's the surgeon and that he has all the "tools" available.

His regular cuts/incisions in his room are amputations. "Radio Knife" isn't a regular cut/incision however and that whoever is cut, regardless of what type of body - they have cannot reform (for a few minutes). [hide][/hide]

His attacks like Scalpel can make someone bleed when not used correctly (Doflamingo's cheeks) assuming they were in the room (we'll see next episode in the anime for confirmation).

Now you might think why doesn't he just imbue his incisions with CoA and cut/inflict damage that way? He can use CoA, and he did use it against Vergo. However like I'm trying to explain, in his room, depending on what "tools" he uses, the effect is all the same - only that his CoA defeated Vergo's CoA.

Hope that helped.

Rivaille

@Magi: Where? Iirc he never said he had it, he just ask Luffy who had it in his crew ? But i maybe wrong.

@ Hayato: The thing with Vergo is that i was under the impression that Law didn't use CoA there but just his fruit.
I mean we knew from Smoker that if you don't have a strong enough CoA you cannot resist his cutting ability , after that we got Dofla explain to us that Vergo's haki is so strong that he is not affected by Law's cutting ability…and finally Law cut through it.
So i was thinking that maybe it was a way for Oda to show us that Law is stronger than before (even stronger than what Dofla expect).

Beside, Law told us that using his fruit is tiresome so why use two techniques against Trebol when one good slash with Coa would finish the job?

Admiral Issho

@Rivaille:

@Magi: Where? Iirc he never said he had it, he just ask Luffy who had it in his crew ? But i maybe wrong.

@ Hayato: The thing with Vergo is that i was under the impression that Law didn't use CoA there but just his fruit.
I mean we knew from Smoker that if you don't have a strong enough CoA you cannot resist his cutting ability , after that we got Dofla explain to us that Vergo's haki is so strong that he is not affected by Law's cutting ability…and finally Law cut through it.
So i was thinking that maybe it was a way for Oda to show us that Law is stronger than before (even stronger than what Dofla expect).

Beside, Law told us that using his fruit is tiresome so why use two techniques against Trebol when one good slash with Coa would finish the job?

http://bato.to/read/_/151047/one-piece_v68_ch668_by_mangarule/20

here stated by luffy and it should be CoA CoO makes no sense in the context

Rivaille

My bad i forgot about this :wassat:

So i guess, him not using it against Trebol was a plot device.

Magi

@Rivaille:

My bad i forgot about this :wassat:

So i guess, him not using it against Trebol was a plot device.

It's not.

The spatial cut he does in his room only separates the target. It does no damage.

_Hayato

@Rivaille:

@Magi: Where? Iirc he never said he had it, he just ask Luffy who had it in his crew ? But i maybe wrong.

@ Hayato: The thing with Vergo is that i was under the impression that Law didn't use CoA there but just his fruit.
I mean we knew from Smoker that if you don't have a strong enough CoA you cannot resist his cutting ability , after that we got Dofla explain to us that Vergo's haki is so strong that he is not affected by Law's cutting ability…and finally Law cut through it.
So i was thinking that maybe it was a way for Oda to show us that Law is stronger than before (even stronger than what Dofla expect).

Beside, Law told us that using his fruit is tiresome so why use two techniques against Trebol when one good slash with Coa would finish the job?

Yes, that Vergo cut was to show us that Law (Haki) is stronger than what Doflamingo remembers. However to be fair, with Law's DF, he only needs his Haki/CoA to be a tiny bit stronger than Vergo's for it to be effective. Remember (going by definitions now), if your Haki/CoA is stronger or equal then the Haki/CoA attacks done to you - is ineffective or have no effect. Law's power however, just need a tiny bit of difference between Haki/CoA for it to work - so we don't actually know how much stronger his Haki/CoA is than Vergo.

Also you mean drop his room? Well 1) He already had it up though. 2) I actually think that's even more hard on him to close it (then possibly need to re-open it later). 3) It's not like he didn't have ways to deal with Trébol inside his room. 4) We've never actually seen Law fight without his room, if you ask me that's even more strange if he dropped it to cut someone. 5) I don't know? He's a doctor? LOL.

Razh

@Magi:

It's not.

The spatial cut he does in his room only separates the target. It does no damage.

You know that for a fact? Maybe he controls whether his sword cuts for real or not.

Even so, it wouldn't be much of a bother to just dimiss the Room and cut Trebol's head off with Haki.

Magi

@Razh:

You know that for a fact? Maybe he controls whether his sword cuts for real or not.

What do you mean?
Everything Law has cut with that attack was only separated and never damaged.

It was already explained by smoker that his ability allows him to remodel the world around him.

That's all his abilities did.

-Shambles
-Tact
-Scan

They were all moves that allowed him to remodel something in his room.

His devil fruit clearly isn't a destructive one.

Of course Law can choose to cut something or not if he doesn't use his DF abilities in conjunction with his sword.

Rivaille

The last chapter pretty much confirmed that swordsman do not use koka on their blade.
So we will not see black blades everywhere by EOS