I've been rereading past chapter and stumble upon this
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/431/18/
"Fist of love" as Garp called it could be infused with haki as luffy was hurt as well as sanji's comment saying that luffy should be able to withstand the attack. Could be the same sort of attack as sentoumaru palm attack. any thought?
Yeah I hope so. But unless Zoro's eaten a DF in private, its my best guess.
Yeah, or maybe he learn how to do Kage Bunshin no Jutsu 
I've been rereading past chapter and stumble upon this
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/431/18/
"Fist of love" as Garp called it could be infused with haki as luffy was hurt as well as sanji's comment saying that luffy should be able to withstand the attack. Could be the same sort of attack as sentoumaru palm attack. any thought?
Another posibillity I think.:wassat:
this is just being stretched too far.
Zoro crushed a ladies skull, the resulting pain will make anyone weaker. Especially if its your brain thats getting damaged.
Roger have a DF or Haki? Why not both? Though I'd find it funny if Rodger had the same DF as Luffy.
Zoro hearing the enviroment, I just took it as a swords skill that he heard about from his master and just happened to learn how to apply it during his fight (Which he subquently hasn't shown since then, which I always ask why he has trouble cutting XX if he should be able to hear it and thus cut it). Yanno, being one with your surroundings, stuff like that. Besides it was implied that Zoro was able to beat everyone at that school (outside of the sensei's daughter) which is including the sensei, had the sensei knew and could apply haki, zoro wouldn't have been able to do that.
OMG new rumor, Senseis haki training is what killed his daughter.
Garp's love tap to luffy was obviously supposed to be a joke, including them both falling asleep at the same time. Maybe that sleep bubble from their mouth is the result of each others haki's canceling eachother out "rolleyes".
Garp's love tap to luffy was obviously supposed to be a joke, including them both falling asleep at the same time. Maybe that sleep bubble from their mouth is the result of each others haki's canceling eachother out "rolleyes".
Why is it so unbelievable? Garp having the knowledge to use haki and use it unconsciously doesn't seem far fetch. Luffy even developed it on his own to smaller degree. Garp? a guy than even cornered Gol D Roger while he was alive should be able to AT LEAST rival Rayleigh his first mate(who was proven to be very full of haki himself)…don't you think?
The word you're looking for is not "stretching" it's "foreshadowing"
I believe that Haki is not a type of invisible aura but a type of undetected wind and isn´t related to the spirit of the person but it can take away the spirit of the others and if it is powerful enough it can block the devil fruit powers.
Every type of material in the one piece world can "sing" with its wind. Zoro was able to hear it against Mr. 1 but thanks to Rayleigh and his description about Roger we know that everything has a "voice" of a wind related to them.
Since Haki is a type of "invisible wind" and not an aura it can take down the spirits of the people if they aren´t strong enough. For example Luffy unconscious Haki took down Momotaro because it took away the spirit of the poor bull.
But Haki and spirit are related, since it is needed to have an high spirit to do a Haki strong enough to take down powerful enemies. Haki isn´t aura or spirit but it comes from it and can be translated to weapons which can take down the "spirit" of the others things and break it. Take Margaret and her arrow for example, when she shoot against Luffy and broke the rock she was transmiting her Haki to the arrow and since it is stronger than the one in the rock then the rock became broken.
Since Haki is a type of "invisible wind" and not an aura it can take down the spirits of the people if they aren´t strong enough. For example Luffy unconscious Haki took down Momotaro because it took away the spirit of the poor bull.
But Haki and spirit are related, since it is needed to have an high spirit to do a Haki strong enough to take down powerful enemies. Haki isn´t aura or spirit but it comes from it and can be translated to weapons which can take down the "spirit" of the others things and break it. Take Margaret and her arrow for example, when she shoot against Luffy and broke the rock she was transmiting her Haki to the arrow and since it is stronger than the one in the rock then the rock became broken.
What i understood about "everything has a voice" is that everything vibrate in his own frequency spectrum. But your theory about transmitting teh haki is nice.
I always thought Zoro's steel cutting tecnique was some kind of transitional, unperfected upgrade. Supposedly it allows him to hear the 'breath of all things' but he ONLY uses it to cut steel. I also never understood why hes only able to cut steel with Shishi Sonson and not all his attacks (although I thought he did when he cut Omu's Iron cloud fork thingy). Zoro is kind of a brute force character imbued with really spiritualistic tecniques, but I dont think he fully understands them, himself.
Its probably that the monster trio will all develop, through their own stories during their separation, some form of ability that will be similar or allow them to learn haki in the future.
In that race I think Luffy has the advantage, being the main character and all. Also when he made the bull pass out it was the same stress lines weighing down on it that were drawn when Shanks knocked out Whitebeard's crew and Rayleigh took out the auction house.
I't be cool if Haki allowed someone to bypass devil fruit-type defenses but had some kind of difficult limitation. I don't think this is likely, however. A lot of characters seem to be being introduced right now that are being hinted at having this ability. Just like in the 'will Zoro get a seastone sword' debate. I think if Haki absolutely beat all devil fruits, hands down, it would kinda cheapen the characters' development. Unless its not something they learn until near the very end of the manga.
Also. ZOMG no one's mentioned Usopp using Haki to knock out Perona!
Also. ZOMG no one's mentioned Usopp using Haki to knock out Perona!
That wasn't haki :getlost:
Anyway, I want to post about Zoro. From the beginning he has been showing an aura of badass. I believe that aura is the reason that Zoro's sword techniques are strong. If his aura makes his sword techniques stronger than normal, then it's possible that Zoro has been using haki from the start.
I dunno. You judge this picture:
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Well, at least Oda didn't use this scene in Thriller Bark…
Wild Zombies: Oh no! Mistress!! How?! How could he knock out Mistress Perona with such a thing?!
Usopp: It's only natural to be knocked out by a Hammer of Love!!
The levels of wrong such a statement would generate would be too perilous!! for even a manga-ka of Oda's standing to withstand. Not to mention the H-Doujin Explosion it would create.
And, oh yeah, I'm in the 'Zoro was crushing Miss Monday's skull' Camp. As to his "What's Wrong? Where did all your strength suddenly go?" statement:
Look at his face when he says it. He's not surprised, he's gloating.
He's just taken down nearly a hundred bounty hunters after finally getting something like a good drink for a change. He's also gotten a good opportunity to test his swords.
