Chapter 466 "Conclusion" Discussion

nelsonroyale

@MonkeyDMalcolm:

are you saying Mihawk > Enel ? a lot of ppl r speculating about Norland just like they are speculating about ryuma. You make it seems as killing a mythical/legendary monster is a small feat. Ryuma attack launch on zoro was devastating and he just a mere shell of his former self. Your obv a Mihawk fanboy so just go some where and wish mihawk was a main character in the story

Nothing has been mentioned about the dragon, there is no specualtion to made on that account. Oda said that lucci could take down enel, and Mihawk is a lot stronger than lucci. Im not a mihawk fanboy, or a fanboy of any character…but people who are inferring something on the strength or ryuma are ridiculous. Also, its never been said he was a shell of his former strength....this is shounen...the strongest are saved to the end...Mihawk is on the level of freaking shanks...Ryuma is some sub-boss in a small (but great) side arc....We have had nothing said about Ryuma, but we have heard numerous times that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman...even Zoro acknowledges him as such...plus Mihawks sword was said to be the most powerful in the world, where as Ryuma's is just one of the 21 excellent swords...its just common sense really

Brook

@nelsonroyale:

Nothing has been mentioned about the dragon, there is no specualtion to made on that account. Oda said that lucci could take down enel, and Mihawk is a lot stronger than lucci. Im not a mihawk fanboy, or a fanboy of any character…but people who are inferring something on the strength or ryuma are ridiculous. Also, its never been said he was a shell of his former strength....this is shounen...the strongest are saved to the end...Mihawk is on the level of freaking shanks...Ryuma is some sub-boss in a small (but great) side arc....We have had nothing said about Ryuma, but we have heard numerous times that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman...even Zoro acknowledges him as such...plus Mihawks sword was said to be the most powerful in the world, where as Ryuma's is just one of the 21 excellent swords...its just common sense really

Do you have a link for the ''Lucci could take down Enel'' comment? If you're referring to Oda mirroring Luffy's words as ''There are plenty of guys stronger than you'', then that hardly means that Lucci could take Enel out. Misquoting the author of the manga the board is centered on is a very fast way to piss people off.

If you…want more...advice...typing...like this...makes your posts...extremely...hard to read...it's just...common sense..really.

Rai

@Fire Fist:

It doesn't make him stronger, per se. Rather, it makes him more determined… putting him in the right mindset.

Also, Ryuuma was probably the strongest swordsman of his day, as Norland was probably the strongest swordsman of HIS day. Norland was just unbelieveable in general, because Zoro's sword didn't even dent Tsulala and Norland cut his grandfather Kashi-sama right in half with one stroke.

However, I think there's a trick to Ryuuma's sword. It does look like he presses a button on one panel to activate a mechanism... and then immediately does the move that blows a whole in the wall.

I think it's a vibration device that makes the sword vibrate at extremely high speed. That way, something like the pound cannons would have incredible force.

And I think that Zoro will use Shin-3000 Realms to defeat him, using Brooke's shikomizue as his third.

What makes you think Ryuuma can't do the vibration by himself, giving him the effect? Look at Luffy's Rocket from the Morgan arc, it has around the same effect. Ryuuma is just pressing the sword forward in high speed.

bedrock

@nelsonroyale:

Nothing has been mentioned about the dragon, there is no specualtion to made on that account. …..

Sorry but I really can´t understand what you are trying to say… It seems you still haven´t read Odas one-shot "Monsters". Do so - then talk again.

@nelsonroyale:

… Im not a mihawk fanboy, or a fanboy of any character....

You sound like one. I don´t remember that it was stated anywhere that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in human history - he is the strongest just now. There might have been lots of stronger ones in history (we simply don´t know).

@nelsonroyale:

…but people who are inferring something on the strength or ryuma are ridiculous. ...

again: go read "Monsters"

@nelsonroyale:

… Also, its never been said he was a shell of his former strength....

