The War With Whitebeard

[brennen.exe]

[hide]@brennen.exe:

The New World is where the Four Emperor's rule. Even Coby, a Marine, admits that it is where people who will start the next generation gather. As far as I know, it is certainly not a place where the Marines have power. At all. That said, the World Government isn't "THE big bad", they are just A big bad, else they wouldn't have so much trouble with not just one, but FOUR pirate crews ruling portions of the New World. Not to mention there is a portion of the New World that is, for the most part, "unexplored".

[/hide]@Ares:

Why do you think that the marines have no(or little) influence in the new world? Im mean, in which place is that stated. Garp explains the Yonkou are the 4 most powerful pirates that rule in that sea like emperors, as we saw with Withebeard and his allied crews. But does that really mean the marines have no influence here? I dont think so personally.

I'm going to assume this is for me, since it is referring to something I said. We are all allowed to disagree, and I know I tried to make it clear it was just my own thoughts on the matter, but I think there is more than enough evidence to safely conclude that they have little to no influence in the New World. Aside from the hidden quote I left at the top of the page, here are some of the exact quotes and my thoughts on the matter. Keep in mind I am not saying the Marines don't have any stations or power at all, but that there is no real power in the New World, but the closest thing to it is the Four Emperors. Just what I think though, not necessarily what is true.

[hide][[B]Chapter 432]
Garp: "Among the countless masses of pirates in the world, he is one of the four greatest, along with the infamous Whitebeard, that dwell in the latter half of the Grand Line. These pirates, who rule above all others almost as an emperor does, are called the Four Emperors!!! It is only Marine Headquarters and the Seven Armed Seas that can withstand their might!!" If only the Marine HQ and Warlords combined can withstand one Emperor, what makes you think they have any "additional" power worth noting in the New World? Not to mention Garp's statement about the Four Emperors implies that, like Emperors, they each rule large sections of the New World

[[B]Chapter 433]
Coby: "The New World! The sea where those who will begin the new era gather!! Whosoever conquers THIS sea, is in fact the PIRATE KING!!!" Clearly the New World isn't under anyone's control, and is a gathering place for pirates wanting power, otherwise Coby, a Marine, wouldn't be babbling about whoever conquers it is Pirate King! This also coincides with pirates ruling like Emperors there.
[…]
Marine: "In the New World… The fleet we sent to keep two of the Four Emperors, "Red-hair Shanks" and "Whitebeard" Edward Newgate apart, has been destroyed!! They have finally made direct contact!!!" An entire Marine fleet destroyed just trying to keep two powers apart.

[[B]Chapter 498]
Drake: "If you want to go crazy, take it to the New World!!!"
[…]
Shackey: "Either way, even the New World will not go unfazed by so many big rookies coming in at once." Both quotes, to me, imply the New World is more like a lawless zone.

[[B]Chapter 523]
Marine: "It seems like there were suspicious signals from other pirate crews in the New World, too. And now we're completely in the dark as to the scale of whatever they might attempt! We have no input! We've lost all trace of them!!" Again, Marines lack the capability of even monitoring sections of the New World[/hide]

[Johnny B. Decent]

And remember that the Revolutionaries also have the HQ there, further pulling the rug for power out of the WG's feet in the New World. I do think they have a handful of bases there, but it seems that the Shichubukai act as a sort-of a representatives for them there, though.

[El Chupa Negro]

I believe that the Shichubukai are just liaison to the New World. Think about them as a private military company they can go into enemy territory ( New World ) at will to either shake things up or just check out whats going on with the Yonkou or the smaller crews .Since all of the Shichubukai have ties to the new world they have enough power and respect to not worry about getting into an altercation with other pirates because they are still some of the strongest in the world.

Now let the Shichubukai go crazy or do something on their own accord that threatens the governments strength like Hancock , Crocodile, Blackbeard, and Jimbei have done and they risk losing their status ( goverment contract) or actual expulsion and receive there bounty again ( dissassociation/ going off the grid.

[Vanessa]

@onemoment:

No one seriously thinks Ace will die.

[Ares]

@brennen.exe:

I'm going to assume this is for me, since it is referring to something I said. We are all allowed to disagree, and I know I tried to make it clear it was just my own thoughts on the matter, but I think there is more than enough evidence to safely conclude that they have little to no influence in the New World. Aside from the hidden quote I left at the top of the page, here are some of the exact quotes and my thoughts on the matter. Keep in mind I am not saying the Marines don't have any stations or power at all, but that there is no real power in the New World, but the closest thing to it is the Four Emperors. Just what I think though, not necessarily what is true.

[hide][[B]Chapter 432]
Garp: "Among the countless masses of pirates in the world, he is one of the four greatest, along with the infamous Whitebeard, that dwell in the latter half of the Grand Line. These pirates, who rule above all others almost as an emperor does, are called the Four Emperors!!! It is only Marine Headquarters and the Seven Armed Seas that can withstand their might!!" If only the Marine HQ and Warlords combined can withstand one Emperor, what makes you think they have any "additional" power worth noting in the New World? Not to mention Garp's statement about the Four Emperors implies that, like Emperors, they each rule large sections of the New World

[[B]Chapter 433]
Coby: "The New World! The sea where those who will begin the new era gather!! Whosoever conquers THIS sea, is in fact the PIRATE KING!!!" Clearly the New World isn't under anyone's control, and is a gathering place for pirates wanting power, otherwise Coby, a Marine, wouldn't be babbling about whoever conquers it is Pirate King! This also coincides with pirates ruling like Emperors there.
[…]
Marine: "In the New World… The fleet we sent to keep two of the Four Emperors, "Red-hair Shanks" and "Whitebeard" Edward Newgate apart, has been destroyed!! They have finally made direct contact!!!" An entire Marine fleet destroyed just trying to keep two powers apart.

[[B]Chapter 498]
Drake: "If you want to go crazy, take it to the New World!!!"
[…]
Shackey: "Either way, even the New World will not go unfazed by so many big rookies coming in at once." Both quotes, to me, imply the New World is more like a lawless zone.