That's not Haki- that's simple bloodlust.
@_Meh_:
And, oh yeah, I'm in the 'Zoro was crushing Miss Monday's skull' Camp. As to his "What's Wrong? Where did all your strength suddenly go?" statement:
Look at his face when he says it. He's not surprised, he's gloating.
He's just taken down nearly a hundred bounty hunters after finally getting something like a good drink for a change. He's also gotten a good opportunity to test his swords.
That's not Haki- that's simple bloodlust.
I agree with you.
Zoro's bloodlust can be considered similar to Haki. In fact, they're both kinds of "spirit".
"Where's the damn base"
It's a speculation. It doesn't need a literal base. It's just what I gather from observation.
This is on another sub-topic, but since this is the "types of haki thread" I'm thinking of Arlong. What if that ability to attack with water involves haki? It never really made sense back then, no matter how strong Arlong was (and in the grand scheme of things, he wasn't) hurting someone with droplets of water seems impossible.
Now the story seems to be possibility leading to this. Fishman Island has been teasing us forever, but regardless the Shs must inevitably pass it. Currently, Luffy is on an island filled with users of haki, and has displayed the second-to-last shichibukai. Now only Jimbei is left.
Jimbei has been suggested to be as strong as Arlong, yet with Arlong's level of strength this doesn't make sense. Haki can enhance the strength of weaker fighters to the point that it seems they are incredibly strong (again, the last chapter suggests that haki can increase strength without the user actually being strong). If Jimbei were to appear after an arc featuring haki users, his use of haki would need less work to be developed.
So, this train of thought leads me to believe that Jimbei might know haki. Then I go back to Arlong and his tossing water. Then there's that one fishman in the Davy Back fight. I don't know his name but he did use a karate chop that sent a blade of water at Usopp, Robin, and Nami. This may just be an attack similar to Zoro's air blade, but it's still another water themed attack.
So, again, what I'm trying to lead to is this, what if haki can allow someone to control water, like a fishman who has a natural affinity to water? At the very least, maybe water can be haki-enhanced like those arrows the Amazons use. At the most absurd level, maybe Jimbei can control water telekineticly. Wouldn't that be the shit????
So yeah, eat that and think about it. The only problem I have with all this is it would mean that Arlong knows a level of haki, which feels like a plot hole. I can only explain it away by saying, hey, maybe it's a fishman only thing. Knowing haki doesn't instantly make one invincible. As it's already been suggested, a few fighters in One Piece may already have access of haki on some level, like Zoro or Sanji's insane abilities.
Aslo in one of the panels, you can see a sort of aura around Garps fist. Yet again, could be a joke, haki or something totally different.
If Rayleigh was using haki to stop Kizarus logia powers, and in one piece physics, this is possible. Then wouldn't it been perfect for Kuma to send Luffy to an island where they weaponize, so to speak, haki. It would be a perfect place for Luffy to learn how to do the same and grant him the 1 thing he needs to take on logias. I've heard a lot of people talk about everyone upgrading and getting seastone equipments or stuff to help fight devils fruit users, but imo, i think this sounds more pluasable. Of course, its just my theory.
I've been rereading past chapter and stumble upon this
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/431/18/
"Fist of love" as Garp called it could be infused with haki as luffy was hurt as well as sanji's comment saying that luffy should be able to withstand the attack. Could be the same sort of attack as sentoumaru palm attack. any thought?
Going by that, then Nami would've known Haki also for a while now.
I think people try to attribute too many things to Haki (included some blatant strength feats such as the Miss Monday deal). As for what Zoro is doing, well the culmination of his demonic aura and illusions people had been comenting on throughout Water 7 and Enies Lobby seemed to be his "Kiki"(Demon Spirit) Asura. I don't see how that would automatically fall under Haki, when it's a seperate kind of ki altogether (in name at least.)
Haha, All this Discussion because someone decided the word "Ambition" wasn't worth Translating…
This is almost as Stupid as "Nakama"... almost...
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I think that its like in hunter x hunter
i mean a "power" that you are born with
and then there are "branchs" of it
some people needs to train it or "discover" it
other just born knowing how to use it
mantra is a kind of haki that allows you to lisen to the voices of things (probably something like hearing the commands of the brain to the body)
what zoro did was hearing the breath of things, its not the same cause the breath means the rythm, the life itself… to feel and understand that
that "spirit" thing that shanks does its probably... the opossite... instead of hearings other "things" voices/breath/etc ... he stuns them with his own... like shouting to them
i dont know maybe is just an abilty with "hearing, saying, transmiting" feelings/sounds/energy/life
I didn't want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole but here I am.
I'm only here because of something interesting I found myself pondering the other night.
So CP9 was a super secret super lethal squad who would deal with those who stood as a threat to the WG. They were dispatched around the world on undercover missions, some of which took YEARS to complete and we granted the authority to kill.
Yet they couldn't use Haki huh?
Which is when I thought to myself, huh, what if Rokuougan was a Haki maneuver? I doubt I'm the first to consider this idea but boy would I love it if that's how it turned out. Otherwise CP9 being what they were is pretty…meh....in retrospect.
I didn't want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole but here I am.
I'm only here because of something interesting I found myself pondering the other night.
So CP9 was a super secret super lethal squad who would deal with those who stood as a threat to the WG. They were dispatched around the world on undercover missions, some of which took YEARS to complete and we granted the authority to kill.
Yet they couldn't use Haki huh?
Which is when I thought to myself, huh, what if Rokuougan was a Haki maneuver? I doubt I'm the first to consider this idea but boy would I love it if that's how it turned out. Otherwise CP9 being what they were is pretty…meh....in retrospect.
As for why they don't know haki(assuming they were aware of it ofcourse). It's probably because haki is not a technique that pwns all, it's not the supreme ability of fighters, it's just another technique you can learn. The CP9 seem to believe heavily in rokushiki as they all took the time to learn it and they bragged so much about it.
Even tho I hate it, Lucci explained rokuougan to an extent and Luffy even compared it to the reject dial. If it used haki I'm sure Lucci would've mentioned it.
Besides I think it's better to keep the two separate when it comes to those moves and what little we know haki can do but I guess it could be possible although I don't see how it could be proven unless Luffy of all ppl remembered rokuougan and connected to haki whenever he learns it.
