Chapter 468 "Pirate Chopper vs. Mystery Man Hogback" Discussion
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Brook is dead 50 years, fact
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think MDM got a point in that we dont know when Brook died. just how many years ago he/they left Laboon… which is 50 years.
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That was a strange chapter. On first pages Robin and Chopper are defeated, and we have no idea how. Looks like a cheap trick to me, because I always assumed that Robin could take out any swordsman simply by taking his sword. Guess I was wrong.
The Chopper vs Hogback confrontation was satisfyingly emotional and well written/drawn. However I'm slightly disappointed that Hogback is pure evil because I always imagined that he was a good doctor once.
Cindry licking the floor is among the scenes in OP I wish I never saw. It's right next to the scene when Absalom tried to rape Nami in the shower.
The cover story defies all laws of common sense A winged army of tiny robots on the moon which look exactly like those created by doctor Moonwatcher on Earth? I feel for Ener.
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Whatever.
The point is it rules out him being cindry's boyfriend, which was a pretty stupid idea in the first place.
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That was a strange chapter. On first pages Robin and Chopper are defeated, and we have no idea how. Looks like a cheap trick to me, because I always assumed that Robin could take out any swordsman simply by taking his sword. Guess I was wrong.
I'm blameing this one on rigor mortis
Whatever.
The point is it rules out him being cindry's boyfriend, which was a pretty stupid idea in the first place.
oh sorry thought you were commenting on my answer to FFA where i said 50 years.
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As seen in the chapter, Jigoroh is strong enough to break free from Robin's grasp, something we've never seen anybody do. She didn't even lose her grip on Yama's fat ass, but suddenly Jigoroh comes along and it's "NO TRIENTE FLEUR FOR YOU"
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forced plothole…
or she is tired from running all over TB grappeling and purifying tons of zombies. those high heels she got cant be helping either... Has she ever moved around as much in such a high pace as she has done during TB? She does not exactly seem to be the most athletic person on the crew, allways sitting in a chair somewhere reading something and uses her DF ability to do all the small tasks.
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Whatever.
The point is it rules out him being cindry's boyfriend, which was a pretty stupid idea in the first place.
I never said he was, I said it would be incredibly Ironic.
But anyway, Oda doesn't exactly throw around last names without good reason, so I have a feeling we'll see Cindry's fiance sometime… at least in a flashback or something.
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@IT'S:
As seen in the chapter, Jigoroh is strong enough to break free from Robin's grasp, something we've never seen anybody do. She didn't even lose her grip on Yama's fat ass, but suddenly Jigoroh comes along and it's "NO TRIENTE FLEUR FOR YOU"
I've found that panel very strange. I mean, first Robin is holding back Jigoroh with her hands, then he does something. It looked like he threw a 36-pound hou attack right at Robin, but then in the next panel Dogpen charges at Jigoroh and they right. I don't quite get what happened there.
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its because he almost hit Dogpen in the 108-pound hou attack before Robin grabbed him… as you know whenever one of Sanji or Zoro almoast hit each other they allways start argueing/fighting. its the same with dogpen and Jigorouh, only it took Dogpen a little while to get in Jigorouhs face about it.
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@IT'S:
As seen in the chapter, Jigoroh is strong enough to break free from Robin's grasp, something we've never seen anybody do. She didn't even lose her grip on Yama's fat ass, but suddenly Jigoroh comes along and it's "NO TRIENTE FLEUR FOR YOU"
Jigorou's Zombie nature may also play a role in this. Robin's techniques tend to rely on pressure points and stress positions. These would not work well on someone who does not feel pain, can not be strangled, and can attack her with only one arm free.
Also, from what chopper said about Dogpen attacking robin, it would seem that while Robin was focusing on Jigorou, dogpeng struck her while her guard was down. This would force her to withdraw her arms and give jiggy the chance to subdue her with a blade at her neck. Because he was focusing on Hogback and never got the opportunity to rumble, chopper wouldn't have been much help.
I wouldn't mind if they had devoted a page to this action, but it wasn't completely necessary. In the end, Robin took out (for now) both dogpeng and jigorou single handedly by instigating their brawl and tricking hogback. That's impressive enough from my point of view.
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its because he almost hit Dogpen in the 108-pound hou attack before Robin grabbed him… as you know whenever one of Sanji or Zoro almoast hit each other they allways start argueing/fighting. its the same with dogpen and Jigorouh, only it took Dogpen a little while to get in Jigorouhs face about it.
Hm? Isn't there a translation out yet?
The point is Hogback gave them an order to get rid of 'anyone that gets in their way' and since the 108 Podo Hou got in the way of Inupen, that instantly made Jigoroh 'in his way'.
