So is Goku Black going to be voiced by Peter Kalamis?
-scythes open a portal-
Life has many doors, trunks-boy
So is Goku Black going to be voiced by Peter Kalamis?
-scythes open a portal-
Life has many doors, trunks-boy
Yay, another universe that acts as stupid as possible and despite them pretending to be so uber-smart they just aren't. Why does no one grasp and therefore include it in their planning that they also have to deal with U11 and especially Jiren later on who not only is apparently the absolute strongest, but also has lost almost no stamina.
If anybody deserves to get erased from existence it's U3 as well as the writers who come up with all that mess.
Yay, another universe that acts as stupid as possible and despite them pretending to be so uber-smart they just aren't. Why does no one grasp and therefore include it in their planning that they also have to deal with U11 and especially Jiren later on who not only is apparently the absolute strongest, but also has lost almost no stamina.
If anybody deserves to get erased from existence it's U3 as well as the writers who come up with all that mess.
Attacking universe 11 doesn't make sense from a strategic perspective when they have 3 members left and you have 5. Universe 7 has 6 left, so if you're trying to win the numbers game it makes sense to reduce their numbers to 4 or less before thinking about universe 11.
Tell me, what sense does it make for U3 right now to attack Jiren knowing a. They probably can't beat him; b. Knowing they don't necessarily have to beat him since they have more members left.
Attacking universe 11 doesn't make sense from a strategic perspective when they have 3 members left and you have 5. Universe 7 has 6 left, so if you're trying to win the numbers game it makes sense to reduce their numbers to 4 or less before thinking about universe 11.
Tell me, what sense does it make for U3 right now to attack Jiren knowing a. They probably can't beat him; b. Knowing they don't necessarily have to beat him since they have more members left.
I never said anything about attacking Jiren directly.
How about trying to engage the two other universes into combat and then clear up afterwards? I think U3 is all about analysing and evaluating data. How about making some profiling and develop a proper scheme based on these very results? Like manipulating a certain prince to make the first move. There are more options than just doing battle especially in this kind of scenario.
The latter half of the tournament has been all about keeping numbers and U7 has had the most for this latter half. It was smarter for U4 and U3 to go after them, rather waste time on opponents they know they can't beat at all. Waiting it out is an option, but it's also a risk if more members are left on the field. So pick your poison?
Part of this arc's premise was that the universes were targeting U7.
U9 had a direct grudge towards U7. U10 had terrible fighters. U2 had the love gimmick, so they targeted them to "vanquish evil". U6 had again, Champa ordering to attack U7 because of sibling rivalry. U3 and U4 again, had fewer/equal members left and it's smarter to stall against Jiren, rather than fight him. U4 also had Quitela's rivalry with Beerus.
U11 isn't motivated by these things. They just focus on surviving and to be fair to U3, they were also the last one to survive besides U7 and U11.
I can't remember, did U3 Kaioshin actually react in some way to Vegeta not contributing to the Spirit Bomb? If not, it's just a perfect testimony of the overall subpar writing quality - considering that moment just was a perfect delivery of a weakness that the analysts of U3 could work out into a proper strategy.
They have been really confident across this whole thing that their Fusion is gonna win. Same problem U4 and to some extent U11 has, honestly all universes had a moment like that. They're just really confident in their fighters and act on impulse rather than reason.
Standing around and taking all the hits isn't exactly smart, 17 says.
I get the feeling the "stupidity" is at least some part, if not entirely, delibrate, is what I'm saying. All the universes are motivated by impulses, don't make all the right decisions or are overconfident.
Y'know, Goku and Vegeta should've really let the androids to be killed. Goku should've let Vegeta be killed. Etc. But they didn't.
We all know it's to keep the plot going, but it's not like it doesn't have any explanations in-story in terms of characters and how they've behaved.
So we all agree that U3 and U4 are nothing more than dumb overconfident smug-asses without any decent longer time strategic planning capabilities who just deserve(d) to get erased instantly.
