Anyone who thinks Super and classic Dragon Ball are on the same levels should seriously ask themselves this: Do you think in 30 years time someone (either kid or adult) would care about Super?
Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
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Or maybe you just grew up? Maybe after DBZ ended and you watched other shows, shows with actual good storytelling and plot and you forgot what Dragon Ball actually was, and not what your nostalgia tells you it is.
I love Super, probably because I go into it knowing EXACTLY what it is, and my expectations are low enough that I can enjoy it. Yet that is just me, and if you don't like it, that's cool.
Dragon Ball is not made for ME, a white western man who grew up with the botched DBZ dubs during the Golden Age. It's for the next generation, for new children to discover and enjoy like we did. For young parents to share it with their own children and enjoy. If Super gives us long term fans a wink and a nod, then it's great. But old school fans of all fandoms need to stop trying to make their shows "grow up" with them, and accept that some things are really just meant for children.
Please note that this isn't an attack on you personally, but on the relative attitude of the western fanbase in general; because let' be BRUTALLY honest here. Do you think those Japanese animators and Toei are really sitting in the boardroom going. 'I wonder how those 20 year old westerns will think of THIS!"
well said, it was pretty much how I fell about it too
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lol at anyone who thinks dragon ball was ever well-written or consistent
Toriyama can make stuff fun, but a good writer he is not. -
Hell, Ben 10 is marketed to 10 year olds and has better writing, characters and consistency than this nonsense.
I'm pretty sure you mean "had".
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the most i remember about ben 10 was that Ben was an asshole and Gwen was an asshole
and that the grandpa was voiced by the Colonelthe good ol' days of cartoon writing, to be sure
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I'm pretty sure you mean "had".
I was referring to the first series, the one when they're kids, so yeah, had.
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lol at anyone who thinks dragon ball was ever well-written or consistent
Toriyama can make stuff fun, but a good writer he is not.You can question the logic, or the ad-hoc attitude of the writing, but Dragonball emerged as the most popular manga in shounen jump for the majority of its run. That's not possible without good characterisation, creativity, and a well paced plot that is engaging and makes readers feel invested in the characters. All of which are key elements of 'good writing'.
I'm baffled that you guys actually seem to think Super holds ground compared to DB and DBZ. It just doesn't. Without the DB intellectual property's attached to it, would ANYONE be watching? I seriously doubt it, because if it weren't dragonball, it would be a sub-par attempt at a shonen action series with uninteresting characters and lots of flashy lights. Like, Fairytail, but with half the originality because Fairytail invented all its character from scratch, while Super is using previously existing characters.
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would anyone have watched Z-era dragonball in japan if it didn't have the name?
remove the legacy and it's just musclemen punching, screaming at each other, and firing beams -
would anyone have watched Z-era dragonball in japan if it didn't have the name?
remove the legacy and it's just musclemen punching, screaming at each other, and firing beamsMan, you dont know how wrong you are.
Its adults whom value more pre-Z DB, what today's little kids enjoy is the Vegeta and Freezer arcs.
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ah yes dragonball
the series where one of our main characters prevails by virtue of not being drawn with a nosea real thinkin' man's manga, you see
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ah yes dragonball
the series where one of our main characters prevails by virtue of not being drawn with a nosea real thinkin' man's manga, you see
You are pretty much missing the point here.
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ah yes dragonball
the series where one of our main characters prevails by virtue of not being drawn with a nosea real thinkin' man's manga, you see
And another triumph's by having his girlfriend's breasts get exposed so his future master can drench his invisible opponent in nose blood.
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I shed a tear when the perverted transforming pig saved the day by wishing for a pair of women's underwear.
So much emotion and build-up to that moment, it was a masterpiece in character development, really. -
would anyone have watched Z-era dragonball in japan if it didn't have the name?
remove the legacy and it's just musclemen punching, screaming at each other, and firing beamsYou're being disingenuous. DBZ's writing, while certainly not perfect, has many twists and turns, and singlehandedly captivated audiences in the US, despite them being not particularly well acquainted with DB. The characters, including the new ones, and especially the new villains, are iconic. The adventures are memorable. The transformations, while overdone in the latter half, were interesting and exciting, and usually well-forshadowed before they happened.
