Then Kylo went on to blow up more planets than Vader, so, you know, maybe he should have.
Arguably, Vader didn't blow up any planets since Alderaan was destroyed on Tarkin's orders (not that Vader objected or anything).
Then Kylo went on to blow up more planets than Vader, so, you know, maybe he should have.
Arguably, Vader didn't blow up any planets since Alderaan was destroyed on Tarkin's orders (not that Vader objected or anything).
So we are back to that endless discussion where no one is going to change their mind.
When older wider man told Luke to not help the nazi general that did not have any interest in being saved and blew a planet recently he refused to listen to reason and spend a shitload of energy tring to save him because supposedely underneath the genocidal monster there was a little bit of good and that's enough. Despite all this this working against him he managed to make it work.
Kylo came to Luke a broken kid that had been abandoned by everyone and looking for his uncle for help. He didn't just have good in him he wanted to be good. If the man could obsess over his genocidal father when smarter people thought he couldn't help I don't think he would have been less accepting of the family everyone thought he could help.
Also Kylo didn't almost kill another student forcing Luke to attack him or something. He sneeked into the kid's quarter when he was sleepting, scanned him to get justification and then lit and rose up his saber. Him not killing Kylo was an assasin changing his mind about killing his target not him coming back from a momentary lapse of jugement.
I guess the thing is I think his take from his experience with his dad was redemption is possible for pretty much everyone not maybe I was wrong to try saving him. Genocidal Vader had to be about to kill his family to make him waver while old Luke sneeked into a kid asking him for help room to see if maybe he should kill him.
I love the acting and what it does for Kylo's character. But I have no doubt it is OOC.
that guy was insanely wishwashy, whiny, hotheaded, and did the wrong thing at very nearly every turn, constantly disappointing his teachers and putting his friends in danger. He was very easily discouraged, and never truly completing his training.
Yep, and all of this is ok, because the OT is about the slow burn. Luke only manages to use the force at the very end of ANH, and struggles mightily when training with Yoda (too old), which extends to his fight with Vader, which he isn't prepared for. But Luke has to be a guy who goes to help his friends, Yoda and Obi Wan be damned! The Jedi teaching against this is what doomed the Jedi in the first place. His actions, even when they lead to failure, were redemptive in that way. I don't really remember him putting his friends in any more danger than they were in, so you'll have to remind me when that happened?
And, DESPITE his intentions to turn Vader, he lost sight of that goal multiple times and absolutely 100% would have killed Vader if the Emperor hadn't been there gloating and laughing and applauding to make him do a double check every time he got angry. Vader threatened Leia and Luke went ballistic on him. Luke cut off his hand even. That guy ABSOLUTELY would have have had a moment of being prepared to take out evil before thinking about it.
You can't remove Vader's actions from the emperor in ROTJ. I can just as easily make the argument that Vader would have turned to the light if the emperor wasn't there and neither of them have much support in actual canon. What is supported is the Epmeror's strength in the force and the pressure those around him feel. I think knowing about his power makes Luke resisting him when in the throws of anger more impressive and after just rewatching it, I don't buy that Luke would have killed him at any point. He gave into anger for a second about his sister, but calmed down. Still, this is opinion, because all we have is what happened. Luke is a jedi, like his father before him.
Also Kylo didn't almost kill another student forcing Luke to attack him or something.
Luke says he saw the darkness in him building during his training. We don't get specifics but that can mean there were a lot of warning signs. From him always being shouty and angry like Anakin, to being too brutal to his fellow students in practice to make snapping the necks of animals.. We don't know exactly what Luke considered a warning sign, but he saw it.
Luke's judgement was "he was going dark and was going to be a problem." And Luke was 100% right about that.
He wants to avoid another Vader. He lights his saber, and then immediately rethinks and regrets it and feels shame about it. Except then Kylo woke up and it was all downhill from then. (And then Kylo murdered all the other students and tried to become vader 2, and then blew up planets and murdered Han, so. Luke was 100% in the right on that account.)
I don't really remember him putting his friends in any more danger than they were in, so you'll have to remind me when that happened?
Lando had already secured their escape on Cloud City, Luke being there only meant they had to double back into danger to get him. And he even let R2 get nearly killed and was willing to brush that off as acceptable losses for no real reason.
And then in the next film his entire plan for freeing Han seemed to be "send every singe friend into Jabba's lair one by one." When Jabba was quite clearly willing to kill people. Or, turn Leia into a slave. You can argue for having R2 smuggle in the lightsaber, but beyond that?
Disappointed reading some of the reviews for Rise of Skywalker, but at least I know what to expect going into it and will hopefully still enjoy it.