[[B]Chapter 523]
Marine: "It seems like there were suspicious signals from other pirate crews in the New World, too. And now we're completely in the dark as to the scale of whatever they might attempt! We have no input! We've lost all trace of them!!" Again, Marines lack the capability of even monitoring sections of the New World[/hide]

Well, like you said its a matter of opinions. I think that we are indeed going to see islands under Yonkous protection or places hidden to the marines and WG people (Like Revolutionary base) but I think they have influence, the sufficient influence to keep the balance and avoid a total pirate area in the world (Even though they are unable to catchor even defeat the yonkous).
I think they have this kind of influence because of diferent things, such as the marines and the gorousei knowing Shanks and Withebeard reunion was going to take place, them controling (Until they failed xD) Whitebeard moves before the war, sending Sengoku to deal with the Roger and Shiki incident, or the Admirals generally hunting big shots in this sea. I agree that they have less influence than in the first half, because of the yonkou and the revolutionarys acting mainly there, but near to none? I think you should give them some credit xD
PS. Sorry for my bad english…xD

[Darkstorm]

@brennen.exe:

I'm going to assume this is for me, since it is referring to something I said. We are all allowed to disagree, and I know I tried to make it clear it was just my own thoughts on the matter, but I think there is more than enough evidence to safely conclude that they have little to no influence in the New World. Aside from the hidden quote I left at the top of the page, here are some of the exact quotes and my thoughts on the matter. Keep in mind I am not saying the Marines don't have any stations or power at all, but that there is no real power in the New World, but the closest thing to it is the Four Emperors. Just what I think though, not necessarily what is true.

I've always believed much the same, whatever forces they have in the New World are dwarfed by the emperors.

I think this is probably going to be part of the reason behind the war, the WG has deliberately drawn out Newgate in order to weaken the hold pirates have in the New World by wiping out one of the emperors, and thus increase their own influence in the new world.

[Vanessa]

@Darkstorm:

I think this is probably going to be part of the reason behind the war, the WG has deliberately drawn out Newgate in order to weaken the hold pirates have in the New World by wiping out one of the emperors, and thus increase their own influence in the new world.

I think this is pretty much a given. Especially since Roger having started this Golden Age of Piracy, the Navy's forces had been stretched out far more than they're capable of handling due to the influx of pirate crews that were a result of it. I'm just hoping that once this whole war with the Whitebeard Pirates ends up with them attempting to establish a good foothold into the New World like you stated.

In addition to a perfect "opportunity" for an Armed Sea like Doflamingo do what even more of what they want since the World Government likely would be focused mainly on finally making an influence on the second half to really keep tabs on whatever he's up to. Plus it might open up scenarios for characters like Smoker and Coby in order to build up their status(and rank) within the Navy itself. Since they would be ones who would benefit the most from this major change along with maybe getting rid of guys like Sakazuki.

[Pothead_Jesus]

ok now like some of you I was originally dissapointed in the strength WBs shown as the worlds "strongest man" but then i decided take a step back and look at this

WB - Quake power - tidelwaves on command

now this in itself is a far more imba df then we've seen in this series because as far as ive seen all DF powers are useless against water (akoji excluded) i mean in open sea like the New World i cant see anyone getting close to WB cuz he can just send massive walls of water at you from all directions. you'd have to somehow get him surrounded and freeze the first rounds of titalwaves he sends to make a wall to block from future waves…. (sound like something?)

I think before he went to MHQ he WAS the worlds strongest man but going into the cove like that lowerd the massive overpowerdness his DF had in the advantage of water placement.

ITS NOT OVER YET! i think dispite the current situation WB hasnt gone all out because his crews still there personally i believe this arc will end with WB crew wiped out and the death of maybe one admiral or sengoku or garp (im hoping for both those old kooks) and whitebeard opening a fissure or something taking down the MHQ with him.

now of course these are just little things ive been thinking about as we await the new chapter and id like to hear some other theorys on WB the admirals and other stuff from you guys! i only have one request.... plz dont fill this page with "here let me quote 8 differnt posts you made here and discuss how i feel about each one

your wrong when u said this

this

this

and of course this

.............yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa lets not see any of that lol

[SeriusReader]

One Pieces first "puplic" war even with all mighty Whitebeard is quite dissapoinment. But, its not over yet. It can still turn good-enough tier doing only one thing… but I doub, it wont happen.

[Roronoa Zacho]

@Eustlass:

lol first of all crocodile is a woman thats his big secret like he new freking ivan lol and maybe after this arc Ace may join luffy

It's a little offtopic, but I think the same way. Maybe this is Croc's secret/weakness.
In chapter 0, we only see him from behind at the execution of Roger. And from behind he could have been a girl at that time. We see the faces of all other shichis at Roger's execution.
Croc was a girl, definetely!
Back2Ttopic: WB will die!

[igloo15]

WB will definitely die but in the process will save all his crew including ace. They will probably escape to Fishman island and rest there.

There are still many wildcards left to be played in this war though. All the new rookies are up to something and there is still Blackbeard who is definitely up to something beyond just getting a new crew member. Magallen is still in the mix wasn't he going to get on a boat and go after Luffy.

So its possible that all these wildcards might come together at MHQ for some sort of craziness that we cannot imagine.

[xAcEx]

Hey guys, I don't normally post here but I had a quick question. Is there any way that other rookies like Law and Kid could show up at MHQ? I know MHQ is surrounded by the clam belt and I thought I read that only Marine ships could pass through, but didn't WB make it trough without Marine ships? Or am I missing something here?

[Darkstorm]

Yes, they should be able to get there. Of the three points of the Tarai current, only Impel Down is in the Calm Belt.

And Saobondy is very close to MHQ.

[xAcEx]

@Darkstorm:

Yes, they should be able to get there. Of the three points of the Tarai current, only Impel Down is in the Calm Belt.

And Saobondy is very close to MHQ.

ohhhhhh ok I gotcha thanks :)

[brennen.exe]

Yeah, and Marineford isn't inside of the Tarai current, it just has access to it. The same as Impel Down and Enies Lobby do. Take a look at this map, and note the location of Marineford and the Saboady Archipelago. Also, Ace isn't going to die, Blackbeard won't need his Warlord title after this arc, the Marines don't have power in the New World, Luffy is strong and will save Ace, <other comments="" that="" will="" start="" an="" argument="">, and Darkstorm likes boys. The end.</other>

[Darkstorm]

@brennen.exe:

Also, Ace isn't going to die, Blackbeard won't need his Warlord title after this arc, the Marines don't have power in the New World, Luffy is strong and will save Ace, <other comments="" that="" will="" start="" an="" argument="">, and Darkstorm likes boys. The end.</other>

Oh Brenda. I never knew you cared.

