That means she got killed by someone who… didn't get the picture.
.
her soul got released by… the soul king, so now she can be free to move on. Kinda fits.
That means she got killed by someone who… didn't get the picture.
.
her soul got released by… the soul king, so now she can be free to move on. Kinda fits.
@Daz:
While I find it greatly amusing, the trouble with the cliffhanger vis-a-vis storytelling is the reader has to adjust to two surprises at once: The surprise of the picture getting smashed s suddenly and easily, and the surprise of Brook being a Luffy decoy, and thus in a position to even do that. Learning both things at the same time makes it feel a bit more jarring and convenient. But it may just be that a moment like that sticks out, since this is the most convenience-reliant arc in the series. Much like Law in Punk Hazard, I keep wondering what Bege would've done if the Straw Hats hadn't come along (with Caesar and Brülee).
*Note: Not all of the answer is towards you, but my overall thoughts on these connected events.
If you you notice that Brook came out of the wedding cake with the other Luffys, then would that not establish that Brook is also acting as part of the decoys? The fact that you can notice Brook's form among all the Luffy should have been a trigger as to: why is he there? The fact that Smoothie didn't recognize him neither or Mont D'Or, should have been a: why is no one recognizing Brook even though the readers can. The next time we see him it shows that he was using a mask. Which considering that he could have just used Brulee's power to hide himself and he decided to opt for a mask is the type of ridiculous behavior I expect of the Strawhats.
Personally, I like these unspoken hints, but I also understand the point of view of building up so these surprising events.
For example, maybe I am wrong:
[hide][/hide]
In the fourth panel "Uwa, he is covered in cake", we see Brook already wearing the mask. You can recognize him because of his suit. I couldn't find him anywhere else after. I get it though, it would have been nice to see to see him with the mask in his hand when they were almost late to the wedding. Or when they are about to jump. Oda decided to, show us that Brook came out of the cake with Luffy, and then sightly hinted that he had something on his face, because we cannot see that scar, and we see round eyes not sockets.
I agree on the convenience of having both Brulee and Ceasar. It sparks my curiosity to see what were Capone's options before Ceasar came into the picture. Brulee was a double edge sword the minute she appeared. If she had been as strong as one of the commanders then a real miracle would have been needed to defeat her.
–--
It is a complex situation to analyze because of Katakuri being in the picture. But if we consider that for him to see the future, he has to focus on his target. Then it is much easier to bypass him as a threat. The real Luffy declared himself and his intention, and then Jimbe used the opportunity to quit the crew. The next backup they have is Pedro, someone that we have seen able to bypass Observation haki. While some of the non-combatant guest are preoccupied with the wild animals, the others are shocked at seeing Jimbe being immune to their mother's power. I think this is much bigger even than we realize. If we see Big Mom's abilities: Devil Fruit power, haki, invulnerability, Zeus, Prometheus, Napoleon, and the fact that she could start animating any object as a soldier. I would find it hard to believe that anyone but the other emperors and some top brass in the marines would not be scared of her.
For Jimbe's advantage, he is willing to put down his life down for his principles. And considering he has witnessed first hand the type of man his true captain is and aspires to be. He is ready to commit his entire being. There is nothing to fear, like Brook once said in Fishman Island. Now the question would be, why wouldn't other crews be as committed? Well, most of the antagonists are, but always to further their own goal and tied to more selfish goals. With Big Mom, Kaido and Blackbeard I find that the minute you are not useful you get iced. That's why they rule with power, and the crewmates are fearful. Something that has displayed a lot for both Big Mom and Kaido. Their crews are strong and big enough to stand on their own. But the cohesiveness that you could expect from the Strawhats or Shanks ship is not there. That is why it is not surprising that everyone wants to handle it on their own.
@Count:
Good point about there technically being two surprises. But I think you should rephrase that question to what would the Straw hats do if Bege wasn't conveniently planning his own coup for two years against the same antagonist. This is much more coincidentally convenient for the Straw Hats than the Firetank Pirates.
You skipped the oarts about how after learning that Luffy wants to be the bait and make a quirky entrance, we see his entrance a few chapters later, then we see the flashback of Luffy explainibg what his entrance will be, and then we get Fake Brook being backup out of nowhere.
We started out not knowing the plan for Luffy's entrance. But we knew something unorthodox would happen. Brulee herself did not have specific build-up, but her role in the plan of Luffy's entrance was because we were left in the dark about what Luffy's entrance was. If we actually heard some of what he said, but Oda conveniently left out Brulee's role, and then we find out that she made some mirror clones anyways, I would also find that to be a cheap twist that adds new factors to what was already built-up. When you have a premise for something as generic as "I want to make a funny entrance", that opens the board for all sorts of combinations of whatever characters and nearby factors we know are present. But when you show that premise's details, show it in action, and then add another element on top of that which was not hinted, it can reasonably harm suspension of disbelief.
The thing about Luffy's announcement of his entrance plan is that NOTHING SPECIFIC had build-up. So anything was up for grabs, be it Brulee, Brook, or both of them before we see the entrance. Then we see the entrance and clearly see that Brulee was chosen. Then we see the flashback and know that Luffy's plan revolved around Brulee and nothing else in the context of the flashback. That laid groundwork that effectively erased the question of "What is Luffy's big entrance". Add on how we know that Luffy's role was to be the bait to break the mirror, and there are no open-ended loose ends to use for adding another twist that can effectively subvert expectations of what has been set. There were no hints of anything else being planned. But then comes Brook as a surprise. Actually, two surprises like Daz said since Brook was both a fake Luffy AND broke the mirror. These surprises were not built-up to be feasible at all and after we saw the flashback of what Luffy's idea was. Sure, theoretically, new stuff could have happened afterwards. But that is only theoretical. Only assumptive. A visual medium should not need to leave key plot points up for pure assumptions, even if reasons are given later. There should always be build up.
Green Bull's Devil Fruit power is not a key plot point that is meant to work as a twist. At least not yet. We already know that lots of people in this series, especially powerful ones, use Devil Fruits. If we never saw any Devil Fruits in this series and Green Bull was the first to use one out of nowhere, yeah, that would be a bad twist due to lacking any build-up to sustain disbelief and maintain plot consistency. A better example you could have used would be Blackbeard revealing that he can harness two Devil Fruits simultaneously against all known facts about Devil Fruits for most of the world.
The thing is that even if the end result is shown first, it usually has build-up because the character using it or someone else knows that a new technique exists and will be used soon. We'll get something like training being mentioned happening off-panel. That "something" is what makes this formula of revelations work and not turn off fans. But Brook breaks this formula because he doesn't have that build-up. As flimsy as a one sentence statement about learning a new technique off-panel is, and trust me I would definitely prefer having more plausible reasons shown to support Luffy having the time and inspiration to create the Gears on the way to Enies Lobby, it's still build-up that makes Luffy's Gears plausible. You can definitely argue that it's not enough build-up, but it's still build-up. And ever good twist needs build-up.