Right! But the opposite isn´t stated either:getlost: - so it´s open to speculation and debate. There were several good arguments and thoughts in previous posts about that matter. If you disagree just let us know your arguments/thoughts and we can have some fun. An unfounded and arrogant "know-better"/"know-everything" attitude is just annoying - and doesn´t make you look very bright (if I might add that).

nelsonroyale

@bedrock:

Sorry but I really can´t understand what you are trying to say… It seems you still haven´t read Odas one-shot "Monsters". Do so - then talk again.

You sound like one. I don´t remember that it was stated anywhere that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in human history - he is the strongest just now. There might have been lots of stronger ones in history (we simply don´t know).

again: go read "Monsters"

Right! But the opposite isn´t stated either:getlost: - so it´s open to speculation and debate. There were several good arguments and thoughts in previous posts about that matter. If you disagree just let us know your arguments/thoughts and we can have some fun. An unfounded and arrogant "know-better"/"know-everything" attitude is just annoying - and doesn´t make you look very bright (if I might add that).

actually read monsters last night, and it was interesting to see how much Oda's work has vastly improved (especially in terms of art). Anyway, that was just a basic one shot he did back in the days…sure Ryuma is a reference to that character...but he isnt that character. Its very common for authors/directors to incorporate parts of previous works. There is absolutely no proof.

Anyway, its a pretty stupid convo...basically the manga has stated: Mihawk strongest swordsman alive, Ryuma legendary samurai who killed a dragon...which divulges zilch apart from him being pretty strong. Its been stated numerous times that Mihawk is Zoro's ultimate goal...quite easy to come to conclusion. It just seem pretty stupid how people talk about history in one piece which hasnt been written by Oda. It doesnt exist...One piece is Oda creation period. If he hasnt written it or hinted at it, it doesnt exist. If he says somebody is the strongest, thats it...if he doesn't there is absolutely no room to infer at all.

As for reference to my own intelligence...pretty funny

ps The enel lucci stuff, I thought Oda commented it in SBS along with the supposed 500 Mil bounty for enel, but cant find a source so cant really confirm.

Rai

@nelsonroyale:

actually read monsters last night, and it was interesting to see how much Oda's work has vastly improved (especially in terms of art). Anyway, that was just a basic one shot he did back in the days…sure Ryuma is a reference to that character...but he isnt that character. Its very common for authors/directors to incorporate parts of previous works. There is absolutely no proof.

Stop being so stubborn already, it's getting annoying.
Let me tell you like this.
NO NEED FOR SOLID PROOF TO KNOW SOMETHING. Half the jokes in OP are built on our own common sense. Ryuuma is meant to be considered as strong as that character or stronger.

Moria

Stop saying that Ryuuma isn't from monsters. Jesus! Zoro said himself he was "That Old Samurai from a long time ago" What other Samurai would it be named Ryuuma.

boiga

@nelsonroyale:

actually read monsters last night, and it was interesting to see how much Oda's work has vastly improved (especially in terms of art). Anyway, that was just a basic one shot he did back in the days…sure Ryuma is a reference to that character...but he isnt that character. Its very common for authors/directors to incorporate parts of previous works. There is absolutely no proof.

Anyway, its a pretty stupid convo...basically the manga has stated: Mihawk strongest swordsman alive, Ryuma legendary samurai who killed a dragon...which divulges zilch apart from him being pretty strong. Its been stated numerous times that Mihawk is Zoro's ultimate goal...quite easy to come to conclusion. It just seem pretty stupid how people talk about history in one piece which hasnt been written by Oda. It doesnt exist...One piece is Oda creation period. If he hasnt written it or hinted at it, it doesnt exist. If he says somebody is the strongest, thats it...if he doesn't there is absolutely no room to infer at all.