Just for reference, without mentioning DB at all:
It is revealed our main character is an alien
Main character is killed by his former rival while they both save the day from an alien invader.
Main character trains in heaven as brutal villains from space come to slaughter humanity.
Both villains are interesting characters, get fleshed out, one dies a the hand of his partner, many of the cast are killed, our main character comes back at the nick of time and saves the day in a monumental battle, which establishes the key rival for the rest of the show.
Everyone then travels to an alien planet to save their fallen friends, as our Deus Ex Machina is on that planet.
Brutal Space Emperor with an army appears, As does the Alien they fought in the last battle. Unlikely alliance is forged with former villain. Everyone wants the Deus Ex Machina.
Space Emperor murders former villain, kills off main character's best friend, and reveals himself to be nigh invincible after unveiling his true power through transformations. Main character saves the day with the most iconic transformation in anime history, and saves the universe from Brutal space emperor who wanted immortality.
etc. etc. etc. until the Buu saga which is kinda lame.All those story beats are compelling. Aside from Beerus' arrival, perhaps Zeno's appearance, and Goku's latest transformation… nothing in Super compares. It just doesn't. It's a less compelling, less interesting, less risk-taking series, with clichè characters, and is frankly is inferior. Why do you insist on defending it, how long has it been since you read the DB manga, it's leagues above this trash. :wassat:
EDIT: also, do you not understand comedy? Are you just.. against gags in what is initially a gag manga? I don't understand the criticism.
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westerners liked DBZ because it was macho dudes beating each other up and firing beams, i didn't know a damn kid that cared about the writing
why do you think broly even has a fanbase, it sure isn't because of how compelling his (lack of) character is
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etc. etc. etc. until the Buu saga which is kinda lame.
EDIT: also, do you not understand comedy? Are you just.. against gags in what is initially a gag manga? I don't understand the criticism.
Well, doesn't it undermine your own point to taut the twists and turns, to say DB is more nuanced than what Ruin was implying, then add "the comedy" too as another positive?
Buu saga is certainly when Toriyama just went on cruise control, but it has plenty of comedy. Those who hated how too serious Cell and the Androids felt usually have a bit more positive things to say.
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westerners liked DBZ because it was macho dudes beating each other up and firing beams, i didn't know a damn kid that cared about the writing
why do you think broly even has a fanbase, it sure isn't because of how compelling his (lack of) character is
Macho dudes beating eachother up doesn't get kids coming back to the TV every day to watch the next episode. The looming threat of the sayans and whether Goku can get back to earth in time to save his friends from Nappa's brutal slaughter of everyone he loves, and the expectation of seeing Goku's new powers on display as he saves them… that kept people coming. Rooting for the hero, wanting their favourite character to get stronger and succeed in saving the world.
Sure, people then will question powerlevels and that bs, but that only happens when people are invested in the characters and care about the world enough that they start thinking beyond what's on the screen, and into speculation. VS battles, new transformation possibilities, whether Vegeta is stronger than Goku.. that's all a biproduct of a compelling show with characters people care about. If the whole series were Broly, nobody would care. But since people care about Goku & co, and are defensive about him being the strongest etc, when a stronger foe showed up he became a fan favourite for being 'the one goku couldn't beat without trickery'.
Besides, kids aren't talking about 'the writing being good' BECAUSE THEY'RE KIDS. That doesn't mean the writing isn't good, they're watching, it must be at least somewhat good or they'd get bored of it! :getlost:
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Well, doesn't it undermine your own point to taut the twists and turns, to say DB is more nuanced than what Ruin was implying, then add "the comedy" too as another positive?
Buu saga is certainly when Toriyama just went on cruise control, but it has plenty of comedy. Those who hated how too serious Cell and the Androids felt usually have a bit more positive things to say.
Early dragonball was a gag manga. Later Dragonball was not so much a gag manga. I've got nothing against comedy, but that's not why people watched DBZ, while it is very much why people watched DB. So Ruin can't say 'ah the comedy is bad and illogical' to discredit DB, because that's the point, it's was a comedy manga.
