I'm not familiar at all with the plot of GT. I read snippets about it and saw episodes here and there. It just seemed super wonky.
Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
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I think some of the base ideas are quite good. Spoilers if you haven't seen it, I guess.
In the first arc Goku is turned into a kid by a corrupt dragon and they have to travel the universe to get the Dragon Balls back to turn him back normal. This technically lasts the whole series, but the first 16 or so episodes are just weekly adventures.
Then a Tsufurujin looking for revenge on the Saiyans shows up, which is really interesting considering the relationship between the two races.
I think what's done with 17 is the least interesting. They basically turn him evil again. This is also the part I remember least about.
The final arc is about combatting Dragons born out of too much usage of the DBs. The DBs corrupt and create 7 dragons.
On paper this sounds like a really fun/interesting series, but by some miracle it's just really boring to me. I think these are some really good concepts to reboot, though. Just like Broly and Gogeta, they are ideas that have a lot of room for expansion and reinterpretation.
So if they are gonna bring something back again, I think GT stuff would be a very good idea. Too bad GT isn't a cashcow like Broly is.
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I think some of the base ideas are quite good. Spoilers if you haven't seen it, I guess.
In the first arc Goku is turned into a kid by a corrupt dragon and they have to travel the universe to get the Dragon Balls back to turn him back normal. This technically lasts the whole series, but the first 16 or so episodes are just weekly adventures.
Then a Tsufurujin looking for revenge on the Saiyans shows up, which is really interesting considering the relationship between the two races.
I think what's done with 17 is the least interesting. They basically turn him evil again. This is also the part I remember least about.
The final arc is about combatting Dragons born out of too much usage of the DBs. The DBs corrupt and create 7 dragons.
On paper this sounds like a really fun/interesting series, but by some miracle it's just really boring to me. I think these are some really good concepts to reboot, though. Just like Broly and Gogeta, they are ideas that have a lot of room for expansion and reinterpretation.
So if they are gonna bring something back again, I think GT stuff would be a very good idea. Too bad GT isn't a cashcow like Broly is.
A few added notes (watch out for those 20 year old spoilers!) :
When goku is turned to a kid, "they" means kid-goku, Pan (goku's granddaughter), and teen trunks. Everyone else stays on earth. Very important, if they don't find the bad dragonballs that have gone throughout the universe… earth explodes. Side effect of the dark dragonballs made by King piccolo iirc.
The Tsufurujin were a race coexistent with the Saijans on their planet, exterminated by the Saijans, and Baby is a parasytic being using Tsufuru genes, meaning he can take over Saijans. He travels to earth after meeting goku and co in space, takes over weaker Saijans like Gohan and Goten, then heads for Vegeta - sort of resulting in Majin vegeta 2.0. The climax of this fight sees Kid Goku (now with a tail) turning super saijan while in great ape form, and reaching SSJ4 as a result of controlling that form. He then faces off against Baby Vegeta, also in Great Ape form.
Android 17 saga is stupid, but yeah, two android 17s fuse and become Super 17. Also this is done by gero from the afterlife, and you get hijinks like dead Cell and Freeza vs kid Goku, Nappa facing off Vegeta once more, etc.
Final saga has a few high notes, namely Vegeta putting his pride aside and also achieving SSJ4 by cheating (He gets Bulma's help, creating a Machine to let him transform). Final dragon Omega Shenron is really powerful, absorbs all other dragons, outmatches SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta until they fuse into SSJ 4 Gogeta (but get cocky and lose anyway because transformation ends). Help from the 4 star ball dragon and Universal Genkidama saves the day (because now goku has friends all over the universe thanks to the first saga of GT!).
Series ends with Goku asking Shenron to resurrect everyone killed by shadowdragons, and gets on Shenron's back to leave the gang forever.
It's got some really incoherent parts with retcons, where motivations make no sense, powerlevels scale awfully, Freeza being emperor of Universe makes no sense in GT canon... but on the whole, I like GT, unlike everyone else on this forum ahahah. I also really love the clothing choices for Goku (the blue gi <3), and the animation in GT, as well as liking Pan, kid Goku, and Trunks' dynamics. Yea Goku's character is inconsistent as hell... but I still find it a fun ride. Also Vegeta's 80's hard rock band clothing is lol
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I'm one of those people that thinks "Tsufurujin" is really clumsy but I hate the name "Baby".