It's probably because haki is not a technique that pwns all, it's not the supreme ability of fighters, it's just another technique you can learn.
This is running into the realm of fan-made explanations. Which while debatable, are not something I like to run into. It seems that if many high-level adversaries, including the likes of Shanks and Rayleigh, are adept with the technique(?) then it's a little odd that none of OP's own Deadly Viper Assassination Squad didn't incorprate such a useful technique into their attacks UNLESS it somehow interferes with the use of Rokushiki.
The responsibility lies with Oda to explain this.
If it used haki I'm sure Lucci would've mentioned it.
I'm not so sure about that. Lucci isn't a talker to begin with and prior to that point our only experience with Haki was from Chapter 1 where we didn't even know it was something important. Oda may not have wanted to reveal that he had a bigger idea for something up until that scene on the Moby Dick. Then by looking back on the scene later, we might see it differently.
What I will agree with is in how it was compared to the Dials. In fact, this is what originally made me consider it to be something more than a coincidence. The arrows fired seemed to have impact similar to Dials, although the concept it obviously different. And if what Sentoumaru used winds up being Haki, that reminds me even more of not only the Dials but also Rokuougan.
Luffy of all ppl remembered rokuougan and connected to haki whenever he learns it.
If it's even something Oda intended it could go two ways:
1. SBS
2. Luffy putting it simply (as he so often does), "Like what the Pigeon guy did."
Again, a thought, nothing more. It could just end up being a weak story point.
The responsibility lies with Oda to explain this.
That's why it's unlikely to me that rokuougan uses haki and they simply chose to use rokushiki. I mean it shouldn't be looked at that rokushiki is below haki. Also just because they are the top assassination squad doesn't necessarily mean they have to know this technique. So far haki still hasn't shown that it is useful in a real fight against a strong opponent, strengthening weapons is okay but it ain't like much of the CP9 used projectile weapons or weapons at all(save Kaku and Kumadori).
I'm not so sure about that. Lucci isn't a talker to begin with
Did he not explain what it was to Luffy? He said it was the ultimate(hidden) attack of rokushiki for those who have mastered the other 6 styles. I'm pretty sure then he would've said if it used haki or not. All that stuff about Oda not wanting to reveal haki then is just speculation to safeguard your initial speculation.
Anyway even if rokuougan uses haki it still wouldn't explain why the TOP assassination squad doesn't know haki(except for one person) since Lucci was the only one to use that move. The two don't correlate since you have to master all 6 styles to do rokuougan and from what we know of using haki you don't need to know rokushiki but just have a strong will/drive/vigor/spirit/determination.
Actually Greg, here's a better explanation.
Haki: it is a force that comes from where? the heart. Haki's strength is determined by the user's resolve and determination to go forward despite difficulty.
Now what are the CP9? A bunch of cold-blooded killers. They had muscle, but all their work has lead them to have cold hearts. They never needed haki because they had brute strength. They can't learn haki because their hearts are cold from their work.
Now take a look at people like Rayleigh, Shanks, and Luffy. They are very passionate people who have resolves stronger than the hardest steel and hotter than the sun (slight exaggeration). It would make sense that they can perform strong haki moves.
Now, the amazons are also strong in their hearts, except for Hancock. They all have the determination to die for their country and their queen, so they can use haki, even if it's just a miniscule amount. Hancock herself, well, I don't see her actually using haki, but instead just rely on her powers.
Thus, Lucci using Roku-ougan is probably not haki, but rather pure muscle power. That is, if I'm right.
(bragging) and I thought of all this with the time it took to shower. Lalala.
Haki: it is a force that comes from where? the heart. Haki's strength is determined by the user's resolve and determination to go forward despite difficulty.
Are you using the word "heart" figuratively or literally?
If it's figurative I'd counter with you can be a cold blooded bastard and still be passionate about it. Your definition seems to cross/intertwine personality with ambition.
If that's the case then no bad(evil) guy can use haki lol which would be pretty lame.
What I am basically saying is your definition is based on perspective and how you interpret the character. A person can do evil things but strongly believe what they are doing is the right thing so they should be able to use haki anyway cuz they have strong feelings behind they're actions.
There's no real basis for Hancock not being able to use haki. I actually think she's the strongest(best) haki user on the island since on Amazon Lily strength = beauty. Turning ppl in to stone isn't even considered her strength is what I would speculate to as how she got to be ummm empress?queen?captain?princess? ahhh one of those titles…......
This is running into the realm of fan-made explanations. Which while debatable, are not something I like to run into. It seems that if many high-level adversaries, including the likes of Shanks and Rayleigh, are adept with the technique(?) then it's a little odd that none of OP's own Deadly Viper Assassination Squad didn't incorprate such a useful technique into their attacks UNLESS it somehow interferes with the use of Rokushiki.
Going by Shanks, it's not a subtle technique (Rayleigh might be able to direct it at a single target with some degree of precision, but he's probably the third or fourth strongest character in the series at this point, so his ability to do something isn't proof that others can), which calls into question it's usefulness for a bunch of assassins.
Rokushiki is really only three techniques with a whole host of derivatives that are used in different fashions (Shigan and Rokuougan are merely a localized Tekkai while the same would appear to be true for for Rankyaku, Geppou is a combination of Rankyaku and Soru, while Kami-E is a true oddball), but as an artform is geared around defense and stealth. Making a bunch of people pass out all at once might seem a useful ability, but that simply means that you weren't to do the job in a more quiet fashion. The fewer people who notice that there's something amiss before the job is done and afterwards, the less problems that they're be down the road.
That and there's probably an upper limit of how powerful and ambitious that you want your assassins to be as well. Now, there are probably Rokushiki masters who are familiar with Haki and might incorporate it into their arsenal, but the various members of CP9 really aren't prime candidates for that.
@Zik:
Are you using the word "heart" figuratively or literally?
If it's figurative I'd counter with you can be a cold blooded bastard and still be passionate about it. Your definition seems to cross/intertwine personality with ambition.
If that's the case then no bad(evil) guy can use haki lol which would be pretty lame.
What I am basically saying is your definition is based on perspective and how you interpret the character. A person can do evil things but strongly believe what they are doing is the right thing so they should be able to use haki anyway cuz they have strong feelings behind they're actions.
