During the marinford war, Crocodile's attacks looked a bit haki-ish imo. Anyway, did he actually managed to cut akainu? The panel was confusing…
Not sure about Moriah (or Moria or whatever its spelled) tho
Shichibukai Discussion Thread
-
-
I feel like anyone who managed to go toe-to-toe with an emperor probably was capable of using haki…in Moria, Croc and Buggy's case I felt like maybe they regressed.
Not that power automatically = ability to use haki, or ability to use haki=power. Otherwise Aisa is stronger than half the post timeskip strawhats.
-
If we consider they weren't that far from rookies at the time they were defeated and decided to retreat to Paradise, it wouldn't be strange for them not to be able to use Haki. Consider how much Luffy accomplished before even realizing Haki is a thing.
What is strange is that they didn't even know about it, or knew but didn't try to train themselves to use it by the time Luffy came along. But well, Oda should be forgiven that much.
-
I just want to know what purpose in the story will the new Warlords serve. Oda made Law one during the timeskip, only to remove him 3 arcs later. I think it's a sign that said organization isn't made to last. As many have said, the Reverie is about to come, and then, the Royal Seven Warlords of the Sea will be disbanded. Why would Mihawk bother turning against the WG just because he is no longer one of them? He just wants to do whatever he wants.
if law had said that the straw hats worked under him the new admiral would not have been a threat during the arc since he would have just let doflamingo and the two supernova alliance fight each other.
i never said the warlords would not disbanded at the meeting i am just saying that we will get two new warlords before then one being a zoan since we have not had a zoan warlord unless weavil is one.
-
If we consider they weren't that far from rookies at the time they were defeated and decided to retreat to Paradise, it wouldn't be strange for them not to be able to use Haki. Consider how much Luffy accomplished before even realizing Haki is a thing.
What is strange is that they didn't even know about it, or knew but didn't try to train themselves to use it by the time Luffy came along. But well, Oda should be forgiven that much.
I honestly assume that Crocodile and Moriah can both use Haki in the current story but just chose not to because they didn't need it to fight against Luffy and his crew since none of them are Logia's and because in both cases they severely underestimated Luffy and the SH's considering them to be hapless Rookies that were in way over their heads just like they were when they first entered the New World. So I assume that both Croc and Moriah wanted to take great pleasure in stomping out Luffy and the Straw-Hat's dreams in the same way that Whitebeard and Kaido respectively stomped out their own dreams. But I assume that both Crocodile and Moriah knew about Haki and had trained themselves to at least some degree, but I think you could maybe argue that since they retreated to Paradise, effectively deciding to be a "big fish in a small pond" so to speak, so you could argue that there are very few people who still reside in Paradise with enough mastery or knowledge of Haki to be able to use it effectively enough to teach other people how to master it so… That might explain why Crocodile at the very least didn't know how to use it, if he didn't, since he was pretty far away from the New World, although Moriah was relatively close to the New World given that he was in the Florian Triangle and probably right next to Sabaody Archipleago so... It can't have been that hard to find somebody who knew enough about Haki to at least teach him the basics... Maybe he was just too busy building an army of zombies. :ninja:
And as for why Buggy doesn't know Haki... I assume he knows about it (he was in Gold Roger's crew for Christ's sakes)... I assume he knows how powerful it is and how vital it is to master it to actually succeed among the top tier pirates... and how if he were able to master it then that would effectively be the one way to finally reach the level of his hated rival Shanks... I just assume, strongly assume in fact, that Buggy is just too damn lazy and/or stupid to actually put in the effort to master Haki and become a worthy successor to the Pirate King like his much better classmate Shanks :ninja:
Now one could argue one thing though which is that, how did Crocodile and Moriah not know Haki when they first went to the New World looking to make a name for themselves and were (presumably) much older then Luffy and most of the Straw-Hat's currently are? Well... first of all we have no idea how old they were when they first entered the New World... We know Crocodile's about 38 in the current story and Moriah I think is about 50 or something but... For all we know they might've both been 17-19 when they first entered the NW just like Luffy was (I can kind of see that in Croc's case... More difficult with Moriah though... Picturing a young Moriah is kind of like picturing a smart Luffy or a kind Akainu... It's just not done...) But my point being that... Crocodile and Moriah were both Super-Rookies when they first entered the New World just like Luffy and the rest of the Worst Generation were when they first entered... Keep in mind that the definition of "Super Rookie" seems to have nothing to do with actual age, nor with which Generation you're placed in with regards to Piracy. It really seems to all be about when you chronologically became a Pirate and for how long you were active... Like the Worst Generation that Luffy was a part of has people like Luffy and Law and Kid and (possibly) Bonney who are all in their late teens/early 20's, next to guys like Apoo, Hawkins and Drake who are in their late 20s/early 30s, next to Urouge and Capone who are both clearly in their 40s. All this is confirmed roughly in SBS data as well. And none of the Worst Generation seem to have been able to use Haki before entering the New World. Though we can assume that all of them do know it now that they're in the New World and are more or less thriving. So my point being that Crocodile and Moriah's age when they first entered the New World, and were likely pounded down by the Yonko fairly quickly, doesn't really matter because it seems as though most Rookies that enter the New World at first, regardless of their bounty, haven't mastered or even know about Haki... So that's really not surprising to me.