That's the theme of GT in a nutshell, right? It honestly DID have some interesting ideas - the Shadow Dragons were brilliant in concept because it was a ramification for a series-wide abuse of the Dragon Balls - from undoing deaths to more ridiculous things like Oolong's panties. But of course most of them had to be forgettable and total fodder for Goku.
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I'm one of those people that thinks "Tsufurujin" is really clumsy but I hate the name "Baby".
That's the theme of GT in a nutshell, right? It honestly DID have some interesting ideas - the Shadow Dragons were brilliant in concept because it was a ramification for a series-wide abuse of the Dragon Balls - from undoing deaths to more ridiculous things like Oolong's panties. But of course most of them had to be forgettable and total fodder for Goku.
In GT's defence, it probably doesn't sound as idiotic in Japanese. No more idiotic than Saiyajins, at least. That one's on the localizers for not coming up with a sensible naming alternative for the english dub.
Actually, much of GT's widespread hate in the west may be down to the localizers. From the substitution of the beautiful japanese soundtrack, to the changing of the opening to a really ugly song instead of the really sweet japanese GT opening, to clumsy dialogue choices in the dub. I personally find it's nowhere near as hated in italy, where we actually got a good dub for the series. And hell, it gets reruns to this day! Not that that excuses the dumb bits or explains it's flop in japan… but the fact the english localization process was so atrocious certainly has an impact on it's hate from American DB fans especially, most of whom experienced it for the first time dubbed on american tv, I presume.
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Yeah I can see why "Tuffle" isn't very cool either. I just keep thinking of truffle.
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Yeah I can see why "Tuffle" isn't very cool either. I just keep thinking of truffle.
_"The Japanese name Tsufuru-jin is a pun. Specifically, it is a Japanese pronunciation of the English word "fruit" (furutsu). This implies their opposition to the Saiyan race, whose name is a pun on the Japanese word for "vegetable" (yasai). The dub name of "Tuffles" possibly linked to "Truffles", another food found in the ground akin to a vegetable. One difference between truffles and other vegetables is that all the names of Saiyans are "plant" vegetables, while truffles are mushrooms, making them fungi and not plants."
(from the DB wiki)_
I'm already imagining the 2018 style scandal if they'd named them "fruitjins" and then gone on an explanation about the more manly, powerful saijans exterminating the fruits for being weaker. Not politically incorrect at ALL :ninja: -
right, I knew it was something to contrast with the food pun.
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Fun fact, the English dub actually just SKIPPED the first half of GT and started with the action stuff… then went back in later to do the wacky adventure stuff.
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The lost episodes or something like that
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Fun fact, the English dub actually just SKIPPED the first half of GT and started with the action stuff… then went back in later to do the wacky adventure stuff.
Well, more like the first 16 episodes (out of 64). I believe their claim was that the early episodes were boring.
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In Germany most episodes were heavily cut because the airing station decided it was too violent and 13 episodes weren't aired at all!
It's the main reason why i haven't seen a lot of GT to this day and only know some story details. -
Well, more like the first 16 episodes (out of 64). I believe their claim was that the early episodes were boring.
And yet the same bunch was content to leave the Garlic Jr. Saga alone.
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And yet the same bunch was content to leave the Garlic Jr. Saga alone.
Just taking a page out of Ocean's playbook with some of the Gohan centric episodes which were more depressing than boring.
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And yet the same bunch was content to leave the Garlic Jr. Saga alone.
That was shortly after they'd taken full control of the rights and started recording in their own studio and they had stopped cutting content, as opposed to how the first 52 episodes (made out of about 67 episodes) had worked.
Also, I think they wanted/needed the breathing room that filler arc gave them to put in time to dub the entire Android arc in one go. I think it all released in one batch (albeit it over two months because it was like 70 episodes.) That's when the property was hitting its full heat and they wanted every episode they could milk.
But then they looked at GT and saw how it might hurt the brand.
