What are you going on about? I wasn't comparing the series. Just listing some characters with "personality".
At least follow the conversation before jumping in, and being butthurt that I don't look at HXH through some special glass.
Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes
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Link is broken.
But nice try though.
With that said, I am gonna go, and bang my head against the wall.
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Glad this is over.
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You mean the generic psychotic killer-clown? Hisoka is nothing more than a generic one-note character that has no real identity, or personality outside of the killer-clown trope, which maybe the "fun" part of his character for some, but in terms of character-work, he is nothing worth talking about.
As for the character-work having depth, it's about the same as core-elements of HXH; lengthy words that cover the shallow core.
Maybe the characters have "depth" on paper, but they certainly aren't implemented in the medium for me to really give a crap. I don't care about what makes a mentally retarded character so mentally retarded if it's conveyed through the lazy-direct-monologues for pages upon pages.
I can't even remember if the series has actual tight pieces of dialogues that provide relevant insightfulness rather than rumbling on for hours in order to make a rather simple point.
I agree about Hisoka. But why is your post ignoring every other characters?
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And this is why this thread stays closed.
If ya'll don't get more polite I think it may need to go back to being closed till the chapters actually start coming.
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You mean the generic psychotic killer-clown? Hisoka is nothing more than a generic one-note character that has no real identity, or personality outside of the killer-clown trope, which maybe the "fun" part of his character for some, but in terms of character-work, he is nothing worth talking about.
As for the character-work having depth, it's about the same as core-elements of HXH; lengthy words that cover the shallow core.
Maybe the characters have "depth" on paper, but they certainly aren't implemented in the medium for me to really give a crap. I don't care about what makes a mentally retarded character so mentally retarded if it's conveyed through the lazy-direct-monologues for pages upon pages.
I can't even remember if the series has actual tight pieces of dialogues that provide relevant insightfulness rather than rumbling on for hours in order to make a rather simple point.
I'm curious what your standard for a good character is. Like could you give some examples of ones you think are done way better than HxH?
HxH doesn't have the strongest cast by a long shot, but calling a character like Hisoka generic or one-note is a stretch. And it's not like you can't always expect more from a series, but for a battle shonen with a huge cast by necessity, I think HxH does pretty well.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Looks like you gave a list that I missed. Gonna pour over it for a moment.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
16 characters of Luffy.
Hanamichi Sakuragi.
Onizuka Eikichi.
Hinata Shouyo.
Nausicaa.
Megumi Noda.
So mostly main characters?
As much as I like One Piece, I don't think that Luffy has a whole lot of depth. I'd say that he's the definition of a one or two note character. Granted that it's a fun couple of notes he plays, there isn't much to him besides the funny dumb side and the determined shonen protag side. I don't think his backstory gives him much depth either, beyond describing his circumstances, since his core was already in place and didn't change much through it.
Admittedly haven't read GTO, Haikyuu, or Slam Dunk (or Nausicaa in a long time), but comparing main characters against supporting cast is kind of unfair.
I've watched through half of the Nodame anime, and as fun as Nodame is, she mostly acts like a mascot character more than anything (to the point that she basically was when she dressed like a Mongoose). I dunno how much she changes in the latter half, but from what I saw, she's mostly pretty static, except in her performance. I wouldn't call her generic, though, since she's a kind of female character I don't see too often.
A lot of the HxH cast is kind of like that, actually. Pretty static, but the sorts of characters you don't often see. That's what Hisoka is. Sure we don't have a backstory for him or anything, but the way that he can switch roles from antag to protag without changing his fundamental personality is pretty rare and interesting. You've got villains that have friends, or a life outside their villainy, protagonists with their own goals and motives outside of the main adventure, characters who aren't strictly defined by their place in the story. I wouldn't call that generic, since that isn't the standard for shonen.
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Oh boy, here comes the butthurt HXH fanboys.
Might as well start banging my head against the wall now.
Dude, you really have to attempt to stop being so confrontational. It's fine to not be a fan of Hunter x Hunter but you should expect some annoyed replies in an HxH thread when your argument is that HxH characters don't have any personality.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
And this is why this thread stays closed.
I think it may need to go back to being closed till the chapters actually start coming.
I was thinking the same thing if this just becomes "Let's bash Togashi until June 26".
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I'm curious what your standard for a good character is. Like could you give some examples of ones you think are done way better than HxH?
HxH doesn't have the strongest cast by a long shot, but calling a character like Hisoka generic or one-note is a stretch. And it's not like you can't always expect more from a series, but for a battle shonen with a huge cast by necessity, I think HxH does pretty well.
I agree with him on Hisoka though. He is the cliché "I enjoy killing very much to the point I'm obsessed of it" character. He might not be in every shonens, but he's there in too many fictions in pop culture though. At least the Joker in Batman is making a speech about nihilism sometimes, but Hisoka just goes "I like killing somehow" which doesn't even exist (cannot) in real life.
I hope I'm explaining this correctly.I was thinking the same thing if this just becomes "Let's bash Togashi until June 26".
Is this thread really turning into a "let's bash HxH because uhhr" thread sometimes?
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Folks, Togashi went from not using assistants, to using a TON of assistants a couple years ago. Last go around some of the chapters had entire swathes of pages Togashi didn't draw a single line on, and a bunch where he'd just draw one or two scribble characters amidst an obvious assistant background.
That is not entierly true. Togashi always used assistants and he even mentioned one or two.
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I agree with him on Hisoka though. He is the cliché "I enjoy killing very much to the point I'm obsessed of it" character. He might not be in every shonens, but he's there in too many fictions in pop culture though. At least the Joker in Batman is making a speech about nihilism sometimes, but Hisoka just goes "I like killing somehow" which doesn't even exist (cannot) in real life.
I hope I'm explaining this correctly.I agree with him too for a lot of HxH characters, but there is a way to have a discussion with people when they have differing opinions that shouldn't always turn into a scene.
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I agree with him on Hisoka though. He is the cliché "I enjoy killing very much to the point I'm obsessed of it" character. He might not be in every shonens, but he's there in too many fictions in pop culture though. At least the Joker in Batman is making a speech about nihilism sometimes, but Hisoka just goes "I like killing somehow" which doesn't even exist (cannot) in real life.
I hope I'm explaining this correctly.I know that murderclown is def a trope (Joker, Sweet Tooth, Gamzee, etc…), but Hisoka's role is something fundamentally different from the other examples, and pretty rare in general. He isn't a strict antagonist. He's been a scary murderclown, a rival of Gon's, an ally trying to take down a common enemy with Kurapika, a teammate in magical volleyball for fun, and then a scary murderclown again without any of that being inconsistent. He doesn't have a backstory or anything, and he's still a static character, but I don't agree with calling him generic or cliché when, as a character, he's doing different things from the rest.
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Well I'm trying to make people talk about the boat but that ship sailed a few pages ago.
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In terms of how 'real' his personality is… well I don't know any historical battle fetishists, but that part seems unique to HxH, being a world that is so defined by incredibly individually powerful fighters. I figure that much is more deconstruction of shonen than anything else. As a psychopath, I think he fits something semi-realistic in the sense that he's charismatic, self-centered, and lacks morals. I think that it's more important that he's interesting within the world of the story, though, than relatable as a human being. He's a product of a world that isn't exactly relatable.
