If the Vinsmokes have to be saved, there's nothing more I want to see then someone in the BM Pirates (Let's say that huge guy with the living bicorne last chapter) just kick the absoulte crap out of them after the initial salvo of bullets, and when they are at his mercy, Sanji knocks him away and these pricks have to eat crow. That's the only way this whole thing will work.
Chapter 856: Liar
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I wonder why the shadows had to take out Bobbin? he wasn't being too much of a bother. Maybe his sleep powers would have caused problems to their plan? Or maybe they just ran across him and didn't want any witnesses.
Btw I'm Gotti is the guy in the middle. He would be in the middle because he would have shot Bobbin with his arm thing. Then Bege is on the left but Idk who would be the women on the right….
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I wonder why the shadows had to take out Bobbin? he wasn't being too much of a bother. Maybe his sleep powers would have caused problems to their plan? Or maybe they just ran across him and didn't want any witnesses.
Btw I'm Gotti is the guy in the middle. He would be in the middle because he would have shot Bobbin with his arm thing. Then Bege is on the left but Idk who would be the women on the right….
if the objective is taking out the entire crew, why not start from the guy who is wandering alone in the streets..it's one less enemy for tomorrow
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if the objective is taking out the entire crew, why not start from the guy who is wandering alone in the streets..it's one less enemy for tomorrow
Or they don't want him to stop or bother Sanji. They most likely observes in the shadows lol.
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I think there's a bit of an errant perspective on power levels, at least with regards to Bobbin, the island he destroyed, and the Straw Hats. This series has shown that powerful characters who earn bounties around 100 million are usually more than capable of tearing through average people. Exceptions exist, such as the Mink Tribe, but overall Dressrosa more or less represents the average strength of an island's citizens. Just look at the Straw Hats in Enies Lobby; they tore through the Marine mooks before eventually taking on the assassins of CP9 one on one, the weakest of which was as strong as 63 soldiers and the strongest of which was as strong as 400 soldiers. Not to mention the scene with Luffy, Kid, and Law on Sabaody. So there's no real need to disbelieve that Bobbin was capable of burning an island to the ground. But why should we expect him to be significantly more powerful than the Straw Hats, who did the actions I mentioned in Paradise?
Not to mention that Bobbin has never actually been seen in a real battle; he was ambushed by Sanji and now by the Firetank Pirates. Luffy has gotten snared by ambushes and traps before, but that doesn't mean he's weak. And as for his bounty, it's not like the fact that he massacred a single island necessitates that his bounty should be higher. Kid got a big bounty for causing huge amounts of casualties everywhere he went. Jack too to a MUCH more extreme degree, as his presence on an enemy island is compared to a monster weather phenomenon. Meanwhile, we only know of one island that Bobbin destroyed, and I'm gonna take a guess that it's far from a common occurrence, given that Big Mom relies on these islands for candy production and seems to still be well equipped on that front. So it's all about perspective.
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Oda keeps cutting out the fat and giving us the lean mean story we need.
Luffy does what I've been hoping so many characters from so many manga should have been doing for years.
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Wait, people were hyping up Bobbin? I mean, sure he looks cool and all, but what warranted him to be a cut above the rest?
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@The:
Wait, people were hyping up Bobbin? I mean, sure he looks cool and all, but what warranted him to be a cut above the rest?
He was introduced since fishman island next to BM,PUdding, tamago, pekoms and all 4 guys are important and you can see why they got introduced so early. And he didn't show any fear towards BM and just got back from wrecking some country.
People had reasons to expect something from Bobbin. Not that it's all over, his sleeping power has to play some kind of role or why else oda teased that.
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Lao G, Machvise, Jora, and Sugar were among the first Donquixote Pirates seen other than the ones on Punk Hazard, and only Sugar had any real significance.
Scotch, Sheepshead, and Ginrummy were the first members of the Beasts Pirates seen and all three were relatively weak against Super Rookies.
It's been more of a precedent to show the average guys and the boss first and then reveal the upper tier fighters later. Happened with Baroque Works and the random zombies on Thriller Bark; CP9 was one of the few if not the only real inversion.