But HOW we get the complete picture matters though in a narrative. You can't just do whatever style you want as long as you tell the whole truth. There's a reason why bad plot-twists exist. Most likely nothing will change my thoughts on this because I don't care for how it was revealed. Not what the reveal was. I'm not critiquing a piece or the whole picture, I'm critiquing how the pieces were shown to fit into the big picture. We're either getting an explanation for why Brook put on a mask or not next chapter, but that does not change how it got revealed. This is not about the complete picture. This is about how it was formed. The complete picture later on isn't going to change anything about the quality of previously published chapters.
OK, so here's the thing.
I did totally forgot about that scene. And that scene does change my opinion. I hope you understand why I kept hitting that key, which I now saw is broken.
I'm more to your side now, a small background gag there could've worked wonders. I say background gag because something including actual text/dialogue would probably be too obvious and go against the intended absolute surprise efect.
Still, despite understanding your point of view much better and siding more with you, I'm still not fully on your camp because of what Tamiel pointed out.
In that same chapter we get a couple of hidden Brooks, and that still counts as something for the reader to pay attention.
It was already there we just didn't see it, kinda like the BM pirates.
So now for the fun game I just discovered, Can you find the hidden Brook? Yohohohoh!
!
Btw, has anyone here read Shaman King?
This reminds me of the shaman tournament qualifiers, where Ryu is cleverly hidden in many panels since we didn't knew at the time that he had developed shaman abilities.
OK, so here's the thing.
I did totally forgot about that scene. And that scene does change my opinion. I hope you understand why I kept hitting that key, which I now saw is broken.
I'm more to your side now, a small background gag there could've worked wonders. I say background gag because something including actual text/dialogue would probably be too obvious and go against the intended absolute surprise efect.Still, despite understanding your point of view much better and siding more with you, I'm still not fully on your camp because of what Tamiel pointed out.
In that same chapter we get a couple of hidden Brooks, and that still counts as something for the reader to pay attention.
It was already there we just didn't see it, kinda like the BM pirates.So now for the fun game I just discovered, Can you find the hidden Brook? Yohohohoh!
I know about Brook being in that page lol. But the thing is… That doesn't really change anything about my complaint. My issue is with the build-up not being in the planning scenes/flashback. And the reason why that's an issue for me is because that is the only possible time where you can build-up motivation for why and how Brook would do this. That scene you posted only shows that Brook came out with the mirror clone Luffy's at the same time. It builds up the twist at the end, but only after the plan already started. It doesn't build up why his role in the plan by acting as backup for Luffy with a disguise happened. It only builds up that he's a fake Luffy and may break the picture if Luffy can't. But it does not build-up how Brook got this idea/role in the first place. And I need some indication for the why since this is a weird role not indicated to be desired in the planning we saw.
I hope you understand me now. I want build-up in planning scenes so that Brook's decision makes sense. You could argue that Brook decided to act on his own without anybody's approval, but that's even more weird because haven't really seen why he would think that he needs to act on his own if the plan already sounds good. And it's weird for everybody to just let Brook wander off and not notice he's gone when everybody is expected to act according to the plan in some way, unless Oda wants to go for a cheap gag where they conveniently forgot about him just because.
Let's pretend that that the planning session (including the Luffy entrance flashback) is Point A. Brook coming out of that cake with the other fake Luffy's is Point B. And Brook breaking the picture at the end of the chapter is Point C.
We can see how Point B connects with Point C because we can tell (at least in hindsight if you didn't notice Brook on that page at first) that Brook is a fake Luffy, and will thus act as backup. But we do not see how Point A connects with Point B, because a special role for Brook or Brook having some sort hinted agendas/feelings that may prompt him to act this way is not present. There needs to be build-up between Point A and Point B so that Point B even happening makes sense. That page of Brook jumping out of the cake as Point B only explains how Point C happened, but it does not explain Point A due to only being shown after Point A.
Now that you point it… i must say that the thing with Brook was nice but not great. He might be the surprise factor of the arc like Sanji did before at Arabasta and Ennies Lobby but still felt like forced... you can see him aiming at the top Poneglyph first to after be found in the same one... and here disguised with other weapon that should cut instead of break... only nice and i'm not hyped at all about it.
Isn't showing the plan before being executed generally results to fail?
Isn't showing the plan before being executed generally results to fail?
Yeah. Very much so. That does not mean you still can't lay out hints for that the plan will be about though. It just means you don't have the characters talk about what the plan is. The reason why plans told on-screen always fail is because if they work out, then the plot becomes too predictable. If the plans are not told, then suspense is kept up and it's a good way of making the readers be in awe at the capabilities of the characters when they see how all of the hidden strands are able to connect to subvert expectations.
So, is that extra panel enough?
Already saturday we can expect early spoilers right?? I feel like whatever happens from now on, 1-will be awesome and 2- will more or less tell us which path this arc will be taking and what we can expect from the conclusion of it.
@Tamiel:
*Note: Not all of the answer is towards you, but my overall thoughts on these connected events.
If you you notice that Brook came out of the wedding cake with the other Luffys, then would that not establish that Brook is also acting as part of the decoys? The fact that you can notice Brook's form among all the Luffy should have been a trigger as to: why is he there? The fact that Smoothie didn't recognize him neither or Mont D'Or, should have been a: why is no one recognizing Brook even though the readers can. The next time we see him it shows that he was using a mask. Which considering that he could have just used Brulee's power to hide himself and he decided to opt for a mask is the type of ridiculous behavior I expect of the Strawhats.
Personally, I like these unspoken hints, but I also understand the point of view of building up so these surprising events.
For example, maybe I am wrong:
[hide]http://i996.mangareader.net/one-piece/863/one-piece-9226903.jpg[/hide]
In the fourth panel "Uwa, he is covered in cake", we see Brook already wearing the mask. You can recognize him because of his suit. I couldn't find him anywhere else after. I get it though, it would have been nice to see to see him with the mask in his hand when they were almost late to the wedding. Or when they are about to jump. Oda decided to, show us that Brook came out of the cake with Luffy, and then sightly hinted that he had something on his face, because we cannot see that scar, and we see round eyes not sockets.
I agree on the convenience of having both Brulee and Ceasar. It sparks my curiosity to see what were Capone's options before Ceasar came into the picture. Brulee was a double edge sword the minute she appeared. If she had been as strong as one of the commanders then a real miracle would have been needed to defeat her.
It does not establish WHY Brook decided to make himself a part of the decoys in an act/role that has not been stated in the plan. It only establishes that he just is one for whatever off-panel reason. It's surprising and prompts you to ask why if you notice, but I don't think it's asking you why in a good way as there is nothing specific to connect it to in Brook's behavior previous chapters, where he has done pretty much nothing notable. I can definitely see the Straw Hats having the smarts and kookiness to come up with a plan like this, but you need to show a bit of a method to the madness so that we can follow their logic rather than make it an afterthought. Good twists rely on how you juggle what's already known than adding more new stuff for a cheap surprise.
