An online mode of Smash Run would be super great (with possibly the "race" and "climbing" minigames being the only 2 fights at the end of it)
The Nintendo Thread
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Mini Rant here.
Just got to the end of Paper Mario Color Splash.
The end is fucking bullshit. This might count as a spoiler, I dunno but I'm spoilering it just in case.
! You know how you can block attacks if you press the button at the exact right time? Yeah, that's how you beat this boss. You have to do that. You have to block his attacks and steal the paint away. FOR THE LIFE OF ME I CAN'T FREAKING DO IT!!!!!!!! The timing CHANGES!! he has 4 different attacks and the freaking timing changes back and forth… UGH...
I've tried to beat this boss FIVE TIMES AND I CAN'T FREAKING DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Instead of they to go all Street Fighter to Smash, I prefer they to wait 3 years or so to actually deliver Smash 5.
Yeah me too. I just don't like Smash 4 very much and I would like a totally new game that's not so defense/turtling orientated. (It won't happen)
Also, will the Switch be more powerful than the Wii U? The fact that it's portable and the rumours it will be sold for $250 USD leads me to believe otherwise.
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Mini Rant here.
Just got to the end of Paper Mario Color Splash.
The end is fucking bullshit. This might count as a spoiler, I dunno but I'm spoilering it just in case.
! You know how you can block attacks if you press the button at the exact right time? Yeah, that's how you beat this boss. You have to do that. You have to block his attacks and steal the paint away. FOR THE LIFE OF ME I CAN'T FREAKING DO IT!!!!!!!! The timing CHANGES!! he has 4 different attacks and the freaking timing changes back and forth… UGH...
I've tried to beat this boss FIVE TIMES AND I CAN'T FREAKING DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
! Yeah, the final battle is pretty bullshit. I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but, me personally, it took me two times to beat him. If you're still determined to beat him, there's not much I can tell you other than have as many hard-hitting cards as you can, don't jump on him (unless it's with Iron Boots), and if you still can't get the timing down maybe watch some Youtube videos. Oh, and if you haven't gotten to it yet, be careful because he has one final huge attack.
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I almost started a thread but chicken'd out and came here. After cleaning my childhood bedroom, I uncovered my Gameboy Color. Inserted was a Pokemon Yellow cartridge, and naturally, I whacked it on. Upon reviewing my 8-yo deck, and the terrible nicknames (somewhere surrounding a mafia theme) and a blatant disregard for evolving, I sought to restart.
But we all know the game, you're destined to ascend from battle to battle. I all versions, you walk onto the scene like some infant Jesus, crushing gyms crime rings in your fiery wake; this is further exaggerated in Yellow, where you are literally Ash and have an opportunity to gain all starters (OMG I luv teh animeh). Those other trainers don't stand a chance.
Now, I've played a Nuzlocke game on Emerald on some emulator, and that was truly heartbreaking stuff. Nevertheless, after stocking the fuck up on potions (I'm not that HXC) and grinding ur squad (squad goals lvl 9000), you rarely find yourself in a pinch. I mean, I lost a lot of d00dz, but my starter and that makumaku guy lasted throughout. Interestingly, I found that I knew the pokedex better than the next game and black, though I'd only played each of these once. This is probably due to searching grasses deeply for replacements. Grew a strong love for toxic in that game.
At uni, meh buddehs were chatting about increasing difficulties on Pokemon (we're sick guys fam) and a lot was said over the haxness of Oak giving you a starter (this was a Kantocentric discussion). Effectively, this is the keystone in your march toward victory. To remedy this, we all downloaded firered and ditched our starters as soon as we'd caught our first pokemon. This increased to calling it a 'youngster game' where you'd purposefully choose pokemon you'd normally ignore, like swinging around with double raticates cause you dgaf, kinda thang. It made the game slightly harder, but we all know the map too well, so it was still a cakewalk.
Anyways, back to Yellow (this has a point). I wanted to add conditions to the game, but more than just youngster ethics. Obviously though I released Pika cause he's a whiny little cunt. Accordingly, I sought to carry maximum 3 pokemon (one big beast, and the other two to cover hms). I've just beaten the poison gym and rinsed the safari zone of HMs and have my final trio. They're not a sick team, but I've grown fond of them.
Weepinbell (gonna evolve soon)
Stun Spore
Wrap
Vine Whip
Body SlamKingler
Cut
Strength
Surf
GuillotineFearow
Toxic
Fly
Swift
Mirror Move-
- Now, I realize that Farfetch'd could do cut and fly, relieving a move for Kingler, but I thought of that long after krabby got cut. Also, kinda like Fearow being this trickster prince. I think now that Nidoking would've been a more solid strongman, but that Bellsprout has a tough moveset to beat (nicked it off a forum - you drop stun spore, then wrap until you've got their HP so low that any move'd kill 'em). Regardless, dya have any suggestions on possible move exchanges? Moreover, do any of yous apply different tactics to increase difficulty?
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WiiU ending production in Japan
http://www.siliconera.com/2016/11/10/nintendo-wii-u-production-ending-japan/ -
Poor Wii U… It feels like it's just too soon.
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I love my Wii U though… :(
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http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/11/14/nintendo-switch-price-may-have-been-accidentally-revealed
May or may not be an accidental price reveal for the Switch a Canadian Toys R' Us had it listed for $329.99 CAD (roughly £200 UK / $250 USD / $330 AUD)
That would be a great price if it's true
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Hey AP, I need some advice for buying the right system for Pokemon Sun/Moon. My last handhelds were the Game Boy Colour and the PSP. Now I want to join in the handheld fun again.
Question is, do I buy the 2DS (I can't fold it?), the 3DS (SaM is not 3D) or now that it seems the Switch has Poke-SaM too I just wait, because I'll buy the Switch anyway?
I also really want to play games like Advance Wars again, the last Animal Crossing and Harvest Moon. And yeah I have no idea which games are playable on which DS.
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Hey AP, I need some advice for buying the right system for Pokemon Sun/Moon. My last handhelds were the Game Boy Colour and the PSP. Now I want to join in the handheld fun again.
Question is, do I buy the 2DS (I can't fold it?), the 3DS (SaM is not 3D) or now that it seems the Switch has Poke-SaM too I just wait, because I'll buy the Switch anyway?
I also really want to play games like Advance Wars again, the last Animal Crossing and Harvest Moon. And yeah I have no idea which games are playable on which DS.
There will be a BF sale on the newest 3DS model for $100. The 2DS is $20 cheaper new, probably even cheaper used. Both can play just about every DS and 3DS game, though a few new digital games are N3DS only. All the games you mentioned, you won't miss much with just 2D.
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the 3DS (SaM is not 3D) or now that it seems the Switch has Poke-SaM too
Sun & Moon hasn't been confirmed for the Switch as far as I know.
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Sun & Moon hasn't been confirmed for the Switch as far as I know.
Yeah I just believed the rumour right away. Too good to be true.
Thank you Shift for the info, 3DS it is I think.
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Breath of the Wild may release on June 13.
http://m.ign.com/articles/2016/11/22/zelda-breath-of-the-wild-retailer-listing-indicates-june-launch
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The Earthbound Handbook has been available on Fangamer for some time now, in case anyone has missed it! It's like the Mother 3 handbook, but more Earthbound-y by looking more along the lines of the guidebook that originally came with the game, and also looking kind of like travel brochures for each unique location, and shows all the fun little secrets that are throughout the game.
In addition, Clyde Mandelin, the super awesome and humble translator who worked on the fan translation of Mother 3 for fun, finished his Legends of Localization book for Earthbound a while ago, and it's finally for sale on Fangamer, too.
They even did a video for it.
And just like they did with their last Localization book (based on Zelda), they have a fun little "passport" that helps people understand Japanese and grasp some basic concepts. Obviously, it isn't a full course on the language, but it's something that I'm super interested in because I just don't know anything about the language, but want to learn it!
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Been waiting for this to happen since I was a kid. Glad to see it's actually happening, though I imagine it will be several years before Orlando and Hollywood are ready as they'll probably focus on Japan first.
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Forgets password to Nintendo ID
Changes it online
Attempts to login with new password
Password is Invalid
Changes password again just to make sure nothing is wrong on own end
Password still invalid
Humors self by using temp. password from first change
Successfully logs in via temp. passwordChanges password back to what was used the first time because temp. password is default for no reason
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are they ever going to have partners again in a paper mario game, I loved all the characters in the first and second installments really wish we'd get some more
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are they ever going to have partners again in a paper mario game, I loved all the characters in the first and second installments really wish we'd get some more
In short, no. Intelligent Systems has confirmed that they have completely ditched the old partner-based gameplay formula. But they are open to making a remaster/remake of The Thousand Year Door though.
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@Count:
In short, no. Intelligent Systems has confirmed that they have completely ditched the old partner-based gameplay formula. But they are open to making a remaster/remake of The Thousand Year Door though.
Aww I love the partners, I hope they'll bring them back someday
good news about thousand year door though
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@Count:
In short, no. Intelligent Systems has confirmed that they have completely ditched the old partner-based gameplay formula. But they are open to making a remaster/remake of The Thousand Year Door though.