This sequel trilogy has been messy as hell, but I feel like Star Wars in general has been that since the originals, so I have to tilt my head a bit at all the "Star Wars is RUINED" sentiment now. At least the new trilogy has some decent acting, directing, and dialogue that feels mostly human, which puts it above the prequels for me (which I think are over-hated as well, but still not exactly good films). It feels like Star Wars has pretty much always been "ruined" in everyone's eyes, and while I can understand wanting the films to be better or just different, the sheer amount of negativity surrounding these new films seems completely overblown to me. I appreciate enough of what the sequel trilogy was trying to give it a pass overall, even with my issues with it - though of course we'll see if I still feel that when I see this last one.
Luke says he saw the darkness in him building during his training. We don't get specifics but that can mean there were a lot of warning signs. From him always being shouty and angry like Anakin, to being too brutal to his fellow students in practice to make snapping the necks of animals.. We don't know exactly what Luke considered a warning sign, but he saw it.
My point was It wasn't a snap judgement from Luke in the heat of the moment. He weight the pros and cons and decided maybe killing him was the better option. Your description only emphasize that point.
Luke's judgement was "he was going dark and was going to be a problem." And Luke was 100% right about that.
Considering he gave a chance to a dark one that was already a big problem I don't think he would make that judgement. Especially with a child.
The kid turning bad because his uncle almost killed him doesnt mean there was no hope to begin with.
He wants to avoid another Vader.
There lies my problem. Others sees vader and they see the monster. Luke was the weirdo that didn't see Vader that way and it worked. Luke sees his father everyone had given up on and he was able to help. It's not trying to save Vader bit him in the ass. It proved his compassion was the right choice even with someone every thought was gone.
If he helped a full grown adult who was a lost cause didn't want help and had been doing doing atrocities for decades I don't see him be more harsh with a scared kid asking for help and had no one else.
By the way…..how is the whole Skywalker family going to rise? I mean, even if it means Kylo, he's that on his mother's side.
Really glad I didn't have any expectations for Disney and Star Wars. Helps they already lost and pissed me off even before FA came out.
@Johnny:
By the way…..how is the whole Skywalker family going to rise? I mean, even if it means Kylo, he's that on his mother's side.
Maybe Ray will learn to project the force like Green Lantern and use force shovels to dig them up.
My point was It wasn't a snap judgement from Luke in the heat of the moment. He weight the pros and cons and decided maybe killing him was the better option. Your description only emphasize that point.
Yes it was. He was concerned about it before going to Ben's room but it's pretry clear that before actually seeing what damage he would go on to bring, killing him was not the plan. It was literally "Oh my god this kid is going to kill billions! IGNITES SABER …Wait, what the hell am I doing?!"
I also thought it was pretty clearly explained that Snoke was secretly guiding the emotions of that moment, in order to facilitate the desired outcome. That +30 years of Luke living the reality of "glorious jedi hero who saved the galaxy from Sith Evil!", which could've easily informed his ego - hence, TLJ being all about Luke bitterly rejecting his status as a hero, until the end.
My point was It wasn't a snap judgement from Luke in the heat of the moment. He weight the pros and cons and decided maybe killing him was the better option. Your description only emphasize that point.
It was 100% a snap judgement. He had doubts, saw darkness creeping in, went in to take a closer look, then saw through the force the kid was going to kill billions, for half a second thought to stop it, and then scared and shamed himself. His INSTANT reaction was "no wait, I can still change him, this is wrong" but… Kylo woke up just then so...
If his ACTUAL intent had been premeditated murder, if he knew before entering the room that he was going to kill his student, Kylo would have had no chance.
Luke was the weirdo that didn't see Vader that way and it worked. Luke sees his father everyone had given up on and he was able to help. It's not trying to save Vader bit him in the ass. It proved his compassion was the right choice even with someone every thought was gone.
.
You're giving WAY more credit to Vader's turn than is actually deserved and far too much redemption. Vader opted not to watch his son be killed, and acted good for 10 seconds. He then proceeded to die immediately afterward. No punishment, no reparations, no apologies for killing Obi-wan or everyone on Alderan, or the years of suffering he heaped on others, or all the people that died during the battle while he was fighting Luke… .... just one good deed, that wipes clean his whole slate? It really doesn't. He didn't turn to the light side or prove he'd become better, he just proved he didn't actually want his son dead. Same dude had suggested to Luke they overthrow the Emporer and rule the galaxy together.
The special editions make it even worse since its Hayden Christiansen that becomes a force ghost and not old man Vader, which means those decades were effectively a different guy entirely. THAT guy didn't saved, the previous guy overtook him.