Good eye for noticing that panel though! It doesn't erase my complaints, but it does help what Daz stated earlier about how it might be a bit too much to swallow the Brook reveal at the end being two twists at one (that Brook is a fake Luffy and that Brook managed to sneak past everyone to destroy the portrait).
How long is Goldenweek again?
Maybe Brook disguised because unfortunately for him, he has a very recognizble face which Big Mum took a liking into and he doesn’t want to spend a second night with her
@Count:
It does not establish WHY Brook decided to make himself a part of the decoys in an act/role that has not been stated in the plan. It only establishes that he just is one for whatever off-panel reason. It's surprising and prompts you to ask why if you notice, but I don't think it's asking you why in a good way as there is nothing specific to connect it to in Brook's behavior previous chapters, where he has done pretty much nothing notable. I can definitely see the Straw Hats having the smarts and kookiness to come up with a plan like this, but you need to show a bit of a method to the madness so that we can follow their logic rather than make it an afterthought. Good twists rely on how you juggle what's already known than adding more new stuff for a cheap surprise.
Good eye for noticing that panel though! It doesn't erase my complaints, but it does help what Daz stated earlier about how it might be a bit too much to swallow the Brook reveal at the end being two twists at one (that Brook is a fake Luffy and that Brook managed to sneak past everyone to destroy the portrait).
I figured it would not be enough that's why I preemptively added the suggestion on where it could have been hinted further, my intention was to try and find a scene where he had a mask with him, but couldn't. I find easier to swallow because Luffy's AND his group were in charge of the destroying the picture, Luffy being the bait/decoy because he would be the most wanted among the group. If anything, the fact that Luffy said It is a secret to then reveal it a couple of minutes later was unnecessary and could have been used to insert reader's preference here. Anyways I think it is enough about this topic.
@Count:
I know about Brook being in that page lol. But the thing is… That doesn't really change anything about my complaint. My issue is with the build-up not being in the planning scenes/flashback. And the reason why that's an issue for me is because that is the only possible time where you can build-up motivation for why and how Brook would do this. That scene you posted only shows that Brook came out with the mirror clone Luffy's at the same time. It builds up the twist at the end, but only after the plan already started. It doesn't build up why his role in the plan by acting as backup for Luffy with a disguise happened. It only builds up that he's a fake Luffy and may break the picture if Luffy can't. But it does not build-up how Brook got this idea/role in the first place. And I need some indication for the why since this is a weird role not indicated to be desired in the planning we saw.
I hope you understand me now. I want build-up in planning scenes so that Brook's decision makes sense. You could argue that Brook decided to act on his own without anybody's approval, but that's even more weird because haven't really seen why he would think that he needs to act on his own if the plan already sounds good. And it's weird for everybody to just let Brook wander off and not notice he's gone when everybody is expected to act according to the plan in some way, unless Oda wants to go for a cheap gag where they conveniently forgot about him just because.
Let's pretend that that the planning session (including the Luffy entrance flashback) is Point A. Brook coming out of that cake with the other fake Luffy's is Point B. And Brook breaking the picture at the end of the chapter is Point C.
We can see how Point B connects with Point C because we can tell (at least in hindsight if you didn't notice Brook on that page at first) that Brook is a fake Luffy, and will thus act as backup. But we do not see how Point A connects with Point B, because a special role for Brook or Brook having some sort hinted agendas/feelings that may prompt him to act this way is not present. There needs to be build-up between Point A and Point B so that Point B even happening makes sense. That page of Brook jumping out of the cake as Point B only explains how Point C happened, but it does not explain Point A due to only being shown after Point A.
Yeah, I get what you mean.
And like I said in the previous post, I agree that a background gag during the flashback would've worked wonders here.
But I guess it bothers you more than me.
Now that we've been over this scene for a few days and I can see all the "cracks" I still find it more than acceptable. And when I first read it, it got me in stiches so I'm always going to think that it worked well.
But this was a good discussion to me.
I like talking about how the pieces of the story work among themselves.
I dunno guys. If we had seen some sort of planning last panel wouldn't be as funny as it was.
I dunno guys. If we had seen some sort of planning last panel wouldn't be as funny as it was.
It wouldn’t be funny at all because the main interest of this twist is that we couldn’t foresee it and that it has much more impact on the reader this way
@Shobu:
Now that you point it… i must say that the thing with Brook was nice but not great. He might be the surprise factor of the arc like Sanji did before at Arabasta and Ennies Lobby but still felt like forced... you can see him aiming at the top Poneglyph first to after be found in the same one... and here disguised with other weapon that should cut instead of break... only nice and i'm not hyped at all about it.
I assume he uses the hammer because his sword was taken whe he was capture.
I assume he uses the hammer because his sword was taken whe he was capture.
Now that you quote me, which to answer you i say that Bege stole their stuff to pass them again, i wonder about Lola's Vivre card: Where could it be? D:
I don't really have a problem with this since it happened in 1 page and was clearly meant for shock/comedy value. Not sure if it warranted a discussion. Next chapter is hopefully when we'll deal with the before and after of it all, and determine whether or not it was good plot progression.
@Shobu:
Now that you quote me, which to answer you i say that Bege stole their stuff to pass them again, i wonder about Lola's Vivre card: Where could it be? D:
Doubt there was time for bege to do that they safe brook and went to bege, and the vivre card was taken when luffy and nami got capture.
I decided to procrastinate reading last week's chapter since there was a break this past week. Didn't read any thoughts about the chapter prior to reading it today either. Took a chance, went in blind. There was quite abit to like here.
I was surprised to see Luffy actually came up with a pretty cunning plan to gain the element of surprise. Must be the new clothes, they certainly make him look smarter.
Poor Brûlée, all she wanted was to capture the protagonists while mercilessly disparaging them and eat two of them. What did she do to deserve being treated the way she is now?
Linlin's ability to turn fear itself into a weapon is pretty neat. I can understand her anger too, that cake was a work of art. Luffy has no appreciation for the finer things. The sinister expressions on the faces of Zeus and Prometheus when Linlin summons them to do battle were cool too. I like how casually Linlin mentions eating people's souls, she's so delightfully creepy. And that expression she has before attempting to take Jinbe's soul… Never change Linlin.
I love how Capone smugly assumes Luffy is clever, only to be proven dead wrong. That was fabulous.
Boss Jinbe demonstrates why he's boss yet again, I look forward to further demonstrations in the future.
Brook, master of disguise!
Damn enjoyable chapter, had a blast.
next chapter will probably deal with the others straw hats and rest of the zou crew in my opinion. Plus some other reverie stuff
next chapter will probably deal with the others straw hats and rest of the zou crew in my opinion. Plus some other reverie stuff
I don't know about that to be honest. We're still in the middle of the climax. Big Mom is probably going to unleash her Haki and scream next chapter and the plan to poison her will probably go wrong at this point.