I'm not sure what your point about the Buu saga is really? What are you suggesting? Are you trying to say that a series can't have a good plot, compelling protagonists, etc if it occassionally delves into comedic relief? I don't see how the existance of comedy subtracts to my point in the slightest. One Piece has plenty of comedy, yet it also has a well executed plot, high stakes, and good characters. The existance of one doesn't make the other any less valid :wassat:
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fwiw i'm arguing (well, "arguing") against both the idea that Z's writing can stand on its own and that DB was better written in general
I wouldn't even have a piccolo avatar if i didn't love the series, but trying to give the show more depth than it has is pretty lol -
Macho dudes beating eachother up doesn't get kids coming back to the TV every day to watch the next episode.
It's kind of hard to believe this when some of the same people who like DBZ also like Fist Of The North Star and JoJo which are known for this.
If the whole series were Broly, nobody would care.
Well sure at least to where the half of the fanbase who actually acknowledges Broly was a shitty character who had nothing going for him beyond his design and overpowered ability.
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man if fist of the north star were somehow shown on toonami it woulda been the hypest shit to dumb kids
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fwiw i'm arguing (well, "arguing") against both the idea that Z's writing can stand on its own and that DB was better written in general
I wouldn't even have a piccolo avatar if i didn't love the series, but trying to give the show more depth than it has is pretty lolAnd I'm arguing that both Z and DB have far far more merit to them that the atrociousness that is Super. But seriously, this discussion isn't worth having, I doubt I can change your mind. You've failed to answer my criticisms of Super, you've failed to prove Super's merit in any way, your whole argument seems to hinge on bashing DB and DBZ to convince me they're as bad as Super. Don't be ridiculous, they're miles better. Apples and Oranges. One Piece and Fairytail.
EDIT: Did you… did you just imply FoTNS and Jojo are also watched because 'buff dudes fighting'? As if they're not good series in their own right? And oh the shock, anime fans (90% of which like DB) also like other shounen fighting anime! Please, enlighten me with any more of your gems.
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why on god's green earth should i care to argue the merits of a japanese children's cartoon to some asshole on the internet
i swear some people just get off on arguing and trying to seem more intellectual -
why on god's green earth should i care to argue the merits of a japanese children's cartoon to some asshole on the internet
i swear some people just get off on arguing and trying to seem more intellectualSo lets get this straight: You say something about a japanese cartoon. You defend it when people call you out. You refuse to back it up, or concede. You get annoyed that people disagree, and have the courtesy of giving you reasons for the disagreement. You offer no comeback, call them a$$holes instead, continue to insist you're right, then belittle the topic of conversation for being about 'japanese children's cartoons' while ON A MANGA FORUM.
Good job mate, you've done good for losing all credibility. Tchh people like you piss me off.
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did i make it seem that i was annoyed at all during all this? I've been having a jolly good time this whole romp.
didn't want to miscommunicate that at all, but you seem pretty bad at detecting intention, so i'll let it slide. -
Episode #114 is the story of Takahashi Yuuya doing his damnedest to salvage a lot of weak, rushed key animation drawings and doing a good enough job. Well, that and making my girl Kale fuckin' awesome. I must have her big, buff gay imouto self continue to be drawn so lovingly.
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did i make it seem that i was annoyed at all during all this? I've been having a jolly good time this whole romp.
didn't want to miscommunicate that at all, but you seem pretty bad at detecting intention, so i'll let it slide."why on god's green earth should i care to argue the merits of a japanese children's cartoon to some asshole on the internet
i swear some people just get off on arguing and trying to seem more intellectual"If this doesn't denote annoyance, what does? Also, stop bloody insulting me! First I'm an asshole on the internet, now I'm pretty bad at detecting intention. Newsflash, f*%° you.
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It was a rhetorical question followed by an honest observation, duh
plus it's only an insult if you take it as one
I'm from New York, bud. we say swear words here, just a fact of life -
Great episode of Dragon Ball Super this week.
