Hi, I'm back to the thread! Time to discuss all these new nakama candidates and info and… oh, it's about Pedro's death again. Nevermind.
@Robby:
If the audience is supposed to take a character's death as a tragic turning point, then the audience ALSO has to believe that character is dead. Look at Franky's mentor Tom. He might actually still be alive and in Impel Down somewhere. But we haven't seen him, we don't know, so we have to believe he actually is dead, as he is to Franky.
Not the best way to start your post saying that we don't have a way to prove that Tom is alive but buying it because of the narrative and the belief of a character.
Knowing they're alive undercuts any long term change for the reader. It changes the entire tone and meaning from "permanent sacrifice" to "temporary sadness with a happy ending", and its WHY people are so annoyed with Oda's nodeath policy, because it gets in the way of their sense of disbelief, while also weakening the villains and lessening the achievements of the heroes. As it did with all of Vivi's friends, and it just leads to the reader wanting to know when they meet up again.
That's perfectly true.
But this feeling, when the character being alive is not confirmed, is unintended by the author and the storytelling. It's artificial. Oda fakes out deaths because he wants us to believe that a certain character is dead, not because he wants you to be the smartest in the room and figure out that it's alive.
Yes, but the READERS do. We have to understand the author. That overrides anything the characters might want or do, and adds that layer to anything they say. The author puts words in their mouths and actions in their bodies. If the author doesn't kill, then the author doesn't kill, and that affects the emotions you have in response to any scenario and what you ultimately expect the outcome to be.
But Oda DOES kill. At this point, as much or even more as he's faked deaths. That's why there is uncertainty to whether a character is dead or not. If he didn't kill, we would know for certain that Pedro is alive. But then you have Ace, Whitebeard, the flashback deaths…
It's like people keep asking the question "well why would Oda just put this extra character in the middle of things?" and completely ignore the legitimate answer of "because Oda likes having large casts and new people for the strawhats to play off of." ANd they then have to stick with "No, it's because Carrot is special"and then ignore the Jonny and Yosakus and Hancocks and Bon Clays and Paulies and Wipers that were the same exact thing. That is NOT the reason, because she is not an independent sentient creature.
This is so dumb I can't believe I'm reading it from a person with a brain.
No, Oda doesn't just like having large casts and new people for the Straw Hats to play off of. What a disrespect to an author that gives a backstory and a set of motivations to a random noble girl in Water 7 (best girl actually). Every character there is fleshed out with motivations to be there, they weren't just for Oda or the readers having fun with a large cast. Even Johnny and Yosaku who ended up in the ship by chance were impacted by the SHs and the adventure and shifted their life decisions accordingly.
If you must go to instory character reactions, Vivi saw Igaram die. In almost the exact same circumstances. And then Pell. It pushed her some but she still got them back in the end and it didn't completely change her life's course.
Vivi saw a ship get blown up. Carrot saw Pedro get blown up. There's a little difference. Pell is actually the valid counterexample here, and even then he just flew away much further than Pedro was from Carrot the moment of the explosion.
And neither Igaram nor Pell changed a bit of Vivi's motivations with their (fake) deaths. Not that this is a definitive sign, but you know, I wanted to point it out because if we are dealing with significance the significance of these deaths for Vivi's character arc is more sadness and suffering through her chase of an objective that is already set. At least Pagaya "dying" had to change something in Conis' mind to go badass in the sky island.
Same way as Pekoms I'd imagine. Or Pound, King Baum, Jinbe and all the fishmen, or the Vinsmokes.
Uh, King Baum is probably alive by the mere fact he already survived being cut in half. The biology of Big Mom's souls is kinda sorta fishy.
Pekoms is in the same island as the Vinsmokes, Jinbe and all the fishmen. They could all survive together or they could all die together.
Pound is not expected to be alive. You are grouping him here for some reason I don't understand. He was a nobody to everyone in there except a 1-year-old, nobody cared for his survival, and certainly not Oven.