Then there is no reason to care for a new Paper Mario.
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Then there is no reason to care for a new Paper Mario.
Yes, most people got that memo years ago.
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Did they? Especially given how every time a new post Sticker Star game is annouced it leads to people bringing out the knives.
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Everytime? There's only been one post Sticker Star game….
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Everytime? There's only been one post Sticker Star game….
Was Paper Jam a Paper Mario game?
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Was Paper Jam a Paper Mario game?
More of a crossover than an out and about Paper Mario game.
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Did they? Especially given how every time a new post Sticker Star game is annouced it leads to people bringing out the knives.
That's exactly my point? People know Nintendo have fucked up the franchise. It's not going to stop people from WANTING a proper one, it just means there's no reason to give a shit about any steaming garbage Nintendo stamps with the Paper Mario name.
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Was Paper Jam a Paper Mario game?
It was pretty much a Mario & Luigi game with Paper Mario co-starring, similar to how the Baby Mario Bros and Bowser in previous installments. Although the blandness in terms of New Super Mario Bros-themed locales, lack of a compelling story besides humor, and over a third of the game being dedicated to collecting Toads certainly creeped in from recent streamlined Paper Mario entries to make it the most disappointing Mario & Luigi installment (although the battle system itself is the best it's ever been in and of itself).
But Foolio's right. Paper Mario's just a shadow of itself, although I respect those who like Color Splash. Paper Mario's downfall is seriously not anything newsworthy lol. And Nintendo's more likely to end it as a whole than listen to the complaints asking for the series to go back to the old formula.
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Color Splash is the second best Paper Mario
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@Count:
In short, no. Intelligent Systems has confirmed that they have completely ditched the old partner-based gameplay formula. But they are open to making a remaster/remake of The Thousand Year Door though.
well….silver linings?
looks at original copy on shelf
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Wasn't color splash decent at least? (haven't played it)
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Sure if by decent you mean good writing (at least in the localization) on top of bland, repetetive, tedious gameplay that doesn't involve partners or any semblance of RPG.
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I liked sticker star, but color splash just did not look interesting at all.
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So turns out that the NES Classic Controller I managed to buy from Walmart online two weeks ago just happened to be lost on the way to the store. What a surprise.
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Talking trash about Paper Mario already? :getlost:
In 2016 Nintendo doesn't listen to fans…...
Inb4, someone screencaps YouTube search videos of Paper Mario: Color Splash rant videos
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Everyone is complaining about Paper mMario and partners but every Paper Mario game has partners in it. Heck, Huey is the best partner character Paper Mario has ever had.
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Everyone is complaining about Paper mMario and partners but every Paper Mario game has partners in it. Heck, Huey is the best partner character Paper Mario has ever had.
I don't think you understand what the idea of partners in Paper Mario actually represents.
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I don't think you understand what the idea of partners in Paper Mario actually represents.
I think that Jex is joking.
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@Count:
I think that Jex is joking.
I'm not entirely sure that's the case.
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I don't think you understand what the idea of partners in Paper Mario actually represents.
I know what you meant and it was kind of a joke (although I do think Huey is far more enjoyable a character than any of the other partners, even if he doesn't fight). I just think its funny that people go on so much about how important the partner characters are to Paper Mario when they've been in less than 50% of the entire series (if you don't count the Pixls seeing as they are not partners in the way you mean).
I would argue the most important thing about Paper Mario is the paper mechanic and how it is used seeing as that is what makes Paper Mario different from most other Mario & Nintendo games.
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I don' think you understand what the idea of Paper Mario actually represents.
But hey, you agree with Miyamoto. Congratulations.
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I think the Pixls very much count as partners. It's no longer turn-based, but they are characters who join you and partner with you in battle using unique abilities and who have personality too.
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I know what you meant and it was kind of a joke (although I do think Huey is far more enjoyable a character than any of the other partners, even if he doesn't fight). I just think its funny that people go on so much about how important the partner characters are to Paper Mario when they've been in less than 50% of the entire series (if you don't count the Pixls seeing as they are not partners in the way you mean).
I would argue the most important thing about Paper Mario is the paper mechanic and how it is used seeing as that is what makes Paper Mario different from most other Mario & Nintendo games.
I knew that nobody could be serious about comparing Huey, Kersti, or Tippi to the partners in the first two games when there are obvious differences lol. Same goes for the Pixls depending on certain opinions like Foolio said, at least in terms of how they join you and perform specific functions in the overworld. If anything, Huey's more of a non-active sidekick. However, your argument about the complaints towards the importance of partner characters isn't determined solely by the amount of games they're in. I don't really see how you could make sense of such logic when people are arguing about the quality of Paper Mario, and many series exist for years and decades while making drastic changes from their predecessors. That doesn't mean the elements that were lost are completely expendable and "improve" the product just because they were removed, it's just the preference of the developers. Which fans have a right to either support or disagree with. It's important for qualitative reasons, they're not just complaining purely for the sake of it being a series convention.
And I HEAVILY disagree with your assertion that the paper mechanic is what made Paper Mario, well, Paper Mario. Even if you're more of a fan of the latest games, that is ignorant superficial judgment. Paper being in the name doesn't automatically mean that the earlier games completely focused around the concept of paper. In fact, the first game was originally Super Mario RPG 2 and only changed because the developers noticed that the art-style coincidentally looked as if everything was flat like paper, along with giving the RPG-esque story a bit of a storybook legend flair. And in Japan, the first game isn't even called Paper Mario, it's just Mario Story. Literally nothing in the first game even acknowledges the paper aesthetic in a literal or meta way besides one scene where Mario floats down like a piece of paper in Chapter 1. Paper Mario was founded upon making the world of Mario into that of an RPG when it came to plot focus, story progression, overworld exploration, turn-based gameplay, collectibles, and quests. A notable element of those being the party system mechanics. It was those elements that made Paper Mario distinct from the rest of the Mario series and other Nintendo franchises.
The Thousand Year Door is where the paper art-style starts to become a relevant theme, but even then it's just mainly restricted to paper folding transformations to traverse overworld obstacles as well as unique character designs (mainly when it comes to how giant characters look like paper crafts, such as Hooktail and Cortez). Everything else about that game is carried over from the first Paper Mario as the main focus. Thousand Year Door's balance on paper mechanics was the perfect balance for me because the paper aesthetic mainly stayed as just that, an aesthetic. And Super Paper Mario tried to awkwardly play more like a platformer and focused on the concept of dimensions (both geometrically and in terms of science fiction), not paper in and of itself at all to the point that you could argue that they treated the flat art-style as more akin to a generic 2D cartoon than specifically being made of paper.
The latter games trying to turn that into such a prevalent gimmick in both gameplay and story focus immensely turned me off, although I do give credit to how gorgeous the art-style in Color Splash looks with paper aesthetic taken to a whole other level of taking inspiration from various types of paper art.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not shaming you for liking the latter installments. And feel free to like the paper mechanic and how it's utilized more than ever in Sticker Star and Color Splash. But that alone is NOT what made the Paper Mario series distinct. You can only argue such a notion for the series as it is now in this decade, not what makes the series different as a whole from the point of its conception.
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By that logic then wouldn't Kersti and Huey count as partners then? They give Mario his abilities, allow him to interact with the environment in unique ways and Huey even does contribute physically in the final boss of Color Splash.
Well Noqanky why don't you tell me what the idea of Paper Mario actually represents. Why are partners so integral to the idea of Paper Mario that it stops being Paper Mario with their removal?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Count:
However, your argument about the complaints towards the importance of partner characters isn't determined solely by the amount of games they're in. I don't really see how you could make sense of such logic when people are arguing about the quality of Paper Mario, and many series exist for years and decades while making drastic changes from their predecessors. That doesn't mean the elements that were lost are completely expendable and "improve" the product just because they were removed, it's just the preference of the developers.
I didn't say they were completely expendable and it improved because they were removed. My comment was mainly aimed at the fact that a few posts before (and i have seen elsewhere) people saying that without partner characters it stops being Paper Mario and not worth their time. People are entitled to their own opinion which is fine but I just think it's odd that the concept of partners is so highly regarded that the story, aesthetics, gameplay, music and everything else can be totally rejected to some people simply because the game lacks a character who fights alongside Mario all the time.
Even if you're more of a fan of the latest games, that is ignorant superficial judgment.
The Thousand Year Door is the Best Paper Mario game hands-down. Then for me it goes Color Splash, Super, 64 and at the bottom Sticker Star.
Paper being in the name doesn't automatically mean that the earlier games completely focused around the concept of paper. In fact, the first game was originally Super Mario RPG 2 and only changed because the developers noticed that the art-style coincidentally looked as if everything was flat like paper, along with giving the RPG-esque story a bit of a storybook legend flair. And in Japan, the first game isn't even called Paper Mario, it's just Mario Story. Literally nothing in the first game even acknowledges the paper aesthetic in a literal or meta way besides one scene where Mario floats down like a piece of paper in Chapter 1. Paper Mario was founded upon making the world of Mario into that of an RPG when it came to plot focus, story progression, overworld exploration, turn-based gameplay, collectibles, and quests. A notable element of those being the party system mechanics. It was those elements that made Paper Mario distinct from the rest of the Mario series and other Nintendo franchises.
