Dragonball Discussion
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Hah, so if Bardock kills Chill, wouldn't he erase Freeza from existence?
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Aren't Bardock and that alien kid doing pretty much exactly what Trunks and Tapion were doing in movie 13?
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Hah, so if Bardock kills Chill, wouldn't he erase Freeza from existence?
That assumes Chilled is the only one of his race alive.
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@Yuugi's:
That assumes Chilled is the only one of his race alive.
I just thought it would be funny if Freeza went "poof" in a present day scene.
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Gonna make a prediction: I think Berry will be killed by Chilled and Bardock will go Super Saiyan.
I don't know, just went with it XD. -
I wonder if they would animate this 3 part thing as a ""special"". I do like the fact that Bardock is an unwanted time traveler.
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Chilled looks like he could use some hours at the gym. Someone with a pot belly like that should not be wearing space lederhosen.
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Hey guys, just dropped by to say episode 2 is out:
http://mangastream.com/read/dragon_ball_episode_of_bardock/72235495/1 -
I like this special.
Is officially confirmed as canon? -
Hah, so if Bardock kills Chill, wouldn't he erase Freeza from existence?
It shouldn't, since we know time-travel in the Dragon Ball world means different realities (Trunks)….. or maybe that's only Bulma machine.... who knows....
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It's non canon .
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Well I'm gonna take it as canon. Because I like it.
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Again, this is no official over-arching canon for the franchise. Don't base how you feel about a spin-off based on whether or not it is 'canon', just like it for what it is.
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@Yuugi's:
Again, this is no official over-arching canon for the franchise. Don't base how you feel about a spin-off based on whether or not it is 'canon', just like it for what it is.
This is such bullshit, stop talking about canon like you have any idea what it means.
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Dragon Ball's canon is the 519 chapters written by Toriyama + Trunks: The Story special chapter + arguably the Bardock special because it's directly referenced in the manga.
Nothing more, nothing less.
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Well in the manga we only know Bardock was killed by Freeza but we do see a pic that does seem like he gets killed by a sort of ki blast from Freeza
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He died the exact same way he did in the special.
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I do not recal bardock in the Dragonball manga…I want a pic of that scene
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I do not recal bardock in the Dragonball manga…I want a pic of that scene
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@metteminne:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ygPapkna8Po/SZcab8h8usI/AAAAAAAAAKw/p94iU2onhEg/s400/bardock_manga_1.jpg
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/7229/341825-1330046_bardock_manga_2_super_super.jpg
DAMN….I don't even remember that, thanks for uploading that pic
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I found the fact that he's in raging blast 2 is ridiculous. Too bad the games are awful. http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Tarble
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DAMN….I don't even remember that, thanks for uploading that pic
Didn't upload it , had to find it on the webs , damn dutch editions that I can't upload.
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Dragon Ball's canon is the 519 chapters written by Toriyama + Trunks: The Story special chapter + arguably the Bardock special because it's directly referenced in the manga.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If everyone would just go ahead and believe this, that'd be a lot better. Canon, as far as DBZ goes, isn't that hard to understand… "Quest For the Dragonballs" to "Majin Buu".
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@Monkey:
This is such bullshit, stop talking about canon like you have any idea what it means.
Not even close.
"Canon" as a term implies that there is a set amount of rules when it comes to Dragonball continuity. No one, ever, in the history of the anime or manga industry, ever formed a Dragonball "canon" we can look back on. TOEI, Akira Toriyama, to them there is no Dragonball "canon" just Dragonball. The canon in Dragonball is completely based off the fan reaction and fan belief rather than official material.
The only indications of Dragonball continuity is Toriyama's comments on them. Once he said he considered all the movies (and anime filler too I believe) to exist in alternate stories/timelines, including Dragonball Evolution. He also said he considered Dragonball GT to be a side-story, and that Dragonball Online is a continuation of the manga.
These are absolutely the only indications of continuity in the entire series, from the main man himself.
Then there's TOEI which they consider pretty much everything they create exist in the same continuity…characters like SSJ4 Goku, Broly, Slug, Bojack, Cooler are constantly pushed into products from the series. Even in Miracle Battle Carddass (Dragonball, One Piece, Toriko card game) the games have a bunch of Dragonball + TOEI originals on par with "canon" One Piece and Toriko characters. TOEI doesn't give a shit to create a "canon" to the series.
Then there's Daizenshuu, which are completely compiled by a completely unrelated group of people (I forgot the name of their company, though...) which does have it's own timeline for the anime.
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@Luke:
Even in Miracle Battle Carddass (Dragonball, One Piece, Toriko card game) the games have a bunch of Dragonball + TOEI originals on par with "canon" One Piece and Toriko characters. TOEI doesn't give a shit to create a "canon" to the series.