Do you know what I would have considered funny? If the Grand Priest would just have called out one of them and suggested to instantly erase the universe for being that stupid to which the Zenos agree and do so. That also would give some vibe of unpredictability from the deities which always is told us instead of actually showing. But for that they had to be actual characters displaying some actual own motivation instead of just being plot bitches.
And so we get U7 vs. U11 faster, so everybody of interest wins!
Not that hyperbolic because U3's characters have been pretty proud of their creations since their introduction and Quitela is out for Beerus more than anything considering the schemes prior to the tournament.
I've seen this complaint around a bunch in general and it never bothered me because of this element.
Fights not being interrupted doesn't bother me in this second half either because there are far less fighters in the arena. Same as the universes not being able to stick together or help each other in the first half. There were so many fighters at the start that it makes sense characters could be distracted by another opponent.
So is Goku Black going to be voiced by Peter Kalamis?
You dare mock the son of a brilliant scientist?!
So is Goku Black going to be voiced by Peter Kalamis?
lol
Didn't even realize it was Drummond until I read about the episode
well played, Funimation!
I really feel like complaints about Gods and kais being incompetent in the tournament are a little hollow when this entire situation is occurring because the gods and kais are incompetent generally
@Long:
You know I havent heard people say that but when I think about it Its hard to find a consensus.
Could you briefly go more deeply into why you like him a lot?
Gosh, now I'm nervous! For one thing, I really like his design. A skinless Egyptian cat god just does it for me like say-Buu never did.
Then, considering that he was introduced as a villain, I thought that his impersonal-not-necessarily-evil motivations were a fresh take - a mix of "just doing my job" and a Saiyan/Cell-like quest for a challenge.
I also enjoy his quest for delicious Earth food, his companionship with Whis, and his disinterest in just wiping out Earth's opponents for them. He's just neat to me. Maybe not terribly original, but in the DB context, pretty fresh to me.
@Cyan:
You dare mock the son of a brilliant scientist?!
Well it's not like he accused him of stepping on a bunch people including his grandpa.
i feel weird saying last week is good yet everyone didn't like it…
If nothing else, I liked that U3 is stepping up the plate. Sure we all KNOW that U7 vs. U11 will be the tournament's final stretch, but the robot universe aren't pushovers. The merging reminded me of the Super 13 movie for some reason…...I just love that Jiren and all them, and Freeza, and content to just kick back and watch this go down. A consequence of having only ~20% of the roster left.
And really, you'd think more people would have the idea to break the arena.......and oh yeah, how could I forget?
"Gohan's probably helping Goku and Vegeta save their stamina"
they turn blue anyway
christ. At this point, they have as much stamina as the script says.
Gosh, now I'm nervous! For one thing, I really like his design. A skinless Egyptian cat god just does it for me like say-Buu never did.
Then, considering that he was introduced as a villain, I thought that his impersonal-not-necessarily-evil motivations were a fresh take - a mix of "just doing my job" and a Saiyan/Cell-like quest for a challenge.
I also enjoy his quest for delicious Earth food, his companionship with Whis, and his disinterest in just wiping out Earth's opponents for them. He's just neat to me. Maybe not terribly original, but in the DB context, pretty fresh to me.
Considering how I firmly believe that Beerus was the very last time this series actively tried to make a well-designed and entertaining character, I agree with all of this. Beerus' skinny anatomy, facial structure, eyes, ears, voice, and personality all just do it for me so well. He's a really nice balance between Toriyama's kooky side and still being a character you can take seriously. And I don't know what you mean by not being terribly original. Is it because he's inspired by Egyptian cats? Because I find that even more cool, and Toriyama totally took inspiration from the concept while implementing his own unique aesthetic to make Beerus his own standout character.
And I like Buu. Mainly design and power-wise. I really like the idea of an all-powerful space demon being pink and having candy powers lol. Fat Buu's body shape and clothes are a fresh new antagonist take, but I mostly like Kid Buu. Has a good balance of quirkiness with his kid figure and scariness in his childlike rabid temper. Super Buu… Who cares about Super Buu? He was pretty much just Perfect Cell. Personality-wise, which really only corresponds to Fat Buu, he shines best when with Mr. Satan.