[MagneticMonkey]

I'm not sure about BB not needing his warlord title after the war. I mean how did the title helped him since he joined? What did he gain? What has he done with it that would have been impossible without the title? It might very well be revealed soon but as long as we don't know, I'm not willing to speculate and will stick with him having some use for it in the future :)

[People call me E]

maybe to check a specific document in Mariejoa? like a document about impel down? a special access? In any case i also think that the title means anything for him now. By all logic, i see him having the emperor title some times after the war, and he could expand its territory to find the last island.

[brennen.exe]

@MagneticMonkey:

I'm not sure about BB not needing his warlord title after the war. I mean how did the title helped him since he joined? What did he gain? What has he done with it that would have been impossible without the title? It might very well be revealed soon but as long as we don't know, I'm not willing to speculate and will stick with him having some use for it in the future :)

Fufufufufu~~ Well, you see, it's simple! No, well, really, it's just what I thought of back when the war was announced, and I still see nothing to the contrary, so I have stuck with it. Of course, I could be wrong, but… Whatever, Zephos seemed to have a lot of trouble understanding it, for some reason, so I will try to make it easier to follow. Hopefully it isn't too TL;DR. If it is though, well, that's a shame…

[hide]First, I think I should establish what we know about Blackbeard: he wants to be the Pirate King, he has a plan for how he will attain that title, he is willing to wait long periods of time to attain something, and that he firmly believes in fate. It is easy to conclude that, while seemingly simple minded at times, he is a planner, but is willing to change plans on a dime or adjust plans accordingly because of "fate". That is to say, he might have some huge plan for accomplishing a goal, but should an opportunity come up or should something crazy happen that gets in the way of his plan he can adapt or let it go because fate willed it. We've seen examples of this with his acquiring the Yami Yami Fruit, Luffy escaping him at Jaya, Luffy showing back up when they were near a sea train, Ace showing up at Banaro Island, Blackbeard commenting that Lafitte will find them wherever they go, and Shiryuu saving them in Impel Down. Other potential examples would be Crocodile losing his position, and Ace specifically being his ticket into the Warlords. <– I will explain those later. So, to my little theory...

Overly Simplified Version: Blackbeard wanted to be the Pirate King, so he began building a crew and establishing power. One thing that stands in Blackbeard's way, and everyone's way, is Whitebeard and the Marines. So, Crocodile gets defeated. Fate. Fate allowed Blackbeard an opportunity to join the Warlords and ally himself with Whitebeard's biggest and primary enemy, the Marines. Blackbeard, knowing how much the Marines would want to take Whitebeard (and any pirate) down, decides to join up with them so he can somehow instigate or allow a war to take place between Whitebeard and the Marines. The great thing here is that he can still build his crew, establish power, and otherwise pursue any other plan he might have had while still being a Warlord. Much like Dofla, Hancock, Moria, etc. [[I]Note: I think the Marines would take any bait offered to them on this front, seeing as how they really want to take Whitebeard down and more than likely want to establish more power throughout the world]. So he begins to search for someone with a large bounty so that he can curry favor with the Marines. Luffy comes and goes. He continues searching for someone, and Ace shows up to do business. FATE! Fate brings Ace to Blackbeard, killing two birds with one stone by allowing him to join up with the Marines (Warlord title) at the same time as instigating a war with Whitebeard. [[I]Now, here is where I have discussed with Urouge that it might be possible Impel Down was another (fated) goal of Blackbeards, or it might just be an added bonus to the current state of affairs. Either way, this is another argument entirely]. He then bones out when the war starts, allowing them to basically take each other out, and more than likely will show up when both are at a much weaker state so that he can perform some finishing blows.

Now, a few things I think are worth noting. One, Blackbeard should know, having been a crew member of the Whitebeard Pirates, that challenging Whitebeard means going up against dozens of allied crews, the sixteen Whitebeard divisions, their commanders, and finally Whitebeard himself. No easy money, so unless he builds an armada like an Emperor himself, the Marines are one of the primary options he would have had available. Now, he might have had other (more laborious) plans prior to that, but this would surely be one of his "fate" scenarios, should I be right. Two, Impel Down doesn't allow pirates in (even Warlords), is arguably just as easy to reach with an eternal pose as it is by stealing a Marine ship and then using the Tarai Current, and would have been a near impossible task to accomplish had the place not already been in chaos and had the Marines not already been distracted. Therefore, I don't really think Impel Down was his only (read: main) goal for the title. Given that, he could be there for insurance by releasing prisoners and destroying a stronghold of the Marines, he could be there to recruit, he could be there for some secret they hold, or he could be there for some other reason we still do not know. Either way, we know he encouraged Luffy to create more chaos for him on his way up, and we know he didn't bother making any moves on Impel Down until there were riots going on and the Marines were starting their plans against Whitebeard. Three, Blackbeard said himself that he had a plan for dethroning Whitebeard and becoming the Pirate King, and then said in Impel Down that he had a show that would shock the whole world, which I want to believe are one and the same. Or at least coincide with each other. Four, I am not saying that he will definitely not want to keep his title, just that I see no reason for him to keep it, and at this point I see no reason for the Marines to keep him on board. Basically, I think his main goal for the title was to use the Marines to take down Whitebeard, and having fulfilled that goal, he can move on to bigger and better things (aka: Pirate King). Five, ummm, I walked away from my chair too much, and I forget…...

Anyway, I am sure people will argue with me on a good portion of this, so I should probably have made it much shorter, to avoid confusingly long discussion, but too bad, so sad.[/hide]

[igloo15]

Nice Theory except Blackbeard did not intend to capture Ace or start a war between Whitebeard and Marines. Originally Blackbeard wanted to join up with the marines for some unknown reason and In order to do so he wanted to become famous by taking down a 100 million+ guy like luffy.

Ace tracked him down and blackbeard originally did not want to fight him. Then as the battle continued I assumed he decided Ace would be a good thing to get him in with the marines. Later on Blackbeard comes out and says that he did not intend for this war with Whitebeard to happen when he meets Luffy and Jimbei in Impel Down. I don't believe Blackbeard is the liar type so he must be telling the truth.

This means the Whitebeard war has nothing to do with Blackbeard joining up with the Marines.

[brennen.exe]

@igloo15:

Nice Theory except Blackbeard did not intend to capture Ace or start a war between Whitebeard and Marines. Originally Blackbeard wanted to join up with the marines for some unknown reason and In order to do so he wanted to become famous by taking down a 100 million+ guy like Luffy.