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If there is anything I can enjoy in Hunter x Hunter, besides battles and the kind of almost philosophical developments like at the end of the chimera ants arc, it's the characters, actually. Although there is a lot of garbage to sit through (as in OP and other series with large casts), the more important characters always bring something to the table. Even if I don't really enjoy them (I don't like Ging at all, for example) I wouldn't call them badly written as characters (like I'd call many from Attack on Titan, which I enjoy more as a series, in general). The worst things I've found in HxH are the art quality (not the top notch stuff, but what we get a lot of the time), the paneling, the heaaaaavy as hell dialogue, which makes reading the series in bulk a chore, the dragged out story that constantly introduces new elements that become irrelevant later on (that Greed Island, man), the sometimes overly complicated powers, the lack of an overall direction for the story. If one could compare it to One Piece, it'd be like we had found the One Piece after Skypiea and then just kept sailing around, with each arc bringing a new story with no setup. Kind of like Bleach. Ichigo also had no overarching goal and there was not really any grand sense of direction to the story. There was defeating Aizen, for a while, like there was finding Ging here. But once that's done… Meh.
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In terms of how 'real' his personality is… well I don't know any historical battle fetishists, but that part seems unique to HxH, being a world that is so defined by incredibly individually powerful fighters. I figure that much is more deconstruction of shonen than anything else. As a psychopath, I think he fits something semi-realistic in the sense that he's charismatic, self-centered, and lacks morals. I think that it's more important that he's interesting within the world of the story, though, than relatable as a human being. He's a product of a world that isn't exactly relatable.
I agree with everything you say about Hisoka being a static, but unique, consistent, and charismatic character for the role(s) he does serve. In short, he's a simple character. But simple in a good way that is used very effectively, which a lot of writers could learn to apply to their own characters.
I think a more interesting example to discuss in the parameters of "personality" merits would be… Killua. Mainly whenever the plot doesn't focus on him being concerned about Gon/Alluka or his antagonism towards the Zoldycks. Because aside from those two recurring threads, his "personality" is rather one/two-note between being calm/tactical while giving out generic exposition, randomly playful like a kid, or occasionally showing off his savage side when underestimated. Which are traits/roles that feel, not bad, but generic and repetitive. Especially when a character as dynamic and endearing as Leorio gets sidelined a lot.
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If there is anything I can enjoy in Hunter x Hunter, besides battles and the kind of almost philosophical developments like at the end of the chimera ants arc, it's the characters, actually. Although there is a lot of garbage to sit through (as in OP and other series with large casts), the more important characters always bring something to the table. Even if I don't really enjoy them (I don't like Ging at all, for example) I wouldn't call them badly written as characters (like I'd call many from Attack on Titan, which I enjoy more as a series, in general). The worst things I've found in HxH are the art quality (not the top notch stuff, but what we get a lot of the time), the paneling, the heaaaaavy as hell dialogue, which makes reading the series in bulk a chore, the dragged out story that constantly introduces new elements that become irrelevant later on (that Greed Island, man), the sometimes overly complicated powers, the lack of an overall direction for the story. If one could compare it to One Piece, it'd be like we had found the One Piece after Skypiea and then just kept sailing around, with each arc bringing a new story with no setup. Kind of like Bleach. Ichigo also had no overarching goal and there was not really any grand sense of direction to the story. There was defeating Aizen, for a while, like there was finding Ging here. But once that's done… Meh.
Yeah, most Shonens start with a character having a clearly defined goal at the beginning, and then you spend the series exploring ways to get there. Gon's goal was to become a strong Hunter (check) and find his father (also check), so unless he defines another far off goal for himself, the story will pretty much feel like The Aimless Adventures of Gon.
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Togashi kinda wrote himself into a corner. I wonder if he just wanted to end it, but his editor told him to keep it open, or if he just decided that he wanted it to keep going for some other reason. I doubt he planned for Gon to find his dad and then let the series go on.
There's definitely interesting stuff in the world left to be explored, but it's def confusing not having an obvious end point in sight, especially since Togashi does take frequent breaks for whatever reason.
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I agree with him on Hisoka though. He is the cliché "I enjoy killing very much to the point I'm obsessed of it" character. He might not be in every shonens, but he's there in too many fictions in pop culture though. At least the Joker in Batman is making a speech about nihilism sometimes, but Hisoka just goes "I like killing somehow" which doesn't even exist (cannot) in real life.
I hope I'm explaining this correctly.He's not obsessed with killing. He's obsessed with breaking strong people. He doesn't turn every scenario he's in in a bloodbath. We've never seen an Hisoka scene similar to Uvogin's fight vs the mafia.
This makes him different from battle junkies like Kenpachi that point his blade to everything that moves. Most of the times he has killed someone in this manga is because he was directly confronted/challenged. He didn't show any interest in most of his opponents.
I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy killing, but the way he acts when he is fighting someone like Gon or Chrollo is diffetrnt from when he is fighting some random guy like that dude with the boomerang sickles or Killua's butler.This makes him different because it makes him a flexible character. He fought alongside the good guys in one of the arcs, and yet you cannot say that he was out of character.
A lot of people were complaining about him in GI, but everything he did there didn't contradict what was presented to us before.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Count:
I agree with everything you say about Hisoka being a static, but unique, consistent, and charismatic character for the role(s) he does serve. In short, he's a simple character. But in simple in a good way that is used very effectively, which a lot of writers could learn to apply to their own characters.
I think a more interesting example to discuss in the parameters of "personality" merits would be… Killua. Mainly whenever the plot doesn't focus on him being concerned about Gon/Alluka or his antagonism towards the Zoldycks. Because aside from those two recurring threads, his "personality" is rather one/two-note between being calm/tactical while giving out generic exposition, randomly playful like a kid, or occasionally showing off his savage side when underestimated. Which are traits/roles that feel, not bad, but generic and repetitive. Especially when a character as dynamic and endearing as Leorio gets sidelined a lot.
I actually agree with Killua, but I think he goes unnoticedbecause of his dynamic with Gon.
Both characters are kind of one dimensional in their own way, but they complement each other very well. They've spent most of the manga together, but I think if we eventually see an arc with killua alonr, his faults will be very exposed. -
Togashi kinda wrote himself into a corner. I wonder if he just wanted to end it, but his editor told him to keep it open, or if he just decided that he wanted it to keep going for some other reason. I doubt he planned for Gon to find his dad and then let the series go on.
There's definitely interesting stuff in the world left to be explored, but it's def confusing not having an obvious end point in sight, especially since Togashi does take frequent breaks for whatever reason.
It'll probably be short-term arc-focused goals to the end, unfortunately. Gon is more of a free spirit and not ambitious for some sort of leadership position or even becoming "the strongest", so I pretty much expect a rushed ending and epilogue after whichever arc Togashi chooses to be the last.
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Yeah, most Shonens start with a character having a clearly defined goal at the beginning, and then you spend the series exploring ways to get there. Gon's goal was to become a strong Hunter (check) and find his father (also check), so unless he defines another far off goal for himself, the story will pretty much feel like The Aimless Adventures of Gon.
Whenever I think about this, I actually see potential in the type of contrasting formula Hunter x Hunter has. Because while it doesn't start off with having a defined goal for Gon and Gon alone as a person you can instead put a twist on it by having, say, the first third or half of the whole series focus around that defined goal gradually getting formed as Gon undergoes a coming-of-age story while finding his dad. It would perfectly fit in with how many young people are brazenly or forcibly pushed into exploring the world without having a clear idea as to what they want to do, or even what they can do. While they are journeying in the external world, they are venturing in the internal mind and emotions to gradually learn new things, find what appeals to them, how to refine their flaws, and have all of that mesh together to find some purpose for everything that is being gained. Basically, Gon would need to find out what he would do as a Hunter for himself as a calling and not just for somebody else.