Is that seriously the name? L O L
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Is that seriously the name? L O L
That's seriously the name of a series of card games in Japan(DragonBall, One Piece, and Toriko(Possibly others))
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Also on Bardock: Just because it looks like the Bardock special happens in continuity with the manga, doesn't mean it does.
To be specific, Toriyama himself has stated that if he were to do it, he probably would've done it differently, if that's any indication.
But to be fair, I highly doubt Toriyama distinguishes anything as separate continuities aside from the movies which he's specifically stated they are. I also highly doubt he cares, especially nowadays.
Also if it lends to any credit, Toriyama did create Chilled himself. He also gave his blessing to Ooshi basically saying, "This is the only way you're going to get more Dragonball manga." and both seem to be close friends.
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@Luke:
But to be fair, I highly doubt Toriyama distinguishes anything as separate continuities aside from the movies which he's specifically stated they are. I also highly doubt he remembers, especially nowadays.
Fixed that for you. Although, sometimes I swear he's trolling during his interview to get people to compliment him, or compliment himself?
AT: "This character's awesome, wish I had thought of it…. Oh! I did? laughs"
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New Dragon Ball SD manga is out on mangastream for anyone interested.
Edit: I didn't read the first two chapters, so I didn't know what I was getting in.
But, I'm kinda confused on how Cell regurgitated both #17 and #18 and still managed to keep his semi-imperfect form. -
Well that was stupid.
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What's the sense of DB SD anyway?
It retells the story in a childish way and is in color … OK, I like the colors.Chapter was meh. Kinda destroyed all the drama from the original
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I'm trying to figure out what the whole point Dragon Ball SD? A parody?! Then its a pretty bad parody. This ain't no Spaceballs also DB is already kids manga so this whole 'younger approach' is just a bastardization of the series.
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It looks like the same lady who drew the Bardock special also drew SD. If so, she must really like Dragon Ball. (And she must be tired from drawing one after the other)
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It looks like the same guy who drew the Bardock special also drew SD. If so, he must really like Dragon Ball. (And he must be tired from drawing one after the other)
Actually I believe the artist(Naho Ooishi) is a woman.
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Actually I believe the artist(Naho Ooishi) is a woman.
Well you learn something new everyday. I didn't know that at all.
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Do you know what that chapter reminded me of?
Other than that, I have the same issues with it as the last chapter - it removed all tension and emotion from the series, and there's no real reason why it should exist if it's just retelling the series in an extremely condensed format.
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Yeah Dragonball SD is just pretty meh, at least the first chapter covered an original story of some sort.
This is just a boring rehash with chibi characters.
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@Luke:
"Canon" as a term implies that there is a set amount of rules when it comes to Dragonball continuity.
Canon is a basic concept, there is no set idea of set to it besides the most DUH obvious basis. Just because Star Wars and DC went and made the lines clear doesn't suddenly make that usurp the basic idea. They also were essentially forced to.
The basic concept is simple, the original line of the story as by the creator. The 219 chapters of the manga plus specials is the dominant canon, and inarguably a realm unto itself that doesn't mesh with the films or anime. That this hasn't been made "official" doesn't matter much at all. If you'd like to argue that definition as the canon go ahead.
No one, ever, in the history of the anime or manga industry, ever formed a Dragonball "canon" we can look back on. TOEI, Akira Toriyama, to them there is no Dragonball "canon" just Dragonball. The canon in Dragonball is completely based off the fan reaction and fan belief rather than official material.
It takes all of two pints of basic fucking common sense to comprehend a reasonable range of canon for something as simple as Dragonball.
The only indications of Dragonball continuity is Toriyama's comments on them. Once he said he considered all the movies (and anime filler too I believe) to exist in alternate stories/timelines, including Dragonball Evolution. He also said he considered Dragonball GT to be a side-story, and that Dragonball Online is a continuation of the manga.
The plain fact that the stories in the anime + GT, the various films, do not fit with the manga or even eachother without severe continuity problems is the first and most obvious indication that they don't exist in the same canon as eachother.
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@Monkey:
Canon is a basic concept, there is no set idea of set to it besides the most DUH obvious basis. Just because Star Wars and DC went and made the lines clear doesn't suddenly make that usurp the basic idea. They also were essentially forced to.
The basic concept is simple, the original line of the story as by the creator. The 219 chapters of the manga plus specials is the dominant canon, and inarguably a realm unto itself that doesn't mesh with the films or anime. That this hasn't been made "official" doesn't matter much at all. If you'd like to argue that definition as the canon go ahead.
It takes all of two pints of basic fucking common sense to comprehend a reasonable range of canon for something as simple as Dragonball.
The plain fact that the stories in the anime + GT, the various films, do not fit with the manga or even eachother without severe continuity problems is the first and most obvious indication that they don't exist in the same canon as eachother.