The only other thing I can say is... When Kaido was first revealed in Chapter 795 I saw a few people commenting "Why would Moriah ever even think of going up against something like that!?" And you just have to remember that... It's really the same reason why Crocodile actually wanted to challenge Whitebeard when he first entered the New World... Moriah and Crocodile were both young, impulsive, brash, reckless Super-Rookies, both with something to prove, who wanted to make a name for themselves in the biggest ways possible so they decided to challenge the biggest, toughest pirates around and paid the price for it in both cases. I've always kind of wanted to see what the exploits of young versions of the Shichibukai and the Yonko would look like, and maybe even the Admirals if we ever get that lucky, just to see how they came to be the way they are now and if they had similar learning curves as Luffy and the Straw-Hats did in terms of getting past their obstacles and being better because of it. We'll probably get something like that I'm just not sure when.
I will say that the failures of Crocodile and Moriah in the New World really kind of makes me think that Luffy and Law have really bitten off more then they can chew by screwing with both Kaido and Big Mom. And to be honest Kid, Apoo and Hawkins have likely done the same thing by choosing to challenge Shanks but also piss of Big Mom and (maybe) Kaido :ninja: due to their own rash and impulsive natures... And I get the feeling that they're all going to get stomped because of it sooner or later. People keep saying that Luffy is going to defeat Big Mom first and then probably Kaido and then Shanks will likely be taken down by external forces (don't really feel the need to speculate on that front just yet) so the final Pirate villain will be Blackbeard but... While that will still likely hold true I really can't see Luffy taking down any of the Yonko without tremendous outside help anytime soon. Luffy challenging Big Mom and Kaido directly is effectively suicide... But he's the kind of guy who I think is willing to pick himself back up after a major loss at the hands of Yonko... And the same is likely true of Law, Kid and the rest of the Worst Generation... And that's what sets up them apart from people like Crocodile and Moriah... Just my two cents...
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@sanji''s_dad:
if law had said that the straw hats worked under him the new admiral would not have been a threat during the arc since he would have just let doflamingo and the two supernova alliance fight each other.
i never said the warlords would not disbanded at the meeting i am just saying that we will get two new warlords before then one being a zoan since we have not had a zoan warlord unless weavil is one.
I actually totally agree that the Warlords aren't going to be disbanded just yet… To me the World Government is going to want to keep the system active for at least a little while longer... Doflamingo predicted that a major war is coming, and it seems like this is going to be a more long-lasting and prevalent war then Marineford... So the World Government is going to want strong people like Mihawk/Kuma/Hancock etc. who at least do some favors for them, mainly by knocking out Yonko fodder from what we can tell, and are at the very least not opposed to the World Government, at least not publicly... That's kind of one of the things about the Shichibukai that kind of gets overlooked from my past experiences... Part of the reason the system's there is to make it so that other active Pirates that are dangerous don't side with other potentially dangerous active pirates that are with the Yonko or the Worst Generation... Obviously that doesn't seem to work given that Doflamingo was in an Alliance with both Kaido and Law but... At the same time it seems as though in spite of Fujitora's protests to the contrary, the WG will likely continue the Shichibukai system for at least a little while longer... So they'll have to find two replacements then...
As for who the replacements will be, I still say Enel is as likely as anybody else. I still can't imagine him not showing up in the story again, and he seems like the kind of guy who'd have no problems with joining the Warlords, and he's clearly powerful enough so... That seems like a safe bet... And as for who will get the 7th spot... I really don't know, and this might be a bit out there, but I still wouldn't rule out Jack as a possibility... Obviously Jack would never be loyal to the World Government, I feel like he would only join them if Kaido ordered him to, possibly as a way of keeping tabs on them in the same way Doflamingo might've potentially... But the reason I can't get past the idea of Jack being a Shichibukai is... I wonder if maybe he was the pirate who was supposed to have cut off Admiral Zephyr's arm in the One Piece movie Z and killed his entire crew... I mean that would explain why his bounty is so ridiculously high, when you soundly defeat an Admiral then that's the kind of thing that people remember you for... And they said that the pirate who cut off Z's arm joined them... Either during the timeskip or afterwards... So maybe Jack joined once Doflamingo and Law's respective slots were open and he wanted to keep tabs on the WG as a sort of double agent... I mean, it's a little bit out there, and I get that Movie Z is non-canon but... I couldn't help but wonder if Jack was supposed to be the pirate that Oda envisioned as doing those unspeakable acts to Zephyr as opposed to Edward Weevil... Weevil just doesn't seem like that kind of guy somehow but Jack definitely does... So it's just a theory that I've had for some time now, and I'm fully prepared for it to be wrong but I've just felt ever since Jack's introduction that maybe that was what Oda was going for as opposed to Edward Weevil. Just me spit-balling personally feel free to disagree.
-
Do you guys think Crocodile and Moriah knew haki before the time skip??
If with before the time skip you mean during their fight with Luffy, then definitely no. Even if they did hold back due to underestimating Luffy at first, there really is no reason to do so at the climax.
However, if you mean at some point in their lifes before, I'm not that sure. Considering that Haki is the manifestation of someone's ambition they might have had it at a time when they still had bigger ambition. Before they became these empty shells of their former self.
This raises the question whether you can actually lose the ability to use haki. I can imagine it to be the case in extreme cases like these two - when you settle down for a long enough time in a less dangerous place like Paradies. But until now there's no evidence for this, right?
Well, Whitebeard did lose the ability to use Observation Haki to some degree as shown when Squardo backstabbed him compared to when Ace attacked him during sleep. But this was due to old age and illness and not because of lacking ambition.