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Sorry if this has been said before, but I loved that the dog is still hanging around in that area barking. He never leaves.
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Sorry if this has been said before, but I loved that the dog is still hanging around in that area barking. He never leaves.
He has to protect his turf, mang!!
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People thought Bobbin was higher than Tamago and Pekoms because while they were shown collecting candies, he was sent to destroy an island, and while they seemed afraid of BM he was perfectly fine around her (although this could be easily explained by the different situations they were in).
So, yeah, the hype was completely baseless. We did get a hint of his strength this arc, though, when the Vinsmoke mentioned him as one of the strong guys in BM crew.In his defense, though, he came back unfazed from Sanji's kick to his face and we don't know the circumstances of his defeat, so it's too early to judge him. I suppose, just like everyone in BM crew, we are supposed to believe he is a monster because Oda says so, but on screen he won't do anything to back those claims up.
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@uniaka:
He was introduced since fishman island next to BM,PUdding, tamago, pekoms and all 4 guys are important and you can see why they got introduced so early. And he didn't show any fear towards BM and just got back from wrecking some country.
People had reasons to expect something from Bobbin. Not that it's all over, his sleeping power has to play some kind of role or why else oda teased that.
I see. I guess it just comes down to me not being interested in Bobbin enough back then to endorse the hype.
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So, this chapter, i'm underwhelmed by it. Two things in particular bother me.
The chemistry between Luffy and Sanji just doesn't do anything for me. Sanji feeding Luffy after Luffy makes such a big fuss about it has no emotional gravitas to it at all. Luffy eats, feels better, and Sanji makes bullshit excuses to scare Luffy off. So when Luffy calls Sanji out on his bullshit, Sanji spills his guts, and there's just nothing to that. It's not like Nami asking for help with Arlong, or Robin declaring her desire to live. Sanji says a bunch of words but there's no power in what's being said. This does not feel like a pivotal moment. That's a damn shame, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
The other grievance I have is Sanji wanting to save the Vinsmokes. Now I can understand Sanji not being eager to see them die, as he is not a bloodthirsty type of person, that makes sense. But wanting to actively save them is nonsense. I don't believe it. Even taking the point of Sanji having greater empathy than his family into account, even on a thematic and poetic level, it sounds ridiculous. If i'm being honest he comes across as too naive. But more than anything else, I believe the biggest detriment to this is Sanji not having enough meaningful interactions with the Vinsmokes. He's not close to these people, they still feel like strangers. This development reads as inauthentic.
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@.access:
People thought Bobbin was higher than Tamago and Pekoms because while they were shown collecting candies, he was sent to destroy an island, and while they seemed afraid of BM he was perfectly fine around her
For what it's worth, at this point I think we should be prepared to accept that anybody who is somebody in the New World can, and occasionally does, destroy islands or raze small towns. It's not even a prowess, since there are plenty of mundane people who live in the New World. Hell, Buggy used to destroy towns. Like bounties, it shouldn't be taken at face value. If anything, I saw that as an indication that the Big Mom pirates were a bunch of freaks who meant business and not to be taken lightly, but indeed it said nowhere that this should have been a testimony to Bobbin's strength.
Edit: d'oh, I'd missed Kaido's post on the previous page.
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@Kaido:
I think there's a bit of an errant perspective on power levels, at least with regards to Bobbin, the island he destroyed, and the Straw Hats. This series has shown that powerful characters who earn bounties around 100 million are usually more than capable of tearing through average people. Exceptions exist, such as the Mink Tribe, but overall Dressrosa more or less represents the average strength of an island's citizens. Just look at the Straw Hats in Enies Lobby; they tore through the Marine mooks before eventually taking on the assassins of CP9 one on one, the weakest of which was as strong as 63 soldiers and the strongest of which was as strong as 400 soldiers. Not to mention the scene with Luffy, Kid, and Law on Sabaody. So there's no real need to disbelieve that Bobbin was capable of burning an island to the ground. But why should we expect him to be significantly more powerful than the Straw Hats, who did the actions I mentioned in Paradise?