I think once the fleeing commences and they get back to the Sunny safely is when we will check in with the others.
I'm sure other people have already said this but add me to the list of people who think Jinbe and Brooke are stealing the show this arc.
Also I'm not thrilled about the fact that Pudding's motivation for wanting to murder everyone is because she was bullied about her eye… I hope there is more too the "twist" of Sanji being the first person to compliment her.
I dunno guys. If we had seen some sort of planning last panel wouldn't be as funny as it was.
It wouldn’t be funny at all because the main interest of this twist is that we couldn’t foresee it and that it has much more impact on the reader this way
It's not like I'm saying we need to learn exactly what Brook will do before he does it. Just a small hint or two before the plan starts so that we can look back and understand why Brook undertook this unorthodox role that we not mentioned in the plan. Like Brook having a small objection or feeling nervous on-panel or something. We knew that Luffy would have some sort of atypical entrance without knowing the details, and that knowledge didn't stop Luffy's entrance from being humorous and impressively clever.
Yeah, I get what you mean.
And like I said in the previous post, I agree that a background gag during the flashback would've worked wonders here.But I guess it bothers you more than me.
Now that we've been over this scene for a few days and I can see all the "cracks" I still find it more than acceptable. And when I first read it, it got me in stiches so I'm always going to think that it worked well.But this was a good discussion to me.
I like talking about how the pieces of the story work among themselves.
It was a good discussion to me too. And to be fair, it's not like this actually bothers me THAT much lol. I still like the ending and love Brook finally being majorly relevant in an arc, especially in such funny ways. I only meant to point out how I feel it could be improved, not seem as if I actually think it's completely bad writing.
@Tamiel:
I figured it would not be enough that's why I preemptively added the suggestion on where it could have been hinted further, my intention was to try and find a scene where he had a mask with him, but couldn't. I find easier to swallow because Luffy's AND his group were in charge of the destroying the picture, Luffy being the bait/decoy because he would be the most wanted among the group. If anything, the fact that Luffy said It is a secret to then reveal it a couple of minutes later was unnecessary and could have been used to insert reader's preference here. Anyways I think it is enough about this topic.
Then the topic shall end. I'm glad that it managed to carry past the break though. To be honest, I wanted to stir up the thread with some intellectual discussion that boiled down to more than just praising the chapter. Especially with how long and boring a break can typically be.
next chapter will probably deal with the others straw hats and rest of the zou crew in my opinion. Plus some other reverie stuff
That's not going to happen until this arc's conflict is settled. Oda's style of plot progression never does that. His scene changes always require some sort of segue. Like everybody reacting to new Straw Hat bounty posters or building up excitement during the calm before the storm we see in-between arcs when the tension has died down. Showing events in Wano Country would be too disjointed and awkward in the middle of the wedding, and wouldn't really have a point in being shown right now instead of at the end of the arc. We are right in the middle of this arc's climax, and it would not be beneficial to take a momentary detour while we are captivated in the suspense of such a major junction of the story. Similar to how we finally caught a glimpse of what the Swirly Hats were doing in-between Doflamingo's defeat and Kaido's intro when the heroes were celebrating and recovering, we may likely see what the Wano Team is doing after the wedding chaos is solved, along with more Reverie stuff.
To me all this looks like improvisation and adaptation to the events. There is a team that backup Luffy and a team that backup Sanji. Brook is in the first one
To me all this looks like improvisation and adaptation to the events. There is a team that backup Luffy and a team that backup Sanji. Brook is in the first one
But nothing that anyone has done so far is improvisation besides Sanji complimenting Pudding. You don't improvise to disguise yourself as someone with a mask on hand unless you're Mr. 2 or Brulee. The team backing up Luffy, Jimbei and Pedro, is just backing him up. Not having the foresight to wear disguises and what not.
The disguise is not but Jimbequiting big mum crew certainly and brook breaking the picture probably
@Tamiel:
Jajaja, but I did give you the benefit. I am just weird on my delivery. Because I respect you, I inquired about what was your ~problem/intrigue~ about the subject. It was just a bad approach on my part.
No sweat, the respect is mutual. ^^
(Talk about replying randomly to something from last week. I've been too busy to even visit the forums.)
The disguise is not but Jimbequiting big mum crew certainly and brook breaking the picture probably
We at least knew Jimbei has been trying to quit Big Mom's crew. And only Luffy was selected to be the bait for breaking the picture.
@Count:
But nothing that anyone has done so far is improvisation besides Sanji complimenting Pudding. You don't improvise to disguise yourself as someone with a mask on hand unless you're Mr. 2 or Brulee. The team backing up Luffy, Jimbei and Pedro, is just backing him up. Not having the foresight to wear disguises and what not.
Count. I believe the element of surprise has taken a toll on some readers and maybe you are riding such wagon. Looking in hindsight, many OP followers have continually stated the pivotal reasons as to why the MBMP (Murder Big Mom Plan) ''might '' fail. Sadly it was summarize as '' the plan has been somewhat explained to us, ergo it won't succeed''.
Frankly, when I reread the plan's exposition I found myself at a loss as to why readers where so adamant in proclaiming the outcome or why would they assume knowledge of the plan when all we got during it's set-up stage were the following 4 main points.
If you notice the 4 points answer the questions 1. What?- 2. What? - 3.With what?- 4 How? The only snippet that have been expanded about regarding the How is planned out are the escape route and I somehow feel there are a couple of things that can happen on that line. However the procedures weren't discussed in the slightest. If you ask me it lloked more like a work meeting in the sense of task distribution and target focus. The path and ways on how it should be reached where not there and I actually find it cunning of ODA to give us partial information on the events without giving us the full strategic procedure of the operation.
Count. I believe the element of surprise has taken a toll on some readers and maybe you are riding such wagon. Looking in hindsight, many OP followers have continually stated the pivotal reasons as to why the MBMP (Murder Big Mom Plan) ''might '' fail. Sadly it was summarize as '' the plan has been somewhat explained to us, ergo it won't succeed''.
Frankly, when I reread the plan's exposition I found myself at a loss as to why readers where so adamant in proclaiming the outcome or why would they assume knowledge of the plan when all we got during it's set-up stage were the following 4 main points.
- The main goal was stated (kill Big Mom) even if we know that's not the SH's purpose the coup d'etat has certainly that aspiration by one of his leaders (Capone)
- Before attempting to kill BM Mother Carmel's portrait must be destroyed
- After destroying the portrait Bigmom must be hit by one of the deadliest poisonous spears in the world ( the Alliance has 3 of those)
- The exit route depends greatly on CC.
If you notice the 4 points answer the questions 1. What?- 2. What? - 3.With what?- 4 How? The only snippet that have been expanded about regarding the How is planned out are the escape route and I somehow feel there are a couple of things that can happen on that line. However the procedures weren't discussed in the slightest. If you ask me it lloked more like a work meeting in the sense of task distribution and target focus. The path and ways on how it should be reached where not there and I actually find it cunning of ODA to give us partial information on the events without giving us the full strategic procedure of the operation.