-
@Kareem:
I honestly assume that Crocodile and Moriah can both use Haki in the current story but just chose not to because they didn't need it to fight against Luffy and his crew since none of them are Logia's and because in both cases they severely underestimated Luffy and the SH's considering them to be hapless Rookies that were in way over their heads just like they were when they first entered the New World. So I assume that both Croc and Moriah wanted to take great pleasure in stomping out Luffy and the Straw-Hat's dreams in the same way that Whitebeard and Kaido respectively stomped out their own dreams. But I assume that both Crocodile and Moriah knew about Haki and had trained themselves to at least some degree, but I think you could maybe argue that since they retreated to Paradise, effectively deciding to be a "big fish in a small pond" so to speak, so you could argue that there are very few people who still reside in Paradise with enough mastery or knowledge of Haki to be able to use it effectively enough to teach other people how to master it so… That might explain why Crocodile at the very least didn't know how to use it, if he didn't, since he was pretty far away from the New World, although Moriah was relatively close to the New World given that he was in the Florian Triangle and probably right next to Sabaody Archipleago so... It can't have been that hard to find somebody who knew enough about Haki to at least teach him the basics... Maybe he was just too busy building an army of zombies. :ninja:
And as for why Buggy doesn't know Haki... I assume he knows about it (he was in Gold Roger's crew for Christ's sakes)... I assume he knows how powerful it is and how vital it is to master it to actually succeed among the top tier pirates... and how if he were able to master it then that would effectively be the one way to finally reach the level of his hated rival Shanks... I just assume, strongly assume in fact, that Buggy is just too damn lazy and/or stupid to actually put in the effort to master Haki and become a worthy successor to the Pirate King like his much better classmate Shanks :ninja:
Now one could argue one thing though which is that, how did Crocodile and Moriah not know Haki when they first went to the New World looking to make a name for themselves and were (presumably) much older then Luffy and most of the Straw-Hat's currently are? Well... first of all we have no idea how old they were when they first entered the New World... We know Crocodile's about 38 in the current story and Moriah I think is about 50 or something but... For all we know they might've both been 17-19 when they first entered the NW just like Luffy was (I can kind of see that in Croc's case... More difficult with Moriah though... Picturing a young Moriah is kind of like picturing a smart Luffy or a kind Akainu... It's just not done...) But my point being that... Crocodile and Moriah were both Super-Rookies when they first entered the New World just like Luffy and the rest of the Worst Generation were when they first entered... Keep in mind that the definition of "Super Rookie" seems to have nothing to do with actual age, nor with which Generation you're placed in with regards to Piracy. It really seems to all be about when you chronologically became a Pirate and for how long you were active... Like the Worst Generation that Luffy was a part of has people like Luffy and Law and Kid and (possibly) Bonney who are all in their late teens/early 20's, next to guys like Apoo, Hawkins and Drake who are in their late 20s/early 30s, next to Urouge and Capone who are both clearly in their 40s. All this is confirmed roughly in SBS data as well. And none of the Worst Generation seem to have been able to use Haki before entering the New World. Though we can assume that all of them do know it now that they're in the New World and are more or less thriving. So my point being that Crocodile and Moriah's age when they first entered the New World, and were likely pounded down by the Yonko fairly quickly, doesn't really matter because it seems as though most Rookies that enter the New World at first, regardless of their bounty, haven't mastered or even know about Haki... So that's really not surprising to me.
The only other thing I can say is... When Kaido was first revealed in Chapter 795 I saw a few people commenting "Why would Moriah ever even think of going up against something like that!?" And you just have to remember that... It's really the same reason why Crocodile actually wanted to challenge Whitebeard when he first entered the New World... Moriah and Crocodile were both young, impulsive, brash, reckless Super-Rookies, both with something to prove, who wanted to make a name for themselves in the biggest ways possible so they decided to challenge the biggest, toughest pirates around and paid the price for it in both cases. I've always kind of wanted to see what the exploits of young versions of the Shichibukai and the Yonko would look like, and maybe even the Admirals if we ever get that lucky, just to see how they came to be the way they are now and if they had similar learning curves as Luffy and the Straw-Hats did in terms of getting past their obstacles and being better because of it. We'll probably get something like that I'm just not sure when.
I will say that the failures of Crocodile and Moriah in the New World really kind of makes me think that Luffy and Law have really bitten off more then they can chew by screwing with both Kaido and Big Mom. And to be honest Kid, Apoo and Hawkins have likely done the same thing by choosing to challenge Shanks but also piss of Big Mom and (maybe) Kaido :ninja: due to their own rash and impulsive natures... And I get the feeling that they're all going to get stomped because of it sooner or later. People keep saying that Luffy is going to defeat Big Mom first and then probably Kaido and then Shanks will likely be taken down by external forces (don't really feel the need to speculate on that front just yet) so the final Pirate villain will be Blackbeard but... While that will still likely hold true I really can't see Luffy taking down any of the Yonko without tremendous outside help anytime soon. Luffy challenging Big Mom and Kaido directly is effectively suicide... But he's the kind of guy who I think is willing to pick himself back up after a major loss at the hands of Yonko... And the same is likely true of Law, Kid and the rest of the Worst Generation... And that's what sets up them apart from people like Crocodile and Moriah... Just my two cents...
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
I actually totally agree that the Warlords aren't going to be disbanded just yet... To me the World Government is going to want to keep the system active for at least a little while longer... Doflamingo predicted that a major war is coming, and it seems like this is going to be a more long-lasting and prevalent war then Marineford... So the World Government is going to want strong people like Mihawk/Kuma/Hancock etc. who at least do some favors for them, mainly by knocking out Yonko fodder from what we can tell, and are at the very least not opposed to the World Government, at least not publicly... That's kind of one of the things about the Shichibukai that kind of gets overlooked from my past experiences... Part of the reason the system's there is to make it so that other active Pirates that are dangerous don't side with other potentially dangerous active pirates that are with the Yonko or the Worst Generation... Obviously that doesn't seem to work given that Doflamingo was in an Alliance with both Kaido and Law but... At the same time it seems as though in spite of Fujitora's protests to the contrary, the WG will likely continue the Shichibukai system for at least a little while longer... So they'll have to find two replacements then...