Not to mention that Bobbin has never actually been seen in a real battle; he was ambushed by Sanji and now by the Firetank Pirates. Luffy has gotten snared by ambushes and traps before, but that doesn't mean he's weak. And as for his bounty, it's not like the fact that he massacred a single island necessitates that his bounty should be higher. Kid got a big bounty for causing huge amounts of casualties everywhere he went. Jack too to a MUCH more extreme degree, as his presence on an enemy island is compared to a monster weather phenomenon. Meanwhile, we only know of one island that Bobbin destroyed, and I'm gonna take a guess that it's far from a common occurrence, given that Big Mom relies on these islands for candy production and seems to still be well equipped on that front. So it's all about perspective.
I wasn't really thinking of the amount of power he needed to burn an island. I was thinking more along the lines that he was the person that was leading the group. I would figure that it would be of relative importance and considering the amount of people qualified to go do that he would lead some pretty strong people. Tho as you mentioned we have seen nothing to say he is weak other than his bounty, which really isn't a good barometer
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Great chapter.
It seems I'm one of the few ones that think that is loving Sanji's development in this arc. Everything makes sense and is well connected IMO.
Now, I'm expecting the whole gang to meet up and cook up a plan (with an awesome name given by Jinbe). I think that Sanji will be able to find a solution to this seemingly impossible situation now that he will be aware of things he didn't know (some that we readers know already and some that will be revealed by Jinbe).
One of the things I liked the most in this chapter is Sanji saying he wanted to save his family. Him thinking of dying with them was the only thing that seemed out of character 2 chapters ago. I'm glad to see that he wasn't actually fine with letting them die.
I still believe that the brothers will be saved. They may be assholes now but that just wouldn't feel right to me if Oda decides to let them stay that way after what their mother did to try to save them. -
The "hype" for Bobbin is completely understandable, when you consider the framing of his first appearance. The prospect of Big Moms wrath was the current major conflict of the Fishman Island arc, a threat treated as much more dire than the New Fishman Pirates conflict. Its the first real post-skip appearance of an emperor, and Big Mom is presented as impossible to confront, with diplomacy being the only way to avoid wholesale island destruction. And during this conversation, in walks Bobbin, fresh off a wholesale island-destroying mission. Pekoms and Tamago are fitfully trying to reason with Big Mom, Pudding looks uncomfortable, but Bobbin unfazed in her presence. Or in other words, Fishman Island is under threat from unstoppable wrath of Big Mom, Bobbin is simultaneously introduced as an enforcer of the unstoppable wrath of Big Mom. Like, a guy they'd be forced to face had the dealings gone south.
No, the manga did not explicitly label him as "superdupermegastrong top tier Big Mom soldier Bobbin", but he was absolutely used to enforce the image of Big Moms power. and thus, through the framing of the story, he's implicitly hyped. Even with his lack of focus in Totland, old-school OP logic would dictate that he'd get more than a few pages of focus, and a decent showing of competence. But along with Tamago, it sort of feels like Oda felt obliged to use these old characters, but didn't want to make them top-tier fighters, and thus scrambled to find some minor utilities for them.
In retrospect, the threat of Bobbin arriving at Fishman Island seems minor, but thats not how it was sold in that moment. Bobbin being discarded is a comparatively small deal, but its not hard to see why people would think him important.
Side note: I don't mind Bobbin being discarded too much, because it builds up intrigue for the wedding, which is good considering double-cross #1 against the Vinsmokes is already out in the open.
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@Kaido:
They would gain her crew, and with her out of the picture their influence over the world would be rivaled by few. They're just more interested in conquering North Blue than they are the Grand Line. But I do agree that the assailants were definitely the Firetanks.
I really doubt any of the Vinsmokes could stand a chance with any of the Sweet Commanders.
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Just went back, and check that he only appeared in three-panels with nothing threatening/hype worthy about him, and the only thing standing out about him was his design.
So yea this "hype" seems to be imaginary.
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The other grievance I have is Sanji wanting to save the Vinsmokes. Now I can understand Sanji not being eager to see them die, as he is not a bloodthirsty type of person, that makes sense. But wanting to actively save them is nonsense. I don't believe it. Even taking the point of Sanji having greater empathy than his family into account, even on a thematic and poetic level, it sounds ridiculous. If i'm being honest he comes across as too naive. But more than anything else, I believe the biggest detriment to this is Sanji not having enough meaningful interactions with the Vinsmokes. He's not close to these people, they still feel like strangers. This development reads as inauthentic.