That the current Ryuma is meant to be made from the corpse of the One Shot Ryuma seems fairly obvious. Both were samurai warriors named ryuma with big katanas that killed a dragon in a Japan-like nation. How much more correlation could there be?

And like Bedrock mentioned, in the "Monsters" one shot, ryuma is inferred to be the strongest swordsman of his age, which is the same status that Mihawk currently carries. Sure, one could argue that the strongest swordsman during the Great Age of Pirates is going to be stronger than the strongest from an era equivalent to feudal japan, but "there is nothing like any proof for this though…nothing..." as you put it.

I would agree with you though that FFA is pushing it more than a little to say that Norland was at that level of swordsmanship. Tsulala is to kashi what the giant ride-able South Birds in skypiea are to the parrot sized south birds on jaya. Sure, Norland's skills were impressive, but no more so than Oimo and Kashi's attack on the giant gold fish with island sized poop. However, it is wrong to assume in One Piece that later enemies are inherently more powerful than earlier enemies. I mean, could you really argue that foxy is stronger that crocodile or enel?

Like others have mentioned though, Ryuma is meant to be a healthy stepping stone for Zoro to reach the level of swordsmanship where "splitting the sky" is commonplace. He's not supposed to be stronger than mihawk, but he is meant to let zoro grow past the point where mihawk could beat him with a nail clipper.

dinty

EDIT :
Whoa! In the time it took me to write this, a half-dozen other responses similar to mine popped up! So as not to belabor the point or appear to gang up on nelsonroyale, I've scaled my response back a bit…

@nelsonroyale:

…basically the manga has stated: Mihawk strongest swordsman alive …

I'm confused, nelsonroyale – does this mean that strength is linear and that nobody in the past could ever have been as strong as anyone from the future? For example, in our own world, wouldn't it be possible that some ancient Greek wrestler was "the strongest" of his time, but that he may or may not have been stronger than any of our present-day wrestlers? The only way we'd know for sure is by resurrecting him and having him fight someone in the present day, but even if he lost that fight, it wouldn't change the fact that he was the strongest person in his own time, if not in the present day.

If he hasnt written it or hinted at it, it doesnt exist. If he says somebody is the strongest, thats it…if he doesn't there is absolutely no room to infer at all.

Well, we've seen plenty of hints so far in the manga that Ryuma is strong. Look how many times he's defeated Brook; look how skillfully he sliced the door to the lab; look how damaged the tower is; and the most obvious : after less than five minutes of fighting, Zoro is down. I think those are pretty good "hints" that Ryuma is a strong guy – maybe not as strong as Mihawk, but stronger than most others.

AlmostLegendary

@nelsonroyale:

Nothing has been mentioned about the dragon, there is no specualtion to made on that account. Oda said that lucci could take down enel, and Mihawk is a lot stronger than lucci. Im not a mihawk fanboy, or a fanboy of any character…but people who are inferring something on the strength or ryuma are ridiculous. Also, its never been said he was a shell of his former strength....this is shounen...the strongest are saved to the end...Mihawk is on the level of freaking shanks...Ryuma is some sub-boss in a small (but great) side arc....We have had nothing said about Ryuma, but we have heard numerous times that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman...even Zoro acknowledges him as such...plus Mihawks sword was said to be the most powerful in the world, where as Ryuma's is just one of the 21 excellent swords...its just common sense really

yea a dead zombie floating in an unknown that barely anyone knows about is really going to get metion of being the strongest swordsman good job buddy your theories are so good. Mihawk fan boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

bobbyballard

All anyone needs to know is that Ryuuma is, at this moment, stronger than Zoro and Brooke.

That is all that matters, I promise you.

DiableShoot

Ryuma being stronger is just part of one piece and how great it is. The heroes always get beat around for a while. Zoro will turn this one around,though.

Unrivaled

People, we are talking about characters that are nowhere near Thriller Bark.

Ryumma is strong, yes, but Oda himself has already labeled the top three powers of the World and he has labeled the top THREE individulas from each powers!