So, what a game represents and what is a big focus for a series can change after the first game. For example the Dynasty Warriors series. The first game in that series was a fighting game like Tekken or Soul Calibur. But from the second one onwards it became the over-the top Hack n' Slash game that the series is known for. And no one tries to argue that the series is about 1-on-1 combat just because the first game was. Things can change and Paper Mario is obvious to that. You are right when you say that in the first game the paper aspect of it is pretty much non-existent. It was started as Super Mario RPG 2 and contains many elements of that series. But, from the Thousand Year Door onwards they began introducing and playing up the Paper aspect in a major way. Because it is the paper aspect that makes Mario and Paper Mario different characters altogether. In TTYD Paper Mario can turn into a paper airplane, roll himself up and stand sideways to squeeze through small gaps. I believe elements of this are also used in the combat as well. Super Paper Mario uses the paper aspect in some of its gameplay as well with turning sideways, rolling up and the whole 3D/2D thing (although I also see your point that this doesn't necessarily need to be because it is paper). And Sticker Star/Color Splash go full throttle with it. Even Paper Jam places the heaviest emphasis on the Paper aspect of the Paper Mario series because that is what the focus is nowadays. That doesn't make previous parts of the series bad just because the focus has shifted. The partner aspect was a major part of the Super Mario RPG series and while the Paper Mario franchise was still considered a part of that series then so was the partners. TTYD was a transition game in a way. From when Paper Mario tried to find his own identity. That is why after that the focus of the series shifted away to focus on what made the Paper Mario series so different which is the various ways it plays with its Paper motif first and foremost.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not shaming you for liking the latter installments. And feel free to like the paper mechanic and how it's utilized more than ever in Sticker Star and Color Splash. But that alone is NOT what made the Paper Mario series distinct. You can only argue such a notion for the series as it is now in this decade, not what makes the series different as a whole from the point of its conception.
And don't get me wrong. Everyone can have their own opinion on this. No one is objectively wrong unless they are saying that the series itself doesn't deserve any attention. The Thousand Year Door is my favourite game in the series and I love the partner mechanic. I wish Color Splash kept it. But I don't think its removal instantly drops the quality of the game by a hundred like a lot of other people seem to think and that's because the game has other merits besides the partners. I do think it is the Paper Mechanic that makes the series unique. It has other great concepts don't get me wrong, but TTYD and before felt like extensions of another game, being the Super Mario RPG one, and not something completely unique. Which may have been the point back-then but the focus has clearly changed now. And, not to intentionally push people's buttons but I have to mention this, the Mario & Luigi series does do a lot of what Paper Mario does outside of the Paper. It is a turn-based RPG with unique enemies, environments, mario never talks but is fully characterized by his actions, has a mechanic about pressing the button just before an attack hits (which is taken from Super Mario RPG again) and has a well-written script. The only differences between the two is the aesthetics (being the Paper and lack-there of), the number of partners (which M&L has being first luigi, then the babies, then bowser indirectly and recently Paper Mario himself) and that is about it. There was a reason people called the Paper Mario series the console Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi the handheld Mario RPG. The biggest thing that made Paper Mario unique was the Paper motif which is why when Paper Mario went to the handheld they focused on that more so it wouldn't clash with M&L. Because that is the focus of the series and what makes it stand-out.
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By that logic then wouldn't Kersti and Huey count as partners then? They give Mario his abilities, allow him to interact with the environment in unique ways and Huey even does contribute physically in the final boss of Color Splash.
Well Noqanky why don't you tell me what the idea of Paper Mario actually represents. Why are partners so integral to the idea of Paper Mario that it stops being Paper Mario with their removal?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I didn't say they were completely expendable and it improved because they were removed. My comment was mainly aimed at the fact that a few posts before (and i have seen elsewhere) people saying that without partner characters it stops being Paper Mario and not worth their time. People are entitled to their own opinion which is fine but I just think it's odd that the concept of partners is so highly regarded that the story, aesthetics, gameplay, music and everything else can be totally rejected to some people simply because the game lacks a character who fights alongside Mario all the time.
The Thousand Year Door is the Best Paper Mario game hands-down. Then for me it goes Color Splash, Super, 64 and at the bottom Sticker Star.
So, what a game represents and what is a big focus for a series can change after the first game. For example the Dynasty Warriors series. The first game in that series was a fighting game like Tekken or Soul Calibur. But from the second one onwards it became the over-the top Hack n' Slash game that the series is known for. And no one tries to argue that the series is about 1-on-1 combat just because the first game was. Things can change and Paper Mario is obvious to that. You are right when you say that in the first game the paper aspect of it is pretty much non-existent. It was started as Super Mario RPG 2 and contains many elements of that series. But, from the Thousand Year Door onwards they began introducing and playing up the Paper aspect in a major way. Because it is the paper aspect that makes Mario and Paper Mario different characters altogether. In TTYD Paper Mario can turn into a paper airplane, roll himself up and stand sideways to squeeze through small gaps. I believe elements of this are also used in the combat as well. Super Paper Mario uses the paper aspect in some of its gameplay as well with turning sideways, rolling up and the whole 3D/2D thing (although I also see your point that this doesn't necessarily need to be because it is paper). And Sticker Star/Color Splash go full throttle with it. Even Paper Jam places the heaviest emphasis on the Paper aspect of the Paper Mario series because that is what the focus is nowadays. That doesn't make previous parts of the series bad just because the focus has shifted. The partner aspect was a major part of the Super Mario RPG series and while the Paper Mario franchise was still considered a part of that series then so was the partners. TTYD was a transition game in a way. From when Paper Mario tried to find his own identity. That is why after that the focus of the series shifted away to focus on what made the Paper Mario series so different which is the various ways it plays with its Paper motif first and foremost.
And don't get me wrong. Everyone can have their own opinion on this. No one is objectively wrong unless they are saying that the series itself doesn't deserve any attention. The Thousand Year Door is my favourite game in the series and I love the partner mechanic. I wish Color Splash kept it. But I don't think its removal instantly drops the quality of the game by a hundred like a lot of other people seem to think and that's because the game has other merits besides the partners. I do think it is the Paper Mechanic that makes the series unique. It has other great concepts don't get me wrong, but TTYD and before felt like extensions of another game, being the Super Mario RPG one, and not something completely unique. Which may have been the point back-then but the focus has clearly changed now. And, not to intentionally push people's buttons but I have to mention this, the Mario & Luigi series does do a lot of what Paper Mario does outside of the Paper. It is a turn-based RPG with unique enemies, environments, mario never talks but is fully characterized by his actions, has a mechanic about pressing the button just before an attack hits (which is taken from Super Mario RPG again) and has a well-written script. The only differences between the two is the aesthetics (being the Paper and lack-there of), the number of partners (which M&L has being first luigi, then the babies, then bowser indirectly and recently Paper Mario himself) and that is about it. There was a reason people called the Paper Mario series the console Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi the handheld Mario RPG. The biggest thing that made Paper Mario unique was the Paper motif which is why when Paper Mario went to the handheld they focused on that more so it wouldn't clash with M&L. Because that is the focus of the series and what makes it stand-out.
That's a lot of text that I can respond to easily.
To what you asked me, Count Mario elaborated perfectly. I'd also add that diverse partners in different worlds helped develop the world significantly in TTYD and some in PM64, something that doesn't happen anymore since you just get a Navi like partner early on to push the early plot forward before, well, plot dies to the generic same-old.
To what you say, it is true that it is a matter of opinion what you like or not. But if you establish a franchise, it is your responsibility as a designer to be loyal to that brand and know what it represents, and to understand that if people get upset when that brand is used to sell something that isn't loyal to the quality and expectations of the audience. Which is the case here, they're just using the paper mario brand to push out more Mario games to an audience that buys anything Mario.
Also, you jumped in saying stuff that was inherently wrong, factually, such as partners in the latter half of paper mario games being the same as in the first two. Which is not an opinion, it's something just literally not true. So no, it's not an issue of you having a belief and not agreeing with how the world treats Paper Mario now… it's that you literally said something highly inaccurate and people are explaining to you why that is not the case.
edit: skimming more over your post there's a lot of other things wrong, like the only difference with M&L being the paper aesthetic. Have you replayed these games recently? I'd suggest doing so.
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I'll spoiler my response to not clog up the thread.