Of course, there needs to still be SOME sort of objective so the first big portion of the story isn't just mindlessly going from arc to arc without any consecutive progress, but that's what Gon's dream of finding his dad is for. But now that we've reached that point and it looks like that Gon isn't going to appear for years due to hiatuses… Yeah, that's disconcerting since it turns off reader immersion into thinking the story is really going anywhere. I still think my "coming of age" concept can still work, but not for too much longer if this arc really is only going to focus on Kurapika, the Phantom Troupe, Hisoka, who only amount to a big subplot at the end of the day than a real engrossing main objective. Otherwise, this portion of the series is going to feel like tying up loose ends almost like some sort of bloated epilogue.
Unless, I don't know, the Phantom Troupe become the Akatsuki and try to take over the world lol.
I actually agree with Killua, but I think he goes unnoticedbecause of his dynamic with Gon.
Both characters are kind of one dimensional in their own way, but they complement each other very well. They've spent most of the manga together, but I think if we eventually see an arc with killua alonr, his faults will be very exposed.Precisely. It goes unnoticed because he's always with Gon, and their dynamic is always interestingly developing. And the one arc where he is alone without Gon, his family shows up to still make an interesting dynamic for Killua (along with wanting to help Gon). While Gon is kind of two-dimensional, I still think he's quite better off than Killua because he can at least work in the same appealing shonen protagonist niche as Goku and Luffy that can adapt decently beyond just being friends with Killua. As long as he has other people like Kurapika or Leorio around, of course. He needs SOMEBODY to bounce his character off of like Luffy with the Straw Hats. Killua's issue is that he seems to only work with Gon and Gon alone besides maybe his family to a degree.
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This won't last past Christmas. Calling it now.
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@Count:
I agree with everything you say about Hisoka being a static, but unique, consistent, and charismatic character for the role(s) he does serve. In short, he's a simple character. But simple in a good way that is used very effectively, which a lot of writers could learn to apply to their own characters.
I think a more interesting example to discuss in the parameters of "personality" merits would be… Killua. Mainly whenever the plot doesn't focus on him being concerned about Gon/Alluka or his antagonism towards the Zoldycks. Because aside from those two recurring threads, his "personality" is rather one/two-note between being calm/tactical while giving out generic exposition, randomly playful like a kid, or occasionally showing off his savage side when underestimated. Which are traits/roles that feel, not bad, but generic and repetitive. Especially when a character as dynamic and endearing as Leorio gets sidelined a lot.
Interesting that you chose Killua as the one note and Leorio as dynamic and endearing. I would personally have those flipped haha. I actually consider Killua the main character with the most growth of the four, although he doesn't have a wide range of personality traits as you say. He is different at the end of the election arc from the hunter arc, which is apparent if you contrast how he interacts with Leorio and Kuripika in the beginning with how he interacts with the infiltration team during the chimera arc. His mental struggle when fighting strong opponents was one of the better parts of series because its not something most authors would have their strong characters deal with. Togashi did kind of ruin this thread with "it was all just Illumi's needle" being the ENTIRE reason for the conflict, but it was still very fascinating.
Leorio on the other hand is the stereotypical loud mouth comic relief character who isn't really as strong as the others but still tries, adds levity to scenes, and has maybe one or two serious scenes. I can understand why someone might like that type of character, but I don't see anything about him that you could say is interesting.
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I agree with him too for a lot of HxH characters, but there is a way to have a discussion with people when they have differing opinions that shouldn't always turn into a scene.
yes, he just shut down the thread by himself somehow. I'm just saying I agree on Hisoka but not the other characters (especially since he didn't quote any, and just focused on Hisoka when someone mentioned it). I thought he was trolling when he said "these shonen main-characters are better than any of the characters in HxH".
And overall, my point is that the psychology is deep and makes sense in HxH (not for Hisoka though) unlike other shonens.Yeah, most Shonens start with a character having a clearly defined goal at the beginning, and then you spend the series exploring ways to get there. Gon's goal was to become a strong Hunter (check) and find his father (also check), so unless he defines another far off goal for himself, the story will pretty much feel like The Aimless Adventures of Gon.
Or maybe Gon is just not the main character anymore. At least during this arc (because unless he's helped by Knov, I don't see how he gets in the boat now)
As a psychopath, I think he fits something semi-realistic in the sense that he's charismatic, self-centered, and lacks morals.
This is not what real life psychopath look like though. People like Hisoka do not exist, but people like Chrollo or Tserriednich make sense at least. I mean that these two just despise everyone.
btw, charism is overall subjective. I don't think he's charismatic at all.He's not obsessed with killing. He's obsessed with breaking strong people. He doesn't turn every scenario he's in in a bloodbath. We've never seen an Hisoka scene similar to Uvogin's fight vs the mafia.
This makes him different from battle junkies like Kenpachi that point his blade to everything that moves. Most of the times he has killed someone in this manga is because he was directly confronted/challenged. He didn't show any interest in most of his opponents.
I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy killing, but the way he acts when he is fighting someone like Gon or Chrollo is diffetrnt from when he is fighting some random guy like that dude with the boomerang sickles or Killua's butler.This makes him different because it makes him a flexible character. He fought alongside the good guys in one of the arcs, and yet you cannot say that he was out of character.
A lot of people were complaining about him in GI, but everything he did there didn't contradict what was presented to us before.Actually, Kenpachi wants to fight strong opponents too, because he likes that. That's the same thing. And GreedIsland felt like some vacation camp in the plot tbh.
Also, Hisoka has always been a deviant, crazy and eccentric character. And these are the reasons why people like him to be honest, not because "he can turn into an ally and an enemy". He breaks people, but that's just the last step of his "I like fighting and killing strong people" pattern. (btw, Chrollo was his first "serious" fight right?).
And, Hisoka is too much pretentious for me to like him. Tserriednich might be the one who'll kill him, according to his speeches against arrogance and shit. Maybe Togashi introduced Tserriednich to take Hisoka's place after all….. -
Interesting that you chose Killua as the one note and Leorio as dynamic and endearing. I would personally have those flipped haha. I actually consider Killua the main character with the most growth of the four, although he doesn't have a wide range of personality traits as you say. He is different at the end of the election arc from the hunter arc, which is apparent if you contrast how he interacts with Leorio and Kuripika in the beginning with how he interacts with the infiltration team during the chimera arc. His mental struggle when fighting strong opponents was one of the better parts of series because its not something most authors would have their strong characters deal with. Togashi did kind of ruin this thread with "it was all just Illumi's needle" being the ENTIRE reason for the conflict, but it was still very fascinating.
His mental struggle was definitely captivating, but like you said, it got spoiled by the needle instead of being a real traumatic psychological conflict. Not that it completely went to waste, but it's still a big stain. He has the most growth, but only in relation to his bond with Gon and his family. Not his actual individuality as a person, at least past the Hunter Exam arc where we saw him get insecure over Gon's progress and all of that. I don't find him much different as a person besides being bit more… friendly? And I could forgive that if his base individual personality was captivating, but I mentioned his traits and they're not that interesting.