What will always, ALWAYS boggle my mind is that they took the Saiyan saga filler episodes… and cut out Gohan and the Robot, (which was Nozawa's favorite episode) while leaving in the HFIL episode, where they had to go into every single shot in the episode and digitally paint over their shirts. That would have been such an easy episode to cut.
Also, they did things like leave in fake Namek.... or treat Tree of Might as three episodes that were slotted into the regular rotation. Just... why?
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What will always, ALWAYS boggle my mind is that they took the Saiyan saga filler episodes… and cut out Gohan and the Robot, (which was Nozawa's favorite episode) while leaving in the HFIL episode, where they had to go into every single shot in the episode and digitally paint over their shirts. That would have been such an easy episode to cut.
Also, they did things like leave in fake Namek.... or treat Tree of Might as three episodes that were slotted into the regular rotation. Just... why?
That was Ocean, wasn't it? I mean, they did a lot of things that made no sense, like Bardock being a "brilliant scientist" or Goku believing Vegeta was the one who killed his grandpa.
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That was Ocean, wasn't it? I mean, they did a lot of things that made no sense, like Bardock being a "brilliant scientist" or Goku believing Vegeta was the one who killed his grandpa.
Nope, it's always been Funimation with the DBZ rights (but not original DB). Ocean was just the VA studio and distributing. Then with season 3 Funi bought their own recording studio in Texas and struck out on their own to try and get ALL the profits… including hiring random hobos off the street to be inappropriate VA's and having like 4 guys cover the entire cast.
Ocean then continued their own dub because of Canadian laws requiring X amount off Canadian work on a tv show, but they used the exact same scripts. (Why Funi didn't just keep the Ocean VAs at that point since they were doing it anyway is another choice I will never understand.)
But if you compare the credits the staff is pretty much the same except for the VAs and composer.
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Nope, it's always been Funimation with the DBZ rights (but not original DB). Ocean was just the VA studio and distributing. Then with season 3 Funi bought their own recording studio in Texas and struck out on their own to try and get ALL the profits… including hiring random hobos off the street to be inappropriate VA's and having like 4 guys cover the entire cast.
Ocean then continued their own dub because of Canadian laws requiring X amount off Canadian work on a tv show, but they used the exact same scripts. (Why Funi didn't just keep the Ocean VAs at that point since they were doing it anyway is another choice I will never understand.)
But if you compare the credits the staff is pretty much the same except for the VAs and composer.
Huh. Well that is interesting how things changed aside from the VAs once Funi did the dubbing themselves. Like how the let up on the censoring (no more "another dimension" deaths), they got new background music, and they changed the title cards.
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I think they let up on the censoring for three reasons.
1-they couldn't afford to digitally edit stuff anymore
2-trying to keep up that pretense with Frieza slaughtering everyone and Guru's natural death and Vegeta climbing out of his grave and all that stuff would have been a nightmare to work around.
3-They knew they were going to air on Cartoon Network at 4 in the afternoon, as opposed to Saturday mornings at 7 am. Different audience and they knew it. -
That was shortly after they'd taken full control of the rights
Well, for DBZ anyway; most of the Dragon Ball films and Pilaf story were held by Kidmark until 2008 or so.
That will always, ALWAYS boggle my mind is that they took the Saiyan saga filler episodes… and cut out Gohan and the Robot, (which was Nozawa's favorite episode) while leaving in the HFIL episode, where they had to go into every single shot in the episode and digitally paint over their shirts. That would have been such an easy episode to cut.
Also, they did things like leave in fake Namek.... or treat Tree of Might as three episodes that were slotted into the regular rotation. Just... why?
Most of those early episode edits were mandated by Saban so who knows what the strategy there was. Presumably it was because the robot sacrificed itself to save Gohan and a thinking machine blatantly dying was a bridge too far for them.
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God I remember having my Dad record every episode on VHS for me each night of the "new uncut missing episodes" of DBZ airing I believe in the summer of 2005. And it was mostly those Saiyan arc fillers.
Also to add to that "funi hired people off the street" I think I remember Sean Schemel saying on Rob Paulsen's podcast that he got the job from a listing in the paper, though I could be remembering that wrong.
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Also to add to that "funi hired people off the street" I think I remember Sean Schemel saying on Rob Paulsen's podcast that he got the job from a listing in the paper, though I could be remembering that wrong.
Yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. They didn't get professionals, they just got whoever would work for below minimum wage and could do a vague impression of the Ocean actors. The initial run they really did have like 3 guys voicing ALL the characters. (It's hard to find those credits now since they've gone back and redubbed them since and branched out the VAs so credit is all over the place… you'd have to go back and look at the actual tapes of the time.) None of them were talented enough to actually pull it off. Having just 1 woman wasn't so bad because Bulma and Chichi were the only extended female part for that first year,
And nearly 20 years later we're STILL stuck with Schemel's complete lack of grasp on Goku, and retard lisp King Kai.
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Nope, it's always been Funimation with the DBZ rights (but not original DB). Ocean was just the VA studio and distributing. Then with season 3 Funi bought their own recording studio in Texas and struck out on their own to try and get ALL the profits… including hiring random hobos off the street to be inappropriate VA's
Well shit.
Most of those early episode edits were mandated by Saban so who knows what the strategy there was. Presumably it was because the robot sacrificed itself to save Gohan and a thinking machine blatantly dying was a bridge too far for them.
Seems kind of weird in light of what happened to that Dinosaur…..and Goku, Chaiotzu and Piccolo.
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No.
You gotta be shitting me.
This is too much. Toyotaro, staaaahp. Does this guy has no editors? Isn't Toriyama like "man, what are you doing?"? Nothing?
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I can't see the image. Anyone want to point me to what I should be seeing?
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I can't see the image. Anyone want to point me to what I should be seeing?
! Toppo and the speedy ear mouse are eliminated because the platform they were standing on broke. For some reason, jumping or Jiren helping wasn't an option. I dunno, not seeing why it's 'too much' other than it being a bit silly.
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I can't see the image. Anyone want to point me to what I should be seeing?
how is this one?
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I mean, the chapter isn't even that bad, but that one scene is stupid as fuck.
And that's on top of all the stuff Toyotaro's been doing for the past months, which are. . .divisive.
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Wow. He made Toppo and other guy super pathetic here. Even reading the whole chapter still made them lame. Did Toppo not even go near God of Death state in this manga version?
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Wow. He made Toppo and other guy super pathetic here. Even reading the whole chapter still made them lame. Did Toppo not even go near God of Death state in this manga version?
Nope. Nothing even close to that. In fact. . .
! he was kicked around easily by non-golden freeza in this very chapter.
Like, I'm gonna be the first one to say "thank you, Toyotaro, for making Gohan 'relatively' powerful in a way that's halfway consistent", but everything else he's done with the tournament of power is. . . . Let's not talk about it too much. For everyone's sakes.
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Oh my. That's outright stupid.
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! The rock had actually been damaged by Freeza, so it was probably a delayed effect for dramatic effect. Still, Toyo-tarou's fights are so poorly paneled and drawn these days. I seriously hope he either improves or a new successor is found.
! I'm still not a fan of what's being done with Vegeta this arc, but at least there's a clear contrast with Vegeta and Gokuu and how they improve. That's a nice touch. -
@Yuugi's:
Still, Toyo-tarou's fights are so poorly paneled and drawn these days. I seriously hope he either improves or a new successor is found.
They've always been bad. He was just tracing/directly copying more of Toriyama's stuff early on. He's never been good at action.
The guy that did the Yamcha reincarnated story was pretty solid, but he was also on a longer timetable.
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They've always been bad. He was just tracing/directly copying more of Toriyama's stuff early on. He's never been good at action.
The guy that did the Yamcha reincarnated story was pretty solid, but he was also on a longer timetable.
Lee's fights are pretty weak, too. I think he's just good at copying others' art styles. In his Dragon Ball Sai doujinshi he seems to heavily reference or trace of Hajime no Ippo, too. It's a shame Murata Yuusuke is so busy with One-Punch Man. I'd love to see him try a Dragon Ball comic someday.
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I mean, it's not entirely their fault. You're asking them to be THE NEXT TORIYAMA, while also completely matching the art style. And that's just not possible. Even Toriyama himself can't match that anymore.
Oda is the closest we've got and he's not trying to mimick the style at all.
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I think that for manga they should release the leash a little?
Saint Seiya's best stuff was the… second less Kurumadaish.