@Daz:
I also thought it was pretty clearly explained that Snoke was secretly guiding the emotions of that moment, in order to facilitate the desired outcome. That +30 years of Luke living the reality of "glorious jedi hero who saved the galaxy from Sith Evil!", which could've easily informed his ego - hence, TLJ being all about Luke bitterly rejecting his status as a hero, until the end.
I agree on the possibilty of him growing with hubris. But of a I made Hitler a good guy and can save everyone. He saw the signs but ignored them because he is awsome then Kylo killed the students, destroyed the temple and ran with a Dark lord. The shame of his hubris costing the lives of those in his care broke him and he also couldn't face Leia and Han and decided to become an hermit. I'm fine with Luke being broken and rejecting the idea of being a hero because of his shame with Kylo. I just disagree on the catalysm being consistant with the character.
Ending spoilers
! The ending could have been much better if instead of Rey pushing back Sidious lightning on her own, Luke, Leia, Anakin, Yoda, Obi-wan all showed up as force ghosts and helped her push back the lightning. We already saw Luke user the force as a force ghost so that should have been possible.
! Rey being able to defeat a fully restored Sidious just ruins the entire movie for me and also makes the accomplishments from the original triology obsolete.
! Also Sidious should have screamed UNLIMITED POWER when he blasted the rebel fleet :ninja:
It was 100% a snap judgement. He had doubts, saw darkness creeping in, went in to take a closer look, then saw through the force the kid was going to kill billions, for half a second thought to stop it, and then scared and shamed himself. His INSTANT reaction was "no wait, I can still change him, this is wrong" but… Kylo woke up just then so...
If his ACTUAL intent had been premeditated murder, if he knew before entering the room that he was going to kill his student, Kylo would have had no chance.
I think he went in a gray area not knowing what he should or what was the right thing because of signs he saw and that the reason he came to Kylo when he was asleep instead of in the morning was because he considered that one of the options would be doing something that would be harder if his nephew was awake to see him give up on him or see no hope in him.
Anyway I don't see Luke making that judgement snap or not after he succeeded with worst especially with someone asking help. And I don't see him initiating said killing instead of pushed into it. It was a sleeping kid. Maybe if Vader killed Leia in Retun of the Jedi to tarnish that victory but he just rewarded Luke stupid optimism.
I haven't read anything in the eu, so I'm only going off of Luke's character in the ot and tlj. And yes, it is absolutely out of character for Luke to try to MURDER his nephew over some bad think. Luke risked his life to try and save his friends in empire, but he wouldn't try to help his nephew? He goes straight to murder? No, I call bullshit. He lost his cool against vader when his sister was threatened, true. But it wasn't palpatine that brought him back from the edge of the dark side, it was himself. He realized how close he was to becoming just like vader and chose not to. He stared into that abyss and pulled himself out of it. All his whining and mistakes led up to return, where he finally became a true jedi at the end of the movie after fully rejecting the dark side. You can like the last jedi, that's fine. But don't sit there and tell me that Luke wasn't entirely out of character in that movie. I don't know or care about the reason they made Luke that way, it's the fact that they did that I can't stand.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
This is the closest thing to having convinced me to see it in theatres at some point. McDiarmid's Palpatine is one of the most joyful performances of all time.
I'm abivalent toward the sequel trilogy. I don't hate it, but I don't especially enjoy it either. But Ian coming back to do palps one last time is more than enough for me to put my butt in that theater seat one last time too.
Saw Episode 9 yesterday
! It was….alright, I guess? I had a good enough time watching it, it kept me entertained throughout. In general, I think J.J. did a servicable job of wrapping up this very flawed trilogy. But the problem is....most of the plot really didn't excite me. It left me lukewarm (no pun intended!) throughout. It's the exact opposite of Episode 8 in a way, and not just because it either ignores or outright goes against most of the themes, characters or plot developments introduced in that film. Episode 8 to me had a pretty bad plot (most of it consists of the slowest chase scene in movie history) and did a horrendous job being the second film in a trilogy, setting up nothing for the last film or even creating any momentum or much excitement for it. But it was willing to take a lot of risks, which I know ruffled many people's feathers, but made for many memorable, surprising and plain exciting moments. I can name at least 5 awesome moments from Episode 8 of the top of my head, and I haven't seen it in 2 years. Episode 9, on the other hand, does much better at actually doing its job, i.e. wrapping up this trilogy and the character's storylines. But it did without any strong standout moments, any surprises, anything that was bold or gave me goosebumps.