As for who the replacements will be, I still say Enel is as likely as anybody else. I still can't imagine him not showing up in the story again, and he seems like the kind of guy who'd have no problems with joining the Warlords, and he's clearly powerful enough so... That seems like a safe bet... And as for who will get the 7th spot... I really don't know, and this might be a bit out there, but I still wouldn't rule out Jack as a possibility... Obviously Jack would never be loyal to the World Government, I feel like he would only join them if Kaido ordered him to, possibly as a way of keeping tabs on them in the same way Doflamingo might've potentially... But the reason I can't get past the idea of Jack being a Shichibukai is... I wonder if maybe he was the pirate who was supposed to have cut off Admiral Zephyr's arm in the One Piece movie Z and killed his entire crew... I mean that would explain why his bounty is so ridiculously high, when you soundly defeat an Admiral then that's the kind of thing that people remember you for... And they said that the pirate who cut off Z's arm joined them... Either during the timeskip or afterwards... So maybe Jack joined once Doflamingo and Law's respective slots were open and he wanted to keep tabs on the WG as a sort of double agent... I mean, it's a little bit out there, and I get that Movie Z is non-canon but... I couldn't help but wonder if Jack was supposed to be the pirate that Oda envisioned as doing those unspeakable acts to Zephyr as opposed to Edward Weevil... Weevil just doesn't seem like that kind of guy somehow but Jack definitely does... So it's just a theory that I've had for some time now, and I'm fully prepared for it to be wrong but I've just felt ever since Jack's introduction that maybe that was what Oda was going for as opposed to Edward Weevil. Just me spit-balling personally feel free to disagree.
Enel will return to the story but other people also thought that he would be a admiral/warlord during the time skip which did not happen plus he has no bounty since he lived on skypiea then went to the moon so no need to be a warlord and he thinks that he is a god so i don't see him working under other people he might help luffy since raftel most likely had sky people so he might want to get revenge on the world govt for killing them during the 100 year war.
-
I think it's pretty much like riding a bike. It's not like either of them had amnesia. They were still fairly active in combat.
I'd allow for the possibility of Haki becoming weaker, but the user completely forgetting how to use it sounds bonkers.
Not even sure why this discussion lasted so long. Combination of them being beaten early in NW and Haki not yet being properly introduced yet is the simplest answer.
-
Crocodile could be like how Ace tried to attack Whitebeard as soon as he entered the new world he might have went after Whitebeard faster than Ace did by attacking one of Whitebeard's island to lure Whitebeard to him like a fish just like how X drake attacked Kaido's island to get Kaido to come to him. (we actually saw Whitebeard going to Ace when he was fighting Jinbe)
Moriah was defeated by Kaido as soon as he entered the new world maybe even at the first island it would have been like the Bonney vs Blackbeard fight it seems Kaido had a better trained crew they most likely did a time skip like the straw hats did before entering the new world with some of kaido''s crew haki training..
-
Just a random question, who do you guys think is the smartest shichibukai? I think its Crocodile, awesome plans and all, but then there's his bad habit of forgetting to check whether his opponents are dead or not. If a guy who gets stabbed in the chest then thrown into quicksand turns out to be alive, it is wise to make sure to… bash his brains or loop his head off during the next face off (not that I want to see that happening to Luffy).
Jimbei is rather wise (not exactly smart) imo. Doffy can be rather inconsistent in the intelligence department.
↑Biological Weaopn of Doom and Destruction
-
@le:
Just a random question, who do you guys think is the smartest shichibukai?
Definitely Doflamingo (apart from the last chapters, because the whole Birdcage was so completely stupid) He just looked bad because everything that could possibly -or even impossibly- could go wrong actually happened. But if you look at it:
-immediately after learning that something on PunkHazard happened he send out his subordinates and shortly after went there himself when it became clear that the situation is actually pretty serious
-when the SHs came to Dressrosa, he used the tournament to split them apart, had Viola keep an eye on them and send a subordinate with a strong surprise ability to neutralize their ship and anyone remaining on it
-went against the single most dangerous opponent left (with Luffy for the moment distracted by the tourney) himself and took an admiral with him
-during the later parts of the arc separated his strongest family members to protect his most important spots in the underground harbour, the arena and his palace, while keep watching the tournament himself
-kept a string puppet ready just in case of surprise attacks on him
-after everything went to hell, used Pica to cause havoc to buy time, at least tried to play his enemies against each other, while consolidating all his strenght on a single pointHe really did the most sensible thing most of the time. His largest mistake was underestimating the strenght of the SHs, especially with him apparently dont caring at all about someone like Zoro (despite him being a Supernova) and overestimating the strenght of his family (even without Sabo, did he really expected a failure like Diamante to deal with Luffy and a yonkou division commander?)
