How long will the Carrot stowed away on the ship debate go on, is this a second Perona? We’ll it’s either sink or swim for Yamato here, either he’s joining in the next few chapters or not, fingers crossed
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)
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@pokebat7 You are right on that point. Two years ago when I made that post, I did anticipate more focus given to Carrot but she has been under-served during the Wano Arc. Some guidance for Carrot is definitely required to make her more comfortable with taking the Mink toward a new future. Also Carrot needs to move on from being a reactionary participant to being an active player within the story.
Also Yamato is definitely joining the crew. The story has been set-up to explore his lineage and role.
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I'd honestly be surprised if Yamato doesn't join the crew.
As for Carrot, I'm not sure - the scene with her in 1056 seemed like it was meant to wrap up her storyline until the Minks and everyone else returned for the final war, but if that's what it was meant to do, it seemed like a really awkward/rushed way to do it, with Carrot being forced into a role that she has no desire to fill and no confidence in her ability to do the job in question without having any say in the matter, and her only qualifications being "well, you left Zou for a week, so I guess that's good enough."
I don't know if it was hastily included as a way to acknowledge Carrot's popularity, but if that's the case, then you would think that she would have been convinced by the end of it, and she still looked unsure. (and the "your heart carries Pedro's will" claim seems weird in this context, since Pedro's will had nothing to do with leading Zou)
Either way, hopefully this will be made clear in the next few chapters. I'm guessing that Kinemon and Momo will get their big dramatic goodbyes next chapter, and the Straw Hats will be out at sea in 1058 - if either of them are joining, whether they got on at the end of Wano or have stowed away, it seems like it would be revealed there, though maybe we'll get reactions and news from around the world before we go back to following the Straw Hats out at sea.
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I really don't understand the comparisons between Carrot and Perona. The former sailed with the crew as a companion / ally for multiple story arcs. The latter was a single arc sub-antagonist. I think this comparison is a way of minimizing the opinions of people who think Carrot is going to join by comparing to the 'silly' idea that Perona would become a Straw Hat.
Not only is this a false equivalence, it's very strange to assume the people who thought Perona would join are now backing Carrot.
As for 'how long', it depends on the crew's departure process, but I'd imagine it will be made clear one way or the other in the next couple chapters.
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@StrawHatJedi
It's a joke at how Perona fans thought she hid on the sunny after her confrontation with Kuma and how people think carrot will hide on the sunny. -
Ah, I didn't remember that detail, but I also didn't really engage in new crewmate debates much during Thriller Bark because Brook was so obviously next in line.
In this case, I think there's at least a precedent in that Carrot has already stowed away on the Thousand Sunny.
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Yeah, I only know of it cause I was reading the older discussions
Also Inurashi and Nekomamushi join Roger and Whitebeard's crews after stowing away on their ships. Narrative wise having Carrot run away from becoming Duchess makes sense, she seems a bit iffy on the idea. After Carrot hid on the Sunny, Wanda mentioned how she was mad for her sneaking off she just wanted to be told, so maybe if Carrot tells her she wants to join the strawhats she'll take the role as temp Duchess?
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Duchess Carrot certainly feels like one of those decisions Oda takes on the fly and throws away as a 'no one could've guessed it', surprise.
Bassically how he has been writting most of Wano.
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I was wrong it was in the return to Sabaody arc
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@Syphin said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
Did readers really not expect Carrot's promotion to a leadership position? I thought that was the clear direction of her story arc. I've already mentioned this possibility in 2020 - my post in July 2020 and in November 2020:
@Syphin said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima):
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There needs to be a character that will come along that will change the status quo and move the nation (Zou) into the new dawn. Aside from Pedro and Carrot, none of the other Mink's have been developed to fill such a role (certainly not Inuarashi or Nekomamushi who could have saved Wano Kuni earlier if they reached out to the Roger Pirate remnants and the Whitebeard Pirates twenty years ago when they retreated back to Zou). Nekomamushi may be waiting for the dawn but he has not been developed into a character that will work alongside the Straw Hat Pirates to see it arise. With Pedro having fallen in Whole Cake Island, Carrot now embodies that character stationed to open Zou up. Pedro's goal was to lay the foundation for the "dawning of the world" for the people he believes can bring it about. Pedro saved the Straw Hat Pirates but he did not accomplish his goal. Rather it appears, Pedro's will has been inherited by Carrot. She will assist in laying the foundation for the Straw Hat Pirates and the Kozuki clan (Momonosuke and Hiyori) to help guide the world to the "dawn".Carrot becoming the representative/leader of the Mink isn't surprising to me rather it was the expected outcome.
Yep, Carrot’s past actions doesn’t mean she’s too stupid or incapable of growing into a competent Mink leader.
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@pokebat7 said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
Yeah, I only know of it cause I was reading the older discussions
Also Inurashi and Nekomamushi join Roger and Whitebeard's crews after stowing away on their ships. Narrative wise having Carrot run away from becoming Duchess makes sense, she seems a bit iffy on the idea. After Carrot hid on the Sunny, Wanda mentioned how she was mad for her sneaking off she just wanted to be told, so maybe if Carrot tells her she wants to join the strawhats she'll take the role as temp Duchess?
There's a two day timeskip, so who knows what happened in that time when it comes to the Minks. Knowing the Minks and how accepting they can be for most things, if Carrot took her time to state her doubts to Wanda, yeah, I don't think Wanda would oppose her desires to join with the Straw Hats.
In fact, given that the narrative has now put Carrot on the path to become Duchess of Zou, yet she doesn't feel ready for it....yet, traveling with the Straw Hats will undoubtedly give her the needed experiences to grow further and ultimately come to understand the meaning of Pedro's Will.
With those two things in mind, then yes, on that point, she will be fit to go back to Zou and rule the country as Duchess, or whenever she thinks and is convinced she's ready to take on that role.
Right now, however, she's not ready and she herself states this as such, and her words shouldn't be ignored.
On that said, if she is going to join, it will be through a stowaway stunt done by Carrot, and nothing else. She did it once, she can do it again.
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At present I'm still struggling to view Carrot as a main character after the treatment, focus and development she has received throughout her story. It has been over 250 chapters since her introduction and almost 5 years since Pedro's fall and Carrot has yet to express any interest in learning about what the Straw Hat Pirates are fighting for and the larger story in play.
The Mink society through Zou is by extension of their relationship to the Kozuki Clan and Wano connected to the "Dawn". Consequently, the Mokomo Dukedom has relevance in assisting Momonosuke bring about the Dawn, which is what Pedro had been fighting for. Rather than Carrot continuing to be a reactive character, taking the responsibility of leadership and guiding the Mink toward a new future seems in line with bringing her character forward and advancing her story. She may not be equipped to lead a nation but neither is an 8 year boy but sometimes growth is derived through necessity and failing and falling establishes the stones forming the path toward success.
