Yeeaahh… but I'd be slightly hesitant in calling either of those 2 things
'God'.
Chapter 423 "Mermaid Legend" Discussion
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it's an awesome solution! look at this spread, it's so funny!
i'll never get how people can be dissapointed by what oda pulls up, like they think he could have done something better. why don't you just read and enjoy it? i repeat that every week but i believe i'll make one of you, all people who every week spit on the spoilers, get my point. (i don't know if you, Natty Bumppo is like that, i just use your comment to place my rant, don't blame me )
i dont think i am as dissapointed as you think i am. i thought it was rather funny and disturbing (i really didnt want to see Kororo in a bra :blink: ) but its not like i am spiting on it. ill admit, i didnt enjoy it as much as other chapters, but i enjoyed it nonetheless. its one of the rare times i accuse Oda of DEX. the only times i remeber i have are:
when the lightning bolt hit Buggy in Lougetown.
Chopper's Monster Point
Gear 2nd and 3rd.
and now this.but i still love and will always love One Piece.:happy:
EDIT: I hate opening up a can of worms.
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What has Lucci knowing Life Returns got to do with Chopper?
it was me just playfully goating Chopper to improve his combat abilities become less reliant on the rumble balls and ultimately learn life returns.
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@Natty:
i dont think i am as dissapointed as you think i am. i thought it was rather funny and disturbing (i really didnt want to see Kororo in a bra :blink: ) but its not like i am spiting on it. ill admit, i didnt enjoy it as much as other chapters, but i enjoyed it nonetheless. its one of the rare times i accuse Oda of DEX. the only times i remeber i have are:
when the lightning bolt hit Buggy in Lougetown.
Chopper's Monster Point
Gear 2nd and 3rd.
and now this.but i still love and will always love One Piece.:happy:
EDIT: I hate opening up a can of worms.
I really don't think we can call this Deus ex Machina until next week, given that there's no way in Hell this isn't going to be explained a bit sometime soon. If it's a completely contrived answer, perhaps it is Deus ex Machina. But if it makes sense in the context of the story, it is not.
The lightning bolt was supposed to show how ridiculously lucky Luffy is. It served an actual purpose in the context of the story, so it's not D.E.X.
Gear 2nd was foreshadowed in the Davy Back Fight arc, with "To save my mates, I will fight to the death!" This is a bit of foreshadowing about how Gear 2nd hurts Luffy when he uses it, in my opinion. Then Gear 3 was foreshadowed in the Blueno battle, of course.
I'm actually willing to give you monster Chopper as Deus ex Machina. It was never even mentioned that eating more than one Rumble Ball was a bad idea until now.
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@Natty:
well, i was always taught in my english class, that D.E.X meant basically: a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty. (taken from m-w.com) i dont mean to rub it in your face, but no matter where i look (english help sites, wikipedia, dictionary.com), all definitions of D.E.X mean basically the same thing as i have stated.
i know its how stories get resolved, ive read plenty of stories that have D.E.X. i can name at least 5 and name each example, but the whole Kororo turns into Mermaid thing came out of nowhere and solved the problem. which is why D.E.X came to my mind.
Well, it doesn't quite seem like Dues ex machina to me, because I imagine that it was planned. Kokoro was often called a gyojin/monster and she lived with the fishman Tom.
Oda could have avoided this too if he just made the tunnel capable of being destroyed be Sanji or Zoro. Kokoro as a mermaid is for comedy, so it's not that serious to the plot. Also, we know that meramaids exist in One Piece already.
Really, too many people shout "D.E.M" whenever an out-there way is used to solve a problem. Sure, One Piece uses it, but not that much…in recent memory.
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having just caught up in the thread i'd like to state two things:
Taz, i think you have to realise that the Buster Call is a heartless attack which does not descriminate or differentiate in any way, that is why only Vice Admirals are selected because they're at a level of all or nothing in regards to their careers. Spandam and the whole of CP9 are about absolute justice as is the buster call and Absolute Justice is evil according to Oda.Yes Kokoro was DEX, she like so mnay other things this arc were pulled out of Oda's arse, however it was the ONLY solution to the tunnel problem really so what can you do.
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Taz, i think you have to realise that the Buster Call is a heartless attack which does not descriminate or differentiate in any way,
How could I not? It's been systematically screamed in our faces the last 100 chapters or so.
