Japanese language

SaiyaJedi

For serious advanced students (Carly, Saiya, I'm looking in your direction) DS KanKen is one of the best purchases I've made in a long time.

I have a lot of ordered memorization down but it doesn't always mean my stroke order, among other things, is dead on, nor that I can produce kanji when asked either on the spot or out of memorized order.

That's why this software is gold.

If you're a new learner it is worthless and I would completely avoid it but this little dream is fantastic for anyone that has at least 500 or so down pat. An EXCELLENT way to practice and rate yourself.

Actually I wish the grading was a little more specific (ie. track what you do/don't need work on) and the games were level directed as opposed to overall (ie. with the taxi game I can get about 5 answers out of 20 right before it starts spouting 'WHAT THE HELL IS THAT MESS' Kanji, but otherwise it's a GREAT exercise tool.

Lucky for me, I'll be in Japan in a week and a half, and will be able to pick this up then. :)

Greg

Don't get the 200MANNIN NO KANKEN! Get the regular version. It has games and shit.

KaizokuFan22

someone told me about using the Rosetta stone PC language CDs to Learn japanese. then I heard they are not useful. I am trying to learn to speak and or/Read japanese like in Imported mangas

SaiyaJedi

@KaizokuFan22:

someone told me about using the Rosetta stone PC language CDs to Learn japanese. then I heard they are not useful. I am trying to learn to speak and or/Read japanese like in Imported mangas

You don't want to speak Japanese like in manga. (At least, not the kind of manga you're likely to be reading if you're on this forum.) At any rate, you're better off starting from formal, textbook Japanese, and working your way down to informal, colloquial usage. You'll get to manga-level eventually, but you need to understand the grammatical and phonological rules behind the spoken permutations before you go mangling a conversation with hideously inappropriate language.

As for me, please refer back to a page or two ago in this very thread, wherein I listed the books I've used up to this point.

Bounty1Berry

I always thought that there would be very good business in a "Learn Japanese the manga way" course.

The dialogues could be put in cartoon panels, and perhaps in more dramatic settings than the usual "airport" and "hotel front desk" scenarios. Maybe kids would enjoy language more if they were more excited to see the next discussion lesson, instead of "would Ed and Sue please stop asking where the library is when they're on lesson six, and therefore can't read enough Japanese to get any use out of the library?"

One thought: I wonder if it might be better to have language classes focussed less on learning "rules" and more on reading.

English is my native language, but I couldn't tell you a lot of specific rules. I only understand them "instinctively"– the pattern isn't wrong because it's violating rule X, it's wrong because it doesn't match most of the writing I've read.

There was a moment when I almost felt that way in Spanish, but I forgot most of it, which is fortunate because now I'n spared the mental anguish that is Sabado Gigante.

CosmicDebris

There actually is a book out there that uses manga teach Japanese…more newspaper type of strips rather than what we think of here though.

KaizokuFan22

@SaiyaJedi:

You don't want to speak Japanese like in manga. (At least, not the kind of manga you're likely to be reading if you're on this forum.) At any rate, you're better off starting from formal, textbook Japanese, and working your way down to informal, colloquial usage. You'll get to manga-level eventually, but you need to understand the grammatical and phonological rules behind the spoken permutations before you go mangling a conversation with hideously inappropriate language.

As for me, please refer back to a page or two ago in this very thread, wherein I listed the books I've used up to this point.

thanks,but i may just do some classes next year in a Junior college. i just dont know how they can teach 2 years of Japanese in 6-8 weeks. that just boggles me.:blink:

the only problem is :If i take a class when I can afford it, Do I take Beginners Japanese or Intro to beginners Japanese?. So far I can speak some basics.(thank you, morning, Cheers) but its only up to 10 words or less that I know.

Greg

thanks,but i may just do some classes next year in a Junior college. i just dont know how they can teach 2 years of Japanese in 6-8 weeks. that just boggles me.

I learned 1,000 kanji in a month which Japanese students spend 6-7 years learning at school so 2 years of basic Japanese in about 2 months doesn't seem unrealistic. The first two years of academic Japanese are extremely simple in retrospect. It's simply a matter of 'breaking in'. You can do it if you're determined.

CosmicDebris

It's not so hard learning the stuff as it is retaining it… Need to practice speaking/writing more outside of class.

Bounty1Berry

@CosmicDebris:

There actually is a book out there that uses manga teach Japanese…more newspaper type of strips rather than what we think of here though.