And talking about Momonosuke's growth, I'm glad to see he considered Yamato and Yamato's dreams when determining how best to take Wano forward. Momonosuke's actions were in line with how I saw his story developing a year ago:
@Syphin said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima):
Even if Yamato feels they have a duty to protect Momonosuke, Momonosuke will not allow that when it comes at the expense of Yamato's dream. Momonosuke's arc is about growing into a leader that will change Wano Kuni and eventually be the driving force behind the liberation of the world from the World Government and their deception, manipulation and malice. If anything, Momonosuke's path of liberation could start with Yamato by absolving Yamato of any obligations he may feel he has to Wano Kuni. If a compromise needs to be reached, Momonosuke may even tell Yamato to return to Wano after he has his adventure with the Straw Hat Pirates and sailed to Laugh Tale.Momonosuke has to come to learn about his importance and potentially the importance of the Straw Hat Pirates concerning the fight his father (and mother) died for (assisting those that will see Joy Boy's will through). Momonosuke is also rapidly coming to understand the benefit Yamato can have toward reaching such an end (knowledge, strength and intention) and rather than continuing to shackle Yamato to Wano Kuni and the Kozuki family, Momonosuke will instead support Yamato's desire to join the Straw Hat Pirates. Momonosuke has learned about Yamato's story and has read Oden's journal and knows about how the two were shackled to Wano. If Yamato wants to be Oden, Momonosuke will not be the Sukiyaki in that story. Momonosuke will be Momonosuke. By opening up Wano's borders, Momonosuke will also open up the path toward Yamato seeing their dream fulfilled.
The focus Oda has given to the Yamato and Momonosuke relationship isn't inconsequential but rather substantial for a reason - because Momonosuke will have a hand in directing Yamato to joining the Straw Hat Pirates.
I've really enjoyed Momonosuke's growth during the latter half of the Wano Arc.
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Well I made a bet that Yamato would join on the discord so let’s hope that’s how it turns out
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@Syphin
Great postAt present I'm still struggling to view Carrot as a main character after the treatment, focus and development she has received throughout her story. It has been over 250 chapters since her introduction and almost 5 years since Pedro's fall and Carrot has yet to express any interest in learning about what the Straw Hat Pirates are fighting for and the larger story in play.
While verbally Carrot hasn't expressed much interest in the Straw Hats in Wano, visually Carrot has spent a lot of her screen time with the Straw Hats. She was with the crew when Luffy vised old Kuri castle, when Jinbe appeared she was with the crew. Also what are the Straw Hats fighting for? Becoming Pirate King? The Romance of Adventure? Freedom? Besides even if Carrot knew what that was it would only add to reasons why she doesn't need to join. Understanding the importance Straw Hat's voyage is one of the things Pedro left for her to find out, she could ask for the answer but then she wouldn't need the journey to find out.
The Mink society through Zou is by extension of their relationship to the Kozuki Clan and Wano connected to the "Dawn". Consequently, the Mokomo Dukedom has relevance in assisting Momonosuke bring about the Dawn, which is what Pedro had been fighting for. Rather than Carrot continuing to be a reactive character, taking the responsibility of leadership and guiding the Mink toward a new future seems in line with bringing her character forward and advancing her story. She may not be equipped to lead a nation but neither is an 8 year boy but sometimes growth is derived through necessity and failing and falling establishes the stones forming the path toward success.
The Dawn is a rather vague idea that we don't know much of, but we know that the Straw Hat's will guide the way to the Dawn (ch.877) the that Momo will bring it (ch.996), if Carrot joined the crew she would still guide the Kozuki Clan to the Dawn.
Leadership wise Momo was given may chance to assume leadership, anytime a mink that's not Inurashi & Nekomamushi needs need to take a leader role it's Pedro, Shishilian, and Wanda. Still Shishilian and Wanda could help guide Carrot like the scabbards are for Momo.
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The big difference between Momo and Carrot as leaders of their nations is that Momo wants to lead, he time and again stated that even though the task itself is much too big for him, whereas Carrot never showed interest in leading.
Adding the whole "you gara are carrying Pedro's will" doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because I don't associate that with being the next leader of Wano.Pedro set out to find more poneglyphes, so that he could help the person following in Rogers's footsteps and thus help bring the dawn.
But then again that whole "dawn concept" is so vague it could be many things.
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@Syphin said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
At present I'm still struggling to view Carrot as a main character after the treatment, focus and development she has received throughout her story. It has been over 250 chapters since her introduction and almost 5 years since Pedro's fall and Carrot has yet to express any interest in learning about what the Straw Hat Pirates are fighting for and the larger story in play.
It's not that she's not interested. It's that she still doesn't yet know. Also, as I have said many times on other forums, including Reddit, is that Carrot's development and story started on WCI.
Its easy to explain that Carrot didn't get any focus in Wano, mainly because it was Momo's arc this time ahead. Add the fact Wano had TONS of characters for Oda to juggle, its very easy to explain why Carrot didn't get any focus. Heck, Usopp didn't get to do much as well.
One could say that, Carrot's story was put on hold for the moment while Wano played. Now Wano is ending, and suddenly Carrot gets brought up again. If Carrot was so unimportant as many people like to say, why even bother with the scene she's supposedly getting "promoted" out of nowhere?
She could have simply just faded in the background instead, you know, and that would have been that.
Ultimately, Wano was literally Momo's arc, and in latter half, Yamato's.
The Mink society through Zou is by extension of their relationship to the Kozuki Clan and Wano connected to the "Dawn". Consequently, the Mokomo Dukedom has relevance in assisting Momonosuke bring about the Dawn, which is what Pedro had been fighting for. Rather than Carrot continuing to be a reactive character, taking the responsibility of leadership and guiding the Mink toward a new future seems in line with bringing her character forward and advancing her story. She may not be equipped to lead a nation but neither is an 8 year boy but sometimes growth is derived through necessity and failing and falling establishes the stones forming the path toward success.
Carrot at the moment isn't even interested in the very prospect in ruling over a nation, unlike Momo, who has been screaming his desires to be Shogun for like, ages. The two aren't even remotely comparable.
Carrot's words in the latest chapter spell that out very clear, and we have yet to hear her answer on this topic on whether she accepted or not. We got neither. In this case, her final answer and actions is what matters the most, not what we want or theorize.
If this was so sure, that scene should have given Carrot's full answer whether she accepted or not. It doesn't take much to do so.
A lot of people in the fandom, at least 90% agrees that Carrot's "promotion" feels undeserved, not to say, in how that scene was constructed. Again, Carrot's facial expressions says a lot.
That said, however, I'm not against the idea of her becoming a ruler of Zou. In fact, I think that is a fitting conclusion to her ongoing story arc and development, but right now, she's not ready yet to take up such a burden, and this is not because she's dumb or has no skills. It's a mental thing, and her facial expressions says that as much.
Now if she were to join the crew and get to understand the meaning of the Dawn and in turn, Pedro's will, that will ultimately, very likely, give her the knowledge and wisdom for her to take the position as Duchess of Zou. Then it makes sense for her to become ruler.