There's no real basis for Hancock not being able to use haki. I actually think she's the strongest(best) haki user on the island since on Amazon Lily strength = beauty. Turning ppl in to stone isn't even considered her strength is what I would speculate to as how she got to be ummm empress?queen?captain?princess? ahhh one of those titles…......
Although I have stated that haki is powered by a passionate heart, there is a way for villains to have haki. And that is to be truly evil outright. Blackbeard is such a person. He has the strong conviction, but it's for a dark purpose.
Actually a better way to put it is that for haki to developin an evil person, the person needs to have strong feelings, whether it's anger, pride, greed, envy, etc.
Now there's a hole in this theory, and that is why are past villains not capable of haki. That's related to why Luffy doesn't have haki in the past. The person has to develop strength. This strength is a vague unclear idea. Maybe all people have potential for haki, but some kind of strength needs to be developed.
Making a bunch of people pass out all at once might seem a useful ability
Hmm, I wasn't thinking about that aspect as much as I was the explosive nature of the arrows.
Again, that's stepping into rationalizing for characters beyond information that we or possibly even the author has which is great since it promotes discussion, but really not my territory.
This is essentially my 'argument', I find it odd that no mention of it was made by a super elite assassin death squad but we find an island of people who seem to have a great deal of skill with it and those with superior power in the second half of GL seems to depend on this technique. When mulling over this weak aspect in my mind I came upon Rokuougan which seemed like the one possible venue for a haki-related attack and I wonder if we'll find mention of it down the road in some form.
Other than that I really don't want to rationalize things for or against using info we don't and may never have about the characters.
This is essentially my 'argument', I find it odd that…...
I personally plan on sticking with the notion that it is simply a rare ability or hidden art that few people in the world really know – excluding a remote and disconnected island, where it appears to be as common as toilet paper -- outside the people who have high positions with a strong resolve. I have theories about why this person knows and that person does not, but there has been far too much Haki argument of late, and I would wager we will be learning more about it from the author very shortly. As for the CP9 not knowing, aren't we assuming that their cover story is leading them back to their original trainer / master? Perhaps he simply did not know what Haki was, and therefore never trained them in such an art.
Also possible…but...are we really supposed to swallow that the Marines if not the WG don't know what they're dealing with? Ok, yes, I'll admit that's a possibility, however, Kizaru seems to have history with Rayleigh and Garp seems to know an awful lot about Roger, as does Sengoku for that matter and while we cannot say whether Roger bothered with haki or not, his right-hand man certainly did. It would make sense for them to know their enemy. Now, it may not behoove CP9 to deal with Haki since they're a Govt. entity, but being invested with as much authority as they were, if haki would stand to augment their abilities, you'd think they'd dabble in it.
I would also agree that Amazon Lily's residents with their limited access to the world, are not solid evidence of haki being commonplace. However once again, with their leader being a Shichibukai, even with regional restrictions due to treaties, one might think there would be extensive information on their history and culture.
Again, all comes down to it being odd that an elite force like CP9, a organization that was "rumored" to exist only through hushed whispers in dark corners, didn't take advantage of what seems to be the next stage of Luffy's progression. Maybe Oda will make it a point, maybe he won't, but I hope it gets addressed somewhere along the line.
I mean, I suppose the simplest explanation would be that the folks simply had no 'ambition' as it were. They were just doing their jobs. But for that hypothesis to even stand a chance, we need to learn more about it first so I wouldn't offer that as anything I'd endorse.
Maybe Oda will make it a point, maybe he won't, but I hope it gets addressed somewhere along the line. But for that hypothesis to even stand a chance, we need to learn more about it first so I wouldn't offer that as anything I'd endorse.
Yeah. I agree. I'm sure Oda is capable of wrapping it up nicely – question is whether or not he will though, and how.
I, personally, think that Haki, or rather the ability to use Haki resides in every individual to a cetain extent. The ones who are more powerful, are the ones who are able to realize how to use it. Its like the Force of Star Wars - its omnipresent, but one must be force-sensitive and properly trained by a Jedi/Sith to be able to utilize the Force.
Also, while the best fighters seemingly use Haki, it might not be necessary for one to use Haki to be the best. Like, Ali didn't know Kung Fu. Bruce Lee did.
As it regards to haki I still think it's something you have to learn/be taught by someone else. I don't think just having the right qualifications will automatically make you know it.
The demonstration by Margret and the other amazon Lily soldiers shows their some knowledge needed to do it.
So I don't think strong feelings would be the main focus on learning haki.
As for CP9 again I must say even if rokuougan does use haki it still wouldn't explain why the other members wouldn't have some variation of haki in their attack arsenal. Saying why the top assassination squad wouldn't know haki and then suggesting rokuougan uses haki still doesn't cover why one of the members knows it and the other do not.
I must say even if rokuougan does use haki it still wouldn't explain why the other members wouldn't have some variation of haki in their attack arsenal.
Yes, this is a very important point. What we might want to consider though is that Lucci's Douriki was head and shoulders above the rest of them. Now, what known correlation does Douriki even have to haki?
None whatsoever.
And yet…we've seen that it is a measure of 'toughness' and characters that exhibited superior strength and skills were found to exhibit higher Douriki levels. That is to say, strong inividuals like Shanks or Rayleigh probably have high Douriki levels...probably. With Lucci leaving everyone else in the dust, it would make sense for him to be savvy to some abilities the others might not have. Again, when we look at what's driving 90% of CP9, most seem to be doing their job, whereas Lucci has actual bloodlust and to that extent, may actually display 'ambition'.
Again, just baseless theories and talking out loud. I'm looking forward to what we're going to learn about it in the coming months!!!
Yes, this is a very important point. What we might want to consider though is that Lucci's Douriki was head and shoulders above the rest of them. Now, what known correlation does Douriki even have to haki?
Atleast you acknowledge douriki has nothing to do with haki.
I'll still ask since you tried to pursue it. If that is any point at all are you willing to say Margret or any of the other amazons are as strong or stronger than Lucci? Since you're trying to relate strength("toughness") with being able to use haki?
I just don't see the correlation, because Lucci is stronger than the rest of the CP9 he is the only one that knows ONE move that uses haki. Yet the amazons who seem to use it regularly to attack someone are what? weaker than Lucci or stronger than him?
I think there's a certain strength requirement for being able to use haki but I do think the rest of the CP9 have reached that, not just Lucci.