VA or not, it wouldn't be that much to show even a glimmer of conflict amongst the commanders. Or is Aokiji really one in a million? Absolute justice is supposed to be one of several policies within the ranks, but it seems lately just about everyone subscribes to it.
@Dixxy:
On the contrary, I think there is still some debate. They're clearly hiding something from the world - otherwise researching history wouldn't be a crime so serious it would require or call for a Buster Call.
I am hoping for something a bit more complex on both sides regarding the lost history, but from what we've seen in Robin's flashback it seems nothing more than a simplistic "government hides history with a vengeance to cover their blood-stained tracks and keep themselves in power."
I just realized something…If Kokoro took of her pants to revert to mermaid form...and her jacket to hold the strawhats...What will she be wearing when they arrive on dry land?
Happiness Punch II: The Revenge
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Well, actually, Deus Ex Machina (ancient grec term in their litterature) means << God Gets Out of the Machine >>, used to talk about the appearance of a God that creates an opening and resolve a desperate situation.
It's not ancient Greek, it is Latin, it also doesn't have to refer to a God, it can also be a King, or any other character/messenger that is lowered on a crane to create a solution.
Kokoro's character showed quirky characteristics hinting towards her mermaid persona from her introduction, Gear 2 if you follow the story has a reason, Monster Point in particular came in the middle of a battle for no particular reason other than to save Chopper without giving him a reason as to why he surpassed a CP9 member, unlike the other characters whose upgrades each counteracted CP9 techniques.
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@Taz:
How could I not? It's been systematically screamed in our faces the last 100 chapters or so.
VA or not, it wouldn't be that much to show even a glimmer of conflict amongst the commanders. Or is Aokiji really one in a million? Absolute justice is supposed to be one of several policies within the ranks, but it seems lately just about everyone subscribes to it.
But that's the whole point, the one thing we've been shown is that Aokiji is one in a million, we're not even sure if he beleives in the idealology of the WG, thus far we've been lead to beleive that he considers Robin his responsibility. He's tracked her throughout her life and even showed the mugiwars their own weaknesses, then he made sure she was safe during the buster call, he appears to be watching this whole arc unfold and is sacrificing marine after marine in his pursuit of Robin's happiness and progression. I'm still not gonna discount the enhanced effects of the aqua laguna from his doing based on temperature fluctuating. To hold anyone upto Aokiji as a reference point is really unfair, he's shrouded in mystery.
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Actually in the earlier half of the series, the marines demonstrated a lot more individuality. Smoker, Tashigi, Garp, Hina, etc. all seemed like rational, thinking and sympathetic characters, even though they were on the opposite sides of Luffy and co. Again, that's one reason I really liked OP, things weren't presented as black and white. Lately that's how they are.
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@Taz:
Actually in the earlier half of the series, the marines demonstrated a lot more individuality. Smoker, Tashigi, Garp, Hina, etc. all seemed like rational, thinking and sympathetic characters, even though they were on the opposite sides of Luffy and co. Again, that's one reason I really liked OP, things weren't presented as black and white. Lately that's how they are.
but it's not quite the earlier half of the series though, it's just that this one arc, he's decided to emphasize on one of the characters worst fears in the whole world and try and make it seem like she's not overreacting.
When you look at Hina for example she tried to pursue the mugiwara at all costs despite them having just saved a kingdom, so ultimately she falls under the whole mindless drone thing.
The CP9 were presented as bloodthirsty killers off the bat in the same way the Buster Call is, there's no need to give these things personality especially when chances are we'll see neither ever again.
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The gorosei are pretty mysterious, though that could be considered the first half still. We've only seen one or two VAs actually in action recently, however. Even still, I wouldn't expect the rest of them to be much different.
It would still be nice to see some different personalities among the rest of the VAs in the near future. So this is more about not wanting one-dimensional marine characters now? I don't think we're going to see many in the rest of this arc. There's too much other stuff going on, plus given the nature of the Buster Call…this is really the only situation where they're black and white.
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but it's not quite the earlier half of the series though, it's just that this one arc, he's decided to emphasize on one of the characters worst fears in the whole world and try and make it seem like she's not overreacting.
Considering we haven't seen any of the other marines since Jaya, I'd say it was the earlier half. And from what we discovered from Robin's flashback, it seems in future arcs the WG is going to be shockingly revealed as a power-mad, eeeeeevil force.