-
Definitely Doflamingo (apart from the last chapters, because the whole Birdcage was so completely stupid) He just looked bad because everything that could possibly -or even impossibly- could go wrong actually happened. But if you look at it:
-immediately after learning that something on PunkHazard happened he send out his subordinates and shortly after went there himself when it became clear that the situation is actually pretty serious
-when the SHs came to Dressrosa, he used the tournament to split them apart, had Viola keep an eye on them and send a subordinate with a strong surprise ability to neutralize their ship and anyone remaining on it
-went against the single most dangerous opponent left (with Luffy for the moment distracted by the tourney) himself and took an admiral with him
-during the later parts of the arc separated his strongest family members to protect his most important spots in the underground harbour, the arena and his palace, while keep watching the tournament himself
-kept a string puppet ready just in case of surprise attacks on him
-after everything went to hell, used Pica to cause havoc to buy time, at least tried to play his enemies against each other, while consolidating all his strenght on a single pointHe really did the most sensible thing most of the time. His largest mistake was underestimating the strenght of the SHs, especially with him apparently dont caring at all about someone like Zoro (despite him being a Supernova) and overestimating the strenght of his family (even without Sabo, did he really expected a failure like Diamante to deal with Luffy and a yonkou division commander?)
I agree with your points. I do see Doffy as a villain who makes good use of his brain. The inconsistency I mean is like:
against Smoker fatal attack launched, attempts to finish him off straight away
against Law after beating him half dead, proceeds to shoot him for humiliation, and then carries him to his castle further mock him and yada yada, giving Luffy and Law the ample time needed to retaliate
One scene he is shown to finish things nice and quick and then he plays with his food during the next :ninja:I give him some credit for his taking over of Dressrosa though, even if the citizens and ruler are considerably more idiotic than the Alabasta ones. Seriously if your very nice peace loving king starts attacking people randomly and poof a pirate shows up and says he will avenge you then proceeds to claim the throne it is pretty obvious that something fishy is going on. A citizen with a normal IQ level can see that. Its not even like they don't know about devil fruits, there's a Colosseum out there and the princess herself has one. And I don't want to talk about King riku himself because I don't want to get too off topic.
↑Biological Weaopn of Doom and Destruction
-
I would not hold killing off the good guys against him. Its a shonen manga, so thats to expect especially in OP.
For taking over DR, as you said, thats not really something special, everyone could have done that. Yes you are right, much of that plotline was retarded, but so were large parts of the whole arc. It really was not a highpoint of Oda storytelling.But in general, Doflamingo tried to avoid many typical villain tropes. He had a backup plan, kept an eye on the situation, was going himself if needed and did not just send successively stronger family members out.
-
Doffy indeed is a smart guy, he reacts well to surprise incidents and can think of ways to turn the situation back to his favour. Its just the weirdness of the Dressrosa plotline that made his character traits keep… randomly changing imo. I still like him a lot and find him a great villain.
What do you think about the others?
-
Definitely Doflamingo (apart from the last chapters, because the whole Birdcage was so completely stupid) He just looked bad because everything that could possibly -or even impossibly- could go wrong actually happened. But if you look at it:
-immediately after learning that something on PunkHazard happened he send out his subordinates and shortly after went there himself when it became clear that the situation is actually pretty serious
-when the SHs came to Dressrosa, he used the tournament to split them apart, had Viola keep an eye on them and send a subordinate with a strong surprise ability to neutralize their ship and anyone remaining on it
-went against the single most dangerous opponent left (with Luffy for the moment distracted by the tourney) himself and took an admiral with him
-during the later parts of the arc separated his strongest family members to protect his most important spots in the underground harbour, the arena and his palace, while keep watching the tournament himself
-kept a string puppet ready just in case of surprise attacks on him
-after everything went to hell, used Pica to cause havoc to buy time, at least tried to play his enemies against each other, while consolidating all his strenght on a single pointHe really did the most sensible thing most of the time. His largest mistake was underestimating the strenght of the SHs, especially with him apparently dont caring at all about someone like Zoro (despite him being a Supernova) and overestimating the strenght of his family (even without Sabo, did he really expected a failure like Diamante to deal with Luffy and a yonkou division commander?)
To be fair Doflamingo had a reason to take the Straw hats more seriously than the warlords before the time skip since they were just rookies then so it does not mean he is smarter for taking them more seriously after they took 3 warlords down Buggy,Crocodile and Moriah and Luffy got Jinbe and Crocodile to ally with him during the war.
Crocodile had a bomb that he thought was strong enough to kill the two sides fighting each other and the straw hats that were trying to stop the war.
Moriah just had to wait to sun to come out for all the people without shadows to die.
Buggy had luffy in a cage so he thought Nami had joined his crew.
Doflamingo messed up by not taking his entire crew to punk hazard after he lost contact with Vergo/Monet and would have been better going there with his crew even if he thought they would win since killing the pirate alliance as fast as possible would reduce the chance of the sad factory being damaged/destroyed which is needed to make smiles.
-
@sanji''s_dad:
Crocodile had a bomb that he thought was strong enough to kill the two sides fighting each other and the straw hats that were trying to stop the war.
Moriah just had to wait to sun to come out for all the people without shadows to die.
Buggy had luffy in a cage so he thought Nami had joined his crew.
To be fair, as much of the backup plans he had, who could have predicted that a falcon will pull the bomb out and fly away. I still don't get the point of the bomb till today tho. Someone enlighten me please.
What Moriah did was rather stupid imo. He could just stay alive for a few minutes and he will get complete victory, but instead he had to do that Shadow Asgard thing.
If you think about it, Buggy IS a threatening villain. Name me another villain who nearly executed luffy. He acts goofy but he's a bit psycho in a way (killing someone just because he heard words related to 'nose'). Sometimes I wonder whether Buggy is actually a scheming magnificent bastard who makes his plans seem like mere luck to fool everyone.