Rokuougan using haki really doesn't have any support behind it. I could say every rokushiki attack uses haki(save soru) since they really don't have a clear explanation on how to do it other than training really hard…........
Oh and as for ambition I think ANYONE can display it, I don't think it's reliant on individual personalities, if anything it might be easier for a person with a strong "drive"
– Not trying to butt in, but I wanted to comment on stuff --
@Zik:
Oh and as for ambition I think ANYONE can display it.
I think terms are being confused. "Ambition" = "Haki". Unless I am wrong – and I am never wrong – Greg was just switching between terms, while using them in their different roles (in this case).
@Zik:
Atleast you acknowledge douriki has nothing to do with haki.
Nothing known to do with it, at least.
@Zik:
If that is any point at all are you willing to say Margret or any of the other amazons are as strong or stronger than Lucci? Since you're trying to relate strength ("toughness") with being able to use haki?
Again, I could be wrong, but I think he (Greg) was using Lucci's bloodlust as evidence to suggest he might have 'ambition' beyond merely being an assassin and thus could use 'Haki', whereas the rest of them were just doing their job. Not so much that in order to use Haki you (might) have to be at a certain level of strength, which only Lucci was at. Though like you said, this might in fact be a requirement to use it…who knows.
@Zik:
Rokuougan using haki really doesn't have any support behind it.
Well, it does in the sense that it was able to harm Luffy like an impact dial – rather than a physical blow -- in which if what Sentoumaru used was indeed Haki, it would be a similar type of ability.
Now I am going out on a limb from another theory of mine, but again if what Zoro has used in the past was Haki – without him realizing it -- perhaps the same can be said for the CP9. Perhaps they were using it in various ways, but in a different and slightly ignorant way? As you said, other rokushiki abilities could be forms of Haki. Though this is purely speculation, if Haki allows you to "imbue" and thus strengthen an object then theoretically it might allow you to strengthen your natural defense and also increase attacking ability as well or something, in which case shigan and tekkai could be a case of strengthening a part of your body and rankyaku and roukuougan could be increasing some sort attack type technique. IDK, I know it is unlikely – but a theory nonetheless.
Edit: I really didn't word this post very well.
Not to intrude between Brennen.exe's and Zik's argument but I'd like to repost something from the 516 spoiler chap regarding Haki.
–-------------------------------------------------------
Here is my take on the whole 'Haki' issue.
I think most of you are overreacting regarding the matter. I think that in reality Haki will become somewhat of a staple in the New World but you guys are overestimating the power you acquire by being able to use this technique.
The whole making-people-fall-to-the-floor-with-foaming-mouths has only been displayed by Shanks (one of the Four Pirate Emperors) and Rayleigh (the first mate of the Pirate Fucking King). Of course these people have incredible ambitions and would be able to project a sense or aura which would be more powerful the anything a fodder pirate can muster.
Aokiji, Kikzru and Sentoumaru as well as Kuma, Moria etc... have proven to be incredibly powerful and I am sure that to a certain extent the do in fact know how to use Haki. But that doesn't mean they can use it to the extent that the aforementioned guys can.
In general the StrawHats have been pretty weak in information regarding what's going on in the world (obviously for storytelling purposes). They didn't know about log poses, Grand Line navigation, Shichibukai, Admirals, EL, CP1-CP8. They are pretty naive in this world and that is how it always is with the main characters because if they know everything then the story cannot be told. Hell they hadn't even heard of any other Supernovae whereas all the others seemed to know/have heard of each other. So it makes sense that Haki has been around/being used without them knowing.
While Naruto/DBZ/etc chose to base the manga on such techniques, One Piece developed the characters, other crews and then decided to introduce the whole 'chi' idea at a later stage.
In the same fashion that SSJ/Sharingan would be an analogy to Luffy's Gears (hard to sustain, possibly dangerous at first, but then a relatively common and staple technique (which will happen with Luffy's Gears)), hake is really an easy thing to map an analogy to. Instead of using the obvious Chi/Over 9000 analogy I'm going to compare Haki to skateboarding. The numbers used below are only for educational purposes and probably aren't accurate, but they give a pretty clear picture.
50% of people don't skate at all.
10% of people have skated at some point but don't do it regularly.
40% of people can skate properly.Out of the 40% skaters:
80% can skate from point A to point B as a method of stress release or maybe to get somewhere easier.
15% enjoy trying tricks in skate parks/half pipes etc...
5.9999999996268656716417910447761% can perform tricks in a fairly professional level.
0.000000000373134328358208955224% is Tony Hawk.I don't skate but you see my point. Only one person in the world is Tony Hawk. Sure many people have used Haki but only very, very few are powerful enough to be impressive.
True, however, 100% of those people have the option of becoming that 0.000000000373134328358208955224%. The people that are in that smaller percentail to begin with just make it there faster.
And who knows, maybe the Will Of D can tie into the whole "Haki" thing.
As far as the whole Haki=Ki/Chi/Energy/Whatevertehfck goes, every author has a different style. Just go with it.
True, however, 100% of those people have the option of becoming that 0.000000000373134328358208955224%.
As unrelated to the thread as this is, that is not true. You are suggesting that anyone can become as good at skateboarding as Tony Hawk, right? That is just not true. People have different capabilities, disabilities, strengths, weaknesses, determination, talents, and lack-thereof's.
I'll still ask since you tried to pursue it. If that is any point at all are you willing to say Margret or any of the other amazons are as strong or stronger than Lucci? Since you're trying to relate strength("toughness") with being able to use haki?
None whatsoever, but what I was trying to intimate was that Lucci as a 'boss' figure, so to speak within the story, should be privy to certain exceptional traits or techniques that the others may not be. While admittedly much of this is an opinion, it's just as much an observation that 'boss' or 'leader'-type villains do have, if not stronger techniques, a greater variety of techniques in manga in general.
Oh and as for ambition I think ANYONE can display it, I don't think it's reliant on individual personalities, if anything it might be easier for a person with a strong "drive"
Haki is ambition and ambition is haki, which is to say it's equivalent to the 'drive' you suggested. When I used 'ambition', I meant it as real ambition as opposed to haki, but since haki can also mean such a term, only those with solid real ambition may be able to use it properly. Of course this is conjecture. However we've seen exactly what Oda thinks about a man's ambition and how highly he respects it and has portrayed characters with such real ambition in their ability to utilize haki. Which is why I suggested that while the rest of CP9 essentially floated through their jobs, the only individual who seemed to have a real ambition or 'drive' if you will, was Lucci. Do the others have hopes and dreams, yeah probably, but we saw very clearly that all Lucci wanted was blood.