Pedro is in another island which is Big Mom's core territory, which takes like 10 hours (I don't recall how much it was so let's say that) to reach in a sea infested with enemies and in chapter 903 we already saw that Big Mom and at least a few of his family were in that island. In addition to this, we know that a couple enemies could check the area. Perospero himself when he emerged from the smoke and was the closest to Pedro, and Prometheus (subsequently Zeus) when he went there to eat the fire. The chances of Pedro being alive are already slim, the chances of him getting out of the island rely on him either being perfectly capable, which the narrative hasn't hinted the least to, or Caesar somehow feeling empathy and saving him in a perfectly out of character way.
How did Prospero survive the blast that specifically meant to take him out with only a wound that he was able to ignore with no real problem for the entire night?
He specifically mentions "candy armor".
And losing an arm resulted in a loss of blood that resulted in a loss of stamina. That was seen later in the arc. That it took so long for him to notice the effects speaks wonders about his durability, he's a veteran after all.
Vivi went all of Little Garden, Drum, and Alabasta thinking Igaram was dead. It didn't make her any more a strawhat in the end. Franky thought his entire family died on Enies Lobby. Luffy thought Sabo was dead for a decade and still thinks Bon is dead. Did it matter that Luffy didn't know his bounty had been raised when the readers already did? Did it matter that Luffy never actually got the indepth flashbacks we readers got to see for Nami or Jinbe or Law or for the history of Skypeia, when that information was their for our emotional hook and benefit?
Are you denying anything of the phrase you quoted? Because it doesn't seem so…
Yeah, fake deaths can have narrative and emotional significance. They can change people and move them forward.
Does it matter that Carrots flashback with Pedro was two panels long and done after the fact to try and add attachment and weight that wasn't there before the scene? When Oda had dozens of chapters to create a bond between the two and didn't do it except as an afterthought?
Uh… just because the attachment and weight wasn't there doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it hadn't been shown to us.
When you have a flashback that specifically tells you that Pedro had a mentoring relationship with Carrot, when you later have statements like "Pedro trained me for Sulong", and etc. you are supposed to believe that there is an attachment. That's what the story is saying, and it doesn't matter that it didn't say anything before, except perhaps it hinted in a couple moments, but let's ignore that little thing.
It DOESN'T MATTER for the actual overall story what the characters think, when its about what the audience knows, and how the author tells the story and what he shows us It only really matters what the characters think when they make a wrong choice based on bad information… and that's usually something the audience already knows as well, like when Luffy initially ignored Ace's fading vivre card, or when Sabo led the blackbeard pirates back to his base.
Seriously what the fuck am I reading xD
It DOES MATTER for the actual overall story what the characters think. Stop ignoring diegesis in the construction of a storyline. This is such a dumb argument. Luffy's belief that Bon Clay was dead, even if he wasn't dead, had an effect in the course of the story. It reaffirmed his will. Luffy's belief that Sabo was dead, even if he wasn't dead, had an effect in his life decisions and therefore in the overall story.
Character motivation is important for feeling for the characters, or getting behind them, but it's not the same thing as overall narrative and the story the author is telling. The author and how they work, and have consistently worked for over 20 years, is more important than how any character feels.
IT'S THE SAME THING. IT'S PART OF THE OVERALL NARRATIVE. MOTIVATIONS LEAD TO DECISIONS AND DECISIONS LEAD TO ADVANCEMENT OF THE PLOT.
I don't believe what I'm reading. That's beyond death of the author. That's death of the narrative you are claiming here.
Because, I was there back when Igaram, Pell, Pagaya and Bellamy fake outs weren't the norm. At the point in the series Oda DID have the stones to actually kill characters, they really were actually DEAD and you could believe it at that point.
Merry ended up alive long before all of them. So did Gin.
It's fine that you were back there, but your nostalgia glasses are clouding your visions. Fakeout deaths were a thing long before Igaram and Pell, and Oda DIDN'T show to have the stones to actually kill characters beyond flashbacks if that's what you are basing your statements on. Is Pudding Pudding even confirmed dead by the story?