! I'm already like Kafla from what been shown so far. Goku's reaction how fast Kafla is was a great moment. Freeza continues to be some of the best parts of this arc.
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Goku shot a Ki blast from the feet, that means that he will do this again in the arc
I hope.
DO IT TOEI. -
I really enjoyed this episode! I was smiling practically the entire time
! Goku playing mentor to Caulifla and Kale is honestly pretty great. Their fight had some actual action going on and his moment where he tells freeza to sit the fuck down and wait his turn was great.
Kafla is precious too. I like her already.
! I like the little pieces of Vegeta vs. Toppo as well. I really hope that gets a focus episode soon, even if I'm plenty happy with Kafla rockin' out. -
Loved this episode, these girls continue to be of my main highlights for this arc.
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Goku shot a Ki blast from the feet, that means that he will do this again in the arc
I hope.
[qimg]http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/c/cd/Dragonball-Episode146_204.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081220020354[/qimg]
DO IT TOEI.Question since I know of this but can't remember when… was this filler? I remember a joke video of him shooting one out of his ass too lol I'll post it if I find it.
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Goku's feet Kamehameha was in the manga.
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Anyone who thinks Super and classic Dragon Ball are on the same levels should seriously ask themselves this: Do you think in 30 years time someone (either kid or adult) would care about Super?
I never get questions like this.
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Against Piccolo Jr.
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Takahashi is a monster, she should be the new character designer and not Yamamuro
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Against Piccolo Jr.
Admittedly, haven't fully read/ watched dragon ball since I was younger. Though I did at least watch it all when I was younger cuz I didn't want to be a "poser"
And I use that loosely -
That was great.
Again, nobody was eliminated, but they did some more to make Kale more rounded of a character. In the end, she's a Saiyan, too and can be fierce in her own right. The interactions between Caulifla and Kale were all very full of personality.
Potara would be really strong, so I think them facing Goku like that makes sense. I also feel like them having the Potara makes sense considering Champa's character - he would use any tactics to win. I also feel like she's probably going to be out next week.
Shout out for the U3 hero, I want to see him team up with Toppo.
More importantly, tho, the animation was amazing. This was probably the best-animated fight in all of DB. It combined the best art from DBZ with some of the great fluidity from Super's best fights. It's not just animation, either. The choreography was excellent, too. From Kale's and Caulifla's various combo attacks to Goku's various moves.
Tl; dr EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Much better execution-wise than it seemed from a summary.
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When reading the discussions about new installments for old franchises I sometimes wonder if there are 70 y. o. who have been reading e. g. Spider Man comics for the past 50 years only to complain how they do not hold a candle to originals and aren't true to their spirit.
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Are you SURE it's not that Super is just a terribly written cash-grab, and Toriyama's too old (and somewhat senile, I suspect) to dedicate time and effort to a well constructed story? The original, while admittedly occassionally silly, was actually fairly well-written, had compelling and original characters, both villainous and not, and still holds up writing-wise to most current anime and manga.
It's not that Super is 'marketed to kids', or that 'we're not the target demographic'. It's just that Super has lazy writing, is inconsistent with its powers, every new character seems to be a trope instead of actually being developed, and it's just generally really awful at maintaining the suspension of disbelief in its audience. Regardless of the audience's age, Super is badly written. Has nothing to do with 'oh don't hate because you were a og dragonball fan this isn't meant for you'. It's just about expecting a tv show that has relatable, established characters, and makes minimal amounts of sense, while getting a tv show that is milking its IP's into the ground while producing worthless hot trash and maintaining itself by pandering to fans with transformations and flashy explosions instead of a half-decent plot or characters.
Seriously, can you tell me what Jiren's character is? Or Toppo's? Or Kale's? Or Vegeta's? Or even Gokuu? Hint Hint, if their character throughout the series can be summarized in 3 adjectives, or by referring to an established TV trope, they're not developed.
Invincible, Stoic, Power-ranger.
Righteous, Fabulous, Power-ranger.
Underconfident, Imouto, Gimmicky Power-up where she changes into a Super strong Yandere.