Again, pure groundless conjecture.
I think terms are being confused. "Ambition" = "Haki". Unless I am wrong – and I am never wrong – Greg was just switching between terms, while using them in their different roles (in this case).
My statement still doesn't change then even if he was saying it in opposition to haki or not, I know he was interchanging the two from time to time and so was I. I'll say it this way though, IMO anyone can learn haki…...
Nothing known to do with it, at least.
Why would it? The doukiri are basically DBZ version that measures a person's level of physical strength….
Again, I could be wrong, but I think he (Greg) was using Lucci's bloodlust as evidence to suggest he might have 'ambition' beyond merely being an assassin and thus could use 'Haki', whereas the rest of them were just doing their job. Not so much that in order to use Haki you (might) have to be at a certain level of strength, which only Lucci was at. Though like you said, this might in fact be a requirement to use it…who knows.
The way I read it he mentioned Lucci's doukiri being the highest of the CP9 as a reason why the rest of them might not know haki.
Well, it does in the sense that it was able to harm Luffy like an impact dial – rather than a physical blow -- in which if what Sentoumaru used was indeed Haki, it would be a similar type of ability.
No it doesn't. He even later said it didn't by saying "Again, just baseless theories and talking out loud." Also you're saying if this, if that. Imapct dials don't use haki or did I skim the Skypeia arc. Sento's attacks physically hit Luffy they were nothing like an impact dial or rokuougan.
None whatsoever, but what I was trying to intimate was that Lucci as a 'boss' figure, so to speak within the story, should be privy to certain exceptional traits or techniques that the others may not be. While admittedly much of this is an opinion, it's just as much an observation that 'boss' or 'leader'-type villains do have, if not stronger techniques, a greater variety of techniques in manga in general.
I understand now but with rokuougan it already stands in a class of its own since Lucci is the only one of the CP9 who could do it. Adding haki doesn't make sense to me, since chap by chap we are learning what new things it could do. It begs the question if he did know haki how come that's all he could do with it?(not belittling rokuougan AT ALL IF it uses haki, just asking) cuz the only variation in that attack is when he used Life Return to get a smaller, more agile body and when he used it again to get to his OG big cat form and make the attack stronger with a wider range.
I'm just saying if he did know haki you'd think he'd do more with it. Also since ppl speculate Sentomaru used haki to hurt Luffy, Lucci's attacks should've been hurting Luffy way more, and you could even speculate he would've lost the fight if Lucci was indeed a haki user. And with that I'll say I don't believe Luffy can beat an adept haki user….......hints to him not beating Hancock IF she is the best haki user of the amazons
About the ambition, it is what we know so far but I don't think that alone is what will allow you to be good at using it in making groups of ppl faint or imbuing in to (projectile)weapons. I see that as part of it but still think you would have to learn it. So where Lucci meets the requirement of real ambition I still think he'd have to be aware that he could use it and if doing this alone figure out all he could do with the technique seeing that Lucci is a person is quite prideful in his own power, he'd attempt to be very gook with haki and well he just didn' show that in his fight with Luffy.
Adding haki doesn't make sense to me, since chap by chap we are learning what new things it could do.
It`s for this reason it makes sense to me. Seeing hints of it here and there make the end result all the better.
It begs the question if he did know haki how come that's all he could do with it?
An excellent question. Im not the one who could answer it but if thats what Oda planned, I`m sure he has an explanation.
It`s for this reason it makes sense to me. Seeing hints of it here and there make the end result all the better.
An excellent question. I
m not the one who could answer it but if thats what Oda planned, I`m sure he has an explanation.
About the adding I just felt the two should be separate since haki is able to do these new things it wouldn't make sense to go back and add it to rokuougan.
As for an explanation, I don't think there's a good enough one even by Oda to explain why if he knows haki that's all he could do with it or if he could do more why he didn't. If Oda was to out right say it was haki, it'd just be an unnecessary retcon imo…..........
I hate taking up too much space with huge posts. So Greg and Zik, if you care to read the garbage I write, un-hide this:
[hide]@Zik:
I'll say it this way though, IMO anyone can learn haki.
Ok. That is much more clear. You said, "anyone can display ambition" which is extremely unclear if what you meant was "anyone can learn haki". Glad you could clarify…I guess.
@Zik:
Why would it?
All I was doing was clarifying that Greg only said that nothing known was related between the two; whether or not Greg meant it that way, he still left the possibility alive that there could be some correlation in the future.
@Zik:
The way I read it he mentioned Lucci's doukiri being the highest of the CP9 as a reason why the rest of them might not know Haki.
Whatever. The point is that Greg was implying more than simply because he has a high level of douriki and is tough – he knows Haki. It went beyond that.
@Zik:
No it doesn't. He even later said it didn't by saying "Again, just baseless theories and talking out loud."
I wasn't referring to what Greg said, and I even made it clear that I was going out on a limb with a theory. I was merely responding to a statement you said that was brought about by what Greg said. That Greg feels it is baseless theory has little to do with my point.
@Zik:
Also you're saying if this, if that. Impact dials don't use Haki or did I skim the Skypeia arc.
Are you criticizing me? I never even hinted that they were the same. I merely noted Luffy's comment / observation.
@Zik:
Sento's attacks physically hit Luffy they were nothing like an impact dial or rokuougan.
I fail to see how they were "nothing like" each other. At this point in the story there has been only four cases that I can recall where a "blunt" physical attack of sorts actually hurt Luffy. Roukuougan, Fist of Love, Sentoumaru's Palm attacks, and Dials. Now, call me crazy for theorizing all you want, but Oda has been foreshadowing Haki like a madman for a while now – with a large increase of late -- and we are now at the tip of the iceberg. Roukuougan wasn't fully explained as far as I can tell, but Oda made a point in showing that it hurt Luffy in a way he had -- at the time -- only been hurt once before: by an impact dial. Immediately after we find Garp doing something similar -- with Sanji making the incredulous comment -- to Luffy, leaving us to believe that it was either a yet-to-be explained phenomena, or simply comic relief. Lastly, we have Sentoumaru's attacks that again were commented by Oda via Sentoumaru for being able to phyically effect Luffy in the same way that Roukuougan / Garp's Fist / Impact Dial were able to, while on top of it all he throws the possibility of it being a DF out the window, which makes it even more obvious a hint. So…is it really that far fetched for me to put 2 and 2 together into this theory? Not so much "if this, if that" -- but as viable as anything else I have seen I would say. I am not saying that Garp's fist, Sentoumaru's palm, and Lucci's roukuougan are utilizing Haki – but that if they were it would make perfect sense, and that the possibility of them being such is a decent given what we know.