Whitebeard (An Emperor) The Strongest Man in the World!

"Hawkeye's" Mihawk (Shichibukai) The Strongest Swordsman in the World!

Aokiji (Marines) The Marines Strongest!

Ryumma is strong but obviously not on any of these levels. Lets enjoy Ryumma's strength for now instead of comparing him to others powers that are obviously above him.

Edit:@__nelsonroyale:__ Oda Never said anything about Lucci beating Ener, it's quite obvious Lucci couldn't beat Ener anyway.

Senshi Mizaka

A bit OT, but is there no new chapter this week? Normally, the spoilers are up by now.

Anyway, it's hard to believe that Usopp beat Perona without even hitting her. It's funny that she was gullible enough to fall for his tricks.

Jay_n_Silentbob

@Senshi:

A bit OT, but is there no new chapter this week? Normally, the spoilers are up by now.

Anyway, it's hard to believe that Usopp beat Perona without even hitting her. It's funny that she was gullible enough to fall for his tricks.

Yea, there's no new One Piece chapter this week (I think it's the same for all the other Jumps…Not sure, though), because of some Japanese holiday.

Mad Wanze

@pokemaster95:

Ussop Breaking walls was the best he never broke a wall before.Go Ussop.

He blew up a wall when he attacked the Franky House.

Kingoffans

Not necessarily. There's no evidence that says the Rokougan wouldn't work against Logia types since it's not an ordinary attack. Besides Lucci's so smart, he'd probably figure Enel's weakness and put on Rubber Gloves. Yes ladies and gentlemen^^ The key to beating this monstrosity is rubber gloves^^ Get your rolling pins house wives!

Mad Wanze

Rokuougan does internal damage. The insides of a logia are made of their element. You can't hurt an element. Except Blackbeard.

AlmostLegendary

@kingoffans:

Not necessarily. There's no evidence that says the Rokougan wouldn't work against Logia types since it's not an ordinary attack. Besides Lucci's so smart, he'd probably figure Enel's weakness and put on Rubber Gloves. Yes ladies and gentlemen^^ The key to beating this monstrosity is rubber gloves^^ Get your rolling pins house wives!

don't forget about mantra even if he had the rubber gloves his attacks would never connect

FireFistAce 0

@Rai:

What makes you think Ryuuma can't do the vibration by himself, giving him the effect? Look at Luffy's Rocket from the Morgan arc, it has around the same effect. Ryuuma is just pressing the sword forward in high speed.

Because there's a panel where it makes the sound effect of Ryuuma pressing a button.

As for Kashi vs. Tsulala, the point isn't the size. Yes, Tsulala was a lot bigger than Kashi, but that's not the point. The hardness of their skin should be roughly the same; that is, if a swordsman could slice through Kashi, they could slice through Tsulala. But both Zoro and Wiper failed to even put a dent in Tsulala, which speaks volume's of Norland's strength. Even if Norland in present time could only have wounded Tsulala, that would be far more than Zoro or Wiper did to him.

Plus, when we first see Norland, he's dragging up an enormous seaking of Grand Isle make… when have Luffy or Zoro done that? Moomoo and Lord of the Coast hardly count.

Wagomu

How long's Oda taking a break again?

King Kobra

@Fire Fist:

Because there's a panel where it makes the sound effect of Ryuuma pressing a button.

As for Kashi vs. Tsulala, the point isn't the size. Yes, Tsulala was a lot bigger than Kashi, but that's not the point. The hardness of their skin should be roughly the same; that is, if a swordsman could slice through Kashi, they could slice through Tsulala. But both Zoro and Wiper failed to even put a dent in Tsulala, which speaks volume's of Norland's strength. Even if Norland in present time could only have wounded Tsulala, that would be far more than Zoro or Wiper did to him.