At that time, he still wrote as if he were actually killing them, and the emotions actually rang true. Before he changed his entire mindset so consistently based on the target audience and started making every pull back a fake out. But flashback deaths he still made feel potent every single time… except for Sabo's. Sabo he completely failed to put any real setup or emotion into... because it was a fakeout. He had Luffy and Ace cry for a couple panels after that, but he didn't milk it quite the same way he did other deaths.
"So consistently"
Dude half of this "consistency" is the audience pulling an "Oda did it again" before we even get a confirmation about the character being either alive or dead. Specially lately, when people keep bringing the likes of Monet and Pedro under the assumption that Oda is following a trend. Since it's Oda, they need to be alive, and being alive confirms the trend. You know how this argument is called. It starts with "circular" and it ends with "reasoning".
Same thing goes for Monet in present day. Sure maybe she died, but then why did her own sister never say anything, why was there no real effect felt from it?
A bit problematic what you are trying here, since fake deaths can and at times do have a real effect (Sabo is the clearest). We didn't know about the psyche of Sugar either way or her viewpoints in life, so it's not like we got a fleshed out character and then could decide that Monet's death didn't affect her. And it's not like the death of her sister would excuse her from ignoring her duties anyway.
Because he had 50 years magicked away by someone, not because he actually felt old. Super easy to fix after Big Mom is dealt with in whatever fashion she is dealt with, however Oda feels like by whatever arbitrary undefined rules homies and life force have.
So you are basing your beliefs that Pedro is alive in the uncertainty of how homies work. Just because there is a mystery and an uncertainty doesn't make any alternative plausible, and doesn't give you a justification to believe that anything in however vast your imagination is can and will happen.
Super easy to fix, yeah. And that's why various alternatives have been debunked already. You can think of more, of course. That doesn't make it "super easy to fix", that just means that you can imagine scenarios with little to zero hinting. I can do that as well. For instance, we'll meet the stronger version of the time time fruit, one that allows to travel to the past, and Luffy will save Ace this time. Maybe there's a fruit out there that can take a corpse and revive it, not that Moriah thing, actually, making him come back perfectly alive and healthy. Maybe Ace wasn't completely dead in Marineford and surprised everybody in the journey towards his burial, they just built a grave to hide the fact he's alive (that's surprisingly close to these "Kuina is alive" theories). The Mera Mera fruit? An obvious fake created with a Smile. The Vivre Card is admittedly an issue, but maybe Oda can figure out whatever shit for that since this is the first time we actually saw that happening in the narrative.
Sure, but won't it be a happier party at the end if the character we all thought was dead, turns out to be alive and shows back up with Pekoms, and he gets to actually see that dream happen? That's a way happier celebration than one where you have to dwell even a little on the person that died.
It would be happier, yes. But not that much after all the SHs and Carrot already came to terms with his death. Would it be happier if Ace appeared in the middle of a party? Well yes of course, but they would still be partying anyway even without him. Pedro was mourned already and they accepted his death, and it certainly helped that they knew it was his intention. They are not going to be forever disturbed by it.
Where's the body? Where's the on-screen mortal wound? Explosions are worthless in one piece. They create big clouds of smoke and allow characters to, say, get pushed under the water and then float to the surface a little bit later under safety on a different island. And then maybe get taken in by someone that can treat them, or look at what happens to be a full moon and get energized.
Where's the body in so many of the flashback deaths you take for granted? Or in deaths that have no way to be reverted due to context like Pound's and Mr. 11's?
Ace's death was an exception. You are treating an exception as the norm and standard. Heck, even Whitebeard didn't die of an on-screen mortal wound. He died of multiple wounds all at the same time, none of them being what took his life alone.
"maybe get taken in by someone that can treat them"… King Baum, assuming he's alive, is your only plausible alternative in that space. Because I'm not counting Caesar.
Your assumption on the full moon is a good headcanon. Nowhere has been said that Sulong can heal a dying body, or that it has regenerative effects for that matter.
We ACTUALLY saw Ace die. Oda even made it extra clear with the vivre card. We ACTUALLY saw Whitebeard die. We saw graves for them later. We saw Going Merry burning.