It's putting Chopper's 'moral' of the chapter in practice. They aren't free and therefore aren't human.
How is no one flipping out about the wings on the damn robots? The possibilities I see about their being linked to the entire Skypiean/Shandia race has me boiling over with excitement.
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I missed the wings on the robots actually.
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Yea, I also didn't catch those.
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Insanity right? I wanna go back to that wrinkly old professor and see if he had anything remotely resembling them. Preeeetty sure he didn't but either way this just got interesting.
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What I'm wondering is if Oda is purposely making death's only happen in flashbacks.
Like with Ace and Blackbeard(yes I'm assuming) and now with Ryuuma. Two fights that really could have been told as they were happening, but Oda decides to tell them as flashbacks.
I dunno, just something I noticed. I mean it could just be switching it up to add suspense to the end of that one chapter(since Zoro can't lose) but I mean I just find it really coincidental that one of the only fights that results in a death, is the one Oda finally decides to use that technique to add suspense.
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Why are flashbacks so important? There's something about them in OP that separates them from the normal story. They're far more poignant and a good chunk of that reason is because usually there's a character or two we know won't be coming back.
I think that's why Oda almost exclusively uses death in flashbacks, that's what makes them so important.
I also think another reason (say Pell for example) is Oda doesn't want to dissappoint fans o the character. We know he likes to use ALL of his characters throughout the story at different points in different ways and he doesn't want to leave anyone (meaning his fans) out. Which is nice. I respect his opinion on that. Yeah, sometimes it isn't the most realistic thing, but, for the people that want to see more of that character it means a lot.
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Pell I can understand, but Pagaya?
and to add insult to injury, he just came out of no where, unscathed, and basically said "Hey guys, I'm not dead".
but yea, I get what you are saying.
Although I'd choke laughing if Pagaya WAS dead and the one that came back was one of those moon robots.
THAT'S why they have the wings Greg!
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OF COURSE! Why couldn't I see it! ^_^
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Awesome chapter.
My favorite parts were when Robin tricked Hogback into making Dogpen and Jigorou jump off the tower and when Chopper was fighting Cindry.
Anyway, can't wait for the next chapter. -
**Pell I can understand, but Pagaya?
and to add insult to injury, he just came out of no where, unscathed, and basically said "Hey guys, I'm not dead".**
but yea, I get what you are saying.
Although I'd choke laughing if Pagaya WAS dead and the one that came back was one of those moon robots.
THAT'S why they have the wings Greg!
I always found that scene really funny. Pagaya's death too vague to count out his chances of survival.
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What I'm wondering is if Oda is purposely making death's only happen in flashbacks.
Like with Ace and Blackbeard(yes I'm assuming) and now with Ryuuma. Two fights that really could have been told as they were happening, but Oda decides to tell them as flashbacks.
I dunno, just something I noticed. I mean it could just be switching it up to add suspense to the end of that one chapter(since Zoro can't lose) but I mean I just find it really coincidental that one of the only fights that results in a death, is the one Oda finally decides to use that technique to add suspense.
If things weren't that way, people won't have any excuse to insult OP fans.
It's Oda's job.Though, I always preferred Pagaya's case much over Pell's. Overall I'm pretty cool with Pagaya actually, but if I could I'd definitely nag Oda until he tells me why [and how] he brought himself to such a risky thing most of the fanbase _ended up hating.
But darn, when I went over TB from the start in the tankos I found twice as much Pandamans from when we read it weekly. Well, to be expected when there are 900 ganging zombies AND a fog._
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This post is deleted!
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You know what I liked? How he handled the General Zombies.
I got to thinking.
Hey….wait a minute....Zoro burned up Ryuma's body right? W-T-F mate? Franky can fucking emit fire at will. Sure if he was out of Cola it'd make sense, but that's not the case. So why in the hell did he get fucked over by the General Zombies?
Armor.
Oh thank you Oda.
Sometimes we just have to swallow stuff (as if Robin couldn't get them salted with ease) but I like it when he thinks things out well.
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Hogback better not be no punk. Running away like that, what type of doctor is he? Is he a "Genius Surgeon" or not dammit….He better take Chopper on and operate!
I predict Moria and Luffy will be shown next chapter (near the end0.
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@Rai:
I don't think he has any shadow to work with.
Sure, there's Nami, but I seriously doubt it.And I'm hoping for the opposite – I think it would be a blast to see Nami's shadow animating that mario -- it could start breaking down walls looking for the hidden treasure, and then could attempt to distract everyone with an (unsuccessful) Happiness Punch, and then could save the day by successfully navigating Thriller Bark back into the fogbank after it drifts perilously close to the end of the Florian Triangle ...