I recall checking out Mafalda comic volumes from my local library when I was studying Spanish… but they lack the punchy drama of a good shonen series. :)

Meowch

I have recently been focusing on learning how to write kanji, and I have a question about it. As of now I write them over and over while paying great attention to little details like where the hook goes, how big a line has to be in comparion to another…and I'm wondering if I'm going too far with it. Especially since I've seen variations of the same kanji. 靴, for example. I've seen this part: 化, written in a different size compared to the rest of the character. Sometimes it's as big as the rest, and other times it's smaller.

I guess what I'm asking is, how "perfect" do written kanji have to look?

CosmicDebris

They don't need to look perfect, but they need to not accidentally look like another Kanji.

Meowch

They don't need to look perfect, but they need to not accidentally look like another Kanji.

That's good to hear. Thank you!

I have a grammar question now. I never know when to use を　or に　to mark the direct object of verbs unless I've memorized it. To say you've won a game, for example, you'd say 試合に勝った and not 試合を勝った, and with 触る, you use に to mark the person who is being touched. Is there any reason why?

I did a little research on it and found out verbs are grouped into either 他動詞 or 自動詞, which are basically transitive and intransitive. But in Japanese 自動詞　can also take direct objects, and apparently this is when they use に, since only 他動詞　can use を. Is that right? If that's the case you'd just have to memorize which verbs are 他動詞　and 自動詞, right?

I'd be really grateful to anybody who can shed some light on this. It's frustrating to memorize new verbs but not know how to use them.

CosmicDebris

Typically you use に for when the person's body is moving from one location to another, like going from your house to school for instance(uchi ni ikimasu). You use を for when your body is doing something in one place, such as drinking a soda, reading a book,(hon o yomimasu) etc.. As for winning game, I'm not sure why that is, I know に is also used to express purpose of movement, but I'm not sure how this relates to this so someone who knows the language better will have to look at that.

Kakaliaha

wo (o) marks a noun or a noun phrase being acted on by the performer of the action, and is generally an object marker, so anything marked by wo (o) is being affected and involved by the performer of the activity.

Where the concept of ni describes a unidirectional situation with a focus on the goal or directional activity rather than the process.

I would imagine since winning at a game is the goal ni is used where as if you would describe the process you would use wo (o)

CosmicDebris

Makes sense…winning a game as opposed to just playing it.

King Kobra

So, what does KAIMEI-KARASUHEBI actually means? You know, I have never ever bothered to look for the meaning after all this time of using it as my username…

Kaizoku-Syn

It would be easier if it was Kanji, but KarasuHebi = Class Snake.. (i believe) KaiMei still thinking about it

Meowch

I know about the directional focus に　has, since that is why you use it with 行く、帰る、and so forth. But what about verbs like 賛成する (to agree)、　反対する (to oppose)、　負ける (to lose)、触る (to touch)？ I just don't get why they use に. Especially 触る which I would definitely expect to use を with. They don't really have a goal, or have anything to do with direction, do they?

A new verb I learned today is 信用する, and I tried googling it to see how it is used. Most of the time it was used with は or が, but I've seen both を　AND に　with it, which confused me even more.

Kaimei-Karasuhebi, according to Jim Breen's dictionary it's something like "Darkness-Black Snake." Although, I'm not sure about the "Darkness" part.

Mr. Evil

It's sort of hard to tell exactly what "Kaimei" is intended to mean without the kanji. My dictionary says 解明 is like "explain".

Karasuhebi I assume is 烏蛇, crow snake, or "karasu" can also mean "to wither" or something like that.

Kakaliaha

Things like to agree, to oppose and to touch are once again showing a definate direction. Its kinda hard to explain but these have to do with direction as well, since the agreement is coming from somewhere ni shows where the agreement is coming from same with touch and oppose. These show definate direction, I will find my book that I learned this from and post it in a bit maybe it will make a bit more sense.

Lose is again the whole idea of the is the result so it is marked by ni rather than the means marked by wo (o).

Edit for me copying from a book "Fundamentals of Japanese Grammer Comprehensive Acquisition" by Yuki Johnson

Since にillustrates a unidirectional concept, the source of an action or event can also be marked by に. It is similar to the use of “from” and “by” in the passive construction. に in the former function tends to occur with a verb that offers a passive atmosphere and/or is beneficial to the receiver, such as 習う “to learn,” 借りる “to borrow,” and もらう “to receive.”

Such as

私は川崎さんに日本語を習います。
I will learn Japanese from Ms. Kawasaki.

強盗は老人にお金を盗んだ。
A robber stole money from an old man.

