In that case it's not a strawman, I just misinterpreted your argument.
But okay, I see we agree on almost everything so maybe I was lost in my own interpretation of what you wrote.
In that case it's not a strawman, I just misinterpreted your argument.
But okay, I see we agree on almost everything so maybe I was lost in my own interpretation of what you wrote.
You speak as if it's completely self-evident that Carrot will acknowledge as much when it isn't. Yes she has been forced to make these traumatic experiences which would naturally lead someone to this realization, but actually saying it out loud and admitting one's own weaknesses is still an additional step that not everybody would be willing to make. I wasn't saying that I expect her to not acknowledge it and just hop on board, nor do I think Carrot is tone-deaf, independent of her usual upbeat personality. I also wasn't questioning her strength to face the upcoming waters, I brought up the timeskip as an example of people thinking they can just waltz on without a worry in the world until people far stronger than them beat them back to the bottom of reason, which is pretty much what happened to Carrot. The Straw Hats realized that they need to step up their game and that there are many greater foes lurking ahead, and I want to see that same realization from Carrot if she is to join. I would absolutely hate if we just get a repeat of the end of Zou where she just emerges from within the Sunny but this time with a few more clothes on hand. Give her the development she very desperately needs.
Regarding other Straw Hats compared to whom Carrot is more prepared for fighting (namely the Coward Trio): Nami just got an upgrade which still had to make up for her own shortcomings by helping her hit the target, and Usopp and Chopper both should also have realized that they're falling behind again. I expect those three to get more powerups in the arcs before Laugh Tale. Meanwhile Sulong is still such a huge conditional powerup that Oda can't constantly write around, so this would need a solution as well.
The Vivi part is a strawman argument and I don't get the relevance
I say that because this point is framed in a way that Carrot, maybe for being how she is, needs to prove something that we assume most other characters go through eventually, when I don't find much of a grounded reason to doubt that she can 1. meet that bare minimum and 2. face things seriously. And I think this has to do with her personality, which is shared by a number of characters. So yes, it is a fair point you have here but I assume she will like everybody in the series has (this is also regardless of joining the crew or not). That's why I find it a bit moot.
The Vivi argument is relevant for the "bare minimum" part, and it's not a strawman, it's a statement on how in universe if somebody wanted to join the crew they wouldn't be checking their strength. Please do not start getting into dumb fallacy pointing because I intend to keep the discussion civil and those tactics are the worst for that.
If Carrot stows away or just hops on board at the end of Wano I'd like to see her acknowledge that she has learned the same lesson the Straw Hats learned the hard way on Sabaody, and in a way Usopp specifically in Water 7. Traveling across the New World is not the fun day trip she thought it would be and she paid dearly with the loss of a close friend. There is a certain minimum level of strength anyone who hopes to survive the latter half of the Grand Line should have without having to rely on either others to protect them, or powers that are bound to conditions they can't influence. That was the entire point of the timeskip, it wasn't just Luffy gaining the strength to protect his crewmates, but all of them bringing the bare minimum to the table. And even then you have to be fully aware of the risks and prepared to face them. It's serious business that can and will cost people lives.
They're not just playing pirates. Visiting other islands is not something you can just do with the knowledge you'll return home safe and sound. And for me personally, I need to see Carrot say as much before I accept her on board.
That's an absolutely fair point, but also a bit moot? Why should Carrot not acknowledge the seriousness of the situation when she has witnessed and suffered it, fought two yonkou armies and lost Pedro? I think people mistake a lively and fun-loving personality with being completely tone-deaf, and I don't think Carrot is written like that… Anymore, anyway. Maybe at the beginning of the journey toward WC and that made some sense. Also, she's a trained fighter, maybe we don't know how to put her on a power scale exactly and we can have doubts about that "bare minimum", but she's more thoroughly prepared than a number of SHs for fighting.
Speaking of the bare minimum though, I don't think it's a good argument even if there is a level of legitimate doubt on how she can perform. Because we don't know how much she can handle, and because Oda is not the kind of author that sets base levels perfectly at every point in the story. Basically when facing a strong opponent she would outperform herself like every character does, it doesn't make much sense to try and discuss whether she is "not strong enough" to join because in this series joining the crew is not a standard of strength. Reminder that Vivi left the crew because she wanted to stay as a princess for her country, not because she wasn't strong enough.
@Syphin I do not think there is one single type of "main character" in the series, as you yourself analyze, so this talk about being "uncharacteristic" doesn't tell me much. Fundamentally, Robin and Jinbe do not share the scheme other SHs had. But also, this talk is dynamic and depends on the status of the character at the moment. You could say that Robin was an important character, but even as part of the antagonist team, she was second to Crocodile all the time. She was that mysterious character that in a couple scenes had proved to be something more, but also the plot was: Crocodile did this, Crocodile did that, we must defeat Crocodile. Oda ended up getting those sporadic hints from Robin and using them to build a main character, but till she joined, she absolutely wasn't one and also wasn't narratively pointed to be.