Plus, when we first see Norland, he's dragging up an enormous seaking of Grand Isle make… when have Luffy or Zoro done that? Moomoo and Lord of the Coast hardly count.

That's why I always tought that Norland, being obviously some kind of conqueror of his time, had at least "above average" schichibukai strength, and by above average I meant something like Mihawk's level, or even less, but we still ignore how truly powerful are the schichibukai that don't rely on turning into Sand, manipulating their opponents or stealing shadows, and anyways, Mihawk was just playing around with Zoro, so I'm just basing my comparasion on the moment when Mihawk sliced the ship of Don Krieg.

Anyways, I think that Norland is closer to strength to Oimo and Kashi's ultimate technique that sliced trough the giant goldfish, so yeah, he would be stronger than let's say, Crocodile or even Lucci.

Jay_n_Silentbob

@Wagomu:

How long's Oda taking a break again?

I believe it's just for this week, considering this week's a holiday…However, I could be wrong.

EDIT: @Kaimei-Karasuhebi:

Anyways, I think that Norland is closer to strength to **Oimo and Kashi'**s ultimate technique that sliced trough the giant goldfish, so yeah, he would be stronger than let's say, Crocodile or even Lucci.

That was Dorry and Broggy, bud. :P

EDIT EDIT: O, I dare, Monkey…I DARE.

dirt monkey AL

@Wagomu:

How long's Oda taking a break again?

It's not just Oda taking a break. It's the whole magazine.

And it's just for this week, so we'll be getting spoilers next week like usual. forgot the term they had for it - some double issue whatsit thing (And that only means that one chapter will have to suffice for two weeks.)

EDIT: How dare you post ahead of me, Jay!

@Kaimei-Karasuhebi:

Anyways, I think that Norland is closer to strength to Broggy and Dorry's ultimate technique that sliced trough the giant goldfish, so yeah, he would be stronger than let's say, Crocodile or even Lucci.

Fixed.

Kingoffans

But we don't know the mechanics of the attack. An explanation was never given except that you can only use it if you completely master all Rokushiki. And don't forget Lucci had Soru so Enel wouldn't be able to touch him and Lucci can then kick his ass. Even if he is as fast as lightning, I doubt his reflex reactions are as fast.

LUCCI DA PIGEON PIMP

You know that ener don't need to be close to his opponent to kill him , you know that there is something called "el thor" that ener can use at any moment , at any distance .
Lucci is strong but he is nowhere near ener in term of overall power.

When was the last time lucci destroyed an island ?

Gorlom

please dont turn this into a "x is stronger then y" thread.

Mad Wanze

Especially when X is in fact NOT stronger than Y.

Gorlom

z OHKOs all the letters in the alphabet!

Rai

@bobbyballard:

All anyone needs to know is that Ryuuma is, at this moment, stronger than Zoro and Brooke.

That is all that matters, I promise you.

Nah, not really. This forum won't be here if that was all.
Stuff known by the name SPECULATIONS are suddenly miraculously appearing.

@Fire Fist:

Because there's a panel where it makes the sound effect of Ryuuma pressing a button.

Whoa, wait wait wait. Really? The SFX is a button press?
Then the button thingy is as good as obvious.

Cap'n Carter

Uh… I think that SFX can just as easily be Ryuuma tightening his grip.

Rai

Don't make me confused people.

Tsuchirinhon

@Fire Fist:

Because there's a panel where it makes the sound effect of Ryuuma pressing a button.

Uh, that's just a small panel showing Ryuuma adjusting the grip on his handle.

… A button. Hoooooooooooooooboy.

cdjgamer

theres no jump this week on 5 days till chapter 467 spoilers

Cap'n Carter

I guess some people took Franky's "a pistol?!" line too literally.