@Count:
Super Buu… Who cares about Super Buu? He was pretty much just Perfect Cell. Personality-wise, which really only corresponds to Fat Buu, he shines best when with Mr. Satan.
mainly when he started his absorption kick…..not surprisingly, Cell used as well.
Buu overall is this powerful, almost horrifying opponent that hides under this pink, bubble gum exterior, and he feels very Toriyama-esque (for the most part). My favorite parts are when he's interacting with Mr. Satan.
So we all agree that U3 and U4 are nothing more than dumb overconfident smug-asses without any decent longer time strategic planning capabilities who just deserve(d) to get erased instantly.
Speak for yourself.
You’re upset about U3 targetting U7 instead of 11 even though U7 has double the number of members left than U11. Do you remember what happened the last time U3 tried to datamine U11?? It resulted in one of their stronger fighters being one l-shot eliminated from the stage. The definition of stupidity would be making the exact same mistake again at such a crucial point in time in the tournament.
I was fine with U3 strategy this episode. I will hate it next episode when they still concentrate on them despite lacking the numbers.
I like the long arm robot movement.
I wish 18 could have her own moment already rather than repeating 17 actions.
U11vsU3 next year.
18 defeated Ribrianne in 117. That whole episode was very much 18's episode.
@Count:
Considering how I firmly believe that Beerus was the very last time this series actively tried to make a well-designed and entertaining character, I agree with all of this. Beerus' skinny anatomy, facial structure, eyes, ears, voice, and personality all just do it for me so well. He's a really nice balance between Toriyama's kooky side and still being a character you can take seriously. And I don't know what you mean by not being terribly original. Is it because he's inspired by Egyptian cats? Because I find that even more cool, and Toriyama totally took inspiration from the concept while implementing his own unique aesthetic to make Beerus his own standout character.
And I like Buu. Mainly design and power-wise. I really like the idea of an all-powerful space demon being pink and having candy powers lol. Fat Buu's body shape and clothes are a fresh new antagonist take, but I mostly like Kid Buu. Has a good balance of quirkiness with his kid figure and scariness in his childlike rabid temper. Super Buu… Who cares about Super Buu? He was pretty much just Perfect Cell. Personality-wise, which really only corresponds to Fat Buu, he shines best when with Mr. Satan.
I mean, I completely agree. I find him quite original, I just don't have enough faith in my own opinion, so I back peddle often. When I said that I meant specifically that his love of battle and food isn't necessarily a stand out quality in DB or Shounen, in general.
I don't really have that much against Buu. I definitely liked him most as Fat Buu. His other forms, to me, were kinda boring personality wise. But I mean, despite the fact that I like Cell, he wasn't nearly as interesting as he could have been either. In Abridged, he's pretty cool though. Everything is better in Abridged. Really Frieza is just where it's at.
Beerus is great because the original idea for him was garbage and then Toriyams slipped in, misread his name as "Beers" and then rewrote the whole thing into the comical, selfish, piece of shit god we love now
I stand to my belief that Battle of Gods was the worst anime related thing I ever watched (it's also the only DB movie I watched. Take that as you wish) and that its DBS counterpart is just as terrible, but Beerus alone makes the struggle worthy. From design to personality, he is just amazing. I mean, it is basically this:
@Count:
was the very last time this series actively tried to make a well-designed and entertaining character
Beerus oozes the creativity and effort (successful effort, btw) that everything since seems to lack.
18 defeated Ribrianne in 117. That whole episode was very much 18's episode.
You mean the parallel fight she had with 17 fighting the other one culminating on both of them having to face Ribrianne? I don't agree.
17 helped, but the character focus and final blow were 18's.
17 and 18 were always centered around teamwork and supporting each other
17 running interference for his sis is fine
Like I keep saying, you can see Toriyama's fingerprints all over Battle of the Gods. The comedy and absurdity of it and Beers and how not-seriously it takes itself compared to other movie outings… you can just FEEL his involvement.
Basically everything since he's just giving a super rough pass over on if he has anything to do with it at all.