But, now, no, she's not ready yet, and I find the idea of Shishilan and Wanda "helping" her really dumb, because those two barely had any story presence to begin with. It feels like a cop out, and comparing this to Momo feels completely out of place as I explained it in my last paragraph.
@pokebat7 said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
While verbally Carrot hasn't expressed much interest in the Straw Hats in Wano, visually Carrot has spent a lot of her screen time with the Straw Hats. She was with the crew when Luffy vised old Kuri castle, when Jinbe appeared she was with the crew. Also what are the Straw Hats fighting for? Becoming Pirate King? The Romance of Adventure? Freedom? Besides even if Carrot knew what that was it would only add to reasons why she doesn't need to join. Understanding the importance Straw Hat's voyage is one of the things Pedro left for her to find out, she could ask for the answer but then she wouldn't need the journey to find out.
All of this, pretty much.
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I admit the story could have explored Carrot a little more as a lead up to her potentially being ruler, but if that’s her path and ends up really wanting to do it for the Dawn, then I’d accept it. Carrot never even seemed like someone who never had the potential set-up go with the Straw Hats to Laugh Tale if you ask me, even when considering her moments, but still has enough potential after he seeing her determination and fighting potential to grow into a good ruler if she really harnessed in on her skills more there. If that’s the case, I wish her the best.
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It vivi she is with Sabo he has luffy vivre card she knows the strawhat are someone she can trust to protect her
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Miscellaneous Thought
- The Big Mom Pirates have been a "Chekhov's gun" for a while now; I believe that their purpose it to become the reason Carrot and Yamato get a bounty.
Zoro -> King (1,390,000,000)
Sanji -> Queen (1,320,000,000)
Yamato -> Smoothie (932,000,000)
Jinbe -> Who's-Who (546,000,000)
Robin -> Black Maria (480,000,000)
Franky -> Sasaki (472,000,000)
Nami -> Ulti (400,000,000)
Carrot -> Daifuku (300,000,000)
Usopp -> Page One (290,000,000)
But as of now I don't know how they'd meet or fight each other.
- The Big Mom Pirates have been a "Chekhov's gun" for a while now; I believe that their purpose it to become the reason Carrot and Yamato get a bounty.
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@pokebat7 said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
Miscellaneous Thought
- The Big Mom Pirates have been a "Chekhov's gun" for a while now; I believe that their purpose it to become the reason Carrot and Yamato get a bounty.
Zoro -> King (1,390,000,000)
Sanji -> Queen (1,320,000,000)
Yamato -> Smoothie (932,000,000)
Jinbe -> Who's-Who (546,000,000)
Robin -> Black Maria (480,000,000)
Franky -> Sasaki (472,000,000)
Nami -> Ulti (400,000,000)
Carrot -> Daifuku (300,000,000)
Usopp -> Page One (290,000,000)
But as of now I don't know how they'd meet or fight each other.
I get the feeling Yamato attacking Aramaki can give a good chance for Yamato to have a bounty already, because of how he can just report her to the Marines.
- The Big Mom Pirates have been a "Chekhov's gun" for a while now; I believe that their purpose it to become the reason Carrot and Yamato get a bounty.
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@electricmastro
Did Yamato even score a hit an Aramaki given Momo tried to stop him?
If he didn't how would Aramaki even know how strong Yamato is compared to the Scabbards? he did think they were very strong either.How would that conversation even go? "Hey I ran away from Wano, but their was this one really strong guy I couldn't fight must be Billion berry man"
Of course he found out that Yamato is Kaido's kid but that hasn't helped any of Big Mom's kids get a Billion Berry.Sorry if I can off as rude, the Idea is nice but doesn't make much sense
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@pokebat7 said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@electricmastro
Did Yamato even score a hit an Aramaki given Momo tried to stop him?Yep, Aramaki even complimenting how strong her Haki is.
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@electricmastro
Oh, Cool!
Still, Yamato would lack reputation hurting an admiral is impressive but not a feat that would give her a bounty, at least not without Momo getting one. -
If Carrot gets a bounty, it most likely reflects the Bepo/Chopper treatment.
Seeing Nami's name pisses me off all over again. Oda could have come up with a better reason for why Zeus didn't unleash a whole flood. I get stuff like this and WB not addressing Wano, but I don't like it.
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@pokebat7 said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
Miscellaneous Thought
- The Big Mom Pirates have been a "Chekhov's gun" for a while now; I believe that their purpose it to become the reason Carrot and Yamato get a bounty.
Zoro -> King (1,390,000,000)
Sanji -> Queen (1,320,000,000)
Yamato -> Smoothie (932,000,000)
Jinbe -> Who's-Who (546,000,000)
Robin -> Black Maria (480,000,000)
Franky -> Sasaki (472,000,000)
Nami -> Ulti (400,000,000)
Carrot -> Daifuku (300,000,000)
Usopp -> Page One (290,000,000)
But as of now I don't know how they'd meet or fight each other.
Interesting to note you gave Carrot such a high bounty. It's nearly at the level of Pekoms' own bounty of 350 million.
- The Big Mom Pirates have been a "Chekhov's gun" for a while now; I believe that their purpose it to become the reason Carrot and Yamato get a bounty.
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@Galleon-Panthera
The other Option is Mont-d'Or who has a bounty of 120,000,000 who is also on the Big Mom's Ship. But, if she was to join the crew she would need to be comparable to even the weakest members. Though, if she had a low bounty it would strike at the weakness she feels from being unable to save Pedro/ defeat Perospero. Additionally, Carrot was unable to defeat Daifuku in WCI in sulong form so if she did it now in base it would show how much she's grown. -
A few words on Carrot...
This last development for her feels so... hollow! There's something wrong about it, and I want to address it, as well as share some thoughts on Carrot's future.
Carrot started as a very simple character. A fun young rabbit mink, she hopped into the Sunny and has been considered a strong candidate for crewmate ever since.
Personally, I never felt she was meant to be a crewmate. There was something lacking in that regard. Her personality sure fits the crew really well, there's no doubt at that. She acts like the young sister of the Straw Hat family: energetic, fun-loving, careless to an extent. She interacts really well with Luffy, Chopper and Nami, and bonded with Jinbe, Brook and Sanji.
What she lacked, IMO, was direction. She felt like a temporary companion to compensate the reduced crew size in WCI. She had no clear purpose, personal objective or higher drive of her own, thought. She was there for fun, and, as such, I expected her arc would be about maturing.
She also clearly was meant to showcase what the minks can do. We saw most of mink's skills through her, specially the sulong transformation.
So, in my mind, her role was to tag along, to help crew interaction, to mature, and to show what the minks can do. She'd eventually leave.
Pedro's death added more to her. It gave her a kind of a sad backstory. It was just being built in the present rather than be a reveal about her past. And his words to her hinted at an improved role ahead:
"Keep going forward."