I hate you. No, seriously.

[Zik]

@igloo15:

Nice Theory except Blackbeard did not intend to capture Ace or start a war between Whitebeard and Marines. Originally Blackbeard wanted to join up with the marines for some unknown reason and In order to do so he wanted to become famous by taking down a 100 million+ guy like luffy.

Ace tracked him down and blackbeard originally did not want to fight him. Then as the battle continued I assumed he decided Ace would be a good thing to get him in with the marines. Later on Blackbeard comes out and says that he did not intend for this war with Whitebeard to happen when he meets Luffy and Jimbei in Impel Down. I don't believe Blackbeard is the liar type so he must be telling the truth.

This means the Whitebeard war has nothing to do with Blackbeard joining up with the Marines.

Yeah he's obviously adapted his plan according to the will of fate. I'm pretty sure w/e this big show he's about to put on was only decided on after he defeated Ace and brought him in to become a shichibukai.

If he had succeeded in beating Luffy and becoming a shichi who knows what would've happened? War with Dragon? Inevitable war with WB anyway since Ace would've probably went to save him? Despite that BB still has something to get in ID. There's nothing pointing to him giving up his newly gain position especially after what he said to Croc in ID and nothing pointing to him being stripped of his title if he still shows up in the war.

[Strategos]

If I'm not mistaking, BB was surprise when Ace said Luffy is his brother. Because BB said, "Ace, let's hunt Luffy"(or something along the lines. I also believe BB is moving around the lines of fate.

[wintergt]

@igloo15:

Nice Theory except Blackbeard did not intend to capture Ace or start a war between Whitebeard and Marines. Originally Blackbeard wanted to join up with the marines for some unknown reason and In order to do so he wanted to become famous by taking down a 100 million+ guy like luffy. […]

You didn't even read it.
@brennen.exe:

[hide]First, I think I should establish what we know about Blackbeard: he wants to be the Pirate King, he has a plan for how he will attain that title, he is willing to wait long periods of time to attain something, and that he firmly believes in fate. It is easy to conclude that, while seemingly simple minded at times, he is a planner, but is willing to change plans on a dime or adjust plans accordingly because of "fate". That is to say, he might have some huge plan for accomplishing a goal, but should an opportunity come up or should something crazy happen that gets in the way of his plan he can adapt or let it go because fate willed it. We've seen examples of this with his acquiring the Yami Yami Fruit, Luffy escaping him at Jaya, Luffy showing back up when they were near a sea train, Ace showing up at Banaro Island, Blackbeard commenting that Lafitte will find them wherever they go, and Shiryuu saving them in Impel Down. Other potential examples would be Crocodile losing his position, and Ace specifically being his ticket into the Warlords. <– I will explain those later. So, to my little theory...

Overly Simplified Version: Blackbeard wanted to be the Pirate King, so he began building a crew and establishing power. One thing that stands in Blackbeard's way, and everyone's way, is Whitebeard and the Marines. So, Crocodile gets defeated. Fate. Fate allowed Blackbeard an opportunity to join the Warlords and ally himself with Whitebeard's biggest and primary enemy, the Marines. Blackbeard, knowing how much the Marines would want to take Whitebeard (and any pirate) down, decides to join up with them so he can somehow instigate or allow a war to take place between Whitebeard and the Marines. The great thing here is that he can still build his crew, establish power, and otherwise pursue any other plan he might have had while still being a Warlord. Much like Dofla, Hancock, Moria, etc. [[I]Note: I think the Marines would take any bait offered to them on this front, seeing as how they really want to take Whitebeard down and more than likely want to establish more power throughout the world]. So he begins to search for someone with a large bounty so that he can curry favor with the Marines. Luffy comes and goes. He continues searching for someone, and Ace shows up to do business. FATE! Fate brings Ace to Blackbeard, killing two birds with one stone by allowing him to join up with the Marines (Warlord title) at the same time as instigating a war with Whitebeard. [[I]Now, here is where I have discussed with Urouge that it might be possible Impel Down was another (fated) goal of Blackbeards, or it might just be an added bonus to the current state of affairs. Either way, this is another argument entirely]. He then bones out when the war starts, allowing them to basically take each other out, and more than likely will show up when both are at a much weaker state so that he can perform some finishing blows.

Now, a few things I think are worth noting. One, Blackbeard should know, having been a crew member of the Whitebeard Pirates, that challenging Whitebeard means going up against dozens of allied crews, the sixteen Whitebeard divisions, their commanders, and finally Whitebeard himself. No easy money, so unless he builds an armada like an Emperor himself, the Marines are one of the primary options he would have had available. Now, he might have had other (more laborious) plans prior to that, but this would surely be one of his "fate" scenarios, should I be right. Two, Impel Down doesn't allow pirates in (even Warlords), is arguably just as easy to reach with an eternal pose as it is by stealing a Marine ship and then using the Tarai Current, and would have been a near impossible task to accomplish had the place not already been in chaos and had the Marines not already been distracted. Therefore, I don't really think Impel Down was his only (read: main) goal for the title. Given that, he could be there for insurance by releasing prisoners and destroying a stronghold of the Marines, he could be there to recruit, he could be there for some secret they hold, or he could be there for some other reason we still do not know. Either way, we know he encouraged Luffy to create more chaos for him on his way up, and we know he didn't bother making any moves on Impel Down until there were riots going on and the Marines were starting their plans against Whitebeard. Three, Blackbeard said himself that he had a plan for dethroning Whitebeard and becoming the Pirate King, and then said in Impel Down that he had a show that would shock the whole world, which I want to believe are one and the same. Or at least coincide with each other. Four, I am not saying that he will definitely not want to keep his title, just that I see no reason for him to keep it, and at this point I see no reason for the Marines to keep him on board. Basically, I think his main goal for the title was to use the Marines to take down Whitebeard, and having fulfilled that goal, he can move on to bigger and better things (aka: Pirate King). Five, ummm, I walked away from my chair too much, and I forget…...

Anyway, I am sure people will argue with me on a good portion of this, so I should probably have made it much shorter, to avoid confusingly long discussion, but too bad, so sad.[/hide]

This is also what I think in general lines. But I have two remarks. First, did BB actually say somewhere that he wanted to take out WB? (I always thought this was only assumed)

And the second thing, there is one thing that throws me off. In ID blackbeard says that "not everything has gone smoothly", while it would seem that if his plan was to topple WB (and replace him as yonkou?) then things have gone even better than planned; Yet he implies he has had setbacks. So maybe his real plan was something different altogether.