I dunno. Ribrianne seems plenty wierd Dragon Ball to me.
Like, you keep basically saying Super feels nothing like Dragon Ball over and over in different threads even, but it feels plenty DB to me. A lot of the ToP fun stuff and strategy is plenty early DB tournaments do, especially.
But I can just disagree.
The FT arc feels like an DBZ arc, rather than og DB and the DBZ portion always had editors interfering, but the serious stuff is still DB, too.
It doesn't feel like One Piece or Naruto or any other series. I can even agree that it's not as good as most of og DB or Z (I like Super, but as positive I am about it, I still do think it's the weakest of the three, it only stopped being awful almost 30 episodes in and to me has truly been solid/consistent starting the end of the FT arc, which is kind of 70 or so episodes into it and that's not very good).
But it does feel like DB to me. Unless I've been misunderstanding you all this time.
I liked the first two episodes of Super
But it does feel like DB to me. Unless I've been misunderstanding you all this time.
I'm not saying it doesn't feel like Dragonball.
But there's a vast difference between
Toriyama Dragonball
and
Anime filler/movies Dragonball.
Heres an important question. Have you read the manga? Or only watched the old padded out anime? If you've only seen the padded anime that makes a significant difference.
There's a certain rhythm,intensity, irreverence and pacing that Toriyama captured pretty regularly, where the stakes felt high and the villains felt threatening, where the comedy was unexpected. Even in his off periods like the android saga there were legitimate twists and surprises and "woah!" moments regularly. Its a difficult thing to encapsulate and describe other than just saying "Toriyama."
Super just feels entirely like anime filler, where they don't quite understand Toriyama's madness. The pacing is wonky and I haven't once in over 100 episodes felt like there was any danger at all except very breifly during Zamasu when they went Vegitto. In a series that isn't constrained by a manga any more, the pacing should be better than this, the threats scarier. It shouldn't feel like they're constantly treading water waiting to get somewhere almost three years later.
And oh geez, this got longer than I expected. I appologize.
[hide]I enjoyed all the movies (and I must have watched the Cooler films 100 times back when it was all I had of the future stuff) and I like some of the filler episodes just fine. A handful of filler bits are among the best stuff the franchise has. I have no problem with them.
But there is a vast difference between "Toriyama is invested in this and tweaking the comedy and dictating the action and rewriting the script adding his personal touches" and "anime staff suggested a thing and Toriyama okayed it and maybe did a couple designs."
Battle of Gods the film you could tell he was all over it. Beerus and Whis especially. Where the anime movie villains had all consistently just being stoic assholes out to conquer things (who were dressed like Saiyans in multiple movies, and were extra androids, and who from movies 8-13 generally didn't even really have dialogue anymore and were just brainless destruction beasts that looked cool) Toriyama's movie villain was a lazy foodie who flipped out over stupid things and got into petty arguments and the movie ended with Goku losing. And there was a fish that could tell the future. And Krillin became a cop. And we randomly had the Pilof gang de-aged and Mai flirting with Trunks, because why not, that's an unexpected way to go. ANd it was just loaded with ideas and craziness and character movement. It didn't all work but it was a lot of creativity and doing things and moving forward.
And then the series started and all lack of spontaneity died out, all threats felt meaningless and underpowered, and they haven't known what to do with any of the characters. They eventually had a string of "powering up" episodes, but saying "they're strong enough to be in this tournament" isn't the same as having any idea what to do with them.
For cripes sake, this tournament of power, is taking well over a solid year, when the longest tournament in DB prior were 20 episodes at most.
The entirety of the series thus far, I've gotten excited when
-Goku went blue Kai-ken
-when the shit hit the fan with Zamasu and they had to fuse
-Goku's new berseker state and that crazy Kamehameha
Two of those scene are mostly only exiciting because they were callbacks to the original series.