He's a good complement to Gon, but I can't really care for Killua too much as his own character.
Leorio on the other hand is the stereotypical loud mouth comic relief character who isn't really as strong as the others but still tries, adds levity to scenes, and has maybe one or two serious scenes. I can understand why someone might like that type of character, but I don't see anything about him that you could say is interesting.
You're not wrong about Leorio being the loudmouth comic relief character, but the moments where he stands out from solely being that like when he distracted the Phantom Troupe in the Yorknew City arc, having his dream focused around something as humble as making affordable medicine and being a doctor, the bluff/deception tactics he used during the prison section of the Hunter Exam arc, and his affinity for Gon's safety in the Hunter Chairman Election arc (both when he punched Gin as a meta way for all the fans who thing Ging is a terrible father to get a comeuppance and when he saw that Gon was alright) are absolute standout moments that make him a standout character with very endearing depth. Not unlike that of Kuwabara in Togashi's previous series, Yu Yu Hakusho, who is probably the spiritual predecessor of Leorio (while Kurapika=Kurama, Killua=Hiei, Gon=Yusuke, although the latter two duos have personalities that are pretty different while sharing certain quirks/tropes).
But unfortunately, because he is used SO SPARINGLY, it's very easy to forget that he has those cool moments and only remember that he's the dumb loudmouth archetype that always gets in trouble. Those moments I highlighted assert the potential that he had to become a great character if utilized more often. Togashi really has something against having characters like Leorio and Kuwabara be frequently capable characters in their own right, and I'm completely fine with them not being as strong as their other main character peers.
Now, it makes more sense to focus on a character with as many major connections and capabilities as Killua over Leorio, and I do not ever think it's right for an author to force characters into story arcs if they don't have an organic purpose. But I still find it a shame since Killua's base individual personality is so… generic to me. This would all probably be remedied if Togashi didn't hype up Leorio as one of the main four characters in this deep quartet bond and instead as a more distant recurring supporting character.
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but calling a character like Hisoka generic or one-note is a stretch. And it's not like you can't always expect more from a series, but for a battle shonen with a huge cast by necessity, I think HxH does pretty well.
So mostly main characters?
As much as I like One Piece, I don't think that Luffy has a whole lot of depth. I'd say that he's the definition of a one or two note character. Granted that it's a fun couple of notes he plays, there isn't much to him besides the funny dumb side and the determined shonen protag side. I don't think his backstory gives him much depth either, beyond describing his circumstances, since his core was already in place and didn't change much through it.
Admittedly haven't read GTO, Haikyuu, or Slam Dunk (or Nausicaa in a long time), but comparing main characters against supporting cast is kind of unfair.
I've watched through half of the Nodame anime, and as fun as Nodame is, she mostly acts like a mascot character more than anything (to the point that she basically was when she dressed like a Mongoose). I dunno how much she changes in the latter half, but from what I saw, she's mostly pretty static, except in her performance. I wouldn't call her generic, though, since she's a kind of female character I don't see too often.
A lot of the HxH cast is kind of like that, actually. Pretty static, but the sorts of characters you don't often see. That's what Hisoka is. Sure we don't have a backstory for him or anything, but the way that he can switch roles from antag to protag without changing his fundamental personality is pretty rare and interesting. You've got villains that have friends, or a life outside their villainy, protagonists with their own goals and motives outside of the main adventure, characters who aren't strictly defined by their place in the story. I wouldn't call that generic, since that isn't the standard for shonen.
Simply because the character is whatever Togashi wants him to be at any given time. There is no real ground, writing or understanding that comes with his character. He acts simply because he acts.
And no, I don't think the character need extensive backstory. He could've easily had little pieces of dialogues that made him feel like an actual individual character, but he really has nothing of sorts. None of his dialogues serve him as a character.
So mostly main characters?
I didn't say I was comparing them. Just listing, as the poster asked, some characters that I think are good.
As much as I like One Piece, I don't think that Luffy has a whole lot of depth. I'd say that he's the definition of a one or two note character. Granted that it's a fun couple of notes he plays, there isn't much to him besides the funny dumb side and the determined shonen protag side. I don't think his backstory gives him much depth either, beyond describing his circumstances, since his core was already in place and didn't change much through it.
Why would Luffy be a definition of a one-note character? Luffy is a simple character, yes, but that in itself doesn't really change the fact that he is well-written, and fleshed out to the point where you understand his actions, motivation, and behaviors. He may not have tons of thought-bubbles, or spend pages upon pages just narrating his story, or life-philosophy but that in itself doesn't take away from what Oda has done with him. And while yes, he has lots of typical shonen tropes, Oda still shaped him into his own character.
If he was a typical shonen protag then back in Marineford when Ace is killed, Oda could have easily given him magical powers in order for him to beat Akainu on the spot. But what actually happened? Oda kept the character's behavior consistent, and went with that rather than shoehorning some type of cliched "MAIN CHARACTER RAGES, AND BEATS THE VILLAIN" which many shonens, including HXH, end up devolving into.
Also change in character does not really equal to good character. Naruto, and Sasuke are the prime examples of this. It's good when its the purpose of the narrative, and done right, like in Berserk with Guts, or in Breaking Bad with Walter White, or in Vagabond with Musashi. But it really isn't a requirement for a character to be "good". Luffy is not gonna change his base personality. That just isn't going to happen.
I've watched through half of the Nodame anime, and as fun as Nodame is, she mostly acts like a mascot character more than anything (to the point that she basically was when she dressed like a Mongoose). I dunno how much she changes in the latter half, but from what I saw, she's mostly pretty static, except in her performance. I wouldn't call her generic, though, since she's a kind of female character I don't see too often.
She does change, but it's not some significant change.
Nor I think she really has to. The writer was able to flesh her out, and make her stand as an individual character.
Remember our conversation in the Food Wars thread? And how I was bashing Nakiri for being such a nothing of a character? Well Megumi is a complete opposite of that. She has a role, and is given plenty of screen-time to be shaped into her own character with her own individual journey, rather than standing at back, looking pretty, and just existing for the sake of being an romance interest.
Sure we don't have a backstory for him or anything, but the way that he can switch roles from antag to protag without changing his fundamental personality is pretty rare and interesting.
Which is pretty much why I find him to be an immensely boring, and a one-note character.
If his personality changed from his roles, then yes that might actually been interesting. But just as you said; whether he is on villain or hero side means absolutely jack. He is a character that has no real relationships, sides, motivation, reasons, etcc…... Anything to make him a character.
Hell, we had pretty much the exact same character in Tokyo Ghoul that lusted after the main character just because.
Now whether people find him interesting or enjoyable is totally subjective. I, for one might've been ok if I wasn't simply disgusted by his pedo nature.
But as far as his character-work goes, it's basically non-existent, and nothing really worth talking about.
since that isn't the standard for shonen.
Who cares? Whether it's the standard of a shonen, or not doesn't magically make him a good character.
You might've had a point if the character at hand wasn't the pure definition of a psychotic killer-clown, which in fiction isn't original in any way, nor deserves any praise just for being "lolz i can switch to team".
If that's somehow worth praising then you should also praise Sasuke, since having such an inconsistent character isn't exactly a standard for shonen.