@_Meh_:
but unless she wallops him with plates herself her battle is already over: she has won.
Yes, just like Ryuma – in defeat she finally (re)gains her freedom.
Count me in as one who wants to see her purified by her own tears. I don't care if it's "a plot-hole" or "scientifically unproven" or even just plain "stupid" -- I'm looking at it from the symbolic aspect (that crying leads a lost soul back to itself and back to its own humanity) and thinking that that's really neat.
Where the hell is that chapter thread going?
Word!
I'm just relieved that it eventually got back on track.
And it's not like we don't already have threads for those topics elsewhere.Anyways, back on topic:
Cindry licking the floor is among the scenes in OP I wish I never saw.
Yeah, especially considering how everyone in that room has walked through mud, graveyards, over zombie bodies and so on.
:sick:Hm? Isn't there a translation out yet?
The point is Hogback gave them an order to get rid of 'anyone that gets in their way' and since the 108 Podo Hou got in the way of Inupen, that instantly made Jigoroh 'in his way'. It's putting Chopper's 'moral' of the chapter in practice. They aren't free and therefore aren't human.Thanks for clarifying Greg – the scanlation I read didn't make that point as clearly as you did.
I also liked how Robin's "Jump from the window" trick underlined that same moral : that she and Chopper have free wills (and so they chose not to obey Hogback's commands) while the other two didn't, and ended up jumping to their (possible) doom because they had to follow Hogback's command.
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So noone else is excited about a "Thriller" amv with Thriller Bark clips?XD
I wasn't too fond of the Cindry licking the floor scene either, especially since it was drawn in a submission fanservice kind of way. I did find it hot,but at the same time I felt it was kind of offensive…
Didn't like the idea of Robin getting captured so easily. I would say she'll explain it was part of her plan next chapter but with the quick pace of the arc, I doubt it. I have no idea whether we see a fight or more HogbackXCindryXChopper interaction next chapter, so it'll be interesting. Not to mention, too, kinda wondered why Cindry's fiance wasn't shown?
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That licking the floor scene was weak.
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Thanks for clarifying Greg – the scanlation I read didn't make that point as clearly as you did.
Ah, I read some and now I can see where some of the confusion came in.
Yeah the first time I read it I thought they were just arguing over orders, which I thought was a bit too silly considering we haven't seen such inner conflicts to this point, but then after I reread it, and saw when Inupen attacks he uses Hogback's exact words when he first attacks, it made sense.
Um….wasn't to crazy about the jump off the tower 'trick' though. In theory yes I liked the idea, just not how it was executed because man, Hogback must be a fuckin' retard.
I half expected the scene to close out with: "Th-Th-Th-Th-Th-THAT'S AAAAAALL FOLKS!"
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Hey Greg did you guess right concerning how the fight went down between Zoro and Ryumma?
I think it was you who said the Zoro and Ryumma fight was already decided whne Zoro flew out of the building IIRC?
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Yeah, I kinda kicked that plot twist's ass which made me happy. Every once a few years I can actually predict something so that means everything that comes out of my mouth until they finish Fishman Island will be pure garbage.
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Yeah, I kinda kicked that plot twist's ass which made me happy. Every once a few years I can actually predict something so that means everything that comes out of my mouth until they finish Fishman Island will be pure garbage.
LOL I knew it.
So where is the rocket scientist who was arguing with you to the death about it (you proved him wrong)?
I guess you have a feel for plots, well again you are the
DRAGONBALL GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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And I'm hoping for the opposite – I think it would be a blast to see Nami's shadow animating that mario
Personally, if this was the case I'd love the Mario to get into a yelling match with Odz considering how he's running amok. But anyway, the cover chapter finally got interesting, man I hope this all somehow connects back to the main plot.
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You know what I liked? How he handled the General Zombies.
I got to thinking.
Hey….wait a minute....Zoro burned up Ryuma's body right? W-T-F mate? Franky can fucking emit fire at will. Sure if he was out of Cola it'd make sense, but that's not the case. So why in the hell did he get fucked over by the General Zombies?
Armor.
Oh thank you Oda.
Sometimes we just have to swallow stuff (as if Robin couldn't get them salted with ease) but I like it when he thinks things out well.
OH SHI-
I so love this crap.And I'm hoping for the opposite – I think it would be a blast to see Nami's shadow animating that mario -- it could start breaking down walls looking for the hidden treasure, and then could attempt to distract everyone with an (unsuccessful) Happiness Punch, and then could save the day by successfully navigating Thriller Bark back into the fogbank after it drifts perilously close to the end of the Florian Triangle ...