Episode G looked like G for Garbage, but Lost Canvas managed to do the Hades arc right. Haven't been keeping up with any more spinoff tho.
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! Toppo and the speedy ear mouse are eliminated because the platform they were standing on broke. For some reason, jumping or Jiren helping wasn't an option. I dunno, not seeing why it's 'too much' other than it being a bit silly.
! Freeza removed all the other platforms so they couldn't jump anywhere and then damaged the one they were standing. If I understood it right, they asked for Jiren's help, but he refused.
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They've always been bad. He was just tracing/directly copying more of Toriyama's stuff early on. He's never been good at action.
The guy that did the Yamcha reincarnated story was pretty solid, but he was also on a longer timetable.
Not gonna defend Toyotaro too much, but honestly? At least he tried to mimick Toriyama's style of action. People seem to think all Dragonball fights are a blur of "atatatatata" super fast punches, when Toriyama is more about big hits that have real impact. That, simply put, doesn't exist in the DB Super anime. It's, as I said, a massive succession of "atatatatatatatata" and then Kamehameha or 'insert your Nostalgia Beam in here!'. That's it. There's 0 choreography or weight or anything.
Toyotaro at least 'tries'. His version of the Goku Black fight has way more oomph behind it, and he borrowed Janemba's teleport-punches for a pretty decent effect (yes, I'm aware he then did the awful, awful Hakai crap, but that's not what we're talking about). Kefla vs. Gohan is short as hell, but that double knock out punch is way more impactful than Gohan going "atatatatata" vs. Dyspo also goin, well, you get the picture.
It's just, it doesn't matter who fights who, it's just random melee fisticuffs followed by Kamehameha. That's not how a DB fight works. Toyotaro tries to do the classic DB fight, and he's not THAT bad at it. That's not what makes the manga bad, honestly. Or a least, it's not even close to be its biggest offender.
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I swear Ikemoto from Boruto can do better fighting choreography than Toyotaro…
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I still think when it came to the action, the ToP improved significantly. You got stuff like episode 110, 116 and 131 that at least varies up the choreography. Ultra Instinct in general is very distinctly movement-based, rather than just about beam struggles. There were a bunch of episodes with technique and skill mattering and trumping the opponents.
That was Roshi's whole thing and why Kale and Caulifla didn't beat Goku despite being more powerful at that point. Goku almost ringed out Jiren with a very well used technique. Much more inventive than the mostly generic beamspamming in the BoG, RoF and FT arcs. I actually like a bunch of action in the FT arc, too, some scenes are very good, but it is also mostly more of the generic beam spam stuff.
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FighterZ post:
I dislike that Android 18 has 17 for an assist, when 17 is now in the game…but
the new Android 17 scans look pretty snazzy. I'd love to run a ToP survivors team of him, Frieza, and Goku!
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I think Yuusuke Murata should just draw every action manga out there. He's clearly the most efficient manga-ka in the business, and is up there as the most artistically competent. I know it's obviously not possible for him to do it all, but like, can we clone him or something? The man is a gift from god.
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The cartoon was in constant production hell, so I don't really blame it for some repetitive action, but Toyo-tarou seems to just make his life harder on purpose. He uses too many panels per page, which just winds up lowering the overall quality of his work. I can't stand looking at a lot of his fight scenes because the positions his characters swing at and face toward make no sense. There's zero flow between the panels, something that Toriyama was a master at, and as a result there's no energy behind his fights. One starts getting cross-eyed just trying to make sense of his paneling. With, say, Oda, there's too many lines (although I haven't read One Piece in years, so maybe that finally changed). It's a muddled effect.
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Another FighterZ update:
The actual 17 trailer is above and while I still think he looks cool, I'm disappointed that he appears to have at least two recycled animations from his 18 assists. Now that's just lazy.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I wish 17's finisher was him crashing his boat on top of the opponent, and then punching it DIO BRANDO style.
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Yep. Minus is in there.
I hope its not too big of a focus point because everything else actually looks interesting.
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Yeah, the first 30 mins of the movie will be pretty much this.
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What the heck is going on with Frieza?
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So Toriyama is taking this time to give us his spin on Bardock as well and making Minus more canon?
I'm in.