@Zik:
I understand now but with rokuougan it already stands in a class of its own since Lucci is the only one of the CP9 who could do it. Adding haki doesn't make sense to me, since chap by chap we are learning what new things it could do. It begs the question if he did know haki how come that's all he could do with it?
I don't want to make my post much larger so I will stop here. I don't speak for Greg on this, but since I like his theory about Rokuougan – and have thought about it myself and suggested it – I will comment my own thoughts on this. I would wager that if it is in fact using Haki, then Lucci simply doesn't realize or didn't realize that is was what he was doing. He could simply have been the most "ambitious" and furthest along in physical training, and therefore be capable of using Haki without realizing it – similar to Luffy's first usage of it that we know of. Also possibly similar to Zoro's possible usage of it thus far. So maybe he could use Haki to a degree without knowing that was in fact what he was doing – again, similar to Luffy.
Back to the beginning though, plain and simply Oda has been dropping hints for a long time now. Possibly for a long long time now. Things that don't quite make sense, like roukuougan, could suddenly make sense if Haki was explained in such a way. I would merely like to consider the possibility. Like I said, it isn't that far fetched…and we all know Luffy is showing signs of naturally knowing and using Haki -- At least one time to date -- so why couldn't someone else have, and not have it explained yet. Hell, this would finally be something that was never explained mid-battle...so it should be a plus for you, right??[/hide]
All I was doing was clarifying that Greg only said that nothing known was related between the two; whether or not Greg meant it that way, he still left the possibility alive that there could be some correlation in the future.
So you felt like arguing/debating a possibility? with me when that wasn't even my main focus?
Whatever. The point is that Greg was implying more than simply because he has a high level of douriki and is tough – he knows Haki. It went beyond that.
That's how you see it. I don't, I read it for what it was and what I thought he implied. In what I quoted of him is what I replied to. I don't know why you felt the need to pick it up and argue it from another angle but yea w/e.
I wasn't referring to what Greg said, and I even made it clear that I was going out on a limb with a theory. I was merely responding to a statement you said that was brought about by what Greg said. That Greg feels it is baseless theory has little to do with my point.
Well I'm gonna have to disagree with what you are saying. I still think it has no support and is baseless.
I fail to see how they were "nothing like" each other.
Fine. If Sentomaru's punches were anything like the impact/reject dial or rokuougan Luffy would've mentioned it and Oda would let us know it was a powerful attack.
I would wager that if it is in fact using Haki, then Lucci simply doesn't realize or didn't realize that is was what he was doing.
That seems like bull shit to me, Lucci knows what his rokuougan can do and it was not the first time he used it when fighting Luffy. I disagree with the notion that he is knowledgeable of rokushiki and the secret 7th ability yet somehow doesn't realize he is using haki or aware of haki when he is doing it.
Zoro using haki is just speculation. What happened with Luffy is what happened with Luffy. If it was similar in Lucci's situation the first time he used rokuougan he would've spoke on it or would've thought about(as in a thought bubble for the readers) the difference in power or the unusual occurrence after using it.
IMO if Lucci used haki I think he would know even if it was his first time I'd go out on the limb that he is aware of the technique and something it can do. Like I said before if you speculate that rokuougan uses haki you can speculate all of the rokushiki attacks use haki(save soru).
Okay, my memory is failing me …what was roukuougan again? That Life-return technique?
@Xai:
Okay, my memory is failing me …what was roukuougan again? That Life-return technique?
No it was the attack that was very similar to the impact/reject dial.
Lucci puts his fists out aiming to his opponent (has to be in close range) and basically a concussive force hits his opponent which goes through them able to attack things behind the target.
Here it is:
!
Life return is just him changing the shape of his body a bit, it wasn't that noticeable. Kumadori used it in a more memorable way.
Ahh yes. Thanks.
Luffy wasn't supposed to be hurt by normal physical attack. The only ones who (if I am not missing anyone) could hurt Luffy by brute force were Garp, Luffy and later Sento..Sentamorou (oh hell, whatever the spelling is - I'll just call him Axe Guy). And Garp making Luffy hurt was more in a comic sense. Axe Guy probably used Haki, though thats speculative. I wouldn't be too surprised to find out Lucci's move utilized (either intentionally or unintentionally) some form of Haki.
But what's the significance of making Lucci use Haki? We probably wont see him again in any significant role. Unless, poeple featured in cover stories always return. If Lucci is never to make a comeback, what difference would it make to find out he was using Haki all along?
Same thing. Gonna hide the extended text Zik.
[hide]@Zik:
So you felt like arguing/debating a possibility with me when that wasn't even my main focus?
Not at all. Since I liked Greg's theory and had once thought of it myself I became interested, when you replied I read it and decided to interact as well. Whether or not he meant to, he left open the possibility while you said that he acknowledged that douriki has nothing to do with Haki. I took that as you were putting words in his mouth he never really said, thus I corrected you by saying that at the least it has nothing known to do with it…but there are many possibilities. I am not arguing either way, simply leaving a door open when there is no reason to close it.
@Zik:
That's how you see it.
Apparently it is how Greg sees it too, because he did a much better job of explaining what I was trying to explain to you. I was just trying to help you understand what he was trying to say – since as you continue to prove, you didn't "see it" that way. Sorry for trying to help you understand something.
@Zik:
Well I'm gonna have to disagree with what you are saying. I still think it has no support and is baseless.
That's fine with me, as long as you don't spout it as fact or criticize me or anyone else for liking the theory. I gave you examples of why it isn't baseless – whether or not you choose to acknowledge it or not has little concern to me.
@Zik:
Fine. If Sentomaru's punches were anything like the impact/reject dial or rokuougan Luffy would've mentioned it and Oda would let us know it was a powerful attack.