I never expected this plan to work. Nobody should. But that does not mean I don't want its process of falling apart to not make sense and not be entertaining.
I understand that. But then it gets even more complicated when you consider how Luffy's entrance was HIS idea.
And all of the roles the Straw Hats have taken are fairly simple and intuitive. Bege is used as a trojan horse for the launchers, which is what he always does in general. Nami, Carrot, and Chopper wait behind as support for when the Big Mom Pirates swoop in, which is nothing special. They also have the earplugs stated in Bege's plan. Jimbei and Pedro back up Luffy. Again, nothing special. We didn't know what their specific roles were, but their roles were still simple in execution and followed Bege's outline. They aren't doing anything fancy and nothing is contradictory. Only Luffy and Sanji have specific individual roles that drive the whole plan, which was talked about in the plan, while everybody else fulfills intuitive minor roles of support. Support in groups, they aren't even acting individually.
Then you have Brook putting on a mask and doing what was selected to be Luffy's job. Sure, nobody in the meeting said nobody else can try to help, and they shouldn't mind as long as it is broken in general. But Brook came into the plan already prepared for Luffy's failure when the characters did not have a reason to doubt Luffy. We as readers know he might fail for suspense. The characters don't though. And this is something that Brook could only do with Luffy's entrance, not even Bege's generic plan outline. Which is why I find it a bit awkward that there is not a single hint towards Brook's decision.
An author executing a suspenseful plot with partial information can only work if the missing parts intuitively flow with what you know has been established in objectives, mindsets, and factors. You don't just skip to whatever result you want as long as it looks cool without maintaining consistency in characterization and elements in play. That's cheap. Brulee being needed for Luffy's entrance even though she wasn't shown to be that relevant in planning works because of Luffy's single vague statement of having a funny idea for am entrance and being familiar with Brulee's mirror powers and capture in previous chapters. Bege's plan, even if it's a barebones outline of actions with only two-three specific roles mentioned, does not connect with Brook's unique actions. Luffy was selected as the bait to break the picture. Not him. That part of Bege's plan was covered without any more questions asked. Luffy's teased entrance got a clear decisive answer too with no loose ends. And Brook didn't do anything to indicate he would be up to something unconventional.
The specifics of the plan were irrelevant. The idea of the plan was front and center and was explained enough in the Capone exposition. That's all that matters. The subjectivity of whether or not a gag would have worked better if it was explained beforehand is pointless discussion. Likewise, reading into the lack of specifics is irrelevant to whether or not the plan will fail due to the familiar "If a plan is explained something will go wrong".
When Brook destroyed the picture, everyone went "Oh, that makes sense" and laughed it off. This is due to the amount of familiarity we already have with Brook. It is a form of suspending your disbelief for the sake of Brook in costume peeping out of frame with a hammer - aka, the gag. If anything, it's a testament to the amount of work Oda has put into the Straw Hats. Whether or not you prefer such information being said or not said is, again, irrelevant when the most important reaction is again, "Oh, that makes sense".
@Count:
We at least knew Jimbei has been trying to quit Big Mom's crew. And only Luffy was selected to be the bait for breaking the picture.
Luffy was to be the decoy, it was not stated that he had to breack the picture,seems to me that the plan was for brook to breack the picture while luffy was distracting everyone, and luffy being luffy saw the picture and tried to destroy it. Luffy is the decoy so when the pictures breack no one is paying atention to to bege and his men aiming at BM.
@Kaido:
I don't really have a problem with this since it happened in 1 page and was clearly meant for shock/comedy value. Not sure if it warranted a discussion. Next chapter is hopefully when we'll deal with the before and after of it all, and determine whether or not it was good plot progression.
Everything warrants a discussion, mate.
Obviously, not every matter or issue will appeal to everybody.
Discussing the fine tuning of any scene from this series is the reason this forum exists.
Plus, you know, no chapter = slow week. That strongly augments the chance of any discussion getting wierdly specific.
Everything warrants a discussion, mate.
Obviously, not every matter or issue will appeal to everybody.Discussing the fine tuning of any scene from this series is the reason this forum exists.
Plus, you know, no chapter = slow week. That strongly augments the chance of any discussion getting wierdly specific.
This break week being sow is exactly why I wanted to bring up this discussion. Especially for a chapter that everybody seemed pleased with, allowing the topic to make more of an impression. Not that I don't believe in what I'm arguing and will do whatever it takes to create conflict in chapter discussion for the sake of it lol.
Luffy was to be the decoy, it was not stated that he had to breack the picture,seems to me that the plan was for brook to breack the picture while luffy was distracting everyone, and luffy being luffy saw the picture and tried to destroy it. Luffy is the decoy so when the pictures breack no one is paying atention to to bege and his men aiming at BM.
That still doesn't give enough information as to how and why Brook had the idea to put on a disguise for an entrance that Luffy came up with as a tacked on idea. It only goes as far as indicating that Brook could serve a generic support role like Jimbei and Pedro. I want to know how Brook's particular unique role became plausible to think of. Putting on a mask is simple in and of itself, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to come up with doing that on the fly. Then you also have Bege showing his internal thoughts about being worried that Luffy cannot break the picture.
@Game:
The specifics of the plan were irrelevant. The idea of the plan was front and center and was explained enough in the Capone exposition. That's all that matters. The subjectivity of whether or not a gag would have worked better if it was explained beforehand is pointless discussion. Likewise, reading into the lack of specifics is irrelevant to whether or not the plan will fail due to the familiar "If a plan is explained something will go wrong".
When Brook destroyed the picture, everyone went "Oh, that makes sense" and laughed it off. This is due to the amount of familiarity we already have with Brook. It is a form of suspending your disbelief for the sake of Brook in costume peeping out of frame with a hammer - aka, the gag. If anything, it's a testament to the amount of work Oda has put into the Straw Hats. Whether or not you prefer such information being said or not said is, again, irrelevant when the most important reaction is again, "Oh, that makes sense".
Forgive me for the somewhat lengthy reply, but I found your wording about subjectivity, majority opinion, and familiarity in evaluating writing quality to be interesting to bring up, to say the least.
Just because something is a gag or not does most mean that there aren't limits to how much you can maintain suspension of disbelief. Specifics of plans are not irrelevant. They're explicit plotline setups when stated. If you ignore that as an author, you're lazily dropping parts of the plot. That's not good writing. Why would you introduce something to then drop it? That's a waste of time for both creators and fans.
The plan was explained enough for most of the characters except Brook, at least in my perspective. It is not pointless discussion to talk about the effectiveness of a moment, gag or not, just because it already happened. There is a reason why people constructively criticize works in the hopes of enlightening others on how an author could have improved a scene and showing how authors can make better portrayals of these types of scenes. You could just easily say it's irrelevant to discuss why you liked a scene because your opinion is purely subjective. You indirectly said that this whole chapter thread is irrelevant. All possible types of feedback for any particular topic should be allowed in an on-topic qualitative discussion.