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I know that murderclown is def a trope (Joker, Sweet Tooth, Gamzee, etc…), but Hisoka's role is something fundamentally different from the other examples, and pretty rare in general. He isn't a strict antagonist. He's been a scary murderclown, a rival of Gon's, an ally trying to take down a common enemy with Kurapika, a teammate in magical volleyball for fun, and then a scary murderclown again without any of that being inconsistent. He doesn't have a backstory or anything, and he's still a static character, but I don't agree with calling him generic or cliché when, as a character, he's doing different things from the rest.
None of that has anything to do with anything though. Why is he a rival of Gon? Why is he an ally trying to take down a common enemy with Kurapika? Why was he a teammate for volleyball?
You can change any of that scenario, and not notice any real difference in Hisoka's behavior mainly because he is acting as the plot requires him to. His basic role in the story is to be a growth accelerator for Gon, and anything aside from that is just for "lolz". Nothing more. Nothing less.
without any of that being inconsistent.
His character cannot be inconsistent, because there is nothing to really compare the consistency with. It's like trying to minus 0 with 0. The character acts without any rhyme, or reason.
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If he was a typical shonen protag then back in Marineford when Ace is killed, Oda could have easily given him magical powers in order for him to beat Akainu on the spot. But what actually happened? Oda kept the character's behavior consistent, and went with that rather than shoehorning some type of cliched "MAIN CHARACTER RAGES, AND BEATS THE VILLAIN" which many shonens, including HXH, end up devolving into.
Dude, there is always a moment in a lot of shonens in which the character gets trashed and just has a breakdown. Killing Akainu would have meant that Luffy is one of the strongest person in the world–-- to be honest. Luffy is a typical shonen hero, as much as Gon is. (although, I bet Gon will be someone totally different next time we'll see him)
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@Count:
His mental struggle was definitely captivating, but like you said, it got spoiled by the needle instead of being a real traumatic psychological conflict. Not that it completely went to waste, but it's still a big stain. He has the most growth, but only in relation to his bond with Gon and his family. Not his actual individuality as a person, at least past the Hunter Exam arc where we saw him get insecure over Gon's progress and all of that. I don't find him much different as a person besides being bit more… friendly? And I could forgive that if his base individual personality was captivating, but I mentioned his traits and they're not that interesting.
He's a good complement to Gon, but I can't really care for Killua too much as his own character.
You're not wrong about Leorio being the loudmouth comic relief character, but the moments where he stands out from solely being that like when he distracted the Phantom Troupe in the Yorknew City arc, having his dream focused around something as humble as making affordable medicine and being a doctor, the bluff/deception tactics he used during the prison section of the Hunter Exam arc, and his affinity for Gon's safety in the Hunter Chairman Election arc (both when he punched Gin as a meta way for all the fans who thing Ging is a terrible father to get a comeuppance and when he saw that Gon was alright) are absolute standout moments that make him a standout character with very endearing depth. Not unlike that of Kuwabara in Togashi's previous series, Yu Yu Hakusho, who is probably the spiritual predecessor of Leorio (while Kurapika=Kurama, Killua=Hiei, Gon=Yusuke, although the latter two duos have personalities that are pretty different while sharing certain quirks/tropes).
But unfortunately, because he is used SO SPARINGLY, it's very easy to forget that he has those cool moments and only remember that he's the dumb loudmouth archetype that always gets in trouble. Those moments I highlighted assert the potential that he had to become a great character if utilized more often. Togashi really has something against having characters like Leorio and Kuwabara be frequently capable characters in their own right, and I'm completely fine with them not being as strong as their other main character peers.
Now, it makes more sense to focus on a character with as many major connections and capabilities as Killua over Leorio, and I do not ever think it's right for an author to force characters into story arcs if they don't have an organic purpose. But I still find it a shame since Killua's base individual personality is so... generic to me. This would all probably be remedied if Togashi didn't hype up Leorio as one of the main four characters in this deep quartet bond and instead as a more distant recurring supporting character.
In fairness, we haven't ever seen Killua in the story without Gon or his family to play off of, so trying to evaluate him outside of that context seems difficult. For me, the dynamic between him and Gon is a large part of what makes him so compelling, but I can see how that can be viewed as not being his individual personality.
I will admit that I forgot about how clutch he was during the tower section of the hunter arc, and him punching Ging was one of the best moments of the series. But the loud mouth character getting his one chance to shine in an arc is also pretty standard. I guess he's just not a character type I take much interest in, so I didn't mind when he was sidelined after yorknew. I will say that if he is a character that you really liked, it would be frustrating because he clearly isn't held in the same regard as the other three main characters by Togashi. But who knows, we've had an arc for Killua and an arc for Kurapika. That means the dark continent will be the arc of Leorio haha
edit: I forgot Leorio got made into one of zodiac with Kurapika. Wow we might actually be getting an arc based around him.
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Dude, there is always a moment in a lot of shonens in which the character gets trashed and just has a breakdown. Killing Akainu would have meant that Luffy is one of the strongest person in the world–-- to be honest. Luffy is a typical shonen hero, as much as Gon is. (although, I bet Gon will be someone totally different next time we'll see him)
Both have similar character-concepts, and tropes.
Luffy is just superiorly written, and defined.
Gon is a typical shonen hero, who later becomes a sociopathic character with no real reason, or writing behind it which is apparent from the beginning of Hunter exam as he saw people pointlessly get killed without really questioning it, despite him growing up in a normal civilized village, and being exposed to normal people's morality.
Basically one works, and the other one fall apart right when you put more than 2 seconds of thought into it.
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Dude, you really have to attempt to stop being so confrontational. It's fine to not be a fan of Hunter x Hunter but you should expect some annoyed replies in an HxH thread when your argument is that HxH characters don't have any personality.
My way of putting it was douchey, but the point still stands.
I have no problem with discussing the series, and my dislike for it and getting educated if I'm wrong, but those two posts didn't exactly say anything about anything, and just wanted to stop the discussion with "lol ok".
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In fairness, we haven't ever seen Killua in the story without Gon or his family to play off of, so trying to evaluate him outside of that context seems difficult. For me, the dynamic between him and Gon is a large part of what makes him so compelling, but I can see how that can be viewed as not being his individual personality.
And that's the issue right there. What evidence do we have to know that he work on his own without Gon and his family? All we can look towards are the scenes that don't focus on those relationships, and he ends up looking somewhat bland. Which indicates that he can't work too well in a solo solo fashion for an arc unless he gets substantial character development. Killua is fine for the dynamic he plays with Gon, and it's probably why Togashi hasn't given Killua notable standalone relevance. But if a Killua arc miraculously gets announced soon, then I'm not going to exactly be too excited, although I will obviously give it a chance.
I will admit that I forgot about how clutch he was during the tower section of the hunter arc, and him punching Ging was one of the best moments of the series. But the loud mouth character getting his one chance to shine in an arc is also pretty standard. I guess he's just not a character type I take much interest in, so I didn't mind when he was sidelined after yorknew. I will say that if he is a character that you really liked, it would be frustrating because he clearly isn't held in the same regard as the other three main characters by Togashi. But who knows, we've had an arc for Killua and an arc for Kurapika. That means the dark continent will be the arc of Leorio haha
It is standard, but there are series that actually develop these characters beyond those moments and consistently gives them key roles to play as they become charismatically competent characters. Leorio as he is isn't that great of a character, but I'm mainly talking about the potential he has if Togashi utilizes him more.