Wow dinty, you read the whole thread? That's some patience.
But I wonder really, because not only we are nearing the end of all zombies soon so we won't see much of any new ones, but also the SHs are all over TB right now wrecking shit up. So how much time can she [he] hold on in the story?
And I'm having trouble to find any means of the zombie changing the story. As far as I go it could happen with a messed up King Kong thing with Odz and #741.@Ao:
Cindry licking the floor scene either, especially since it was drawn in a submission fanservice kind of way.
There's dirt on floors.
Just in case you didn't know. -
I don't think many nerds were getting off at cindry licking dirty floors, so I don't really think it was fanservice.
I also don't think it was THAT bad, or as repulsive as everyone else is claiming it to be. Yea, it was a shitty thing to make her do, but not the most disgusting, vile, foul thing in manga.
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Enel should use the winged spaceys to come back and try to conquer the blue sea, this cover story has gone boring for too long to not have any impact in the plot.
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As long as Chopper ends up hoofing the crap out of Hogback for what he's been doing, this whole confrontation will be worth it.
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I don't think many nerds were getting off at cindry licking dirty floors, so I don't really think it was fanservice.
I also don't think it was THAT bad, or as repulsive as everyone else is claiming it to be. Yea, it was a shitty thing to make her do, but not the most disgusting, vile, foul thing in manga.
Not the act itself that was disgusting, but rather the whole idea in theory. He made her lick the floor just like that in front of Chopper, like he's telling him "Hehe, what are you scared at? It was only the start. You don't wanna know what I did to her, trust me."
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So where is the rocket scientist who was arguing with you to the death about it (you proved him wrong)?
Now, now. It was never about whether I was right or he was wrong (at least I didn't want that to be it) just that he could be open to other ideas without bluntly saying, "That won't happen."
As for Cindry licking the floor, I don't think it was intended to be anything erotic as much as it was to make her appear pitiful under the power of someone as sadistic as Hogback.
This chapter in revealing his past as a 'akibakei' style otaku fan of her's has really made a good number of things clear about him and it didn't excite me in the least, rather it made me angry at Hogback for being such a bastard.
I just wanna know…..
WHOSE FRICKING SHADOW DOES SHE HAVE??
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I don't think many nerds were getting off at cindry licking dirty floors, so I don't really think it was fanservice.
THEN YOU DON'T KNOW NERDS!
She bends over sexily, the camera bans around to show her from behind then a close up "money shot" of her face, featuring contently closed eyes and outstretched tongue lapping stroking the floor? Uh yeah, it was fanservice. I've already seen someone here with the floor licking scenes as their avatar. It's totally different from the curb stomping Spandam gave Robin to ram it into the viewers head that he was a Grade S asshole. This was meant to show HogBack as a prick,but at the same time sneak in even more fanservice via the Sally-clone coquetishly doing submissive things like bending over and stroking things with her tongue. Hogback could have easily made her wail on herself a few times or endure some physical abuse from him and say "Ariagtou! HogBack-sama!" as she bled or something,but fanboys couldn't get their rocks off to something like that..well MOST couldn't. For some, it'd be just what the doctor ordered.I also don't think it was THAT bad, or as repulsive as everyone else is claiming it to be. Yea, it was a shitty thing to make her do, but not the most disgusting, vile, foul thing in manga.
It's the most degrading thing a female has been made to do so far in this series. It's not so much, OMFG Hogback how could you, as "comeon Oda-sensei do we really need to see a chick be made to do this stuff?" Hogback could have easily told Chopper he makes Cindry lick his room clean while cackling or whatever, instead he chose to draw it which defintely gives the feeling of fanservice. Like I said, personally my reactions was shock that Oda-sensei actually drew her doing that, then oh that's pretty hawt, then once again,but I can't believe he drew her do that. Because I think many ppl disguisted at it, realize that the artist himself is making her do it by drawing it into the manga, not the fictional character he writes as the arc's villian. Like when a manga character gets raped or something, it's bad for that character in the storybut for the reader it's meant to be enjoyed as kinky rape-fanservice, which is bordeline what we saw with Nami earlier in the arc. Now we've moved onto goth-frankenstein girl-submission stuff?
Also, I think it annoys the ppl who enjoyed the level of innocence present in OP as far, as sex and all that. Previous to Water 7 and the Calipha fight, pretty much all the fanservice was played up for human, not masterbation fodder.
Trust me, as subtle as it may seem to some ppl, I've read enough Ken Akamatsu manga to know fanservice when I see it!
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I wonder if Hogback is going to use his typical belly dance for combat?