Familiarity with characters does not give you, as an author, an excuse to skip out on showing how and why they get to executing pivotal plot roles. It's showing the how and why that promotes suspension of disbelief, not expecting us to roll along with whatever you write. That is what gets us invested into liking stories and characters. Sure, you can shoehorn in plenty of short obvious moments of "That's so like them, ha ha", but not at the expense of immersion into the logic of the plot or seeing them showcase how they can make progress in overcoming imposing obstacles and protecting what they value just because you already know what they are out of familiarity. And I still don't see how Brook disguising himself as his captain without proper context is in familiarly in-character than Brook other than that he's doing something generally funny and trying to help his friends defeat somebody, which are two extremely broad and generic actions that you can use to describe many people in this series without specifics. We're all familiar with the dreams of the Straw Hats and how they defeat villains in each and every arc, but that does not mean we skip out on being engaged in getting enough visual information about how they make progress on those dreams and overcome their opponents because we're used to it happening. That's exactly why I don't really like Chopper and Robin anymore, because they only fulfill minor support roles that skip out on giving them enough focused panel time to get invested in their efforts and capabilities as main characters we are meant to support and empathize with. Seeing them heal people and read Poneglyphs alone is not enough, let alone when it theoretically doesn't seem to make sense in the current plot.
I should not have to be forced to suspend my disbelief in a story, that completely goes against the point of reading a story for consistently told escapism and real life inspiration. You don't get to do whatever you want in a story and tell your readers "Oh, you're complaining about why so and so is possible even if I didn't properly build up how it's possible ahainst the odds? Be quiet and just pretend it makes sense because it's supposed to be funny/sad/heartwarming/etc." If an author wants to make a reader naturally feel emotional responses to your writing, they should put the work into making that be feasible and make sense.
Putting a lot of work into your characters before does not mean you suddenly stop putting in work because their personalities and roles become familiar. That's rushing your story and, if anything, becoming disinterested in writing about those characters. As if it's cycle. I think that's pretty depressing to do to your supposedly beloved characters who have carried your whole story. Seeing how thet keep doing what they do is why continue to read and watch them.
Gags don't solely work because you have to suspend disbelief for them. Gags work because they cleverly subvert your expectations into looking goofier than you expected, especially with good timing. Ignoring inconsistency or lack of reasons for a gag happening is not an inhetent element of a gag. I don't even see how that's supposed to make sense. As if it's okay for Luffy to start talking about how he wishes that he could eat some meat in the middle of moments like Merry's funeral or fighting Rob Lucci after he threatens to kill Usopp. Or have Usopp defeat Enel with his rubber band attack because it would be funny despite not making sense.
We always need certain relative amounts of information so that a comic book, or any entertainment medium with a narrative, makes sense while still keeping us entertained (and also making those moments be more entertaining than they would be out of context). Not getting enough information for either the plot or what is supposed to get a specific reaction out of younis essential to good writing. You don't automatically conform to everybody else's satisfied opinion purely because they felt they had enough information and you disagree. That argument of automatically favoring the majority's opinion of thinking something makes sense as if it is objective truth is what's actually subjective.
I completely understand generally disagreeing with me about the quality of Brook's cliffhanger, but what exactly is your post trying to say? At least everybody else I debated with reasonably explained their thoughts on how they think Brook's actions make sense with actual counterarguments about their impressions of reading the last several chapters. All I got out of your post is that we should accept funny things happening in the plot because it's funny even if you don't think it makes sense. As if humor is always the priority in a story as if how it's how it's done doesn't matter. Details are apparently subjective irrelevamce. You don't make good stories because you put forth random ideas and tropes you want in your story. Proper execution in making those ideas and tropes realized in a sensible fashion is just as essential. Otherwise, they are not effective for immersing readers. Making your creative efforts redundant. So then what's the point other than hoping you appease people with a short attention span who get pleased with whatever is flashy to them?
I don't mean any personal disrespect towards you, but you really didn't argue anything concrete. Your post boils down to saying my opinion is wrong because it's a different opinion and an opinion in general. As if what you yourself said is not also an opinion about my opinion. The whole forum exists for the point of posting opinions and dissecting the rationality behind the reasons supporting those opinions for the betterment of our knowledge and entertainment. Or in other words, it's about discussing our subjectivity in the hopes that we can find the one with the most adherent logic that is the closest to what may be the objective truth without forcing one another to believe what we argue. So forgive me if I don't see the point in criticizing somebody for giving a subjective comment without really bothering to go into detail about how your own subjective view is more correct and/or important. No type of subjectively-based discussion is automatically pointless. Or else these chapter threads as a whole are pointless. Discussing a gag may seem trivial, I admit, but it's not pointless as we are all fans of entertainment and want to have standards by valuing well-written works over immensely flawed ones.
In short, if the reaction Oda is looking for is "That makes sense", it didn't work for me. Unless my subjective opinion is naturally irrelevant and everybody else's isn't for some reason.
@Count:
Then you have Brook putting on a mask and doing what was selected to be Luffy's job. Sure, nobody in the meeting said nobody else can try to help, and they shouldn't mind as long as it is broken in general. But Brook came into the plan already prepared for Luffy's failure when the characters did not have a reason to doubt Luffy. We as readers know he might fail for suspense. The characters don't though. And this is something that Brook could only do with Luffy's entrance, not even Bege's generic plan outline. Which is why I find it a bit awkward that there is not a single hint towards Brook's decision.
This is probably one of the main reason why I disagree. I consider being prepared for complications to be normal in plan. Crocodile had a back-up plan for his bomb, Zoro planned on beating despite proving time and time again he has complete fate on Luffy. Taking precaution is not doubting people or something you do when you are nervous, it's simply being prudent. I doubt Brook planned on breaking the thing but being part of the chaos made it so he could backup whoever or whatever if the need arise.
This is probably one of the main reason why I disagree. I consider being prepared for complications to be normal in plan. Crocodile had a back-up plan for his bomb, Zoro planned on beating despite proving time and time again he has complete fate on Luffy. Taking precaution is not doubting people or something you do when you are nervous, it's simply being prudent. I doubt Brook planned on breaking the thing but being part of the chaos made it so he could backup whoever or whatever if the need arise.
The thing about Crocodile having a backup for his plan is that One Piece is not told from his perspective. The heroes of the story are gradually learning about the full scope of his plan at the same time that we are. So unless we get words right out of his mouth and concrete evidence that his plan does not have a contingency, a contingency can still be possible. Not that he can't have a backup plan that doesn't make sense, but having one in general is still fine since it doesn't go against how big on plans he is.