! @black-leg:
! > > I didn't say they were completely expendable and it improved because they were removed. My comment was mainly aimed at the fact that a few posts before (and i have seen elsewhere) people saying that without partner characters it stops being Paper Mario and not worth their time. People are entitled to their own opinion which is fine but I just think it's odd that the concept of partners is so highly regarded that the story, aesthetics, gameplay, music and everything else can be totally rejected to some people simply because the game lacks a character who fights alongside Mario all the time.Understandable. But when people bring up their concerns in the form of the partner system being absent, they're probably throwing that in with the intricate story and non-item-based turn-based gameplay of the first two/three games. It kind of goes without saying that people expect them to go hand in hand, and it makes sense for a partner system in a trailer of a new Paper Mario game to indicate "hey, maybe they're going back to making Paper Mario be like a traditional RPG in several aspects!". The party system is a major point but not the whole thing, yes. And there are people who are only talking about the party system alone. But I argue that more often then not, when people complain about how there are no partners as to why they won't play new games, it's a short way of saying that they don't play the new games because they don't have as many traditional RPG elements, and the most obvious superficial distinction between the old and new games at first glance is whether partners are present. Tons of people not only criticize the lack of partners, but the use of NPCs in the form of mostly Toads and familiar main series Mario enemies with generic repetitive designs, the locales not being unique enough and instead being themed after generic environments you see all the time in New Super Mario Bros, the lack of unique and compelling stories beyond just rescuing Peach and collecting seven items (which was in the first two games, obviously, but the stories had a lot more detail, casts, and lore than JUST that), Bowser being a boring antagonist and much better as a supporting character like in Thousand Year Door, Super Paper Mario, and the Mario & Luigi games, etc. Partners contribute to the unique and classic experience of all these elements in the first Paper Mario games both in and out of gameplay, like Noqanky noted about how they developed the world. So it makes sense that a succinct way of noting what fans of the old games and old games only might find wrong with Paper Mario nowadays is the lack of partners in how they connect to various major traditional RPG components.
If you're criticizing me for not interpreting your comment's logic and points correctly, then I would advise the same for how you critique those in this thread who have remarked on the partner system. Because like Foolio said, the most recent games lack partners AND any semblance of an RPG. Hence why it's understandable that people assume they go hand in hand when critiquing the lack of partners. Regardless, yeah, you can totally prefer the older games just because they have partners alone lol.
The Thousand Year Door is the Best Paper Mario game hands-down. Then for me it goes Color Splash, Super, 64 and at the bottom Sticker Star.
Cool lol. Mine goes Thousand Year Door>64>Super>Sticker Star. I haven't played Color Splash (I will only get it used around maybe Christmas because I do not want to financially support the current direction of the franchise), but I'm confident that the refined gameplay and humorous writing praises I've heard from others will make me like it more than Sticker Star (which I can't make myself finish for the life of me. I have absolutely no incentive to to play it lol). And I was always a fan of Super Paper Mario as its own game despite its controversial and awkward changes.
So, what a game represents and what is a big focus for a series can change after the first game. For example the Dynasty Warriors series. The first game in that series was a fighting game like Tekken or Soul Calibur. But from the second one onwards it became the over-the top Hack n' Slash game that the series is known for. And no one tries to argue that the series is about 1-on-1 combat just because the first game was. Things can change and Paper Mario is obvious to that. You are right when you say that in the first game the paper aspect of it is pretty much non-existent. It was started as Super Mario RPG 2 and contains many elements of that series. But, from the Thousand Year Door onwards they began introducing and playing up the Paper aspect in a major way. Because it is the paper aspect that makes Mario and Paper Mario different characters altogether. In TTYD Paper Mario can turn into a paper airplane, roll himself up and stand sideways to squeeze through small gaps. I believe elements of this are also used in the combat as well. Super Paper Mario uses the paper aspect in some of its gameplay as well with turning sideways, rolling up and the whole 3D/2D thing (although I also see your point that this doesn't necessarily need to be because it is paper). And Sticker Star/Color Splash go full throttle with it. Even Paper Jam places the heaviest emphasis on the Paper aspect of the Paper Mario series because that is what the focus is nowadays. That doesn't make previous parts of the series bad just because the focus has shifted. The partner aspect was a major part of the Super Mario RPG series and while the Paper Mario franchise was still considered a part of that series then so was the partners. TTYD was a transition game in a way. From when Paper Mario tried to find his own identity. That is why after that the focus of the series shifted away to focus on what made the Paper Mario series so different which is the various ways it plays with its Paper motif first and foremost.
Actually, I've played The Thousand Year Door several times and I know that the paper folding transformations do not play a role in battle. They're only used for overworld obstacles. You might be thinking about the different types of hammers and boots that come with their own abilities, along with the special moves you get from each Crystal Star.
I believe you're arguing here that it's the focus on the paper mechanics in Sticker Star and Color Splash that give Paper Mario a unique identity compared to its traditional RPG elements directly inspired by Super Mario RPG. I see where you're going with that and I get it, and I know you aren't criticizing the previous games as being bad, but that doesn't mean that going for any unconventional gameplay method that helps you stand out has to be appreciated. There's nothing wrong with following conventions because series can always put unique definitive twists on them. Yes, what a franchise represents can change over time, but that doesn't mean it's always for a beneficial change that people should praise. Change can be controversial, as we all know. And change can be good or bad, especially from a subjective perspective (although you can still argue objectively rational reasoning behind having such opinions).
It's not the Paper aspect that makes the characters different from the main Mario series. It's the RPG elements allowing for expanded personalities, abilities, unique designs, and completely new races/major characters that are what makes them different because the main games don't care about even trying to have proficient writing or characterization. They only focus on efficient platforming gameplay, which is completely fine (not that I would mind more of a lighthearted humorous, story focus like Mario & Luigi and the PS2 Ratchet & Clank installments for main series Mario platformers…) and a tried and true formula. But that doesn't mean the other series have to adhere to that basis like Miyamoto's irrational desire to streamline every series in the Mario franchise rather than have each of them take unique advantage of the video game genre qualities they encompass respectively.
And you want know how I'm absolutely certain about Paper Mario's original praised RPG elements giving profound series distinctions in characterization? Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, ironically enough. Because despite the constantly advertising for the game in how the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi casts finally meet as a compelling element, the allure is lost after the first couple of minutes when you realize that because Paper Mario isn't allowed to bring in its unique array of characters seen in the RPG-styled games before Sticker Star, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER HAS THE EXACT SAME PERSONALITY AS THEIR COUNTERPART. Both Marios don't talk, although they do express gestures in different ways and at least M&L Mario can babble. Both Bowsers are ignorant jerks. Both Peaches are dignified and dainty. Both Bowser Jrs are bratty pranksters. Both Kameks are trolling babysitters. ALL OF THE TOADS AND PAPER TOADS ARE THE COMPLETE SAME BESIDES TOADETTE, who Nintendo wants to make the Smurfette of the Toads for some reason instead of having various female Toad designs in previous Mario RPGs.
The only main cast characters that actually have different personalities and story roles are Luigi and Paper Luigi, with the former being an extremely cowardly and awkward main character that can't speak like Mario while the latter is always left behind and tries to put up false bravado in making up valiant stories for his misadventures. And you know what happened? They couldn't even meet because Paper Luigi is only seen in the soundtrack listening menu. This is the type of bland lack of identity found when when the paper components are enhanced as mechanics made to replace all of the appreciated RPG elements from a series like Paper Mario.
And don't get me wrong. Everyone can have their own opinion on this. No one is objectively wrong unless they are saying that the series itself doesn't deserve any attention. The Thousand Year Door is my favourite game in the series and I love the partner mechanic. I wish Color Splash kept it. But I don't think its removal instantly drops the quality of the game by a hundred like a lot of other people seem to think and that's because the game has other merits besides the partners. I do think it is the Paper Mechanic that makes the series unique. It has other great concepts don't get me wrong, but TTYD and before felt like extensions of another game, being the Super Mario RPG one, and not something completely unique. Which may have been the point back-then but the focus has clearly changed now. And, not to intentionally push people's buttons but I have to mention this, the Mario & Luigi series does do a lot of what Paper Mario does outside of the Paper. It is a turn-based RPG with unique enemies, environments, mario never talks but is fully characterized by his actions, has a mechanic about pressing the button just before an attack hits (which is taken from Super Mario RPG again) and has a well-written script. The only differences between the two is the aesthetics (being the Paper and lack-there of), the number of partners (which M&L has being first luigi, then the babies, then bowser indirectly and recently Paper Mario himself) and that is about it. There was a reason people called the Paper Mario series the console Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi the handheld Mario RPG. The biggest thing that made Paper Mario unique was the Paper motif which is why when Paper Mario went to the handheld they focused on that more so it wouldn't clash with M&L. Because that is the focus of the series and what makes it stand-out.
It's not even the lack of a partner system alone that bothers me. Sure, I miss it a lot. But I still enjoyed Super Paper Mario for what it was on its own as an awkwardly balanced 2D platformer with RPG elements. So my disinterest lies with the specific gameplay system used for Sticker Star and Color Splash, to the point that I would actually prefer a completely different gameplay style for the series again if there's a chance I can find it more enjoyable and fulfilling than the current state of the series. I respect that you like Intelligent Systems going for a completely unique style for gameplay and story in Color Splash, but that doesn't mean the old gameplay system was too repetitive and that it had to completely change for the sake of completely changing. Great series can maintain a consistent gameplay core while finding the creativity to improve on and experiment with certain aspects to make each installment unique in their own right. This is literally the formula that's applied to the main series of platformers. That is the potential Paper Mario had before Intelligent Systems had an identity crisis with Super Paper Mario and decided to hand the reigns to Miyamoto's unquestionable judgment when he probably didn't even fully play the first two games to understand why they were successful.