But you look at the original series and you get things like
TaopaiPai shows up and kills a guy with his tongue, gets around by jumping onto a log he himself threw, outdoes Goku's Kamehameha, nearly kills Goku, then Goku struggles to climb a tower, Goku meets a weird cat guy who trains him, Goku is given a weird sensu bean thing that feeds him for a month, Tao gets a new suit made and then kills his tailor, then Goku beats Tao, then Tao runs up the same tower that gave Goku so much trouble, and then Tao beats Goku again! And then Tao gets beaten by his own bomb! And that was all in the course of like 5 chapters! And within that short amount of time Tao is a super memorable villain.
And then immediately after that Goku goes off and gets into a fight with badguy armies, and then drags Yamcha and Krillin to a tournament where theymeet Roshi's sister who is a witch, and there's a enemy in there that has an instant kill attack and he hits Goku with it! Oh no, Goku is dead for sure! Except Goku has no evil in his heart! And then they fight a whole bunch of horror monsters and they beat one of them by getting Master Roshi to stare at Bulma's breasts and nosebleed over the invisible man and Yamcha gets his one win in the series, and then Goku ends up fighting his own grandfather! And then immediately after they go out and ifnd Pilof again who is in a giant mecha this time around and…!
and again, that's all within a small handful of chapters.
Or jump ahead to the Buu saga and the endless series of twists there with Vegeta turning evil, the way Buu actually looked like a fat pink goofball, Goku and Vegeta fighting, Vegeta dying, and Buu still being fine! Within 8 chapters! And then immediately followed by Super 3 Goku, Goku having to leave, the fusions, Gohan trying to get a mega sword that then turns out to be an elder kai, the unusual training method he then has,mystic Gohan, Buu's many forms, killing everyone on earth, Gohan versus Buu, Vegitto, inside of Buu, now Fat Buu is on our side, everything is desperate, Vegeta stalls for time and admits Goku is better than him, spirit bomb!
Just rapid fire constant "what is going to happen next?" with constant twists and turns and unusual reversals.
Meanwhile, this tournament we've been in for nealy a year is just biding time until it gets to Goku versus Jiren with no actual surprises along the way. Yes, there's some wackiness and some fusion and some cool moments, but it's just been a solid year of slowly the weaker characters get kicked out and universes fade but it's... just stalling for the big fight and nothing and no one else seems to matter in the meantime. Even the faint hope that there could be a twist surprise and Goku loses and it comes down to Gohan and Frieza or something is completely diminished by Goku now having yet another form. And that's not an issue previous tournaments ever had. Maybe its because the one on one format allowed you to better invest in other characters? Sure you knew it would be Goku at the end, but you could root for the others to do well in the meantime and at least win their fights... and be surprised when Krillin and Roshi's match goes so fast they have to replay it in slow mo with help from the announcer, or when Krillin faces Goku, or when Krillin almost beat Piccollo, when a salaryman beats Yamcha, when Goku the main character loses two different tournamnets (one for being hit by a car) and then the surprise immediately after one tourney where Krillin gets killed! Off camera!
This just doesn't have that. There were simply too many participants to get invested in and so its dragging out just to reach a super inevitable conclusion against an enemy we have no investment in who has zero personality at this point. And its dull. [/hide]
And Super just doesn't have that intensity or suspense or surprise or constant feeling of twists and "what will happen next?" It lacks the Toriyama touch.
Hey, goku hit the car, not the other way around, that's how he meet Bulma.
Goku beating Jiren midway, but getting koed in the process, and the other universes getting their crazy powerups as they had, and making dents on U7 while having the risk both of deletion and freeza winning.
Bam! Stakes! Danger! Plottwist that can amount to something! Goku losing the tournament again!
Yeah, that would have single handedly fixed the entire thing and made this second half more tense. Like how would they have dealt with Broly fusion without new Goku mega mode? But knowing full year in advance it's all just going to come down to Goku's new power up versus boring Jiren just makes it… dull. No matter how cool Goku's new powerup may be.
Nothing else matters in the meantime until they get that out of the way. It doesn't make Jiren seem bigger and scarier to save him for last, it just makes it seem like everything the secondary cast is doing is pointless. It's clear that's being Barring one of the Gods of Destruction or Angels or one of the Zeno twins suddenly going full villain it's going to be a routine, long expected ending to a year long arc where nothing important has happened.