[igloo15]

Oh I read part of it but I skimmed near the end maybe I missed something but I thought at least at the start that he was trying to make is seem like Blackbeard was trying to start the Whitebeard war inorder to get rid of Whitebeard as opposition for the Pirate King title. Then again maybe I am totally off base I will try to wade through the wall of text again.

[brennen.exe]

@wintergt:

First, did BB actually say somewhere that he wanted to take out WB?

Indirectly, yes. "I've got it all planned out!! I know exactly how it'll happen!! Whitebeard's era is over!!! I'M gonna be Pirate King!!!"

@wintergt:

And the second thing, there is one thing that throws me off. In ID Blackbeard says that "not everything has gone smoothly", while it would seem that if his plan was to topple WB then things have gone even better than planned; Yet he implies he has had setbacks. So maybe his real plan was something different altogether.

I don't doubt that his plans have changed here and there, or that he has hit some bumps on the road, but he clearly says that everything is going according to plan, even if it hasn't gone perfectly smooth. This after Crocodile questioning his title, too, so who knows what he means. Stephen's translation lists it as "minor complications"; we won't know until later what exactly he is referring to.

[Johnny B. Decent]

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

Yeah he's obviously adapted his plan according to the will of fate. I'm pretty sure w/e this big show he's about to put on was only decided on after he defeated Ace and brought him in to become a shichibukai.

If he had succeeded in beating Luffy and becoming a shichi who knows what would've happened? War with Dragon? Inevitable war with WB anyway since Ace would've probably went to save him? Despite that BB still has something to get in ID. There's nothing pointing to him giving up his newly gain position especially after what he said to Croc in ID and nothing pointing to him being stripped of his title if he still shows up in the war.

It was said he didn't know Luffy and Ace were related. That said, I do think he was eventually going to get Ace, but Luffy was what he thought was his ticket to being a Shichibukai, although Ace seems to be the better catch, in that regard.

Also, has it ever been said that, for example, he cut Thatch's head off, and cashed in on him, too? I imagine his death would help seal the deal further.

[Warfare]

But…But he wanted Ace to join him at first.

[Johnny B. Decent]

Could be him lying to get him in the crew, and then sell him out once he's in.

[Zik]

@S.C.:

Could be him lying to get him in the crew, and then sell him out once he's in.

Nah BB was dead serious. He's that twisted to think Ace might have said yes.

He was never going to get Ace btw. Nothing in the story indicates that especially since he asked him to join him instead of fight him. Like I said if BB got Luffy and gained a shichi status that way he'd leave Ace alone until w/e plan he had to end WB's era was ready to go.

However, BB basically lets fate lead his life. When you think about it what could his plan be before Luffy defeated Croc? Kill a shichibukai himself and take their spot? Dude was just aimlessly traveling through the GL since he killed Thatch, fucking with Wapol and then chilling in Jaya possibly waiting for Luffy or any other big name pirate to come through.

[El Chupa Negro]

Blackbeard's plan to get his goal is basically jump off of every opportunity he gets . He apparently has no clue at the scope of his actions will cause. Cuz if he killed Luffy Ace and a shitload of people would kill him in seconds. Blackbeard is just the wrong man in the right place at the wrong time . He went to impel down and almost got killed. Fought a close fight to the Death with Ace and almost lost. He just is extremely lucky he goes off of rumor's and myths to succeed. If he brought luffy's body to the Marine Hq Garp or Kuzan would fight him or Shanks would . Blackbeard is lucky to be alive right now.

[Johnny B. Decent]

@El:

Blackbeard's plan to get his goal is basically jump off of every opportunity he gets . He apparently has no clue at the scope of his actions will cause. Cuz if he killed Luffy Ace and a shitload of people would kill him in seconds. Blackbeard is just the wrong man in the right place at the wrong time . He went to impel down and almost got killed. Fought a close fight to the Death with Ace and almost lost. He just is extremely lucky he goes off of rumor's and myths to succeed. If he brought luffy's body to the Marine Hq Garp or Kuzan would fight him or Shanks would . Blackbeard is lucky to be alive right now.

Um, OK:

First, who is this quote "shitload of people", and we know how Ace VS Blackbeard went, so yeah. Blackbeard's poisoning showed a crucial flaw of him: His lack of speed. Aokiji wouldn't give a shit if he killed Luffy, and Garp would be angry, but likely dismiss it as either "He knew what he was getting into" or "He should have been a Marine. Shanks might take action, possibly. I do think you sell Blackbeard too lightly, though.

[Zik]

@El:

or Kuzan would fight him .

Que?
@S.C.:

Um, OK:

First, who is this quote "shitload of people"

Garp, probably Dadan, Ace just might be able to convince WB to go after BB together, possibly Dragon, and not to mention his crew; namely Usopp who I see in this hypothetical scenario becoming OP's version of emo Naruto.

[madmanricky]

i see it like this luffy get up to ace grabs him and manages to get back behind WB segoku and garp go after them and are stopped by WB he holds them off till everyone can escape then with his final breath cause a earthquake that destroys marine HQ

[Green Monkey]

@S.C.:

Um, OK:

First, who is this quote "shitload of people", and we know how Ace VS Blackbeard went, so yeah. Blackbeard's poisoning showed a crucial flaw of him: His lack of speed. Aokiji wouldn't give a shit if he killed Luffy, and Garp would be angry, but likely dismiss it as either "He knew what he was getting into" or "He should have been a Marine. Shanks might take action, possibly. I do think you sell Blackbeard too lightly, though.

What do you mean shanks "Might" take action…Shanks would definitely take action. Ace would try to save Luffy whether WB liked it or not, and I'm guessing WB would go along with him due to how loyal he is to his "sons". You think Dragon is just going to let Luffy die? I highly doubt that.

If Luffy got captured i think

Shanks crew
Whitebeards Crew
Dragon and his army
Hancock (In this scenario would luffy of even met here, IDK)

would all try to save him. That qualifies as a "Shit Load" of people when you take into account all of these guys and their armies/crews. We don't know if WB would call on all his new world allies like he did with Ace either.