I'm willing to bet that after playing the Sticker Star demo that still had the partner system, he noticed the emphasis on story (which he absolutely hates because he had a fit over Rosalina having a backstory in the first Super Mario Galaxy) and the unique character designs for familiar and new Mario races, and automatically dictated that change is bad. Another factor might have been that poll given in Japan that asked if players liked the story in Super Paper Mario that got a resoundingly negative response, which I doubt was directed at an ideal demographic and should have properly included western audiences who would have most likely praised it. You're trying to argue that the new Paper Mario games are trying to be distinguishably unique when, if anything, it just became more generically streamlined with the bland conventions of the main series (mainly New Super Mario Bros). I say that it just uses the pretty paper mechanics to cover up how generic the series has actually become under the seams.
But that's just how I interpret the series. While there are traditional RPGs all over the place, it did a much better job of giving unique identity to Paper Mario compared to the rest of the Mario franchise than what the paper aesthetic alone offers.
And like Noqanky said, there is just so much wrong with claiming that Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi are the exact same. Similar? Totally. In the same way that Super Mario Bros, Kirby's Dream Land, and Donkey Kong Country are all platformers with obvious distinctions. They're really only similar in having a partner in battle (which is completely different in terms of functions between both series), basic jump and hammer attacks, and badges. But having little fundamental differences? That's just… Wow. I would type up a whole reply just about that if it wasn't for my lack of sleep lol. There was nothing wrong with people considering Paper Mario to be the "console Mario RPG" anyways because what's wrong with having more Mario RPGs lol? You keep pushing the uniqueness factor as a merit in and of itself with the paper mechanics when that is not an objectively qualitative attribute. At all. You can't defend a series by just saying that "it's different!" as if those differences are either automatically better or on a pedestal that can't be critiqued. At least point out how the paper mechanics themselves function more appealingly than the partner system, and then your argument can have a legitimate basis.
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Also, you jumped in saying stuff that was inherently wrong, factually, such as partners in the latter half of paper mario games being the same as in the first two. Which is not an opinion, it's something just literally not true. So no, it's not an issue of you having a belief and not agreeing with how the world treats Paper Mario now… it's that you literally said something highly inaccurate and people are explaining to you why that is not the case.
Did you read my original reply to you? I literally said that is was a joke. In the absolute literal sense they are partners because Huey and Kersti team up with Mario for his adventure just like Goombario or Kooper. But they are not partners in exactly the same way because the former two only influence the battle indirectly, they don't actually take part like the ones from the former games. I was being pedantic for a joke and said to you afterwards that it was a joke.
edit: skimming more over your post there's a lot of other things wrong, like the only difference with M&L being the paper aesthetic. Have you replayed these games recently? I'd suggest doing so.
Yes I have. Now I think you are the one being pedantic about this. Yes they are different in more ways than just the paper aesthetic on the most surface level because they have a different partner system, a different overworld, story, etc. But the actual core of the series was very much the same. A turn-based RPG starring Mario. He has a partner who fights alongside him, Bowser & Peach are involved in some way with the former being an enemy while the latter gets kidnapped. They travel across either the Mushroom Kingdom (Paper Mario & Partners in Time) or a new kingdom (The Thousand Year Door & Superstar Saga). There are new villains and new allies introduced. Mario gets some new abilities, some that help him outside of battle and some that are specifically used in battle. Mario's main attack in both games is either jumping on the enemy or using his hammer both of which are utilized in 99% the same way in both series. Pressing A right as you hit an enemy does more damage and pressing A right as you get hit reduces damage. Mario doesn't speak in either of them but is full of character, characters break the fourth wall in dialogue, there are side-quests, items and a leveling up system.
These are all large parts of both series that are identical. On the outer-layer yes they are obviously different games but they come from the same starting point and share way more similarities than differences. The biggest thing separating them back then was the platform they were on and that was it. Paper Mario jumping to the handheld wanted to change things up to avoid being too similar and ultimately it didn't work. But the team clearly felt that they needed to make the Paper Mario series more unique which is why this change originally happened on the Wii and not 3DS. With the Switch now combining both platforms I doubt they will ever go back to the old way as long as Mario & Luigi sticks around (and imo they don't need to. If they can just fix the battle system of Color Splash so it is worth something and then add some more unique characters we could easily get a game better than TTYD).
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Here is my view of the 5 games.
Paper Mario.
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Chapter 1: Mario battles against the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with the help of a Prison Break of Bob-Ombs.
Chapter 2: Raiders of the Lost Ark without the Nazis. He also have the aid of a stowaway mailman.
Chapter 3: Mario must join forces with the member of the high society of Boos to save wild west ghosts from a ghost eater. A sentient heart is involved.
Chapter 4: Nazi Shy Guys in a Magical Toy Land. There is an electric baby.
Chapter 5: Mario and a Fish rescues baby Yoshis in a tropical jungle. Mario fights a fire-breathing flytrap like plant in a volcano.
Chapter 6: Mario must give back the almighty sun to the magical land of flowers and befriends Fonzie Lakitu after trading manly blows with one another. All ends by fighting a living cloud in heavens.
Chapter 7: Mario must clear his name, by solving a "murder" crime. There is an epic mountain climbing to the best dungeon of the entire game towards the fight of Ghost Frosty King.
Chapter 8: Star Child Character Growth.
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Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year-Door.
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Chapter 1: There is a frigging Dragon to deal with it. Undead Skeletons Koopas involved it. Basically the first Dark Souls.
Chapter 2: Mario and the secret society of worms must protect the sacred tree.
Chapter 3: Are you ready for this Sunday Night where The Great Gonzaleswill take on Rawk Hawk in a battle for the World Heavy-Weight Champion in Gliiitz Piiiit!!! You have a baby Yoshi partner and a conspirancy involving missing persons is involved.
Chapter 4: Dolls are being turned into pigs by a doppelgengar. Same doppelgengar trades places with Mario and he must join forces with his old shadow fire magician enemy to take back his body.
Chapter 5: Pirates of Caribbean with a better version of Bombette that happpens to be a sea veteran.
Chapter 6: There is a Train Heist Mystery involving a bomb followed by a train hijack of a sentient dark slime.
Chapter 7: They blast Mario to the moon with a cannon to storm an alien stronghold. That is all.
Chapter 8: Mario adventures through a Demon Stringhold and fights his girlfriend possesed by an ancient demon queen.
[/hide]
Super Paper Mario.
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Chapter 1: Mario goes through a grass hills to a desert and ends fighting a guardian dragon.
Chapter 2: Mario ends up forced to manual labour by a shapeshifter spider maid on a fortuneteller's mansion.
Chapter 3: Mario have to save his butterfly tutorial from a fat chameleon nerd and joins forces with Bowser.
Chapter 4: Super Mario Galaxy!
Chapter 5: Mario aid the Flintstones against evolved plants. Turns out the cavemen were wrong all along and they are forced to redeem their evil ways. All they needed was to the Plant Prince to die.
Chapter 6: Mario faces a 100 Men Gauntlet only to the world to be destroyed and must fight his brainwashed brother in the end. On a robot.
Chapter 7: Mario dies and must venture throught the land of Game Over to the Land of End Credits. Basically Dante's Inferno.
Chapter 8: Mario must save all dimensions from an Evil Count because they took away his human girlfriend that happens to be the butterfly that hangs around with Mario. Ancient Prophecies involved it.
[/hide]
Paper Mario: Sticker Star.
[hide]
Chapter 1: The one with the Awesome Goomba Fight.
Chapter 2: The one with the Baseball Desert.
Chapter 3: The one with the annoying cartepillar and the poisonous octopus.
Chapter 4: The one with the ice level.
Chapter 5: The one with Petey.
Chapter 6: The one with Bowser. There is a cool Super Mario RPG reference though.
All in an overworld map.
[/hide]
Paper Mario: Colour Splash.
[hide]
Chapter 1: The one with Morton.
Chapter 2: The one with Iggy.
Chapter 3: The one with Ludwig.
Chapter 4: The one with Wendy.
Chapter 5: The one with Pinhead Larry.
Chapter 6: The one with Lemmy.
Chapter 7: Endgame. Roy is in there.
[/hide]
My point: Post Super Paper Mario have less story than the rest. -
Did you read my original reply to you? I literally said that is was a joke. In the absolute literal sense they are partners because Huey and Kersti team up with Mario for his adventure just like Goombario or Kooper. But they are not partners in exactly the same way because the former two only influence the battle indirectly, they don't actually take part like the ones from the former games. I was being pedantic for a joke and said to you afterwards that it was a joke.