It's kind of obvious that Ryuuma's just so damn strong that a single thrust takes a chunk out of the wall.

captainjustin

does anyone else think that zoro has actually beaten ryuuma? the flashback isn't totally complete, and we know that zoro has been knocked out of the building, but perhaps he just performed a powerful move (or did one as ryuuma did one). ryuuma looks ablaze, which is pretty bad ass, but that could be a result of whatever zoro just did to him.

i really don't think zoro can lose after making that vow after mihawk… i think oda is messing with us by showing it in the manner that he is. like a tarantino movie, i think we'll be surprised with how those five minutes actually played out.

or i could be in denial and zoro is just going to get up and then kick ryuuma's ass--i mean, he hasn't even put his bandana on yet...

Moria

wheres that guy who has a sig that says TB pirates and once they get beat is says "owned". I wanna see it for some reason. If u read this, please post, with Perona now owned. :D

bedrock

@captainjustin:

does anyone else think that zoro has actually beaten ryuuma? the flashback isn't totally complete, and we know that zoro has been knocked out of the building, but perhaps he just performed a powerful move (or did one as ryuuma did one). ryuuma looks ablaze, which is pretty bad ass, but that could be a result of whatever zoro just did to him.

You are with nelsonroyale on this one - he posted this thought earlier in this thread (but it got lost in some stupid argument …), as he pointed out fittingly this would also explain Frankys strange question about the meaning of what he saw.

Frankys question puzzled me too and it (the question) would make sense if the situation was so strangely screwed (winner lying down - looser towering above him...) but for my feeling it would be too cheap a gag for Oda, I´m with your second option: Zorro got his ass handed badly in this first clash but the fight is not over now (more conventional for shonen).

AlmostLegendary

I hope da fight is over and that brooke steps back in but thats just the fan boy inside of me talking

dinty

Frankys question puzzled me too

I'm not sure that Franky even saw what happened on the roof – he and Brook are looking out through the hole in the lab that's on the opposite side of where Zoro fell. And Zoro didn't fall from that floor, he fell from the roof above them. So when Brook says "this fight is over", he's probably only guessing that it's over because the noise has stopped and the dust is settling.

What confuses me is how Zoro and Ryuma got up to the roof in the first place. And maybe that was confusing for Franky too. Maybe all the debris that fell around them made a sort of "hill" that they could climb to get up there, or maybe Ryuma has some sort of whirlwind attack that whisked them both up there …

We'll just have to wait patiently until next week, eh?

ITSALION

I want to know how the futch they ended up on the roof.

Kudo29

no chapter this week?

Tsuchirinhon

@Kudo29:

no chapter this week?

Nope. Not 'till next week.

Greg

Yeah, that's an interesting idea. I'm happy I arrived at it myself rather than reading it here first.

That would be very cool if Oda was just playing with our assumptions and Zoro is indeed the winner. Sure Zoro fell but there's nothing in there to indicate he lost.

Archibald Desmond Deus

@Greg:

Yeah, that's an interesting idea. I'm happy I arrived at it myself rather than reading it here first.

That would be very cool if Oda was just playing with our assumptions and Zoro is indeed the winner. Sure Zoro fell but there's nothing in there to indicate he lost.

Obviously Zoro is going to win this fight, but I doubt him getting shot out of a roof is a sign that the battle is going in his favor. Ryuuma does have the body of a legendary swordsman with the weird sword skills of a singing skeleton, and that just spells 'Beast' in my book.

Greg

but I doubt him getting shot out of a roof is a sign that the battle is going in his favor.

Since when did we see any proof he was falling against his own will?

Ryuuma does have the body of a legendary swordsman with the weird sword skills of a singing skeleton, and that just spells 'Beast' in my book.

What does that have to do with the battle leading up to that point? The chapter ended in flashback and IF it deals with Zoro's fight when it comes back (because promos mention Chopper) we're likely to pick up in flashback.

Because Ryuma is standing up there with wierd shit swirling around him it means he did that?

I recall Blueno smiling after Luffy clocked him, just before falling down.

Archibald Desmond Deus

@Greg:

Since when did we see any proof he was falling against his own will?