Universe 6 Saiyans and maybe Nameks are probably the only characters we'll get recurring from this whole thing when its all said and done.
The constant wankery over it when it comes up is kind of putting me off the manga.
I hate it when that happens and I try to be above it. It's shallow to do that, so I'll try to get to it at some point.
Add to that, I'm not a manga person. I like music, good direction, art and animation. I like the anime, warts and all.
I don't think the story has had tension since we learned the Dragon Balls can bring characters back to life. No amount of better pacing can change that because it's something always there and known.
(With manga, everyone determines their own reading speed, too.)
Thanks for explaining - I was confused by what you meant by what you said.
It's not wankery. The manga is better. There's no argument to get around that. The padding the anime adds completely wrecks the pacing, dumbs down the characters, and makes the universe as a whole less cohesive. The anime has it's moments of brilliance and parts where it surprasses the manga like it's version of Future Trunk's story or the Bardock story or the driving episode, but as a whole, it drags it down.
There's a difference between "reading at your own speed" and "the anime spends literally ten minutes doing a power up sequence that was one panel in the manga."
Kai fixed the problem some by cutting out a lot of the padding, but still not completely, and they stopped even trying by the android and Buu sagas, only trimming a handful of episodes from those.
Not to mention, even in the anime, there's a huge vast difference between the japanese version and the english dubs. The music used, the voices picked, the jokes added or lines changed, personalities made different, will vastly vary how the story is too. Despite having the exact same animation and plot they're almost entirely two different things. English dub Goku and King Kai are both incredibly awful and fail the characters entirely. (And there's been like 18 different dubs now with different cuts and different music choices.)
Add to that, I'm not a manga person. I like music, good direction, art and animation. I like the anime, warts and all.
I get preferring the have animation and voices and music, and that's an advantage it has, but not when the story suffers horrendously for it. "Good direction" is NOT something the anime typically had. This is also a massive problem in the One Piece anime which is 70% padding and opening credits on any given episode.
And like I tried to explain, it's not JUST the pacing, it's also the actual content, the feel of Toriyama's material versus what the anime makes up whole cloth. It's just completely different.
If you haven't actually read it to see the sheer difference, and what that dividing line is, and to really understand just how much the filler weakens it and why it feels different, then no, you can't comment on the difference between Toriyama's involvement or the lack thereof.
I don't think the story has had tension since we learned the Dragon Balls can bring characters back to life.
Series managed just fine. Knowing that someone died can be brought back didn't matter much. It had rules like "you can only die once". Earl on gathering the dragonballs was a big undertaking and an entirely lengthy adventure to get that reward. It did things like kill the dragon, kill Piccollo and thus Kami and the dragonballs… had a villain from the future where the dragonballs already failed to make a difference... and then later had a cosmic level threat that could hit up the afterlife so it didn't matter. The character struggles and the the menace of the villains was still there. It got mitigated a bit by the end once they had a whole mess of wishes from two different planets to play with, but they still kept you invested in the characters and their stuggles. This entire tournament trying to play any stakes at all with universes being erased when we know that will be undone is silly.
And that's why this super lengthy year long tournament arc doesn't work. There's no drama or risk. It's why Zamasu was the only credible threat the series has had, even for a little while. It's also why Beerus and Whis being super friendly to the leads is a huge problem, when they're standing on the sidelines and just not getting involved because a conflict is below them, it makes things like Frieza attacking not personal or with anytension at all. This entire arc just being a stalling match until Goku and Jiren fight and literally nothing else mattering because they can solo everyone else just makes it all feel pointless and toothless.
I don't think it'd work for me no matter what changes there are. It's always in the back of my head and the only thing I can do is just see if the journey there is entertaining enough.
I'll just continue to be a "fake fan" "who knows nothing" and "is objectively wrong" in my little corner here. Heard that when trying to engage DB fans a lot. Really, really makes me not want to read the manga.
I didn't use a single one of those phrases? You're bringing some bitterness from other forums to this one.
But yes, if you haven't read the manga to compare, then you can't comment on the differences, you just haven't experienced it for yourself.