Yes I have. Now I think you are the one being pedantic about this. Yes they are different in more ways than just the paper aesthetic on the most surface level because they have a different partner system, a different overworld, story, etc. But the actual core of the series was very much the same. A turn-based RPG starring Mario. He has a partner who fights alongside him, Bowser & Peach are involved in some way with the former being an enemy while the latter gets kidnapped. They travel across either the Mushroom Kingdom (Paper Mario & Partners in Time) or a new kingdom (The Thousand Year Door & Superstar Saga). There are new villains and new allies introduced. Mario gets some new abilities, some that help him outside of battle and some that are specifically used in battle. Mario's main attack in both games is either jumping on the enemy or using his hammer both of which are utilized in 99% the same way in both series. Pressing A right as you hit an enemy does more damage and pressing A right as you get hit reduces damage. Mario doesn't speak in either of them but is full of character, characters break the fourth wall in dialogue, there are side-quests, items and a leveling up system.
These are all large parts of both series that are identical. On the outer-layer yes they are obviously different games but they come from the same starting point and share way more similarities than differences. The biggest thing separating them back then was the platform they were on and that was it. Paper Mario jumping to the handheld wanted to change things up to avoid being too similar and ultimately it didn't work. But the team clearly felt that they needed to make the Paper Mario series more unique which is why this change originally happened on the Wii and not 3DS. With the Switch now combining both platforms I doubt they will ever go back to the old way as long as Mario & Luigi sticks around (and imo they don't need to. If they can just fix the battle system of Color Splash so it is worth something and then add some more unique characters we could easily get a game better than TTYD).
Yes, I read your original RESPONSE to what I said, but there was nothing in the first post that I responded to that implied it being a joke. So what it amounts to is essentially you baiting other people and when called out going "oh, it was a joke…. but still"
What I said originally remains. You jumped in saying something factually wrong. Whether you later on backtracked saying "joke!" doesn't detract from the action having jump-started this conversation having had nothing to do with opinion, rather factually inaccurate baiting.
Also, I don't see why suddenly you're assuming me to be pedantic and then you agree with what I'm saying. How is it pedantic to explain that you are inaccurate, and then ask if you have played the games recently? You already demonstrated that you agree with me about being inaccurate, and Count Mario himself elaborated. But I'm the pedantic one. How? If it's regarding the skimming I mention that I skimmed it because it's a very sizable post that is jumping into topics that have nothing to do with the original point you brought up, which is what brought me into this conversation in the first place.
If the "pedantic" comes from asking if you have played the games recently, I think it's a valuable question since memory will color our perception and highlight what we want to remember instead of the way things were. It's valuable to replay games we liked long ago, shows new things and new appreciation.Regarding the differences I mentioned, one of the issues is that you are comparing the games in terms of plot and narrative whereas they should be compared in terms of mechanics. In which case the core IS the same, involving RPG adventures with action commands defining combat and interaction with the world being extensive and involving collection and traveling. However, Paper Mario is defined by the partner mechanic in that it affects how the player traverses the world and obtains items as well as the sorts of things you can achieve in combat. Puzzle-solving and world-building involves these partners, sometimes more often than others, while the growth of mario is limited to a couple weapon upgrades and everything else is only combat based.
Mario and Luigi approaches progress through growth and evolution of the mario and luigi partnership over time, and combat also emphasizes control of each brother independently at all times, allowing for combo moves, evasion, defense strategy, items, etc.
I would agree both share the similarity of elements like badges being used to customize the user set-up.It wasn't until TTYD that Paper Mario became more combat based and even then the focus was on partners and then the added mechanic of audience elements. So the core of Paper Mario shifted more towards being a tale, a story, an adventure in a specific world with characters and events. Mario and Luigi, even with unique stories and events, revolves in concept and mechanics around the interactions between the brothers, whether it's just them, or with their baby counterparts, or within bowser, or with multiple luigis, or with paper mario. To say they are nearly identical reflects a very shallow view of the games.
As for the change, it has been documented already that the core shift in approach with Paper Mario involved Miyamoto saying the 3DS version in development was boring, and leading to greater emphasis in the sticker mechanic and it making it more of a mario game. Hence focus on mario-centered enemies, concepts like levels, and a simplistic storyline that interferes as little as possible with the function.
The team has indeed referred to Mario and Luigi as an excuse of why Paper Mario isn't used as an RPG, but that shows a lack of understanding of what Paper Mario was since Mario and Luigi lacks the big, defining element of partners and it doesn't approach story, world-building or combat in the same ways. It'd be like changing pokemon and saying "oh, if you want a pokemon experience just play dragon quest"Regarding your last assessment, a lot more needs to be done to ensure a better-than-TTYD experience, since the core problem is that color splash was approached as an action adventure game with an RPG mechanic based on collection, instead of an adventure RPG with focus on character growth and world-building.
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I'll spoiler tag as well so as to not clog this up but I am enjoying this civil debate.
! @Count:
! > But I argue that more often then not, when people complain about how there are no partners as to why they won't play new games, it's a short way of saying that they don't play the new games because they don't have as many traditional RPG elements, and the most obvious superficial distinction between the old and new games at first glance is whether partners are present.
! The issue here is it is your hope that they are saying that. I hope it is that as well. Without real clarification from them though we won't know. Foolio stated both and that's good because it is clear but not everyone does that and it becomes hard to tell if it was all the changes or just the partner system (which is what i am arguing is not needed in a Paper Mario game)
! > Tons of people not only criticize the lack of partners, but the use of NPCs in the form of mostly Toads and familiar main series Mario enemies with generic repetitive designs,
! And I agree with this. We know Miyamoto is to blame for it in Sticker Star. Whether he had a hand with it in Color Splash or whether they were trying to save on dev time (it is the firs HD game IS has made) we just don't know. But this is one aspect that does need to be improved.
! > the locales not being unique enough and instead being themed after generic environments you see all the time in New Super Mario Bros, the lack of unique and compelling stories beyond just rescuing Peach and collecting seven items (which was in the first two games, obviously, but the stories had a lot more detail, casts, and lore than JUST that), Bowser being a boring antagonist and much better as a supporting character like in Thousand Year Door, Super Paper Mario, and the Mario & Luigi games, etc.
! Ok so I think it is this part of the argument where you not having played Color Splash will be a big issue as it fixes a lot of these issues. At its core the story in the first Paper Mario and the story in Color Splash are exactly the same. Bowser gets a new power, kidnaps Peach and takes her to a flying castle so Mario has to go around and collect a number of super stars to save the day. And I know the thought of color splash being good, if not better than the first game, will really aggrivate some (not all) people in this thread but it is true. If we are talking about locale, the first Paper Mario game did stick pretty safely to the SMB formula. It had a plains, desert, haunted woods, ice world, lava world, jugnle, ruins, star world, bowser world. It had a few unique ones like the Toy Box and the train (which seems to be in most of the Paper Mario games) but that is it. Color Splash has far more unique zones than just the typical NSMB style that Paper Mario and Sticker Star stuck to. It has some safe picks like a Plainsm underground, desert and lava world but it also has a coliseum, train, haunted hotel, MGS style military bunker, a pirate world (with kickass music), a circus, an archaeological dig site and more! Even the story is better in color splash. Peach isn't kidnapped straight away. There is a whole mystery about draining color and a mystery about Bowser that slowly gets revealed as the story goes on. Some people say the world isn;t fleshed out but i disagree. The level by level format allows each area to have it's own sub-story to help flesh out characters and the world. Finding a legendary treasure, looking for someones missing dog, fixing a broken train, taking part in a beach party. These are all small stroylines that Mario comes across that makes the island feel more alive. All it needed was unique NPC designs to make it perfect. Bowser is not boring in this one either. He isn;t as interesting as the first 3 for most of the game but this is becasue they went for the mystery angle with him. The koopalings however are really good in this and really enjoyable. There personalities are far better here than any previous Mario game.
! > Partners contribute to the unique and classic experience of all these elements in the first Paper Mario games both in and out of gameplay, like Noqanky noted about how they developed the world. So it makes sense that a succinct way of noting what fans of the old games and old games only might find wrong with Paper Mario nowadays is the lack of partners in how they connect to various major traditional RPG components.
! You don't neccessarily need the partners to flesh out the world though. Color Splash does it fine without. And not every partner in the original two Paper Mario games does this. Parakarry, Sushi, Lakilester and Yoshi Kid do very little to flesh out the world iirc. They kinda just joing Mario because and then that is it. They don't affedct anything after that.
! > Regardless, yeah, you can totally prefer the older games just because they have partners alone lol.
! People can enjoy whatever they want and whatever they don't want for whatever small reason sure. I personally think it is a shame to judge something by a component that I personally don't consider to be that major to the overall experience but everyone is different.
! > And I was always a fan of Super Paper Mario as its own game despite its controversial and awkward changes.
! Same haha. I think it has the best story personally but that might because the sense of scope with this game is bigger with whole universes obliterated and the like. It feels like there is more at stake.
! > Actually, I've played The Thousand Year Door several times and I know that the paper folding transformations do not play a role in battle.