! Part of the blame does lie with Episode 8 because as I mentioned, it did a bad, bad job getting met excited for Episode 9. But it's still disheartening how few risks this film took. It's like someone at Disney said "Ok, please, we don't want another shitstorm like we got for Episode 8, please don't do anything too upsetting or unexpected!" And the result is just an entertaining, but really unexciting and predictable film. I don't think there were any major plot developments that I couldn't see coming.
! So, Rey is a Palpatine now. Saw it coming, seeing how much they hyped up her heritage again in this film. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I really wish they would have stuck with her parents being complete nobodies. Her being this powerful without coming from some major Jedi bloodline would have been much more interesting than this stupid plot of her being the Emperor's granddaughter and his major goal from the beginning being getting her on his side. Which just doesn't work because for not even one single second in this trilogy did I believe that Rey was seriously tempted by the Dark Side. I don't know if I should blame Daisy Ridley, but if I had to describe Rey's character, the adjectives earnest and plucky come to mind and that's basically it. She's a bit conflicted about her heritage, sure, but I just never bought that there was any danger of her joining the Dark Side at any point.
! The Emperor himself....ugh. His presence was good, but his part in the story made no sense and felt super-shoehorned in. It's clear as day that they brought him back because they realized they didn't really have a threatening villain, since it was just as clear that Kylo Ren would find redemption sooner or later. That's another part that was way too predictable. It's hard to buy him as the villain of the movie when it's just so clear that he'll turn to the Light Side sooner or later. I did think his and Rey's relationship was the most interesting part about this trilogy, but I wasn't fully on board with how it was finally resolved.
! Positives:
Finn and Poe had an awesome bromance going. I really enjoyed both characters a lot. In general, I think I prefer this trilogy over the prequels simply because I like the new characters and their chemistry more. Finn is probably my favorite, though I think his character had soooo much more potential after Episode 7.
! Chewbacca and C-3PO were both great. The latter in particular was on point as the film's comic relief.
! They did the best they could with Leia, imho. It was a little awkward at times, knowing the circumstances, but it worked for me for the most part.
! Seeing Lando again was a treat, though he didn't do that much. Rose was such a non-character in this movie in comparison to Episode 8 that I felt it was almost insulting to the actress. Oh and it was great seeing Charlie from Lost again. It's been a while mate , how's Driveshaft doing?
! Only time will tell which film I liked more, Episode 8 or 9. Episode 7 is definitely my favorite of the sequel trilogy. I don't care if it simply rehashed the plot of A New Hope, at least it managed to make me super excited for Star Wars again, which the other two parts of the trilogy didn't accomplish at all. It's crystal clear though that they should have planned this trilogy out better from the beginning, no doubt about that. I'd blame Kathleen Kennedy, personally.
Saw episode 9 last night
! I disliked the Last Jedi but man, it looks like a masterpiece compared to this absolute mess.
! The plot is all over the place, the action is disjointed, the dialogue is atrocious.
! It veers from asspull to asspull, invalidating things from other star wars movies and even turning back on the narrative it itself has set up.
! It's genuinely some of the laziest writing I have ever seen in a movie, never mind one that's meant to cap off a trilogy and a trilogy of trilogies simultaneously.
! So when all the smoke has cleared, what has the new trilogy really achieved story wise?
! Pretty much nothing.
! We're exactly were we were after ROTJ, but now all of Anakin and Luke's achievements/belongings/legacy belong to Rey.
! Maybe it's just me, but that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I was hoping for out of this new trilogy.
Saw episode 9 last night
Was Palpatine good at least? That's why I'm going to see it, and I wanna know if I'm gonna get anything at all from the movie.
@The:
Was Palpatine good at least? That's why I'm going to see it, and I wanna know if I'm gonna get anything at all from the movie.
If you're going for Palpatine then you're not going to have a good time.
I'm also a big Palpatine fan and I felt like this movie absolutely butchered him tbh.
If you're going for Palpatine then you're not going to have a good time.
I'm also a big Palpatine fan and I felt like this movie absolutely butchered him tbh.
Awwwww shit. Well, thanks for telling me at least. Was Ian's performance solid? I'll take even that to be honest.
@The:
Awwwww shit. Well, thanks for telling me at least. Was Ian's performance solid? I'll take even that to be honest.
He does the best he can with what he's given
However, the stuff they have him saying is just…sigh.
He does the best he can with what he's given
However, the stuff they have him saying is just…sigh.
Ugh. I'll save my final judgement until after I actually see the movie, but this might put me into the anti disney star wars camp. Unfortunate since tfa wasn't horrible. But at least I'll always have the ot and prequels.