….And Prospero tanking the exact same attack that was meant to take him out shows it wasn't THAT fatal.
Again, Perospero had a candy armor that was completely destroyed and on top of that the explosion took his arm off.
Anyway you are talking about the "we" too much. We, the audience, are not what dictate whether a statement is true or false. It's the author. We don't move the narrative.
That is the only actual difference. That is the reason I'm willing to agree that he's maybe actually dead, and that Oda actually wants us to really believe it, because he's treated it differenty after the fact.
But I will not be surprised in the least if he turns up fine after we deal with Big Mom again. Certainly not until we see what happened to Pekoms. There is pleeeeenty of wiggle room with Oda's logic of how characters survive whatever they need to survive.
Can't say I don't understand your sentiments here, but you understand that you are not really building a coherent argument here, right? It's "Oda's logic is so pffff so anything could happen lol". That's like saying nothing xD
Except it wasn't. They were still trapped for the next 20 chapters, and other characters, Pound, Pekoms, the fishmen, and vinsmokes all made similar stalling sacrifices (and Bon in past arcs) and none of them are dead. If his was the final sacrfice, THE thing that allowed THE escape, I'd agree. But it was just one stall among many, one sacrifice among many, and in the middle. Like it was to ramp up the tension, raise the stakes, rather than finish them.
I would agree with that, Pedro's death was diminished by the following events, or perhaps Oda didn't handle well the balance between making it enough of a significant turning point and showing that the yonkou threat couldn't be treated this lightly. If anything, his death was a motivational boost for the characters that further strengthened their will and effort to get out of there, that made Luffy make up his mind and take Katakuri with him so that the rest could escape safely, that made Jinbe interpret his sacrifice as a motivation to live on, that made Carrot want to be of help and go Sulong.
It makes the story sadder and more poigniant for right now to have him "officially dead", but does it add anything when its time to have the party at the end of the trail a few years down the line?
Depends on what the effect is in Carrot, who is the one character who is more likely to have a permanent effect in her personality attached to this event.
Sure, and if we see Carrot relaying the information to the other minks and them also mourning about it, and we find out what happened to Pekoms, then that probably settles it. But if it just sort of doesn't come up or gets glossed over in a sentence and we get one panel reactions and then move on?
There's still the narrative about the dawn of the minks and what Pedro meant to say to Carrot.
Then again you are not making an argument here. You are making a willd assumption. It's difficult to discuss these since you can make them go as wild as you want, the limit is your imagination.
Shanks is doomed and that one is going to stick for sure and be super sad.
Excuse me, I will try to stay quiet and not lose my temper here but… are you... for some reason... saying, implying or assuming that... a FUCKING FAN THEORY IS MORE CERTAIN TO YOU AND YOUR ARBITRARY BELIEF SYSTEM THAN AN ACTUAL DEATH DISPLAYED LIKE THAT BY THE NARRATIVE?
Allow me to heavy breath. I need to. At least you came with this at the end of the post so there's not much else to deal with.
But Oda's preferences override everything else. Even when it would be more satisfying and BETTER for the story in every regard for a character to die, Oda just has a really hard time with that. Heck, that's pretty much the entire reason Sabo exists, to lessen the blow of Ace which was one the story HAD to have, and Oda admits that Ace was literally created to die.
There's also the issue that in the New World we already have a track record of people's deaths Oda didn't care to undo. I don't know what it says about him, maybe he stopped caring because the fans would guess that they are alive anyway, but fact is, it's been almost six years since Monet and Vergo died in the narrative and he hasn't cared to bring any hint to whether they could be alive or not, even when the following arc focused on the Doflamily, even when Doflamingo has appeared a couple times later.
There is nothing about Pekoms being forever dead that changes the story any more than him being dead for a week does, and that's threshold enough for Oda. I don't want it to be the case, I'd prefer if he were dead because that raises stakes from here on out some, but… the same arc had dozens of other fake outs and Oda hasn't willingly let anyone stay dead any longer than the story absolutely demanded in decades.
I don't even believe that Pekoms is dead, considering that what the Charlotte army specifically aimed to do was gauging out his eyes.