When you look at Hina for example she tried to pursue the mugiwara at all costs despite them having just saved a kingdom, so ultimately she falls under the whole mindless drone thing.
I don't think Hina knew at that point what they had done. And until we see her killing her own men/innocent civilians just to capture them, I wouldn't exactly group her with the "mindless drones".
Failing to give character development and sympathetic elements to antagonists such as CP9 is taking an easy way out. Simply and villify to extremes so the Straw Hats can be enthusiastically rooted for without question.
So this is more about not wanting one-dimensional marine characters now?
Should we post more about the shock of Kokoro being a mermaid?
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@Taz:
Considering we haven't seen any of the other marines since Jaya, I'd say it was the earlier half. And from what we discovered from Robin's flashback, it seems in future arcs the WG is going to be shockingly revealed as a power-mad, eeeeeevil force.
we met a good marine per major arc and then went to a pirate island so of course theirs no marines, straight after that we went to skypiea and of course theirs no marines. and now we've gone to a marine island under the rule of an evil ambitious dictator who threatens everyones with being hanged, the one thing that's being reitterated is that non-ranking marines just follow orders.
I don't think Hina knew at that point what they had done. And until we see her killing her own men/innocent civilians just to capture them, I wouldn't exactly group her with the "mindless drones".
we don't know enough about her yet but i'd say thus far she's firmly in that group.
Failing to give character development and sympathetic elements to antagonists such as CP9 is taking an easy way out. Simply and villify to extremes so the Straw Hats can be enthusiastically rooted for without question.
Should we post more about the shock of Kokoro being a mermaid?
i'm not sure where you got that from, they were never antagonists, they were mere drones of Spandam, the only one that could be considered an antagonist is Lucci and he's pretty much said that he just wants the fight of his life.
As for Kokoro, i kinda predicted it in the last chapter thread so it's not really that discussion worthy for me outside of the whole DEX thing.
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Their reaction about Kokoro being a mermaid was simply hilarious I loved that.
The Franky vs. Spandam fight was indeed sweet. About Luffy vs. Lucci, I have a suspicion that the battle will end in the next chapter. Just look at Lucci's reaction and Luffy's evil smile… it gonna be a big knock out.
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Hina's job isn't to judge. Her job is to capture wanted criminals. Luffy is a wanted criminal. End of story.
People tend to forget this. There's a difference between the police force (marines in this case) and the judiciary (WG). Whether or not someone is actually guilty of the crime they are accused of is irrelevant. If there's a warrant out for their arrest, it's their job to arrest them. Let the judge decide if they are guilty.
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now we've gone to a marine island under the rule of an evil ambitious dictator who threatens everyones with being hanged, the one thing that's being reitterated is that non-ranking marines just follow orders.
The VAs are non-ranking?
Come to think of it, I don't think we have ever seen even one sympathetic gov't agent. They is all bad peepol.
we don't know enough about her yet but i'd say thus far she's firmly in that group.
Hina's already been given some characterization, so I don't see where you get that. She wasn't even compromising the beliefs she embodies by doing her duty (in this case, capturing wanted pirates), that's a far cry from "mindless drone."
i'm not sure where you got that from, they were never antagonists, they were mere drones of Spandam, the only one that could be considered an antagonist is Lucci and he's pretty much said that he just wants the fight of his life.
Antagonist as a noun, not an adjective. Anyone that's ever fought against Luffy et all are automatically their antagonists.
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great chapter. spanda finally got it, and i never thought he'd get owned by getting crushed by an elephant.
luffy+luchi is done within 2 chapters, i think.
is chopper awake now? his face/emotion is the same as everyone elses when they see mermaid kokoro, but he had that face before too, when he was unconcious…...
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Regarding the end of the Luffy-Lucci fight, if chapter 418 is any indication it might end with gear 2
http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemangav-3/chapter418.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9717
But then again, it's really all speculation until Lucci finally stops. -
wow, thanks for the chap and the trans ^_^
Nice drop Franky!! yeah!! and yes!! come on, stand up Robin!! >_<
aah…. chibi Luffy... so cute, but lucky he didn't stay in that form for too long
and...... mermaid .... heh.... that's Oda for you XD hahaahha -
@Taz:
Hina's already been given some characterization, so I don't see where you get that. She wasn't even compromising the beliefs she embodies by doing her duty (in this case, capturing wanted pirates), that's a far cry from "mindless drone."
if she was just following orders then surely that makes her a drone?