But….Oda did. I just explained that. Oda doesn't need to have Luffy himself make the same thoughts every time something happens – that would be too blatant and obvious. Subtle hints are just that, subtle…hints. Having Luffy -- the only other person present -- make the thought about roukuougan makes sense. Having Sanji -- a spectator of the scene -- make a comment about Garp's fist makes sense, while being a little different. Having Chopper and Sentoumaru -- both spectator and perpetrator of the scene -- make individual comments makes sense, while again mixing it up a little bit. Oda went out of his way to have Sentoumaru comment that it wasn't a DF while in the middle of his buildup for Haki, and have Chopper freak out about it's effect at the same time. It is completely reasonable to take this information and theorize that it is potentially related.
@Zik:
That seems like bull shit to me, Lucci knows what his rokuougan can do and it was not the first time he used it when fighting Luffy. I disagree with the notion that he is knowledgeable of rokushiki and the secret 7th ability yet somehow doesn't realize he is using haki or aware of haki when he is doing it.
You are missing my point. Lucci stated it was a secret ability, and it is obviously something he already knew. Are you suggesting that when the One Piece world was created, someone magically explained how Haki worked, and that from then on it was passed down from Master to Apprentice?? No. People learn it, explore it, exploit it, and develop it just like any other art form. I am merely suggesting the possibility that what Lucci discovered or learned was a combination of rokushiki and Haki. A premature form, if you will, that he learned or developed and simply assumed it was because he was a superman and master of rokushiki. In the same way Luffy might develop and has used haki, Lucci could simply be using a combination of skills without knowing that he is in fact using some other mysterious art form to enhance his abilities. I agree that it is unlikely, but I am merely using a simply example I came up with to give an answer / alternative to your question: "It begs the question if he did know haki how come that's all he could do with it?"
@Zik:
Zoro using haki is just speculation. What happened with Luffy is what happened with Luffy.
If it was similar in Lucci's situation the first time he used rokuougan he would've spoke on it or would've thought about(as in a thought bubble for the readers) the difference in power or the unusual occurrence after using it.
IMO, this is "bullshit". For starters, I made it clear that Zoro using Haki was just speculation by emphasizing the word "possibly" and "possible". The rest I think I explained enough in the previous quotes to apply to this as well. "What happened with Luffy is what happened with Luffy." What is that supposed to even mean??? That it was a fluke?? How can you even say that? You don't write the story you know, so it is hardly something you can use as an example. Not trying to be rude or anything here, but that was just too much.
@Zik:
IMO if Lucci used haki I think he would know even if it was his first time I'd go out on the limb that he is aware of the technique and something it can do.
I agree. Thing is though, Lucci already thinks too highly of himself and could very well have simply accounted the ability to his being so incredibly awesome at rokushiki that he unlocked the hidden potential himself…and thus doesn't even realize he is just imbuing his abilities with Haki or something of similar nature. Just tossing out ideas though, so please don't attack me like I am saying this is the ultimate truth.
@Zik:
Like I said before if you speculate that rokuougan uses haki you can speculate all of the rokushiki attacks use haki(save soru).
For the sake of discussion, "maybe it is". I already explained earlier that it might. Who knows. I would say no though, simply because none of them showed evidence to effecting Luffy in a special way. Granted that means little since we know barely anything about Haki, but like I said….who knows? I suggested examples of how it might be Haki, and if so…the same reasoning could be applied: they simply were using a hybrid form of Haki without knowing that there was more to Haki. Again, that is just a weak of the top of my head example of a possible explanation. Not saying it is or will become true, just trying to keep a door of discussion open for the time being rather than slamming it in peoples' faces and criticizing the idea.[/hide]
@Xai:
But what's the significance of Lucci use Haki?
Nothing major. It is just speculation that would have been answered. If you read through a story once by yourself you might understand the story completely, but if you read it with other people, discuss things, theorize, connect details together, and then read it again you might find there was a lot more information that you ever realized. This is somewhat the same in the sense that if we figure out when and where it was used we can respect the story even more for throwing subtle hints and suggestive thoughts or attacks here and there. In addition to this, it might help us get an idea of when and where Oda is hinting at something else in the future, by learning his patters and such. If all else fails though, it is just enjoyable to explore ideas and critically think about certain things.
brennen.exe I'm not gonna argue with you about what Greg said. If you took what he said as somehting else and felt I did differently, I'd rather Greg tell me what he meant rather than you telling me what you think he meant.
As for the other stuff I don't have the energy to go through and reply to the things that just sound ridiculous to me. It's a waste of my time
I'll just sum up and say I don't think rokuougan uses haki, if Lucci just used haki for the first time using rokuougan he would've said or thought something. Sentomaru's attacks imo are nothing like impact/reject dials or rokuougan. I'm sure there was other stuff but meh I don't need to go back and forth with that stuff. I have seen what you think and/or your opinion on this or your approach and I either feel you're wrong or your reaching for things to support this speculation.
@Zik:
brennen.exe I'm not gonna argue with you about what Greg said.
Fine with me, you can tl;dr all day long as long as you stop acting like you know what is and isn't going to happen in this manga. People can theorize all they want, and whether or not you think a theory is baseless or not doesn't mean a thing if the other person has some sort of evidence they would like to use. I am all for theorizing and thought provoking discussion, and not for slamming others or simply trampling around spouting what will and won't happen as if you know better. You come off that way alot, which is why I tend to form a rebuttal. As for the Greg portion, I explained that I simply did a less thorough job of explaining exactly what he followed up with explaining. So it wasn't what I thought he was saying – but what he was in fact saying. If you want to remain ignorant until and /or if ever the original poster replies, then fine by me.
I suppose the rest will have to wait until the next chapter comes out.
Fine with me, you can tl;dr all day long as long as you stop acting like you know what is and isn't going to happen in this manga.
It's unfortunate that you think that, I haven't once said this won't happen or this will happen. Just that it is unlikely or doubtful or has no support behind it. If you think I have implied that then you need better inferring skills.
So it wasn't what I thought he was saying – but what he was in fact saying.
I'm sorry but what you said Greg was saying and what he actually said are not the same. Go read it over or maybe you should ask him. We finished awhile back for the most part yet you continued it on another angle as if you were saying something new. Also if you said it less thorough than he did what makes you think I'd understand you better?
You can call me ignorant or w/e but it doesn't help anything accept for your need to feel justified in your statements/attacks…..