Absolutely misguided and wrong on every level possible. For one you're using the term "canon" wrong. Canon IS official. It's meant to be the official word on what is, and what isn't. Canon is formed by whoever owns the property in question, whoever created the series. If something is said to be "canon" by them, it is canon.
The term canon originated as official word on what is and what isn't when it came to the Bible. It's an official word, basically.
The Dragonball "canon" as is, is just fan-canon. We don't know who considers what canon. Not even Toriyama himself.
What you're thinking of is "continuity." Every story has it's own "continuity" in some form or another, shared or not. Including Dragonball, the movies, etc.
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@Luke:
Absolutely misguided and wrong on every level possible.
What are you. Trying to out me me? You have none of the grace.
For one you're using the term "canon" wrong. Canon IS official. It's meant to be the official word on what is, and what isn't. Canon is formed by whoever owns the property in question, whoever created the series. If something is said to be "canon" by them, it is canon.
Except when there isn't an established official thing, because little to nothing has been said on it. Than I guess we just run around like chicken's with our heads cut off instead of coming to our own general conclusion. That's apparently what you think makes the most sense.
And no canon is the acknowledged set of something, usually in art or some field. It does not have to be official.
Do you think when someone says "the canon of great Rolling Stones albums" they're talking about anything official lolll.
You have a misguided Tv Tropes style understanding of thisThe term canon originated as official word on what is and what isn't when it came to the Bible. It's an official word, basically.
The Dragonball "canon" as is, is just fan-canon. We don't know who considers what canon. Not even Toriyama himself.
It's a well reasoned concept.
The manga as it's own line of story. And as dominant primary canon due to being, I dunno, do I really have to explain that one?When I'm shooting down that pissant Yugi's Black Magician, I'm shooting him down from his retarded anarchic "let's just believe whatever we want about canon, my trunks x bee fanfic for instance is as much canon as chapter 1 :)!" standard.
Which do you choose. Utter nothingness. Or a good basic idea based around avoiding plotholes, separating adaptation from basis, and going off what little Toriyama has said.
What you're thinking of is "continuity." Every story has it's own "continuity" in some form or another, shared or not. Including Dragonball, the movies,
They overlap in this instance. The issue of canon comes up in regards to which should be referenced for the final word on something.
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The problem is, Dragon Ball's franchise doesn't attempt to stick strictly to a set rule of continuity. Dragon Ball GT is 'canon'…to itself. The films are canon to themselves. To ask if a spin-off applies to an original and long-completed work (Toriyama's comic) is pointless. Episode of Bardock clearly breaks the established 'canon' of the Bardock TV special in the first chapter. We can assume the Bardock TV special is somehow 'canon' to the comic, but it's not shown as a part of the story. References are made to Freeza having killed Bardock. That's the comic's complete word on the subject. By Toriyama's own admission, if he had written the death of the Saiyans it would have been far more light-hearted than Toei's special. Does that somehow lessen either piece, simply because they're not 'canon' to one another? No, the pieces stand on their own. There's no concrete 'canon', there's the comic and the franchise based on it. Unless something is specifically written into the comic (which Episode of Bardock or the full story of the Bardock TV special were not)…then it's not 'canon' to the comic, not that it matters. If I staked my enjoyment of the G8 arc of One Piece on whether or not it was somehow 'canon' (which is now a common misinterpretation of 'important' or having ever 'existed') then I wouldn't be very happy. Hell, I enjoy the Garlic Junior arc and that isn't 'canon' to the comic.
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Guys, we all know Goku and Piccolo learning how to drive is just as canon as Goku vs Freeza.
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Fuck make more things like the Bardock special.
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@Yuugi's:
The problem is, Dragon Ball's franchise doesn't attempt to stick strictly to a set rule of continuity. Dragon Ball GT is 'canon'…to itself. The films are canon to themselves. To ask if a spin-off applies to an original and long-completed work (Toriyama's comic) is pointless. Episode of Bardock clearly breaks the established 'canon' of the Bardock TV special in the first chapter. We can assume the Bardock TV special is somehow 'canon' to the comic, but it's not shown as a part of the story. References are made to Freeza having killed Bardock. That's the comic's complete word on the subject. By Toriyama's own admission, if he had written the death of the Saiyans it would have been far more light-hearted than Toei's special. Does that somehow lessen either piece, simply because they're not 'canon' to one another? No, the pieces stand on their own. There's no concrete 'canon', there's the comic and the franchise based on it. Unless something is specifically written into the comic (which Episode of Bardock or the full story of the Bardock TV special were not)…then it's not 'canon' to the comic, not that it matters. If I staked my enjoyment of the G8 arc of One Piece on whether or not it was somehow 'canon' (which is now a common misinterpretation of 'important' or having ever 'existed') then I wouldn't be very happy. Hell, I enjoy the Garlic Junior arc and that isn't 'canon' to the comic.