Antagonist as a noun, not an adjective. Anyone that's ever fought against Luffy et all are automatically their antagonists.
an·tag·o·nist Pronunciation (n-tg-nst)
n.
1. One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary.
2. The principal character in opposition to the protagonist or hero of a narrative or drama.the rest of the CP9 weren't so much opposing the mugiwaras as much as obstacles and we're not about to start referring to assult courses as antagonist fields are we?
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**Hina's no drone. that's like calling Zoro a drone because he went with luffy to eneis lobby.
As for "good" marines, we have"
Hina
AoKiji
Smoker
T-Bone
Coby
Helmeppo
Garp
Garps adviser
Most of the noramal marines** -
if she was just following orders then surely that makes her a drone?
By that definition anyone who does their job is a drone. If they are shown to be able to think for themselves (regardless of the decisions they make) and are not just robots that mindlessly follow orders, then they aren't.
an·tag·o·nist Pronunciation (n-tg-nst)
n.
1. One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary.
2. The principal character in opposition to the protagonist or hero of a narrative or drama.Go with the first definition. (In any case my original point was the SH's adversaries, the one's on the "other side". No need for a semantic debate.)
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thank you Battle Franky
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Wow. Kokoro as a mermaid is…interesting. Surprisingly though, she didn't turn out as ugly as I thought.
Notice how Oda pulled the same trick he pulled with Alvida. Showing us brief glimpses of what appears to be a bautiful woman, then...FATNESS!! -
wheres Hattori during all of this…
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@Octogon:
**Hina's no drone. that's like calling Zoro a drone because he went with luffy to eneis lobby.
As for "good" marines, we have"
AoKiji**
After all i think he is not a good Guy… He was at first Bustercall and so he was one of the "Killers" that destroys Ohara and the People on it..... and now he was the Guy behind Bustercall at Enies Lobby and now there are People who will die and Aokiji knows that so why should he a good Guy?
All Others of your List would not do that i think but they would try to stop Bc i think -
@Octogon:
**Hina's no drone. that's like calling Zoro a drone because he went with luffy to eneis lobby.
As for "good" marines, we have"
Hina
AoKiji
Smoker
T-Bone
Coby
Helmeppo
Garp
Garps adviser
Most of the noramal marines**I don't agree with this. We don't actually know if the highest members of the World Government are good or not. We know that the hide the lost history and they kill for it, but we don't know why. Clover said that the world needed to know about the lost history, but not that he had to unveil the WG's secret plot.
I think that Oda's trying to lead us into thinking that the WG is bad by showing off some of the worse members (Nezumi, Spandam, Scichibukai guys and that VA that shot his crewmates, but for the better good of course) but in the end they are just trying to cover something terrible that can't be thrown out in the public.
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As for "good" marines, we have"
Hina
AoKiji
Smoker
T-Bone
Coby
Helmeppo
Garp
Garps adviser
Most of the noramal marinesAnd Tashigi !! ^^
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After all i think he is not a good Guy… He was at first Bustercall and so he was one of the "Killers" that destroys Ohara and the People on it..... and now he was the Guy behind Bustercall at Enies Lobby and now there are People who will die and Aokiji knows that so why should he a good Guy?
All Others of your List would not do that i think but they would try to stop Bc i thinkAokiji is most likely a good guy. He let Robin go because he wanted to see what she would do with her life, seeing how Saul died to protect her. In his eyes, Robin only worked for scum and they all either screwed over and/or captured. Then she went and worked for Crocodile in a plan to take over not only a country, but also the entire world. He has no sympathy for a criminal who he created.
Of course, we understand Robin’s tragic circumstances, but he probably never expected Robin to be second in command in an organization formed for the soul purpose of world domination. Can’t you see why he reacted the way he did? I don’t know whether he expected for Luffy and crew to go out of their way to save Robin. I think he legitimately thought that after he planted the seeds of doubt in the Strawhats’ minds (that she has betrayed all other crews she’s been with) that they would abandon her once it seemed like she had indeed betrayed them. It could be that he never expected the reaction that the Strawhats had, let alone that it would lead to the bustercall actually called upon at freaking Ennis Lobby. -
I haven't read every page of posts. However I don't agree that kokoro being a mermaid was D.E.X mainly because not only were the hints there that she had something else to her but if anything the flooding was introduced to bring this side out, because I was thinking that either nami or sogeking could have solved their predicament easily. Also I have to say the ending was the funniest a chapter has been in quite a while and for soe reason this week it seemed longer. Lastly is choppr awake then? and was he imigining with the rest of them.