@The:
Ugh. I'll save my final judgement until after I actually see the movie, but this might put me into the anti disney star wars camp. Unfortunate since tfa wasn't horrible. But at least I'll always have the ot and prequels.
I enjoyed TFA quite a bit, even if I disagreed with some of the choices made
TLJ I disliked because I felt like it was lazy and didn't really take into account the OT, PT or TFA as well as seemingly having a weird political agenda behind it
This newest installment is just awful on a new scale though.
I enjoyed TFA quite a bit, even if I disagreed with some of the choices made
TLJ I disliked because I felt like it was lazy and didn't really take into account the OT, PT or TFA as well as seemingly having a weird political agenda behind it
This newest installment is just awful on a new scale though.
TFA's biggest weaknesses are being too derivative of a new hope, and rey's mary sue qualities being at their worst, in my opinion at least. Hardly awful, and not as bad as a lot of people made it out to be. TLJ is…something else. I can't get over how Luke was treated in that movie. Simple as that. I didn't have high hopes for tros...but maybe it'll be worse than I thought. Is there anything you did like about tros though? Even something small?
@The:
TFA's biggest weaknesses are being too derivative of a new hope, and rey's mary sue qualities being at their worst, in my opinion at least. Hardly awful, and not as bad as a lot of people made it out to be. TLJ is…something else. I can't get over how Luke was treated in that movie. Simple as that. I didn't have high hopes for tros...but maybe it'll be worse than I thought. Is there anything you did like about tros though? Even something small?
The new trio are actually together in this movie which is nice and I did like
There are some good ideas buried in there but I feel like they get overridden by poor execution or dialogue
I can't really say much more without spoilers
The new trio are actually together in this movie which is nice and I did like
There are some good ideas buried in there but I feel like they get overridden by poor execution or dialogue
I can't really say much more without spoilers
Cool, cool. It's pretty much what I was expecting then. I hope they manage to do Leia justice in honor of Carrie. Can't believe I forgot to mention her as a reason I wanna see this movie.
@The:
Is there anything you did like about tros though? Even something small?
Babu Frik is the best part of the movie
I heard is the fan-service fest that it was supposed to be.
And I´m like yeah, what else could they aim for at at this point.
(And then Kylo murdered all the other students and tried to become vader 2, and then blew up planets and murdered Han, so. Luke was 100% in the right on that account.)
From what I heard, recent comics have revealed Kylo didn't actually murder the other students. The other stuff still applies as far as I know.
I saw it yesterday, dropping some thoughts:
! Another spoiler warning, just in case
! >! Stardestroying Stardestroyers.
! This movie has too much to handle, because it has to ignore it's predecessor. Right from the beginning we get an insane scene stakkato. Doesn't help that many of them remind you of previous SW-movies (Speeder race in a desert canyon, the whole Chewie rescue).
! So you just eat up those plot-points like junk food, except the slower scenes with Kylo and Rey, which are great. Too many fucking characters competing for screentime and the final battle is so scripted by the rule-of-finale book it hurts physically.
! Also, no Kylo force ghost at the end, really? Effing Vader got in and they even ignore their own mother/son redemption thing? This movie copied so many of the SW lore, but when it fits the most I just see two Skywalkers who can use the force…
From what I heard, recent comics have revealed Kylo didn't actually murder the other students. The other stuff still applies as far as I know.
Outside media doesn't count. Even if its sanctioned as canon. What's in the movies themselves are the only things that matter to the movies. Just like you can't look at the Harry Potter films and their gaping plotholes and just go "well, the books explained this so its okay" or look at the Abrams Star Trek movies and go "well, the comics made the villain interesting…" . It either holds on its own or it doesn't.
Even if the clone wars tv show did a lot to help RotS retroactively.
Considering how fanservices this trilogy been really surprised thqt Luke, Leia and Han didn't appear together on screen once.
Well TFA is officially my favorite of this Trilogy
So I saw the movie:
1-I liked it and enjoyed the theater experienced.
2-The title scroll really sets you up. You are either in and you out. Also whoever said Kylo's mask is a good metaphor for that trilogy is right.
3- I kind of forgot how much I liked the Vader music. March of the emperor? I think it's called. Also One of the music cue reminds me the fat Monica dance song
4- I enjoyed some of the humor. Mostly during the first part and one resistance guy. Also C3P0
5- The resistance vs the first order feel like a bunch of samurai fighting a moder army armed with Ak-47 in a open and leveled battlefield. They have no chance.
5- There's a new guy. I like him.