Ugh….no.
Dragonball manga is the definitive canon for the franchise, since all related characters, concepts that appear in other media such as anime, movies, and games derive purely from that. This isn't DC comics in which you have 30 different continuities, or multiple writers. Just because something isn't canon doesn't mean something is automatically inferior(which you seem to think that's people problem) non-canon is that a piece of media that takes the same concepts, and characters from its source, and directs those concepts, or characters independent from the original creators vison. Also take into the fact the entire animated Dragonball run strongly takes source from the vision of Toriyama's original manga, and anything that deviates from that is independent from his vision of his story(since its his vision that the animators are following) thus is 'non-canon' at least to the manga(which is the original canon of the series and the movies are just essentially stand-alone things that takes characters, and mythology established from the manga and use them for separate story independent from the original vision presented in the manga, that is very loosely set in different timelines in the manga. But that doesn't mean the non-canonical material is totally immune to the original creators input for example, Toriyama helped with a few fillers and movies by either crafting a few designs of characters, or even suggesting a few ideas for the others to use, but that doesn't mean they are canon to his vison though, since he was just assisting folks for their own original material that they would either add to their adaption of his own, or use them to create an original story independent from his(movies and fillers come to mind) so they usually have very little impact on his vison(with Bardock being an exception)
But just because its not canon should not dwindle a person's enjoyment of them.
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You know what the SD comics remind me of at this point? Kids books where they reinterpret a mature story for kids to read, severely condensing things and making it more "kid-friendly" with a lack of death and such. It doesn't improve the chapter here but at least it explains stuff like why 17 was spit up…and why Goku or 16 didn't die...
And the Bardock special...I like the concept of him going SSJ, but somehow it just feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy that he's the "legendary Super Saiyan" Goku eventually becomes. This legend he heard of is ultimately him and only him and his son (and later the "royal line" via Vegeta) would be able to access it sort of tears at me: it does at least allow to limit who can become SSJ (and thus keep it a legendary form instead of just making every Saiyan under the sun do it), but at the same time cheapens it because...you know, they're the last two regular Saiyans in existence and their kids suddenly can do it like nothing.
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I find it amusing that even in this crappy SD version Yamcha is that useless/unimportant that he is just in the background :D
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@Monkey:
Except when there isn't an established official thing, because little to nothing has been said on it. Than I guess we just run around like chicken's with our heads cut off instead of coming to our own general conclusion. That's apparently what you think makes the most sense.
And no canon is the acknowledged set of something, usually in art or some field. It does not have to be official.
Do you think when someone says "the canon of great Rolling Stones albums" they're talking about anything official lolll.
You have a misguided Tv Tropes style understanding of thisNo I believe it is you who is misguided.
Yes people use canon in that context. That's why there are "canon" books of the Bible, but the term "canon" there has nothing to do with continuity. There are also canon Mario and Zelda games accepted officially by Nintendo. There is also canon Buffy comics, which is established officially also. Dragonball has nothing like that.
Of course canon is and should absolutely be used as a way to say what is in continuity or not, but it isn't continuity in of itself, which is what you're misunderstanding.
Canon has everything to do with being official, while whatever you decide is "canon" is just in reality pure "fanon" at best, even if saying the manga is the true canon makes sense to you.
@Monkey:
It's a well reasoned concept.
The manga as it's own line of story. And as dominant primary canon due to being, I dunno, do I really have to explain that one?When I'm shooting down that pissant Yugi's Black Magician, I'm shooting him down from his retarded anarchic "let's just believe whatever we want about canon, my trunks x bee fanfic for instance is as much canon as chapter 1 :)!" standard.
Which do you choose. Utter nothingness. Or a good basic idea based around avoiding plotholes, separating adaptation from basis, and going off what little Toriyama has said.
Well if we go by what Toriyama says, Dragonball GT is a side-story, not out of continuity with the series. He also says Dragonball Online is a sequel to his series. This means that both Dragonball GT and Dragonball Online, in all of their blantant contractions that say they can't co-exist, are both canon to his series.
But even surmising that, no matter how logical it is, has nothing to do with official establishments of any sort whatsoever. Until Toriyama or TOEI sits down and deconstructs what is and what isn't, there is no canon, just a firmly established fanon called "canon"
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Zoro cutting steel on Warship Island is just as canon as Zoro cutting steel in Alabasta. After all, Oda never defined canon.
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Guys, we all know Goku and Piccolo learning how to drive is just as canon as Goku vs Freeza.
As one of the best fillers in the entirety of the shows run… yes. Yes it was.