Anyway, speaking of Carrot, Wano is clearly a low performance for her, so I remain quiet and hoping for better times to come . Your analysis is quite spot on in my opinion, at least for the current state and the clear detriment her side role in Wano is being, it's just that I find this "uncharacteristic of a main character" bit about her overall character arc a bit nebulous in a series that doesn't have one clear guideline on how to make a main character.
I think there is a lot of confusion between "what i'd like to happen" and "what i think it's going to happen".
There's no discussion to be had about "i'd like more if Carrot joined than if Yamato did", it's completely legitimate and doesn't need to be explained or "proved".
But once the discussion is about predicting what wil happen anybody partaking in it should at least use elements from the text to uphold what they're sayin AND not ignore the counterarguments also based in the text others make.I for one never liked Jimbe joining the crew, for a long number of reasons. Also I never doubted he was going to join, because the story was clearly building up to that. At best i hoped it wouldn't happen, but i expected it to happen.
That's okay, I don't intend to discuss gut feeling and preference. But on the matter of prediction, we can interpret the text as a checklist or as just the natural flow of events and both can result in a viable candidate. Yamato is the strongest candidate right now, with the focus, the tragic past, the specific declarations and etc. But the scenario of Carrot jumping into the Sunny again and going "hey it's fun with you guys I want more adventure!" is still something one doesn't need a strong level of abstraction to visualize, no matter how many chapters she's been off focus, no matter how thin her overall character arc is. It happened before and there's a history of bonding and associating with the SHs. Like I often see this argument that Carrot is like Vivi because she's a temporary passenger and not an actual permanent crewmate. It may be true, but what is also true is that if Vivi wanted to join the crew again she would be accepted with no hesitation, because the character bonded with the SHs and spent time with them. We are at this point with Carrot. She could leave or she could stay, and you can't say it doesn't make sense or that she is not worthy as a candidate because she doesn't fill whatever random checklist.
Anyway, do not mistake stating my preferences with being skeptical of the thorough analytical (AKA "checklist") approach to next crewmate discussions. Those are two different statements, both I stand for but for very different reasons.
Heh, people tell me Yamato isn't that exciting, yet why do I see her being talked about more than Kinemon joining the crew?
As a resident Yamato skeptic I must say, I'm still absolutely 100% with the idea of Yamato joining if the alternative is Kinemon. Kinemon's lower half, on the other hand…
That's absolutely true in general, but it hardy applies to this conversation in my opinion.
I mean, i'd love to aknowledge the valid bases of "Yams won't join, Carrot will"… if those were ever provided.
I'm not especially enthusiast of Yamato Joining the crew, by the way. I'm just annoyed at the discussion never really going beyond "i dont't really aknowledge what the text of the story we're commenting is saying on this specific topic".For example, i don't believe Tama has any real chance of joining, but very good arguments were made in her favour, so that was worth discussing.
As i said, if Yamato ends up not joining, people won't have to just "accept" it happening, they'll discuss how and why that happened, and decide if they like it or not, and move on.
This bugged me a bit, because I think we all owe ourselves a certain amount of courtesy in debates and accept opinions and theories in a speculative thread without throwing personal burdens of proof. The validity of these arguments will be dictated by Oda when time's due.
When it comes to Yamato and Carrot I admit my gut feeling is with Carrot for very personal reasons… namely that I'm less than enthusiastic about Yamato's prospects in the story and what the character represents in terms of overloaded symbolic weight in a series that seems already far too down the rabbit hole (pun absolutely intended) in that sense lately. I'm also not finding myself much of a fan of the character and their dynamics. Meanwhile Carrot is fun and has good chemistry with the SHs, sometimes it's just that I ask for.
It would be absurd to deny how well-positioned Yamato is in this "career" but I feel it's also something that depending on where the wind blows can run against their chances, particularly because this strong start has since found drawbacks. The relationship with Momo, which was non-existent, now it's a burden that needs to be resolved. The responsibility with Wano, which was only assumed as part of their identity as Oden, is now something that seems more compromising. Not just due to this guardian deity fruit, which after the latest developments on Luffy's awakened fruit I can only grow suspicions of, but because the more the narrative with Yamato advances it becomes clearer that they feel they owe something to Wano, and that something may be key to the character leaving with the Straw Hats or assuming another role. Those elements were not clearly present at the beginning and have since been introduced. I would dare say that Yamato, remaining a clear candidate, has gone from 100% "of course joining is the only possible way" to "let's see how these issues are resolved in their mind and then we can talk about next crewmate status".