"Everyone has its chance to shine."Still, I never thought she'd join the crew. After her strong showing in WCI, thought, I was sure she'd have a great conclusion in Wano.
Except it never happened. To me, Carrot was one of the worst handled characters lately. I felt Oda did a big disservice for her fans.
Despite, or maybe because, her arc being mishandled in Onigashima, I wouldn't bat an eye if Carrot's next development were to return to Zou. Maybe she had enough adventure and just wanted to be with the minks again, to rest and gain strength for the future.
But what we got in Ch 1056 makes no sense at all. Mink ruler? Why?
Her character arc wasn't about gaining or showing leadership. She had no personal drive nor meaningful moments to build that up.
This conclusion feels displaced. And she doesn't feel happy about it either.
So, this gives me the feeling that Carrot's character arc isn't over yet. Because this development does not fit her nor is wanted by her, it really feels like Oda is just giving her a new reason to stow away in the Sunny again: to mature further and become worthy of her position.
Maybe Oda is just mishandling things again. Maybe Carrot will accept her duty and return to Zou to lead the minks. But it feels so wrong! It feels like a setup for something else!
Let's be clear: I'm still not in the "Carrot will join" camp, but I'm less sure of it than I was before 1056. I'm now intrigued by her fate.
So, if we see Carrot accepting her duty and waving goodbye to the Straw Hats before they leave Wano, it's over. Her arc will have a really weak conclusion, but the deal is done.
But if we don't see her again before the end of Wano, hen the chances that she will pop up again in the Sunny will be really really high. (Which doesn't mean she joins the crew yet, but her chances for joining will keep going until it's made official)
"But if she stows away again, she's a traitor to the minks and will feel an undeserving crewmate to the audience."
One Piece is about freedom. If she chooses to go, I'm sure the minks will be shown to be unsurprised and understanding, because that's where Carrot's heart is. That's why, for example, I always said Yamato would stay in Wano by his own will, not because of any duty or pity. I see Yamato's journey as he befriending Momonosuke and in the end happily choosing to be by his friend's side.
So, TLDR: Carrot's character arc does not seem to have reached its conclusion, and I, even thought I still place more chance of her not going with the crew right now, I wouldn't be surprised if Oda ends up keeping her around after Ch 1056.
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@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
One Piece is about freedom. If she chooses to go, I'm sure the minks will be shown to be unsurprised and understanding, because that's where Carrot's heart is. That's why, for example, I always said Yamato would stay in Wano by his own will, not because of any duty or pity. I see Yamato's journey as he befriending Momonosuke and in the end happily choosing to be by his friend's side.
Well, Carrot was a Kingsbird who was always dedicated to her fellow minks and may take up Pedro's will in becoming a leader like how he was, even forming a crew like he did and growing the potential she showed before.
As for Yamato, I wouldn't blame her if she choose to be with Luffy, because her moments with Momo shouldn't overshadow the moments she had with Luffy, even if it was fewer. I know they both like and appreciate each other as friends, because friendship isn't determined by time after all. It may be a disservice to just have Yamato stay and miss out on more of Luffy's journey after everything she said and did actually.
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@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
Well, Carrot was a Kingsbird who was always dedicated to her fellow minks and may take up Pedro's will in becoming a leader like how he was, even forming a crew like he did and growing the potential she showed before.
The thing is that Carrot's character arc didn't build up to her becoming the new leader of the minks. At no point her leadership skills were challenged or even showed, really, and her decision-making was actually quite poor.
And that's the problem: there's a dissonance between what Carrot aimed to do, what she did do in fact and what she learned, and the reward she got.
@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
As for Yamato, I wouldn't blame her if she choose to be with Luffy, because her moments with Momo shouldn't overshadow the moments she had with Luffy, even if it was fewer. I know they both like and appreciate each other as friends, because friendship isn't determined by time after all. It may be a disservice to just have Yamato stay and miss out on more of Luffy's journey after everything she said and did actually.
Unlike Carrot, I can totally see Yamato's journey leading to a conclusion in which Yamato chooses to stay (emphasis on chooses, that's the point here).
The story spent quite a lot of time developing Yamato's relationship with Momonosuke and reinforcing his dedication to Wano, and he even got an epilogue in the Green Bull fight to find out what Wano may face if he is not there to protect it.
Of course, maybe Carrot does choose to accept the duty that is placed on her in the end. Pedro's will is vague enough to allow the interpretation that he wanted her to take leadership. But no one can say that the story was leading to such conclusion. It felt like coming out of nowhere.
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@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
The story spent quite a lot of time developing Yamato's relationship with Momonosuke and reinforcing his dedication to Wano, and he even got an epilogue in the Green Bull fight to find out what Wano may face if he is not there to protect it.
You can say that, but that's not how the story framed it. The story didn't frame it as a scenario of Momo having to call on more help, because it was framed as a scenario where he did the exact opposite and Luffy being the captain who knows how to hit the nail on the head where it really counts even approved of Momo's handling of the situation even though Shanks was the one who scared the admiral away. If Momo was wrong, he would have been framed as wrong, but wasn't, and can't really be used as an excuse why Yamato should abandon any ambition to sail with Luffy as a result if you ask me.
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Can't believe AP almost missed the end of Wano and the culmination of 6 years of intense NN discussion if we consider the start of WCI as the beginning of the current contenders (AP feels like the main place to discuss the subject and the subject seems like AP main interest).
So to update my take on them:
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Tama: At first I was strongly against Tama joining, but during the raid I started to warm up to the idea that she and Momo could join as a kid duo. It is a common trope and in OP it finds an antecedent in Shanks & Buggy. Obviously, that bridge was burned when Momo aged.
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Carrot: Was a strong supporter of her case half-way through WCI, but Wano killed my hopes. Onigashima brought a sliver of hope when she at least started to be drawn again (that's how far the case fell: the simple fact she was drawn in panels felt like new hope), but even that died when she was side-quested into her stupid vendetta against Perospero and missed all plot relevant events thanks to that.
Then the scene on chapter 1056 happened. Honestly, if this scene happened 4 years ago, I would say it was sealing the deal. The scene gives everything Carrot lacks to make her case work, it fits like a glove. But that would be 4 years ago. Now it's hard to believe that this scene alone tops 4 years of background (actually, 2 years of background and 2 years of "not even that").
But even more than that, the main difference from now to then is that, after everything in Wano, I really can't trust Oda's writing anymore. 4 years ago, I would say if he was throwing seeds it definitely meant something. But now? It could be something, it could be absolutely nothing (and the scene was really meant for Carrot to be coerced into a role she doesn't want, is not qualified for, strips her from following her will and dreams, and has her mentor's death used as bargain coin to make her feel bad about refusing it).