So he just decided to jump through a wall and land flat on his back right? That makes no sense whatsoever. More likely he was ejected through the wall by Ryuuma who was looking down on him after he fell.

@Greg:

What does that have to do with the battle leading up to that point? The chapter ended in flashback and IF it deals with Zoro's fight when it comes back (because promos mention Chopper) we're likely to pick up in flashback.

Because Ryuma is standing up there with wierd shit swirling around him it means he did that?

It has to do with the battle leading up to this point because it places emphasis on Ryuuma's abilities and why Zoro was probably getting his ass handed to him early on in the fight. I don't know why Ryuuma's swirling around like that, he probably was hurt but keep in mind he was still standing.

@Greg:

I recall Blueno smiling after Luffy clocked him, just before falling down.

I recall Luffy still standing up and threatening Blueno with a new attack, not lying on his back while his opponent looked down on him.

Brook

@Greg:

Since when did we see any proof he was falling against his own will?

Zolo: -THROWS HIMSELF THROUGH THE WALL-
Frankie: Did he just throw himself through the wall?
Brooke: Yeah, looks like it.
Ryumo: -IS ON FIRE FOR NO REASON OUT OF NOWHERE, STRIKES A POSE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION-

Gorlom

Greg i see your point and i also belive in the possibility.. but you sound a bit like you are hopeing against all odds that things arent like they seem and Zoro won the exchange.

the comment about the duel beeing over is what annoy me. i would really like there to be a continueation where Zoro stands up again and deals a few decisive blows to ryuuma.

(didnt Zoros Win against cabaji result in him falling down as well btw?)

Greg

So he just decided to jump through a wall and land flat on his back right? That makes no sense whatsoever. More likely he was ejected through the wall by Ryuuma who was looking down on him after he fell.

Yeah, Zoro would never do something like put himself in danger if it meant winning. What was I thinking?

http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemanga/onepiecechapter122.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2435

It has to do with the battle leading up to this point because it places emphasis on Ryuuma's abilities and why Zoro was probably getting his ass handed to him early on in the fight.

You speak about what's going to happen as if you're Oda and writing it yourself.

I on the other hand have proposed an idea I happen to like. Who are you to say whether it will unfold that way or not?

I don't know why Ryuuma's swirling around like that, he probably was hurt but keep in mind he was still standing.

Yeah. Because if you're standing after a major clash, it means you've won.

http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemanga/onepiecechapter189.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3680

I recall Luffy still standing up and threatening Blueno with a new attack, not lying on his back while his opponent looked down on him.

So…you're suggesting Oda uses the exact same result for victory in all cases? Has Ryuma even said anything?

Man, I just can't stand these people that think they're Oda and can say for certain what will/won't transpire. How self-important can you be?

(didnt Zoros Win against cabaji result in him falling down as well btw?)

HAH! Even better example than mine.

the comment about the duel beeing over is what annoy me.

Oh as far as the progression of the comic is concerned it isn't over one way or another. Either it will continue in some form or Zoro has won and we will see the events that led up to that scenario.

Oda's playing the Rashomon card.

We've been given a seemingly case-closed scenario that made stronger by our own assumptions. However, he was careful to avoid ANY hint of pointing out any victor.

Franky: Did… that samurai just say something...?
What...
Hahh.
What did that mean?

Could very well have been a consession or him thanking Zoro for the battle.

Brook: …It meant...
The fight is finished...!!!

Okay, so the fight is finished and we see Zoro falling. If we're quick to jump to conclusions it would seem Zoro is the loser simply because he's falling.

Well….does that mean Luffy lost in Arabasta because he fell after shooting Croc into the air? No. But he fell as a result of his attack. And here we simply see Zoro falling after what was some spectacular attack no doubt.

Also note there is no dread or happiness in Franky's face. It's extremely ambiguous.

Anyway, just a thought.