[Johnny B. Decent]

@Green:

What do you mean shanks "Might" take action…Shanks would definitely take action. Ace would try to save Luffy whether WB liked it or not, and I'm guessing WB would go along with him due to how loyal he is to his "sons". You think Dragon is just going to let Luffy die? I highly doubt that.

If Luffy got captured i think

Shanks crew
Whitebeards Crew
Dragon and his army
Hancock (In this scenario would luffy of even met here, IDK)

would all try to save him. That qualifies as a "Shit Load" of people when you take into account all of these guys and their armies/crews. We don't know if WB would call on all his new world allies like he did with Ace either.

I consider Dragon to be the evil one in his family, and might brush it off as "Oh well, guess he wasn't strong enough". Ace, if not defeated, might have his division, but to say any more then that is stretching. Either way, as we all know, Luffy isn't dead, so yeah.

[Geo D. Pierce]

@brennen.exe:

Fufufufufu~~ Well, you see, it's simple! No, well, really, it's just what I thought of back when the war was announced, and I still see nothing to the contrary, so I have stuck with it. Of course, I could be wrong, but… Whatever, Zephos seemed to have a lot of trouble understanding it, for some reason, so I will try to make it easier to follow. Hopefully it isn't too TL;DR. If it is though, well, that's a shame…

[hide]First, I think I should establish what we know about Blackbeard: he wants to be the Pirate King, he has a plan for how he will attain that title, he is willing to wait long periods of time to attain something, and that he firmly believes in fate. It is easy to conclude that, while seemingly simple minded at times, he is a planner, but is willing to change plans on a dime or adjust plans accordingly because of "fate". That is to say, he might have some huge plan for accomplishing a goal, but should an opportunity come up or should something crazy happen that gets in the way of his plan he can adapt or let it go because fate willed it. We've seen examples of this with his acquiring the Yami Yami Fruit, Luffy escaping him at Jaya, Luffy showing back up when they were near a sea train, Ace showing up at Banaro Island, Blackbeard commenting that Lafitte will find them wherever they go, and Shiryuu saving them in Impel Down. Other potential examples would be Crocodile losing his position, and Ace specifically being his ticket into the Warlords. <– I will explain those later. So, to my little theory...

Overly Simplified Version: Blackbeard wanted to be the Pirate King, so he began building a crew and establishing power. One thing that stands in Blackbeard's way, and everyone's way, is Whitebeard and the Marines. So, Crocodile gets defeated. Fate. Fate allowed Blackbeard an opportunity to join the Warlords and ally himself with Whitebeard's biggest and primary enemy, the Marines. Blackbeard, knowing how much the Marines would want to take Whitebeard (and any pirate) down, decides to join up with them so he can somehow instigate or allow a war to take place between Whitebeard and the Marines. The great thing here is that he can still build his crew, establish power, and otherwise pursue any other plan he might have had while still being a Warlord. Much like Dofla, Hancock, Moria, etc. [[I]Note: I think the Marines would take any bait offered to them on this front, seeing as how they really want to take Whitebeard down and more than likely want to establish more power throughout the world]. So he begins to search for someone with a large bounty so that he can curry favor with the Marines. Luffy comes and goes. He continues searching for someone, and Ace shows up to do business. FATE! Fate brings Ace to Blackbeard, killing two birds with one stone by allowing him to join up with the Marines (Warlord title) at the same time as instigating a war with Whitebeard. [[I]Now, here is where I have discussed with Urouge that it might be possible Impel Down was another (fated) goal of Blackbeards, or it might just be an added bonus to the current state of affairs. Either way, this is another argument entirely]. He then bones out when the war starts, allowing them to basically take each other out, and more than likely will show up when both are at a much weaker state so that he can perform some finishing blows.

Now, a few things I think are worth noting. One, Blackbeard should know, having been a crew member of the Whitebeard Pirates, that challenging Whitebeard means going up against dozens of allied crews, the sixteen Whitebeard divisions, their commanders, and finally Whitebeard himself. No easy money, so unless he builds an armada like an Emperor himself, the Marines are one of the primary options he would have had available. Now, he might have had other (more laborious) plans prior to that, but this would surely be one of his "fate" scenarios, should I be right. Two, Impel Down doesn't allow pirates in (even Warlords), is arguably just as easy to reach with an eternal pose as it is by stealing a Marine ship and then using the Tarai Current, and would have been a near impossible task to accomplish had the place not already been in chaos and had the Marines not already been distracted. Therefore, I don't really think Impel Down was his only (read: main) goal for the title. Given that, he could be there for insurance by releasing prisoners and destroying a stronghold of the Marines, he could be there to recruit, he could be there for some secret they hold, or he could be there for some other reason we still do not know. Either way, we know he encouraged Luffy to create more chaos for him on his way up, and we know he didn't bother making any moves on Impel Down until there were riots going on and the Marines were starting their plans against Whitebeard. Three, Blackbeard said himself that he had a plan for dethroning Whitebeard and becoming the Pirate King, and then said in Impel Down that he had a show that would shock the whole world, which I want to believe are one and the same. Or at least coincide with each other. Four, I am not saying that he will definitely not want to keep his title, just that I see no reason for him to keep it, and at this point I see no reason for the Marines to keep him on board. Basically, I think his main goal for the title was to use the Marines to take down Whitebeard, and having fulfilled that goal, he can move on to bigger and better things (aka: Pirate King). Five, ummm, I walked away from my chair too much, and I forget…...

Anyway, I am sure people will argue with me on a good portion of this, so I should probably have made it much shorter, to avoid confusingly long discussion, but too bad, so sad.[/hide]

im gonna have to agree with this theory. people underrate blackbeard so much simply because he puts on an act. BB really did plan out this Marines vs WB war so both won't be in his way later on. im guessin BB went to impel down to make everyone in level 6 and 5 part of his crew. this might be a stretch but the only person that might be aware is Dragon simply because he has been trying to take down the WG for a long time. anyone ever wondered why he didnt become pirate king? probably to stop anyone from becoming one in the first place :P

[El Chupa Negro]

I take back that Kuzan remark. Im pretty sure if word got out that he killed Luffy Dragon would definitely not let it slide it looks like he takes pride in Luffy , Ace who went after Blackbead over his crewmate he would definitely go to a greater extreme if he found out Luffy was killed by him. Shanks is seems to care about Luffy a great deal so he would probably seek action against Blackbead.