! I guess i misremembered that. Although Paper does play a role in the aesthetics of battle. I know there is a move in TTYD where the big orange star literally rips holes in the screen. Thinking about it that is about the same as the latest games as well. Paper Jam is the only game where Paper and Combat do go hand-in-hand with stacking and paper airplanes there.
! > I believe you're arguing here that it's the focus on the paper mechanics in Sticker Star and Color Splash that give Paper Mario a unique identity compared to its traditional RPG elements directly inspired by Super Mario RPG. I see where you're going with that and I get it, and I know you aren't criticizing the previous games as being bad, but that doesn't mean that going for any unconventional gameplay method that helps you stand out has to be appreciated. There's nothing wrong with following conventions because series can always put unique definitive twists on them. Yes, what a franchise represents can change over time, but that doesn't mean it's always for a beneficial change that people should praise. Change can be controversial, as we all know. And change can be good or bad, especially from a subjective perspective (although you can still argue objectively rational reasoning behind having such opinions).
! The old games aren't bad at all. Sticker Star, arguably when they first really jumped on the whole paper thing full force, is the worst game in the series. But it wasn't the jump to paper that did that it was various gameplay and story issues. I don't think there is anything wrong with following conventions or traditions either. I think IS can still have partners and still have the focus and emphasis be on the paper mechanic. But I'm not arguing it is one or the other. I am saying that the paper mechanic is far more important than the partner one and that the series can go on a be good even without partners. Their absence does not destroy the game.
! > It's not the Paper aspect that makes the characters different from the main Mario series. It's the RPG elements allowing for expanded personalities, abilities, unique designs, and completely new races/major characters that are what makes them different because the main games don't care about even trying to have proficient writing or characterization.
! This is true but at the same time it is also not the partner system that allows for this. It is good writing, an interesting setting and an interesting design. There are many new and unique races in the old games that are not partners.
! > MArio & Luigi Paper Jam
! I agree there are issues there. They wanted to focus on the two universes meeting and what it is like to meet your dopple-ganger rather than a true crossover of both worlds. But that goes both ways. None of the interesting elements of Mario & Luigi are there either outside of the gameplay. But Paper Jam does help to prove my point that their focus is the Paper because that is the biggest thing combining their universes brought. Everything Paper Mario does in that game is paper related from the Trio attacks to paper airplanes, to paper crafts to turning into a tissue for Luigi. This is what they felt was the most important part of that series to focus on in the crossover and not the interesting worlds and locales of the Paper Mario series.
! > They couldn't even meet because Paper Luigi is only seen in the soundtrack listening menu. This is the type of bland lack of identity found when when the paper components are enhanced as mechanics made to replace all of the appreciated RPG elements from a series like Paper Mario.
! So here is the thing with that. The game was still a Mario & Luigi game but arguably all the core RPG gameplay elements of the Paper Mario series did come over. From a gameplay standpoint, Paper Mario does everything he does in battle in the old games here and he himself is the partner character to regular Mario & Luigi. The only thing missing and the thing you are complain about is, once again, unique NPC and locales which, as I stated above, they left out because they prioritized having identical characters meet up with each other and see the same people contrasting. But that affects both sides and is more a fault of NSMBing up the games than a shift to focus on Paper.
! > I respect that you like Intelligent Systems going for a completely unique style for gameplay and story in Color Splash, but that doesn't mean the old gameplay system was too repetitive and that it had to completely change for the sake of completely changing.
! I agree, it didn't need to completely change. It just wanted to find something unique to make it stand-out from other Mario RPGs. They tried it with Super Paper Mario by genre shifting but keeping the compelling storyline but I believe it got met with a lukewarm response. So they went back to the RPG route with Sticker Star and wanted to change up the gameplay then to make it different. They tried one way, via Miyamoto's suggestion, and it didn't work. They tried a slightly different way with Color Splash which is better but ultimately still doesn't work. The thing to note from what they tried though is that they played around with the Paper concept to make something. The stickers in the first game and color in the second. So whatever they try next will likely take Paper into account again (unless they do outright give up and go back to being another Mario RPG). That could involve partners or it could not but the point is they seem to have decided that playing with the Paper mechanic is the way to go. They should honestly do what Paper Jam did with it because I honestly think that is the best way Paper Mario could've gone from a gameplay perspective. Kind of awkward that the series they are trying to differentiate themselves from came up with what they should've done first.
! > That is the potential Paper Mario had before Intelligent Systems had an identity crisis with Super Paper Mario and decided to hand the reigns to Miyamoto's unquestionable judgment when he probably didn't even fully play the first two games to understand why they were successful.
! I don't think the potential is lost. It just needs more work done on it because so far it hasn't worked. And I don't think they handed the reigns to Miyamoto. It was more an issue of 'you don;t question Miyamoto' which seems to be a recurring thing in recent years. A Miyamoto problem more than an IS problem.
! > You're trying to argue that the new Paper Mario games are trying to be distinguishably unique when, if anything, it just became more generically streamlined with the bland conventions of the main series (mainly New Super Mario Bros). I say that it just uses the pretty paper mechanics to cover up how generic the series has actually become under the seams.
! Your focus on generic is aimed at the wrong place though. You are talking specifically about stuff like the world, characters and story which are generic in Sticker Star but not color splash (except character design, that is). But from a gameplay outlook the stickers and color mechanics are unique for Mario/Nintendo. But both have flaws in how IS handled it. But it is nothing that can't be improved upon.
! > And like Noqanky said, there is just so much wrong with claiming that Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi are the exact same. Similar? Totally. In the same way that Super Mario Bros, Kirby's Dream Land, and Donkey Kong Country are all platformers with obvious distinctions. They're really only similar in having a partner in battle (which is completely different in terms of functions between both series), basic jump and hammer attacks, and badges. But having little fundamental differences? That's just… Wow.
! Just like i said to Noqanky, on its most outward facing layer (location, story, etc) it is different obviously. But it's fundamental gameplay was the same before Paper Mario went for the switch. Super Mario Bros, Kirby and Donkey Kong are all platformers but all have major differences for platformers (Jumping does everything;, designed around flying and power-up usage; precision platforming which requires a good sense of timing and momentum). For RPGs the story and characters were different definitely but the gameplay was near enough the same. Small minor things like Badges in Paper Mario and Equipment in Mario & Luigi helped to mask these differences using different names but they are ultimately the same thing in a different coat of paint. If these were two separate companies then it wouldn't matter so much but they are both Nintendo and both Super Mario. It's this same situation why we probably have not seen a New Super Mario Land, because Nintendo does not see the point in making another line of 2D platformers for Mario when they have New Super Mario Bros. (i have my own arguments against that philosophy but another day).
! > You keep pushing the uniqueness factor as a merit in and of itself with the paper mechanics when that is not an objectively qualitative attribute. At all. You can't defend a series by just saying that "it's different!" as if those differences are either automatically better or on a pedestal that can't be critiqued. At least point out how the paper mechanics themselves function more appealingly than the partner system, and then your argument can have a legitimate basis.
! I probably should've made this clear from the start but better late than never. As I said before, the partner system is a feature that was brought forward from the Super Mario RPG series but that feature itself goes back to the dawn of RPGs. Heck it goes back to the game of Dungeons & Dragons where you play in a party. Nearly every RPG out there has a partner system from traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy to action RPGs like Kingdom Hearts; from monster RPGs like Pokemon to even Western RPGs like Elder Scrolls (although here it is optional). It is not something unique to the Paper Mario series and isn't even used in a unique way. Another character to use in battle and they can affect the environment but we see this in other RPGs (like Pokemon for example). The other Mario RPG series, Mario & Luigi, also uses a partner system. But the only major difference from a gameplay perspective is that you have fixed partners rather than ones that can be swapped out. Your partner is always Luigi and then maybe a plus 1. The paper mechanic, however, is unique. How many Nintendo games, or games in general, do you know that plays with the idea of being made of Paper and what that might mean to you as a character but also to the world you live in. The thing that made the older Paper Mario games stand out from other great RPGs (and this isn't a jab at the quality of those games, I mean from a general perspective) was the paper aesthetic because it had rarely ever been seen before. It was unique and seemingly due to IS not wanting to compete with another Mario RPG series running simultaneously they decided to try and change the series to put more emphasis on the Paper, to varying effects. The Paper is, objectively, a qualitative attribute of the series as outside of battles it made puzzle solving and traveling the land far more interesting than just walking from point a to b while engaging in combat. And as I said before, the mechanic was utilized extremely well in combat in Paper Jam, unfortunately, it was part of Mario & Luigi instead. And now recently, the paper mechanics of the world have given Color Splash a unique identity. The way the environment is used as paper and cardboard is great and allows for some memorable moments and story situations that only make sense because they are made of paper. If the main series can just nail that core gameplay with the paper like Mario & Luigi did with Paper Jam then the series can get back to being a fantastic game, partners or not.