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Dues Ex Machina would be something out of left field, something that wasn't expected. I thought everyone thought that she was a Fishwoman just like Tom was a Fishman. Instead she was a mermaid. People have already provided evidence that it indeed was not out of no where. Just because you didn't see something doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Honestly it would be better if you people just called the whole thing kind of fishy.
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Kokoro is NOT. A FISHWOMAN. She is a FECKING MERMAID.
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I kind of edited in there right before you replied I guess. I knew that but it really wasn't my point.
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It was a Deus ex Machina for me, anyway…I never suspected her to be a mermaid...I just thought she was a funny-looking old lady...I thought Chimney actually might be part fishperson, seeing as how Kokoro was Tom's "hot secretary," and, well, you know what people do with their hot secretaries...
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from Answers. com Dues Ex Machina means.
1. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
1. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.
Form your opinion from there people. Not trying to be a know-it-all, just tryin to help. -
When Franky first see's her in Blueno's Bar, he's surprised and says that he thought she was a giant sea monster head. Could've been some foreshadowing.
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What I don't get is… what the hell is the problem with this kind of DEX? Oda laid hints and obviously planned it. Most events that are DEX in OP have a decent background information. Even the lightining in Logue Town had a hint later on by Dragon's gust of wind and his "weather powers".
My problem is with the bad DEX that often pop up in shounen manga. Like the sand trio appearing in Naruto during Sasuke arc (and naruto has so many other examples but i'm not going to bother listing them...). Or when stronger good guy A stops the bad guy final attack.
Actually I wouldn't even rank some events listed above has Deus Ex Machina... it's storytelling from where i come from.
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What I don't get is… what the hell is the problem with this kind of DEX? Oda laid hints and obviously planned it. Most events that are DEX in OP have a decent background information. Even the lightining in Logue Town had a hint later on by Dragon's gust of wind and his "weather powers".
The problem isn't the concept. As I said earlier, people here _misuse the terms "deus ex machina" and "jump the shark" a LOT.
If Luffy goes Super Saiyan, it's a deus ex machina. If Blueno wakes up and fights Franky, that's plausible but hardly out of left field- he was knocked out first, it's likely for him to wake up first._
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I think it was more like a twist rather than a bad dex. Oda could have used several different means of them escaping, he is definitely smart enough to find a way. But due to his creative intuition, I believe he used this sort of mean as a "surprise" and a "haha" moment with acknowledging the sort of grotesque appearance of Kokoro to his advantage as an unconventional mermaid (such that he expected many fans wouldn't have that coming). Sorta like how he used Wanze's groteqsue appearance to his advantage. Likewise a true dex, I would percieve it, would be as if Ace showed up during the Luffy and Ao Kiji fight (which many in the board expected to do so <_<) and owned him.
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Oda probably had this idea since he created Kokoro.
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from Answers. com Dues Ex Machina means.
1. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
1. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.
Form your opinion from there people. Not trying to be a know-it-all, just tryin to help.Um, form that difinition then One Piece is 99% Dues ex Machina.
…now, with that in mind, why are we whining about this again? Kokoro saved the crew, and there were lights hints (looking back) that she wasn't human. Everything seems in order to me.
Then again, I have an explaination/excuse for every so-called plot hole in One Piece.
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lol i sense an explanation in the next chapter about her being a mermaid
this chapter seems to be very animal based
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Has there been a scanlation made yet?
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I knew that something was wrong with that old lady from the moment i saw her horrible face when she was first introduced .
So she is a mermaid ? No wonder she can talk to frogs .
Tom could have chosen a more attractive secretary than THAT , the guy had scary taste . -
sexy.
I dont understand though how luffy can return to his original size like that.
(Will have to wait for the next chapter I guess)
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Did anyone else notice Luffy breathed out to expel the air from Gear 3? Wasn't all that air in his bones? How did it get into his lungs?
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the bone marrow is connected to the blood vessels, which are connected to the lungs