↑Biological Weaopn of Doom and Destruction
-
@le:
To be fair, as much of the backup plans he had, who could have predicted that a falcon will pull the bomb out and fly away. I still don't get the point of the bomb till today tho. Someone enlighten me please.
Bomb obliterates everyone who could pose trouble. Nobody suspects Crocodile is the bad guy. Crocodile wins.
That's the gist of it.
-
@le:
Just a random question, who do you guys think is the smartest shichibukai?
Croc without hesitation.
-
@le:
Just a random question, who do you guys think is the smartest shichibukai?
Hard to say. Some of them haven't really had an opportunity to show off intelligence.
We really can only gauge Croc and Do becaue of the scheming they did in their arcs. All the rest don't have anything other than superficial appearances from one-off events, conflicts and day-to-day life.
Like Kuma, we have no idea how smart he is, but we know he is capable of long term planning even beyond his own control.
-
@sanji''s_dad:
Doflamingo messed up by not taking his entire crew to punk hazard after he lost contact with Vergo/Monet and would have been better going there with his crew even if he thought they would win since killing the pirate alliance as fast as possible would reduce the chance of the sad factory being damaged/destroyed which is needed to make smiles.
Taking his entire crew to Punk Hazard would be impossible considering that it's an 1-day travel between the islands. Doula only got there in hours because of his own powers that no one else in his crew have.
Not to mention doing so would've let his factory defenseless for the Straw Hats to take it down.
Conclusion: dumbest move ever.
-
His mistake was sending Baby and Buffalo on their own first and expecting they will take care of everything quickly.
I expected they were a lot stronger and was pretty hyped, but then Franky nooberized them on his own.
-
Doffy's stupidest move was blindly trusting Violet.
She was the one he should keep under tight grasp and never allow much liberty, but not only his whole plan against the alliance was heavily dependent of her ability, she was allowed to move on her own. I mean, seriously, wtf!? It's like he forgot under which circumstances they met.Doflamingo believed Violet would keep him informed of the SH moves. She was his trumph making him sure that he wouldn't fall victim to the SH unpredictability. Problem is: Violet didn't even need to betray him openly to be his ruin, she simply needed to not inform him of what was happening everywhere and keep him ignorant to everything.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I realize how vital Violet was to Doflamingo's downfall (and how much he was relying on her giving him the proper information. I mean, it's not like she even had to betray him openly, she could just remain quite about what the SH were doing and he would never know until it was too late - just like she was doing with "Operation SOP").
! If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, the SH wouldn't have caught Caesar in Green Bit and Doflamingo would have rescued him successfully.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, he would be aware of the dwarves moving to the underground port and would have been able to protect Sugar. Meaning the SH and Law would be fighting alone without the help of those in the tournament and human!Kyros.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, he would know Luffy was not in the Colisseum anymore and the Lucy in there was a substitute.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, Mansherry wouldn't have been rescued and therefore would be able to nullify any damage caused by the alliance to the port, the factory, his officers and himself.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, Sugar would have successfully turned Luffy (and probably Law) into a toy, meaning Doflamingo wouldn't even need to fight them.
! If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, basically, he would have crushed the alliance without any effort. -
Trusting Violet and leaving only one officer guarding Sugar, I mean, if was Luffy, or Law, to disable Sugar, Trebol wouldn't have prevented her to faint as well. I know Luffy and Law never knew about Sugar and her ability, but if you have a plan during the last ten years depending only on her, at least defend it well.
-
Well, Trebol did his job pretty well. That was still before he became completely useless.
Couldn't have expected that a grown woman, who mercilessly turned thousands of people into toys, turning their existence into a form of nightmare, would faint after seeing an agonized face. Guess nobody ever died in front of her or something?
-
No, he didn't. He was shown to be completely unable to deal with non-standard situations in a proper way. Like when he threw the ship to Sugar's place.
Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
-
@Bartholemew:
No, he didn't. He was shown to be completely unable to deal with non-standard situations in a proper way. Like when he threw the ship to Sugar's place.
Well it worked, didn't it? :ninja:
-
Are Shichibukai, Admirals and Yonko on the same level of strength?
-
Are Shichibukai, Admirals and Yonko on the same level of strength?
warlords were made to help counter their power since the marines were not enough to beat them at the time and each warlord,admiral,yonko have different levels of power.
whitebeard was old and his strongest crew members worried to much about him in the war to focus on their own fights. -
The Shichibukai was created to counter balance the power of pirates x power of the marines. Dumb move by the WG, since only two of them can be considered "loyal", and one of them is a machine now. Most of them just use the sichibukai title to do their shit while getting no attention from the marines.
-
so basically Admirals+Warlords=Emperor?
-
so basically Admirals+Warlords=Emperor?
No, just 2 admirals would be enough to defeat 1 Yonkou, Marines alone can defeat 1 Yonkou and his crew, Shichibukai and their crews could defeat 1 Yonkou and his crew. So Marines+Shichibukai=3 yonkous, more or less.
-
No, just 2 admirals would be enough to defeat 1 Yonkou, Marines alone can defeat 1 Yonkou and his crew, Shichibukai and their crews could defeat 1 Yonkou and his crew. So Marines+Shichibukai=3 yonkous, more or less.
If that would be the case, the Yonkou should've been beaten now
-
If that would be the case, the Yonkou should've been beaten now
But that is the case.