Meowch

Things like to agree, to oppose and to touch are once again showing a definate direction. Its kinda hard to explain but these have to do with direction as well, since the agreement is coming from somewhere ni shows where the agreement is coming from same with touch and oppose. These show definate direction, I will find my book that I learned this from and post it in a bit maybe it will make a bit more sense.

I think I understand. This looks like a vague method to figure out whether a verb uses に　or を, but since I have nothing else to fall back on, I'm going to use it and see where it takes me. Thanks for your help!

So if I'm thinking about this correctly with 信用する, trust has a direction since it comes from someone…so my guess is that it uses に. Is there anyone that can confirm that?

Kakaliaha

Yes 信用する can be used with ni because you could substitute the word "by" or "from"

友達は私に信用します。
Speaking of my friend he is trusted by me.

by being the key word.

Meowch

Yes 信用する can be used with ni because you could substitute the word "by" or "from"

友達は私に信用します。
Speaking of my friend he is trusted by me.

by being the key word.

I can be totally wrong but isn't that sentence incorrect? It looks to me like a passive sentence, so shouldn't it be: 友達は私に信用されます。 ?

I asked my teacher and she said to use を　with 信用する (in an active sentence, like あなたを信用しない）. I guess I'll just have to keep asking every time I learn a new verb.

davis

I have some old imported manga, and i know a bit of japanese, but im lacking a ton of vocabulary, so when i try to read it, i try to keep a japanese dictionary handy, real or online.

The problems are

A: It's hard to tell words apart since there is no spacing, so i end up having to look up different combinations of letters in a word bubble

or

B: The words arent even in the dictionary at all.

any advice?

CosmicDebris

Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything you can do but increase your vocabulary. After a while you start to just know where the words begin and end. If the word isn't in the dictionary, either you're trying to put characters together to make a word when they aren't, or else you might be looking at a modified version of the word (dictionary will only have the "dictionary form")

Malintex_Terek

Will someone recommend a dictionary that puts out words in high-lightable text? I've been using Jeffrey's dictionary since 2003, and while a good resource the only failing is putting up characters as images rather than text.

Cinder

His dictionary is very much customizable. I suggest looking around on the main dictionary page on any server for the option to do so.

dirt monkey AL

I suggest the program, JWPce, for you. Let's you type out in hiragana, katakana, and kanji. Very helpful, and it has a dictionary in it.

davis

Yeah, does anyone have a good dictionary to reccomend, so far ive been using freedict, and Webster's Compact Japanese Dictionary.

dirt monkey AL

I use Kodansha's Furigana dictionary - if you want a book form. It's pretty pricey though. I got it for sixty bucks, and while I think I was ripped off a bit, it's been nothing but useful since I've had it.

If you want a computer dictionary, there's a program called JquickTrans that I also use. And JWPce has a dictionary built into it.

With all of them together, it takes a really obscure kanji to baffle me.

And just for the record, don't trust dictionaries with Romaji - the only reason I got the Kodansha dictionary is because I hate Romaji so much.

Ok, ummm, this might seem a bit silly, but my friend and I have been debating about tangerines being called oranges. So my friend is taking Japanese, and its called a "mikan" which translates to "orange" right? or is tangerine just not in the Japanese language and tangerines are basically the same things as oranges.
ha ha…like I said its kinda silly to be debating about this...but I kinda want to end this debate once and for all. i have a pit feeling that my friend is right about the whole thing, but I need a bit more clarification than just "no they're satsuma oranges!"

SaiyaJedi

@shadedcircles:

Ok, ummm, this might seem a bit silly, but my friend and I have been debating about tangerines being called oranges. So my friend is taking Japanese, and its called a "mikan" which translates to "orange" right? or is tangerine just not in the Japanese language and tangerines are basically the same things as oranges.
ha ha…like I said its kinda silly to be debating about this...but I kinda want to end this debate once and for all. i have a pit feeling that my friend is right about the whole thing, but I need a bit more clarification than just "no they're satsuma oranges!"

A mikan is a specific variety of citrus (Citrus unshiu), closely related to the mandarin orange (Citrus reticulata) and its subvarieties, the clementine and the tangerine. It is not a true "orange" (Citrus sinensis), though citrus are quite close genetically and all these fruit appear to have originated in East Asia. It is relatively small, "squashed in" on the top and bottom, with soft, easy-to-peel skin and a comparatively sweet taste. In America, there's no consistent term for them, and I've seen them labeled as "mandarin oranges" or as "tangerines". They're often called "satsumas" in the UK, though.