On the other hand, for the exact same reason, I would not be surprised to find out that he really totally neglected a character that was meant to join the SH for 4 years. I don't think any of the Wano "problems" were as egregious as that, but it wouldn't feel like a surprise either (and in that case, the scene was just Inuarashi and Nekomamushi tricking her into fleeing again to do what she wants). -
Yamato: For a couple of reasons, I simply can't see Yamato as a SH. Yamato closeness to Ace and his friendship with Luffy makes them too much like equals, in a way is like Yamato becoming a SH is a "demotion". That, coupled with Yamato knowing "Luffy's real dream" - something only Ace and Sabo know - and him spending a night drinking sake with Ace (revealed on the chapter titled to mean Yamato brew a sake waiting for Luffy) led me to coin my personal theory: Oda plans for Yamato is to be the 4th ASLY brother.
So in the next arc he will sail with the SH (but not as part of the crew), will be more fleshed out and will bond with Sabo. At the end of the arc, the three of them will share sake too and Yamato will be formally accepted as a brother, understanding that's what Ace already did before. After that, just like the other 3, Yamato will sail on his own adventure.
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@access-timeco said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
- Yamato: For a couple of reasons, I simply can't see Yamato as a SH. Yamato closeness to Ace and his friendship with Luffy makes them too much like equals, in a way is like Yamato becoming a SH is a "demotion".
Interesting, since Jinbe was also friends with Ace. Would that have been considered a demotion?
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@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
@access-timeco said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
- Yamato: For a couple of reasons, I simply can't see Yamato as a SH. Yamato closeness to Ace and his friendship with Luffy makes them too much like equals, in a way is like Yamato becoming a SH is a "demotion".
Interesting, since Jinbe was also friends with Ace. Would that have been considered a demotion?
Jinbe fought Ace and they got in good terms, but they weren't friends. On their first talk in Impel Down in chapter 529 is clear they are acquainted but not close.
But that's beyond the point. Even if they were really "friends", the "closeness" I mentioned between Yamato and Ace is more than just that.
Yamato and Ace were depicted as basically best buddies. To me Yamato seemed like a true brother to him, not unlike Sabo or Luffy (ignoring the temporal aspect, since Yamato was with him for 3 days instead of years).Also, I said it was this coupled with the other reasons, not just that.
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Are there missing posts?
There's a notification that @electricmastro mentioned me in this thread, but I can't see it (even clicking on the notification doesn't work to find it). And now I'm seeing @access-timeco also replying to an @electricmastro post that I can't see.
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@Deicide
that sound like this post (#2983) and this post (#2986) -
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@pokebat7 I can't see any of those.
I guess @electricmastro put me in an ignore or block list, because when I check his profile and click on his 3.1k posts link, it says "This user hasn't posted anything yet".
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@Deicide
Yeah though that was the case, anyways here's what they said:electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
The story spent quite a lot of time developing Yamato's relationship with Momonosuke and reinforcing his dedication to Wano, and he even got an epilogue in the Green Bull fight to find out what Wano may face if he is not there to protect it.
You can say that, but that's not how the story framed it. The story didn't frame it as a scenario of Momo having to call on more help, because it was framed as a scenario where he did the exact opposite and Luffy being the captain who knows how to hit the nail on the head where it really counts even approved of Momo's handling of the situation even though Shanks was the one who scared the admiral away. If Momo was wrong, he would have been framed as wrong, but wasn't, and can't really be used as an excuse why Yamato should abandon any ambition to sail with Luffy as a result if you ask me.
And
electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
access-timeco said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
- Yamato: For a couple of reasons, I simply can't see Yamato as a SH. Yamato closeness to Ace and his friendship with Luffy makes them too much like equals, in a way is like Yamato becoming a SH is a "demotion".
Interesting, since Jinbe was also friends with Ace. Would that have been considered a demotion?
Jinbe fought Ace and they got in good terms, but they weren't friends. On their first talk in Impel Down in chapter 529 is clear they are acquainted but not close.
But that's beyond the point. Even if they were really "friends", the "closeness" I mentioned between Yamato and Ace is more than just that.
Yamato and Ace were depicted as basically best buddies. To me Yamato seemed like a true brother to him, not unlike Sabo or Luffy (ignoring the temporal aspect, since Yamato was with him for 3 days instead of years).Also, I said it was this coupled with the other reasons, not just that.
If you want to read any of the missing posts in the future just message me so it doesn't clutter the tread.
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@pokebat7 Thank you.
At least I know now what he replied to me.
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I still don't believe Yamato won't join Luffy in his adventure. The story Oda has set up for Yamato has very much established Yamato as perceiving Luffy as his primary focus. Not once during Yamato's time with Momonosuke during the Wano arc has he placed Momonosuke above Luffy within his mind. The plot threads related to Joy Boy needs a Straw Hat Pirate to carry it and so far Robin and Luffy hasn't been set-up to push forward the destiny related to Joy Boy. Yamato on the other hand has inherited Oden's will whose wish was to assist the Joy Boy of the current age finish what the Joy Boy of the past was unable to complete. Yamato sailing to Laugh Tale with the Straw Hat Pirates will also assist Momonosuke in finding out what Oden discovered and removed from his journal after writing it down.
Yamato joining the Straw Hat Pirates is a natural consequence of everything Oda has set up so far.
@Syphin said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
Looking at Yamato as a character, Oda-sensei introduced them in a very specific way that directed him toward Luffy. From the fact that Luffy was the person Yamato was waiting for to Yamato’s expression of wanting to travel aboard Luffy’s ship. There wasn’t much hesitation in Yamato’s mind about leaving with the Straw Hat Pirates once Wano was liberated and its borders opened. In order to make a case for Yamato remaining in Wano, the narrative would need to entrench Yamato and his desires within the plot threads of Wano but as at chapter 1047, that has not yet happened (potentially it still could). Rather, Yamato leaving with Luffy has only been reinforced.
How Yamato was introduced:
Let’s look at how Yamato was introduced. He hid himself from the Beast Pirates during that day in order to wait for Luffy to arrive so that he could meet him. The fact that Yamato specifically searched for Luffy and intervened in Luffy’s fight against Ulti conveys how focused Yamato was on Luffy. This reality became further apparent when Yamato declared he would fight on Luffy’s side. At this point, Yamato’s primary interest was Luffy, whom Yamato believed would stop Kaido. Yamato even told Luffy that he had no issue fighting against his father when Luffy inquired if he was okay with his father being defeated. In order for Yamato’s story to align with Momonosuke and Wano, the primary focus within Yamato’s mind would need to switch from Luffy to Wano.
Going forward, Yamato rejected Kaido’s intention to make him shogun and became further indebted to Luffy when his explosive bindings were removed and Luffy shared with him the information that Momonosuke and the Akazaya Samurai were alive. Yamato guided Luffy to the Performance Floor where Momonosuke was chained. And this is where a very important moment conveying both Oda-sensei and Luffy’s impression of Yamato took place. When Yamato attempted to engage his father, Luffy stopped him and stated that Yamato and him weren’t the ones who needed to start the War. The ones who needed to initiate the War were the representatives of Wano i.e. the Akazaya Samurai. In Luffy’s eyes, Yamato was not a representation or reflection of Wano. Yamato was like him, an outsider. He was not an agent of Wano. Oda-sensei, at this point, clearly set up Yamato to be separate from those who truly belonged to Wano.