Garp and Sengoku>Whitebeard
Akainu>Marco
Aokiji>Jozu
Kizaru>Vista
Few strongest Vice admirals>Ace
Countless other Vice Admirals, Rear Admirals, Commodores and Captains >>> the rest of WB's crewAnd I'm talking here just about Marines and Shichibukai, who knows how much power the entire WG has, There are 5 Gorosei, secret organisations (like CP0, CP9…), police forces, Prison wardens, bodyguards, Armies of 170+ nations under the WG, who knows maybe even WG land army, and lets not even mention that they print the money, and could hire the best mercenaries in the world. There's a reason why WG controls the world, and Yonkous control just relatively small patches of Grand line.
So why don't they kill Yonkous?
Because pirates are very elusive, if they are confronted with a force greater than themselves, they'll just run away. And it's not like WG doesn't kill yonkous, just 2 years ago, they killed one, but even when they do, someone else just takes their place. (well technically BB killed him, but when the war started he was a shichibukai, so he should have fought for the WG in a first place). Also, Yonkous are keeping the order in the new world, and once they kill one, that produces chaos, just like it was super chaotic when WB died. Guys on the top like to have order and stability below them.Second, even more important point is that WG needs their top tier guys to be spread around the Earth more or less evenly, so they could control the entire planet. If they summoned all the strong guys into the new world at the same time, and then played tag and/or hide and seek with yonkous, imagine what would pirates, revolutionaries and bandits do to the rest of the world.
-
There are **5 Gorosei,
They're just political figureheads and representatives of the nobles.
Also the marines by themselves can't take down a yonkou. In the fight against whitebeard they needed the shichibukai just to cut even. You're vastly underestimating yonkou and vastly overestimating the marines.**
-
Shichibukai > Pirates
Admirals > Shichibukai
Yonkou > Admirals (unless your Whitebeard:ninja:)Am I right, or am I missing something?
-
@sanji''s_dad:
warlords were made to help counter their power since the marines were not enough to beat them at the time and each warlord,admiral,yonko have different levels of power.
whitebeard was old and his strongest crew members worried to much about him in the war to focus on their own fights.Warlords were made to cut the inflow of new pirates into NW and reduce the number of potential new allies to emperors and to fight for WG in case of conflict against an emperor. If new pirates were to sail to NW freely, the balance would shift to emperors' side with time.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also the marines by themselves can't take down a yonkou. In the fight against whitebeard they needed the shichibukai just to cut even. You're vastly underestimating yonkou and vastly overestimating the marines.
That's not exactly true. Because, marines won. Both of their original objectives were completed and they would have obliterated most of the pirates if it weren't for Shanks' intervention.
And we're talking about Whitebeard pirates. Who knows how other emperors would compare.
-
you cannot say about wb pirates being week when they fought a war in complete disadvantage from beginning to end and nearly won
-
They're just political figureheads and representatives of the nobles.
Also the marines by themselves can't take down a yonkou. In the fight against whitebeard they needed the shichibukai just to cut even. You're vastly underestimating yonkou and vastly overestimating the marines.
They are obviously fighters, and not just regular politicians, we can see that from their design, and since we have witnessed over the years a strong correlation between rank and fighting power in the OP world, this makes it very likely that Gorosei are admiral+ level.
Granted we don't know how strong they really are, but there's a high possibility that they really are super strong.-Garp and Sengoku>Whitebeard
-Akainu>Marco
-Aokiji>Jozu
-Kizaru>Vista
-Few strongest Vice admirals>Ace
Countless other Vice Admirals, Rear Admirals, Commodores and Captains >>> the rest of WB's crewWhich one of these points to you disagree with exactly?
Marines won in that war, they did not cut even, in fact WB never even intended to win that war, his plan was to rescue Ace and to make sure his nakamas escape to safety.
-
Heck it wasn't even they who killed WB. It was Teach and his boys.
-
@.access:
Doffy's stupidest move was blindly trusting Violet.
She was the one he should keep under tight grasp and never allow much liberty, but not only his whole plan against the alliance was heavily dependent of her ability, she was allowed to move on her own. I mean, seriously, wtf!? It's like he forgot under which circumstances they met.Doflamingo believed Violet would keep him informed of the SH moves. She was his trumph making him sure that he wouldn't fall victim to the SH unpredictability. Problem is: Violet didn't even need to betray him openly to be his ruin, she simply needed to not inform him of what was happening everywhere and keep him ignorant to everything.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I realize how vital Violet was to Doflamingo's downfall (and how much he was relying on her giving him the proper information. I mean, it's not like she even had to betray him openly, she could just remain quite about what the SH were doing and he would never know until it was too late - just like she was doing with "Operation SOP").
! If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, the SH wouldn't have caught Caesar in Green Bit and Doflamingo would have rescued him successfully.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, he would be aware of the dwarves moving to the underground port and would have been able to protect Sugar. Meaning the SH and Law would be fighting alone without the help of those in the tournament and human!Kyros.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, he would know Luffy was not in the Colisseum anymore and the Lucy in there was a substitute.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, Mansherry wouldn't have been rescued and therefore would be able to nullify any damage caused by the alliance to the port, the factory, his officers and himself.
If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, Sugar would have successfully turned Luffy (and probably Law) into a toy, meaning Doflamingo wouldn't even need to fight them.
! If Violet was loyal to Doflamingo, basically, he would have crushed the alliance without any effort.I don't think it was even about Violet being loyal to him, but rather having the courage to stand against him. I'm sure Doula would rather have the power of omniscience with him than not.
Because really, she had no reason to trust Luffy and Co. either. She was actually doing her job of messing with the Straw Hats' plans properly regardless of loyalty, but Sanji ended up convincing her that the Straw Hats were good people.
-
Heck it wasn't even they who killed WB. It was Teach and his boys.