6- At a very specific moment it feels like Rey unlocked God mode of a video game. And i dont mean she has accelerate growth but more when you put the code and suddenly all your stats went up.
7- I think to like this movie you either have to be a fie hard star wars fan I love 99% star wars content, breath strar wars, I want more lore and like all the movies or be super ultracasual about it I check it because it's an event and one week later I have mostly moved on. I'm of the second category. It reminds me GOT s8. If I was slightly more invest in that trilogy I feel I would have been mad at this movie but as a casual watching experience it was nice.
! I like the idea of Leia as Rey's master and also that she had legit jedi training. And good on her for turning into force ghost.
! I really like the moment between Kylo and his dad.
! Finn is a real lady's man. He seems to have thing with Rose, Rey and that chick.
! That resistance guy that had to be optimistic I like.
! I really like that new first order guy. Kinds of remind me Tarkin and it's nice to have someone I can respect in the first order. The Hux twist was funny and surpising in a good way and his comment about the bit about the mask was funny.
! I have no idea why Kylo would repair the mask but I like the design with the cracks.
! What's up with that force power of we can talk and interract for real. It was trippy in a I don't think you should go there territory. Picking up her neckless for real or light saber battle should not be a thing in that mode. I remember spending way too long wondering if Kylo was on that death star or not.
! I dont know if JJ wanted Rey to be a Skywalker at first than changed it to Palpatine while finding some eleborate to end where he wanted. But I'm certain Palpatine was not planned to be in this movie. I do believe the plot was basically the same but more of legacy of Palpatine instead of the guy was pulling the strings all along.
! I'm pretty Kylo would just try to kill Palpatine then and there instead of following his orders. And as supreme leader I would expect him not to do so much grunt work.
! Wayfinder is a stupid name and I gave zero fucks about the light saber fights in this one.
! I liked the moment Kylo and Rey had after Leia died. But it's mostly rooted in TLJ that made me care for that relation. Leia's death was weird. As in it kind of felt like she was getting her morning coffee and remembered she had a meeting planned at 9h and had to get to the car. This should have been the first time Rey and Lylo meet in order to give it the gravitas it deserved.
! The third act is really weird like I'm writing a fanfiction where my heroes are more awesome than they ever where and Luke can crush a planet with his mind level of weird.
! I'm not sure why killing Rey and Kylo wasn't the first plan of Palpatine (I think it's because he's a late addition) or why one moment it's not good for Rey to kill her but the next it is.
! I don't give a damn how cool laser swords are. The moment you invented that fleet whoever controlled it won. Whoever has it is the winner. I don't care how they pretend there's still hope and wathever the resistance did matter. The moment you showed a full fleet of planet destrying spaceship you lost me on the resistance actually being scrappy guys that defeat the giant and landed in
! Does Lando has a random daugther?
I think JJ loves Star Wars too much to write for it. He can definitely assist but dont give him control. It reminds how everyone once in a while there will be someone wrting Batman or another superhero that is so important to them that they make them too awesome for the good of the story or character.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
The las Jedi is still the only movie in this trilogy I think is worth existing.
Woo, Bob's been working on this one for like a year and some change. Finally!
Woo, Bob's been working on this one for like a year and some change. Finally!
I've been debating whether or not to watch this. I really liked his takes on the raimi spiderman movies, is this one worth the watch as well?
@The:
I've been debating whether or not to watch this. I really liked his takes on the raimi spiderman movies, is this one worth the watch as well?
Yeah, its good, like most of his stuff is. It IS long though so maybe have it as background rather than a main focus.
Yeah, its good, like most of his stuff is. It IS long though so maybe have it as background rather than a main focus.
I have a lot of free time, but I'll probably still have to watch it in chunks. I'll definitely give it a watch though, thanks.
If people want more, good Star Wars content
Snoooooooooke!
The subject of the video? Extremely not good. The video itself, covering said subject matter? Very entertaining.
So with a few days of reflecting…
-This is easily the weakest of the sequel trilogy.
-This is easily the weakest of the three "finale" movies we've gotten for Star Wars.
-This movie backpedals so hard on the previous movie that it renders the whole trilogy feeling utterly incoherent.
-On my list of best to worst Star Wars movies, this one would probably rank... third from the bottom. By sheer virtue of the fact that it is still more consistently entertaining than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones were. (Though I actually kinda-sorta like parts of TPM.)
This movie was not good. But oh well. At least I've been saying for the past two years that TLJ honestly left very little for this one to work with, so… it's pretty much entirely possible for me to just treat TLJ as the end, even if it did end with the heroes having suffered a blow so severe it seemed impossible to recover from. This movie does such a piss-poor job of following up on any significant developments that happened in TLJ it barely even makes sense as a sequel to it in the first place.