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@Rai:
And I'm having trouble to find any means of the zombie changing the story. As far as I go it could happen with a messed up King Kong thing with Odz and #741.
Didnt Odz do the King Kong reference all by himself (well peronas ghost was up there with him but not as a captive) when he first broke out of Morias freezer? or am i the only one thinking that?
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Yeah, this chapter only showed that Cyndri's was nothing but Hogback's otaku fetish doll. I actually hoped he would had a reason like Cyndri inspiring him to help people or some dreamy crap like that, but this was pretty messed up, and I truly hope Chopper shows him the true monsters that medicine can create….
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In theory yes I liked the idea, just not how it was executed
Agreed. It wasn't very convincing (and good call on it being like something Wile E Coyote or Elmer Fudd would fall for – literally!) but it worked in the sense that it underlined the theme of the chapter, and of the manga -- that freedom is life, and, in this chapter at least, sometimes more precious than life (or half-life, seeing as these zombies aren't really "living" anymore).
@raj:
Personally, if this was the case I'd love the Mario to get into a yelling match with Odz considering how he's running amok.
That would be fun. Or how about if mario smacks Odz with his/her "Fist of Love" (just as Nami does to Luffy).
@Rai:
Wow dinty, you read the whole thread? That's some patience.
Yeah, call me crazy, but I like to read what everyone else has to say before making my own comments. I like to mull other people's opinions and see if they have any effect on mine (which they often do). Usually I get an earlier start on the thread, so that it's not as much of a slog, but last week was particularly busy for me, so it's only tonight that I found time to read the chapter and commentary.
And I'm having trouble to find any means of the zombie changing the story. As far as I go it could happen with a messed up King Kong thing with Odz and #741.
well, as I half-seriously mentioned before, a Nami-zombie could navigate the ship to safety before it strays into sunlight, but other than that, probably just for fun and distraction.
WHOSE FRICKING SHADOW DOES SHE HAVE??
Knowing Oda, we won't find out until three arcs from now, when Whitebeard or Rockstar or Doc Q casually mentions that his little old granny had a peculiar hatred of plates, and that she died under mysterious circumstances after some shadowy guy with a big pair of scissors came to visit her…
I wonder if Hogback is going to use his typical belly dance for combat?
that's right! the bellydance! If Cindry is made to lick the floor, then Hogback should be made to do his belly dance! Equal opportunity embarrassment and degradation!
hehehhe -
Knowing Oda, we won't find out until three arcs from now, when Whitebeard or Rockstar or Doc Q casually mentions that his little old granny had a peculiar hatred of plates, and that she died under mysterious circumstances after some shadowy guy with a big pair of scissors came to visit her…
That statement wouldn't work. The shadow's owner has to be alive for the zombie it resurrects to maintain itself, hence why Ryuuma wouldn't kill Brook the first time they met.
I'm also under the belief that the owner of Cindry's shadow is still on the ship.
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Sanctum beat me to it.
Im more curious about what happened to Lola then whos shadow cindry has atm… eill she be purified face to face or will she just be forgotten somewhere?
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That statement wouldn't work. The shadow's owner has to be alive for the zombie it resurrects to maintain itself, hence why Ryuuma wouldn't kill Brook the first time they met.
I'm also under the belief that the owner of Cindry's shadow is still on the ship.
Ah– you're right -- I'd forgotten that the zombie body has to be (un)dead, but the shadow donor has to be alive. In that case, I think you're probably right.
Maybe the plate-hater is the little old man in the forest?Stranger things have happened...
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Ah– you're right -- I'd forgotten that the zombie body has to be (un)dead, but the shadow donor has to be alive. In that case, I think you're probably right.
Maybe the plate-hater is the little old man in the forest?Stranger things have happened...
I could actually see that happening, it'd be a nice way to make the arc a bit more, well, whatever word that can be utilized to make the word continuity into a adjective. XD I'm braindead tonight.
I, myself, am hoping that Robin tags out with Ussop, to give us another Ussop/Chopper tag fight. Robin could neutralize Odz pretty easily if she wanted, I just want to see her do it.
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Nah, I don't think robin can sprout enough hands to crush odz's balls. I'd rather see Franky and Usopp tag team though. I can imagine Franky sticking his foot or something on to Usopp's weapon.
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I was referring to how she attempted to purify Jigoroh, only thing is, he noticed.
Odz wouldn't. He wouldn't feel a thing. Just, whoop, there. Purified.EDIT: And what would Franky's foot have anything to do with a dial powered weapon? The only thing special about Franky's lower body is his "centaur" form.
Crap, now I want to see him use it again. On that Centaur General Zombie guy, if he survived Odz's buttsmash.