That's probably also why you're having a hard time with getting what Toriyama personally brings to the table and what the anime does not.
It's fine if you prefer anime over reading, that's your preference. But in Dragonball's case, with its history of padding and varying dub quality, its just not the same product.
Now, you look over at something like My Hero Academia or the Hunter X Hunter animes, those are pretty much perfect representations of their mangas that completely nail it, are paced super tightly, have modern quality dubs that actually get the characters right and have minimal filler. You watch those you're not missing anything and can comment on the manga's feel just fine. Those cases are arguably better than their manga counterparts.
I don't think I tried to compare it? I just feel like it wouldn't be any better.
It's not you. I did say my thinking is kind of shallow here because of my own perspective. I've just seen a similar attitude so many times at this point, it's annoying.
I also don't have time for 100s of chapters of manga for a story I already know the events of and am not much of a manga fan in general outside of series I really love, but that's another thing.
DB is not one of my all-time favourites.
Gonna try to get to it eventually, tho.
My, my. Despite not disagreeing with a single of Robby's words, and despite how much he wrote, I still have the feeling that only a small fraction is written about why DBS is such a mediocre mess.
Original DB is far from flawless, but instead of removing these flaws, DBS not only keeps them, but also adds new ones. Like exactly what Robby described.
Akira Toriyama never had any longterm plans where the journey would go, but he had his Toriyama-ness to make it somehow work. DBS on the other hand has absolutely nothing. It has no proper story structure, character arcs, thematically dense writing or anything. Instead it's just a generic piece of shit that basically lives solely from callbacks to the original. Like we get great "character arcs" a la "Is Vegeta going back to his old days and working for Freeza again?" And the narrative was completely serious about it. Btw did I ever say how much I loathe timeco's avatar for that one picture is the absolute embodiment of DBSuper's shittiness.
When I watched the Champa arc these days, I really liked that scene where that dude sang the hymn. I really liked the humour, so I thought the that Super actually can add something good. That is, for a few seconds. Until I remembered that this exactly was the same gag Toriyama made at the beginning of the very first tournament. Really, DBS can add nothing aside from callbacks to properly justify its existence, sadly!
A quality of Goku's I've always liked is that he took things serious, when the situation called for being serious - in contrast to Luffy who goofs around quite a bit. You could depend on him to lead and to make the right choices.
Super's Goku however is the reason why universes are being deleted from existence, yet he's having the time of his life, blissfully scouting for a new opponent to further his selfish needs. With Budokai, just as now our heroes often faced never-before-seen opponents, but it wasn't about those them, it was about our heroes' personal growth. In this tournament few are there for any reason other than to save their own Universe, and it's hard to get invested in that when the main villains are a pair of children playing at a game. And having to watch and get excited at Vegeta fighting an opponent with like only 5% of his total strength.
Raditz's movements were too fast for Roshi, how is he even able to follow anything …
A quality of Goku's I've always liked is that he took things serious, when the situation called for being serious - in contrast to Luffy who goofs around quite a bit. You could depend on him to lead and to make the right choices.
You mean like when he gave a senzu bean to Cell because he wanted to see him fight Gohan at peak strenght? Or when he didnt took the medicine from Trunks because he didnt see the point on it?
He also kind of let Piccolo and Vegeta go, let Freeza reach 100% and instead of killing him gave him energy and accepted Vegeta's challange eventhough that would lead to Buu's resurrection.
Starting the tournament is innocent in comparison because universal destruction is pretty far-fetched. Zeno destroyed a whole timeline filled with Zamasus, which was the villain of the arc prior to that. With everything else he's done, he was in a situation where the stakes were already high.
Or when he forgave Vegeta, the ginyus and Freezer. Or Raditz.
Or when he followed Babidi's plan because he wanted to face Buu.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
The only logical one was Piccolo, because it meant killing Kami, and having to take his job. How he figured it out, as Kami didn't told him and its not battle related is a mistery.
Ah, right, yeah. I forgot Kami.