If there's one thing that I feel is a double-edged sword in Carrot's narrative is her simplicity. What Oda is doing with her is hurting her chances every single week and I'm aware of that, defending that she would join in Wano is absurd specially with Yamato in the spotlight. But essentially, due to how has the character been written, this also means that Carrot doesn't need much else to join. She is basically accepted in the crew already. Does she need a tragic past, an elaborate dream, any of those absolute canon aspects every SH has in a checklist for us to make sense of it? Perhaps. Or perhaps she can just hop in there again and just follow the mood as she has been already very closely associated with the Straw Hats. If something like this happens, it won't make sense in theory, but it will make absolute narrative sense. And I'm hoping it just doesn't happen like that because like with every character I want lore and depth and specific motivations, but by not giving her focus lately Oda hasn't resolved or undone the previous focus either and that's an essential aspect to still make sense of her joining.
And then we can talk about theories and hints, but this is where my feelings stand at this point. Not denying the chances of Yamato, but I think the way the character has been treated makes them joining a long and complex journey, much more than it's often stated. After so many chapters there has been barely interaction with members of the crew and we are just speculating about their role or their running gag without much narrative basis to stand for. We don't even know if Yamato makes sense inside the crew, if you know what I mean. Carrot? The contrary. Not much focus, thrown to the side for so many chapters one only wonders if Oda forgot about her xD, but put her among the SHs and we all know what she offers in terms of interaction and being part of the dynamics, and she absolutely makes sense inside the crew. If Yamato joins and Carrot doesn't, it will be true to the current development and storytelling focus, but if the contrary happens it will seem as natural as breathing. If both or none become crewmates, the One Piece community will implode
@.access:
I don't personally have a good image of that place - I rushed there during WCI to get more constant discussions fitting my hype levels at the moment, but I was instantly turned away when my first contact was a lot of users calling BM a whore because she had sex with different guys -, but I find this constant need of AP Forums to talk shit on OJ and put their users down on a clear attempt to make ourselves look better and more "elite" by comparison… well... unsightingly.
And it also kinda hypocritical as we are currently feeding on them to get SBS and Vivre Card translations.
Yep, I understand that, I feel the same to be honest when those kinds of tasteless comments are spread around. I felt way more attached to certain people than others in that community for a reason, I never felt the energy to participate regularly in games and community projects and my participation went on bursts.
I personally don't like elite attitudes, but I understand a desire of self-preservation in a basic level. If you don't want an OJ-like community in AP (I don't want it either) then of course you are free to express this concern. The problem arises when you are pointing at the users, a number of them being active on both sites, and treating them like some sort of plague in a basic lack of understanding of how communities work on the internet and how people can change and adapt their mannerisms to fit in different places. I don't write silly oneliners here joking about Zoro's powerlevel, for instance xD
All the Grand Fleet captains are a bunch of whackjobs anyway, so personality is hardly an issue. Lack of experience could be because all the others (except Ideo I guess) had some experience in a leadership position, but even that's only because they all had their crews when we met them. They all had to start somewhere. Most of them didn't really show any particular skill in terms of leadership. Nothing really stops Carrot from finding a bunch of like-minded minks and forming the New Nox Pirates or something, like Hajrudin did. And people might accept her as a leader because she's Pedro's disciple and has Sulong at such a young age, or because she's a ruler aide or whatever.
Nothing does, of course. It's just something I don't see clearly right now. But maybe, eh, though I think it would need some sort of development that would be nice to see unfold, like Carrot right now isn't even close to showing leadership. Perhaps precisely through Pedro's words and will.
@Long:
I wonder of Carrot being 15 lessens the chance of her being a grand fleet captain
Uhm… I don't think so. But it doesn't increase them either, it's more like it puts emphasis on something I already had issues with. She is not fit for that kind of role because she's immature and inexperienced and there's not much on the idea of her becoming a leader of a crew in the short term. A short age (which honestly wasn't really unexpected though I would have gone with 16-17 maybe, something more normal in the OP world) fits her personality but it was her personality in the first place what didn't make her a good fit for that role for starters.
Also agreed, poor Jinbe is not dying. He will brag about dying till the end of his days... probably in his retirement home in Neo Sabaody, 60 years from now.
Wow. This is going to be a slow motion train wreck of miserable racists.
I kind of look forward to it.
Uh, I just stumbled upon these sorts in a film group I follow in Facebook this morning. Plenty of yikes looking at that post and the comments. Like I can get this shit coming from edgy teens and trolls but these were all grown up Serious Film Fans and ugh.
It was painful. I don't recommend.