[Johnny B. Decent]

I just had a thought: What the Hell ever happened to Whitey Bay? Last I remember, she just broke up the Ice way back when, and haven't see her since.

[GaaraofTheDesert]

She was Ace"s girlfriend she will save him after Squardo"s attempt.

[Jacko]

@Geo:

im gonna have to agree with this theory. people underrate blackbeard so much simply because he puts on an act. BB really did plan out this Marines vs WB war so both won't be in his way later on. im guessin BB went to impel down to make everyone in level 6 and 5 part of his crew. this might be a stretch but the only person that might be aware is Dragon simply because he has been trying to take down the WG for a long time. anyone ever wondered why he didnt become pirate king? probably to stop anyone from becoming one in the first place :P

I agree with you on the BB thing, but i think how you see Dragon is not really correct. We know nearly nothing about this guy. Personally i think he was a pirate in the past (on Rogers ship) and fighting against the WG is his way to deal with the mystery the Roger pirates encountered on Raftel, but this is only speculation.

[pwnobi]

@ Brennen:
@brennen.exe:

Fufufufufu~~ Well, you see, it's simple! No, well, really, it's just what I thought of back when the war was announced, and I still see nothing to the contrary, so I have stuck with it. Of course, I could be wrong, but… Whatever, Zephos seemed to have a lot of trouble understanding it, for some reason, so I will try to make it easier to follow. Hopefully it isn't too TL;DR. If it is though, well, that's a shame…

[hide]First, I think I should establish what we know about Blackbeard: he wants to be the Pirate King, he has a plan for how he will attain that title, he is willing to wait long periods of time to attain something, and that he firmly believes in fate. It is easy to conclude that, while seemingly simple minded at times, he is a planner, but is willing to change plans on a dime or adjust plans accordingly because of "fate". That is to say, he might have some huge plan for accomplishing a goal, but should an opportunity come up or should something crazy happen that gets in the way of his plan he can adapt or let it go because fate willed it. We've seen examples of this with his acquiring the Yami Yami Fruit, Luffy escaping him at Jaya, Luffy showing back up when they were near a sea train, Ace showing up at Banaro Island, Blackbeard commenting that Lafitte will find them wherever they go, and Shiryuu saving them in Impel Down. Other potential examples would be Crocodile losing his position, and Ace specifically being his ticket into the Warlords. <– I will explain those later. So, to my little theory...

Overly Simplified Version: Blackbeard wanted to be the Pirate King, so he began building a crew and establishing power. One thing that stands in Blackbeard's way, and everyone's way, is Whitebeard and the Marines. So, Crocodile gets defeated. Fate. Fate allowed Blackbeard an opportunity to join the Warlords and ally himself with Whitebeard's biggest and primary enemy, the Marines. Blackbeard, knowing how much the Marines would want to take Whitebeard (and any pirate) down, decides to join up with them so he can somehow instigate or allow a war to take place between Whitebeard and the Marines. The great thing here is that he can still build his crew, establish power, and otherwise pursue any other plan he might have had while still being a Warlord. Much like Dofla, Hancock, Moria, etc. [[I]Note: I think the Marines would take any bait offered to them on this front, seeing as how they really want to take Whitebeard down and more than likely want to establish more power throughout the world]. So he begins to search for someone with a large bounty so that he can curry favor with the Marines. Luffy comes and goes. He continues searching for someone, and Ace shows up to do business. FATE! Fate brings Ace to Blackbeard, killing two birds with one stone by allowing him to join up with the Marines (Warlord title) at the same time as instigating a war with Whitebeard. [[I]Now, here is where I have discussed with Urouge that it might be possible Impel Down was another (fated) goal of Blackbeards, or it might just be an added bonus to the current state of affairs. Either way, this is another argument entirely]. He then bones out when the war starts, allowing them to basically take each other out, and more than likely will show up when both are at a much weaker state so that he can perform some finishing blows.

Now, a few things I think are worth noting. One, Blackbeard should know, having been a crew member of the Whitebeard Pirates, that challenging Whitebeard means going up against dozens of allied crews, the sixteen Whitebeard divisions, their commanders, and finally Whitebeard himself. No easy money, so unless he builds an armada like an Emperor himself, the Marines are one of the primary options he would have had available. Now, he might have had other (more laborious) plans prior to thFat, but this would surely be one of his "fate" scenarios, should I be right. Two, Impel Down doesn't allow pirates in (even Warlords), is arguably just as easy to reach with an eternal pose as it is by stealing a Marine ship and then using the Tarai Current, and would have been a near impossible task to accomplish had the place not already been in chaos and had the Marines not already been distracted. Therefore, I don't really think Impel Down was his only (read: main) goal for the title. Given that, he could be there for insurance by releasing prisoners and destroying a stronghold of the Marines, he could be there to recruit, he could be there for some secret they hold, or he could be there for some other reason we still do not know. Either way, we know he encouraged Luffy to create more chaos for him on his way up, and we know he didn't bother making any moves on Impel Down until there were riots going on and the Marines were starting their plans against Whitebeard. Three, Blackbeard said himself that he had a plan for dethroning Whitebeard and becoming the Pirate King, and then said in Impel Down that he had a show that would shock the whole world, which I want to believe are one and the same. Or at least coincide with each other. Four, I am not saying that he will definitely not want to keep his title, just that I see no reason for him to keep it, and at this point I see no reason for the Marines to keep him on board. Basically, I think his main goal for the title was to use the Marines to take down Whitebeard, and having fulfilled that goal, he can move on to bigger and better things (aka: Pirate King). Five, ummm, I walked away from my chair too much, and I forget…...

Anyway, I am sure people will argue with me on a good portion of this, so I should probably have made it much shorter, to avoid confusingly long discussion, but too bad, so sad.[/hide]

I just wanted to say a few things in regards to this:
1. [hide] This is a pretty good interpretation of events as they correspond to Blackbeard, IMO.[/hide]
2. [hide]I know this doesn't have to do with your theory, but just to clarify. You say Blackbeard was looking for anybody and then Ace shows up.

He continues searching for someone

I do realize anyone with a 100m bounty would fit the criteria of this step in his plan, I just wanted to point out at that time he was still specifically looking for Luffy, not just someone.
Page, for reference. [/hide]
3. [hide]It's apart of your theory that Blackbeard was planning to use the Marines specifically to take down Whitebeard.