We all know by the end of this Goku is probably going to fight as hard as possible for his universe to survive. He's selfish, but we've had plenty of moments this arc to show he's not cold or indifferent. He just has specific selfish traits.
Now that I think about it, when it comes to criticism for Super, I mostly disagree with stuff that the prior series did quite a bit.
If you even think about the power scaling a little, it falls apart by the time of Freeza.
DB introduces new powerful enemies without explanation for their power constantly.
The Dragon Balls' powers could be used in much smarter ways to begin with and if you think about them, the plot kind of crumbles, too.
Stuff like that.
Ultimately, it's again, down to how much it bothers you individually.
Robby brought up the no tension aspect, but I personally genuinely felt tension in particular in the FT arc and there have been some very excellent highlights in the ToP for me.
Jiren as a character is dull right now, but I think he's genuinely a believable threat. Imo, it's entertaining as a spectacle and has some great character moments. 109-120 has been a blast for me personally. I don't groan at how slow this stuff is anymore, instead I'm happy over some character having a character arc or a cool action scene.
But you guys obviously disagree - each to their own in the end.
Perhaps Goku is going through a Saiyan midlife crisis? idk
I do get confused whenever people say even the [Japanese included] anime of Z makes Goku "too heroic", in contrast to Toriyama and the manga. Is it seen more in the movies?
He's a simpleminded mountain hick that loves a good fight.
I even like some of the filler. Early DBZ had a Gohan flashback of how Goku taught Gohan about healing plants.
There was the filler scene where Goku kissed Chichi in the Cell arc. The Cell arc had a filler episode where we saw Goku and Chichi together with baby Gohan.
In the episode guides these all were listed as filler.
I feel like these make Goku a more rounded character. He cares about fighting, but he's good towards his family and friends when he is around.
You mean like when he gave a senzu bean to Cell because he wanted to see him fight Gohan at peak strength?
Sure, but he soon paid for that mistake. With his own life.
Everything else is largely just mercy, hope and reluctance to kill. I don't have an issue with that.
And yes, Goku during the Buu saga started making Vegeta-like mistakes.
Idk, Goku seemed pretty content raising Gohan all those years pre-Z. And then training Gohan - whom he then abandon in favor Uub, as you naturally do when the incarnation of your greatest foe shows up.
There was the filler scene where Goku kissed Chichi in the Cell arc.
Oh lord, that just reminded me of that episode in Super where Goku and Vegeta discuss whether they have ever kissed a girl, if I remember correctly. You don't have to kiss to make children but good lord, who writes this …
As mediocre and dissappointing Super often is, I’d still rate it above Toriyama’s Bardock monstrosity. What was he thinking???
Also he wrote Resurrection F, which was devoid of charm as well. He’s only doing it for the money that he can offshore on the Bahamas these days. No wonder he and Toei are so close now.
Oh lord, that just reminded me of that episode in Super where Goku and Vegeta discuss whether they have ever kissed a girl, if I remember correctly. You don't have to kiss to make children but good lord, who writes this …
I believe Goku saw someone (Gohan?) kissing and said ewww gross, and Vegeta asked why he's grossed out and Goku admits to never kissing Chichi and Vegetas like, but you have kids, and Goku states thats different then kissing and Vegeta is just baffled by it.
As mediocre and dissappointing Super often is, I’d still rate it above Toriyama’s Bardock monstrosity. What was he thinking???
This, so much this. I always thought he actually inserted him into manga because he liked his concept. And then he officially introduces him into his universe 20+ years later… and the only thing that stays is that he looks like Goku with a scar on his cheek. Why would he do it? Why would anyone do it?
The kissing thing can have multiple interpertations in Japanese because it is such a context-sensitive langauge.
Goku basically saw Trunks give Mai a Senzu by mouth-feeding her, and he said he's never kissed Chichi "that" way. Which is a legitimately strange way of "kissing" someone.
It's Goku and Vegeta talking past each other.
It can be interpreted of Goku having never kissed Chichi, but that's also kinda strange considering they have two kids and ignoring context of the exchange. Maybe some Japanese speakers can correct me, but that's what I've seen talked about.