So, basically, Disney bought Star Wars from George Lucas and then let a bunch of directors fight over it like a new toy until they broke it.
I agree on the possibilty of him growing with hubris. But of a I made Hitler a good guy and can save everyone. He saw the signs but ignored them because he is awsome then Kylo killed the students, destroyed the temple and ran with a Dark lord. The shame of his hubris costing the lives of those in his care broke him and he also couldn't face Leia and Han and decided to become an hermit. I'm fine with Luke being broken and rejecting the idea of being a hero because of his shame with Kylo. I just disagree on the catalysm being consistant with the character.
I can get your angle too, but the overall attitude on Luke in last Jedi seems to rely on whether you consider character development permanent, instant lessons, or allow room for backsliding or more erratic growth.
Or as Rian Johnson himself put it:
I understand that point of view but I completely disagree with it. In fact I think it disrespects the character of Luke by treating him not as a true mythic hero overcoming recurring wounds & flaws, but as a video game character who has achieved a binary, permanent power-up.
Depending on the context I don't necessarily mind, or even desire the instant/permanent character development. Often reneging on said development feel like a cynical and jarring resetting of the status quo, or like writers plain not giving a shit, like in Futurama where every other episode had Fry and Leela in love, then not. But if you make the re-emergence of character flaws your main point, and spend the time to dig down and wrestle with them in order to put a new perspective on the character, and not just retcon Spiderman into a destitute bachelor again…then I feel it can be worthwhile. And in this case, I felt a momentary re-emergence of an old character flaw was well worth it for the story TLJ told about Luke
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Speaking of Luke, I'm hearing some crazy shit about how tROS treats him; feel free to spoil me, is it true that
! his force ghost goes absolutely God Mode on the villains in the final act? Because yeeeesh, way to shit over every theme of Last Jedi
I didn't really care for Luke turning out like he did in TLJ at the beginning, but I do think that type of character was well done in the movies itself, and Hamill played that role excellently. The scene with Luke at the end was also one of the best ways for Luke to go out and arguably one of my favorite scenes in the series.
@Daz:
I can get your angle too, but the overall attitude on Luke in last Jedi seems to rely on whether you consider character development permanent, instant lessons, or allow room for backsliding or more erratic growth.
Or as Rian Johnson himself put it:
Depending on the context I don't necessarily mind, or even desire the instant/permanent character development. Often reneging on said development feel like a cynical and jarring resetting of the status quo, or like writers plain not giving a shit, like in Futurama where every other episode had Fry and Leela in love, then not. But if you make the re-emergence of character flaws your main point, and spend the time to dig down and wrestle with them in order to put a new perspective on the character, and not just retcon Spiderman into a destitute bachelor again…then I feel it can be worthwhile. And in this case, I felt a momentary re-emergence of an old character flaw was well worth it for the story TLJ told about Luke
! I think it's a valind point but it only works if your chracter is making the next mistake. Like Aang being an absentee because he wants his culture back. It's not making someone forget his development but instead exploring the flaws that were left in the characters. To make a flkaw it hasd to be rooted in something where you can go I see why he took that direction. Which is why I mention I would be on board if Leia or Han died from Vader because he didnt want to kill him. Thgis just felt like adding a flaw because you can.
! I mean I think learning to not cling to the old teaching from Yoda is enough to tell me its your classic your hero forget the lesson because he has to relearn so the audience can go awww or shed a tear. Yoda was super not the guy that understood that the old way that were perfect and Luke never cared much about the jedi rules(because he wasn't raised on them not because he's awesome) which is why he had that different perspective. The movie just goes for the awesome master Yoda and confused Luke because it's the characteristics people remember from the movies not so much because it fits their development or why the chracters were who they were.
! I dont think Luke learn something he didnt know by this action. The message should be you are not the messiah or a god which pass by him failing Kylo and is something I like. It's the people can be reedeemed and don't cling that feels like rehashes that are weird for Luke to have to learn.
Luke treatment in TLJ is fine in regard to the movie. To me it's the only movie that understood it's subject matter was the Rey Poe and Fynn. So Luke making that mistake isn't so much about Luke development which is not the focus of this trilogy was actually but instead to further the narrative and add more depth to Kylo someone who the triloggy does focus about. Also I think it is one of the best acting of this trilogy and I like the device of seeing it 3 times each time slightly alter by the perspective of the person telling it. It is a really good scene and an interesting development.