That's precisely why I wish that he wasn't built up as one of the four main characters because the dissonance in attention from the creator is so jarring, to say the least. But I suppose that can be taken as evidence of Hunter x Hunter's arc premises seeming as though Togashi is focusing on whatever he wants without a whim rather than focusing on some sort of consistent measure of progress aside from the characters getting stronger.
edit: I forgot Leorio got made into one of zodiac with Kurapika. Wow we might actually be getting an arc based around him.
I hope so.
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Simply because the character is whatever Togashi wants him to be at any given time. There is no real ground, writing or understanding that comes with his character. He acts simply because he acts.
If his personality changed from his roles, then yes that might actually been interesting. But just as you said; whether he is on villain or hero side means absolutely jack. He is a character that has no real relationships, sides, motivation, reasons, etcc…... Anything to make him a character.
Hell, we had pretty much the exact same character in Tokyo Ghoul that lusted after the main character just because.
Now whether people find him interesting or enjoyable is totally subjective. I, for one might've been ok if I wasn't simply disgusted by his pedo nature.
But as far as his character-work goes, it's basically non-existent, and nothing really worth talking about.
Who cares? Whether it's the standard of a shonen, or not doesn't magically make him a good character.
You might've had a point if the character at hand wasn't the pure definition of a psychotic killer-clown, which in fiction isn't original in any way, nor deserves any praise just for being "lolz i can switch to team".
If that's somehow worth praising then you should also praise Sasuke, since having such an inconsistent character isn't exactly a standard for shonen.
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None of that has anything to do with anything though. Why is he a rival of Gon? Why is he an ally trying to take down a common enemy with Kurapika? Why was he a teammate for volleyball?
You can change any of that scenario, and not notice any real difference in Hisoka's behavior mainly because he is acting as the plot requires him to. His basic role in the story is to be a growth accelerator for Gon, and anything aside from that is just for "lolz". Nothing more. Nothing less.
His character cannot be inconsistent, because there is nothing to really compare the consistency with. It's like trying to minus 0 with 0. The character acts without any rhyme, or reason.
I think you are pretty off base in your analysis. Hisoka is actually the simplest character in this manga, just like his ability is simple. He wants to fight strong people. That is his core motivation. How he goes about doing this is what people find interesting. It lets him operate in different ways. In the same way Togashi uses his simple ability to make great fights, he uses Hisoka's simple motivation to put him in unique situations.
His desire to fight Chrollo leads him to join the spiders, work against them as a double agent with one of the protagonists, and then work with them in the next arc while also helping our protagonists without revealing that he is helping their former enemies. And all of that is in character. The best Hisoka moment is during the election arc when he is helping Illumi stop Killua. From everything we know thus far in the manga, Hisoka and Illumi have a friend type relationship. Yet when Hisoka catches up to Illumi and Killua at the climax of the arc, we learn that he isn't concerned with helping Illumi, but is contemplating who to kill in order to achieve the best future fight. True to form, he was only allied to himself and trying to fulfill his motivation.
His role in the story is basically to be a wild card, but since his motivation is so simple that means he can effectively fill that role without breaking character. He is definitely not inconsistent and he has a very clear, if simple, character.
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Actually, Kenpachi wants to fight strong opponents too, because he likes that. That's the same thing. And GreedIsland felt like some vacation camp in the plot tbh.
Also, Hisoka has always been a deviant, crazy and eccentric character. And these are the reasons why people like him to be honest, not because "he can turn into an ally and an enemy". He breaks people, but that's just the last step of his "I like fighting and killing strong people" pattern. (btw, Chrollo was his first "serious" fight right?).
And, Hisoka is too much pretentious for me to like him. Tserriednich might be the one who'll kill him, according to his speeches against arrogance and shit. Maybe Togashi introduced Tserriednich to take Hisoka's place after all…..Yeah, the Kenpachi comparison wasn't the best. It was more on the terms that his way of acting is a lot more straightforward than Hisoka´s.
Chrollo might have been his first serious fight, yes.None of that has anything to do with anything though. Why is he a rival of Gon? Why is he an ally trying to take down a common enemy with Kurapika? Why was he a teammate for volleyball?
Gon saw Hisoka as a paragon of strength. Hisoka sees Gon as someone with potential to give him an amazing thrill.
Because he likes fighting strong people.Kurapika wanted to eliminate the spiders. Hisoka joined the spiders to fight Chrollo, but couldn't because the rest of the spiders of always around. They both found common ground and cooperated to reach their goals.
Because he likes fighting strong people.Gon is innocent enough not to realize that Hisoka eventually wants to murder him. Hisoka was on GI to find a nen exorcist. Killua is keen enough to realize that Hisoka was hiding something. Hisoka is sharp enough to realize that if Killua found out, he would tell Kurapika and potentially screw his future fight with Chrollo. Hisoka gave in to Killua's insistence to make himself seem "innocent", as in, not hiding anything. Also, it could make his job in finding Abegane easier.
Because he likes fighting strong people.It all stems from his main purpose. Sure, it's not anything philosophically deep, but his actions never contradicted his objective.
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Both have similar character-concepts, and tropes.
Luffy is just superiorly written, and defined.
Gon is a typical shonen hero, who later becomes a sociopathic character with no real reason, or writing behind it which is apparent from the beginning of Hunter exam as he saw people pointlessly get killed without really questioning it, despite him growing up in a normal civilized village, and being exposed to normal people's morality.
Basically one works, and the other one fall apart right when you put more than 2 seconds of thought into it.
hey, but. Wasn't Gon mad af when he saw Pitou being concerned about Komugi but giving no fuck about Kite? and, same goes for Kurapika being sick that Uvoguin didn't feel a thing after having killed his people.
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I doubt that Oda is some god writer confortable under pressure while Togashi is some human writer afraid of pressure. I think Oda is a perfectionist that cares a lot about his work being approved by his audience and appreciate and that just started having a more relaxed approach to put a little more of what he wants even if not perfect. While Togashi is a writer that fully consider the story his and therefore will do anything in his story and work with little for his audience.
Thankfully I don't care much about either. I tend to try to enjoy the product with zero regard for the one producing it. Wether it is watching a movie without any knowledge on the actor and the behind the scene or a fast food with the commercial and personal life scandal. I'm buying the product and there is no reason for me to pronouce myself on their personal lives and a bad product is a bad even if there's explanation for it.
I think the ending with the bomb and the king dying blind with the girl was nice. It was fairly original and gave the world something to do rather than sit around and let the main character save us. Gon transformation was a little asspullish but worked on his attachment to that hunter that died and the principles of nen.
Gon not paying the price was really the problem, the problem was that the price was paid by no one. It could have been interesting to see what Killua would have to do or even something like Illumi getting controlled of Alluka and killing millions/billions to get Gon back. There were multiple interesting route especially in a manga like HxH but none was chosen.
We don't know how Killua work by himself if by himself mean no other main character and no family. His plot has always been about his family or Gon. His sociopathic way could make him a funny lead due to the contrast between his thinking and others.
I do think Gon is slightly sociopathic but I think all hunters(except Kurapika) are like that. I doubt he is ok with civilians dying but if you are willing to die he won't make a fuse about it. The hunter exam is expected to be deadly therefore he doesn't mind that the exams are deadly.
Hisoka is an easy case of I want to battle strong people and entertain myself. All his decision goes into that and it seems Chrollo was his ultimate prey considering how much energy he put into it. Illumi seems to be his friend although I'm not sure the relation is mutual and I kind of wonder how it came to be. Considering their personality you would expect one to have either crippled or kill the other.