How Yamato and Momonosuke's relationship developed:
Once the Akazaya Samurai attacked Kaido and began the war, Yamato could have rushed to Momonosuke to help save him but instead, Yamato remained beside Luffy while facing Ulti. Yamato declared he would become Oden on this day and that he stands in opposition to his father. Yamato also heard Luffy declare his intention to defeat the Beast Pirates, Big Mom and Orochi confirming Yamato’s belief that Luffy will be the one to save Wano. If at this point in time, Momonosuke was Yamato’s primary focus, Yamato would have acted to save him but instead, what we have is Yamato only taking on the responsibility of protecting Momonosuke AFTER ordered to by Luffy. Yamato’s primary focus remained Luffy with Momonosuke becoming his secondary focus. When Yamato saves Momonosuke, he mentions that he would die for Momonosuke. There is no lies in Yamato’s words but this moment did not push Momonosuke to be Yamato’s primary focus substantiated by Yamato still leaving Momonosuke to assist Luffy against Kaido and a second time leaving Momonosuke to stop the Onigashima bombs from exploding. These moments convey how Momonosuke continued to remain secondary to Luffy in Yamato’s mind.
The story Yamato shared with Momonosuke and Shinobu about his past conveyed how Luffy became important to Yamato after meeting Ace with Yamato only realizing Luffy’s relevance AFTER Ace died. It also presented to readers how meaningful being free and sailing the seas were to Yamato. There is also the fact that Yamato now knows what Luffy’s dream beyond being Pirate King is. A dream very intimate to Luffy as he expressed it in front of his brothers in the past. Additionally, chapter 999 sets up Yamato visiting Ace’s grave once Kaido is defeated and Wano’s borders are opened. There will definitely be payoff to the set up established. Yamato's flashback and narration also sets up the New Generation (which Yamato has become a part of) VS the Current Generation (Yonko).
Arguably, the flashbacks also indirectly convey Yamato’s 3D2Y moment. The moment Yamato lost Ace was the moment he gained Luffy. Through the grief and sorrow, Yamato’s familiarity with Oden’s words and the story Ace shared with him unlocked a connection Yamato never noticed before. Luffy was the one Oden had been waiting for and desired to open Wano’s borders for. When Yamato met Ace, he was okay with leaving Wano on Ace’s ship if he could but once Yamato made the connection between Luffy and Joy Boy, he realized how important it was to open Wano’s borders. Freedom and adventure were always Yamato’s focus but saving Wano and opening its borders were never his primary concerns when he met Ace. It was Luffy who established in Yamato’s mind the need to have Wano’s borders opened. This is why Yamato has been waiting for Luffy and unlike how his meeting with Ace played out, Yamato is now aware of the importance of defeating Kaido and liberating the nation before leaving.
Yamato abandoning Momonosuke to help Luffy fight Kaido establishes how important Luffy is to Yamato relative to Momonosuke. If Momonosuke was Yamato’s primary concern, Yamato would not have left Momonosuke vulnerable. Clearly at this point, Luffy is still Yamato’s primary focus. Yamato even mentions to Kaido without ambiguity and uncertainty or any other room for interpretation that he plans to LEAVE Wano WITH Luffy after Kaido is defeated. Those words are clear. No hesitation. No doubt. Only resolve.
Yamato goes on to further state that Luffy is the one who Oden was waiting for i.e. Joy Boy. This expression clearly establishes why Yamato is ready to fight for Luffy. Thanks to reading Oden’s journal and treating it as his Bible, Joy Boy (Luffy) became a figure of salvation within Yamato’s mind for Wano and the world. When Ace died, it was the connection Yamato made between Luffy and Joy Boy that likely inspired him to continue fighting through the grief and powerlessness (similar to what happened to Sabo). Through Yamato’s battle with Kaido, the theme of liberation became a focal point to his character. From his flashbacks, to the events in the present day, Yamato continuously challenged Kaido and refused to yield. Freeing the world is a story Joy Boy is destined for and Yamato very much aligns with this in regards to his past and the story playing out in the Wano Kuni Arc.
The main reason driving Yamato to fight Kaido was not to defeat Kaido and save Wano but to hold Kaido back until Luffy returns to challenge him again. Yamato even states this when Kaido expresses that Yamato cannot defeat him. Yamato knows he cannot defeat Kaido alone yet he still chooses to fight and this is because of Luffy. Yamato understands that he alone cannot help free Wano and places his belief in Luffy who he sees as Joy Boy, the representation of liberation. When Luffy does return, Oda-sensei expresses how well Luffy and Yamato work together with their unintentional joint attack against Kaido. This is one of Yamato’s best panels illustrated by Oda-sensei. Yamato left Kaido to Luffy when he returned and after seeing Luffy and Kaido split the sky like Oden described Roger and Whitbeard doing, Yamato had more confirmation that Luffy truly is the one to defeat Kaido. What Oden began to see in Roger which played a part in Oden agreeing to travel with Roger over Whitebeard, Yamato is seeing firsthand in Luffy.
Yamato's belief in Momonosuke:
Moving ahead, once again Yamato does not proactively leave with Momonosuke, he only does so when Luffy request Yamato to help Momonosuke with stopping Onigashima from falling on the Flower Capital. During Yamato guiding Momonosuke, he does not scold Momonosuke for being a coward (because Yamato doesn’t believe he is) but he does yell at Momonosuke for not believing in Luffy. Yamato believes Momonosuke is capable of saving Wano which is why Yamato left Momonosuke alone to deal with the Onigashima explosives. If Yamato truly felt Momonosuke was not ready and needed more of his advice, Yamato would have passed the responsibility of stopping the Onigashima bombs from exploding onto someone else and returned to help Momonosuke. That clearly did not happen. Only after the Onigashima bombs were dealt with did Yamato and Momonosuke reunite and this wasn’t by intention but by circumstance. Once the Wano Kuni Arc concludes after Momonosuke carries Onigashima on his back, Yamato’s will have little reason to remain in Wano over leaving with Luffy and helping him.
Turning to scene where Momonosuke questions whether he is a coward, he expressed his frustration to Yamato at not knowing what his father discovered on Laugh Tale. Momonosuke’s desires of wanting to know the contents of the torn out page from Oden’s journal was conveyed to Yamato. This scene doesn’t express to Yamato that Momonosuke isn’t ready so he needs to remain in Wano but rather it gives Yamato more of reason to leave. Momonosuke wants to know the secrets of Laugh Tale and he confided this in Yamato. Not Luffy, Kin’emon or Robin but the child of Kaido. Yamato has a genuine reason to travel to Laugh Tale and help alleviate Momonosuke’s confusion. Momonosuke is destined to guide the world to the Dawn which is a plot thread set up to conclude after the Straw Hat Pirates reach Laugh Tale. And due to Momonosuke having confided in Yamato, it will be him conveying the secrets of Laugh Tale to Momonosuke.