Brook wearing a mask allows him to be backup, yes. But what is the reason for Brook not simply acting as backup without a disguise like Jimbei and Pedro? That is what I'm concerned about. You only go that far while nobody else is in following the general outline of a plan you have some sort of concerns about it. Or you're a really weird and spontaneous person. Why is Brook being the most standout prudent person? That's all I want some build-up for. Even one quick panel of it.
@Count:
This break week being sow is exactly why I wanted to bring up this discussion. Especially for a chapter that everybody seemed pleased with, allowing the topic to make more of an impression. Not that I don't believe in what I'm arguing and will do whatever it takes to create conflict in chapter discussion for the sake of it lol.
That still doesn't give enough information as to how and why Brook had the idea to put on a disguise for an entrance that Luffy came up with as a tacked on idea. It only goes as far as indicating that Brook could serve a generic support role like Jimbei and Pedro. I want to know how Brook's particular unique role became plausible to think of. Putting on a mask is simple in and of itself, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to come up with doing that on the fly. Then you also have Bege showing his internal thoughts about being worried that Luffy cannot break the picture.
If he got the idea it should have been when luffy got the animals, wich happend a few hours before the wedding, or could just as well have been nami's or jimbe's idea. He can easily be part of the plan of wich we were not given much details,and bege went to start preparations so he may not be aware of the strawhats entire plans, since he told them to cocentrate on rescuing sanji's family and he would concentrate on the assessination.
If he got the idea it should have been when luffy got the animals, wich happend a few hours before the wedding, or could just as well have been nami's or jimbe's idea. He can easily be part of the plan of wich we were not given much details,and bege went to start preparations so he may not be aware of the strawhats entire plans, since he told them to cocentrate on rescuing sanji's family and he would concentrate on the assessination.
I know that there are time intervals where Brook could have came up with the plan, like right after Luffy explained it or when the animals got collected like you said. But I still feel that there should be some indication that this role would be created though, as this only leaves room for pure assumption than any groundwork for Brook's state of thought for his motive.
Brook's role can be given off-panel, but a role as specific and unorthodox as his compared to the other crew members should be hinted at in my eyes. I can get that the Straw Hats and Bege can think of it, but I would still like to see what exactly would cause them to since the rest of the plan, as unspecific as it sounds, already seems satisfactory enough to follow for them.
@Count:
I know that there are time intervals where Brook could have came up with the plan, like right after Luffy explained it or when the animals got collected like you said. But I still feel that there should be some indication that this role would be created though, as this only leaves room for pure assumption than any groundwork for Brook's state of thought for his motive.
Brook's role can be given off-panel, but a role as specific and unorthodox as his compared to the other crew members should be hinted at in my eyes. I can get that the Straw Hats and Bege can think of it, but I would still like to see what exactly would cause them to since the rest of the plan, as unspecific as it sounds, already seems satisfactory enough to follow for them.
So basically you wont be happy until you know how his disguise came to be.
So basically you wont be happy until you know how his disguise came to be.
Precisely. Or at least more specifically, the moment that prompted Brook or somebody else to come up with the disguise. I don't need to see the surprise twist being revealed early, just the moment leading up to it.
@Count:
Precisely. Or at least more specifically, the moment that prompted Brook or somebody else to come up with the disguise. I don't need to see the surprise twist being revealed early, just the moment leading up to it.
I think that showing any moment leading up it would have ruin the surprise, but is most likely that that moment will be shown in next chapter.
I get where Count is coming from.
It's not so much that Oda needs to hint at an outcome.
It boils down to Oda should be creating a complex enough story to the extent that he can offer a hint and we still shouldn't be able to expect the outcome.
If, here, Oda did offer a hint that Brook was up to something, there'd be plenty of hype, but it would have been possible to accurately guess his role as a helper. Not saying I would have, just it wouldn't have been nearly as surprising.
But the best surprises are ones that have hints, logical build up and STILL manage to catch us off guard.
I'm not saying this is easy to accomplish but Oda has done it before. Example, the 'nakama' bandages. They were used in a completely different way from how we expected them to be. That was legit.
Here, Brook destroying the picture was awesome but if Oda had created a scenario where we thought we knew what Brook was up to only for him to completely overcome those expectations with something even better like destroying the pic, it had the potential to be even better.
It's a very nitpicky complaint but also an important one and one that Oda should hear.
Me? No problem with it this time but I know where Count is coming from and it's something Oda doesn't successfully pull off as much as he used to.
@Count:
Just because something is a gag or not does most mean that there aren't limits to how much you can maintain suspension of disbelief. Specifics of plans are not irrelevant. They're explicit plotline setups when stated. If you ignore that as an author, you're lazily dropping parts of the plot. That's not good writing. Why would you introduce something to then drop it? That's a waste of time for both creators and fans.
Not true whatsoever. Exposition is a tool, and like many tools, there are many ways to further a story without it. In the same chapter, we see a lanky brook jumping out of the cake. It's shown, not told. Exposition is usually the lazy way out. Specifics of a plan are irrelevant if they irrelevant to the story. In vaudeville film, anything outside the frame is irrelevant because it irrelevant to the story. This can broadly used for any sort of medium. Why have more dialogue about Brook's actions when you can spend a panel showing him in action? The in-betweens or specifics of what exactly happens point per point is useless when a) you can show not tell it and b) things don't go to plan if the plan is told.
@Count:
Familiarity with characters does not give you, as an author, an excuse to skip out on showing how and why they get to executing pivotal plot roles.
Not true either. If you've spent 20 years invested in building a character, that character may then preform actions that they could do without having to be told they're about to do it. Looney Tunes is a master of this. Wile E. Coyote will always fail no matter his contraption, and thus, you can skip the specifics and move on to the punchline - the failure.
@Count:
I should not have to be forced to suspend my disbelief in a story, that completely goes against the point of reading a story for consistently told escapism and real life inspiration.
Suspension of disbelief is not a negative. It is accepting something as is and to appreciate it as is. The milk joke this same arc with Luffy and Brook is a fantastic example of suspension of disbelief. Zoro chewing and eating razor blades during Punk Hazard is another example of suspending disbelief. A non-gag example would be Crocodile's ability to suck out the moisture out of living things because of his sand or Sabo and Koala both somehow ending up together in the Revolutionary army despite their relevance to two important characters.
@Count:
Gags don't solely work because you have to suspend disbelief for them. Gags work because they cleverly subvert your expectations into looking goofier than you expected, especially with good timing. Ignoring inconsistency or lack of reasons for a gag happening is not an inhetent element of a gag. I don't even see how that's supposed to make sense. As if it's okay for Luffy to start talking about how he wishes that he could eat some meat in the middle of moments like Merry's funeral or fighting Rob Lucci after he threatens to kill Usopp. Or have Usopp defeat Enel with his rubber band attack because it would be funny despite not making sense.