The conclusion to the battle with Chrollo is still one of the most stupid thing to me. Hisoka suddenly get petty/revengeful by deciding to chase the spiders rather than get himself another toy/prey (and warned them for some reason). And his resurrection is incredibly silly considering a dead person has nothing to bargain yet somehow he gets revived and thankfully there's a couple of spiders around with no powers so he can make his cool return.
The dark continent definetely came out of nowhere.
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The conclusion to the battle with Chrollo is still one of the most stupid thing to me. Hisoka suddenly get petty/revengeful by deciding to chase the spiders rather than get himself another toy/prey (and warned them for some reason). And his resurrection is incredibly silly considering a dead person has nothing to bargain yet somehow he gets revived and thankfully there's a couple of spiders around with no powers so he can make his cool return.
The dark continent definetely came out of nowhere.
But above all, since when can anyone talk to his nen? "oh my nen, just revive me after I die, lol, thanks" "oh my nen, just cook me some nuggets, thanks"
And actually, the chimera ants came out of nowhere, so Togashi just jumped on "oy yeah, they're from the dark continent, let's go there""
I bet how the Queen (of the ants) ended up there will never be explained. -
Bakuman possibly? They go into quite a bit of depth there about the royalty system, and about making space for new projects and how long projects have before they get the axe.
Unless its a crazy bad super mega awful failure, they always get at least 20 chapters for 2 volumes. They aren't even ranked until 7 chapters in. But something at the bottom is always leaving, it's a constant cycle. They never just go "well, we have 20 successful things, lets stick with these." There's always competition and lesser series going away… it's why the eventually pulled the trigger on cancelling Bleach after it'd been at the bottom of the rankings for years.
So no, Togashi having a spot in the magazine isn't holding anything back while it's gone or inherantly killing anything when it returns. But it does fill in the space of whatever is leaving when it comes back... and for the 10 or so weeks its around, it pushes other things down a notch and does fill a spot unfairly then.
Ironically, HxH usually has really awful ratings because of its constant breaks, no one really cares in the magazine. It only goes through the motions there to promote the trade.
Also, Kochikame was pretty consistently low ranked, but it didn't matter because it was Kochikame.
Now that I think about it, which series do you guys think will get the axe in the next month? I have no idea how the japanese have been ranking them, but U19, Marie and Poro are awful, in my opinion. I don't know how the older series are in terms of popularity, since I mainly follow Viz's digital Jump and they only have the more popular ones (for the English-speaking audience, at least).
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But above all, since when can anyone talk to his nen? "oh my nen, just revive me after I die, lol, thanks" "oh my nen, just cook me some nuggets, thanks"
As long as his nen didn't respond as if it is sentient I'm fine. I just took it for a visual representation of what happen. Like Gon did to get all his potential at once regardless of the price.
And actually, the chimera ants came out of nowhere, so Togashi just jumped on "oy yeah, they're from the dark continent, let's go there".I bet how the Queen (of the ants) ended up there will never be explained.
I just took it at little snowball exponentially growing into a massive avalanche. A decently strong queen that through a lot of fortunate circumstances gave birth to a dangerous army and king.
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As long as his nen didn't respond as if it is sentient I'm fine. I just took it for a visual representation of what happen. Like Gon did to get all his potential at once regardless of the price.
So, is Hisoka supposed to have restrictions on his nen now?
I just took it at little snowball exponentially growing into a massive avalanche. A decently strong queen that through a lot of fortunate circumstances gave birth to a dangerous army and king.
yeah, I guess we could argue that the NGL is close to the dark continent anyway. (coincidence? or did Togshi really ass-pulled the ants?)
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Now that I think about it, which series do you guys think will get the axe in the next month? I have no idea how the japanese have been ranking them, but U19, Marie and Poro are awful, in my opinion. I don't know how the older series are in terms of popularity, since I mainly follow Viz's digital Jump and they only have the more popular ones (for the English-speaking audience, at least).
We have a thread dedicated to that very topic that covers weekly rankings and speculation on what's coming and going.
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So, is Hisoka supposed to have restrictions on his nen now?
One of the reason Hisoka resurrection is stupid is that there's nothing to sacrifice when you are dead. And how much you sacrifice help your nen gets more perfomant.
Of course it was more of a death makes your nen stronger thing but that's an even more stupid of a reason for his nen to resurrect him(hours after his death even).
yeah, I guess we could argue that the NGL is close to the dark continent anyway. (coincidence? or did Togshi really ass-pulled the ants?)
He probably had a nice concept in his head(the ants eating people and gaining abilities) but no plan on gving them some grand origins. The hunter world is a weird one. Then he retconned their existence to the dark continent once it was a thing in need of being hyped.
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And actually, the chimera ants came out of nowhere, so Togashi just jumped on "oy yeah, they're from the dark continent, let's go there""
I bet how the Queen (of the ants) ended up there will never be explained.No different than the entirety of DBZ's plot progression.
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One of the reason Hisoka resurrection is stupid is that there's nothing to sacrifice when you are dead. And how much you sacrifice help your nen gets more perfomant.
Of course it was more of a death makes your nen stronger thing but that's an even more stupid of a reason for his nen to resurrect him(hours after his death even).
I'm actually kind of okay with the idea that some nen gets stronger upon death… think of it this way: If your nen is an extension of your own will, your own life force, and it naturally gets stronger when you place greater restrictions on it, then the greatest restriction is to force yourself to remain true to your ideals even at the cost of your very life.
I like to think of this property of nen (more restrictions resulting in greater power) as a parallel to how fluids behave under greater pressure or when forced through tighter channels. If your nen is like a fluid continuously flowing out in all directions, then putting greater restrictions on how it can flow forces more of that flow out in the directions where there is no resistance, and clearly results in a greater pressure and flow rate through those remaining channels. It sort of makes sense that nen given a purpose that can only be achieved in the event of your own death would perhaps be able to do more than nen which must follow your will at all times while you are living.
Maybe in Hisoka's case, his resolve to continue the chase against Chrollo, even if it resulted in his death, is what gave his nen the proper restriction in order to enhance its power to the point of being able to spring into action without direct control. Maybe?
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I'm actually kind of okay with the idea that some nen gets stronger upon death… think of it this way: If your nen is an extension of your own will, your own life force, and it naturally gets stronger when you place greater restrictions on it, then the greatest restriction is to force yourself to remain true to your ideals even at the cost of your very life.
I like to think of this property of nen (more restrictions resulting in greater power) as a parallel to how fluids behave under greater pressure or through tighter channels. If your nen is like a fluid continuously flowing out in all directions, then putting greater restrictions on how it can flow forces more of that flow out in the directions where there is no resistance, and clearly results in a greater pressure and flow rate through those remaining channels.
I am fine with Nen becoming stronger with death. I kinda imagine nen as related to your resolve and determination maybe death makes it grow stronger when you die with great determination.
I sure as all consider it asspullish that the gum nen goes dormant for a couple of hours(when it should either grow stronger or disappear. and do something as incredibly specific as restarting your lungs and heart. This has nothing to do with Nen growing stronger and everthing to do with manipulating your nen which something you do alive.
The only reason the spiders aren't around to just kill him as soon as he pops up is due to how bs his survival is.