Through Momonosuke, who heard the voice of Zunesha, Yamato received confirmation that Luffy was Joy Boy. Yamato even queried Momonosuke on this. Yamato witnessing Luffy in Gear Five fighting Kaido as an equal gave Yamato more motivation to help him by requesting Momonosuke to keep Onigashima from falling. Yamato continues to believe in Momonosuke’s ability and the reality that Momonosuke is ready to carry the nation and the future of the world on his back.
Yamato continues to operate with Luffy as his primary focus. And at no time during the arc as at chapter 1047, has Oda-sensei had Yamato place Momonosuke as a concern above Luffy. Momonosuke has always been a secondary focus to Yamato. To Yamato, Luffy has been the one primarily driving his choices and actions.
The Okuchi no Makami And Its Role As Guardian Deity Of Wano:
The Okuchi no Makami may very well be a Guardian Deity of Wano but even if that is the case, does a Guardian Deity of Wano need to remain in Wano to continue being a Guardian? We already have evidence in the manga that the answer is no. When Kin'emon and Co. got sent 20 years into the future, they did not need to remain in Wano to fulfill their Guardian Deities role, rather they left and returned. In order to save and protect Wano, they needed allies and as such left Wano to reach Zou. At present a similar scenario is playing out. Wano initially closed its borders to protect itself from an external power and to await the return of Joy Boy. With Luffy being Joy Boy and about to defeat Kaido, Wano will be liberated and its border inevitably opened. Oden wished for this happen and for Wano and the world to support Joy Boy when he returns. Wano's ultimate victory over the external power they initially closed their borders for over 800 years ago will be determined by Joy Boy. Which in turn means the fate of Wano rest in the journey Luffy is engaged in. By leaving Wano with Luffy and assisting him as Oden wished (Yamato has inherited Oden's will), Yamato will be performing his role as Guardian Deity of Wano. Sailing with Luffy and performing the role of Guardian Deity are not mutually exclusive. And the home Yamato will return to after the journey will be Wano.
When it comes to the Zoan Devil Fruits having a will, it establishes that the Zoan Devil Fruit has to an extent some choice over who their user is. The Okuchi no Makami Fruit chose Yamato. Not the Samurai. Not the Beast Pirates. Not an average civilian. But Yamato. A child who idolized Oden and wished to adventure and sail the seas. Why? Why Yamato? If the Okuchi no Makami Fruit was concerned with the protection of Wano, there would have been better options than a child of Kaido who was imprisoned on Onigashima unable leave. Zoan Devil Fruits may have a will but they cannot see into the future and know with certainty what will happen. It was not guaranteed that Yamato would continue to challenge their father for 20 years (or indefinitely - it is not like Fruit knew when Joy Boy would arrive…unless it did). The likely scenario was Yamato breaking down from despair, hopelessness and suffering to become a soldier of Kaido. Rather than some future event that hasn't happened motivating the Zoan Devil Fruit, what appears more likely is the current disposition of the individual being the focal rationale behind the Zoan Devil Fruit choosing the person. Did the Okuchi no Makami react to Yamato's adventurous and romantic spirit and his desire to carry on Oden's will?
These are my thoughts on Yamato and how the plot is influencing the direction he is being developed in. The Wano Arc isn't just treating Yamato as a main character but the whole manga is supporting his story; from Ace, to Oden, to Luffy/Joy Boy, to Wano, to Kaido, to Xebec D. Rocks (likely betrayed Kaido), to Blackbeard (his actions resulted in Ace's death) to the Ancient Giants/Oni, to the Dawn, to the themes of liberation, freedom, romance and coexistence. The manga itself is highlighting Yamato as unique and important. Every single expected future arc has story threads related to Yamato.
Tldr; Luffy is Yamato's primary focus with Momonosuke/Wano as his secondary. Oda has yet to lift Momonosuke's importance above Luffy in Yamato's mind.
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I think there's an element of 'telling rather than showing' when it comes to Yamato's connection to Luffy and the Straw Hats. I'm not saying they aren't friends now, but that bond still feels secondary because Oda has organically spent 80 chapter deepening her connection to Momo.
Which isn't to say she can't join, but it begs the question... why? Oda had multiple opportunities for Yamato to meet members of the crew during the battle on Onigashima.
Yamato's trauma is rooted in Kaido depriving her of friends. While we didn't really delve into Kaido's backstory and the history of the ogres, which creatd his twisted worldview, the most direct representation of Yamato being deprived her freedom wasn't an inability to leave, but an inability to form attachments.
So why didn't Oda actually show us the Straw Hats filling this primary need in Yamato's life? The tales of Luffy Yamato heard from Ace offered her a beacon of hope in a manner similar to the words in Oden's journal, but she found the genuine article - in Momo.
It's not at all a rule that new crewmember need to spend all of their time on panel with Luffy, but generally, they at least spend a considerable amount of time bonding with one or more members of the crew. Chopper with Nami, Franky with Usopp, Sanji, and Robin, Brook with Robin, Franky, and Zoro.
I don't think it's a problem Oda didn't include those scenes during the raid, and it always seemed possible he was saving Yamato's interactions with the crew until later. But later is here and he still hasn't really deepened the connections. Even in the 7 chapters since the battle ended, Yamato has shared only a handful of scenes with the crew - the introduction, the bath scene, and pigging out with Luffy and Chopper. All of which has been pretty light, played mostly for jokes. And then, again in chapter 1055, we see a deep emotional connection between Momo and Yamato.
If Yamato does sail away, which I'm still not saying is impossible, just (in my opinion) unlikely, it just makes me wonder why Oda made those choices. So far, I haven't seen any big impactful or emotional scenes shared between Yamato and the Straw Hats in the post-battle portion of the arc to really justify or make sense of Yamato not meeting or interacting at all with the Straw Hats throughout the battle. He did a great job showing us Yamato actually forming a connection to Momo and indeed if we look at Road to Laugh Tale, it seems that's the primary relationship Oda imagined for Yamato. So I have to imagine that if Oda intended Yamato to bond primarily with the crew, he would've found the opportunity to do so.
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@StrawHatJedi said in [Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)]
It's not at all a rule that new crewmember need to spend all of their time on panel with Luffy, but generally, they at least spend a considerable amount of time bonding with one or more members of the crew. Chopper with Nami, Franky with Usopp, Sanji, and Robin, Brook with Robin, Franky, and Zoro.
I call farce on that since once again even Robin didn't really bond with any of the Straw Hats at Whiskey Peak or Alabasta, and the opinion of her being more mysterious doesn't make her an exception if you ask me. And it's not as if Yamato is favoriting Momo to the point that she hasn't shown interesting in being friends with Luffy either.