I completely understand generally disagreeing with me about the quality of Brook's cliffhanger, but what exactly is your post trying to say? At least everybody else I debated with reasonably explained their thoughts on how they think Brook's actions make sense with actual counterarguments about their impressions of reading the last several chapters. All I got out of your post is that we should accept funny things happening in the plot because it's funny even if you don't think it makes sense. As if humor is always the priority in a story as if how it's how it's done doesn't matter. Details are apparently subjective irrelevamce. You don't make good stories because you put forth random ideas and tropes you want in your story. Proper execution in making those ideas and tropes realized in a sensible fashion is just as essential. Otherwise, they are not effective for immersing readers. Making your creative efforts redundant. So then what's the point other than hoping you appease people with a short attention span who get pleased with whatever is flashy to them?
You're arguing about things I never said and you've assumed.
Greg got what I was trying to say to a T.
For the record, I still like Brook shining like this. I merely prefer a balance of hints, logic, and surprise as the standard to reach for. Otherwise, I can feel like the author took a bit of an easy way out in conveying a twist by completely (or at least nearly) off-paneling the hint and logic elements in that recipe. Not that every author has the foresight to make every twist be realized in such a satisfying way, especially with Oda's working schedule and how this arc is filled with twists. But it still would have been so awesome to think that Brook would do one minor thing from a hint only to end up breaking the picture than only having the latter without any hints.
I can look past this, but I wanted to make this knowledge of how twists can be excellently done publicly known since the chapter was universally liked without any complaints, at least outside of the Vinsmokes and Smoothie not doing anything. The nakama bandages are the perfect example of a surprising, yet feasible and built-up twist. Or maybe Luffy hiding inside of Megalo in Fishman Island too.
@Game:
Not true whatsoever. Exposition is a tool, and like many tools, there are many ways to further a story without it. In the same chapter, we see a lanky brook jumping out of the cake. It's shown, not told. Exposition is usually the lazy way out. Specifics of a plan are irrelevant if they irrelevant to the story. In vaudeville film, anything outside the frame is irrelevant because it irrelevant to the story. This can broadly used for any sort of medium. Why have more dialogue about Brook's actions when you can spend a panel showing him in action? The in-betweens or specifics of what exactly happens point per point is useless when a) you can show not tell it and b) things don't go to plan if the plan is told.
We see Brook jumping out of the cake, but that does not actually show why he jumped out the cake with the Fake Luffy's. The issue I'm presenting is how he got his mindset behind his role in the plan, not seeing him execute said role after deciding to do it.
Exposition is not the only tool that can be utilized to further a story, I completely agree. But you still need some type of tool. You don't just skip out on applying one in general. That's what this latest chapter did. It showed how Brook broke the picture by wearing a disguise, but it and previous chapters did not indicate how Brook came to wear the disguise in the first place. I never said that we needed exposition to build-up Brook wearing a disguise. We could have easily gotten a visual cue like Brook being apprehensive and appearing to be hiding something or whatnot. It's not only the action that matters, convincing lead-up to that action is just as essential. That is not an irrelevant detail. You need it so that the action has reasoning and purpose. It doesn't matter if we know the plan is going to work or not because we need to show how it falls apart or proves to be successful either way. We don't need to know every detail, but what are the essential details are seeing how the plan is executed and knowing what led to the roles that were executed. Otherwise, it's cheap convenience without thought put into the suspense.
Suspense, in Alfred Hitchcock's own paraphrased words, are about offering enough breadcrumbs to the audience to understandably follow the flow of a narrative's progression without completely letting them predict what will happen. Knowing what pieces are at play and spurring their minds to wonder what will happen with those pieces, not extra pieces that are added at the last minute. It's a balance. Both the means and the ends are important for continuity that immerses the audience, not simply the latter.
Not true either. If you've spent 20 years invested in building a character, that character may then preform actions that they could do without having to be told they're about to do it. Looney Tunes is a master of this. Wile E. Coyote will always fail no matter his contraption, and thus, you can skip the specifics and move on to the punchline - the failure.
Looney Tunes isn't exactly the best example due to their simplistic episodic stories. But even then, Wile's motivations are always simplistic enough to understand. He's a predator, Road Runner is prey. That doesn't mean you skip seeing HOW his plans fail. Otherwise, the punchline lacks, well, the punch. The fun comes from seeing how Road Runner, on purpose or not, manages to make his schemes fall apart. Not something completely random happening like Wile getting struck by lightning in a clear sunny day in the middle of an elaborate plan, or a new gadget he made falling apart out of sheer convenience than its instability being built-up. That's forcing a result rather than letting it happen more naturally. You can't rely solely on familiarity, you still need to care about making the plot make sense. Which you need to do in an episodic series like Looney Tunes where every episode is supposed to be accessible for viewers even if they're watching for the very first time.
Suspension of disbelief is not a negative. It is accepting something as is and to appreciate it as is. The milk joke this same arc with Luffy and Brook is a fantastic example of suspension of disbelief. Zoro chewing and eating razor blades during Punk Hazard is another example of suspending disbelief. A non-gag example would be Crocodile's ability to suck out the moisture out of living things because of his sand or Sabo and Koala both somehow ending up together in the Revolutionary army despite their relevance to two important characters.
But the milk joke makes sense because it's common knowledge that it's a source of calcium, as well as being familiar with how goofy the series. It's not simply the latter element of familiarity, it's the combination of logic and consistency. They were also in an area where rations would be nearby.We see our main characters heal from those injuries all of the time, and those never got explained in a similar fashion. What would have made the scene make less sense would be if one of them pulled out milk in the middle of the arc, like right after the fight with Cracker. They should have no reason to keep milk at hand, especially when they aren't carrying any bags and were just in a rough battle. Drinking the milk would still be funny, but also weird and oddly convenient because they shouldn't have it in the first place.
Koala ending up in the Revolutionary Army makes sense because of how the last time we saw her was over a decade ago, knowing that she was a slave in Mariejois, and witnessing the Sun Pirates both fight against oppression and return her back to human society. Sabo's backstory is all about hating corrupt nobles, and he met Dragon (who we already knew was from Goa Kingdom or at least had a connection to it as Luffy's father). Those two characters' backstories aren't even related, so it's not a significant coincidence that they're a part of the same faction.
I'm not arguing against suspension of disbelief. I'm merely saying it has to be EARNED from the writer putting in effort to make their writing appear consistent. It shouldn't be treated as a switch you can turn on and off whenever it's convenient for a twist you don't put effort into having make sense and just want a cheap surprise for the sake of it.
You're arguing about things I never said and you've assumed.
You literally said that we have to suspend our disbelief for the sake of gags working and that preferring whether information is given or not is irrelevant. Making blanket statements like that and making the reader responsible for being immersed instead of the authors effort is an ignorant line of thinking. Gags work well because they work off a consistent train of thought that subverts expectations, but are still consistent in showing the reader how and why they happen. In your eyes, the efficiency of gags in how they can be build-up or explained beforehand to any variable is, and I quote "subjective" and "pointless discussion". Humor can and should make sense in the context of a narrative, even if it is exaggerated to cartoony levels.