I think his main goal for the title was to use the Marines to take down Whitebeard

This does make perfect sense, however it seems to me that the War was as you said more of a "two birds with one stone" kind of deal. Both proving himself capable of the title of Warlord and getting rid of Whitebeard. I wonder however if his intention was to specifically use the Marine's for this purpose. I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing. If that was his original intention, I'm wondering what his plan would have been had he captured Luffy instead of Ace.[/hide]
4.[hide]

Blackbeard said himself that he had a plan for dethroning Whitebeard and becoming the Pirate King

I know where you're pulling this from, when Blackbeard said Whitebeard's Era was over. I agree with the conclusion you make from this, but what would you think if what he actually meant was Whitebeard's Era in general, and not him specifically? Do you think maybe he has a plan for Sengoku, or maybe even the 5 elder stars? This could be the "show" he was talking about that would rock the world to it's core, or something to that effect.[/hide]

[brennen.exe]

@pwnobi:

I just wanted to point out at that time he was still specifically looking for Luffy, not just someone. Page, for reference.

Not necessarily. I mean, yes, he certainly believed he would find Luffy again, but I don't think he pinned all his hopes on Luffy specifically. It was just, as he says, fate that would lead them back to each other. Them hearing about Luffy on Water 7 was their supposed "proof" of said fate. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

@pwnobi:

If that was his original intention, I'm wondering what his plan would have been had he captured Luffy instead of Ace.

Given the nature of my theory, that is an understandably common question (doubt), to which I have no answer. As this is fiction, and there very well could never have even been a written down alternative scenario, I can only repeat what I said earlier on the matter: "I think the Marines would take any bait offered to them on this front, seeing as how they really want to take Whitebeard down and more than likely want to establish more power throughout the world." As for specifics, who knows? As far as I am concerned, the most important thing to consider is that Blackbeard and his rag-tag team of merry men would have a hell of a time dethroning Whitebeard by themselves, and Blackbeard should know full well what he would be going up against. Given that, having the Whitebeard pirates and Marines go down (or weaken each other) at the same time should be a deliciously tempting idea, to which I am sure he could devise a plan for instigating if he had to. Toss "fate" into the mix as a reoccurring theme with Blackbeard, and viola…

@pwnobi:

Do you think maybe he has a plan for Sengoku, or maybe even the 5 elder stars? This could be the "show" he was talking about that would rock the world to it's core, or something to that effect.

My theory aside, his comment in Impel Down implies that whatever his show is, it will affect the whole world. I believe Oda could make other options work, but as far as my limited view goes, I want to believe Blacky was referring to the Marines and Whitebeard. Anyway, it's just a theory, and likely something different will happen, but we won't really know until it happens.

[AGOG]

Brennen, the Shichibukai title allows him to bypass the Fishman Island as well… I would think that he would hold onto it until at least he passes that portion of the Red Line.

Unless, he would head through FI alone and completely destroy it, which would introduce Jinbei [who shouldn't die in the war] a reason to despise him and eventually travel towards the future to see him…

Of course, if he does this sort of thing, you could reckon it seems unlikely and such… However, I do think that he will take the "higher" passage since Luffy seems to take the adventurous routes and such, BB just takes the more practical, safer paths in my opinion.

I think that BB will hold onto his title or at least make an effort to keep it until he officially re-enters the NW again with a crew of personal.

In addition, he lacks his own ship at the moment, he would need to get one in order to coat that ship and head under the sea. It'd be more reasonable for him to remain a Shichibukai and just casually cross the Red Line through the World Government Capital and gain his ship there.

[Captain Brooke]

So, one day I sitting around thinking. Wouldn't be amazing if Oda actually let one of his characters die, mainly WB. How great that would be plot wise. But, from Oda's pass arcs we see that all of his characters end up living. No matter the circumstance. Knowing Oda I must say WB probably has a good chance of not kicking the bucket.

Theory:
After the war a heavily wounded WB will somehow escape and go into hiding and retire. For example like Rayleigh, and the WG will spread word that they killed off WB (if BB doesn't beat them to it). After the battle and after all the damage WB has taken, I don't think it's possible for him to remain an active pirate. Especially with all these "silver medalists" gunning for him. I think WB will just be another legend that will disappear from the world leaving only a few to know that he's still out there. Since Oda doesn't seem to kill his characters off.

Now, I don't know what will happen to the WB pirates. I mean it could be possible that Ace will take over the crew, but I don't see him on par with the world's best. I really can't break it down after that because anything could happen. The crew could also split up as an alternative. Can anyone see this, something along these lines?

[madmanricky]

i think that why he was reiterating the whole point about how he not going to show death and love in his manga was because he is going to show these thing in this arc but only in this arc and don't expect to see it in future arcs

[xAcEx]

@Captain:

So, one day I sitting around thinking. Wouldn't be amazing if Oda actually let one of his characters die, mainly WB. How great that would be plot wise. But, from Oda's pass arcs we see that all of his characters end up living. No matter the circumstance. Knowing Oda I must say WB probably has a good chance of not kicking the bucket.

Theory:
After the war a heavily wounded WB will somehow escape and go into hiding and retire. For example like Rayleigh, and the WG will spread word that they killed off WB (if BB doesn't beat them to it). After the battle and after all the damage WB has taken, I don't think it's possible for him to remain an active pirate. Especially with all these "silver medalists" gunning for him. I think WB will just be another legend that will disappear from the world leaving only a few to know that he's still out there. Since Oda doesn't seem to kill his characters off.

Now, I don't know what will happen to the WB pirates. I mean it could be possible that Ace will take over the crew, but I don't see him on par with the world's best. I really can't break it down after that because anything could happen. The crew could also split up as an alternative. Can anyone see this, something along these lines?

Yeah I could definitely see something like this happening. Oda never kills off any character that play a major role. I bet we will even see Mr. 2 resurface somehow even though it appears that Magellan has killed him. I hope that WB dies, then Ace could take over the crew and become Luffys rival or something.

[herr_sebbe]

The very fact that people even remotely can begin to play with the thought that they think that they might actually believe that Mr.2 is dead makes me wonder what series they think they've been reading the last 10 years… >:S

[xAcEx]

My somehow was meant as sarcasm lol

[AGOG]

@herr_sebbe:

The very fact that people even remotely can begin to play with the thought that they think that they might actually believe that Mr.2 is dead makes me wonder what series they think they've been reading the last 10 years… >:S

Not to mention that Okamas seem to "never" die…