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@Syphin said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
I still don't believe Yamato won't join Luffy in his adventure. The story Oda has set up for Yamato has very much established Yamato as perceiving Luffy as his primary focus. Not once during Yamato's time with Momonosuke during the Wano arc has he placed Momonosuke above Luffy within his mind. The plot threads related to Joy Boy needs a Straw Hat Pirate to carry it and so far Robin and Luffy hasn't been set-up to push forward the destiny related to Joy Boy. Yamato on the other hand has inherited Oden's will whose wish was to assist the Joy Boy of the current age finish what the Joy Boy of the past was unable to complete. Yamato sailing to Laugh Tale with the Straw Hat Pirates will also assist Momonosuke in finding out what Oden discovered and removed from his journal after writing it down.
Agreed, Yamato's interaction with Momo still doesn't change that Ace told Yamato about the end part of Luffy's dream, took down Ulti for Luffy, held Kaido back for him, did a team attack, caught him as he was falling, and even shared a bath and festival together. I don't take issue with people bringing up Yamato's interaction with Momo, but can fall into one when people talk of Yamato's interaction with Momo as if to dismiss Yamato's interest and interaction with Luffy as if it can't be anything special because it's not the same as her interaction with Momo.
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Robin is the exception to virtually any 'rule' in that she was an antagonist before joining. And her loyalty remained a question, albeit one on the back burner, for a couple hundred chapters.
My point is that as far as we've seen after the end of the battle, there isn't really any reason for Oda to still be holding back on deepening Yamato's on-panel relationship with the crew.
So I think that's an odd choice if she's going to leave with them.
I know Luffy and the Straw Hats are Yamato's friends. But in terms of what we have actually gotten to see on panel, not jus what we've been told about, Yamato has spent most of her time in the story bonding with Momo.
Oda dedicated a lot of time to showing us that relationship growing, not just telling us that it exists. So far, he hasn't done that with Yamato and the crew. Not saying he can't or won't, but the window is closing the ship preparing to set sail - and it's not like he hasn't had the opportunity.
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It all makes me wonder why Yamato, in the timeskip that followed, didn't even bother to ask, given how he has hammered down on it previously
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@StrawHatJedi said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):
My point is that as far as we've seen after the end of the battle, there isn't really any reason for Oda to still be holding back on deepening Yamato's on-panel relationship with the crew.
So I think that's an odd choice if she's going to leave with them.
I know Luffy and the Straw Hats are Yamato's friends. But in terms of what we have actually gotten to see on panel, not jus what we've been told about, Yamato has spent most of her time in the story bonding with Momo.
Oda dedicated a lot of time to showing us that relationship growing, not just telling us that it exists. So far, he hasn't done that with Yamato and the crew. Not saying he can't or won't, but the window is closing the ship preparing to set sail - and it's not like he hasn't had the opportunity.
I’m not denying Yamato’s interaction with Momo either. I just once again have to figure that since they’re both interested in Joy Boy, opening Wano’s borders, and the missing journal lore, I’m just led to think that Oda had Yamato establish a relationship with Momo first so as to have at least someone Yamato can come back to in the event she leaves.
Sure it would have been nice if Yamato interacted more with the Straw Hats before Chapter 1051, but I don’t see Momo as an obstacle to that, but rather as just another friend Yamato is making, like how Luffy befriended him before being ready to set off. I wouldn’t be surprised if Yamato was leaving specifically to answer a question Momo has about Joy Boy and the final island actually.
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@Galleon-Panthera Maybe he did, we just don't know yet.
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Yeah, I don't even mean from Yamato's perspective necessarily. Just as a writing choice, Oda has emphasized Yamato's Wano connections and hasn't spent a lot of panel time on organically developing her relationship with the crew.
During the raid, it felt like maybe he was building toward something big either later in the battle or after the battle.
But then, after the raid was finished, we still only got a small handful of brief scenes with the Straw Hats.
I don't have any doubt that over the past few weeks in story the Straw Hats have connected with Yamato, but the question is why Oda didn't show us more of these scenes. It just strikes me as an odd choice in storytelling if, at least right now, that was meant to be Yamato's primary bond.
I did suggest a few days ago / last week in a twitter thread that Yamato 'joining' and sailing with the Straw Hats could be separate matters, especially when they seem to have snubbed Momo & Kin, their two closest friends on Wano. I can only assume this is because they already consider them 'nakama', and I suspect Yamato will be similarly regarded, even if she doesn't join them on their adventures.
I thought things were looking up in terms of Yamato leaving at the end of Wano around 1050 / 1051, but the post-battle chapters made me lean back toward her staying.
The ambiguity of 1056's ending indicates Yamato has reached some type of epiphany which shifted or recontextualized her understanding of what it is to live like Kozuki Oden.
What I've really been trying to say is that 'being like Oden' is a thin motivation for Yamato sailing with the Straw Hats. I said this in 1050 / 1051 when Momo decided to close the borders, that maybe Yamato's way of building on Oden's legacy by sailing with the crew would mean searching for the answers about opening the borders. But then, Oda chose not to include her in the scenes where Pluton and the borders were discussed.
Essentially, in building a solid foundation for Yamato joining the crew, I think she needs to reach a place where she retires the Oden persona, meaning she has her own reasons for joining beyond trying to literally follow in someone else's footsteps, or, if she's going to continue trying to be Oden, then she needs to find some extension of his dream or will which demands she set out to sea.
The reason I say this is because just trying to repeat someone else, just doing something for the sole reason that someone else already did it is a very thin / goal and it carries less weight because Oden was fulfilling a vital purpose aboard Roger's ship which Yamato simply cannot for Luffy.
So, it means either saying it's something Yamato wants for herself, not at all framed within some rigid need to repeat the actions of her hero, or it means realizing something Oden left incomplete which demands her presence aboard the ship.
I thought maybe Oda was building toward the latter, but we haven't seen movement in either direction over the past seven chapters, which makes me more inclined to think she's going to remain behind.
I just wanted to clarify because it's not like there's no buildup toward Yamato joining and setting sail and I don't think it would take very much to develop those elements of her character / motivation which offer a compelling reason to do so... Oda just hasn't really done it.
The reason I emphasized Momo is because Oda showed us that relationship developing. Comparatively, he only told us about Yamato's connection to the crew aside from a few short scenes. Again, that doesn't mean no connection exists within the story world, it's just not something Oda chose to show us on panel.
There were a lot of odd writing choices on Wano, so it's of course not outside the realm of possibility Oda just chose not to develop those aspects of Yamato's character, but I guess we'll see.
The other factor here is now that Wano's borders are staying closed until later, we know that at some point the Straw Hats have to come back.
Which basically makes Wano Fishman Island 2.0. There's a lot of stuff still left unresolved on Wano... including the Kaido / Yamato / Ogre storyline. There wasn't any closure in Yamato and Kaido's final parting and I still think that will amount to something in the future. Oda chose not to delve into the Ogre stuff in depth in Kaido's flashback, maybe because he's not yet ready. But I have to imagine when it comes up again, Yamato will be involved.