Dumb-but-confident, Battle-loving, Reckless?
Prideful, My Bulma, Angry!Goku and Vegeta are there too. Because their characters are 2D and Stale, and seemingly are carbon cutouts of their characters in DBZ.
To say the writing isn't piss-poor compared to DB and DBZ is ridiculous. Like come on. You're not actually serious are you? Just go back and watch any fighting scene from the tournaments in DB and compare it to even the best of scenes in DBS. It simply doesn't hold up. Or watch just one episode of the Saiyan Saga. The tension, the stakes, the dread, the characters actually seeming worried about what will happen. None of that in Super, and the bloody Universe is going to get annihilated. We've gone from being terrified of the Saiyans killing the everyone on earth to Roshi and Krillin joking around on the sidelines while it's clearer and clearer that their universe is doomed and they're all going to die because Jiren outclasses everyone.
Not to mention the animation being utter garbage for the majority of the show.
EDIT: The only character whose been written well throughout Super, in my opinion, is Beerus. Because he actually feels like more than a couple of adjectives and tropes thrown into a character design. You could argue Whis and Caulifla's characters have also not been terrible… but they're still way underdeveloped, and the way they've drawn Caulifla's eyes (like two white stickers stuck to her face) hurts every time I see it.
I'm sorry, but all I read from what you said is.
"WAH!!! Dragon Ball Super didn't cater to MY specific idea of what Dragon Ball is! WAHHH!'
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DBZ is great for what it is, especially with the nostalgia factor. And for me and I'm sure for most anime fans from the western region it's the godfather, but it definitely lacks in writing and plot., at least looking back.
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the art and the lines of episode 114 are the closest dbs has ever looked like dbz. Did anyone else notice this? Who drew and animated this episode?
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Dragon ball has tons of plot holes, retcons, asspulls, etc To act as if it's the peak of great of writing is laughable. Toriyama literally made everything up as he went along. No one remembers Dragon ball for it's writing. It's remembered for the fights.
@Ruin:why on god's green earth should i care to argue the merits of a japanese children's cartoon to some asshole on the internet
i swear some people just get off on arguing and trying to seem more intellectualJust put him on ignore. That's what I did lol.
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Yuya Takahashi animated it.
Still in EEEEEEEEEEEEEE mode. This episode had more inventive fight choreography than most of Z and it looked better because it actually moved instead of just having really good art.
I didn't mention the interactions between Freeza and the Saiyans in my previous post, but they were a blast, too.
I still wish we'd learned more about Kale and Caulifla in terms of backstory and why they are so attached to each other, which is my criticism of the episode, but it was much better than the one-note Broly references in episode 100.
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This episode was freaking GREAT. Excellent animation and Kale and Caulifa are just awesome.
But, to quote YTAS Tristan..
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the art and the lines of episode 114 are the closest dbs has ever looked like dbz. Did anyone else notice this? Who drew and animated this episode?
Praise be to Takahashi. He was also responsible for the Goku vs Jiren animation I think.
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ToP Frieza is by far the best character I have ever witnessed. So enjoying him.
And I do not give a damn about the strange power scaling… I enjoy this whole stuff to the max.
Can't wait when Kafla defuses... Freeza will be there
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This episode looked great. A lot of parts looked straight out of Z in the best way possible. There was even a scene where Krillin didn't look totally off.
One part I found unintentionally amusing was when Goku said "I can't stop shaking. It must be her Saiyan instinct." and he stopped shaking right when he finishes the sentence xD
Caulifla is still the best of the U6 Saiyans.
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Very nice episode.
I think that super is everything that should and should not be moving forward from Z.
Should: As in the expansion of the universe(s), the challenges, even the humour.
Should not: Trying to please fans with superficial visual representations, and not creating more dread from the current situation. -
When this is over, we need a filler episode where the universe 6 Saiyans try and get their driver's licenses
Kale berserks when she sees some asshole cut caulifla off, caulifla driving like a madwoman, repeated cuts back Cabba stuck in traffic because he's trying to merge but keeps letting other people go ahead of him