I just wrote that up there:
"And it's not like WG doesn't kill yonkous, just 2 years ago, they killed one, but even when they do, someone else just takes their place. (well technically BB killed him, but when the war started he was a shichibukai, so he should have fought for the WG in a first place)."
-
They are obviously fighters, and not just regular politicians, we can see that from their design, and since we have witnessed over the years a strong correlation between rank and fighting power in the OP world, this makes it very likely that Gorosei are admiral+ level.
Granted we don't know how strong they really are, but there's a high possibility that they really are super strong.-Garp and Sengoku>Whitebeard
-Akainu>Marco
-Aokiji>Jozu
-Kizaru>Vista
-Few strongest Vice admirals>Ace
Countless other Vice Admirals, Rear Admirals, Commodores and Captains >>> the rest of WB's crewWhich one of these points to you disagree with exactly?
Marines won in that war, they did not cut even, in fact WB never even intended to win that war, his plan was to rescue Ace and to make sure his nakamas escape to safety.
Considering that Oars Jr. by himself defeated a giant Vice-Admiral with ease, I don't think so. And considering how easily Sabo crushed Bastille with the Mera Mera no Mi, I don't think Ace would have problems with Vice-Admirals either.
Remember, Whitebeard had 16 Commanders who could fight even with some of the Shichibukai (Curiel could fight off Moriah for example). And this is not counting the 43 New World Captains who are under Whitebeard. Those are potentially 59 Vice-Admiral level fighters, as every NW Captain was infamous on their own.
In comparison, the Marines only had 16 Vice-Admirals during the war. This was confirmed in a SBS.
Marines won because of turf advantage and hostage-taking. The gyoncorde walls set up by Sengoku were essential to taking away a large chunk of Whitebeard's forces. They made sure to have the upper hand before the war even started.
If the Marines had tried to fight Whitebeard at one of his turfs, you can bet the Marines would've gotten crushed.
-
I think even on WBs land marines win.
Because marines had Sengoku, 3 admirals, garp, tsuru, mihawk, as in 7 potential admiral level guys with 5 of them confirmed.
The only one from the WB s crew that was on that level or a bit above was WB himsef. Let s say Marco too aldo he is more about defense then offense. -
@uniaka:
I think even on WBs land marines win.
Because marines had Sengoku, 3 admirals, garp, tsuru, mihawk, as in 7 potential admiral level guys with 5 of them confirmed.
The only one from the WB s crew that was on that level or a bit above was WB himsef. Marco was second but he wasn t beating kizaru.This is not counting the Warlords, who are necessary exactly because the Marines alone can't take an Emperor.
-
Considering that Oars Jr. by himself defeated a giant Vice-Admiral with ease, I don't think so. And considering how easily Sabo crushed Bastille with the Mera Mera no Mi, I don't think Ace would have problems with Vice-Admirals either.
Remember, Whitebeard had 16 Commanders who could fight even with some of the Shichibukai (Curiel could fight off Moriah for example). And this is not counting the 43 New World Captains who are under Whitebeard. Those are potentially 59 Vice-Admiral level fighters, as every NW Captain was infamous on their own.
In comparison, the Marines only had 16 Vice-Admirals during the war. This was confirmed in a SBS.
Marines won because of turf advantage and hostage-taking. The gyoncorde walls set up by Sengoku were essential to taking away a large chunk of Whitebeard's forces. They made sure to have the upper hand before the war even started.
If the Marines had tried to fight Whitebeard at one of his turfs, you can bet the Marines would've gotten crushed.
Plus the fact that the marines were to scared to take a old and sick Whitebeard on since Akainu had to trick one of whitebeard's allies into stabbing whitebeard to weaken him even more which stopped the whitebeard pirates focusing on their own fights since they worried to much about whitebeard. e.g Marco and Jozu.
-
I seriously wonder who in the WG came out with the shichibukai idea. Its ridiculous. Pirates are pirates, they won't side with the government just because they have a cool title.
It causes more harm and more problems than actually benefiting the WG. How the hell did they believe that people like Croc, Doffy and BB will play by their rules. So far the only shichibukai who didn't stir much trouble are Buggy, Mihawk and (technically) Moria.
Well it makes the story interesting so….↑Biological Weaopn of Doom and Destruction
-
Heck it wasn't even they who killed WB. It was Teach and his boys.
It would have ended up the same. By the time BB got there, WB was already half dead. BB wasn't a deciding factor, he just cut in and stole the glory.
-
Akainu was more the guy that killed him, with half a head and that big hole in him, likely WB would die short after from wounds like that.
-
@le:
I seriously wonder who in the WG came out with the shichibukai idea. Its ridiculous. Pirates are pirates, they won't side with the government just because they have a cool title.
It causes more harm and more problems than actually benefiting the WG. How the hell did they believe that people like Croc, Doffy and BB will play by their rules. So far the only shichibukai who didn't stir much trouble are Buggy, Mihawk and (technically) Moria.
Well it makes the story interesting so….If you remember Luffy's flash back they were testing the idea out with bluejam pirates since he wanted to be a noble but once they did not need him anymore they left him out in the fire to burn (he did live but he only had one leg) once they don't need the warlords they will do the same thing they could even hold a warlord meeting but only call 1 of them at a time then they could fight against just one instead of 7 of them that way they don't have more former warlords going around if they disband them.
-
It would have ended up the same. By the time BB got there, WB was already half dead. BB wasn't a deciding factor, he just cut in and stole the glory.
if bb didnt come whitebeard sunk marineford
The face of a Straw Hat.