The word "mikan" can be used more generally in Japanese to refer to any orange-colored citrus (much the same as "orange" in English), but if you really want to get your friend on scientific precision, you could point out that true oranges are properly called "orenji" in Japan.

davis

@dirt:

I use Kodansha's Furigana dictionary - if you want a book form. It's pretty pricey though. I got it for sixty bucks, and while I think I was ripped off a bit, it's been nothing but useful since I've had it.

If you want a computer dictionary, there's a program called JquickTrans that I also use. And JWPce has a dictionary built into it.

With all of them together, it takes a really obscure kanji to baffle me.

And just for the record, don't trust dictionaries with Romaji - the only reason I got the Kodansha dictionary is because I hate Romaji so much.

I downloaded jquick trans and i still have alot of trouble.

I cant seem to distinguish many words.

also, i am halfway through a japanese textbook "yookosoo introduction to conversaitional japanese"

So what should i do?
Stop trying to read the manga, and read the second half of the textbook.

Keep trying to slowly slowly SLOWLY build a vocab.

Both?

Or something elese?

AWB

What is the Japanese word for surgeon?

CosmicDebris

Gekai.

16 surgeons

KaizokuFan22

is using a Random House Japanese/English- English/japanese dictonary ok to use in studying the language?

SaiyaJedi

@KaizokuFan22:

is using a Random House Japanese/English- English/japanese dictonary ok to use in studying the language?

It's not a bad starting point; hell, it's what I used to begin with. Just realize that such a format has its limitations, and you're going to quickly want to move on to something else. The main issue, other than the limited number of words within, is that it's no good other than as a vocabulary building device. You'll need another source if you want to work on grammar and other things that will actually help you speak the language.

Lobolover

ive been meaning to ask-is there such a word you could write down as "odial"?

SaiyaJedi

@Lobolover:

ive been meaning to ask-is there such a word you could write down as "odial"?

Ending a syllable with a consonant other than "n" is a no-no in Japanese. Or rather, it simply isn't phonologically possible, which is why you get such strange English pronunciation from Japanese speakers at times.

Perhaps you could give a little more context as to what you're referring to?

Lobolover

if you go and watch the warship island arc,preferably episode 59 for this,you hear that Nelson keeps ending his sentence with the word "odial"-sounding like "Ima de odial","Hayou guste odial".

heres the video

tonitonichopper

Do you really need to get Hiragana and Katakana down first before learning Kanji?

SaiyaJedi

@Lobolover:

if you go and watch the warship island arc,preferably episode 59 for this,you hear that Nelson keeps ending his sentence with the word "odial"-sounding like "Ima de odial","Hayou guste odial".

heres the video

Sounds like he's saying something along the lines of "de o-jaru" in place of the usual copula (i.e. da/desu).

"Jaru" is an old form of "da" created by a simple contraction of "de aru", but the part that goes in front of it when Nelson uses it leads me to believe that this is being used as yet another One Piece Speech Quirk (TM).

@tonitonichopper:

Do you really need to get Hiragana and Katakana down first before learning Kanji?

Unless you learned Chinese first, I would say absolutely yes. I don't see why you wouldn't want to, frankly…

Lobolover

Well,thanks but,uhm,what exactly doues "da" mean?I only know a few japaneese words.

dirt monkey AL

It's a Japanese copula.

Basically, the verb that means "to be."

KaizokuFan22

what do i need to learn to read imported manga?

Lobolover

oh,thanks .

SaiyaJedi

@KaizokuFan22:

what do i need to learn to read imported manga?

Depends on the reading level of the manga in question. For shonen manga, you at least need to be able to read kana and Chinese numerals, since the readings of the kanji are provided. But in order to understand what you're reading, it helps to at least have a moderate-level grasp of several linguistic registers (generally, both casual speech and more formal expository language), as well as the ability to recognize speech quirks and dialectal differences for what they are (so they don't interfere with comprehension).

KaizokuFan22

@SaiyaJedi:

Depends on the reading level of the manga in question. For shonen manga, you at least need to be able to read kana and Chinese numerals, since the readings of the kanji are provided. But in order to understand what you're reading, it helps to at least have a moderate-level grasp of several linguistic registers (generally, both casual speech and more formal expository language), as well as the ability to recognize speech quirks and dialectal differences for what they are (so they don't interfere with comprehension).

thanks

Soare there Any sites for to learn to read Kana?

SaiyaJedi

@KaizokuFan22:

thanks

Soare there Any sites for to learn to read Kana?

You could just do a simple search on Google and come up with a bunch of hits, but since I'm feeling generous, I found this site. Looks like it should be helpful.

There are also the Wikipedia articles, but I'm guessing the more linguistics-heavy stuff isn't really a concern for you.