Speaking of Luke, I'm hearing some crazy shit about how tROS treats him; feel free to spoil me, is it true that
! his force ghost goes absolutely God Mode on the villains in the final act? Because yeeeesh, way to shit over every theme of Last Jedi
! Not really. He does something really similar to one of Yoda's own move in the original trilogy and it's to help rey. nothing to do with the villains.
There is a chracter which that description fit and that's
! Palpatine zapping dozens spaceship with giant lighting blasts.
This movie was not good. But oh well. At least I've been saying for the past two years that TLJ honestly left very little for this one to work with, so… it's pretty much entirely possible for me to just treat TLJ as the end, even if it did end with the heroes having suffered a blow so severe it seemed impossible to recover from. This movie does such a piss-poor job of following up on any significant developments that happened in TLJ it barely even makes sense as a sequel to it in the first place.
I've heard people say that a lot and find it super confusing? TLJ had some pretty strong threads worth following up on. Kylo's in control now, but not necessarily any more mature of a person, Rey's just been betrayed and learned that she hasn't inherited any particular destiny, Luke wiped the whole past history of the Jedi and new ones are appearing to be born. There are a lot of threads to pick up on, especially following the themes of breaking with tradition and maintaining balance between light and dark. In my mind it was leading to an ending where Rey realizes she has to fight for balance and break the cycle
Like here's a fanfic scenario building off of it:
[hide]Like what if Kylo's failures as a leader leads to a rebel victory that comes a little too easy. The Jedi are returning, too, and Rey - being fairly neutral between light and dark - realizes that the balance is being thrown off. Seeds of evil, such as troops getting overzealous of their victory over the First Order, are spreading and she can already see the dark in this bright light. The young new Jedi emerge and need guidance, and Rey takes them in but is soon confronted with the chilling thought that they might turn their new power to evil and is suddenly thinking back to the story of Kylo and Luke. Seeing the unbalanced world around her, and reflecting on Luke's wisdom, she's determined to put an end to the cycle once and for all. She decides to seek out Kylo, who's in hiding on the Jedi planet from a vengeful rebel army and going through his own parallel realizations about light, dark and the force after being driven mad from his fundamental will to survive. Rey tracks Kylo down using the psychic link they share and they confront each other, with Kylo lashing out in self-defense and Rey trying to pin him so they can talk and she can begin to make things right.
Meanwhile, Poe is taking charge among the rebels, trying to vindicate himself of his recent failures, but Finn can't abide it since he knows that most of the enemy are people just like him, each with the capability for good. Rose agrees and they leave together and start building a resistance with defectors and former First Order soldiers. Sides are switching and history threatens to repeat itself. The conflict between Rey and Kylo reaches its climax, when the force ghosts of past characters manifest and let them know there is a way out of the cycle. If they reject the force, then they can free civilization from its cycle, but they must both reject it (being the strongest representatives of the light and dark side's powers), or they will plunge the galaxy into a long dark age of imbalance (which is where things look like they're going with the current escalating conflicts). They're locked in a tense prisoner's dilemma, while brutal war begins to ignite in the galaxy around them. It looks like Kylo's going to doom everyone by not rejecting his power. Vader and Luke try to appeal to him, but though their efforts are heartfelt, they ultimately fail. The only one with the power to convince Kylo in the end is Rey, the one unshackled from destiny. She knows well the pain destiny has caused Kylo and convinces him that together they can help create the universe where no one is forced to kill by these arbitrary whims of good and evil.
Kylo and Rey do what they need to do to destroy the force (maybe they blow up some cool crystals or something) and leave the planet to find the galaxy is already at war. For a moment, they think they're too late and they wonder if they can even stop the conflict without their cool powers, but they convince each other to press on. The battle is starting to get rough, and Poe and Finn are both beginning to get disillusioned from it, forgetting who is on the side of good anymore. They both wish to reconcile, but the fires of war have been stoked and the soldiers won't back down. That's when Rey and Kylo return, hand in hand, shocking people on both sides into a standstill. This gives the combatants on both sides the time to realize how pointless their conflict is, and how much it's hurt them. Both sides lay down their arms, and they work out peace. Some time in the future, we see the results of their peace. The former First Order soldiers are working to rebuild the damage their brutality has caused under the terms of the peace treaty. Peace is uneasy and complex to maintain, but the heroes are each working as hard as they can, of their own will and responsibility, to ensure that the conflict they survived would truly be the last star war. Roll credits.[/hide]
Okay I mostly just had fun writing fanfic here, but all this to say that I think TLJ left plenty to work with to make a satisfying conclusion.
Should’ve gotten Martin Scorcese to direct Episode IX.