They're not strangers, though. Sanji knows them all too well.
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Fishman island is under threat of unavoidable destruction by the Big Mom pirates- by the way, heres a new Big Mom pirate whos' just destroyed an island, and casually asks if Fishman Island should be destroyed as well.
That was the hype.
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Hype.
Although I still believe Bobbin will do something in the future.
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Hype.
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Loved the chapter…..the three shadows has me intrigued. Can't wait to see what the forces against mama comes up with. Bege and strawhat gonna rip things apart.
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Hype.
Although I still believe Bobbin will do something in the future.
Hype.
Possibly Android 18.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Just went back, and check that he only appeared in three-panels with nothing threatening/hype worthy about him, and the only thing standing out about him was his design.
So yea this "hype" seems to be imaginary.
He wasn't hyped for me.
People probably went off the assumption that he was good because he talked in front of big mom once and didn't seem scared.
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They're not strangers, though. Sanji knows them all too well.
I didn't mean it literally. I'm saying Sanji prioritizing their well being, based on what we've seen of his interactions with them so far, lacks earnest.
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Hype.
Although I still believe Bobbin will do something in the future.
Hype.
Thats nowhere near an applicable example; the contexts are wildly different. Scotch appears in a cover story wherein he instantly proceeds to gets soundly defeated by pushover Caribou. The cover story is his second appearance, with him doing nothing in the first except being suggested as a stepping stone for Drake. There is no hype built up for Scotch, and if there was, nothing is reatained when you get beaten by Caribou.
Bobbins first appearance starts and ends with his dignity intact. He's presented as capable of the exact thing everyone is trying to avoid happening to Fishman Island. The language of the scene tells us that if Big Mom had dispatched Bobbin to Fishman Island, as per his suggestion, then it'd have been bad news. That does constitute "hype".
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Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but what if BM is having Bege set up the Vinsmokes as betraying her, thus she can kill them with good reason.
She has Bege "kill" Pekoms and, potentially Bobbin, to frame the Vinsmokes, and allow her to kill them without going against their deal.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but what if BM is having Bege set up the Vinsmokes as betraying her, thus she can kill them with good reason.
She has Bege "kill" Pekoms and, potentially Bobbin, to frame the Vinsmokes, and allow her to kill them without going against their deal.
Big Mom needs a reason to kill a family of assassin soldiers in her own domain?
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Big Mom needs a reason to kill a family of assassin soldiers in her own domain?
It would certainly look better for her than just straight out murdering them.
If she is planning on taking over Germa it might help her case in convincing the other people in their kingdom that what she did was justified.
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It would certainly look better for her than just straight out murdering them.
If she is planning on taking over Germa it might help her case in convincing the other people in their kingdom that what she did was justified.
I don't think you know Big Mom very well.
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So bigmom planning a double cross…seems like she will get double crossed by bege n company probably after she reveals her double cross..might have some other parties involved too other than just bege's crew, probably some of the invitees for the tea party.
Big Mom would probably lose a lot more than copies of the poneglyphs.
Germa connection will be gone.
Fishmen alliance
Tank Pirates
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@Buggy:
So bigmom planning a double cross…seems like she will get double crossed by bege n company probably after she reveals her double cross..might have some other parties involved too other than just bege's crew, probably some of the invitees for the tea party.
Big Mom would probably lose a lot more than copies of the poneglyphs.
Germa connection will be gone.
Fishmen alliance
Tank Pirates
???Could lose CC too, he's definitely willing to escape.
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I've begun to wonder if Sanji will able to stop the massacre, but not necessarily stop Germa 66 being absorbed into the Big Mom pirates, only in a much more subservient role than they'd intended. That seems like a particularly karmic comeuppance to me.