Maybe in Hisoka's case, his resolve to continue the chase against Chrollo, even at the cost of his own death, is what gave his nen the proper restriction in order to enhance its power to the point of being able to spring into action without direct control. Maybe?
The guy was certain he could win and made his deal at the last when he knew he was going to die. His deal is literally I know I am going to die but how about you give me a free pass on that.
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and the manga will go back to hiatus on july 29
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The guy was certain he could win and made his deal at the last when he knew he was going to die. His deal is literally I know I am going to die but how about you give me a free pass on that.
We don't necessarily know that, do we? I could be mistaken or remembering the previous chapters completely wrong here, so please let me know if I'm missing something. But, here's how I see it:
Yes, we saw him give his nen a command immediately before his death. But we don't know that he was certain of his victory at the start of the fight, right? If anything, he must have been sure that there was a pretty good chance that he would lose!
The fact that the fight happens in an arena, that bets were being placed, places specific emphasis on this concept - Hisoka MUST have known that he could lose this fight. After all, he followed Chrollo at a distance and even admits that he let Chrollo choose the venue and means of their confrontation.
For all we know, perhaps Hisoka was using all of this setup as part of the restriction for his nen. Anyway, as long as I'm not missing something huge here, I really do think that it's debatable whether his death nen would have the capacity to act on its own, even after a (somewhat) long time delay.
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More BS is that he bet his body wasn't going to blow up into pieces because of the explosion, and then just asked his nen to revive his heart and lungs.
edit: well, actually he knew the other girl was payed to stitch his body so I guess it's not that bad.
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More BS is that he bet his body wasn't going to blow up into pieces because of the explosion, and then just asked his nen to revive his heart and lungs.
Is that really bullshit? It was a risky bet to make, and the fact that his command was so limited in extent and closely related to abilities he already gave his nen in life makes the power jump of his death nen even more believable, in my eyes.
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I'm actually kind of okay with the idea that some nen gets stronger upon death… think of it this way: If your nen is an extension of your own will, your own life force, and it naturally gets stronger when you place greater restrictions on it, then the greatest restriction is to force yourself to remain true to your ideals even at the cost of your very life.
I like to think of this property of nen (more restrictions resulting in greater power) as a parallel to how fluids behave under greater pressure or when forced through tighter channels. If your nen is like a fluid continuously flowing out in all directions, then putting greater restrictions on how it can flow forces more of that flow out in the directions where there is no resistance, and clearly results in a greater pressure and flow rate through those remaining channels. It sort of makes sense that nen given a purpose that can only be achieved in the event of your own death would perhaps be able to do more than nen which must follow your will at all times while you are living.
Maybe in Hisoka's case, his resolve to continue the chase against Chrollo, even if it resulted in his death, is what gave his nen the proper restriction in order to enhance its power to the point of being able to spring into action without direct control. Maybe?
The concept is fine, but the execution in this particular case wasn't.
The post dead thing was always assciated with strong feelings or grudges. Kurapika's was a good example because his entire tribe was massacred, so him dying by the hands of the spiders would only reinforce the chain in Chrollos heart. That one made total sense.
I don't 100% mind the Hisoka case beause it was only possible due to the nature of his nen. Any other user couldn't possibly do something similar. But his strong feelings ressonated on me like he was on a beach drinking a mojito.
"Oh yeah, pick up my laundry and then revive me pls, xoxo""Maybe in Hisoka's case, his resolve to continue the chase against Chrollo, even if it resulted in his death"
My biggest gripe with this is that it's way too much whataboutism. If it was this easy, pretty much every nen user would have some post death impact.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Forgot something: The fact that in the end, it was a free pass for Togashi to avoid doing an impactful decision that could affect some popular character.
It would be fine if it was the first time, but recently Gon got a free pass and Killua manages to use Nanika without danger, another free pass.
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Yes, we saw him give his nen a command immediately before his death. But we don't know that he was certain of his victory at the start of the fight, right? If anything, he must have been sure that there was a pretty good chance that he would lose!
He could lose but he sure as hell was confident. That's his way of taking any fight. As he said he likes those cocky bastards that think they have everything in their control and suddenly flip the script on them. Only when he started to not be able to lend anything meaningful did he seriously consider his loss. He even said that was a long shot that he was about to try.
The fact that the fight happens in an arena, that bets were being placed, places specific emphasis on this concept - Hisoka MUST have known that he could lose this fight. After all, he followed Chrollo at a distance and even admits that he let Chrollo choose the venue and means of their confrontation.
Of course he could lose. But he also considered he had decent chance. He din't think he could take all the spiders but Chrollo he thought he could.
For all we know, perhaps Hisoka was using all of this setup as part of the restriction for his nen.
His nen would have became stronger during his fight if it's that.
Anyway, as long as I'm not missing something huge here, I really do think that it's debatable whether his death nen would have the capacity to act on its own, even after a (somewhat) long time delay.
The fairly knowledgable spiders considered he was dead for good. There's nothing to indicate someone can control their nen after death just become stronger. Death makes the nen grow stronger not make it diseapear and reapear later. There is nothing to indicate so. Chrollo bombs didn't disappear from the book and reappear later. And the dead ant rose from the dead as soon he was killed.
It is only debatable to the extent that new rule can be made on the fly. Any information prior to that points to the unlikeliness of that super convenient usage of nen.
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"Oh yeah, pick up my laundry and then revive me pls, xoxo"
Hahaha! Yeah, it's pretty funny when you put it that way, but I still don't necessarily think it's all crap. Yes, the death nen from other characters so far has been quite grudgey. But, for pretty much all of these characters, that sort of emotion seemed very natural for them… almost like an extension of their will to the next level.
But Hisoka has never shown any sort of vengeful emotion like that. It would make some sense that his death nen would follow a will or emotion that was a little more lighthearted, right?
Heh. I don't know, it's just a feeling I get. It's cool if you all still think that it was bad writing. Certainly, if my perspective is right about this, it could easily have been explained in greater detail by the author himself, so I'll give you that.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
He could lose but he sure as hell was confident. That's his way of taking any fight. As he said he likes those cocky bastards that think they have everything in their control and suddenly flip the script on them. Only when he started to not be able to lend anything meaningful did he seriously consider his loss. He even said that was a long shot that he was about to try.
It being a long shot is exactly why it makes so much sense to me that the abilities of the nen would be enhanced upon his death. I don't expect his nen to be able to do anything like this again unless he is, again, dead.
Anyway, he sure flipped the script, didn't he? That's the kind of satisfaction and lust for challenging battle that I think could have fueled his nen to continue after death. It makes sense for Hisoka, much more than any grudge-based feeling would.
His nen would have became stronger during his fight if it's that.
It seemed pretty strong to me… he could have even wrapped himself in his gum before the final explosion to absorb some of the impact. That'd be some pretty strong gum if it protected his body from an explosion centered around him that was powerful enough to destroy one whole floor of a huge building.
The fairly knowledgable spiders considered he was dead for good. There's nothing to indicate someone can control their nen after death just become stronger. Death makes the nen grow stronger not make it diseapear and reapear later. There is nothing to indicate so. Chrollo bombs didn't disappear from the book and reappear later. And the dead ant rose from the dead as soon he was killed.
It is only debatable to the extent that new rule can be made on the fly. Any information prior to that points to the unlikeliness of that super convenient usage of nen.
Ging seems to be pretty good at giving his nen new rules on the fly. Why not Hisoka?