! Also, I don't think I was defending a series by saying "it's different!". Not even sure what series you think I'm defending.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Spoiler tagged due to length
! @Noqanky:
! > Yes, I read your original RESPONSE to what I said, but there was nothing in the first post that I responded to that implied it being a joke. So what it amounts to is essentially you baiting other people and when called out going "oh, it was a joke…. but still"What I said originally remains. You jumped in saying something factually wrong. Whether you later on backtracked saying "joke!" doesn't detract from the action having jump-started this conversation having had nothing to do with opinion, rather factually inaccurate baiting.
! Ok first off I amnot factually incorrect. They are partners in the literal sense. They are different partners to the ones from older games but they are still partners to Mario on his adventure. If we want to talk about being factually incorrect then your statement before about them being Navi-esque partners is factually wrong. Navi exists merely for guidance and to give an in-game explanation for Z-targeting. Kirsti and Huey both have abilities that help Mario get through the game, solve puzzles, traverse the environment and act as in-game context for why Mario has the sticker and color manipulation powers. Tippi was a Navi-esque partner but those two are not. If you want to compare them to something then compare them to Goobario or Goombella. In the field they do even less than Navi does, only providing the player information. The other function they have is being able to fight but that is it. This gives them less than either Kersti or Huey. You don't need to fight to be a good partner.
! > Also, I don't see why suddenly you're assuming me to be pedantic and then you agree with what I'm saying. How is it pedantic to explain that you are inaccurate, and then ask if you have played the games recently? You already demonstrated that you agree with me about being inaccurate, and Count Mario himself elaborated. But I'm the pedantic one. How? If it's regarding the skimming I mention that I skimmed it because it's a very sizable post that is jumping into topics that have nothing to do with the original point you brought up, which is what brought me into this conversation in the first place.
! You know what 'pedantic' means right? To be too concerned with minor details. I was talking about the differences between Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario. The setting, story, system, etc. Of course there are differences there but that is not what I was talking about. The core gameplay of both games is almost exactly the same. The only differences being really minor name changes (like the badges with the equipment) and the fact that Mario & Luigi has the established core of the two working together whereas the old Paper Mario games had a bit of the Paper as the focus in ttyd but were mainly just ordinary JRPGs.
! > Regarding the differences I mentioned, one of the issues is that you are comparing the games in terms of plot and narrative whereas they should be compared in terms of mechanics.
! What? Comparing them via mechanics was exactly what I was doing.
! > In which case the core IS the same, involving RPG adventures with action commands defining combat and interaction with the world being extensive and involving collection and traveling. However, Paper Mario is defined by the partner mechanic in that it affects how the player traverses the world and obtains items as well as the sorts of things you can achieve in combat. Puzzle-solving and world-building involves these partners, sometimes more often than others, while the growth of mario is limited to a couple weapon upgrades and everything else is only combat based.
! Right and that was what made it different from Super Mario RPG. They improved upon it. That was also the exact same thing the Mario & Luigi series did as the ways they could work together in order to get around their environment and solve puzzles was also integral to that game. And you know what? Paper Mario still has that. Super Paper Mario used the partners for that purpose but also the different playable characters. Sticker Star used Kersti and the stickers for that purpose. Color Splash used Huey, color and thing objects all for that purpose. Heck, even TTYD doesn't give this idea strictly to partners. Mario can solo this in some instances with his all his paper abilities. In a way that makes the partner mechanic less unique in TTYD because Mario doesn't need them for some things. He doesn't need a partner to get across large gaps or bodies of water anymore. He can do that himself with the plane and boat transformations.
! > Mario and Luigi approaches progress through growth and evolution of the mario and luigi partnership over time, and combat also emphasizes control of each brother independently at all times, allowing for combo moves, evasion, defense strategy, items, etc.
! Right. The team found a core that makes this series unique and straight away. Paper Mario's partner mechanic doesn't do this, though. It isn't something exclusive to this series, Mario & Luigi also does this - even in later games where it is more than the two of them like Bowser's Inside Story. And, as I said above, if that is what the big draw of the partner mechanic is for the series and why it should be the main focus then it is still around because recent partners focus entirely on that. But honestly, I don't think that is the focus of the series. If it was then Mario would not have gained his own utility from TTYD onwards. In M&L when you only have one brother you basically can do the absolute bare minimum. You need both. You don't with Paper Mario though (outside of versy specific puzzles like hitting a switch far away). Mario gained the ability to maneuvere on his own when the team decided to shift focus to the Paper mechanics which, is now, what the main focus of the series is.
! > It wasn't until TTYD that Paper Mario became more combat based and even then the focus was on partners and then the added mechanic of audience elements. So the core of Paper Mario shifted more towards being a tale, a story, an adventure in a specific world with characters and events. Mario and Luigi, even with unique stories and events, revolves in concept and mechanics around the interactions between the brothers, whether it's just them, or with their baby counterparts, or within bowser, or with multiple luigis, or with paper mario. To say they are nearly identical reflects a very shallow view of the games.
! Except I was talking specifically about gameplay. From a gameplay perspective, the Paper Mario series is basically identical to Mario & Luigi. The main differences being that Mario & Luigi has more gameplay mechanics that make it stand-out as an RPG than Paper Mario did. From a story perspective, they are radically different. Paper Mario TTYD had the better story and I have never once said that was not the case. Arguably that was the focus of the first 2 Paper Mario games because that was the focus of Super Mario RPG. But that is also the focus of the majority of RPGs out there. Whereas Mario & Luigi found something to make it unique, Paper Mario didn't. From its Gameplay mechanics, and purely from them, they are basically the same game. Then you add more on top to make the differences so they are not the exact same game. Mario & Luigi found something unique. Paper Mario did not and clearly they wanted to fix that. Super Paper Mario was an attempt, and it was an attempt that kept the story. They can focus on Paper and Story, it is not one or the other. But clearly, IS decided that the focus of the series was not the story. So Sticker Star happened. And it bombed. With Color Splash they attempted to do what Mario & Luigi does. Have a core at the forefront to build the series around and have the story built around it instead of the other way around. And it could've worked if their core was actually better. But in the old games the partner is not the core. You just said yourself it was the story and Super Paper Mario proved you can have a good story without the conventional partners. The Pixls barely do anything to affect the story outside of Tippi, the navi-esque partner.
! > As for the change, it has been documented already that the core shift in approach with Paper Mario involved Miyamoto saying the 3DS version in development was boring, and leading to greater emphasis in the sticker mechanic and it making it more of a mario game. Hence focus on mario-centered enemies, concepts like levels, and a simplistic storyline that interferes as little as possible with the function.
! This was a core change for the story of Paper Mario and the focus of Sticker Star yes. And it turned out for the worst. But it was not the change in the core focus of the whole series which started back in Super Paper Mario and arguably first surfaced in TTYD. Whether Miyamoto is at the center of this as well or not we don't know. But they clearly wanted to change things after TTYD despite its success. You can blame Miyamoto for the change in story focus for sticker star but that's something they got half-way to fixing in Color Splash. The change to gameplay was happening way before. The sticker mechanic was in Sticker Star before Miyamoto intervened, he just heightened it to stupid levels. As you stated earlier that the focus was on the partners because of how they affected Mario's environment in the first game then we can already see a slow progression away from them in the Thousand Year Door for reasons I gave before. And then in Super Paper Mario they became nothing but a way for Mario to progress but removed all story-purpose for the majority of them.
! > The team has indeed referred to Mario and Luigi as an excuse of why Paper Mario isn't used as an RPG, but that shows a lack of understanding of what Paper Mario was since Mario and Luigi lacks the big, defining element of partners and it doesn't approach story, world-building or combat in the same ways.
! I don't think it does though. When you take out the story of both series then what the Paper Mario games are left with is a less streamlined and less unique combat system than Mario & Luigi. I'm sure the team didn't like that. The one thing that makes the Paper Mario combat different from the majority of JRPGs out there is the timing on the button presses that it took from Super Mario RPG but Mario & Luigi also has that. The partner system in combat isn't any different from say, Chrono Trigger. But Chrono Triggers' other gameplay elements do more for that mechanic than Paper Mario does. So at its core, Paper Mario's combat is a lesser version of Chrono Triggers with concepts taken from/used in another Mario RPG series.
! Now Mario & Luigi doesn't approach world-building in the same way as Paper Mario, which the latter did much better. But I was never talking about the story. I was talking about gameplay.
! > It'd be like changing pokemon and saying "oh, if you want a pokemon experience just play dragon quest"
! That was an awful example. Like, Pokemon and the main Dragon Quest games are entirely different forms of RPGs whereas Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi certainly are not.
! > Regarding your last assessment, a lot more needs to be done to ensure a better-than-TTYD experience, since the core problem is that color splash was approached as an action adventure game with an RPG mechanic based on collection, instead of an adventure RPG with focus on character growth and world-building.
! Yes and no. It can be an action adventure with RPG mechanics if done well but it wasn't. The RPG mechanics were better than Sticker Star but still not up to the standard it should be. Color Splash does have character growth and world building. Not as much as TTYD but it is still there and not to a minor extent. To try and ignore it is just wrong.