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er… i don't really see Nami and Robin's vibes from the Sanji's scene, i mean, i didn't feel like Sanji was crying for help to luffy but rather than crying out of shame because of his own empathy, like he feels ashamed for not having what it takes to just let the family that abused him throughout his whole childhood die like that (even though is mostly because of his sister, but still...) so he cried, and his surprise is because luffy accepted sanji's nature naturally instead of thinking it was stupid... like Sanji himself does
i know a lot of people just see this scene as a sad rip off of Robin and Nami's scene, but i don't think that was what Oda planned... he just butchered the dialog and the pannels, like having sanji saying in a huge pannel "i want to comeback to Sunny go" was not needed, and obviously reminds people of the previous Mugiwara scenes unfortunately, but anyway... didn't feel like a rip off to me, but rather not perfectly executed
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@Daz:
Thats nowhere near an applicable example; the contexts are wildly different. Scotch appears in a cover story wherein he instantly proceeds to gets soundly defeated by pushover Caribou. The cover story is his second appearance, with him doing nothing in the first except being suggested as a stepping stone for Drake. There is no hype built up for Scotch, and if there was, nothing is reatained when you get beaten by Caribou.
Bobbins first appearance starts and ends with his dignity intact. He's presented as capable of the exact thing everyone is trying to avoid happening to Fishman Island. The language of the scene tells us that if Big Mom had dispatched Bobbin to Fishman Island, as per his suggestion, then it'd have been bad news. That does constitute "hype".
I distinctly remember Bobbin being with a group of henchmen when he spoke with Big Mom, so it's not like he did it alone.
Plus, if we're gonna use the context argument, then we have point out that Bobbin had just completed his mission whereas Pekoms and Tamago were close to failing theirs, so they had a reason to be scared.
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It would certainly look better for her than just straight out murdering them.
If she is planning on taking over Germa it might help her case in convincing the other people in their kingdom that what she did was justified.
She's Big Mom, she doesn't have to justify anything to her followers.
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er… i don't really see Nami and Robin's vibes from the Sanji's scene, i mean, i didn't feel like Sanji was crying for help to luffy but rather than crying out of shame because of his own empathy, like he feels ashamed for not having what it takes to just let the family that abused him throughout his whole childhood die like that (even though is mostly because of his sister, but still...) so he cried, and his surprise is because luffy accepted sanji's nature naturally instead of thinking it was stupid... like Sanji himself does
I like this interpretation.
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er… i don't really see Nami and Robin's vibes from the Sanji's scene, i mean, i didn't feel like Sanji was crying for help to luffy but rather than crying out of shame because of his own empathy, like he feels ashamed for not having what it takes to just let the family that abused him throughout his whole childhood die like that (even though is mostly because of his sister, but still...) so he cried, and his surprise is because luffy accepted sanji's nature naturally instead of thinking it was stupid... like Sanji himself does
i know a lot of people just see this scene as a sad rip off of Robin and Nami's scene, but i don't think that was what Oda planned... he just butchered the dialog and the pannels, like having sanji saying in a huge pannel "i want to comeback to Sunny go" was not needed, and obviously reminds people of the previous Mugiwara scenes unfortunately, but anyway... didn't feel like a rip off to me, but rather not perfectly executed
I like this interpretation.
That's exactly what I've been trying to say. And it makes sense that Sanji views his empathy as a weakness due to everything up until this point happening because of being extorted by his family, including his interactions with Luffy in their previous meeting. It doesn't help that he was criticized and abused so much by his family because he has compassion uncharacteristic of a royal in how he liked cooking food for others. And he thought that Luffy would judge him for that only to find out that Luffy's completely cool with who he is as a human being (which parallels how Sora and Reiju value Sanji's empathy). He just wanted Sanji to admit he needed help than recklessly sacrifice himself. Which was Sanji indirectly admitting he's expendable and him selfishly making the choice of the people he's trying to protect than even try to tell them about the situation before this chapter.
Basically, Sanji thinks his emotions are a weakness when the message here is that it's what makes Sanji a cool person. Which is what Luffy sees in him and is helping him realize.
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This post is deleted!
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@Buggy:
So bigmom planning a double cross…seems like she will get double crossed by bege n company probably after she reveals her double cross..might have some other parties involved too other than just bege's crew, probably some of the invitees for the tea party.
Invitees? Try high ranking members of Charlotte family.
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@Count:
That's exactly what I've been trying to say. And it makes sense that Sanji views his empathy as a weakness due to everything up until this point happening because of being extorted by his family, including his interactions with Luffy in their previous meeting. It doesn't help that he was criticized and abused so much by his family because he has compassion uncharacteristic of a royal in how he liked cooking food for others. And he thought that Luffy would judge him for that only to find out that Luffy's completely cool with who he is as a human being (which parallels how Sora and Reiju value Sanji's empathy). He just wanted Sanji to admit he needed help than recklessly sacrifice himself. Which was Sanji indirectly admitting he's expendable and him selfishly making the choice of the people he's trying to protect than even try to tell them about the situation before this chapter.
Basically, Sanji thinks his emotions are a weakness when the message here is that it's what makes Sanji a cool person. Which is what Luffy sees in him and is helping him realize.
exactly what i felt about the scene in a whole, just wished Oda wouldn't make that "i want to comeback to sunny" pannel… just because it leads to people misunderstanding the whole point of the scene, but it's all good...
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Probably done before but¯_(ツ)_/¯
you are correct:ninja:
@MDL:
Couldn't resist making this after Luffy's proposal:
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er… i don't really see Nami and Robin's vibes from the Sanji's scene, i mean, i didn't feel like Sanji was crying for help to luffy but rather than crying out of shame because of his own empathy, like he feels ashamed for not having what it takes to just let the family that abused him throughout his whole childhood die like that (even though is mostly because of his sister, but still...) so he cried, and his surprise is because luffy accepted sanji's nature naturally instead of thinking it was stupid... like Sanji himself does
i know a lot of people just see this scene as a sad rip off of Robin and Nami's scene, but i don't think that was what Oda planned... he just butchered the dialog and the pannels, like having sanji saying in a huge pannel "i want to comeback to Sunny go" was not needed, and obviously reminds people of the previous Mugiwara scenes unfortunately, but anyway... didn't feel like a rip off to me, but rather not perfectly executed
Yes!^…would've definitely helped not having that panel. could've had a serious discussion, Sanji saying "I don't know what to do Luffy" then he could've cried...but he just got punched so his emotions came out and was hard to hold them in.
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This chapter title is so misleading, I thought Ussop would show up.
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the shadows in the panel look like capone, pudding and lola's sister to me
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Another miracle!!
The infinite loop of crap about Sanji, Oda make it nonstop, it's disgrace after disgrace.
I like the chapter because of that, and for another example that Luffy seeks logic and truth mostly always. I thought that Bobbin would be stronger than Tamago, damn xd Well, anybody can fall after a surprise attack.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
the shadows in the panel look like capone, pudding and lola's sister to me
The shadows were obviously Teach, Shiliew and Aokiji, man… you need glasses.
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@Shobu:
I thought that Bobbin would be stronger than Tamago, damn xd Well, anybody can fall after a surprise attack.
You think a Bishop is mightier than a Knight?
Moves in L, bitches.
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Franky built a machine of destruction.
Three shadows, I think Capone could be one. I am not sure if we know the other characters. Bobbin should not have put his men to sleep. I don't think it would have mattered. Jimbe is cautioning on getting out. If the Vinsmokes are not part of this, what will their stand be when the mutiny happens. I hope we do not have a moment where the brothers go for Nami, and if they do, I hope she handles all three of them.
Not bad on Judge for keeping up, not sure if he would modify himself, from his fighting style I would guess not. His face must be funny, Oda keeps hidding the upper half.
Ahh, finally, even Luffy is teasing Sanji about their favorite foods. The tooth is never coming back. Punch was well deserved. Why is Sanji playing hard to get…damn poor King Baum not even in death does he get some rest.
Oh yeah, the plan is set, please take the cake and make demands! Maybe is time for Pekoms to just leave that crew, Big Mom's future is bleak, no matter how long that takes. They got to save Reiju, spank the Power Rangers if they get out of hand, spank Daddy and his walls, Let Big Mom just handle her mutiny, the focus is Kaido. Regardless it will be fun. Brooke lead in with the music.